View Full Version : Fire Creehan immediately.
argotom
09-07-2015, 04:28 PM
After today's debacle and since it's getting worse every game, the defence in many categories remains dead last in the league.
Talk to Cory Chamblin or even though he left earlier this year under suspicious circumstances I would make a call to Tim Burke.
ArgoGabe22
09-07-2015, 04:30 PM
Burke left on his own (reasons unknown) so I really doubt he'll be back unless he sorted out whatever the issue was.
1argoholic
09-07-2015, 04:31 PM
Creehan didn't sign guys who were CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
argotom
09-07-2015, 04:40 PM
Creehan didn't sign guys who were CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes but it's his horrid schemes.
ArgoRavi
09-07-2015, 04:53 PM
Here is the million dollar question with the defence: Is it the scheme or is it the personnel or is it both? I personally don't have a lot of faith in Creehan given his past in this league. Whatever the issues are, the Argos have to use the upcoming bye week to start straightening things out. While the offence had its struggles today, the biggest problem with this football team is the defence.
Here is the million dollar question with the defence: Is it the scheme or is it the personnel or is it both? I personally don't have a lot of faith in Creehan given his past in this league. Whatever the issues are, the Argos have to use the upcoming bye week to start straightening things out. While the offence had its struggles today, the biggest problem with this football team is the defence.
It's both. However, Creehan's body of work is, to put it charitably, underwhelming.
argotom
09-07-2015, 05:07 PM
It's not like there has been improvement, in fact the last 3 games the teams have burned us for more then 300 yards passing.
Today it was 400 plus.
ArgoRavi
09-07-2015, 05:17 PM
It's both. However, Creehan's body of work is, to put it charitably, underwhelming.
I was wary of Creehan's hiring as well. Can his defence work better with the likes of Muamba, Ball and Carter or do we need to send Creehan out the door also? I suspect that the scheme is a greater problem than the personnel but I really don't know for sure.
Argo57
09-07-2015, 05:17 PM
It's not like there has been improvement, in fact the last 3 games the teams have burned us for more then 300 yards passing.
Today it was 400 plus.
Both
Schemes and defensive secondary play were a total joke today, they had no answers for Hamilton's offence whatsoever.
Worst part is the D players seemed increasingly frustrated as the game went on, I wonder if they are starting to figure out the fact that their DC has no clue.
It's not like there has been improvement, in fact the last 3 games the teams have burned us for more then 300 yards passing.
Today it was 400 plus.
We can look forward to 500 passing yards next week.
doubleblue
09-07-2015, 05:41 PM
Can not recall in a while, so many receivers being so wide open. Creehans zone defense is not working.
Here is the million dollar question with the defence: Is it the scheme or is it the personnel or is it both? I personally don't have a lot of faith in Creehan given his past in this league. Whatever the issues are, the Argos have to use the upcoming bye week to start straightening things out. While the offence had its struggles today, the biggest problem with this football team is the defence.
Both, while Creehan is easily the biggest problem, there are some personnel issues as well. Jefferson and Black are the only bonafide starters in the backfield, sam lb is a issue and the dline can't seem to create any pressure.
Well as most of you know from the @argofans twitter account that I'm not too crazy about Creehan so I cannot back down now. The blitzing schemes don't seem creative in the slightest, and blown coverage throughout the entire first half is brutal even by his standards. As much as I think that Milanovich is a better coach than Cortez, I do still think that Creehan has the potential to sink the Argos like the 2012 Ticats were sunk under his watch. I realize that the way he ascended to DC wasn't the easiest from the Argos perspective, but he's shown me nothing to make me suggest he isn't the failure like he was in Hamilton and Winnipeg.
The personnel also deserve some of the blame for certain--but doesn't that also fall at the feet of Barker? Barker does a decent job of recruiting offensively, but his defensive recruiting hasn't been nearly as good.
My heart says Creehan's go to go, but my head knows it, unfortunately, isn't as simple as that.
paulwoods13
09-07-2015, 08:39 PM
Barker does a decent job of recruiting offensively, but his defensive recruiting hasn't been nearly as good.
That appears to be correct, altho I'd like to see what some of these guys could do in a different scheme. At this point I'm inclined to think the problem is 50% scheme and 50% personnel, but that's a guess.
Argo57
09-07-2015, 08:47 PM
Well as most of you know from the @argofans twitter account that I'm not too crazy about Creehan so I cannot back down now. The blitzing schemes don't seem creative in the slightest, and blown coverage throughout the entire first half is brutal even by his standards. As much as I think that Milanovich is a better coach than Cortez, I do still think that Creehan has the potential to sink the Argos like the 2012 Ticats were sunk under his watch. I realize that the way he ascended to DC wasn't the easiest from the Argos perspective, but he's shown me nothing to make me suggest he isn't the failure like he was in Hamilton and Winnipeg.
The personnel also deserve some of the blame for certain--but doesn't that also fall at the feet of Barker? Barker does a decent job of recruiting offensively, but his defensive recruiting hasn't been nearly as good.
My heart says Creehan's go to go, but my head knows it, unfortunately, isn't as simple as that.
I loved Creehan in Hamilton because he was one of the most brutal coordinators I have seen and Hamilton's D in 2012 was terrible, little did we expect that 3 years later he would be in Toronto screwing us up.
AF87 correct, he is shaping up to being a major factor in sinking this ship, there is still 8 games left now and many signs are pointing to Toronto being life and death to qualify for the playoffs, Ottawa and Montreal are right there as well.
The Argonaut secondary has actually been pretty shitty since the 2012 Grey Cup, player turnover (for many reasons) and coaches moving on have all contributed to this but this talent level simply isn't there, explains why stiffs like Agnew and the like are taking the field week after week.
Are people seriously blaming Barker for the defense ?
