August 23, 2015: Ottawa RedBlacks vs. Toronto Argonauts

[T-Bone]

http://cfl.assets.mrx.ca/shared/sked_blocks_logos/2012_2/2012_schedule_default2/ott.png vs. http://cfl.assets.mrx.ca/shared/sked_blocks_logos/2012_2/2012_schedule_default2/tor.png

Week 9
Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 4:00pm EDT.
Rogers Centre. Toronto, ON.

TV: TSN1/3/4/5 (http://www.tsn.ca/cfl-on-tsn-broadcast-schedule-1.206931)
Video Webcast: TSN Go (http://www.tsn.ca/tv#/) - ESPN3 (http://espn.go.com/watchespn/index/_/type/upcoming/sport/football/search/CFL/)
Radio: OTT: TSN 1200 (http://www.tsn.ca/radio/ottawa-1200) - TOR: TSN 1050 (http://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050)
Audio Webcast: OTT: Here (http://www.tsn.ca/radio/tsn-1200-live-stream-1.53030?ot=example.AjaxPageLayout.ot) - TOR: Here (http://www.tsn.ca/radio/tsn-1050-live-stream-1.52945?ot=example.AjaxPageLayout.ot)
Satellite Radio: SiriusXM (http://www.siriusxm.ca/sports/cfl/)

Depth Charts: OTT: Here (http://www.ottawaredblacks.com/depth-charts) - TOR: Here (http://www.argonauts.ca/depthchart/list/team/7/year/2015)

Tickets Available: Here (http://www.argonauts.ca/page/toronto-argonauts-tickets) or at Rogers Centre Gate 9 Box Office (http://www.rogerscentre.com/events/tickets.jsp)

Game Preview: Here (http://argonauts.ca/video/index/id/114983l)

Post-Game Update:

Game Highlights (http://www.cfl.ca/video/index/id/115043)

Game Recap (http://argonauts.ca/article/argos-redblacks-postgame)

Final Score: 24-30 (http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/game/ottawa-redblacks-toronto-argonauts-20150823/Stats)

[Wobbler]

I'm interested to see what our O-Line looks like for this game.

With both Keeping and Smith almost certainly out, I'd normally regard this as a test of our Canadian depth. Evidence to date suggests that we regard Sewell and Mitchell as no more than emergency subs, however. And since Greenwood will probably be back this week, there is no particular pressure to start either of those guys. But who knows, maybe we will bring Circelli (who is a natural guard) off the PR this week.

[1argoholic]

Firstly Greenwood should help big time as he knows how to hit and actually tackle. We need everyone to step up. If Calgary can crush Ottawa with a makeshift O line then we have no excuses.

I just hope the same Redblacks team shows up Toronto as they did in Calgary last night.

[Argo57]

Firstly Greenwood should help big time as he knows how to hit and actually tackle. We need everyone to step up. If Calgary can crush Ottawa with a makeshift O line then we have no excuses.

I just hope the same Redblacks team shows up Toronto as they did in Calgary last night.

Don't count on it, Ottawa will be fired up for this one (for many reasons), until Toronto shows the ability to start strong and keep their foot on the pedal expect another nail biter.

[1argoholic]

I agree as we are just stumbling to wins at this point but since I thought we'd only win five games all year I have to be thrilled right now. We just have to find a way to keep this new talent for more then just this year.

[gilthethrill]

Looking forward to making perhaps my last trip to RC ever. Hoping Kackert draws into the lineup along with Whittaker. Chris Williams has missed the last 2 games but could be ready in 7 days. Ottawa struggles with the run game, so the Argo D should be able to mess up Burris.

[AngeloV]

I'm interested to see what our O-Line looks like for this game.

With both Keeping and Smith almost certainly out, I'd normally regard this as a test of our Canadian depth. Evidence to date suggests that we regard Sewell and Mitchell as no more than emergency subs, however. And since Greenwood will probably be back this week, there is no particular pressure to start either of those guys. But who knows, maybe we will bring Circelli (who is a natural guard) off the PR this week.

I would give Sewell a chance to start. I don't want to get into the habit of starting 3 import OL. Their offence sputtered this week with Owens and Elliott out of the line-up. IMO, 2 of the 3 sacks were not on the o-line, but rather Harris not finding an open receiver.

[paulwoods13]

I doubt Sewell starts since Mitchell seems to be the go-to backup.

[AngeloV]

I doubt Sewell starts since Mitchell seems to be the go-to backup.

I'm good with either one starting. See what they can do.

[Wobbler]

My hope is that we really stick it to the REDBLACKS this week and finally have a chance to experiment with personnel in the fourth quarter. It would be nice to see Sewell get some reps at RT, to find out if he can be a pro tackle.

[ArgoFan1]

I was looking forward to that game, as a battle for first place, but after the Ottawa performance on the road the other day, I doubt they will be much of an opposition.... but you never know. I am loving the fact that I can watch Kackert run again in person.

[ArgoRavi]

I was looking forward to that game, as a battle for first place, but after the Ottawa performance on the road the other day, I doubt they will be much of an opposition.... but you never know. I am loving the fact that I can watch Kackert run again in person.

Ottawa's performance will hinge, in part, on whether Hank or Frank shows up and considering that Frank showed up in Calgary I suspect that Hank will make an appearance in Toronto. Furthermore, I can't imagine that Ottawa's special teams will be as bad next week as they were in Calgary although if they foolishly continue with Demarco as their punter the Argos should enjoy a huge field position advantage.

[Argo]

Argonauts win. Book it : )

[Will]

I was looking forward to that game, as a battle for first place, but after the Ottawa performance on the road the other day, I doubt they will be much of an opposition.... but you never know. I am loving the fact that I can watch Kackert run again in person.

We've been saying that the last two games should be easy wins and they have proven not to be.

[QBall]

Red's coming off humiliating defeat against Stamps. Time to kick 'em while they're down. Hopefully Waters starts so we can have that position resolved (not overly impressed with Pfeffer). Harris needs to take command of this game in the first half and the second half. No more of this "Let's wait until the second half and then we'll kick this into gear". Argooooos!!!

[Argo57]

We've been saying that the last two games should be easy wins and they have proven not to be.

And this game will be no different.

[AngeloV]

Ottawa's performance will hinge, in part, on whether Hank or Frank shows up and considering that Frank showed up in Calgary I suspect that Hank will make an appearance in Toronto. Furthermore, I can't imagine that Ottawa's special teams will be as bad next week as they were in Calgary although if they foolishly continue with Demarco as their punter the Argos should enjoy a huge field position advantage.

I am actually going to defend Burris from Saturday's performance. Their O-line was totally dominated, and it didn't matter who played QB for Ottawa on this night.

[Argocister]

I am actually going to defend Burris from Saturday's performance. Their O-line was totally dominated, and it didn't matter who played QB for Ottawa on this night.

I'm sure Milanovich and Creehan can learn from that :)

[ArgoRavi]

I am actually going to defend Burris from Saturday's performance. Their O-line was totally dominated, and it didn't matter who played QB for Ottawa on this night.

BTW, Burris' performance and pulling from that game generated a great Twitter discussion between you, Casey Printers and some others that night. Printers was certainly not happy to see Burris pulled at halftime.

[AngeloV]

BTW, Burris' performance and pulling from that game generated a great Twitter discussion between you, Casey Printers and some others that night. Printers was certainly not happy to see Burris pulled at halftime.

Yes..I was quite involved in that debate. Still can't believe Printers has Burris in top 5 of all time. I don't even have him in the top 10 of QB's that have played since I began watching in the mid 70's.

