1995 Balimore Stallions

[argonaut11xx]

Today on TSN radio with Dave Naylor it was suggested that the 1995 Baltimore Stallions were the best team ever, in CFL history??!!!???

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bs-sp-baltimore-stallions-reunion-0727-20150726-story.html

I think the argument is fair, but my vote would be the 1997 Argonauts. (the 1995 stallions(all american) not far behind)

[AngeloV]

As painful as it is to say this, I have to go with the'81 Eskimos.

[OV Argo]

The Stallions were a very good CFL team (led by an all-time winning CFL HC in the Don) and went to 2 straight GCs - winning just one ; but sorry - they ain`t even close to an all-time great CFL team IMO; that would be more like the Esks during that Dynasty (early part), the 68-69 Ottawa Rough Riders (who won back to back GCs and were led by an all-time great CFL QB), the steel curtain D Ticats teams of the late 50s and into the 60s, or the Flutie led Argos of 96 & 97 (who would have crushed the Stallions IMO).

If you picked the TEN greatest CFL GC winning teams, the Stallions should not be on that list IMO - they had a mediocre to sub-par CFL calibre receiving corps, and Tracy Ham was a vet good running QB, but hardly close to a top 10 all-time CFL QB talent that other top GC teams would feature. They won the one GC with big plays on special teams and a tough D, but the game was played in a wind tunnel lousy conditions; they lost in their other GC appearence to a pretty decent but hardly great BC team.

Not at all surprised that a dofus like Naylor would think this ( or was it someone else who opined that on the show with himÉ) - regardless - how does this clueless clown get to comment on Canadian football when clearly he knows nothing about the game - about the worst CFL `reporter i can think of = ÉÉÉ

[argonaut11xx]

The 1995 Stallions sent 14 players to the NFL the next season, and many others had all-star CFL careers.

[argolio]

Propping up Champion A as being definitively better than Champion B is so subjective and generally unprovable, even more so with teams from different eras. Take a team like the '84 Bombers. They had ten CFL all-stars (four more than any other team) and playoff winning margins of 35, 17, and 30 points. Yet they finished second in the West with an 11-4-1 record. Great team or not?

Baltimore likely would have been a two-time champion if not for that controversial Ray Alexander catch in 1994. In today's game, that would have been ruled incomplete.

[OV Argo]

[QUOTE=argolio;65059]Propping up Champion A as being definitively better than Champion B is so subjective and generally unprovable, even more so with teams from different eras. Take a team like the '84 Bombers. They had ten CFL all-stars (four more than any other team) and playoff winning margins of 35, 17, and 30 points. Yet they finished second in the West with an 11-4-1 record. Great team or not?

Baltimore likely would have been a two-time champion if not for that controversial Ray Alexander catch in 1994. In today's game, that would have been ruled incomplete.[/QUOTE

With video review today - that Alexander catch would have been ruled good, or else good via PI as there was blatant pass interference on him on the play.

The 84 Bombers are another example of a way better GC team than the Stallions, to go along with some of the others I mentioned.

[jerrym]

[QUOTE=argolio;65059]

Baltimore likely would have been a two-time champion if not for that controversial Ray Alexander catch in 1994. In today's game, that would have been ruled incomplete.

I agree on the catch but I still would pick the 96-97 Argos as the best team ever.

[Will]

Please note that I have noticed inaccuracies in the totals in the past.

Like many other Tracy Ham-led teams (except in Toronto) the Stallions won as a result of a powerful running game (in this instance Mike Pringle) that featured Ham's running skills. The receiving corps for the '95 Stallions was led by Chris Armstrong at 1,111 yards, however, the second leading receiver registered 532 receiving yards. The Stallions rushed for 2,754 (153 YPG) and with an all-American OL were able to oppose their will. Their passing offense only registered 3,888 yards (216 YPG) but with such a dominant running game it really didn't matter. I don't have TOP statistics, but I suspect their quite high. The Stallions were also dominant against the run allowing only 1424 yards (79 YPG) again with a great front four featuring Elfrid Payton and Jerald Baylis among others. The Stallions did allow 5084 passing yards (282 YPG) which is a bit higher than I expected.

