Week 4: Ottawa redblacks @ Toronto Argonauts, July 13 Game Thread

[Will]

One heck of a tough matchup for the Boatmen. Ottawa seems to be firing on all cylinders so far.

[mchesher03]

It will be a battle. However, as much as I don't want to rip Harris cause I think he's good, we all did notice our offence sputter down the stretch last year. He is open to the same criticisms that Ray has received - holding the ball too long, not being overly mobile, etc. I think keeping Chris Williams under wraps is huge for this one - he's good at getting open and Harris is quite good at finding him! Feel as though keeping their offence contained and forcing 2nd and longs is key - if our D-line plays like last week that would help tremendously. Offensively, stay on the field, move the chains, hopefully keep Whittaker involved and I like our odds to win it. That said we're getting treated to 2 very good matchups to start off our home schedule.

[Argo]

It will be a battle. However, as much as I don't want to rip Harris cause I think he's good, we all did notice our offence sputter down the stretch last year. He is open to the same criticisms that Ray has received - holding the ball too long, not being overly mobile, etc. I think keeping Chris Williams under wraps is huge for this one - he's good at getting open and Harris is quite good at finding him! Feel as though keeping their offence contained and forcing 2nd and longs is key - if our D-line plays like last week that would help tremendously. Offensively, stay on the field, move the chains, hopefully keep Whittaker involved and I like our odds to win it. That said we're getting treated to 2 very good matchups to start off our home schedule.

Harris' mobility has looked entirely adequate this season.

As I recall, the 2015 Argonauts - from Milanovich on down - tanked - not just Harris. Further, the team had every right to do so.

Let's just play Wednesday's game and see where things stand. If the Argos win, being (AFAIK) at something of an injury disadvantage, it'll be a particularly significant victory in more ways than one.

[Wobbler]

Hmm. Are you defending their right to not play well? I suppose players aren't *legally* obligated to perform, but the question never occured...

I'm more interested in who's healthy this week. Do we get Gabriel back? Maybe even Jefferson?

[Argo57]

This will be a huge test, Ottawa has built a really good team in a relatively short period of time.
Harris is in a groove and will be out to stick it to the Argonauts.
Once again the line of scrimmage will tell the tale, Argos O-Line must protect Ray and give him time, while also establishing the running game.
D-Line needs to pressure Harris and disrupt him, if they don't it will be a long night.

[Stevoman]

Triple team Williams and put pressure on Harris!

[AngeloV]

Triple team Williams and put pressure on Harris!

I say we hire Jeff Gillooly to Nancy Kerrigan him. Then we can hear the screams of "WHY? WHY? WHY?"

:D

[Scooter McCray]

We have Ottawa on 5 days and in our building. This is a big advantage. Can't double team Williams because all of their receivers are all stars. This is why the team us so good offensively regardless of QB. Argos match up well. Only team to sweep them last year I believe except Edmonton but Ottawa already has that monkey off their back.

[Argo]

Hmm. Are you defending their right to not play well? I suppose players aren't *legally* obligated to perform, but the question never occured...

Huh ?!?

[AngeloV]

We have Ottawa on 5 days and in our building. This is a big advantage. Can't double team Williams because all of their receivers are all stars. This is why the team us so good offensively regardless of QB. Argos match up well. Only team to sweep them last year I believe except Edmonton but Ottawa already has that monkey off their back.

Not as big an advantage as it seems. We have 21 hours more since we both last played, but we also had to travel cross country.




I'm more interested in who's healthy this week. Do we get Gabriel back? Maybe even Jefferson?

Frank Z's column today says Jefferson is expected back. Also says Gabriel is a wait and see situation. I would sit him 1 more game.

[PullTogether73]

I say we hire Jeff Gillooly to Nancy Kerrigan him. Then we can hear the screams of "WHY? WHY? WHY?"

:D

This is about the only solution.
Harris has said that Williams is the fastest receiver with whom he has ever played.
No one on the Argos will be able to cover him.

And double/triple covering him leaves Ellingson and Sinopoli open.
They've been lighting it up pretty well.

[AngeloV]

This is about the only solution.
Harris has said that Williams is the fastest receiver with whom he has ever played.
No one on the Argos will be able to cover him.