[R.J]

Last weeks game IMO was further proof that Demarco has no business in the CFL.

[AngeloV]

Last weeks game IMO was further proof that Demarco has no business in the CFL.

I defended him in the pre-season, but I have absolutely changed my mind. He's pretty bad. They need to get a guy ready to take over for Burris, and I don't think either Demarco or O'Brian are that guy.

And having Demarco punt? What is Campbell thinking? He was brutal. He had a good dual kicker in Alvarado (I have seen him punt when he was with the Als for a couple of pre-seasons and he was quite good) and they cut him because he had 1 bad game...a game he bounced back and made the winning FG in. Really strange decision making there.

[bluto]

i really wish that i had some sense that the Argos would show up for the first half for a change... although with the securitards keeping thousands of us outside the dome until after kickoff, perhaps this is a mercy.

also, it'd be nice to get some semblance of the pressure on Henry like he had against the Horseys and perhaps we would be able to do it with just our down linemen and not have to rely on sending half of our defensive backfield to generate some modicum of heat.

and yeah, I know that the Trestman/Milanovich system doesn't really go over the top too often on a defence more than a time or two per game and they take a "take what the defence gives you" approach... but to me, the defence always gives you more room if you display a willingness to throw past them... especially with the big fellas at receiver that we have.

and I suppose that's all the griping I can do about my first place team for today. I actually have a feeling that we're going to win this one in style (now that after a long absence, our 6ypc tailback has returned to keep defences from cheating deep on us)... and when I feel that way, it always makes me nervous.

[mchesher03]

hate to be the debbie downer here but has anyone got any re-assurance that the debacle of the opener won't happen this Sunday? I just emailed my ticket rep adn i'm sure he will give me the company line, but i'm just curious whether aside from apologizing there will be any change. I can't see attendance being north of 20k (hope I'm wrong) so I will be amazed yet again if we have similar issues.....

[T-Bone]

hate to be the debbie downer here but has anyone got any re-assurance that the debacle of the opener won't happen this Sunday? I just emailed my ticket rep adn i'm sure he will give me the company line, but i'm just curious whether aside from apologizing there will be any change. I can't see attendance being north of 20k (hope I'm wrong) so I will be amazed yet again if we have similar issues.....
The team has been tweeting this the past few days:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-cards="hidden" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">REMINDER: There are new venue security policies in place at the <a href="https://twitter.com/Rogers_Centre">@Rogers_Centre</a> in 2015.

INFO: <a href="http://t.co/Rf6ZN6jwhL">http://t.co/Rf6ZN6jwhL</a> <a href="http://t.co/FGtUH4RYUL">pic.twitter.com/FGtUH4RYUL</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/633715705985265664">August 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Probably a good idea to give yourself an extra 15 to 20 minutes just in case.

[gilthethrill]

The team has been tweeting this the past few days:
<iframe id="twitter-widget-0" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" allowfullscreen="" style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-image: initial; max-width: 100%; min-width: 220px; margin-top: 10px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; display: block; width: 500px; position: static; visibility: visible; " title="Twitter Tweet" height="223"></iframe>
<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Probably a good idea to give yourself an extra 15 to 20 minutes just in case.

I am leaving my backpack at home....did I read somewhere there is a quicker line for fans without backpacks?<iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" style="display: none; "></iframe>

[T-Bone]

I am leaving my backpack at home....did I read somewhere there is a quicker line for fans without backpacks?<iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" style="display: none; "></iframe>
There are separate lines for people with or with out bags.

[gilthethrill]

I defended him in the pre-season, but I have absolutely changed my mind. He's pretty bad. They need to get a guy ready to take over for Burris, and I don't think either Demarco or O'Brian are that guy.

And having Demarco punt? What is Campbell thinking? He was brutal. He had a good dual kicker in Alvarado (I have seen him punt when he was with the Als for a couple of pre-seasons and he was quite good) and they cut him because he had 1 bad game...a game he bounced back and made the winning FG in. Really strange decision making there.

Cutting Alvarado was odd, but the reasoning was Milo would give the team roster flexibility, he being a Canadian. Now they cut Alix, the punter and appear ready to replace him with an American. There goes the roster flexibility. Keeping Alvarado would have made sense since he did both kicking duties.

[T-Bone]

This is good news for Sunday's game:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/swayzewaters">@SwayzeWaters</a> is excited to get back to work this week vs. the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/REDBLACKS?src=hash">#REDBLACKS</a>: <a href="http://t.co/XBq30VQ8iG">http://t.co/XBq30VQ8iG</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> <a href="http://t.co/rfeBdkxVpD">pic.twitter.com/rfeBdkxVpD</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/634086495197003776">August 19, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[ArgoFan1]

Just show up early and you will get in on time. It is a Sunday afternoon, so no one has to rush down after work (mostly). I have never missed opening kick off. I was just lucky to make the kick off last game because, first, the parking lot I wanted to go to was full, so I had to drive a few blocks away and walk back, and then the unexpected security.

[Will]

It sounds like Chris Williams will be back, and that sucks because he always burned the Argos when he was with the Tiger-Cats.

[Argo]

It sounds like Chris Williams will be back, and that sucks because he always burned the Argos when he was with the Tiger-Cats.

Then the win will be just that much more satisfying.

[argonaut11xx]

Ottawa is somewhat better than last year, but they IMO are still the 4th best team in the east.

Rick Campbell is the worst coach in the league. The Redblack will win 7 games or less this year.

This game should be a gimme

[PullTogether73]

Ottawa is somewhat better than last year, but they IMO are still the 4th best team in the east.

Rick Campbell is the worst coach in the league. The Redblack will win 7 games or less this year.

This game should be a gimme

While the Argos record this season is a pleasant surprise, I can't say that I feel that any of their games are "gimmes".
I made a mental note after the last game to not watch the first half of any more Argo games. They don't show up until the second half!

[Argo57]

Ottawa is somewhat better than last year, but they IMO are still the 4th best team in the east.

Rick Campbell is the worst coach in the league. The Redblack will win 7 games or less this year.

This game should be a gimme

The vast majority felt the same way before last seasons game against Ottawa which resulted in a loss.
Gimme and the Argos don't belong in the same sentence.

[Wobbler]

The depth chart (http://cfl.uploads.mrx.ca/league/pdf/en/depth/2015/TOR_OTT_Week_9_Depth_Chart085835.pdf) is up. Based on Milanovich's comments it sounds like Keeping and Smith will be game day decisions on the OL, but we have a pretty good looking lineup.

[ArgoRavi]

The depth chart (http://cfl.uploads.mrx.ca/league/pdf/en/depth/2015/TOR_OTT_Week_9_Depth_Chart085835.pdf) is up. Based on Milanovich's comments it sounds like Keeping and Smith will be game day decisions on the OL, but we have a pretty good looking lineup.

Certainly looking much better! I wonder what has happened to Brandon Underwood. Last we heard he was suspended a couple of weeks ago. I wonder if we have seen the last of him or not.

[argotom]

Whitaker and Kack in the backfield.
That could be an awesome duo if used in tandem.

[gilthethrill]

Certainly looking much better! I wonder what has happened to Brandon Underwood. Last we heard he was suspended a couple of weeks ago. I wonder if we have seen the last of him or not.

Kind of annoying really. He is a starting db, but you never hear anyone ask Milanovich about Underwood during media availability. Do the Argos keep too much quiet or does the media not bother to ask?

[Wobbler]

I think this is a case of the Argos deciding to keep the story quiet, and the media respecting that decision (for better or worse). This is one the advantages (arguably) of limited media attention.

