Week 3: Toronto Argonauts @ BC Lions, July 7 2016 - Game Thread

[Will]

It will be a test for the Argos as BC's defense seems to be quite strong to start the year.

[ArgoGabe22]

3 Thursday's in a row? That's a bit strange.

[mchesher03]

from instagram looks like the team stayed out in Regina until Tuesday when they head to Vancouver.

I'm fine with the Thursday night games less so with the 10pm starts - ugh. at least last week had a holiday after it.

I have no clue what to expect but man would it be great to be 2-1 heading into a home game vs. Ottawa next week. Whether we can pull that off - we will see.

[AngeloV]

Looking forward to the game. Booked Friday off work, so start time is no issue to me. Nice to get the really late starts out of the way early, too.

[PullTogether73]

3 Thursday's in a row? That's a bit strange.

I mentioned the weirdness of the schedule in another thread.
Three Thursdays in a row, followed by a Wednesday and then a Monday.
Quite bizarre!

[ArgoZ]

It seems like it's the trend for Eastern teams to stay out West for successive away games, if possible. Not only does it give the a competitive balance by allowing the team to deal with the time change, there is probably not a substantial increase in cost to keep a team out there, rather than fly home. The Argos even did it during the Braley era.

[1argoholic]

This should help us since BC played in Hamilton while we were already out west. Hard to stay up for the late ones yet while on Vancouver Island you'd have to be home by $pm for the early starts and double headers were done around 10pm. That was alright. BC is due for there first loss.

[ArgoRavi]

I mentioned the weirdness of the schedule in another thread.
Three Thursdays in a row, followed by a Wednesday and then a Monday.
Quite bizarre!

After the Monday game, there will be a Sunday night game in Ottawa before the Argos have a bye week.

[Stevoman]

BC was lucky to win in week 1 but dominated week 2. Hopefully they go into this game over confident.

[mchesher03]

if i recall correctly after that things settle a bit outside of the wednesday night game at the end of August.

friday nights and weekends from what i remember - will be a great time to be an argos fan!

[R.J]

BC is well coached and playing really well on defence - The Argos should be in tough IMO.

[Argo]

BC is well coached and playing really well on defence - The Argos should be in tough IMO.

BC seems to have regained that missing mojo. Watching Jennings throw the football is typically enjoyable except, um, this week. Go get 'em Argos.

[R.J]

BC seems to have regained that missing mojo. Watching Jennings throw the football is typically enjoyable except, um, this week. Go get 'em Argos.
I can only imagine what the Lions could do if they had a better offensive coordinator.

[KCargosfan]

Looking forward to the game. Booked Friday off work, so start time is no issue to me. Nice to get the really late starts out of the way early, too.

That is awesome. Memo to the rest of the board: This is how it's done when you play on Thursday night.

[AngeloV]

That is awesome. Memo to the rest of the board: This is how it's done when you play on Thursday night.

Having 27 vacation days certainly makes things like this more doable.

[eiben35]

Ricky Ray is going to have a tough night, unfortunately. They have to try and establish the run in this game. I wish we had more then one American running back on the roster in case Whitaker goes down.

[KCargosfan]

Having 27 vacation days certainly makes things like this more doable.

Nicely done. However you compiled that or have a job with that, a tip of the cap to you.

[Neely2005]

Ricky Ray is going to have a tough night, unfortunately. They have to try and establish the run in this game. I wish we had more then one American running back on the roster in case Whitaker goes down.

Is Kackert still on the practice roster?

[ArgoRavi]

Is Kackert still on the practice roster?

According to the Argos' website, he is.

[AngeloV]

Nicely done. However you compiled that or have a job with that, a tip of the cap to you.

Been with the company 27 years at the end of the month. Being old has it's advantages.

[ArgoGabe22]

Being old has it's advantages.

So does being an ex-wrestler.

[AngeloV]

So does being an ex-wrestler.

Not so much, unless you consider bad knees, back and shouilders and advantage

[ArgoGabe22]

Not so much, unless you consider bad knees, back and shouilders and advantage

I meant it more in a way to get off work :p

[AngeloV]

I meant it more in a way to get off work :p

LOL. Hey, who's kidding who? Argos come before work.

[gilthethrill]

LOL. Hey, who's kidding who? Argos come before work.

Truer words have never been written on this forum.

[R.J]

LOL. Hey, who's kidding who? Argos come before work.
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/13/13207377128fd71cd6cf7d4b43f27c91b83672698e0c1ab5df 16c71d2f60cde4.jpg

[1argoholic]

Always have and always will schedule life around Argos and CFL ball in general. Missed a few more other games because this area is just too great not to get out and enjoy.

[KCargosfan]

Been with the company 27 years at the end of the month. Being old has it's advantages.

Congrats, that is quite an achievement. And no way you are in the "old" category.

[paulwoods13]

Depth chart is up. If I've counted correctly, every INT listed will dress, and two NATs (presumably Sackey and one of Smith/Bradfield) will sit. Tracey Robertson moved to six-game IR, unfortunately.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> depth chart for tomorrow night’s game at <a href="https://twitter.com/BCLions">@BCLions</a>. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> <a href="https://t.co/KW6bkzPJdd">pic.twitter.com/KW6bkzPJdd</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts PR (@Argonauts_PR) <a href="https://twitter.com/Argonauts_PR/status/750781467219808256">July 6, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Ron]

I don't like the Argos chances this week. The BC defence is playing lights out right now and the Argos forgot what a running game is.

[Wobbler]

2014 Argo 3rd round draft pick Jaskaran Dhillon may play for BC tomorrow.

[Wobbler]

We are looking rather thin at DT this week. What's more likely: that we use a 30-front more than usual or that Hickman sometimes lines up inside?

[mchesher03]

We are looking rather thin at DT this week. What's more likely: that we use a 30-front more than usual or that Hickman sometimes lines up inside?

my initial thoughts exactly - DT looks thin. See Gabriel is out (for his health prob a good thing), otherwise looks ok on my end.

going to be a tough one no ways around it, although we'll get an early glance at what this team is made of early on in the season.

[ArgoZ]

YES! Hamilton loses. Time for kickoff.

[PullTogether73]

Okay, I'm going to admit to a lack of football knowledge here.
Something I have never understood, especially with Milanovich's offence in Toronto.

The Argonauts second play from scrimmage. 2nd and 8.
They throw a quick crossing pattern for a reception.
Gain? 5 yards.
WTF?

If you need 8 yards, why send a receiver only 5 yards?
Is there an assumption that he will pick up the extra 3 yards with YACs, because most of the time for the Argos, that doesn't happen!

Freakin' annoying to this fan and says a lot to me about the wisdom of the coaching.

[1argoholic]

Yah that's a piss off! Milanovich's white bread offense.

How about the big empty stadium?

[ArgoZ]

^^ the simplest answer is that at 8 yards, he would likely be well covered. It sounds so easy when we "John Madden" analyze it.

[Neely2005]

Funny what happens when you actually try to run the ball.

[Neely2005]

What a waste of a forced fumble.

[1argoholic]

Ok I'm saying it, Ray looks SHIT!!!

[ArgoTD]

I'm starting to think more and more that Barker made a crucial error in not brining Harris back and going with Ray. He is incredibly immobile and no longer a premier passer! And would Milanovic explain why Kackert is not playing?!?!

[Argo57]

Holy shit Ray got away with one there!!

[ArgoTD]

This offence is AWEFUL!!!! Put Kilgore in, dress Kakert and get a real offensive coordinator!

[Argo57]

I'm starting to think more and more that Barker made a crucial error in not brining Harris back and going with Ray. He is incredibly immobile and no longer a premier passer! And would Milanovic explain why Kackert is not playing?!?!

Welcome aboard.

[Neely2005]

Everyone can run the ball regularly except for us.

[Neely2005]

Are we actually running the ball???
:-)

[KCargosfan]

Vintage Brandon Whitaker right there. Is this 2011 or 2016?

[tennyis]

id like harris or colaros back

[KCargosfan]

Ray should have been picked there.

[tennyis]

3 again... hopefully

[KCargosfan]

Coombs completely misses a block so we have to settle for 3.

[tennyis]

well its a good thing we have a good kicker lol

[KCargosfan]

Hey Andre Durie, don't quit on the play and slow up, keep on going full steam.

[tennyis]

Hey Andre Durie, don't quit on the play and slow up, keep on going full steam.

my thoughts too.. hit them hard and fight for the yards

[KCargosfan]

Six Lions blockers can't handle 3 of our DL, haha.