Argo57
09-07-2015, 08:59 PM
Are people seriously blaming Barker for the defense ?
Depends what you think the issue is, lack of talent or crappy defensive system.
gilthethrill
09-07-2015, 09:12 PM
Just watching the Calgary Edmonton game on PVR. Last week James Franklin looked all world (TSN was in love with him), but today he looked ordinary to say the least....pulled in the 3rd quarter.
Fire Creehan and promote Younger to acting DC.
Why not? It cannot get any worse, and this change in personnel may become the start of something good.
ArgoRavi
09-07-2015, 09:55 PM
Are people seriously blaming Barker for the defense ?
I am not sure that Barker is to blame. We have had three different defensive coordinators in three years which is not a recipe for success on defence no matter how good recruiting is. Lack of continuity has hurt enormously IMO. If Burke had remained defensive coordinator this year I think that we would be much further ahead on defence.
Conversely, our offence - which is still one of the better ones in the league despite what some might think - has had continuity in coaching and schemes for the last three to four years.
AngeloV
09-07-2015, 10:21 PM
I'm still not convinced it's 100% personnel. They can use new guys at the half back and WILL positions, but I think the personnel not bad in the other 9 spots. It is almost as though the Argos give away what D they are in during the QB's pre snap reads. That (predictability) is coaching IMHO.
larz-7
09-07-2015, 10:35 PM
Fire Creehan and promote Younger to acting DC.
Why not? It cannot get any worse, and this change in personnel may become the start of something good.
lets do it .
ArgoGabe22
09-07-2015, 10:47 PM
D-Line seems to have no push whatsoever and when they do get pressure, they're a second too late. Also AK Owusu-Ansah looked lost today and a lot of guys just can't tackle. I'm not sure how much you can say that's due to schemes.
larz-7
09-07-2015, 11:08 PM
D-Line seems to have no push whatsoever and when they do get pressure, they're a second too late. Also AK Owusu-Ansah looked lost today and a lot of guys just can't tackle. I'm not sure how much you can say that's due to schemes.
Perhaps frustration .i will give you tackling is bad way to often.When you line up on D pretty much the same way ever other play, everyone knows what you are up too.Its amazing we have as many sacks as we do,disguise this D abit and i think they would eat qbs
I was wary of Creehan's hiring as well. Can his defence work better with the likes of Muamba, Ball and Carter or do we need to send Creehan out the door also? I suspect that the scheme is a greater problem than the personnel but I really don't know for sure.
If he was coaching any other team ... you would be having zero doubt that it's all on him. He was utter crap before and sadly nothing has changed.
Milo was in a tough spot though considering when Burke left. Hard to find anyone decent at that time of year.
D-Gap-Willie
09-08-2015, 04:14 AM
If he was coaching any other team ... you would be having zero doubt that it's all on him. He was utter crap before and sadly nothing has changed.
Milo was in a tough spot though considering when Burke left. Hard to find anyone decent at that time of year.
OK, so Creehan is not much good as DC. However, do you stop to think who he works for ? You say " Milo was in a tough spot" but why was Creehan hired initially ? do you think that his hiring was kept secret from Milanovitch. The Head Coach is the boss -- he is responsible for the mess, no matter whose incompetence creates it. Sorry, but I don't see Milanovitch firmly taking charge to change things, or at the very least trying to help Creehan. He may be a decent OC, but he is proving out to be a weak Head Coach now when a strong hand is need.
Milo, step up, face the problems and solve them - it's your buck !
ArgoRavi
09-08-2015, 09:31 AM
If he was coaching any other team ... you would be having zero doubt that it's all on him. He was utter crap before and sadly nothing has changed.
Milo was in a tough spot though considering when Burke left. Hard to find anyone decent at that time of year.
Read between the lines, Ron. I am trying to be diplomatic regarding Creehan but I think you can see which way I am leaning.
Johno27
09-08-2015, 10:45 AM
"If he was coaching any other team ... you would be having zero doubt that it's all on him. He was utter crap before and sadly nothing has changed.
Milo was in a tough spot though considering when Burke left. Hard to find anyone decent at that time of year."
Read between the lines, Ron. I am trying to be diplomatic regarding Creehan but I think you can see which way I am leaning.
FYI, the topic of Creehan's status and Burke's resignation came up during an interview between Justin Dunk and Drew Edwards and Arash Madani last week (3DownNation, Podcast, Ep. 11, https://soundcloud.com/3downnation).
Madani said: "They don’t like Casey Creehan there in Toronto…Tim Burke resigned a day or two after the draft …what I was told there is Barker did not like Burke’s draft evaluation, wanted him out of there…"
shayman
09-08-2015, 11:35 AM
Are people seriously blaming Barker for the defense ?
Of course not! It's Chris Rudge's fault!
AngeloV
09-08-2015, 12:55 PM
OK, so Creehan is not much good as DC. However, do you stop to think who he works for ? You say " Milo was in a tough spot" but why was Creehan hired initially ? do you think that his hiring was kept secret from Milanovitch. The Head Coach is the boss -- he is responsible for the mess, no matter whose incompetence creates it. Sorry, but I don't see Milanovitch firmly taking charge to change things, or at the very least trying to help Creehan. He may be a decent OC, but he is proving out to be a weak Head Coach now when a strong hand is need.
Milo, step up, face the problems and solve them - it's your buck !
He was hired initially by Burke. DC's usually hire some of their own positional coaches, and perhaps he is a good positional coach. I, personally think he gets, and deserves no respect from his players. If you ever go to practice, he's not hard to find. Nothing but degrading and loud 4 letter words directed towards his players.
It's definitely time to cut him loose. With the bye after Friday's game, it would be a perfect time. I don't see it happening before Friday.
bigzee19
09-08-2015, 01:01 PM
If someone could just buy Creehan the new Madden game maybe our D has a chance at stopping the Cats on Friday. Maybe he hasn't gotten a new version for a few years.......Just saying
Fire Creehan and promote Younger to acting DC.
