Waters out 6 weeks - Groin Injury

[R.J]

http://www.tsn.ca/argos-waters-out-six-weeks-with-groin-injury-1.364806

[ArgoGabe22]

Why do I think a few posters from Argofans are to blame? You all jinxed him. :p

[Argo]

I see that threads are being recycled...

[argotom]

Pfeffer did not play last game with the RB, it would be interesting to find out is he is on the 46 man roster or can we pluck him off the PR?

[R.J]

Pfeffer did not play last game with the RB, it would be interesting to find out is he is on the 46 man roster or can we pluck him off the PR?
Redblacks "hid" Pfeffer on the 6 game IR just before last weekends game.

[Argo57]

Redblacks "hid" Pfeffer on the 6 game IR just before last weekends game.

Smart move, why give your rival any breaks, I would certainly hope this kind of shitty asset management in Argoland will subside once our new ownership actually lets Barker and his football staff do their jobs properly.

[argotom]

More important, I hope Waters recovers as so far he is injury prone big time.

[doubleblue]

I think It Is time for Waters to have a Tommy John on his groin or retire.

[1971GreyCup]

Earlier this year he was sidelined by a Quad injury. I think it was a couple of years ago he suffered the groin injury on the kickoff to the season

[AngeloV]

I have read today on Kirk Penton's twitter that the Argos have now also added Justin Palardy to the PR.

Anyone else think they are just messing with us? Two Palardy's kicking..one INT, one NAT...and no relation.

[ArgoRavi]

I have read today on Kirk Penton's twitter that the Argos have now also added Justin Palardy to the PR.

Anyone else think they are just messing with us? Two Palardy's kicking..one INT, one NAT...and no relation.

I am a little concerned about Michael Palardy's FG kicking as his strength is as a punter while the reverse is true for Justin Palardy. Perhaps we will see both Palardys in the lineup on Saturday with Michael doing the punting and Justin kicking field goals and converts. Not sure who would be doing the kickoffs.

[Wobbler]

Anyone else think they are just messing with us? Two Palardy's kicking..one INT, one NAT...and no relation.
There's an Eric Palardy who plays tackle, but unfortunately he's just a Junior. It's going to be harder to increase our Palardy content going forward.

[gilthethrill]

I have read today on Kirk Penton's twitter that the Argos have now also added Justin Palardy to the PR.

Anyone else think they are just messing with us? Two Palardy's kicking..one INT, one NAT...and no relation.

Always thought Justin Palardy was an accurate FG kicker but he lacked range. Wonder why Alvarado was not considered for both jobs?

[Gill The Thrill]

A groin injury for a kicker will probably be chronic. Once you pull your groin, you're susceptible to having it happen again and it will increase with age. That's been my experience and I'm not a kicker whose always extending their leg on kickoffs, punts and field goals especially if you're looking for distance which is a part of being an effective kicker for long field goals and punts deep in your end. The adducter is perenially being stretched to the limit as a kicker.

I'm saddened to say this, but unfortunately you could stick a fork in him as a pro kicker. He's better off having had an MCL or ACL injury than a groin injury for a kicker. I honestly don't think he'll ever play a full season again as he has missed plenty of games in two of the last 3 years. It has nothing to do with bad luck or curses or whatever foolishness and superstition that may be mentioned. My analysis on why the Argos should've kept Pfeffer was based on foresight and not any superstition. The Argos management is no doubt run as a short-term operation and decisions will not be made for the long-term benefit until December 31st when the new ownership takes over.


Earlier this year he was sidelined by a Quad injury. I think it was a couple of years ago he suffered the groin injury on the kickoff to the seasonQuad, groin and hips are all connected so it does make each injury somewhat related to the other to present a chronic problem. You get muscle movements affected by pain and soreness and it causes players to compensate by leaning on other muscles closely related to the injured area. This in turn ends up causing further injury when trying to comeback early or can aggravate a pre-existing injury.

[R.J]

So maybe it wasn't a money issue that lead to Pfeffer being released, but lack of foresight and vision by the Argonauts braintrust.