[Wobbler]

Man, Hajrullahu has been impressive. I was a bit concerned about his punt distance early in game 1, but his leg and accuracy has been terrific since then. And obviously he's been great on FGAs.

[KCargosfan]

Two exciting checkdowns.

[KCargosfan]

Great D by Green there.

[KCargosfan]

Nice poise by Ray there to not panic and throw the ball away or tuck it and run.

[tennyis]

Vintage Brandon Whitaker right there. Is this 2011 or 2016? now all we need is vintage Ray!

[KCargosfan]

That is not roughing the passer. It's not against us, but that is an awful call.

[KCargosfan]

OVA should be pumped we are running the ball. Coombs looked great on that run.

[Argocister]

That is not roughing the passer. It's not against us, but that is an awful call.
I don't know.... Looked like they grabbed Ricky's head at the end.

But on another note ..... WE HAVE A RUN GAME LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! Hopefully it will return in other games WooHoo!

[KCargosfan]

haha, what a play! left-handed pass.

[Argo57]

I don't know.... Looked like they grabbed Ricky's head at the end.

But on another note ..... WE HAVE A RUN GAME LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! Hopefully it will return in other games WooHoo!

+1👍👍

[KCargosfan]

Tori Gurley is a badass.

[tennyis]

That is not roughing the passer. It's not against us, but that is an awful call.

it was a facemask

[KCargosfan]

Our DL is awesome.

[KCargosfan]

Poor tackling by Heath and Berry there.

[Argo57]

D has to respond better than that, way too easy for BC on that series.
WTF nail bite time again!!!

[ArgoTD]

And right on cue, our D decides to go to sleep. It is frustrating to watch this team - as soon as one phase of their team plays well, another starts to regress!! This next drive after the BC touchdown is huge!

[KCargosfan]

If I'm Buono, Lulay is starting for me from here on out.

[KCargosfan]

Nice job by HH tonight. And Whitaker of course.

[Argo57]

Yessssssss!!!!!!!!

[Argo57]

Great gut check win!!!

[Argocister]

Thank you TJ!
And no turnovers!
G'nite all .....pleasant dreams after that game!

[ArgoTD]

The D played a great game except for that late TD drive by BC. I have to give it to Wittaker - he had an outstanding 2nd half. Looking forward to next Wed at BMO against the Redblacks!!!

[KCargosfan]

Good win

[Stevoman]

Great road win. Whitaker and the kicker (can't spell his name so won't try) are the stars of this one but also impressed with the D-line tonight. Ricky was also more mobile than we've seen him in the past and it was excellent to see a third straight game of disciplined football and with this one having zero turnovers. Looking forward to Jefferson coming back on the corner though.

["Issues"Mcgee]

Once again, the Argos are best in the West. Clutch win against a strong team. I don't get the Ricky hate here. He's getting better each game and the team loves his leadership. Maybe next game we should wait a tad longer before thinking about kicking a legend to the curb mid game?

This game has completely restored my faith in this team. I think the sting from week one is finally completely gone.

[ArgoRavi]

That is not roughing the passer. It's not against us, but that is an awful call.

Foxcroft should have just called it unnecessary roughness as it had to do with the B.C. player twisting Ray at the end of the play. It wasn't really "roughing the passer" in the traditional sense.

[argolio]

As per usual, the game thread was comedy gold!

[ArgoRavi]

Once again, the Argos are best in the West. Clutch win against a strong team. I don't get the Ricky hate here. He's getting better each game and the team loves his leadership. Maybe next game we should wait a tad longer before thinking about kicking a legend to the curb mid game?

This game has completely restored my faith in this team. I think the sting from week one is finally completely gone.

Well said, Issues! Ray had a solid night as he was 23 of 32 for 283 yards and a TD pass. He also threw 0 INTs. Marcus Brady did a terrific job with halftime adjustments in this game and the offence overall had a productive night - although it would have been nice to see a couple of those FGs turn into TDs. They threw for 283 yards and rushed for another 108 so that isn't a bad night at all against a defence that so many were afraid of coming into this game.

Special teams and defence were both solid tonight too. Even though the Ticats beat the Argos two weeks ago, the Argos have clearly been the better team since.

[paulwoods13]

I don't get the Ricky hate here. He's getting better each game and the team loves his leadership. Maybe next game we should wait a tad longer before thinking about kicking a legend to the curb mid game?

It's standard operating procedure around here. Ricky has endured criticism every season he's been here. Cleo Lemon went through the same (justifiable, but not to the level of vitriol it generated). Damon Allen, Michael Bishop, Kerwin Bell ... Probably one Argo QB in history had no detractors -- Doug Flutie.

[KCargosfan]

As per usual, the game thread was comedy gold!

We missed you on here during the game. I think there were only 3 of us posting during the third and the first 9 of the fourth.

[1argoholic]

Great win and other then the HORRIBLE tackling by Berry and Heath on that one BC td the D played well. I guess this is what he have to expect from Ray. To manage games and realize that he's not the Ray he was when he was younger. He's still very smart but when watching him and comparing him to the young qb's of the league he looks slow. Having said that if we had a young qb in there tonight we would have lost. In a game like last night you're one pick of fumble away from a different result. I still like Ricky but him bouncing passing in the first half had me frustrated.

This really seems like a team with guys who get along and all like each other.

I'll mention this yet again. Before we moved to Vancouver Island the Argos won in 2002. We moved in Oct and they won there that summer. For the next 11 years that we lived there they lost. Then we moved back to Ontario three years ago and the Argos have now won three straight there. Too Funny really.

[ArgoGabe22]

Missed the game again. Sounds like we stunk but managed to win? :ohno:

[Argo57]

Missed the game again. Sounds like we stunk but managed to win? :ohno:

Not really, some bumps along the way but a pretty good effort all around.
Clutch running and kicking.

[Johno27]

Well worth staying up for. I understand the frustration of fans in the heat of the moment when a player's performance falls short of expectations.

In my mind, however, BC Lions' defense deserves a lot of credit for disrupting Ricky Ray's rhythm and decision-making at certain points throughout the game. And perhaps some of the near interceptions, bounced passes were partially the result of miscommunication between quarterback and receiver. Clearly though, Ray came through when it mattered most and as 1argoholic observed, and I vigorously agree, his veteran presence made the difference between winning and losing last night. And judging by what I witnessed of BC's defense, they are a confident, disciplined, vicious, mobile group. Speaking of defense, how many of us expected Mr. Stubler's boys to force Jennings to the bench? That was a hell of an achievement considering how much Jennings has dominated opposition defenses since he came into the league. And a big congratulations to the excellent preparation and execution of our Special Teams and cool-headness of Lirim Hajrullahu, a squad which hasn't demonstrated this much dominance for a long time.

I suspect we have witnessed one of the few times BC will be on the short end of the score this season. That having been said, I can sense this Argonaut team is capable of something special this year. They competed hard and squeaked one out here against a well-prepared, formidable BC club.

It makes the homecoming to BMO next week against Ottawa that much sweeter....Now let's force Trevor Harris to the bench!

[mchesher03]

well my in-game frustrations with the offence aside, that's a highly successful road trip. It also sets up next week's game as a first place battle which is all you can really ask for. Although I didn't think we moved the ball enough (always a critic lol), we DID avoid turnovers and we DID cause several turnovers which is a huge difference maker. didn't see that Jennings was hurt - did the argos D just chase him?

My perception was that the D-Line was doing a great job at getting to the QB last night.
Other players who I feel did well:
- Durie - great vision and still has the wheels!
- Whittaker - some nice runs when we really needed them
- Gurley
- Hazelton
- Greenwood- may just be me but his field coverage is very very good.
- D-Line - I'm not astute enough to pick out individual performers here - as a unit they did well

My only downer and someone can correct me if they feel otherwise, feel that Bourke took too many penalties.

[mchesher03]

i missed larry taylor in my "players who did well" list - the return game was very strong last night!

[AngeloV]

Missed the game again. Sounds like we stunk but managed to win? :ohno:

You would think so by reading the game thread. I purposely avoided it until now. The knee jerk reactions are no surprise to me. We stink...wait..we're great. LMFAO!! This is a very good football team, with very good coaches and management. That is one hell of a defence that the Argos played against..perhaps the fastest in the league. And I know this will bug some on here, the turning point was a check down late in the first half which resulted in a fg which gave them a lead they would not relinquish. I suppose Ray could have forced it into coverage instead. May have made more people happy. Just may not have resulted in a win. That's 2 straight games with no turnovers. That is winning football.