Why not? It cannot get any worse, and this change in personnel may become the start of something good.
Pete Kuharchek would be the guy I would pick if promoting from within, the only bright spot on the Andrus coaching staff.
AngeloV
09-08-2015, 02:13 PM
Pete Kuharchek would be the guy I would pick if promoting from within, the only bright spot on the Andrus coaching staff.
I'd be good with that for the rest of the year. I don't think Younger has been a position coach long enough to deserve the promotion.
I'd be good with that for the rest of the year. I don't think Younger has been a position coach long enough to deserve the promotion.
Our defensive backfield has been horrid for awhile now. JY is the db coach, yet seems to be given a free pass around here and on top of that had a shout out for the DC job.
paulwoods13
09-08-2015, 04:03 PM
I certainly wouldn't elevate Younger. If and when we replace Creehan, I want a DC with a track record. I personally think Chamblin would be good but I may be alone in that view. Not opposed to Kuharchek on an interim basis. O'Shea is probably going to be looking for work in the off-season and could be considered altho he has never been a DC and has been a poor HC, IMO.
Our defensive backfield has been horrid for awhile now. JY is the db coach, yet seems to be given a free pass around here and on top of that had a shout out for the DC job.
I don't dispute the contrary stance, although we don't know how Younger would manage this greater responsibility (and in a new context through addition by subtraction with Creehan's dismissal).
Steinauer, for example, made the transition and has done quite well.
OV Argo
09-08-2015, 04:17 PM
Depends what you think the issue is, lack of talent or crappy defensive system.
A lot of both me thinks; but, a defence needs some continuity, experience playing together and veteran leadership. Barker must seem to think the "talent" he can find is so good you can just throw it together out there and it will be fine ??? : mostly rookie DBs out there with Gabriel and his 2 years of pro experience as the veteran leader of the secondary ??? = no wonder they are getting torched and worst in the league at giving up yards. Foley is the only real proven CFL/Canadian football vet on this D, and that might help but IMO it's not enough. Coulda signed a vet FA or two this off-season, particularly one for the D-backfield.
Combine lack of experience and leadership with a DC who is clueless = recipe for disaster and we saw it last game.
I certainly wouldn't elevate Younger. If and when we replace Creehan, I want a DC with a track record. I personally think Chamblin would be good but I may be alone in that view. Not opposed to Kuharchek on an interim basis. O'Shea is probably going to be looking for work in the off-season and could be considered altho he has never been a DC and has been a poor HC, IMO.
Chamblin took over the Riders defence around Labour Day weekend last season, in those 19 games (Reg seas + 1 playoff game ) until he was fired, the Sask D allow on average 30 points.
As you point out O'Shea has never been a DC, should be low on the list should Milo end up looking to hire shortly or in the off season.
I'm still not convinced it's 100% personnel. They can use new guys at the half back and WILL positions, but I think the personnel not bad in the other 9 spots. It is almost as though the Argos give away what D they are in during the QB's pre snap reads. That (predictability) is coaching IMHO.
Do you mean Sam ?
Greenwood has looked really good at WILL IMO.
I don't dispute the contrary stance, although we don't know how Younger would manage this greater responsibility (and in a new context through addition by subtraction with Creehan's dismissal).
Steinauer, for example, made the transition and has done quite well.
Steinauer took over from Chip Garber as interm DC of the Argonauts in 2011 and his defense was pretty crappy. Even his first year in Hamilton the D didn't look good, it started to really turn around midway through last season and seems to have gotten better this season. The point is these guys take time, thrusting Younger into the DC spot in his first year as a position coach in the CFL is probably not a good idea. Also Creehan's defence is atrocious and his zone defence makes all 3 corps of the D look worse than they probably are. However, the defensive backfield is the group that has looked the worst as of late and Younger is the guy in charge of that group.
Argo57
09-08-2015, 06:41 PM
A lot of both me thinks; but, a defence needs some continuity, experience playing together and veteran leadership. Barker must seem to think the "talent" he can find is so good you can just throw it together out there and it will be fine ??? : mostly rookie DBs out there with Gabriel and his 2 years of pro experience as the veteran leader of the secondary ??? = no wonder they are getting torched and worst in the league at giving up yards. Foley is the only real proven CFL/Canadian football vet on this D, and that might help but IMO it's not enough. Coulda signed a vet FA or two this off-season, particularly one for the D-backfield.
Combine lack of experience and leadership with a DC who is clueless = recipe for disaster and we saw it last game.
Agreed OV.
Actually thought I heard Creehan yelling "ok guys were playing zone" from the sidelines yesterday!!
Creehan is a dumb ass, Cortez looked like an asshole chewing Creehan out on the Hamilton sideline in 2012, looking back Ol Georgie probably had a point.
Argo57
09-08-2015, 06:44 PM
I don't dispute the contrary stance, although we don't know how Younger would manage this greater responsibility (and in a new context through addition by subtraction with Creehan's dismissal).
Steinauer, for example, made the transition and has done quite well.
Leave Younger where he is, great player but as a coach hasn't proven anything as of yet.
Sad part for Younger is he is the DB coach under a lousy DC.
AngeloV
09-08-2015, 10:28 PM
Do you mean Sam ?
Greenwood has looked really good at WILL IMO.
Yes, definitely meant SAM, but if the concussion rumours are true, then likely both.
ArgoRavi
09-09-2015, 01:41 AM
Leave Younger where he is, great player but as a coach hasn't proven anything as of yet.
Sad part for Younger is he is the DB coach under a lousy DC.