[ArgoRavi]

I think this is a case of the Argos deciding to keep the story quiet, and the media respecting that decision (for better or worse). This is one the advantages (arguably) of limited media attention.

That's probably about right. Anyone remember our surprise when the promising Janzen Jackson was released just before a game a couple of years ago and we weren't provided any reason? A few months later, he was charged with murder (not saying the same is going to happen to Underwood).

[Neely2005]

Whitaker and Kack in the backfield.
That could be an awesome duo if used in tandem.

Yes please!

[paulwoods13]

Will happen only if we (a) remove one of our dynamic new receivers and (b) change our entire offensive philosophy.

[argolio]

Will happen only if we (a) remove one of our dynamic new receivers and (b) change our entire offensive philosophy.So you're saying there's a chance! :D

[Wobbler]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> scratches: J. King and S. Mitchell. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a></p>&mdash; Mike Hogan (@tsnmikehogan) <a href="https://twitter.com/tsnmikehogan/status/635532145876832257">August 23, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Stevoman]

Ugh, not a fan of these 3rd jerseys. I'm fine with the colours but that big A on the front and the number font drives me crazy!

[Ballstothewall]

Ottawa was way offside on the pass leading up to their first Td

[argonaut11xx]

Looks like a beautiful day for football, roof open, etc.

Crowd looks meek on TV, any guesses?

Wish i was back in Toronto.

Ottawa's TD was a joke of an offside, hope it doesn't come back to burn the double blue in the end.

Interesting tidbit about how Milanovich's Dad comes to every home game, and is on the sideline. (From Rochester, NY)

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Second and 15 on the Ottawa 10 yard line and we give up a 50 yard play. This drives me nuts.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Brandon McDonald may have just saved the game for Argos by shooting his mouth off. Thank you.

[Wobbler]

Swayze Waters is a fairly good punter.

[Wobbler]

And, once again, we barely win a game. This is not a great team, but it is nearly always good enough!

Kackert wasn't nearly so impressive today. He didn't seem to have the same burst or energy as last week, and I understand why we're still using Whitaker most of the time.

[Stevoman]

Happy for the win and the Argonauts are 6-2 for the first time since 97! It's an interesting team as it seems that they are excellent in spurts but were also very ineffective in both the 1st and 3rd quarters. However, they are always making big plays when necessary! Great game from the d-line and also Swayze Waters. Kudos to Hazelton for keeping his mouth shut allowing the Ottawa DB to get the penalty and give the Argos the momentum. They have to find a way to keep Spencer in the lineup once Owens gets back.

[R.J]

Attendance was 14,748, according to cfl.ca
The East side didn't look too bad today, but the west side was pretty bare.

[Wobbler]

Burris played an amazing game today. He was elusive in the pocket, made great decisions, and deservedly put up big numbers. Although we had a few guys disappear on D today (where the heck was Jones?), Hank was really on fire.

[Neely2005]

Back home from the game and I have to say that was the smallest crowd that I've ever seen at an Argonauts game!
:(

[Fumblitis]

Burris played an amazing game today. He was elusive in the pocket, made great decisions, and deservedly put up big numbers. Although we had a few guys disappear on D today (where the heck was Jones?), Hank was really on fire.I was surprised that Burris couldn't elude the pressure on that last third down. Argo D came through when needed. Very good game I thought.

[Argo]

Without the late foolish objectionable conduct penalty taken by the Ottawa player, the Argos probably would have lost this game.

Looking at the stats, both Whitaker and Kackert couldn't get any yards on the ground today.

[argotom]

Swayze was the difference.
Couldn't believe the numbers that Hank threw up something like 32 for 36 and a whopping 426 yards.
And the RB still lost, due to the penalties.

[Stevoman]

Dunigan questioned Miller if the Argos were winning by using "smoke and mirrors" because they are always coming back from behind. The Argonauts were "smoke and mirrors" in 2010 but are a much better team this year. I think that they will eventually start winning a few games outright but I'm okay with them figuring themselves out (as long as they are winning) and then peak in the final third and playoffs to win it all rather than being excellent in August and fall apart at the end.

[Argocister]

Swayze tilted the field for the Argos quite nicely thank you!
So we couldn't establish the run game today .... Is the RedBlacks Defense that much better ? or is it our Oline not in sync?
We will have to remember next RedBlacks game ...... You get Hank upset next play is a F..? Up in our favour, 😄
Not the prettiest win but I will take it .... Are we playing more of the game now that we are in the middle stretch? It was still 2 quarters today that we played. There were times when our Dline was super dominant ...... It will be fun at the end of the season!

Even though the crowd was only shy of 15,000 it did make some noise in the last quarter.
It will be so much fun next year during the CNE ! At least when the crowd participates there , the CNE visitors will want to know what they are missing! Kids will go home chanting ARRRRRRGGGGOOOOOS!

[Wobbler]

+ Swayze Waters: best punter in the league, and a fine FG kicker.
+ Anthony Coombs: after a few quiet games, today he was getting open and making terrific moves for extra YAC and reminding us why he's in Durie's spot.
+ Cory Greenwood: he really is a noticeable upgrade on Yurichuk in positioning and tackling
+ Akwazi Owusu-Ansah: breakout game. He was all over the place, hitting hard. I couldn't tell why he was so much more noticeable today; did they move him from field corner?

- Trevor Harris: not bad, but a mediocre game by his standard. Two of the three TDs were total gimmes thanks to blown coverage, and the pick six was obviously a problem.
- Greg Jones: invisible! Ottawa didn't rush a lot, but he's still normally far more involved. Miles came in for Isaac, but Jones played the whole game... didn't he?

[ArgoFan1]

Argos really didn't deserve to win that game. Ottawa killed themselves with a few poorly timed penalties. Argos were infuriating as they simply refused to run the ball. First three series that Kackert was in, they never handed him the ball once. I assume they were hoping he would be the decoy to attract all the attention. Just way too much reliance on the pass today. Defence came up big when they absolutely had to, but other than that, they got beat for about 500 yards. Way too much ground to be giving up.

Crowd size was very disappointing, but this is what I have been saying all along to those that wish for weekend games. They just will not work in Toronto in the summer. A beautiful summer day, as summer begins to wind down and I imagine a lot of people were preferring to do other activities. It will be the same at BMO next year if they try to play too many weekend games. Maybe a Saturday night game or Sunday night game, which allows people the day to do their thing. I am recently retired, but even when I was working, I always preferred the weeknight games. A nice break in the middle of the work week.

This team is headed into a really tough stretch of the schedule, so they better get their act together and not rely on late game heroics too many more times.
Forgot how great Swayze Waters is in the time he was away. He was probably the biggest difference in the game, as some others have said. In the end, Argos have to at least try to run the ball more.

[Will]

Henry Burris had way too much time to throw the ball today, although the Argos did do a good job when it counted with getting pressure on him. Even on some of those long bombs there wasn't a significant problem with the coverage just nice plays by the Ottawa receiver. The Ottawa run game wasn't a significant factor.

Ottawa's defense is pretty good and I think people tend to forget that. Their schemes were pretty effective against our offensive line. The Argos could get nothing going on the ground and the Rough Riders really didn't allow anything deep, although busted coverage on those two TD's really do hurt. Also, great catch by Vidal Hazelton for the TD. In fact, Elliott, Gurley and Hazelton all got majors today. I agree that it was good to see Coombs get involved a bit, and I like Spencer although he'll probably lose the numbers game when Owens comes back.