The 1997 Argonauts featured a 1000 yard rusher in Robert Drummond (1134 yards) and as a team rushed for 2088 yards (116 YPG). The passing attack led by Doug Flutie featured 3 1000 yard receivers (Mitchell, Clemons and Masotti) and threw for 5698 (317 YPG). On defense the Argos allowed 1468 yards (82 YPG) while allowing 3721 passing yards (207 YPG). Both teams were 15-3 but the question will always be how much of an advantage the Stallions had with the import rules. It should also be noted that the Argos also had historically bad teams in Winnipeg and Hamilton respectively, but Montreal was pretty competitive. I think the '97 Argos matchup with the 95 Stallions pretty well, but who knows.

The 1984 Blue Bombers had to beat a very good BC Lions team to get to that Grey Cup as well. Their sack totals were 75 for the entire season, which is ridiculous. I've noticed that sack totals were much higher in the 1980's. Any specific reason for this aside from the s-word?

[OV Argo]

Please note that I have noticed inaccuracies in the totals in the past.

Like many other Tracy Ham-led teams (except in Toronto) the Stallions won as a result of a powerful running game (in this instance Mike Pringle) that featured Ham's running skills. The receiving corps for the '95 Stallions was led by Chris Armstrong at 1,111 yards, however, the second leading receiver registered 532 receiving yards. The Stallions rushed for 2,754 (153 YPG) and with an all-American OL were able to oppose their will. Their passing offense only registered 3,888 yards (216 YPG) but with such a dominant running game it really didn't matter. I don't have TOP statistics, but I suspect their quite high. The Stallions were also dominant against the run allowing only 1424 yards (79 YPG) again with a great front four featuring Elfrid Payton and Jerald Baylis among others. The Stallions did allow 5084 passing yards (282 YPG) which is a bit higher than I expected.

The 1997 Argonauts featured a 1000 yard rusher in Robert Drummond (1134 yards) and as a team rushed for 2088 yards (116 YPG). The passing attack led by Doug Flutie featured 3 1000 yard receivers (Mitchell, Clemons and Masotti) and threw for 5698 (317 YPG). On defense the Argos allowed 1468 yards (82 YPG) while allowing 3721 passing yards (207 YPG). Both teams were 15-3 but the question will always be how much of an advantage the Stallions had with the import rules. It should also be noted that the Argos also had historically bad teams in Winnipeg and Hamilton respectively, but Montreal was pretty competitive. I think the '97 Argos matchup with the 95 Stallions pretty well, but who knows.

The 1984 Blue Bombers had to beat a very good BC Lions team to get to that Grey Cup as well. Their sack totals were 75 for the entire season, which is ridiculous. I've noticed that sack totals were much higher in the 1980's. Any specific reason for this aside from the s-word?

The Stallions supposedly oh so superior all American O-line got basically man-handled by the BC front 7 (featuring all NIs on the D-line) in the 94 GC game - so, they somehow were not just able to impose their will that game = go figure; and the supposed oh so superior advantage of being able to go all import was vastly over-rated and over-stated in those CFL times = typical Canadian inferiority complex stuff: NONE of those American CFL teams featured a single Canadian player in their line-ups ... because none, zero, zip ,nadda Canadian players got try-outs with those teams. The rosters of those American CFL teams, outside of the top 10 to 15 starters or so (more on Baltimore) featured players who were average to mediocre at best and nowhere near as good as some of the Canadian talent in the league .... who those American teams were ignorant of or chose to discount as guys who could have helped their rosters.

[jerrym]

NONE of those American CFL teams featured a single Canadian player in their line-ups ... because none, zero, zip ,nadda Canadian players got try-outs with those teams. The rosters of those American CFL teams, outside of the top 10 to 15 starters or so (more on Baltimore) featured players who were average to mediocre at best and nowhere near as good as some of the Canadian talent in the league .... who those American teams were ignorant of or chose to discount as guys who could have helped their rosters.