I thought that this was an interesting quote from one of the CFL insiders that Kirk Penton of the Winnipeg Sun spoke to this week:
"(Argos defensive co-ordinator) Casey Creehan is a front-seven guy, and they hired a rookie type of coach (Jordan Younger) to coach their secondary. That combination is why you see teams like Hamilton with receivers wide open all day. We play them in October, so I hope they stay the same."
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/08/cfl-blitz-with-labour-day-in-past-its-time-to-get-serious
Argo57
09-09-2015, 06:22 AM
I thought that this was an interesting quote from one of the CFL insiders that Kirk Penton of the Winnipeg Sun spoke to this week:
"(Argos defensive co-ordinator) Casey Creehan is a front-seven guy, and they hired a rookie type of coach (Jordan Younger) to coach their secondary. That combination is why you see teams like Hamilton with receivers wide open all day. We play them in October, so I hope they stay the same."
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/08/cfl-blitz-with-labour-day-in-past-its-time-to-get-serious
Pretty much says it all Ravi.
Most of these predicaments can be traced back to the Mickey Mouse penny pinching ways of the current owner, these are the types of guys you are left with (Creehan).
I think Creehan will be gone after Friday's game if the Argos get slaughtered again (which is very possible)!!
Pretty much says it all Ravi.
Most of these predicaments can be traced back to the Mickey Mouse penny pinching ways of the current owner, these are the types of guys you are left with (Creehan).
I think Creehan will be gone after Friday's game if the Argos get slaughtered again (which is very possible)!!
That the Argos typically do not play well at "home" won't help. I'm expecting a generally similar result as the recent shellacking.
I thought that this was an interesting quote from one of the CFL insiders that Kirk Penton of the Winnipeg Sun spoke to this week:
"(Argos defensive co-ordinator) Casey Creehan is a front-seven guy, and they hired a rookie type of coach (Jordan Younger) to coach their secondary. That combination is why you see teams like Hamilton with receivers wide open all day. We play them in October, so I hope they stay the same."
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/08/cfl-blitz-with-labour-day-in-past-its-time-to-get-serious
For a guy who is allegedly a "front-seven guy" I certainly don't see anything special from the front-seven. But, then again...Creehan!
Is Younger giver a free pass around here because he was a former player ?
Is Younger giver a free pass around here because he was a former player ?
A bit maybe, but maybe he's also given a free pass because he's a rookie DB coach saddled with the worst DC in recent CFL history?
paulwoods13
09-09-2015, 11:37 AM
Who's giving him a free pass? He's not coming under heavy criticism from me because I hold the co-ordinator and/or bad personnel responsible for a unit's failings. I also wouldn't blame the running backs coach (if we had one -- do we have one?) for our failure to run the ball effectively. It's on the co-ordinator. The one exception would be offensive line play -- I think that falls primarily on the shoulders of the position coach because of the nature of o-line play.
johnnyice
09-09-2015, 02:44 PM
Definitely not Burke ! is game has left him ( after he left the ALS....)
Definitely not Burke ! is game has left him ( after he left the ALS....)
Burke's defence looked pretty good in Winnipeg, IIRC Burke's defence (Als and Bombers) made it to the Grey Cup three years in a row.
Burke is probably one of the top 3 DCs in the CFL, Thorpe and Stubler being the others IMO. Not saying I want Burke here (I would much rather see Benevides), but Burke's defence speaks for itself.
Who's giving him a free pass? He's not coming under heavy criticism from me because I hold the co-ordinator and/or bad personnel responsible for a unit's failings. I also wouldn't blame the running backs coach (if we had one -- do we have one?) for our failure to run the ball effectively. It's on the co-ordinator. The one exception would be offensive line play -- I think that falls primarily on the shoulders of the position coach because of the nature of o-line play.
I'd put 80% on Creehan and 20% on Younger, the Lbs have looked good for the most part and IMO the issue there is the lack of talent at SAM. The dline gets very little push which I put on young talent within the interior and Creehan as he's the dline coach as well. There's no question that Creehan should take a lot of the blame even in the backfield, but a lot those holes we're seeing is not necessarily due to lack of talent in the backfield or even schemes 100% but also the players not being properly coached up on where they're supposed to be and that's on Younger just as much as Creehan IMO.
I'd put 80% on Creehan and 20% on Younger, the Lbs have looked good for the most part and IMO the issue there is the lack of talent at SAM. The dline gets very little push which I put on young talent within the interior and Creehan as he's the dline coach as well. There's no question that Creehan should take a lot of the blame even in the backfield, but a lot those holes we're seeing is not necessarily due to lack of talent in the backfield or even schemes 100% but also the players not being properly coached up on where they're supposed to be and that's on Younger just as much as Creehan IMO.
Good points.
Now, I've only seen a couple of games straight through, but I have the impression that the DEs have not got the job done. If there weren't a ratio, well...
Is this others' impression as well?
Younger should be doing a good job - if he can teach - given his extensive experience means that he's pretty much seen it all.
argonaut11xx
09-09-2015, 07:08 PM
The defense cant TACKLE....
The secondary was the worst i have EVER seen in the labour day game, (never have i seen so many EASY 2nd down conversions)
The Argo defense SUCKS...more holes than swiss cheese in a pen full of hungry mice.
As a fan i was embarrassed to watch the labour day game with a group of friends.
The Argo's defense was NOT a PRO calibre defense
jerrym
09-09-2015, 08:03 PM
Fire Creehan yesterday.
AngeloV
09-09-2015, 08:27 PM
Fire Creehan yesterday.
^This.
The secondary was the worst i have EVER seen in the labour day game, (never have i seen so many EASY 2nd down conversions)
Pretty sure they don't line up scared to death of getting beat deep and purposely give that space. That has to be scheme or defensive calls that the other team is picking up prior to the snap. You can talk about keeping the QB in the pocket all you want, but when the QB knows what he's doing pre snap, it never even becomes an issue. We do have good D-lineman, but you can't get to the QB when the ball is out that quickly.