The difference in this game was the special teams. Credit to the Argos defense in the 4th for pinning the Rough Riders deep. The Ottawa punter was brutal and although the Argos didn't take advantage of the field position (to any real extent) the ball was already well within Swayze range due to the no yards penalties. Conversely, Swayze Waters was great punting and the downfield coverage of Williams was quite excellent as well. I think I'm probably under appreciating the impact that McDonald's objectionable conduct penalty had as well.

The Argos are now 6-2 with 5 of their 6 wins being by less than 10 points. Someone mentioned the smoke and mirrors from 2010. My brain keeps turning to that, but remember that fortunately it isn't Cleo Lemon back there and the receivers are credible. It is about getting a bit of a running game going and the defense finding consistency. Two tough games await.

[Gill The Thrill]

Ugh, not a fan of these 3rd jerseys. I'm fine with the colours but that big A on the front and the number font drives me crazy!I wish they'd burn those Tennessee Titan uniforms. That's not a football uniform, it look like a jr hockey uniform, not that there is anything wrong with jr. hockey, just using those style of uniforms with a crest in the middle for a football uniform is wrong. I bet the officials probably hate them too when they have to find the correct jersey numbers between the tackles.

[OV Argo]

+ Swayze Waters: best punter in the league, and a fine FG kicker.
+ Anthony Coombs: after a few quiet games, today he was getting open and making terrific moves for extra YAC and reminding us why he's in Durie's spot.
+ Cory Greenwood: he really is a noticeable upgrade on Yurichuk in positioning and tackling
+ Akwazi Owusu-Ansah: breakout game. He was all over the place, hitting hard. I couldn't tell why he was so much more noticeable today; did they move him from field corner?

- Trevor Harris: not bad, but a mediocre game by his standard. Two of the three TDs were total gimmes thanks to blown coverage, and the pick six was obviously a problem.
- Greg Jones: invisible! Ottawa didn't rush a lot, but he's still normally far more involved. Miles came in for Isaac, but Jones played the whole game... didn't he?

Miles seemed to be in at MLB for Jones a lot from what I saw ... and did a nice job - 2 good run stuffs and flying around to the ball otherwise; not sure why he was in unless Jones was nicked or something because it is odd or unusual for a back-up NI to get a lot of playing time at a position that is pencilled-in for an import? - anyways, maybe Miles gets rewarded with more playing time - he was better than Jones has been lately.

Argos D a bit of a cause for a concern - young secondary lit up by vet QB Burris and a very good receiving corps; and still not enough consistent pass rush. Have to be better than that when they face the Ticats O with Collaros the way they are going now.

[Wobbler]

Miles seemed to be in at MLB for Jones a lot from what I saw...
Thanks OV. It sounds like both Jones *and* BI must have been hurt. Since he's the best defender on the team, obviously we wouldn't have taken Jones out without a good reason.

[OV Argo]

Thanks OV. It sounds like both Jones *and* BI must have been hurt. Since he's the best defender on the team, obviously we wouldn't have taken Jones out without a good reason.

Jones was still playing some D and STs AFTER Miles got some playing time, so it does not make sense that Miles was just in as an injury replacement; and like I said - Miles did more on D anyways; who is the best defender on the team? - certainly not Jones IMO.

[Gill The Thrill]

Attendance was 14,748, according to cfl.ca
The East side didn't look too bad today, but the west side was pretty bare.

Looked way less than the opener vs Saskatchewan and good god was the place dead quiet when Ottawa scored...How many Ottawa fans were there? Were there even 10, because it sure sounded like none in the first half. The TSN cameras did try and showed some close ups of Ottawa fans during their quick TD's in the 4th quarter, surrounded by a whole bunch of hometown Argo fans.

I chose too stay home and not subject myself to all that inconveniance and overblown security and watched comfortably on TV, so I did help the CFL and TSN and with ratings. It seems like I was not the only one who opted for this as attendance was under 15k. I tip my hat to those of you who were there as the noise late in the 4th quarter was definitely loud and evident through my TV...good job Argo fans.

You could argue that I did not do my part by going to the game, but the best part of my decision was that I did not use the concessions and gave Rogers corporation zilch, $0.00 and that's fine by me. I bet I'm not the only one, as mentioned.

Despite the not as large crowd, were there any difficulties with the security measures. Were there enough and was the Rogers Centre staff cordial and efficient in herding the crowd in?

[Will]

On the visitor's side there was hardly enough of a queue for any such delay to take place.

[argolio]

- Greg Jones: invisible! Ottawa didn't rush a lot, but he's still normally far more involved. Miles came in for Isaac, but Jones played the whole game... didn't he?Jones was substituted quite a few times from what I could tell, though those stupid unis didn't make it easy to tell. Maybe they tried to limit snaps for him (and others?) due to the short week before Edmonton.

Jones did make a really nice special teams tackle, or at least I think it was him (stupid unis!).


Argos were infuriating as they simply refused to run the ball. First three series that Kackert was in, they never handed him the ball once. I assume they were hoping he would be the decoy to attract all the attention. Just way too much reliance on the pass today.Hard to justify that when you average only 2.8 yards per carry, easily our worst this year. If anything, 16 rushes was too many.

Crowd couldn't have been more than 10,000. Looks like it might be that way for every game other than the Riders and Ticats.

[Ron]

Low attendance = zero cares. The problem is already solved and who cares of people can't be bothered to spend a min of $35 to go to the Dome.

As for the game. Thanks Ottawa for the penalties, Frankly the Argos are not as good as the two elite teams (Ham and Cal) and wouldn't be as good as Edmonton with Reilly. But they are better than most thought they would be. They play with grit and heart and that's worth a lot. (and helps make up for a Creehan defense)

Just imagine that Ottawa offense with Ray instead of Henry!

The broadcast was also cool. Really sounded like Dunigan had a bender last night.

[ArgoRavi]

Regarding Thomas Miles, he seemed to replace Greg Jones for a lengthy stretch of the game from sometime in the 2nd quarter through the 3rd quarter at least. I just assumed that Jones was hurt but then he was suddenly back on the field for the fourth quarter and playing special teams to boot.

There isn't much more to add about the game other than that the Argos are a resilient bunch. They were able to shift momentum after Ottawa took that 24-17 lead and never relinquished it. Yes, Ottawa took a stupid penalty but the Argos made them pay. The offence looked very good in the first half but struggled in the second half. Ultimately, Swayze Waters was the difference in this game.

[Neely2005]

Ugh, not a fan of these 3rd jerseys. I'm fine with the colours but that big A on the front and the number font drives me crazy!

I actually like that. You can buy a blank football Jersey and not have it look silly.


Looked way less than the opener vs Saskatchewan and good god was the place dead quiet when Ottawa scored...How many Ottawa fans were there? Were there even 10, because it sure sounded like none in the first half. The TSN cameras did try and showed some close ups of Ottawa fans during their quick TD's in the 4th quarter, surrounded by a whole bunch of hometown Argo fans.

I chose too stay home and not subject myself to all that inconveniance and overblown security and watched comfortably on TV, so I did help the CFL and TSN and with ratings. It seems like I was not the only one who opted for this as attendance was under 15k. I tip my hat to those of you who were there as the noise late in the 4th quarter was definitely loud and evident through my TV...good job Argo fans.

You could argue that I did not do my part by going to the game, but the best part of my decision was that I did not use the concessions and gave Rogers corporation zilch, $0.00 and that's fine by me. I bet I'm not the only one, as mentioned.

Despite the not as large crowd, were there any difficulties with the security measures. Were there enough and was the Rogers Centre staff cordial and efficient in herding the crowd in?