And double/triple covering him leaves Ellingson and Sinopoli open.
They've been lighting it up pretty well.

In all seriousness you have to get physical with him. Need to bump him right off the line of scrimmage with some over the top help in case he eludes the bump. He's fast, but he's tiny.

[Wobbler]

Frank Z's column today says Jefferson is expected back. Also says Gabriel is a wait and see situation. I would sit him 1 more game.
Great news about AJ. I hear what you're saying about Gabriel - he did reinjure himself awfully quickly - but I really hope he can go. Black just isn't the same.

[Argo57]

We have Ottawa on 5 days and in our building. This is a big advantage. Can't double team Williams because all of their receivers are all stars. This is why the team us so good offensively regardless of QB. Argos match up well. Only team to sweep them last year I believe except Edmonton but Ottawa already has that monkey off their back.

Sure you could, throw an extra DB in and double team him.

[argotom]

This game will be a big test.
For Ray and especially our Defense going against all of the threats with Harris, Williams and the rest of the receiving corps.
So far the RB look like the best team in the league.

[Double Dare]

Triple team Williams and put pressure on Harris! Ha, ha, that's funny!
Ottawa's other great receivers (Ellingson, Sinopoli, etc.) will have a field day.

[argotom]

Sure you could, throw an extra DB in and double team him.

The problem with that theory is you have 3 other 1000+ receivers dangerous in their own way.
A huge test for our DBs.

[Scooter McCray]

[QUOTE=AngeloV;90693]Not as big an advantage as it seems. We have 21 hours more since we both last played, but we also had to travel cross country.

Agreed, but they still have one less practice day and have to travel to us. This means they only have one practice day to prepare for us and we have two. This might be enough to slow down Williams and keep Harris' arm sore. Just better than having to face them on more rest. We need to play physical on their offence. Argos then have 1-1/2 weeks to rest and get Montreal on 4 days. I see no reason we can't get 2 wins coming up in the new building and begin to establish a presence there and take control of the division.

[Argo57]

The problem with that theory is you have 3 other 1000+ receivers dangerous in their own way.
A huge test for our DBs.

Yes, and 6DB's.

[R.J]

Argos should be in tough this game. Ottawa is no pushover and their offence has started off hot, their defence has played well, but I think we have the Special team's edge.

[1argoholic]

We have Ottawa's number and Harris will toss a few picks. We beat Ottawa once again. Harris will whine about clean hits on him and we'll get him off his game. Either that or we'll lose.haha.

[AngeloV]

Great news about AJ. I hear what you're saying about Gabriel - he did reinjure himself awfully quickly - but I really hope he can go. Black just isn't the same.

I honestly think Black is better in coverage, but Gabriel is a great tackler which is what you really need out of your safety.

[mchesher03]

great news if Jefferson is back and healthy.

I'm also of the mindset you rest Gabriel if he's still not 100% - no need to rush him, especially this early in the season. I feel Black is doing an adequate job in his (old) spot. He doesn't have Gabriel's closing speed but in fairness to matt black, few do.

[AngeloV]

Agreed, but they still have one less practice day and have to travel to us. This means they only have one practice day to prepare for us and we have two. This might be enough to slow down Williams and keep Harris' arm sore. Just better than having to face them on more rest. We need to play physical on their offence. Argos then have 1-1/2 weeks to rest and get Montreal on 4 days. I see no reason we can't get 2 wins coming up in the new building and begin to establish a presence there and take control of the division.

Actually, they don't have an extra practice day. The Argos chose not to practice yesterday, and as a result both teams will have a full practice and a walk through before the game. An extra film study day though could be an advantage.

[ArgoRavi]

I am quite confident that Rich Stubler will have a solid gameplan in place for Harris and this Ottawa offence. Last year, Stubler's Calgary defence caused Harris fits in both games.

[Wobbler]

I honestly think Black is better in coverage, but Gabriel is a great tackler which is what you really need out of your safety.
I'm not sure about the difference in coverage ability, but Gabriel's hits are more likely to inspire fear in receivers IMO.

[Argo57]

In all seriousness you have to get physical with him. Need to bump him right off the line of scrimmage with some over the top help in case he eludes the bump. He's fast, but he's tiny.