[1argoholic]

Finally we have a team under Milo that's not taking stupid penalty after stupid penalty. You have to be happy with the result and obviously both teams fans had to be frustrated in the first half. That late field goal heading into the half was great. Lemon looks good and the D line pressured well.

Actually nice to see Lulay still have it. Man did he drive BC down the field for that late td. Then we just matched the ball down for that very important clock killing and field goal. It was a good road game in a stadium that we finally are having success in. Three in a row there now. I'd like to go next year but they'd lose.

Hopefully this team will continue growing and I hope our secondary injury issues stop soon.

[Wobbler]

- D-Line - I'm not astute enough to pick out individual performers here - as a unit they did well
Judging mostly by Suitor's comments and the replays, Bishop was surprisingly good (Robertson may not get his job back) and Lemon was as good as expected.


My only downer and someone can correct me if they feel otherwise, feel that Bourke took too many penalties.
He took two penalties, compared to one against Sask and zero against Hamilton. I don't think it was a big deal.

[R.J]

Good thing we've got Lirim and Stubler.

[mchesher03]

yeah Suitor was praising Bishop for sure (and for good reason). He also had a great game - great that he was able good on the opportunity when presented!

[KCargosfan]

Well worth staying up for. I understand the frustration of fans in the heat of the moment when a player's performance falls short of expectations.

In my mind, however, BC Lions' defense deserves a lot of credit for disrupting Ricky Ray's rhythm and decision-making at certain points throughout the game. And perhaps some of the near interceptions, bounced passes were partially the result of miscommunication between quarterback and receiver. Clearly though, Ray came through when it mattered most and as 1argoholic observed, and I vigorously agree, his veteran presence made the difference between winning and losing last night. And judging by what I witnessed of BC's defense, they are a confident, disciplined, vicious, mobile group. Speaking of defense, how many of us expected Mr. Stubler's boys to force Jennings to the bench? That was a hell of an achievement considering how much Jennings has dominated opposition defenses since he came into the league. And a big congratulations to the excellent preparation and execution of our Special Teams and cool-headness of Lirim Hajrullahu, a squad which hasn't demonstrated this much dominance for a long time.

I suspect we have witnessed one of the few times BC will be on the short end of the score this season. That having been said, I can sense this Argonaut team is capable of something special this year. They competed hard and squeaked one out here against a well-prepared, formidable BC club.

It makes the homecoming to BMO next week against Ottawa that much sweeter....Now let's force Trevor Harris to the bench!

I like our defense, especially our D-Line, a lot, but outside of maybe a 3-game stretch last year, when has Jennings dominated? Lulay starts for me the rest of the year if I'm coaching BC.

[AngeloV]

Good thing we've got Lirim and Stubler.

You're kidding right? If you don't think the offence played well last night, then your common sense is being taken over by your bias against Milanovich.

[AngeloV]

I like our defense, especially our D-Line, a lot, but outside of maybe a 3-game stretch last year, when has Jennings dominated? Lulay starts for me the rest of the year if I'm coaching BC.

Unless of course the thought process is that Lulay can prolong his career and be a valuable piece as a back-up.

[ArgoRavi]

You would think so by reading the game thread. I purposely avoided it until now. The knee jerk reactions are no surprise to me. We stink...wait..we're great. LMFAO!! This is a very good football team, with very good coaches and management. That is one hell of a defence that the Argos played against..perhaps the fastest in the league. And I know this will bug some on here, the turning point was a check down late in the first half which resulted in a fg which gave them a lead they would not relinquish. I suppose Ray could have forced it into coverage instead. May have made more people happy. Just may not have resulted in a win. That's 2 straight games with no turnovers. That is winning football.

The key word is "patience". I understood when fans get frustrated when a quarter or half doesn't go as well as they would like. However, football is a 60 minute game and a game of adjustments and we saw that last night. The offence struggled early but made great adjustments as the game progressed. Likewise, the defence gave up an early TD but Stubler is a master of adjusting to what the opposition offence is doing and we saw that again last night.

Ricky Ray has been better each week and he will continue to improve as the season progresses. At present though, he is completing over 2/3 of his passes, is averaging around 250 yards passing per game and has only thrown 1 INT against 5 TDs. Those aren't bad stats at all.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

It's standard operating procedure around here. Ricky has endured criticism every season he's been here. Cleo Lemon went through the same (justifiable, but not to the level of vitriol it generated). Damon Allen, Michael Bishop, Kerwin Bell ... Probably one Argo QB in history had no detractors -- Doug Flutie.

Rubbish Paul, nobody ever piled on Nobby Wirkowski.

[Wobbler]

You're kidding right? If you don't think the offence played well last night, then your common sense is being taken over by your bias against Milanovich.
Well... all of those FGs wouldn't have been enough if our D hadn't done a pretty good job of denying BC points. I don't think we've shown that we can score TDs when we need to... *yet*.

But that crazy 8 minute TD drive in the fourth quarter was a thing of beauty. Just... perfect.

[AngeloV]

I understood when fans get frustrated when a quarter or half doesn't go as well as they would like. .

I would understand it more if they were down by a couple of TD's. Not in a 1 possession game.

[AngeloV]

Well... all of those FGs wouldn't have been enough if our D hadn't done a pretty good job of denying BC points. I don't think we've shown that we can score TDs when we need to... *yet*.

But that crazy 8 minute TD drive in the fourth quarter was a thing of beauty. Just... perfect.

You do understand that the Argos had more points last night than Calgary and Hamilton combined for in the first 2 games against B.C., right? That is a very good defence, and it's not like the Argos started any drives on the Lions side of mid field. I thought the Argos O and D and special teams all played great.

[Reggiemac]

Really good performance in all facets of the game. And I have to eat my words about our RB. Good things everywhere and it should only get better as the players gel into the team they are becoming.

[paulwoods13]

I'll mention this yet again. Before we moved to Vancouver Island the Argos won in 2002. We moved in Oct and they won there that summer. For the next 11 years that we lived there they lost. Then we moved back to Ontario three years ago and the Argos have now won three straight there. Too Funny really.

Whatever you do from now on, argoholic, DO NOT MOVE TO HAMILTON.

[R.J]

You're kidding right? If you don't think the offence played well last night, then your common sense is being taken over by your bias against Milanovich.
Offense played pretty well I suppose. Slow start yet again though, 1 TD and zero turnovers is hardly impressive, not to mention Ray looks off; he's not making the throws he used to on a regular basis. Lirim and our Defense won us the game.

[Neely2005]

Offense played pretty well I suppose. Slow start yet again though, 1 TD and zero turnovers is hardly impressive, not to mention Ray looks off; he's not making the throws he used to on a regular basis. Lirim and our Defense won us the game.

Was it a slow start yet again last week too?

[R.J]

Was it a slow start yet again last week too?
Did you read my comments last week ?
Obviously not or you're just trying to be a smart ass.

[gilthethrill]

I PVR'D the game and got up at 3:30 am to watch before work (unlike some members of this forum I could not book the day off)..I think the offense will be effective but unspectacular this season. Nothing wrong with not committing turnovers. Whittaker had perhaps his best game as an Argo and the o-line was good all round. Special teams (coverage, kicking and Larry Taylor) were great again. Ken Bishop may have taken Tracey Robertson job and Keon Raymond has been a great pickup. Two wins on the road out West, both by double digits is impressive.

[Shatto]

Difficult to get an accurate read on the play through TV but some things appeared obvious:
Defense-Raymond has been the real deal--what a steal. Lemon made a big difference to the team's pass rush--Hickman will have to improve if he wants playing time. Bishop has looked good since training camp and his bull type rush was so effective the Lion's were double teaming him. Mitchell went down but Heath came in and played well. All the LB's played well nut Greenwood is having an all-star year. Good depth on D with Waud and Buicke still in the wings.
Offense-disappointed in Whitaker in game one but last night he was outstanding. The O line got better as game progressed, opening great holes for the running game in the crucial last few minutes of 4th quarter. Durie, Gurley, and Hazelton are all game breakers. Great to see Durie return after his injuries. Barker must have seen something in Hujrullahu. Hope last year's performance was only a blip. Ray showed how to manage a game --didn't make a serious mistake during the game. The throw to Gurley shows he still has the touch and he has looks to be improving with each game.