According to a Don Mathews interview that I remember, Don did try to sign Jeff Fairholm, who had gained 1,393 yards for the Riders in 1993, for the Baltimore Stallions but he signed with the Argos. So your statement remains correct. Jeff would go on to play three years for the Argos where Don coached him in 1996.

http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/f/fairholm_jeff.htm

[AngeloV]

NONE of those American CFL teams featured a single Canadian player in their line-ups ... because none, zero, zip ,nadda Canadian players got try-outs with those teams. The rosters of those American CFL teams, outside of the top 10 to 15 starters or so (more on Baltimore) featured players who were average to mediocre at best and nowhere near as good as some of the Canadian talent in the league .... who those American teams were ignorant of or chose to discount as guys who could have helped their rosters.

How many really good Canadians were actually available? All the good ones were already likely under contract when the Stallions started. I would say the players that you deemed to be mediocre was a lot better than the Canadians that were actually available to them. Personally, I think it's a good thing the US expansion didn't last longer. The unfair playing field would have gotten worse and worse, and I think the only option to level the playing field would have been to get rid of the Canadian quota for Canadian based teams as well. That would have been the death of the league, because then it would truly have become a 2nd tier American league.

[OV Argo]

How many really good Canadians were actually available? All the good ones were already likely under contract when the Stallions started. I would say the players that you deemed to be mediocre was a lot better than the Canadians that were actually available to them. Personally, I think it's a good thing the US expansion didn't last longer. The unfair playing field would have gotten worse and worse, and I think the only option to level the playing field would have been to get rid of the Canadian quota for Canadian based teams as well. That would have been the death of the league, because then it would truly have become a 2nd tier American league.


So - the US based CFL teams of that time were able to sign all sorts of proven vet American CFL players but not a single Canadian was available or courted by them ??? And there are plenty of other avenues to acquire players - trades, undrafted FAs, other teams' TC cuts. The American teams gleefully ignored even trying out Canadian players in favor of their guys; the same would go for most other American run Canadian based CFL teams if they could get away with. Kinda sad that the "radical" league features thinking tipped so far that way and zero, nothing to counter it - where's Teddy Morris - Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgoooooos !!!

[jerrym]

So - the US based CFL teams of that time were able to sign all sorts of proven vet American CFL players but not a single Canadian was available or courted by them ??? And there are plenty of other avenues to acquire players - trades, undrafted FAs, other teams' TC cuts. The American teams gleefully ignored even trying out Canadian players in favor of their guys; the same would go for most other American run Canadian based CFL teams if they could get away with. Kinda sad that the "radical" league features thinking tipped so far that way and zero, nothing to counter it - where's Teddy Morris - Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgoooooos !!!

IIRC, Mathews, in the interview in which he mentioned his attempt to sign Jeff Fairholm for Baltimore, there was also a problem of trying to get Canadians CFLers to play in the US because of work laws restricting foreigners working in the US, although he said this was not impossible it did create extra hassles. While the Free Trade Agreement with the US makes working in the US easier, it's not a wide open entry process. I have heard of fairly popular Canadian rock bands not being given permits to play for even a weekend for example.

[zontar]

If I recall Balt was extremely lucky to get past WPG in the playoffs that year. Eskimoes dynasty was the best. Full stop.

[Argo57]

If I recall Balt was extremely lucky to get past WPG in the playoffs that year. Eskimoes dynasty was the best. Full stop.

Those Eskimo teams were so dominant they can't be overlooked, however the 96-97 Argonaut World Championship teams had it all, great defence, special teams, Doug Flutie, Pinball and Robert Drummond.
Hard to top those lineups!!

[zontar]

Those Eskimo teams were so dominant they can't be overlooked, however the 96-97 Argonaut World Championship teams had it all, great defence, special teams, Doug Flutie, Pinball and Robert Drummond.
Hard to top those lineups!!

Drummond was very under rated. At his peak he was unstoppable.

[AngeloV]

Those Eskimo teams were so dominant they can't be overlooked, however the 96-97 Argonaut World Championship teams had it all, great defence, special teams, Doug Flutie, Pinball and Robert Drummond.
Hard to top those lineups!!

'81 Esks..14-1-1 and though they got off to a bad start in that Grey Cup came back and won. To me, that is the most dominating team I have seen.