Just dress a goon, problem solved!

[AngeloV]

Just dress a goon, problem solved!

LOL...

You know what I mean. You just can't give him a cushion, because he is too dangerous with the ball in his hands in open field.

[Argo57]

LOL...

You know what I mean. You just can't give him a cushion, because he is too dangerous with the ball in his hands in open field.

I know exactly what you mean, if you don't make contact with him he will kill you.
Impressed with his development as a receiver .

[Wobbler]

I only saw the OT of the Calgary-Ottawa game, but... didn't Calgary try that? It does seem like a good idea.

[PullTogether73]

In all seriousness you have to get physical with him. Need to bump him right off the line of scrimmage with some over the top help in case he eludes the bump. He's fast, but he's tiny.

I agree with the bump at the line strategy.
If the Argos can disrupt him early in a pass route, it breaks up the timing of the play.
It also gives the D line a better chance to pressure Harris.
However, I think the second DB should be within the 5 yard perimeter of the LOS to ensure jambing at the line.
I believe that if Williams eludes the jamb, he will create space for himself with his speed.

[Wobbler]

Last season Williams put up 58, 101, and 35 yards against us (lined up against Jefferson each time, I think?). I think we can handle him without changing our approach too much.

[AngeloV]

I know exactly what you mean, if you don't make contact with him he will kill you.
Impressed with his development as a receiver .

Hard not to be. He is very hard to cover, which means he doesn`t have to catch a lot of balls in traffic.

[AngeloV]

I only saw the OT of the Calgary-Ottawa game, but... didn't Calgary try that? It does seem like a good idea.

They may have changed their coverage later in the game, but early in the game when he really killed them, Bennett gave him a 10 yard cushion. He caught a 5 yard out and turned the corner on Bennett for a long YAC TD...and Bennett is a good DB. Williams runs a legit 4.2 and does not take long to get to full speed.

[KCargosfan]

This is about the only solution.
Harris has said that Williams is the fastest receiver with whom he has ever played.
No one on the Argos will be able to cover him.

And double/triple covering him leaves Ellingson and Sinopoli open.
They've been lighting it up pretty well.


In all seriousness you have to get physical with him. Need to bump him right off the line of scrimmage with some over the top help in case he eludes the bump. He's fast, but he's tiny.

Exactly. Our DB needs to be in his grill right after the snap and push him around before 5 yards (if that is still the rule, or am I missing that one?)

[Argo]

I know exactly what you mean, if you don't make contact with him he will kill you.
Impressed with his development as a receiver .

Speaking of very fast receivers, I wish that the Argos still had Sinkfield on the roster.

[Wobbler]

They may have changed their coverage later in the game, but early in the game when he really killed them, Bennett gave him a 10 yard cushion. He caught a 5 yard out and turned the corner on Bennett for a long YAC TD...and Bennett is a good DB. Williams runs a legit 4.2 and does not take long to get to full speed.
I hope we saw that (and more) on tape. Thanks!

[Ron]

Last season Williams put up 58, 101, and 35 yards against us (lined up against Jefferson each time, I think?). I think we can handle him without changing our approach too much.

Last season Williams had Burris throwing to him. This season he has Harris ... and we all know that Harris is super far superior to Ricky Ray let alone how vastly superior he is over old Henry Burris.

[KCargosfan]

Last season Williams had Burris throwing to him. This season he has Harris ... and we all know that Harris is super far superior to Ricky Ray let alone how vastly superior he is over old Henry Burris.

haha, thumbs up for some solid sarcasm there.

[Wobbler]

I could complain about the lack of buildup but I'll *advocate* instead. It's Ray vs. Harris, dammit!

Were we right to keep the proven star? MAYBE!

Should we have paid the price to keep a potential prodigy? MAYBE!

Let's find out!

[1argoholic]

Harris will try to hard and make mistakes and we'll win or Harris will play lights out and we'll lose. Really hard to tell. haha. If we lose we'll never hear the end of the we kept the wrong qb bs. This league is a marathon and not a sprint. Ricky can beat anyone in a marathon.