Fire Creehan yesterday.
Shouldn't have been hired in the first place.
argotom
09-09-2015, 10:23 PM
We know how the entire game was horrid for this Defence, but there was one play that stands out with the Cats down on our about 7 or 8 yard line.
Obvious passing down for Zach, meanwhile the DB's are playing their usual non aggressive drop back zone cover and sure enough the pass is to the goal line with an easy TD.
Heck I played flag football more aggressive.
I don't think the tackling was an issue in the game on Monday, it's kind of hard to be when the Ticats have a ridiculous cushion on every play.
gilthethrill
09-10-2015, 12:24 PM
I don't think the tackling was an issue in the game on Monday, it's kind of hard to be when the Ticats have a ridiculous cushion on every play.
Agreed. In addition, it's hard to pressure the QB when his receivers are open so quickly. How many offensive players have won "Shaw Player of the Week"awards while facing the Argo D? I have lost count. If there is a change at DC, is it possible Creehan could go back to DL coach?
Argo57
09-10-2015, 07:49 PM
Agreed. In addition, it's hard to pressure the QB when his receivers are open so quickly. How many offensive players have won "Shaw Player of the Week"awards while facing the Argo D? I have lost count. If there is a change at DC, is it possible Creehan could go back to DL coach?
Another clue to the quality of our D is our play against rookie QB's (Marve and Franklin) for example, these guys look like all stars when playing the Argos yet in subsequent games facing defensive systems designed by Stubler, Chris Jones, Noel Thorpe and the like look like overmatched rookies in over their heads.
Another clue to the quality of our D is our play against rookie QB's (Marve and Franklin) for example, these guys look like all stars when playing the Argos yet in subsequent games facing defensive systems designed by Stubler, Chris Jones, Noel Thorpe and the like look like overmatched rookies in over their heads.
All things being equal, one could chalk that partially to the fact that the other teams had film on the guy while the Argos did not. However, with this defense I don't know how much can be attributed to the film reasons or even if it can be at all.
Argo57
09-11-2015, 06:22 PM
All things being equal, one could chalk that partially to the fact that the other teams had film on the guy while the Argos did not. However, with this defense I don't know how much can be attributed to the film reasons or even if it can be at all.
Or most likely this Argonaut D is easier to predict and game plan against, savvy DC's like Thorpe, Stubler Jones etc seem to know how to confuse inexperienced QB's while we don't seem to have this knack.
argotom
09-11-2015, 11:49 PM
Should be gone after another fiasco tonight on Defense, especially since there is a bye week.
PullTogether73
09-12-2015, 12:20 AM
Should be gone after another fiasco tonight on Defense, especially since there is a bye week.
????
Argos defence seemed to play much better tonight than I saw in the past two games.
The defense played better in the first half, but cannot say the same for the second half.
Fire Creehan immediately.
The performance of the defence... Milanovich gilds the lily in his post-game press conference. Not good.
The performance of the defence... Milanovich gilds the lily in his post-game press conference. Not good.
Agreed. I didn't get any sense that Creehan's job is in distress.
ArgoRavi
09-13-2015, 01:12 AM
Agreed. I didn't get any sense that Creehan's job is in distress.
It is easy for us to say to fire Creehan but the Argos would still have to come up - and pay - for a replacement unless they promote from within and go with one less coach. I can't see Braley being anxious to pay a coach who isn't working for him. On top of that, we all know that he has little passion for the Argos.
It is easy for us to say to fire Creehan but the Argos would still have to come up - and pay - for a replacement unless they promote from within and go with one less coach. I can't see Braley being anxious to pay a coach who isn't working for him. On top of that, we all know that he has little passion for the Argos.
Then promote from within and go with one less coach.
ArgoRavi
09-14-2015, 11:11 PM
I hate to break it to many of you but I don't think that Creehan is going anywhere this season. I suspect that the Argos would have fired him by Monday at the latest if they were going to do so at this point in the season. That doesn't mean that they might not get some of the other defensive coaches more involved in the game-planning. Who knows what adjustments the Argos will make on defence coming out of the bye week even if Creehan's firing isn't one of them?
I hate to break it to many of you but I don't think that Creehan is going anywhere this season. I suspect that the Argos would have fired him by Monday at the latest if they were going to do so at this point in the season. That doesn't mean that they might not get some of the other defensive coaches more involved in the game-planning. Who knows what adjustments the Argos will make on defence coming out of the bye week even if Creehan's firing isn't one of them?
Unfortunately, you are probably right. You could tell by Milanovich's comments on Friday.
Unfortunately, you are probably right. You could tell by Milanovich's comments on Friday.
True. This is the strategy. However, a couple more stinkers from the D and tactically it'll be goodbye Creehan.
gilthethrill
09-15-2015, 09:52 AM
True. This is the strategy. However, a couple more stinkers from the D and tactically it'll be goodbye Creehan.
If the Argos were going to part ways with Creehan it would have happened yesterday, during this bye week. He is here for the rest of the season, no matter how the defence performs.
1argoholic
09-15-2015, 10:17 AM
They most likely have no money to do squat.
If the Argos were going to part ways with Creehan it would have happened yesterday, during this bye week. He is here for the rest of the season, no matter how the defence performs.
I hope we don't find out, although it would be interesting...
AngeloV
09-15-2015, 01:59 PM
If the Argos were going to part ways with Creehan it would have happened yesterday, during this bye week. He is here for the rest of the season, no matter how the defence performs.
I agree with you. Probably the reason they never went outside of the organization to replace Burke in the first place. Likely any major coaching or player hirings won't happen until next season.