[Argo57]

'81 Esks..14-1-1 and though they got off to a bad start in that Grey Cup came back and won. To me, that is the most dominating team I have seen.

No arguments with that assessment Angelo.

[paulwoods13]

'81 Esks..14-1-1 and though they got off to a bad start in that Grey Cup came back and won. To me, that is the most dominating team I have seen.

They were 8-1-1 against teams that could actually play that season, and 6-0 against Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa. I grant the Esks dynasty was amazing but I think that particular year, with one-third of the league completely incompetent, may not have been their best squad. I'd make a case for 1982, when they won in 10 games in a row to close out the season and crushed a very strong Argonauts team in the Grey Cup.

[ArgoRavi]

They were 8-1-1 against teams that could actually play that season, and 6-0 against Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa. I grant the Esks dynasty was amazing but I think that particular year, with one-third of the league completely incompetent, may not have been their best squad. I'd make a case for 1982, when they won in 10 games in a row to close out the season and crushed a very strong Argonauts team in the Grey Cup.

Maybe we could combine the 1981 and 1982 Esks. I know that you remember, Paul, how many were counting the Esks out in '82 when they were 3-5, including that memorable early August loss to the Argos in Toronto. Of course, they never lost again after that.

[argolio]

With video review today - that Alexander catch would have been ruled good, or else good via PI as there was blatant pass interference on him on the play.lol, nice job coming up with that right out of thin air.


If I recall Balt was extremely lucky to get past WPG in the playoffs that year. Eskimoes dynasty was the best. Full stop.I don't think anyone is arguing that as far as dynasties go.

Maybe we could combine the 1981 and 1982 Esks. I know that you remember, Paul, how many were counting the Esks out in '82 when they were 3-5, including that memorable early August loss to the Argos in Toronto. Of course, they never lost again after that.Most people did think they were dead after starting 3-5.

[OV Argo]

lol, nice job coming up with that right out of thin air.

I don't think anyone is arguing that as far as dynasties go.
Most people did think they were dead after starting 3-5.

I've watched the replay of that 94 GC game several times pal - why don't you try reviewing it and tell me there was no PI on that play - afraid of thin air ?

[AngeloV]

They were 8-1-1 against teams that could actually play that season, and 6-0 against Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa. I grant the Esks dynasty was amazing but I think that particular year, with one-third of the league completely incompetent, may not have been their best squad. I'd make a case for 1982, when they won in 10 games in a row to close out the season and crushed a very strong Argonauts team in the Grey Cup.

LOL..you throw 8-1-1 out there as if it isn't that impressive. That's still a better winning percentage than the either of the Flutie led Argos teams had (.85 to .833).

[argonaut11xx]

My first Grey Cup was 1980, and that Eskimo team just CRUSHED, Dave Marlers pussy cats, at Exhibition Stadium, I have to admit i cheered for JC Watts in the 1981 cup.

Was also at the 1982 Grey Cup, and as good as that Eskimo team was, the rain that started around half time, and Jim Germany were the difference in that game. If the damn sun stayed out, i still firmly believe the Argo's would have won in 1982.

[paulwoods13]

LOL..you throw 8-1-1 out there as if it isn't that impressive. That's still a better winning percentage than the either of the Flutie led Argos teams had (.85 to .833).

8-1-1 is an excellent winning percentage, but I doubt they'd have won all season at that clip if they didn't have six free spaces on the bingo card. Not saying 1981 Esks weren't great -- they obviously were -- but IMO the 1982 team was stronger overall. Deciding factor is they dominated a strong Argo team in the Grey Cup rather than almost get upset by a weak Ottawa team.

[Will]

Brian Kelly's had a ridiculous 1981 season (74 catches, 1665 yards and 11 TD's)

[ArgoRavi]

Brian Kelly's had a ridiculous 1981 season (74 catches, 1665 yards and 11 TD's)

As good as Kelly's 1981 season was, Terry Greer's 1983 season was nothing short of phenomenal. IIRC, he had 2003 yards receiving in a 16 game schedule.

[Argo57]

My first Grey Cup was 1980, and that Eskimo team just CRUSHED, Dave Marlers pussy cats, at Exhibition Stadium, I have to admit i cheered for JC Watts in the 1981 cup.