[AngeloV]

Last season Williams had Burris throwing to him. This season he has Harris ... and we all know that Harris is super far superior to Ricky Ray let alone how vastly superior he is over old Henry Burris.

Sarcasm aside, Burris throws with a lot more heat than Harris, who definitely is more of a touch passer. Maybe the softer passes work better for Williams. He did drop a lot of balls last year.

["Issues"Mcgee]

Normally I'd say the Argos have to put up more points to win this game, but I fear if Ricky throws any less than three hail Mary td passes, the league won't count the win.

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> DB AJ Jefferson will make his 2016 debut tomorrow night. In his 2015 rookie season, he posted 57 total tackles and three INTs. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts PR (@Argonauts_PR) <a href="https://twitter.com/Argonauts_PR/status/752896290095267840">July 12, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Wobbler]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> depth chart for tomorrow night’s game vs. <a href="https://twitter.com/REDBLACKS">@REDBLACKS</a> at BMO Field. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> <a href="https://t.co/43kerk5TUn">pic.twitter.com/43kerk5TUn</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts PR (@Argonauts_PR) <a href="https://twitter.com/Argonauts_PR/status/752895703689662464">July 12, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's a good looking secondary. Interesting that we've moved Greenwood to the middle and Isaac is now starting at WIL. Maybe not the strongest group against the run, but we should be able to cover rather well.

[1argoholic]

Hopefully they cover well forcing Harris to panic a bit. He can't beat us by scrambling. We can't have breakdowns leaving little speedsters wide open.

[AngeloV]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> depth chart for tomorrow night’s game vs. <a href="https://twitter.com/REDBLACKS">@REDBLACKS</a> at BMO Field. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> <a href="https://t.co/43kerk5TUn">pic.twitter.com/43kerk5TUn</a></p>— Toronto Argonauts PR (@Argonauts_PR) <a href="https://twitter.com/Argonauts_PR/status/752895703689662464">July 12, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's a good looking secondary. Interesting that we've moved Greenwood to the middle and Isaac is now starting at WIL. Maybe not the strongest group against the run, but we should be able to cover rather well.

I think you may see AK sub in for Issac on 2nd and long situations. Bates also ahead of Miles. Looking for the Argos to perhaps continue to get their ground game going.

[R.J]

While Greenwood's natural position is MLB, I'm a little surprised the Argos are moving him to the middle; he's been lights out at wil. Surprisingly Isaac has played well so far this season, so maybe the team wants to see Isaac on the field more. Miles hasn't really been noticeable at mike either, so that could be another reason for the move.

Love seeing Jefferson back and Berry IMO has earned the right to continue starting.

[AngeloV]

While Greenwood's natural position is MLB, I'm a little surprised the Argos are moving him to the middle; he's been lights out at wil. Surprisingly Isaac has played well so far this season, so maybe the team wants to see Isaac on the field more. Miles hasn't really been noticeable at mike either, so that could be another reason for the move.

Love seeing Jefferson back and Berry IMO has earned the right to continue starting.

I think they just want more speed out there to try and control Chris Williams.

[paulwoods13]

Williams is great right now, no question. People are going gaga over the fact he has 493 yards receiving in three games. Terry Greer had 676 yards in a three-game stretch in 1983. Just sayin'.

[Ron]

Williams is great right now, no question. People are going gaga over the fact he has 493 yards receiving in three games. Terry Greer had 676 yards in a three-game stretch in 1983. Just sayin'.

And then the other teams saw that and shut Greer down the rest of the year ... right? :)

[1argoholic]

The thick humid air should slow Williams down. haha.

[Will]

And then the other teams saw that and shut Greer down the rest of the year ... right? :)

A more modest 1,327 yards in 13 games. Ironically, Greer put up his best game of the year against the Rough Riders (something like 15-16 receptions), but was shut out in the next Ottawa game that year.

[paulwoods13]

A more modest 1,327 yards in 13 games. Ironically, Greer put up his best game of the year against the Rough Riders (something like 15-16 receptions), but was shut out in the next Ottawa game that year.

Only game in his career he didn't catch at least one pass, with possible exception of Game 4 in 1981 when he suffered a career-ending injury shortly after returning a kickoff 109 yards (IIRC) for a TD.