Yeah there definitely were not a lot of Ottawa fans at the game. Security was much quicker for us this game, literally took us 30 seconds to get in and we came about 10 minutes before kickoff.

[paulwoods13]

Miles played a lot. Jones did not appear to be hurt as he was on the sidelines with his helmet on, and he still came in on special teams and also spotted in on D. IMO he and Greenwood have been far and away our best and most consistent defenders so I am guessing the coaching staff just wanted to get some PT for Miles who has potential to become a longterm starter. With four minutes left and Ottawa deep in its own end, the Argos had SIX NATs on D: Miles, Greenwood, Waud, Foley, Laing and Gabriel. Made the stop that led to our last FG.

Remember how some were suggesting we should keep Pfeffer over Waters because Pfeffer is a NAT. Yesterday we got a reminder of why that would be a stupid idea. Btw my daughter saw a guy who looked a lot like Pfeffer, wearing a Laurier hat, in the west side concourse.

[mchesher03]

my thoughts:
- Prefontaine was on the home side outside section 109 before the game. He looks good and hasn't aged much.
- Cummings had 2 huge sacks just when we needed them. our D line also drew a bunch of holding penalties which are basically sacks in my book.
- who cares about attendance? I struggle to think of times I've had more fun at football games then yesterday and the Sask game (yesterday was better - fewer flags). Fun, the fans were into it and to be honest I'll make noise on defence whether it makes a difference or not (i'm sure it doesn't 99% of the time).
- we are off to our best start since the flutie years, let that sink in a little. we also have played a brutal schedule so far with essentially 2 home games. just enjoy it for what it is. yes i'd love to see certain things happen but what a ride this has been - 5 straight home wins even!

[Gill The Thrill]

I actually like that. You can buy a blank football Jersey and not have it look silly

As fan merchandise I would agree with you in comparison to a blank jersey with no numbers, but as an actual football jersey used in a game, no way should they ever be used. I am not a fan of many of the signature series 3rd jerseys. They don't look like pro football jerseys and I think may contribute to confusing the heck out of casual or would be fans who may have no idea what the Argonaut jersey, helmet or logo look like as they may see all these different variations at times during highlights. I cannot see how that promotes the brand, other than getting the fans you already have to shell out money to buy these jerseys for their collection.

I bet you can ask a guy who is a casual or non hockey fan and ask them if they could identify a Leafs, Canadiens, Red Wings, Blackhawks or Rangers jersey and they'll all be able to easily because they've rarely if ever made glaring changes to their uniforms. I think the Argos lost a lot of that brand notoriety when they changed their boat logo on the helmet in 1990. They went to that budget looking horribly written Argos logo on the helmet and the jersey. The Harry Ornest logo. Thankfully they recovered that brand somewhat in bringing back the nice sleek looking double blue trims and the big "A" logo in 1991.

As for the football team, the Argos better stick with trying to develop a running game as part of the game plan, especially since they have the guys in Kackert and Whitaker. Throwing the ball is nice, but as the weather gets cooler and the winds pick up, you better have a running attack to keep defenses honest and not loading up on DB's. These are habit forming and I don't think the Argos are as well-oiled as the Ticats are now. I also believe Montreal is in a position to make noise in the playoffs if they can get in because of the potential running attack of Sutton and Rutley which can help rookie Cato simply manage a game, as opposed to winning games on his own as a rookie QB. I know they had planned to fire Higgins before their win in BC, but Popp would be wise to follow that gameplan. They have as good a defense as any in the league and I bet their dressing room is also stabilized and not as distracted as it was with all the non-football related attention from the media.

[Will]

As for the football team, the Argos better stick with trying to develop a running game as part of the game plan, especially since they have the guys in Kackert and Whitaker. Throwing the ball is nice, but as the weather gets cooler and the winds pick up, you better have a running attack to keep defenses honest and not loading up on DB's. These are habit forming and I don't think the Argos are as well-oiled as the Ticats are now. I also believe Montreal is in a position to make noise in the playoffs if they can get in because of the potential running attack of Sutton and Rutley which can help rookie Cato simply manage a game, as opposed to winning games on his own as a rookie QB. I know they had planned to fire Higgins before their win in BC, but Popp would be wise to follow that gameplan. They have as good a defense as any in the league and I bet their dressing room is also stabilized and not as distracted as it was with all the non-football related attention from the media.

I do agree that the running game can stand to improve. However, the Argos travel to Edmonton on Friday, which is there last trip out west (barring the Grey Cup) so the Prairie autumn weather will not be a factor. They also travel to Hamilton on Labour Day, Ottawa in late September and Montreal in early October so the weather shouldn't be too, too cold. Any playoff game out east in November might be an issue though.

[Argocister]

........ However, the Argos travel to Edmonton on Friday, which is there last trip out west (barring the Grey Cup) so the Prairie autumn weather will not be a factor. They also travel to Hamilton on Labour Day, Ottawa in late September and Montreal in early October so the weather shouldn't be too, too cold. Any playoff game out east in November might be an issue though.
Interesting view ..... So basically we should have easy weather here on in ...... Except it doesn't help prepare for the Grey Cup in Winnipeg.:o
The security lines were opposite from last week . I came 45 minutes early as I didn't want to miss the opening kick ..... Just sailed in . I think they had more lines open.

[Will]

Temperature shouldn't be a factor in Hamilton on Labor Day, although one cannot exclude the possibility of rain. It might be chilly in Ottawa and Montreal by the time the Argos play there, but not necessarily as a Thanksgiving game that T-Bone, Mulder and I attended in Montreal once was around 25C and sunshine.

[ArgoZ]

Security was expanded and everything was set up to easily handle the previous crowd size. It turned out however, that the last games security could have handled this weeks crowd efficiently and adequately.

[QBall]

Man I just don't have faith in Harris. He seems to rely on the defense to keep us close so he can somehow pull a miracle out of his ass and get us the win. I so desperately want to watch a game where he can put in a full 60 minute performance. Enough of the roller coaster ride already! As for Swayze his tackle in the first quarter after the punt should be one of the CFL highlights of the year.

[Will]

Consistency over 60 minutes is a team issue right now and isn't just restricted to Trevor Harris.

[Wobbler]

Thanks for the info on Miles and Jones, everyone. If Miles can indeed play at a high level (and he seems OK so far), Rolle will start to look pretty unnecessary.

[1argoholic]

Burris was 32 of 36 for 400 plus yards and he doesn't get the win.
Somehow we have horseshoes pulling out these wins.
We were two who had our seats sitting empty. Neither my wife and I were feeling so great so we stayed home. Crowd looked like shit on tv but everyone there should be proud of the noise they made at times as it came across like a larger crowd.
We still have issues with qb pressure,stopping the pass,coverage and tackling and yet we're 6-2. Smoke and mirrors seems like the correct call to me. Glad we had Matt and Miller as they work great together.

The uniforms are just plain CRRAAAP! Please don't wear that shite design ever again!!!!!!!

Now back on the friggin road again.

Screw Rogers!!!

[paulwoods13]

Thanks for the info on Miles and Jones, everyone. If Miles can indeed play at a high level (and he seems OK so far), Rolle will start to look pretty unnecessary.

That's a bit of a leap, IMO. Rolle plays on all special teams and I suspect he is completing his assignments well even if they are not visible to untrained eyes like ours. In this league nowadays it's necessary to have a lot of LBs because they are usually the key guys on kick coverage (and that has certainly been the case for us this year). I'm more interested in seeing how they replace Isaac if he's out for a spell. Agnew replaced him yesterday. I find Isaac almost as annoying as he was the last time we had him -- capable of making a huge play but also capable of missing an easy tackle by using his arms and hands rather than his shoulders and torso.