[gilthethrill]

Difficult to get an accurate read on the play through TV but some things appeared obvious:
Defense-Raymond has been the real deal--what a steal. Lemon made a big difference to the team's pass rush--Hickman will have to improve if he wants playing time. Bishop has looked good since training camp and his bull type rush was so effective the Lion's were double teaming him. Mitchell went down but Heath came in and played well. All the LB's played well nut Greenwood is having an all-star year. Good depth on D with Waud and Buicke still in the wings.
Offense-disappointed in Whitaker in game one but last night he was outstanding. The O line got better as game progressed, opening great holes for the running game in the crucial last few minutes of 4th quarter. Durie, Gurley, and Hazelton are all game breakers. Great to see Durie return after his injuries. Barker must have seen something in Hujrullahu. Hope last year's performance was only a blip. Ray showed how to manage a game --didn't make a serious mistake during the game. The throw to Gurley shows he still has the touch and he has looks to be improving with each game.

I agree on your assessment with the exception of Justin Hickmans play. Last week in Regina he made a tackle for a loss that forced a FG and last night he came up with a fumble recovery. I think there is room for both he and Lemon...Shawn Lemon that is.

[dmont]

.

Who I liked:

Brandon Whitaker, Anthony Coombs, and Andre Durie: I love it when the offense runs plays designed to get it to these guys in the flat. In games where the typical "run" or "pass" get shut down, these types of plays are a great third option. Whitaker was outstanding on the run and yac yards; everyone knows this. Coombs missed a key block with our boys in the red zone... that p!ssed me off a little...

Lirim Hijrullahu (sorry for he spelling): Has proven to be reliable in both phases of the game so far. I'll admit I was nervous in the preseason.

Isaiah Green: Becoming one of my favorite DBs. Did a great job knocking balls away all night.

Ken Bishop: Had a great game! I was really disappointed with the D-line in the first game, but there's been improvement ever since. I suspect Bishop is a big part of that improvement.

O-line: Gave Ricky time to make his reads. Didn't give up many penalties, and for the most part, did not negate big gains on offense.


Who I didn't like:

TJ Heath: Yes, he made the game-deciding interception, but he was getting steamrolled by RBs and receivers all through the second half, and his tackling was weak. I'm pretty sure his was the busted coverage that gave BC their 2-point convert in the second half.

Stubler defense: There was a lot to like on Defense last night, and yes you could argue that they won the game for us. I'm not saying we suck on defense; I'm saying these Stubler defenses give me a heart attack, particularly against strong running teams. The first half reminded me of 2008, when Stubler was HC and Jesse Lumsden was running for 200-yards against us. I'm not saying we need to make changes, I'm just saying get ready for a wild season on defense. I expect a high variance across games; we're going to dominate some games and get absolutely crushed in others. Everyone make sure to take your heart medication.

[ArgoGabe22]

Argos are 2-0 when winning the turnover battle. It would be nice to see Ray light it up statistically but as long as he's efficient and doesn't turn over the ball then everything should be fine. I'm not sure we'll see much QBs throwing for 350+ yards in a game anymore. While the NFL is beginning to see it more, the CFL looks to be on a decline.

[argolio]

He took two penalties, compared to one against Sask and zero against Hamilton. I don't think it was a big deal.Bourke was quite vocal in disputing one of those calls, but they never showed a replay.

Looked like Watman and Van Roten had their best games so far. Bourke had a key block on one good Whitaker run that I noticed. Holmes seems to be developing into a solid pro.

Elsworth made a definite impact on special teams.

BC took away Ray's first read numerous times last night, in addition to getting good pressure in the first half. The running game combined with some productive check-downs really turned things around for us and got the Lions on their heels. Some QBs would have turned the ball over in those situations.

Overall, good job on beating a team who I think will win a lot of games this year, and doing it in a stadium where we don't win very often.

[R.J]

Argos are 2-0 when winning the turnover battle. It would be nice to see Ray light it up statistically but as long as he's efficient and doesn't turn over the ball then everything should be fine. I'm not sure we'll see much QBs throwing for 350+ yards in a game anymore. While the NFL is beginning to see it more, the CFL looks to be on a decline.
???
While it is on the decline; mainly due to the majority of the league implementing some form of the Trestman high percentage offence. Mike Reilly, Trevor Harris, Jeremiah Masoli and Drew Willy have all thrown for over 350 yards in a game. Glenn and Mitchell have thrown for over 300 in a game. It all comes down to who's calling the plays, how often you're willing to use the run game, how aggressive the play caller and QB are willing to be. An example of this is Mike Reilly last season - Steve McAdoo is Milanovich 2.0 in the sense that he's very conservative at times, but Reilly is an aggressive QB who's willing to take shots. Harris is also an aggressive QB who seems to like to push the ball at times (which at times would lead to picks).


As I've said multiple times now; I'm really interested to see Edmonton's offence this year - could be a beauty. Ottawa's offence is looking in fine form as well. Once Collaros returns to the field in Hamilton = lookout!. Personally I think the Argonauts will be in deep.

[Ron]

Argo offence played great against a defence that has been lights out so far. They grinded them down.

[Wobbler]

Looked like Watman and Van Roten had their best games so far.
On one of the sacks Van Roten was the only guy who didn't manage to block anyone (he looked like a turnstile), but aside from that he was pretty good - I agree.

[R.J]

On one of the sacks Van Roten was the only guy who didn't manage to block anyone (he looked like a turnstile), but aside from that he was pretty good - I agree.
Seems like after they switched Watman and Van Roten the offensive line has looked better. I'm still hoping that McEwen is ready soon.

[AngeloV]

Offense played pretty well I suppose. Slow start yet again though, 1 TD and zero turnovers is hardly impressive, not to mention Ray looks off; he's not making the throws he used to on a regular basis. Lirim and our Defense won us the game.

I really think you are being to critical, or expecting way too much. Teams are playing cover 4 D a lot thus far. The throws he used to make (the corners) simply aren't there very often. Lirim did his job, as did the defence, but so did Ray and the offence. It was a great game in all phases.

[R.J]

I really think you are being to critical, or expecting way too much.
A Soul without high aim is like a ship without a rudder.
- Eileen Caddy

[Argo57]

As per usual, the game thread was comedy gold!

I like the game day thread, show the emotional ups and downs of being an Argonaut fan.

[argotom]

Good victory last night.
Thought the overall offensive scheme was decent, yet I would like Ricky to be more vertical and cut down on the check downs.
Night and day as he played much better than the opening game.
Whitaker was the key in the second half and our FG kicker is awesome so far, makes us forget Swayze.
The defense is still suspect especially the line as Allen had his way especially in the first half.

[Neely2005]

Did you read my comments last week ?
Obviously not or you're just trying to be a smart ass.

No just trying to figure out what you're referring to with the "yet again" when it's only Week 3. Hence the Question Mark.

Also I'd appreciate it if you refrained from the insults.

[Will]

Good victory last night.
Thought the overall offensive scheme was decent, yet I would like Ricky to be more vertical and cut down on the check downs.
Night and day as he played much better than the opening game.
Whitaker was the key in the second half and our FG kicker is awesome so far, makes us forget Swayze.
The defense is still suspect especially the line as Allen had his way especially in the first half.

Stubler did make some very good adjustments after the 1st quarter which saw BC only score 8 more points the entire night.

I seem to remember Stubler's teams in the 2000's yielding quite a few years on the ground.

[Neely2005]

Game ball presentation:

http://www.argonauts.ca/2016/07/08/go-inside-the-argos-locker-room-after-the-win-in-bc/

[Wobbler]

The game ball presentations are always great. For those of us with no opportunity to see the team live, it's a way to feel connected to the team.

[Reggiemac]

Anyone notice the game within a game on Berrys interception in our end zone. The play before Berry played well off the receiver and sucked the lions into thinking they could beat him inside and they took the bait and we got the interception. And the 4th quarter defensive strategy was excellent. Keep everything in front of you so they cant get a quick score and give them short underneath stuff that wastes a lot of time. Worked to perfection. Tye basis of tge strategy is make tge opposition take a lot of plays to get downfield and most cfl offences shoot themselves in the foot eventually wth penalties and dropped balls etc.

[KCargosfan]

Unless of course the thought process is that Lulay can prolong his career and be a valuable piece as a back-up.

I think Lulay can still be a pretty effective starter and gives BC its best chance of winning games. Jennings needs another year of learning as a back-up, imo.

[Reggiemac]

I saw the roughing tge passer call differently. I think when the BC player went over the top of Ricky he caught him with his knee to his head.

[Reggiemac]

Who got the game balls? My ipad audio sucks.

[Argo]

A very strong effort by O, D, ST and coaches against a talented opponent. Too many quality performers to list!

The stars must have aligned: Milanovich et al. finally demonstrated a consistent and effective running game, instead of piddling about.