Was also at the 1982 Grey Cup, and as good as that Eskimo team was, the rain that started around half time, and Jim Germany were the difference in that game. If the damn sun stayed out, i still firmly believe the Argo's would have won in 1982.

I always cheered for the Western teams in the Grey Cups back then as I couldn't stand Montreal, Hamilton and Ottawa while the Argonauts never made the playoffs.
Pat Marsden drove me nuts with his incessant love of everything Ottawa Rough Riders (Tom Clements, and Tony Gabriel) in particular which was of course the precursor of Rod Black's man crush of Anthony Calvillo which actually made me put down a bag of Doritos once to go heave.

[Will]

As good as Kelly's 1981 season was, Terry Greer's 1983 season was nothing short of phenomenal. IIRC, he had 2003 yards receiving in a 16 game schedule.

That number is correct. It was on 113 catches.

[paulwoods13]

As good as Kelly's 1981 season was, Terry Greer's 1983 season was nothing short of phenomenal. IIRC, he had 2003 yards receiving in a 16 game schedule.

Kelly also had a great season in 1983: 104 catches, 1,812 yards.

[Will]

Kelly also had a great season in 1983: 104 catches, 1,812 yards.

Kelly retired after the 1987 Grey Cup win at age 31. He had 68 receptions for 1,626 yards and 13 TD's in his final season!

[AngeloV]

Yup, Howdy Doodie was a great receiver. I never admitted it at the time, but that was because I was very jealous of the Eskimos success. I remember sitting in Ivor Wynne the day they honoured that years HOF inductees. I joked to my buddy out loud that I was going to boo Kelly. The man sitting directly in front of me then turned around...and it looked like Brian Kelly about 30 years older. Turned out to be his father. Man, was that embarrassing.

[ArgoRavi]

Yeah, Kelly has to be put into the conversation with the likes of Terry Greer and Merv Fernandez for best CFL receiver ever. Kelly's performances in both the 1982 and 1987 Grey Cups went a long way in preventing the Argos from winning two more championships.

[Gill The Thrill]

If I recall Balt was extremely lucky to get past WPG in the playoffs that year. Eskimoes dynasty was the best. Full stop.You're talking about the '94 Eastern Final...played in a cold windy (no kidding) day in Winnipeg. That was a 14-12 win and probably one of the best low-scoring CFL games ever. Very well played, very intense defense on both sides. Reminded of the 1990 NFC championship between the 49'ers and Giants, another of the great low-scoring defensive games albeit the 4 down variety with the Giants winning on the road by 2, 15-13, just as the Stallions had.

Going back to the Division Finals in 1994, most fans remember the McManus to Darren Flutie catch in the last play of the game to give the Leos the Western Championship in the snow in Calgary, but that Eastern Final earlier between Baltimore and Winnipeg was a much underated game imo.

[Gill The Thrill]

As for the best team ever...historically those tough Ticat defenses from the 60's anchored by Big Ang were excellent. They were before my time. Read that the Cats did not give up a TD in their final 6 regular season games or in the playoffs in 1967, as they destroyed Saskatchewan...(who only had Ron Lancaster and were the defending champs) 24-1 in the Grey Cup game.

Don't know if it was Ralph Sazio or Jim Trimble who coached the Ticats that year, but I do remember watching the game on Youtube and that Ray Malavasi was the Defensive Coordinator. He would go on to coach the Los Angeles Rams in Super Bowl XIV on January 1980, losing to the Steelers.

In my lifetime, I'll go with the '81 Eskimos. In a good division with a great Ray Jauch coached Winnipeg Blue Bombers team, possibly as good as their 1984 Grey Cup team. The Eskimos rolled to a 14-1-1 record beating a good BC Lions team that were game in the WF 22-16. They also came back from what would have been a monumental upset to win the '81 Grey Cup.

I will also favour that team over the back-to-back 15-3 Argo teams of 96-97 and the Stallions because it was a more truly Canadian Football team with 10 Canadian starters and 15 imports, not the expanded American rosters of today. Canadians played vital roles on both sides of the ball for those Eskimo teams. Neil Lumsden solidified the power running game and could catch out of the backfield and Dave Fennell was a homegrown talent from Edmonton and a household name for any fan of the CFL in those days...just as popular as American Dan Keply on that outstanding defense.