[1argoholic]

That seems to be the way much of our D tries to tackle. Notice that Greenwood just pounds guys to the turf?

[AngeloV]

Burris was 32 of 36 for 400 plus yards and he doesn't get the win.
Somehow we have horseshoes pulling out these wins.
We were two who had our seats sitting empty. Neither my wife and I were feeling so great so we stayed home. Crowd looked like shit on tv but everyone there should be proud of the noise they made at times as it came across like a larger crowd.
We still have issues with qb pressure,stopping the pass,coverage and tackling and yet we're 6-2. Smoke and mirrors seems like the correct call to me. Glad we had Matt and Miller as they work great together.

The uniforms are just plain CRRAAAP! Please don't wear that shite design ever again!!!!!!!

Now back on the friggin road again.

Screw Rogers!!!

The fact that the Argos have been great at protecting the ball has really helped with their D this year. For the most part, they are giving up a lot of yards, but they are not giving up a lot of short fields. Despite 400 yards passing, their D only gave up 17 points. Protect the ball, and get good special teams, and you have the ability to win every game. I will take that over forcing a ball deep into coverage any time.

Unis suck. Good for a fan in the crowd to wear, but should never be worn in a game again. Impossible to tell who the players are unless they have their back to you. That is just stupid.

And yes..What you say about Rogers.

[paulwoods13]

Unis suck. Good for a fan in the crowd to wear, but should never be worn in a game again. Impossible to tell who the players are unless they have their back to you. That is just stupid.

Sadly, I agree with this as well. Put full-size numbers on the front and get rid of the stupid socks and they'd be really nice. But as is they are for fashion, not for function.

[Argo]

Remember how some were suggesting we should keep Pfeffer over Waters because Pfeffer is a NAT. Yesterday we got a reminder of why that would be a stupid idea. Btw my daughter saw a guy who looked a lot like Pfeffer, wearing a Laurier hat, in the west side concourse.

Everybody agrees that Pfeffer did a nice job (including Milanovich), but no one on this board ever suggested retaining Pfeffer in preference to Waters. That would simply be Pfsilly :)

[R.J]

Anyone else get a little peeved that Harris was picked off on the same play selection twice ? (saved by a penalty on the first pick)

[paulwoods13]

Everybody agrees that Pfeffer did a nice job (including Milanovich), but no one on this board ever suggested retaining Pfeffer in preference to Waters. That would simply be Pfsilly :)

That's not how I remember it. I think a search would find at least one suggestion that maybe we should keep Pfeffer because waters is allegedly injury prone and an INT.

[argotom]

I would not be surprised if Pfeffer is plucked by Ottawa from our PR.

[AngeloV]

I would not be surprised if Pfeffer is plucked by Ottawa from our PR.

Well, Ottawa signed him a couple of hours ago, but he wasn't on our practice roster. He was a FA.

[R.J]

That's not how I remember it. I think a search would find at least one suggestion that maybe we should keep Pfeffer because waters is allegedly injury prone and an INT.
and I'd happily state it again.

["Issues"Mcgee]

The signature jerseys are nice. You old hermit crabs are so fickle. I just wish they weren't so expensive.

[R.J]

The signature jerseys are nice. You old hermit crabs are so fickle. I just wish they weren't so expensive.
I'm not a fan of the Argonauts signature jersey whatsoever. So does being 28 years old classify me as a old hermit crab ?

Your point about jerseys being expensive I can agree with, currently I'm in a bit of a pickle as I can't decide between getting a Waud or Greenwood jersey and with the reports that the CFL is done with Reebok after this season and based on an email I received from Dale Lastman, the Argonauts and CFL as a whole will introduce new jerseys next season, so yet another jersey I'd probably end up buying. Three jerseys would equal over $600 in less than 2 years for me. I might need to learn self control and only get two lol.

["Issues"Mcgee]

I'm not a fan of the Argonauts signature jersey whatsoever. So does being 28 years old classify me as a old hermit crab ?

Your point about jerseys being expensive I can agree with, currently I'm in a bit of a pickle as I can't decide between getting a Waud or Greenwood jersey and with the reports that the CFL is done with Reebok after this season and based on an email I received from Dale Lastman, the Argonauts and CFL as a whole will introduce new jerseys next season, so yet another jersey I'd probably end up buying. Three jerseys would equal over $600 in less than 2 years for me. I might need to learn self control and only get two lol.

That's way too many clams for three jerseys. Sure If I made enough money to justify $600 on jerseys alone, I would do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I'm not exactly in a lucrative line of work (ask Angelo). If you even buy two, then I commend you sir, as you are a better fan than I.

And you have two years on me, so yes, you are an old hermit crab in my eyes. I'll let you know when it's medication and sponge bath time :p

[Gill The Thrill]

and I'd happily state it again.

I would too. Waters is a great kicker, save for his first punt which was as Matt Dunigan called it, "up the elevator shaft," but that being said he has had several leg injuries during his tenure in Toronto. Groins can act up like it did a couple of seasons ago, and I advocated keeping Pfeffer, a Canadian, who does not hurt the ratio rule on the roster because of that. No where did I say that Waters should be gone, but god forbid another injury late in the season or in a big game either leading into the playoffs or during the playoffs...then instead of having that insurance policy in Pfeffer who has kicked a 54 yarder, we'd have to have to depend on Dave Stala. When's the last time Stala, who's been a valuable asset as a receiver, kicked a FG over 40 yds, let alone 50 yards?

There is precedent in having an insurance policy of an extra kicker as not having one almost cost the Argos the 1983 Grey Cup, and definitely contributed in not defending that Grey Cup in the 1984 Eastern Final. I believe the lone kicker dressed for the Argos missed a 30 yarder in OT of that game resulting in a one point loss.

[ArgoRavi]

I would too. Waters is a great kicker, save for his first punt which was as Matt Dunigan called it, "up the elevator shaft," but that being said he has had several leg injuries during his tenure in Toronto. Groins can act up like it did a couple of seasons ago, and I advocated keeping Pfeffer, a Canadian, who does not hurt the ratio rule on the roster because of that. No where did I say that Waters should be gone, but god forbid another injury late in the season or in a big game either leading into the playoffs or during the playoffs...then instead of having that insurance policy in Pfeffer who has kicked a 54 yarder, we'd have to have to depend on Dave Stala. When's the last time Stala, who's been a valuable asset as a receiver, kicked a FG over 40 yds, let alone 50 yards?

There is precedent in having an insurance policy of an extra kicker as not having one almost cost the Argos the 1983 Grey Cup, and definitely contributed in not defending that Grey Cup in the 1984 Eastern Final. I believe the lone kicker dressed for the Argos missed a 30 yarder in OT of that game resulting in a one point loss.

Are you saying that the Argos should have a second kicker dressed for the post-season, Gill? If Waters gets injured again this season, Sean Whyte is out there in a pinch and I am sure that there are a few others that they can call on as well if need be.

[gilthethrill]

Thanks for the info on Miles and Jones, everyone. If Miles can indeed play at a high level (and he seems OK so far), Rolle will start to look pretty unnecessary.

I think Rolle will be around as he is a monster on ST. As for Jones not playing every snap, I was at the game Sunday & a couple of astute fans sitting just to my left thought that since the Argos have a short week, Jones was getting some rest, allowing Miles to get into the game (he contributed too).

[paulwoods13]

So, Gill, which NAT on the current 46 would you have cut in order to keep Pfeffer?