[ArgoZ]

Fell asleep, but finished watching the game today. BC played well defensively and the Argos had to really work for points, often resulting in FG's. 2-0 road trip with 0 turnovers, that is a very well coached team despite our criticisms on offensive. Ray does look a little aged, but he is the smartest QB in this league, as demonstrated these last two games. Whitaker was solid as usual, what a pickup he has been since cast away from Montreal. Some weak tackling by the DB's, that has to be improved. Lemon making an immediate impact, thank you Saskatchewan! Team is really bonding and it shows, great locker video.

[Neely2005]

The game ball presentations are always great. For those of us with no opportunity to see the team live, it's a way to feel connected to the team.

Yeah I really enjoy them to. Do they only do them after wins though?

[AngeloV]

Who got the game balls? My ipad audio sucks.

Offence: BWhit and the O-line
Defence: Ken Bishop
ST's: coach Jefferey

I think Raymond should have been defence, but I guess it would look bad if he presented it to himself. I'm sure Kent Austin would have in his day.

[Wobbler]

Yeah I really enjoy them to. Do they only do them after wins though?
I don't know, but I don't think I've ever seen one after a loss.

[argolio]

I like the game day thread, show the emotional ups and downs of being an Argonaut fan.Don't get me wrong, I like it. But it's still comedy gold.


Anyone notice the game within a game on Berrys interception in our end zone. The play before Berry played well off the receiver and sucked the lions into thinking they could beat him inside and they took the bait and we got the interception.Good observation on your part.

[ArgoRavi]

Stubler did make some very good adjustments after the 1st quarter which saw BC only score 8 more points the entire night.

I seem to remember Stubler's teams in the 2000's yielding quite a few years on the ground.

Argos were last in the league in run defence in 2004 when they won the Grey Cup.

[Argo57]

Don't get me wrong, I like it. But it's still comedy gold.

Good observation on your part.

I get it, my wife thinks I'm nuts when I watch Argonaut games on TV.

[paulwoods13]

I've now seen the game. The o-line and d-line are both rounding into nice form. Bishop looks like the best d-tackle we've had since Armstead. Lemon is a nice addition. The LBs look strong -- love Greenwood this season, and Raymond has been everything we expected. The DBs look promising, and we have some depth back there.

The criticism of Ricky continues to amaze me. If he goes through the full season at his current pace he'll throw for 4,500 yards with 30 TDs and six INTs. What's not to like about that? He isn't in mid-season form yet but he has produced back-to-back efforts good enough to win by double figures after an inconsistent effort in week 1 when he was under siege. Whitaker is still a beast, Gurley and Hazelton are studs and Durie can still make tacklers miss. Good thing we didn't cut bait on him.

So glad we have Larry Taylor returning kicks -- our best threat back there since Owens' last big season as a returner. And Lirim is every bit as solid as he was as a rookie kicker.

[Will]

British Columbia had 385 total yards, of which 135 came on their final two drives (garbage time). There were large periods of the game where their offense was doing absolutely nothing. An underrated aspect of the victory was also keeping Chris Rainey in check as he had played a factor in the first couple of games of the season for BC. I think he had one decent punt return and one decent kick return and that was about it.

[Argo]

British Columbia had 385 total yards, of which 135 came on their final two drives (garbage time). There were large periods of the game where their offense was doing absolutely nothing. An underrated aspect of the victory was also keeping Chris Rainey in check as he had played a factor in the first couple of games of the season for BC. I think he had one decent punt return and one decent kick return and that was about it.

ST play was probably the best phase of the game for the Argos. An impressive display.

[Will]

ST play was probably the best phase of the game for the Argos. An impressive display.

Yep, which is why the game ball was given to the coach.

[1argoholic]

I forgot to mention that Greenwood is a beast and hits like a truck.

[Neely2005]

I've now seen the game. The o-line and d-line are both rounding into nice form. Bishop looks like the best d-tackle we've had since Armstead. Lemon is a nice addition. The LBs look strong -- love Greenwood this season, and Raymond has been everything we expected. The DBs look promising, and we have some depth back there.

The criticism of Ricky continues to amaze me. If he goes through the full season at his current pace he'll throw for 4,500 yards with 30 TDs and six INTs. What's not to like about that? He isn't in mid-season form yet but he has produced back-to-back efforts good enough to win by double figures after an inconsistent effort in week 1 when he was under siege. Whitaker is still a beast, Gurley and Hazelton are studs and Durie can still make tacklers miss. Good thing we didn't cut bait on him.

So glad we have Larry Taylor returning kicks -- our best threat back there since Owens' last big season as a returner. And Lirim is every bit as solid as he was as a rookie kicker.

Nice synopsis. I think that the criticism of Ray boils down to the fact that he's not Harris or Collaros.

[R.J]

Nice synopsis. I think that the criticism of Ray boils down to the fact that he's not Harris or Collaros.
He's not as good as them anymore. That's the problem.

[AngeloV]

He's not as good as them anymore. That's the problem.

In your opinion. I still see a guy that doesn't make mistakes, which produces victories. Argos were only forced to punt 6 times on Thursday with no turnovers. That is great offence.

[R.J]

In your opinion. I still see a guy that doesn't make mistakes, which produces victories. Argos were only forced to punt 6 times on Thursday with no turnovers. That is great offence.
I admittedly jumped the gun by including Harris at this point, but do you honestly think Ray is as good or better than Collaros ?

IMO Collaros, Reilly and Mitchell are the top 3 QB's in the CFL right now.

[AngeloV]

I admittedly jumped the gun by including Harris at this point, but do you honestly think Ray is as good or better than Collaros ?

IMO Collaros, Reilly and Mitchell are the top 3 QB's in the CFL right now.

Remains to be seen how well Collaros recovers, but you know I consider him the best in the league if healthy. I like Reilly, but I don't think he always makes the best decisions at the best times. Game one, he cost Edmonton the game in OT when he had easy first down yardage in front of him and chose to throw to a covered receiver on 3rd down. Last night, protecting a lead he goes deep on 2nd and 5. The incompletion gave the Riders an opportunity to get the ball back and take the lead late. I personally feel Durant played better than him last night.

Ray may not be what you look for in a QB, and I get you are a big play guy, but I like guys that make sound decisions and don't beat themselves. If the Argos can continue to run 10-15 times a game effectively, and stop teams from pinning their ears back and coming for him, Ray will be great.

[Neely2005]

He's not as good as them anymore. That's the problem.

In your opinion. Ray may not be flashy but he is effective.

[paulwoods13]

I admittedly jumped the gun by including Harris at this point, but do you honestly think Ray is as good or better than Collaros ?

IMO Collaros, Reilly and Mitchell are the top 3 QB's in the CFL right now.

After three weeks:

Mitchell (3 gms) 69 107 (64%) 910 5 1 8.5
Reilly (2 gms) 55 77 (71%) 761 5 1 9.9
Ray (3 gms) 62 90 (69%) 751 5 1 8.3

Pretty comparable.

[R.J]

After three weeks:

Mitchell (3 gms) 69 107 (64%) 910 5 1 8.5
Reilly (2 gms) 55 77 (71%) 761 5 1 9.9
Ray (3 gms) 62 90 (69%) 751 5 1 8.3

Pretty comparable.
You're really comparing Reilly in 2 games to Ray in 3 ?
Mitchell is comparable.

[Argo57]

Remains to be seen how well Collaros recovers, but you know I consider him the best in the league if healthy. I like Reilly, but I don't think he always makes the best decisions at the best times. Game one, he cost Edmonton the game in OT when he had easy first down yardage in front of him and chose to throw to a covered receiver on 3rd down. Last night, protecting a lead he goes deep on 2nd and 5. The incompletion gave the Riders an opportunity to get the ball back and take the lead late. I personally feel Durant played better than him last night.

Ray may not be what you look for in a QB, and I get you are a big play guy, but I like guys that make sound decisions and don't beat themselves. If the Argos can continue to run 10-15 times a game effectively, and stop teams from pinning their ears back and coming for him, Ray will be great.

You never know with those types of knee injuries, but Collaros is a great talent for sure.
Sustaining and developing a run game is key for the Argonauts which was also key on 2012.

[Argo]

I admittedly jumped the gun by including Harris at this point, but do you honestly think Ray is as good or better than Collaros ?

IMO Collaros, Reilly and Mitchell are the top 3 QB's in the CFL right now.

Trevor Harris is the best QB in the CFL right now.
Note the italics? We'll have to see what transpires the rest of the way, beginning with a fascinating QB duel next Wednesday, but so far his shoot out the lights standard of play hasn't been bettered.