[Argo57]

Kelly retired after the 1987 Grey Cup win at age 31. He had 68 receptions for 1,626 yards and 13 TD's in his final season!

Didn't realize Kelly was that young when he retired, surely could have played 2-3 more years at a high level, the guy was clutch and played with class.

[argolio]

I've watched the replay of that 94 GC game several times pal - why don't you try reviewing it and tell me there was no PI on that play - afraid of thin air ?Just watched the game. There was DEFINITELY no P.I. by Irv Smith on that play.

But I have to re-evaluate my opinion of that play. Before I had the impression that there might have been a case to be made for a legitimate reception, but upon further review, and using 1994 standards, that was a really horrible call. Alexander never had control, and it was an obvious incomplete pass. It was also second and seven at the time, which would have forced the Lions to punt from around their own 40, and who knows what would have happened after that (possibly overtime).

Also, there were plenty of worthy MVP candidates, but I thought Henry Newby had the best game of anyone on either team.

[Gill The Thrill]

Just watched the game. There was DEFINITELY no P.I. by Irv Smith on that play.

But I have to re-evaluate my opinion of that play. Before I had the impression that there might have been a case to be made for a legitimate reception, but upon further review, and using 1994 standards, that was a really horrible call. Alexander never had control, and it was an obvious incomplete pass. It was also second and seven at the time, which would have forced the Lions to punt from around their own 40, and who knows what would have happened after that (possibly overtime).

Also, there were plenty of worthy MVP candidates, but I thought Henry Newby had the best game of anyone on either team.LOUUUUUU!!! LOOUUUUUUUUU! Glad the Leos won that one. The Baltimore Stallions were stacked and had an advantage because they could field a team of American players. They were also run by arguably one the best Canadian Football coaches of all-time in Don Matthews. It's why they used the full advantage of an all-import lineup while the other American teams used NFL and college coaches to build teams that weren't necessarily suited for Canadian Football.

Baltimore was the team that took full of advantage of the large American talent pool and Matthews had seemless replacements for any injuries that they would incur. Remember Robert Drummond was not a starter on that team, as he played behind Mike Pringle. Both of them would probably not have been kept by a team based in Canada because of the ratio. In the following year the Calgary O-lines and D-lines were both manhandled by the Stallions depth on both lines. Flutie was running for his life all-day. The advantages were even evident on Special teams as Matthews really stacked those teams. Give him credit, he took advantage of the United States laws to have an All-American lineup built to excel in the Canadian game.

I also give Danny MacManus and the BC Lions credit with all their Canadians. They played their heart out and pulled out the win in 1994. McManus off the bench in relief of a struggling Kent Austin whom the Argos would pick up to play on a really bad Argo team in 1995. The Canadians on the Leos were really helped by that boisterous home crowd, even though it could be easily argued that they were outmatched.

[OV Argo]

Just watched the game. There was DEFINITELY no P.I. by Irv Smith on that play.

But I have to re-evaluate my opinion of that play. Before I had the impression that there might have been a case to be made for a legitimate reception, but upon further review, and using 1994 standards, that was a really horrible call. Alexander never had control, and it was an obvious incomplete pass. It was also second and seven at the time, which would have forced the Lions to punt from around their own 40, and who knows what would have happened after that (possibly overtime).

Also, there were plenty of worthy MVP candidates, but I thought Henry Newby had the best game of anyone on either team.

You're flat out wrong - Alexander was getting mugged on the play as he tried to make the catch - nice try to make up for your wrong first impression and wrong opinion.

[argolio]

You're flat out wrong - Alexander was getting mugged on the play as he tried to make the catch - nice try to make up for your wrong first impression and wrong opinion.Have the play cued up and just watched it again. Definitely not a catch, and definitely no P.I. Don Wittman and James Curry couldn't believe it was called a catch, and no one even brought up the possibility of P.I. on the replay.

If Irv Smith's coverage qualifies as a mugging, then P.I. should be called on almost every passing play.