[mchesher03]

hey I thought Pfeffer did a great job filling in but why would you ever keep a backup kicker given our tight enough of as it 46 man roster size?

man I had forgot how much fun it is watching swazye waters boom punts - man he has a leg.

[AngeloV]

Unfortunately, I'm not exactly in a lucrative line of work (ask Angelo).

LOL...Don't worry...by the time you become an old hermit crab like some of us, you will be able to buy any jerseys you want.

:D

[Argo]

That's not how I remember it. I think a search would find at least one suggestion that maybe we should keep Pfeffer because waters is allegedly injury prone and an INT.

Um... keeping Pfeffer around "if at all possible" is not the same as "retaining Pfeffer in preference to Waters".

Also, for the statistically inclined, I wonder: what is the fraction Waters' games played / Argonauts games played, since Waters was signed?

[AngeloV]

Um... keeping Pfeffer around "if at all possible" is not the same as "retaining Pfeffer in preference to Waters".

Also, for the statistically inclined, I wonder: what is the fraction Waters' games played / Argonauts games played, since Waters was signed?

I'm sure Pfeffer was offered a PR spot. This stuff happens all the time in the CFL. Why would anyone want to stop a guy from gaining full time employment in the league if you have no immediate plans for him? Honestly, Pfeffer did a fine job, but has a ways to go. I don't think his punting is as good as some on here think it is. The game in Hamilton proved that. He was asked to punt directionally so as not to give Banks room for returns. His first punt was deep, down the middle and returned for about 25 yards. The rest of his punts were shanked as he tried to kick to the sidelines. He was also a 75% FG kicker, which today is considered average.

[Will]

Who knows what sort of overtures were made to Pfeffer before he was released?

[1argoholic]

Just look at how Waters BOOMS punts giving the coverage guys time to run down and actually cover. Pfeffer did a good job for sure but he'll end up on his feet somewhere. The guys a good athlete chasing a few guys down and making great tackles.

[Argo]

I'm sure Pfeffer was offered a PR spot. This stuff happens all the time in the CFL. Why would anyone want to stop a guy from gaining full time employment in the league if you have no immediate plans for him? Honestly, Pfeffer did a fine job, but has a ways to go. I don't think his punting is as good as some on here think it is. The game in Hamilton proved that. He was asked to punt directionally so as not to give Banks room for returns. His first punt was deep, down the middle and returned for about 25 yards. The rest of his punts were shanked as he tried to kick to the sidelines. He was also a 75% FG kicker, which today is considered average.

All true, save only that Milanovich said that there was "no room" on the PR for Pfeffer, so I assume that wasn't an option. Indeed, Pferrer is better off not being a quasi-Argo.
Should the Argos again need to find and sign a substitute Canadian kicker, as usual we'll file it under "stuff happens, so deal with it".
Meanwhile, and hopefully right until SW leaves for the NFL (which seems very probable), let's just enjoy the CFL's premier kicker.

[R.J]

I'm sure Pfeffer was offered a PR spot. This stuff happens all the time in the CFL. Why would anyone want to stop a guy from gaining full time employment in the league if you have no immediate plans for him? Honestly, Pfeffer did a fine job, but has a ways to go. I don't think his punting is as good as some on here think it is. The game in Hamilton proved that. He was asked to punt directionally so as not to give Banks room for returns. His first punt was deep, down the middle and returned for about 25 yards. The rest of his punts were shanked as he tried to kick to the sidelines. He was also a 75% FG kicker, which today is considered average.
Swayze in 2012 was a 74.4% fg percentage, 2013 - 72%, 2014 - 90.4
Punts = 2012 - 44.8, 2013 - 46.5, 2014 - 47.7
Pfeffer = 75% FG, 44.1 punts, stats are almost exactly equal to Swayze's first year.

Kickers usually take some time to develop, Grant Shaw in Edmonton is a great example.

[ArgoRavi]

Swayze in 2012 was a 74.4% fg percentage, 2013 - 72%, 2014 - 90.4
Punts = 2012 - 44.8, 2013 - 46.5, 2014 - 47.7
Pfeffer = 75% FG, 44.1 punts, stats are almost exactly equal to Swayze's first year.

Kickers usually take some time to develop, Grant Shaw in Edmonton is a great example.

Shaw is still a pretty erratic kicker today. His coach doesn't seem to have confidence in him to make the clutch kicks. The Argos found Waters and Pfeffer. If anything happens to Waters again, I am sure that they will find a competent enough replacement.

[R.J]

Shaw is still a pretty erratic kicker today. His coach doesn't seem to have confidence in him to make the clutch kicks. The Argos found Waters and Pfeffer. If anything happens to Waters again, I am sure that they will find a competent enough replacement.
I respectfully disagree, Shaw up until last season was extremely erratic, couldn't kick a game winning field goal if his life depended on it, however last season that seemed to change and up until the Als game 2 weeks ago, Shaw was on a tear, going 17 for 17 this season (was 1 for 4 against the Als).

Swayze turned into a good kicker, he wasn't early on. The same goes for Pfeffer, while inconsistent at times, proved he has loads of potential. Sean Whyte is be available, the problem there is that IMO Whyte has a weak leg and doesn't seem to have the "hang time" needed in this season's CFL. The Stamps have found a way to keep 3 kickers, the Argos should have found a way to keep Pfeffer in case of the inevitable injury of Waters IMO.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing that Jones seems to have lost a bit of faith in Shaw as that's been evident as of late, I just feel that Shaw is nowhere near the erratic kicker he once was. 85% efficiency the last two seasons is nothing to sneeze at IMO.

[Gill The Thrill]

So, Gill, which NAT on the current 46 would you have cut in order to keep Pfeffer?

Why does it have to be a NAT? this is another thing that freaks me about coaches in the CFL. Those are the maximum international or American players allowed. If you scout Canadian players properly, there is no reason having one more Canadian and one less American than permitted should put you at a disadvantage. It in fact means it should be an advantage because you can play you're best players regardless of juggling the ratio should there be an injury. Good teams would be smart to stack up on good Canadians in any position. It's why Canadian QB's are never even put on the roster, because there is no advantage for a team to do so with regards to the ratio, despite the stiffs from Div III schools that really did not play a much higher calibre college ball than available at CIS.

I picked Agnew because he was imo, the slowest guy of all the DB's who's not quick enough to keep up with WR's in this league. His tackle figures on ST are not as good as Canadian LB James Yurichuk and god knows all the slack he gets on this board when he's pressed into action on defence. Agnew is not really much better, and he's an American. What's hurt the perception of the CFL in Ontario over the years is the perception that there are not enough good Canadians that play football, but in reality, the argument could easily be made that there are not enough good Americans, just cheaper ones and more plentiful of them to appease the coaches and owners.

As for having 2 kickers...if you're of a certain age it was quite common to have 2 full time kickers on the roster....Ilesic and Cutler in Edmonton, Cameron and Kennard in Winnipeg when they were the 2 best teams in the league. Clark and Ridgeway in Saskatchewan. I believe Calgary with Wally had P Tony Martino and PK Mark McLaughlin for several years.

[paulwoods13]

Why does it have to be a NAT? this is another thing that freaks me about coaches in the CFL. Those are the maximum international or American players allowed. If you scout Canadian players properly, there is no reason having one more Canadian and one less American than permitted should put you at a disadvantage. It in fact means it should be an advantage because you can play you're best players regardless of juggling the ratio should there be an injury. Good teams would be smart to stack up on good Canadians in any position. It's why Canadian QB's are never even put on the roster, because there is no advantage for a team to do so with regards to the ratio, despite the stiffs from Div III schools that really did not play a much higher calibre college ball than available at CIS.