There's no justification (besides sour grapes) for the short-selling of this QB that occurs habitually on this board.

Having said this - big picture - parting ways with both Collaros and Harris won't matter in the least IF
(1) Ray and the team around him are successful as long as he starts.
(2) At least one of Ray's understudies, as Argonauts starter, turns out as well as Collaros and Harris have.

[paulwoods13]

You're really comparing Reilly in 2 games to Ray in 3 ?
Mitchell is comparable.

No, they are all comparable. Reilly has better per-game stats so far, but they are not miles beyond the other two guys', and he has had the advantage of having to face only two teams. If he keeps up his current pace he will likely have better stats than the others, but there's no guarantee he will do that. Obviously there is more to this than stats, but they do tell a tale of sorts and it is pretty interesting that BLM and RR are so close at this point.

[Ron]

Put Ray into that Ottawa offence right now and you'd see some stats.

[R.J]

Trevor Harris is the best QB in the CFL right now.
Note the italics? We'll have to see what transpires the rest of the way, beginning with a fascinating QB duel next Wednesday, but so far his shoot out the lights standard of play hasn't been bettered.

There's no justification (besides sour grapes) for the short-selling of this QB that occurs habitually on this board.

Having said this - big picture - parting ways with both Collaros and Harris won't matter in the least IF
(1) Ray and the team around him are successful as long as he starts.
(2) At least one of Ray's understudies, as Argonauts starter, turns out as well as Collaros and Harris have.
(1) How much longer can Ray stay close to the top though ? As I've said he's not in my top 3 right now, but I'd put Ray in the top half I suppose. He'll fall off eventually.
(2) And if they don't ? We're screwed no ?
Not saying that they will or won't, because we have to see them play first, but those are some big if's.

No, they are all comparable. Reilly has better per-game stats so far, but they are not miles beyond the other two guys', and he has had the advantage of having to face only two teams. If he keeps up his current pace he will likely have better stats than the others, but there's no guarantee he will do that. Obviously there is more to this than stats, but they do tell a tale of sorts and it is pretty interesting that BLM and RR are so close at this point.
No stats don't tell the whole story; you have to watch the games as well. Reilly is rarely out of a game and has improved significantly the last couple of seasons IMO. Mitchell does remind me of a young Ricky Ray, but with a stronger arm and a bit more mobile, but at this point (not Ray at the same age) I think he's surpassed Ray. Collaros is a whole other animal, very similar to Reilly IMO, but makes better decisions. Collaros, Reilly, and Mitchell have that "it" factor; which is immeasurable.

Put Ray into that Ottawa offence right now and you'd see some stats.
I doubt it, but hey give Collaros Maas as his OC and we'd see the most explosive offense the CFL has seen since Flutie's Argo years IMO.

[paulwoods13]

No stats don't tell the whole story; you have to watch the games as well. Reilly is rarely out of a game and has improved significantly the last couple of seasons IMO.

I agree with that. Ricky hasn't been out of a game for quite some time, either, unless you count the season opener where the defence completely collapsed just after he brought the team back into the game with two quick scores (one set up by special teams, of course).


Collaros, Reilly, and Mitchell have that "it" factor; which is immeasurable.

IMO Ricky has at least as much "it" factor as Mitchell. If you mean swagger, no. But if you mean worrying the crap out of defences and D coordinators, yes.


I doubt it, but hey give Collaros Maas as his OC and we'd see the most explosive offense the CFL has seen since Flutie's Argo years IMO.

We'll never know, but that seems a wee bit over the top.

[Argo57]

Trevor Harris is the best QB in the CFL right now.
Note the italics? We'll have to see what transpires the rest of the way, beginning with a fascinating QB duel next Wednesday, but so far his shoot out the lights standard of play hasn't been bettered.

There's no justification (besides sour grapes) for the short-selling of this QB that occurs habitually on this board.

Having said this - big picture - parting ways with both Collaros and Harris won't matter in the least IF
(1) Ray and the team around him are successful as long as he starts.
(2) At least one of Ray's understudies, as Argonauts starter, turns out as well as Collaros and Harris have.

All of your points are dead on!
I like Ray as much as anyone but the time is coming when he either gets hurt again or his play declines to the point that it's over.
The million dollar question is when??
When you have viable (and younger) QB prospects that seem to have the qualities to be "the guy" (while filling in for an injured Ray) but move on and flourish elsewhere the fear that we may on the outside looking in when we need a new QB is justified.
These are in fact the concerns of a great number of Argonaut fans but when stated are treated as salacious attacks on the career and accomplishments of Ricky Ray and necessitates consideration for the Argofan Witness Protection Program.

[Neely2005]

All of your points are dead on!
I like Ray as much as anyone but the time is coming when he either gets hurt again or his play declines to the point that it's over.
The million dollar question is when??
When you have viable (and younger) QB prospects that seem to have the qualities to be "the guy" (while filling in for an injured Ray) but move on and flourish elsewhere the fear that we may on the outside looking in when we need a new QB is justified.
These are in fact the concerns of a great number of Argonaut fans but when stated are treated as salacious attacks on the career and accomplishments of Ricky Ray and necessitates consideration for the Argofan Witness Protection Program.

Since Collaros became a starter he has been injured as much or more than Ray.

[PullTogether73]

Argos were only forced to punt 6 times on Thursday with no turnovers. That is great offence.

Yes and no.
Only 6 punts and 0 turnovers.
Only 1 touchdown and 6 field goals.

I would grade it as good offence, but room for improvement.
The fact that they won is at least as much due to the defence as the offence.

[Ron]

When you have viable (and younger) QB prospects that seem to have the qualities to be "the guy" (while filling in for an injured Ray) but move on and flourish elsewhere the fear that we may on the outside looking in when we need a new QB is justified.

But we also have to look that the guys that developed both QB's (Harris and Collaros) are high on the backups Ray has now. So if these guys are high on them ... why should we question guys with a great track record for developing "best in show" QB talent?

[Argo57]

Since Collaros became a starter he has been injured as much or more than Ray.

I guess you missed the point of my post, would Collaros have been injured in TO under different circumstances who knows?

[R.J]

We'll never know, but that seems a wee bit over the top.
It's a big what if lol
I really like Maas as an OC (hands down my favourite oc right now). He's very aggressive, uses the run relatively well (with John White I think he'll use the run even more), doesn't try and limit running QB's, loves high tempo, etc. So in saying that; I could see a lot of good things happen with Maas and IMO the best QB in the League.

All of your points are dead on!
I like Ray as much as anyone but the time is coming when he either gets hurt again or his play declines to the point that it's over.
The million dollar question is when??
When you have viable (and younger) QB prospects that seem to have the qualities to be "the guy" (while filling in for an injured Ray) but move on and flourish elsewhere the fear that we may on the outside looking in when we need a new QB is justified.
These are in fact the concerns of a great number of Argonaut fans but when stated are treated as salacious attacks on the career and accomplishments of Ricky Ray and necessitates consideration for the Argofan Witness Protection Program.
https://media1.giphy.com/media/Xl6MM0lOHGkSY/200.gif

Yes and no.
Only 6 punts and 0 turnovers.
Only 1 touchdown and 6 field goals.

I would grade it as good offence, but room for improvement.
The fact that they won is at least as much due to the defence as the offence.
Finally!
Someone else gets it. Okay, good and great are all very different things. Neither the offense nor defense have been great, but poor to good so far. I really don't understand why some struggle with me wanting greatness.

But we also have to look that the guys that developed both QB's (Harris and Collaros) are high on the backups Ray has now. So if these guys are high on them ... why should we question guys with a great track record for developing "best in show" QB talent?
Argo fans were pretty worried when it was Collaros and Harris early on as well. It's the fear of the unknown. Harris worked out relatively well (still not completely sold on him, but I'm getting there), but Collaros is generally considered the best QB in the CFL. Realistically what are the odds the Argonauts are going to pull it off a 3rd or 4th time ?

Not saying that it can't or won't happen, but we have no idea if it will happen again and I think at the very least we should be cautious about it.

[Argo57]

But we also have to look that the guys that developed both QB's (Harris and Collaros) are high on the backups Ray has now. So if these guys are high on them ... why should we question guys with a great track record for developing "best in show" QB talent?

Until we see them (Kilgore and Fajardo) play in live regular season action we don't know anything.

[1argoholic]

I really have a good feeling about Fajardo. I think he's very suited to play our game. If he gets some game action and nerves out of the way his mobility will be second to none as far as CFL qb's in the game today. Plus he's such a big strong qb. I just hope if he and Kilgore get game action it's not because Ray is injured.