I agree with you. Probably the reason they never went outside of the organization to replace Burke in the first place. Likely any major coaching or player hirings won't happen until next season.
I thought the reason they never went outside the organization was that Burke's resignation happened to close to the start of training camp.
AngeloV
09-16-2015, 10:10 AM
I thought the reason they never went outside the organization was that Burke's resignation happened to close to the start of training camp.
That may be the party line, but I'm sure they also didn't get the ok to go after someone with a better track record. The bottom line for the owner was that now he is saving a major salary.
That may be the party line, but I'm sure they also didn't get the ok to go after someone with a better track record. The bottom line for the owner was that now he is saving a major salary.
It is certainly possible.
Johno27
10-14-2015, 02:47 PM
Should the Argo defense under Casey Creehan continue to improve (and possibly lead to ultimate success), what do you project will be his fate at season's end?
I still want Creehan gone at seasons end, there are much better options out there, but I don't see that happening, as I doubt Milo & Co. want to bring in yet another defensive scheme.
Argo57
10-14-2015, 05:58 PM
Should the Argo defense under Casey Creehan continue to improve (and possibly lead to ultimate success), what do you project will be his fate at season's end?
Get rid of him, better options out there.
larz-7
11-15-2015, 04:32 PM
was this his last game?i like alot of the guys on defense on this team and think we need a tweek here and there .
ArgoRavi
11-15-2015, 04:34 PM
was this his last game?i like alot of the guys on defense on this team and think we need a tweek here and there .
I thought that he improved in the second half of the season as did the entire defence but I would go in a different direction. I like the personnel that the Argos have on defence but I would look for another defensive coordinator.
paulwoods13
11-15-2015, 04:45 PM
We might be able to do better -- although that's not guaranteed; a replacement could also be worse -- and for sure he needs to be evaluated dispassionately. If we can get someone better, do it. If not, let's hope he develops into a top-notch coordinator by the time next season rolls around. He has some ability but might be better suited as a position coach.
I doubt this was Creehan's last game, I could easily see him back next season. Personally I want Younger and Creehan gone, but I'm sure wanting continuity will play a big factor in the decisions to be/should be made.
ArgoGabe22
11-15-2015, 05:46 PM
Word from everyone's favourite, Arash Madani was that the Argos never wanted him as a DC and most don't like him so if true I wouldn't be surprised to see him gone. IF TRUE. Now, why would they have hired him in the first place if they didn't like him?
Argo57
11-15-2015, 06:09 PM
Word from everyone's favourite, Arash Madani was that the Argos never wanted him as a DC and most don't like him so if true I wouldn't be surprised to see him gone. IF TRUE. Now, why would they have hired him in the first place if they didn't like him?
He was hired as a positional coach in 2014 and named as an emergency as DC when Burke quit at the last minute before this season.
This defence isn't good enough as it stands so I say go for a change.
timlb01
11-15-2015, 06:59 PM
I think we need to understand what happened late in the 3rd quarter and 4th. Was it his play calling? Was it poor execution due to personnel? I think he blew the play calling not being more aggressive on the Masoli.
Another factor was the amount of yards allowed on special team returns. What the hell... can we not get this under control? Untimely penalties and too many of them! Ownership stability and a proper budget will help a great deal for a run at the cup next year. Lets see, I like Barker and Milanovich. Past couple of years it has been very trying for anyone under the circumstances. I think they both have shown class and great leadership. No practice facility in 2014, home game issues in 2015 and who knows what else happened behind the scenes we don't know about.
ArgoGabe22
11-15-2015, 07:02 PM
He was hired as a positional coach in 2014 and named as an emergency as DC when Burke quit at the last minute before this season.
This defence isn't good enough as it stands so I say go for a change.
I get that but why was he even hired as a LB coach in the first place? I'm sure there were other possible candidates. Unless he was desperate for a low paying job (in football terms) and no one wanted to work for the Argos.
Argo57
11-15-2015, 07:13 PM
I get that but why was he even hired as a LB coach in the first place? I'm sure there were other possible candidates. Unless he was desperate for a low paying job (in football terms) and no one wanted to work for the Argos.
He may very well be a good positional coach teaching technique etc but sometimes that doesn't translate into being a good coordinator overseeing and formulating a system and game plan.
Truth as previously stated they had no choice this season.
As to why the hired him to begin with, who knows why when considering his track record, you may be right perhaps he was a cheap hire.
I get that but why was he even hired as a LB coach in the first place? I'm sure there were other possible candidates. Unless he was desperate for a low paying job (in football terms) and no one wanted to work for the Argos.
Creehan is/was right hand guy, that's why he was brought in.
ArgoRavi
11-15-2015, 08:02 PM
Creehan is/was right hand guy, that's why he was brought in.
Exactly. Creehan was Burke's right-hand guy and the only person capable of taking over and running Burke's defence at the last minute when Burke left.
Exactly. Creehan was Burke's right-hand guy and the only person capable of taking over and running Burke's defence at the last minute when Burke left.
Didn't someone post on here that Burke left because Barker wasn't crazy about him, or something like that ?
So if that was the case and whomever "they' is don't like Creehan either, why were either of them brought in and kept in the first place ?
Word from everyone's favourite, Arash Madani was that the Argos never wanted him as a DC and most don't like him so if true I wouldn't be surprised to see him gone. IF TRUE. Now, why would they have hired him in the first place if they didn't like him?
Is there a tweet or something for this ?
I'm interested to see if there's some more info.
That info from Madani came out around the time of the home-and-home with Hamilton if memory serves.
You were facing a 4th string QB: YOU BLOODY WELL KNEW THAT THEY WEREN'T A THREAT TO PASS THE BALL SO WHAT DO YOU DO? YOU ALLOW NEARLY 150 RUSHING YARDS ON THE FLIPPING GROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That info from Madani came out around the time of the home-and-home with Hamilton if memory serves.