[AngeloV]

So maybe it wasn't a money issue that lead to Pfeffer being released, but lack of foresight and vision by the Argonauts braintrust.

Or maybe they just don't think he's as good as some on here do. Sure didn't take Ottawa long to sit him.

Honestly, I don't like him as a punter. I think he can be a very good FG kicker, but the Argos have made the decision that they would prefer to use 1 guy handling all kicking duties. Should we see both Palardy's play this week, my bet is that it would be a temporary move, while they try and find a more competent duo purpose guy.

[Argo]

I am a little concerned about Michael Palardy's FG kicking as his strength is as a punter while the reverse is true for Justin Palardy. Perhaps we will see both Palardys in the lineup on Saturday with Michael doing the punting and Justin kicking field goals and converts. Not sure who would be doing the kickoffs.

Pass the LSD : )

[Wobbler]

Prediction: Palardy handles the punting duties, Palardy kicks field goals and extra points, and Palardy deals with all the kick offs.

[Will]

I disagree, with Palardy's skills as a punter it is imperative that we give him the punting duties while Palardy handles field goals. Stala can handle the kickoffs.

[R.J]

Or maybe they just don't think he's as good as some on here do. Sure didn't take Ottawa long to sit him.

Honestly, I don't like him as a punter. I think he can be a very good FG kicker, but the Argos have made the decision that they would prefer to use 1 guy handling all kicking duties. Should we see both Palardy's play this week, my bet is that it would be a temporary move, while they try and find a more competent duo purpose guy.
While I agree that Pfeffer was a bit inconsistent with his punting ability, IMO he showed promise and the Argonauts should have kept him around to develop, which seems to be what Ottawa is doing. The kid is only 23 years old and showed a lot of potential to be a solid all round kicker. The fact that the Argonauts are now scrambling around for a kicker, trying to get Crapigna and another kicker who's name escapes me. What's worse IMO is bringing in Justin Palardy, who has a very weak leg, probably the weakest I've ever seen in the CFL. Justin is decent from 30 yards and in, after that you're better off playing Russian roulette. Michael Palardy at least has the skills to be a CFL kicker, whether or not he works out is yet to be seen.

Swayze seems to get a lot of love around here, he had one great season, he's a top end punter, not the best IMO, but a top end punter none the less. However take out last seasons kicking percentage and Swayze's percentages are 74.4, 72 and 57.1, so why is Swayze still around and Pfeffer not given the same treatment ?

[AngeloV]

While I agree that Pfeffer was a bit inconsistent with his punting ability, IMO he showed promise and the Argonauts should have kept him around to develop, which seems to be what Ottawa is doing. The kid is only 23 years old and showed a lot of potential to be a solid all round kicker. The fact that the Argonauts are now scrambling around for a kicker, trying to get Crapigna and another kicker who's name escapes me. What's worse IMO is bringing in Justin Palardy, who has a very weak leg, probably the weakest I've ever seen in the CFL. Justin is decent from 30 yards and in, after that you're better off playing Russian roulette. Michael Palardy at least has the skills to be a CFL kicker, whether or not he works out is yet to be seen.

Swayze seems to get a lot of love around here, he had one great season, he's a top end punter, not the best IMO, but a top end punter none the less. However take out last seasons kicking percentage and Swayze's percentages are 74.4, 72 and 57.1, so why is Swayze still around and Pfeffer not given the same treatment ?

I don't disagree with you on any of that..especially the Waters part. I, personally have no issues with going with an American kicker. There are a lot of good ones not working. The difficult thing is trying to find a duo purpose kicker, because in the US, they tend to train them more as specialists.

I still believe they should have brought in Alvarado. Who knows? Maybe they did, and he turned them down.

[Argo]

I don't disagree with you on any of that..especially the Waters part. I, personally have no issues with going with an American kicker. There are a lot of good ones not working. The difficult thing is trying to find a duo purpose kicker, because in the US, they tend to train them more as specialists.

I still believe they should have brought in Alvarado. Who knows? Maybe they did, and he turned them down.