[AngeloV]

Yes and no.
Only 6 punts and 0 turnovers.
Only 1 touchdown and 6 field goals.

I would grade it as good offence, but room for improvement.
The fact that they won is at least as much due to the defence as the offence.

Against a team that gave up 21 points combined in 2 games, I would say it was a great effort.

[AngeloV]

I really like Maas as an OC (hands down my favourite oc right now).

Funny you should say that. I recall after the season opener, you posting a comment about the Argos coaches not being prepared as evidenced by the slow starts they have on offence. What did Edmonton do in each of the first quarters of their games so far?

[Will]

If the complaint is that the Argo offence is not as aggressive as the ones in Ottawa and Edmonton then it begs a question that I don't think has been asked yet and that is whether the Argo receivers are simply as not as good as we think they are and they are not getting open on a consistent basis?

[paulwoods13]

If the complaint is that the Argo offence is not as aggressive as the ones in Ottawa and Edmonton then it begs a question that I don't think has been asked yet and that is whether the Argo receivers are simply as not as good as we think they are and they are not getting open on a consistent basis?

It's a good question. None of our current receivers has the pure speed of Deontae Spencer, and Elliott may be the fastest of the so-called Big Three. Put them in instead of Miles and Bates (altho I like Bates's downfield blocking) and I think we'd start seeing more guys getting open sooner.

["Issues"Mcgee]

Ray gets the job done, plain and simple. Why do you think we rushed him back in last season? Harris' luck ran out because of his tendency to throw into the heaviest of coverage. He was crap for us in the second half of the season... Doesn't matter how many long passes you can throw, at the end of the day, the score is all that matters.

And as for Ray throwing check downs... Who won that game? The Argos did. Period.

This is why Toronto rarely has winning teams. We have no gratitude for the talent we currently have. Can someone tell me what happened to Kessel after we ran him out of town. Anyone?

[Neely2005]

I guess you missed the point of my post, would Collaros have been injured in TO under different circumstances who knows?

Would Collaros have had a career ending injury in Toronto, who knows?

[Argo57]

Would Collaros have had a career ending injury in Toronto, who knows?

You got me on that one, well stated as always.
Collaros got hurt in games playing for Hamilton, who knows what would have happened in TO he may not have been hurt at all.
Point being we have had 2 promising QB prospects in Toronto in the last 4 years and other organizations will reap the benefit.

[doubleblue]

Against a team that gave up 21 points combined in 2 games, I would say it was a great effort.

Yes, I thought Ray played a controlled veteran type game. His pass to Gurley was vintage Ray, only where Gurley could catch it under tight coverage. There is a lot of parity in the League right now IMO. It was a great effort by the Argos.

[Argo57]

Ray gets the job done, plain and simple. Why do you think we rushed him back in last season? Harris' luck ran out because of his tendency to throw into the heaviest of coverage. He was crap for us in the second half of the season... Doesn't matter how many long passes you can throw, at the end of the day, the score is all that matters.

And as for Ray throwing check downs... Who won that game? The Argos did. Period.

This is why Toronto rarely has winning teams. We have no gratitude for the talent we currently have. Can someone tell me what happened to Kessel after we ran him out of town. Anyone?

Makes sense, the Leafs futility since 1967 lays at the feet of their ungrateful fans.

[R.J]

Funny you should say that. I recall after the season opener, you posting a comment about the Argos coaches not being prepared as evidenced by the slow starts they have on offence. What did Edmonton do in each of the first quarters of their games so far?
1 point 1st quarter game 1 and 0 points in first quarter for the second game. Ottawa was slow out of the gate at times last season as well, but as I've said - I want to see how Reilly does with Maas. 1 season (Maas in Ottawa) and 2 games (in Edmonton) is very different than 5 seasons under Milanovich. This isn't the first time slow starts or slow downs has been talked about under the Milanovich era. I really don't understand as to why some are acting as if it is.


If the complaint is that the Argo offence is not as aggressive as the ones in Ottawa and Edmonton then it begs a question that I don't think has been asked yet and that is whether the Argo receivers are simply as not as good as we think they are and they are not getting open on a consistent basis?
5 years of not good enough receiving ? I highly doubt.

All you have to do is watch this weeks game's to know what the difference is = Reilly and Harris will take chances, throw into coverage at times. It will lead to mistakes, but IMO producing zero turnovers doesn't equal a good offence.

Makes sense, the Leafs futility since 1967 lays at the feet of their ungrateful fans.
Not the first time I've heard the fans being blamed for the Leafs lack of Championships. Still doesn't make much sense to me though.

[ArgoRavi]

IMO producing zero turnovers doesn't equal a good offence.

The one stat, more than any other, that determines who wins and who loses football games is turnovers. If you don't turnover the football, you probably have a 90%-95% chance of winning. I will take those odds any day and that is good offence IMO.

[AngeloV]

The one stat, more than any other, that determines who wins and who loses football games is turnovers. If you don't turnover the football, you probably have a 90%-95% chance of winning. I will take those odds any day and that is good offence IMO.

I guess we're in the minority here, Ravi. I feel the exact same way. Mistake free football is winning football.

[Neely2005]

The one stat, more than any other, that determines who wins and who loses football games is turnovers. If you don't turnover the football, you probably have a 90%-95% chance of winning. I will take those odds any day and that is good offence IMO.

Not flashy enough.
:-)

But seriously I agree with you.

[Argo]

I guess we're in the minority here, Ravi. I feel the exact same way. Mistake free football is winning football.

Overall, Ray's performance was impressive in the BC game. It wasn't mistake-free though: most importantly, two of his throws were flat-out dropped by BC defenders. (And was one a pick-6 ? ... memory kaput.) So he did have good fortune.

[Argo57]

The one stat, more than any other, that determines who wins and who loses football games is turnovers. If you don't turnover the football, you probably have a 90%-95% chance of winning. I will take those odds any day and that is good offence IMO.

I would add penalties to that equation as well Ravi, to which the Argonauts are greatly improved so far this season.

[Neely2005]

Overall, Ray's performance was impressive in the BC game. It wasn't mistake-free though: most importantly, two of his throws were flat-out dropped by BC defenders. (And was one a pick-6 ? ... memory kaput.) So he did have good fortune.

Ray has thrown 1 interception so far this season. It was against Hamilton.

[Johno27]

Ray has thrown 1 interception so far this season. It was against Hamilton.

...and conveniently tipped into S. Lawrence's awaiting mitts. And the close calls such as the two in BC, IMO, are not a reflection of Ray forcing the ball, rather it would seem to have occurred as a result of some breakdown somewhere else along the line.

If the Argos can keep their collective nose clean in the turnover battle and in the avoidance of penalties I expect they will win far more than they lose. The overall percentages certainly reflect that.

Trevor Harris has been the beneficiary of excellent protection in Ottawa so far. I am very curious to see how he will respond, and how his stats will look, if the Argos' front seven makes his life miserable on Wednesday.

On the other hand, I wonder if Ricky Ray will face a tougher defense than the one he managed to survive in BC.

[R.J]

I would add penalties to that equation as well Ravi, to which the Argonauts are greatly improved so far this season.
I agree, and I'll give credit where it's due. The discipline under Milanovich this season has been a major improvement over years past.

[AngeloV]

Overall, Ray's performance was impressive in the BC game. It wasn't mistake-free though: most importantly, two of his throws were flat-out dropped by BC defenders. (And was one a pick-6 ? ... memory kaput.) So he did have good fortune.

I agree the one in the endzone was a mistake. The Swing screen was not on Ray. Wallace Miles missed his block on Phillips on that. The QB does not make the read on that play. It is assumed that the blocks up front will be made by the receivers.

[argolio]

This is why Toronto rarely has winning teams. We have no gratitude for the talent we currently have. Can someone tell me what happened to Kessel after we ran him out of town. Anyone?Without being bothered by Simmons and Feschuk, got to eat hot dogs in peace, and won a Cup.

[argotom]

Trevor Harris is the best QB in the CFL right now.
Note the italics? We'll have to see what transpires the rest of the way, beginning with a fascinating QB duel next Wednesday, but so far his shoot out the lights standard of play hasn't been bettered.

There's no justification (besides sour grapes) for the short-selling of this QB that occurs habitually on this board.

Having said this - big picture - parting ways with both Collaros and Harris won't matter in the least IF
(1) Ray and the team around him are successful as long as he starts.
(2) At least one of Ray's understudies, as Argonauts starter, turns out as well as Collaros and Harris have.