You were facing a 4th string QB: YOU BLOODY WELL KNEW THAT THEY WEREN'T A THREAT TO PASS THE BALL SO WHAT DO YOU DO? YOU ALLOW NEARLY 150 RUSHING YARDS ON THE FLIPPING GROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just went back in the thread and found the posts. Yeah, I don't know what to say, weird situation to say the least.
ArgoRavi
11-15-2015, 10:11 PM
Didn't someone post on here that Burke left because Barker wasn't crazy about him, or something like that ?
So if that was the case and whomever "they' is don't like Creehan either, why were either of them brought in and kept in the first place ?
The official word was that Burke had a family matter to take care of which is why he had to leave suddenly. If Barker wasn't crazy about Burke, I suspect that Burke would have been fired well before the eve of training camp.
The official word was that Burke had a family matter to take care of which is why he had to leave suddenly. If Barker wasn't crazy about Burke, I suspect that Burke would have been fired well before the eve of training camp.
I'm not disagreeing Ravi, but there was this.
FYI, the topic of Creehan's status and Burke's resignation came up during an interview between Justin Dunk and Drew Edwards and Arash Madani last week (3DownNation, Podcast, Ep. 11, https://soundcloud.com/3downnation).
Madani said: "They don’t like Casey Creehan there in Toronto…Tim Burke resigned a day or two after the draft …what I was told there is Barker did not like Burke’s draft evaluation, wanted him out of there…"
AngeloV
11-15-2015, 11:01 PM
I'm not disagreeing Ravi, but there was this.
Of course, it is Madani that reported that.
For the record, I hope they go a different way at DC too. I have mentioned that hearing Creehan drop F Bomb after F Bomb at practice wears thin. It is not easy to respect someone like that, and without respect, your lost in this business.
When the Argos tied the game at 22-22. The Cats fan buds around me all relayed ... "We have faith in Creehan that his prevent will save the day for us."
They remember him well.
I have mentioned that hearing Creehan drop F Bomb after F Bomb at practice wears thin. It is not easy to respect someone like that, and without respect, your lost in this business.
I know this also became an issue when he was in Winnipeg, not sure about Hamilton though. Either way Creehan has had 3 opportunities to become a DC in the CFL and still hasn't figured out how to be a good one.
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/16/give-argos-milanovich-green-light-to-bring-in-best-coaches
“You don’t want to have staff turnover no more than you want player turnover,’’ said Milanovich. “Continuity is an important thing in football, but when you lose a Chris Jones, Mike O’Shea, Orlondo Steinauer, a Jason Maas, that’s an inevitable part of the business.
I hope Milanovich isn't going to keep guys like Creehan, Younger and Brady just for continuities sake. Continuity is good when you have the right people, when you don't, you shouldn't expect to see improvement.
I know this also became an issue when he was in Winnipeg, not sure about Hamilton though. Either way Creehan has had 3 opportunities to become a DC in the CFL and still hasn't figured out how to be a good one.
I believe it was an issue in Hamilton as well.
ArgoGabe22
11-18-2015, 03:20 PM
http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/16/give-argos-milanovich-green-light-to-bring-in-best-coaches
I hope Milanovich isn't going to keep guys like Creehan, Younger and Brady just for continuities sake. Continuity is good when you have the right people, when you don't, you shouldn't expect to see improvement.
Just curious why you're not happy with JY? He's only a position coach (DB) after having the same position in the CIS. It's not like he somehow taught the DB to fall on the Bakari Grant TD.
Just curious why you're not happy with JY? He's only a position coach (DB) after having the same position in the CIS. It's not like he somehow taught the DB to fall on the Bakari Grant TD.
JY is a big reason as to why the Argonauts db's would give receivers 10 yard cushions while playing zone.
Milanovich in correct, at least in principal about continuity, but this cannot and should not apply to Casey Creehan.
AngeloV
11-18-2015, 03:34 PM
JY is a big reason as to why the Argonauts db's would give receivers 10 yard cushions while playing zone.
Not necessarily. It could have a lot to do with each individual player's comfort level. Smaller DB's (which we have a t HB) tend to do this more because they can easily be bumped off coverage when playing tight.
Not necessarily. It could have a lot to do with each individual player's comfort level. Smaller DB's (which we have a t HB) tend to do this more because they can easily be bumped off coverage when playing tight.
Based on conversations the that I've had, JY is a big reason for it.
AngeloV
11-18-2015, 03:38 PM
Based on conversations the that I've had, JY is a big reason for it.
Interesting. Might also have to do with his lack of faith in the personnel.
Of course, he also played in Rich Stubler's system which was against giving up the big play.
Based on conversations the that I've had, JY is a big reason for it.
Conversations with whom?
Conversations with whom?
Players and I'll leave it at that.
Of course, he also played in Rich Stubler's system which was against giving up the big play.
http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa458/marionscott3/right-on-the-nose.gif
Interesting. Might also have to do with his lack of faith in the personnel.
Of course, he also played in Rich Stubler's system which was against giving up the big play.
Except when you tackle as poorly as the Argos did at times this season.
paulwoods13
11-18-2015, 03:56 PM
Players and I'll leave it at that.
PLEASE assure us you are not Area51 in sheep's clothing . . .
ArgoRavi
11-18-2015, 03:56 PM
I remember Orlando Steinauer coming under a lot of criticism on here back in 2011 when he took over as defensive co-ordinator for the last half of that season. It takes time to learn anything including coaching at the pro level.
PLEASE assure us you are not Area51 in sheep's clothing . . .
:)
Interestingly enough (and his tune may have changed), I didn't notice as much venom towards the Argos defensive system/players out of Area 51 from his posts on Riderfans than what we would've seen here 2011-2012.