If the team was rejected by Alvarado, I assume it would be because he didn't care to become Pfeffer II the next time Waters is apparently healthy.

[AngeloV]

If the team was rejected by Alvarado, I assume it would be because he didn't care to become Pfeffer II the next time Waters is apparently healthy.

Not necessarily. He's been in camps for the last 4 or 5 years now (mostly in Montreal). Maybe he would figure it's time to go on with his life outside of football. Of course this is all hypotheitical.

[jerrym]

A groin injury for a kicker will probably be chronic. Once you pull your groin, you're susceptible to having it happen again and it will increase with age. That's been my experience and I'm not a kicker whose always extending their leg on kickoffs, punts and field goals especially if you're looking for distance which is a part of being an effective kicker for long field goals and punts deep in your end. The adducter is perenially being stretched to the limit as a kicker.

I'm saddened to say this, but unfortunately you could stick a fork in him as a pro kicker. He's better off having had an MCL or ACL injury than a groin injury for a kicker. I honestly don't think he'll ever play a full season again as he has missed plenty of games in two of the last 3 years. It has nothing to do with bad luck or curses or whatever foolishness and superstition that may be mentioned. My analysis on why the Argos should've kept Pfeffer was based on foresight and not any superstition. The Argos management is no doubt run as a short-term operation and decisions will not be made for the long-term benefit until December 31st when the new ownership takes over.

Quad, groin and hips are all connected so it does make each injury somewhat related to the other to present a chronic problem. You get muscle movements affected by pain and soreness and it causes players to compensate by leaning on other muscles closely related to the injured area. This in turn ends up causing further injury when trying to comeback early or can aggravate a pre-existing injury.

i agree that this is likely going to be an ongoing problem.

[ArgoRavi]

Interesting quote from Milanovich regarding the Argos' inability to keep Pfeffer around: “It would have been great if we had kept him,’’ Milanovich said of Pfeffer. “Sometimes things don’t allow you to do things like that.”

http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Football/CFL/Toronto/2015/09/25/22555806.html

[argotom]

Interesting quote from Milanovich regarding the Argos' inability to keep Pfeffer around: “It would have been great if we had kept him,’’ Milanovich said of Pfeffer. “Sometimes things don’t allow you to do things like that.”

http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Football/CFL/Toronto/2015/09/25/22555806.html

Even though he is tucked away on the 6 game injury list, the RB are going to have a problem in keeping all of their punters/FG.
Who knows Pfeffer may be exposed at some point.

[Argo]

I really don't understand why hiding uninjured players on the IR list is allowed. It is tawdry and rather pathetic.

All that's required to remedy this poor sportsmanship - also known as cheating - is to require a physician's certification that the player is actually injured.

[argotom]

RB responds looks like we got a great finish.
We have to respond.

[ArgoRavi]

RB responds looks like we got a great finish.
We have to respond.

They did respond with both Palardys kicking very well tonight.

[Argocister]

They did respond with both Palardys kicking very well tonight.

It was very pleasant watching the Palardy squared kicking tonight.
Those punts were awesome, and that 50 yard field goal ....... Justin's bantam team was cheering him on for sure!

[AngeloV]

They did respond with both Palardys kicking very well tonight.

Just what I've been saying. There are a lot of good kickers available south of the border. I just don't get why so many were up in arms about losing a kicker that was OK, but nothing spectacular.

[Argo]

Just what I've been saying. There are a lot of good kickers available south of the border. I just don't get why so many were up in arms about losing a kicker that was OK, but nothing spectacular.

Factor in the passport...

[AngeloV]

Factor in the passport...