I agree with you.
Starting with Zach and now Trevor, the naysayers here are doing their best to justify Ricky's status here.
Like some others, I do not have to repeat how for me management was stupid to let both go.
Each have come out with their new teams and so far it's early, but Harris like Collaros last year is having an MOP type season.
Ray has not done anything since the GC.

[Scooter McCray]

I agree with you.
Starting with Zach and now Trevor, the naysayers here are doing their best to justify Ricky's status here.
Like some others, I do not have to repeat how for me management was stupid to let both go.
Each have come out with their new teams and so far it's early, but Harris like Collaros last year is having an MOP type season.
Ray has not done anything since the GC.

I'm disappointed we have not been able to keep the young guys but to say Ray hasn't done anything is wrong. In 2013 he had an MOP season over 5,000 yards in 17 games and led them to first in the East. He then had injuries which he played through and was still respectable without full arm strength. I have not closed the book on him and have seen progression with two solid road type wins in hostile environments. I am hoping we can see some home field type of offence coming up. IE explosiveness and sustained drives with crisper passing and no more knock downs and passes falling short of receivers. This to me will be an indication of his arm strength now back to normal.

[R.J]

Ray has never thrown for 5,000 yards as an Argo. The last time he did it was in 2008 as an Eskimo. 2013 Ray was injured for half the year and that's when we got to see Colaros' impressive road trip. In 2014 Ray played 17 game and lead the league in passing yards (just over 4,500 yards) and it should be noted he did so on a wonky arm - he injured his shoulder early in the season.

[Scooter McCray]

Ray has never thrown for 5,000 yards as an Argo. The last time he did it was in 2008 as an Eskimo. 2013 Ray was injured for half the year and that's when we got to see Colaros' impressive road trip. In 2014 Ray played 17 game and lead the league in passing yards (just over 4,500 yards) and it should be noted he did so on a wonky arm - he injured his shoulder early in the season. You are correct. I got my years mixed up. He was in the conversation of MOP and was the East nominee for MOP in 2014 and he did that on the wonky shoulder. Ray is not washed up, but he is at his most immobile now at 36, and requires first rate protection. But if he has that and if he has his arm strength back (TBD IMO), then he can still win another championship because he can read and react against most defences.

[AngeloV]

Listening to Barker on the radio today, the Argos tried to extend Harris last year while Ray was injured. It was Harris and his representatives that turned the Argos down. It was the same scenario with Collaros previously. Sounds like the only way either of these guys were going to sign with the Argos was if they released Ray first and guaranteed them starting status. Had the Argos done that, which would have been a gamble based on sample size of the others, and they tuned out to be not that great, people would be screaming. They were in a no win situation.

IMO, the Argos were right not to release Ray, and if it meant losing those guys in the process, then so be it.

[ArgoRavi]

Ray has never thrown for 5,000 yards as an Argo. The last time he did it was in 2008 as an Eskimo. 2013 Ray was injured for half the year and that's when we got to see Colaros' impressive road trip. In 2014 Ray played 17 game and lead the league in passing yards (just over 4,500 yards) and it should be noted he did so on a wonky arm - he injured his shoulder early in the season.

Ray was the East MOP in 2014 which was the last full season he played. As you mention, it is remarkable that he put up those numbers given that he was playing hurt.

[Argo]

Listening to Barker on the radio today, the Argos tried to extend Harris last year while Ray was injured. It was Harris and his representatives that turned the Argos down. It was the same scenario with Collaros previously. Sounds like the only way either of these guys were going to sign with the Argos was if they released Ray first and guaranteed them starting status. Had the Argos done that, which would have been a gamble based on sample size of the others, and they tuned out to be not that great, people would be screaming. They were in a no win situation.

IMO, the Argos were right not to release Ray, and if it meant losing those guys in the process, then so be it.

Yes, it was a bit of a no-win situation. Harris, in particular, probably felt that he (a) should leave, for events that we've hashed over, and (b) had to leave, because he's 30 years old; Ray is years younger than Buriss.

[ArgoRavi]

Listening to Barker on the radio today, the Argos tried to extend Harris last year while Ray was injured. It was Harris and his representatives that turned the Argos down. It was the same scenario with Collaros previously. Sounds like the only way either of these guys were going to sign with the Argos was if they released Ray first and guaranteed them starting status. Had the Argos done that, which would have been a gamble based on sample size of the others, and they tuned out to be not that great, people would be screaming. They were in a no win situation.

IMO, the Argos were right not to release Ray, and if it meant losing those guys in the process, then so be it.

This is comparable to what happened back in 1992. The Argos had to make a choice between the hall-of-famer Matt Dunigan and Rickey Foggie and, frankly, I thought at the time that they had made the right choice given how well Foggie had played in 1990 and 1991 when Dunigan was injured. However, as we all know now, they made a bad choice that sent the franchise into a tailspin for the next few years.

In this decade, they decided to go with the hall-of-famer instead and it doesn't look like a bad decision so far.

[AngeloV]

Ray was the East MOP in 2014 which was the last full season he played. As you mention, it is remarkable that he put up those numbers given that he was playing hurt.

And I'll never forget to brutal receiving core he had to play with in the Labour Day game that season. Doug Flutie wouldn't have been successful with the group that day.

[R.J]

Listening to Barker on the radio today, the Argos tried to extend Harris last year while Ray was injured. It was Harris and his representatives that turned the Argos down. It was the same scenario with Collaros previously. Sounds like the only way either of these guys were going to sign with the Argos was if they released Ray first and guaranteed them starting status. Had the Argos done that, which would have been a gamble based on sample size of the others, and they tuned out to be not that great, people would be screaming. They were in a no win situation.

IMO, the Argos were right not to release Ray, and if it meant losing those guys in the process, then so be it.
Didn't Harris originally want $400-450k ?
I can understand why Barker was hesitant on that; I even mentioned to be paid as an elite you should play like it. Winnipeg is learning that lesson now with Willy.
No comment on the Collaros bit.

Ray was the East MOP in 2014 which was the last full season he played. As you mention, it is remarkable that he put up those numbers given that he was playing hurt.
Yes he was. Ray deserves a lot of credit for 2014; his shoulder was injured, rarely had his starting receivers (I think Owens and Durie only played around 3-5 games together), and our offensive line was poor.

And I'll never forget to brutal receiving core he had to play with in the Labour Day game that season. Doug Flutie wouldn't have been successful with the group that day.
All I remember is Brazill, Adjei and Darvin Adams. IIRC Durie was injured, but on the 46. Owens, Chiles and Barnes out on the IR.

[AngeloV]

All I remember is Brazill, Adjei and Darvin Adams. IIRC Durie was injured, but on the 46. Owens, Chiles and Barnes out on the IR.

Trent Guy was in our starting receiving core. Enough said.

[argotom]

Listening to Barker on the radio today, the Argos tried to extend Harris last year while Ray was injured. It was Harris and his representatives that turned the Argos down. It was the same scenario with Collaros previously. Sounds like the only way either of these guys were going to sign with the Argos was if they released Ray first and guaranteed them starting status. Had the Argos done that, which would have been a gamble based on sample size of the others, and they tuned out to be not that great, people would be screaming. They were in a no win situation.

IMO, the Argos were right not to release Ray, and if it meant losing those guys in the process, then so be it.


I am not so sure this had anything to do with the contract perhaps tabled or not by the Argos.
Ultimately it may have had everything to do with the way he was treated by the HC for the the playoff game.
Giving Ray the start against the Cats when clearly everyone knew he was still injured over Harris could have been an indicator and ultimately a slap in the face to him.

[R.J]

Trent Guy was in our starting receiving core. Enough said.
I remember Guy was on the team returning kicks - wasn't sure if he was starting on offence as well, but yeah enough said lol.

[Johno27]

I remember Guy was on the team returning kicks - wasn't sure if he was starting on offence as well, but yeah enough said lol.

Just to confirm, he was one of the starting receivers. In fact, Ray threw at 20-yard TD pass to Guy for Argos' only touchdown in that forgettable game.

[AngeloV]

I am not so sure this had anything to do with the contract perhaps tabled or not by the Argos.
Ultimately it may have had everything to do with the way he was treated by the HC for the the playoff game.
Giving Ray the start against the Cats when clearly everyone knew he was still injured over Harris could have been an indicator and ultimately a slap in the face to him.

Barker specifically said the offer was made before Ray returned last year, so it had nothing to do with that.

[R.J]

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/10/argos-harris-move-on-from-each-other

Considering the whole Harris/Ray/Collaros debate has started up again; a good read for those interested.