[AngeloV]

Only game in his career he didn't catch at least one pass, with possible exception of Game 4 in 1981 when he suffered a career-ending injury shortly after returning a kickoff 109 yards (IIRC) for a TD.

Career ending? I think he had a not so bad career after that, considering it was before any of his big seasons.

I get that you meant season ending. Just having fun with ya.

[paulwoods13]

Good lord, I am totally in vacation mode -- my brain has gone to sleep in another time zone. Thankfully his career did not end in 1981.

Enjoy tomorrow's game, all. Hopefully it will be the only one I can't attend this year.

[ArgoGabe22]

Good lord, I am totally in vacation mode -- my brain has gone to sleep in another time zone. Thankfully his career did not end in 1981.

Enjoy tomorrow's game, all. Hopefully it will be the only one I can't attend this year.

Been there, done that. Tomorrow I'll be getting my first BMO experience so I'm pretty excited. Just wish it wasn't so humid.

[Argo]

Good article in my favourite newspaper:
https://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2016/07/12/argos-wont-let-redblacks-reputation-dictate-their-game.html

[gilthethrill]

Only game in his career he didn't catch at least one pass, with possible exception of Game 4 in 1981 when he suffered a career-ending injury shortly after returning a kickoff 109 yards (IIRC) for a TD.

I recall listening to that game on AM radio...weak signal and all on a Saturday night...Hamilton killed them. Paul revealed in his book that the team buses did not get booked so the Argos travelled in their uniforms in hastily rented school buses....I think the final was 57-10 in favour of the Cats. Anyway, I expect the game plan that Stubler has in place for Ottawa will dumbfounded Harris.

[1argoholic]

Will fans give Harris a clap and then boo his arse all night long after or just boo him for leaving right from the get go? I'd boo him and yell vulgarity all game long but I'll be on my couch and getting in crap for swearing all game long from my wife. haha.

[ArgoZ]

Williams is great right now, no question. People are going gaga over the fact he has 493 yards receiving in three games. Terry Greer had 676 yards in a three-game stretch in 1983. Just sayin'.

True, he is a great threat, but not some all time great receiver like Greer. Ismail had his speed and he wasn't a huge factor on receptions. Some well timed zone coverage can beat Williams. It's not like our DB's are flat footed either and Williams isn't known for taking advantage of the underneath space needed to cover him by using "Masotti" like curls and outs.

[Argo]

Some well timed zone coverage can beat Williams.

Ah, zone coverage... puts me in mind of Bob Hayes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/20/sports/bob-hayes-stellar-sprinter-and-receiver-is-dead-at-59.html

[ArgoRavi]

Will fans give Harris a clap and then boo his arse all night long after or just boo him for leaving right from the get go? I'd boo him and yell vulgarity all game long but I'll be on my couch and getting in crap for swearing all game long from my wife. haha.

Owens was booed and he wasn't even offered a contract from the Argos so the fans should be much harsher on Harris who clearly rejected the Argos.

[paulwoods13]

Ismail had his speed and he wasn't a huge factor on receptions.

By the end of his rookie season Ismail was a superb receiver, arguably our leading downfield threat. He played on a team that was stacked with talented receivers (Smith, Masotti, Williams) and spread the ball around so his stats weren't insanely huge, but I distinctly recall how his receiving skills developed through that season. Had he stayed more than two years, and had the Argos kept Dunigan as their QB, I believe he might have become one of the all-time greats.

[ArgoZ]

By the end of his rookie season Ismail was a superb receiver, arguably our leading downfield threat. He played on a team that was stacked with talented receivers (Smith, Masotti, Williams) and spread the ball around so his stats weren't insanely huge, but I distinctly recall how his receiving skills developed through that season. Had he stayed more than two years, and had the Argos kept Dunigan as their QB, I believe he might have become one of the all-time greats.

Ismail showed huge promise at the 91 season end. So much so that the plan in 92 looked like it was to get him the ball every play they could and forget about those solid teammates. Obviously, it didn't work and Ottawa won't be able to throw to Williams every play either.

Good points though. Ismail had a few solid receiving years for the Raiders after the Argos, but got lost in the talent pool I guess. Had he stayed in the CFL, I agree, he could have put up huge numbers.