I picked Agnew because he was imo, the slowest guy of all the DB's who's not quick enough to keep up with WR's in this league. His tackle figures on ST are not as good as Canadian LB James Yurichuk and god knows all the slack he gets on this board when he's pressed into action on defence. Agnew is not really much better, and he's an American. What's hurt the perception of the CFL in Ontario over the years is the perception that there are not enough good Canadians that play football, but in reality, the argument could easily be made that there are not enough good Americans, just cheaper ones and more plentiful of them to appease the coaches and owners.

As for having 2 kickers...if you're of a certain age it was quite common to have 2 full time kickers on the roster....Ilesic and Cutler in Edmonton, Cameron and Kennard in Winnipeg when they were the 2 best teams in the league. Clark and Ridgeway in Saskatchewan. I believe Calgary with Wally had P Tony Martino and PK Mark McLaughlin for several years.

So you'd have lost Agnew who is likely now a starter if Isaac is out, in order to keep a guy who will never play except in the event of injury.

As for the two-kicker system, that is indeed true. And rosters were smaller which meant one backup d-lineman, one backup o-lineman, many starters on special teams, etc. I actually liked that system and would prefer a 38-man roster to today's bloated rosters with situation substitutes all over the place. But since we have 46 and 44, why put yourself at a competitive disadvantage if you don't have to? And the Argos definitely don't have to because Pfeffer is not a better FG kicker, punter or kickoff specialist than Waters.


I respectfully disagree, Shaw up until last season was extremely erratic, couldn't kick a game winning field goal if his life depended on it, however last season that seemed to change and up until the Als game 2 weeks ago, Shaw was on a tear, going 17 for 17 this season (was 1 for 4 against the Als).

Swayze turned into a good kicker, he wasn't early on. The same goes for Pfeffer, while inconsistent at times, proved he has loads of potential. Sean Whyte is be available, the problem there is that IMO Whyte has a weak leg and doesn't seem to have the "hang time" needed in this season's CFL. The Stamps have found a way to keep 3 kickers, the Argos should have found a way to keep Pfeffer in case of the inevitable injury of Waters IMO.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing that Jones seems to have lost a bit of faith in Shaw as that's been evident as of late, I just feel that Shaw is nowhere near the erratic kicker he once was. 85% efficiency the last two seasons is nothing to sneeze at IMO.

Waters was an ace by his second season. If we knew Pfeffer would be that good by his second, maybe there would be value in keeping him over Waters. But even you concede that Shaw was erratic for his first four seasons. Would you really want to wait that long for Pfeffer?

[Gill The Thrill]

Waters was an ace by his second season. If we knew Pfeffer would be that good by his second, maybe there would be value in keeping him over Waters. But even you concede that Shaw was erratic for his first four seasons. Would you really want to wait that long for Pfeffer?
Pfeffer has shown the ability to be clutch in several of his kicks in his very short pro career. He's learning curve is way higher than Grant Shaw's ever was. I was not a big Grant Shaw fan and thought he was just simply erratic throughout his entire kicking career. I'd rather Pfeffer now, a player that's played 5 games than have Grant Shaw who is a veteran in the league.

Based on Pfeffer's learning curve that we've seen through his 5 game stint, he has the potential no doubt. This is why I was in favour of keeping him around? Don't get me wrong, I like Swayze Waters and was a pretty big supporter of his since he got here, but he now has a history of having sustained a groin pull and a hip flexor. These are injuries that can affect the kicking motion, the hip flexor is fine great, but a groin pull is something that can always flare up as anyone whose ever had one knows, and that would definitely affect the kicking motion in an instant.

[Gill The Thrill]

One of my posts seems to have disappeared...anyway Paul...neither Isaac nor Agnew was listed as a starter in the depth chart. They also have Black and Gabriel who've started before. Gabriel can move to the half or corner in an emergency situation and you would not lose anything compared to Agnew imo. They also have Brendan Smith who started 16 games last year and made 37 tackles on the PR. A rookie from Virginia Tech in Dedrick Bonner also on the PR and another DB in rookie Shane Herbert. How many extra DB's do we need in the organization. That's why I think Agnew is the most expendable of the 46 on the roster now. In my estimation I find him too slow to cover most receivers in the league. He can't play the corner at all and can't make up ground as was seen in that Saskatchewan game when Nic Demski outran him badly after making a catch.

[ArgoRavi]

Has anyone considered that Pfeffer would much rather being playing in Ottawa rather than sitting as a backup in Toronto?

[paulwoods13]

One of my posts seems to have disappeared...anyway Paul...neither Isaac nor Agnew was listed as a starter in the depth chart. They also have Black and Gabriel who've started before. Gabriel can move to the half or corner in an emergency situation and you would not lose anything compared to Agnew imo. They also have Brendan Smith who started 16 games last year and made 37 tackles on the PR. A rookie from Virginia Tech in Dedrick Bonner also on the PR and another DB in rookie Shane Herbert. How many extra DB's do we need in the organization. That's why I think Agnew is the most expendable of the 46 on the roster now. In my estimation I find him too slow to cover most receivers in the league. He can't play the corner at all and can't make up ground as was seen in that Saskatchewan game when Nic Demski outran him badly after making a catch.

Isaac has been the starter on every depth chart all season. I'm not a fan of Agnew as a safety but the coaches have obviously decided he's the best backup we have for Isaac. Gabriel is a starting safety and I have no interest in moving him to half or corner. Herbert is not a rookie but a somewhat fringe backup in his third season with the team. I do think Brandon smith is a good depth guy at halfback but we're not looking for halfbacks. This discussion is about whether the Argos should have let Agnew go to keep Pfeffer. Obviously I don't and neither did barker or Milanovich.

[argolio]

Has anyone considered that Pfeffer would much rather being playing in Ottawa rather than sitting as a backup in Toronto?Keep your common sense out of here, Ravi!

[Stevoman]

That penalty on McDonald not only cost the Redblacks the game, but also his own job. Cut today.

[R.J]

Waters was an ace by his second season. If we knew Pfeffer would be that good by his second, maybe there would be value in keeping him over Waters. But even you concede that Shaw was erratic for his first four seasons. Would you really want to wait that long for Pfeffer? 72% FG efficiency in his second year makes him an ace ?
Last season (his 3rd) was Swayze's breakout/"ace" year.

[Wobbler]

Waters has been an elite punter since entering the league, but took a bit longer to kick at an elite level. How do you define when he was "developed"?

[paulwoods13]

72% FG efficiency in his second year makes him an ace ?
Last season (his 3rd) was Swayze's breakout/"ace" year.

Fair point as far as FGs go, no question. He was an outstanding punter in 2013 (46.5/43.4 net) and an outstanding kickoff man from Day 1. But his FG kicking was middle of the pack in Years 1 and 2.

[R.J]

Waters has been an elite punter since entering the league, but took a bit longer to kick at an elite level. How do you define when he was "developed"?Positive consistency IMO.


Fair point as far as FGs go, no question. He was an outstanding punter in 2013 (46.5/43.4 net) and an outstanding kickoff man from Day 1. But his FG kicking was middle of the pack in Years 1 and 2.No disagreement here.

[Gill The Thrill]

That penalty on McDonald not only cost the Redblacks the game, but also his own job. Cut today.

Remember he had those 2 fumbles returning punts vs the Stampeders in Calgary the previous week which really put the Redblacks (Rough Riders) out of that game early.