PLEASE assure us you are not Area51 in sheep's clothing . . .
https://media.giphy.com/media/Fn7q3cMgPZmqk/giphy.gif
I'm not. While I'd really prefer not to go into details, I've spoken to a few players on the team and some others across the League, who hinted very strongly that Younger loves his cushy zone. Although in fairness, I should also mention that some players not on the Argonauts, mentioned they believe the problem was also that the Argos didn't have guys that could play man to man. The word slow was used often.
ArgoGabe22
11-18-2015, 04:03 PM
:)
Interestingly enough (and his tune may have changed), I didn't notice as much venom towards the Argos defensive system/players out of Area 51 from his posts on Riderfans than what we would've seen here 2011-2012.
Does anyone know how Area51's 1v1 with Byron Parker ended. That was a matchup for the ages!
:)
Interestingly enough (and his tune may have changed), I didn't notice as much venom towards the Argos defensive system/players out of Area 51 from his posts on Riderfans than what we would've seen here 2011-2012.
Probably because his brother likes playing for Creehan.
I remember that 1v1 got the then FOA site some press in the National Post. Nobody on this site at least were aware who Area 51 really was. I believe that article was the start of the separation of FOA and Argofans.
ArgoGabe22
11-24-2015, 09:13 PM
Word is Creehan isn't expected to be back and that Ray has not yet had any contract talks with the Argos. Both were from tweets via Arash Madani (rolls eyes).
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Early Grey Cup chatter: Casey Creehan likely out as Argos D-coordinator; am told Corey Chamblin hasn't spoken to Toronto about DC gig. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a></p>— Arash Madani (@ArashMadani) <a href="https://twitter.com/ArashMadani/status/669289168325865472">November 24, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I hope Chamblin isn't brought in, honestly I'd rather Creehan stay than have Chamblin ruining the defence.
Antwon
11-24-2015, 10:17 PM
I hope Chamblin isn't brought in, honestly I'd rather Creehan stay than have Chamblin ruining the defence.[/QUOTE]
Benevedes gets my vote.
Benevedes gets my vote.
Mine as well. Bene #1 and Claybrooks #2.
ArgoRavi
11-25-2015, 12:21 AM
I would rather see Benevides than Chamblin myself. I doubt that any serious negotiations will happen with Ray until after the Grey Cup and maybe not even until the new ownership is in place.
Argo57
11-25-2015, 07:53 AM
I would rather see Benevides than Chamblin myself. I doubt that any serious negotiations will happen with Ray until after the Grey Cup and maybe not even until the new ownership is in place.
Benevides would be my choice, or would be great if they could get Noel Thorpe out of Montreal.
I also prefer Bababooey over Chamblin.
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl-insider-trading-roughriders-interested-in-eskimos-jones-1.401483
The Argos are considering a change at defensive coordinator and if they fire Casey Creehan, look for Calgary Stampeders DC Rich Stubler to consider a move to the Argos. Stubler’s contract is about to expire and he has ties to the Toronto organization.
Argo57
11-29-2015, 02:40 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl-insider-trading-roughriders-interested-in-eskimos-jones-1.401483
Stubler is as good as it gets as DC, of more interest is the Milanovich speculation (Finalist for the U of Maryland HC job).
Wouldn't shock me if he has had enough and leaves Toronto.
1argoholic
11-29-2015, 03:31 PM
Creehan fired and Stubler wants back to TO. My mom just called here with that news at 3:30pm.
My mom says she saw it on Twitter but I see no official news on any site. Here's my 78 year old tecky mom and I hate it all.
Think my moms lost her mind.
AngeloV
11-29-2015, 04:29 PM
I like Stubler a lot, and if Milanovich was to leave and go to Maryland, I would hope the Argos would ask permission to interview Jason Maas for his job.
timlb01
11-29-2015, 04:31 PM
Bring in Rich for DC! He is possible the best DC in the game. He will also help sort out the personnel on defence so we can have one of the best defences in the CFL.
1argoholic
11-29-2015, 04:43 PM
Stubler would be great but we'll have to see how the chips fall.
I like Stubler a lot, and if Milanovich was to leave and go to Maryland, I would hope the Argos would ask permission to interview Jason Maas for his job.
I agree, would love to see Maas back here and while Stubler wouldn't be my first choice, I'd happily bring him back.
ArgoRavi
11-29-2015, 05:34 PM
Stubler is as good as it gets as DC, of more interest is the Milanovich speculation (Finalist for the U of Maryland HC job).
Wouldn't shock me if he has had enough and leaves Toronto.
It sounds like Milanovich may be one of many candidates for that job and certainly not a finalist at this point. I think that Lawless and Naylor are adding 2 and 2 together and coming up with 6. I know that Milanovich is extremely excited about coaching the Argos under new ownership and in a proper stadium next year so I suspect that it will take a lot for him to leave, especially as he has rejected NFL offers previously to stay in Toronto (something he has said himself in the past).
gilthethrill
11-29-2015, 06:10 PM
Does Milanovich have a history with Claybrooks from their days in Montreal? Benevides would be good too as he is a Toronto boy. As for Creehan, I have read that he is an excellent DL coach.
Does Milanovich have a history with Claybrooks from their days in Montreal? Benevides would be good too as he is a Toronto boy. As for Creehan, I have read that he is an excellent DL coach.
I think if Stubler leaves Calgary Claybrooks would take over as DC in Calgary, he's the DC heir apparent over there. I even recall after Stubler was hired Huff stating that he wanted Claybrooks to learn a bit more before getting the job and learning under Stubler would help his career. Benevides and Claybrooks are my #'s 1 and 2, but Stubler has been one of the best DC's in the CFL for a long time and if he came back I don't think anyone would be complaining. Creehan is a solid position coach, but has never been able to make the jump to DC with success.
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