Not a factor at all, because the Argos already committed to using an INT kicker. As has Hamilton (Medlock), Montreal (Bede), B.C. (Leone), and Saskatchewan (Early). Way too much is made out of that. There are plenty of good NAT players to fill in another position if you choose to employ an INT kicker or punter

[Gill The Thrill]

Not a factor at all, because the Argos already committed to using an INT kicker. As has Hamilton (Medlock), Montreal (Bede), B.C. (Leone), and Saskatchewan (Early). Way too much is made out of that. There are plenty of good NAT players to fill in another position if you choose to employ an INT kicker or punter

So we should follow suit for exactly the same reason...WHY!!! Get a competent kicker yes, but let's not already prejudice Canadian kickers as inferior based on the fact that they're Canadian. I'm sure the Ticats could have found a Canadian kicker, many who could have matched Jason Medlock's last punt in yesterday's crucial loss vs the Stamps...A shanked 20 yd punt which resulted in a net punt of 2 yds after the return and gave Calgary instant field position to win the game with 9 seconds...yup that's clutch kicking by a superior trained American punter and worth the international roster spot.

[jerrym]

While I agree that Pfeffer was a bit inconsistent with his punting ability, IMO he showed promise and the Argonauts should have kept him around to develop, which seems to be what Ottawa is doing. The kid is only 23 years old and showed a lot of potential to be a solid all round kicker.

I agree it would have been to the Argos' benefit to keep Pfeffer and develop him (perhaps hiding him on the injured list a la Ottawa). After all, look what happened when Argos finally had the patience to develop a couple of their own QBs.

[gilthethrill]

I fear the kicking advantage the Argos had over Ottawa has evaporated.

[AngeloV]

I thought Alix punted quite well tonignt. He averaged just under 44 yards a punt, and his punts were pretty well placed towards the sidelines, limiting REDBLACKS punt returners to less than 1 yard per return average. Can't ask for more than that.

[Will]

Yeah he wasn't bad. I was concerned upon hearing his name at first, but a quick glance at his punting stats (however limited) alleviated those fears.

[paulwoods13]

His punts were fine and our punt coverage was excellent. But we have lost a lot of leg on kickoffs. I think he once got one down to the 12, but many of his KOs were outside the 20.

[Argo]

His punts were fine and our punt coverage was excellent. But we have lost a lot of leg on kickoffs. I think he once got one down to the 12, but many of his KOs were outside the 20.

I assume, at this point in Alix's career, that the relatively poor kickoffs indicate the physical, not technical, bound.

[doubleblue]

I agree with most of the comments. The two kickers aren't Waters but they get the job done. I would hope Waters can be back for the playoff run, but going forward Barker needs to bring in someone who doesn't get injured just kicking the ball.

Difficult to find one who is good at both though isn't it. Pre was a great punter who developed into "an ok" place kicker. Medlock was a great place kicker but average Punter for the Argos. Waters has the ability to be good at all three phases, but those recurring groin injuries are a concern. Very difficult anymore to find a Canadian kicker with Waters ability, and if there is any the NFL grabs them.

[R.J]

I agree with most of the comments. The two kickers aren't Waters but they get the job done. I would hope Waters can be back for the playoff run, but going forward Barker needs to bring in someone who doesn't get injured just kicking the ball.

Difficult to find one who is good at both though isn't it. Pre was a great punter who developed into "an ok" place kicker. Medlock was a great place kicker but average Punter for the Argos. Waters has the ability to be good at all three phases, but those recurring groin injuries are a concern. Very difficult anymore to find a Canadian kicker with Waters ability, and if there is any the NFL grabs them.
Pfeffer had that potential, has Swayze's leg strength as well. Grant Shaw also has that potential and the leg to boot. Waters is a great punter there's not denying that, but there's a lot of CFL place kickers that are much better than he is.

[AngeloV]

Paul Friesen of the Winnipeg Sun speculates that Lirim Hajrullahu could be done as a Bomber, as even punting duties have been taken away from him this week and will not dress. He had a great rookie season, I would love to see the Argos take a look at him in the off season.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/04/end-of-the-line-with-bombers-for-kicker-lirim-hajrullahu

[ArgoZ]

Pfeffer had that potential, has Swayze's leg strength as well. Grant Shaw also has that potential and the leg to boot. Waters is a great punter there's not denying that, but there's a lot of CFL place kickers that are much better than he is.

Funny, because Waters is a place kicker, with huge leg strength as his selling point. He had to learn to become a punter in the CFL.