[ArgofanIan]

Heading to the game early today....starting to look like Go train is best way for me... will give street car one more try...

Really like our new stadium... some of the views of the city are breath taking.... very similar to THF to me. I really like the standing / viewing from the end zones....

The CFL east looks to be interesting again....looks like if Ottawa or Ticats want to get to the grey Cup.... they are going to need to beat us... and we look real good right now... Go ARGOS !!

[Will]

I would prefer to use public transit tonight given the traffic restrictions around BMO, but the location of my work relative to the subway and my house makes it impractical--oh well!

[1argoholic]

GO trains will be running slower because of the heat. Can you believe the amount of crap that keeps flowing. They should have built a stadium out on the lake and ferry people out. I'm really glad we didn't get seasons. I would have been pissed to find that out adding more time on to the long night.

[R.J]

GO trains will be running slower because of the heat. Can you believe the amount of crap that keeps flowing. They should have built a stadium out on the lake and ferry people out. I'm really glad we didn't get seasons. I would have been pissed to find that out adding more time on to the long night.
Even if the team was still playing out of the dome; the Go trains would still run slower because of the heat.

[Will]

Ismail had his speed and he wasn't a huge factor on receptions.

I would say that he was and any decline in 1992 was due to the ill-advised decision to keep Foggie over Dunigan:

Receiving:


<tbody>
Player
No. (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?teamstats=CFLTOR&year=1991&recsort=1)
Yds (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?teamstats=CFLTOR&year=1991&recsort=2)
Avg. (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?teamstats=CFLTOR&year=1991&recsort=3)
Long (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?teamstats=CFLTOR&year=1991&recsort=4)
TDs (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?teamstats=CFLTOR&year=1991&recsort=5)


Darrell Smith (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=smithdar007)
73
1399
19.2
89
9


Rocket Ismail (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=ismairoc001)
64
1300
20.3
87
9


Michael Clemons (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=clemomic001)
38
417
11.0
28
2


David Williams (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=willidav003)
29
552
19.0
68
6


Paul Masotti (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=masotpau001)
23
360
15.7
36
2


Jeff Boyd (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=boydjef001)
22
460
20.9
85
3


J.P. Izquierdo (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=izquijp001)
18
187
10.4
23
2


Andrew Murray (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=murraand001)
15
286
19.1
52
2


Trumaine Johnson (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=johnstru001)
12
206
17.2
34
1


Kevin Smellie (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=smellkev001)
7
57
8.1
17
0


Keith Kelly (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=kellykei001)
6
38
6.3
17
0


Darryl Clack (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=clackdar001)
4
113
28.3
56
1


Paul Nastasiuk (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=nastapau001)
4
50
12.5
18
0


Totals
315
5425
17.2
89
37


Opponents

4,887
0.0



</tbody>

[1argoholic]

You would think that GO would have it's shit together as it gets hot every summer. It gets cold in the winter. Build track systems that can run in both conditions. Just a head shaker and yet another stupid issue for fans heading to the game to deal with.

[AngeloV]

I would say that he was and any decline in 1992 was due to the ill-advised decision to keep Foggie over Dunigan:

Receiving:


<tbody>
Player
No. (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?teamstats=CFLTOR&year=1991&recsort=1)
Yds (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?teamstats=CFLTOR&year=1991&recsort=2)
Avg. (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?teamstats=CFLTOR&year=1991&recsort=3)
Long (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?teamstats=CFLTOR&year=1991&recsort=4)
TDs (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?teamstats=CFLTOR&year=1991&recsort=5)


Darrell Smith (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=smithdar007)
73
1399
19.2
89
9


Rocket Ismail (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=ismairoc001)
64
1300
20.3
87
9


Michael Clemons (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=clemomic001)
38
417
11.0
28
2


David Williams (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=willidav003)
29
552
19.0
68
6


Paul Masotti (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=masotpau001)
23
360
15.7
36
2


Jeff Boyd (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=boydjef001)
22
460
20.9
85
3


J.P. Izquierdo (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=izquijp001)
18
187
10.4
23
2


Andrew Murray (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=murraand001)
15
286
19.1
52
2


Trumaine Johnson (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=johnstru001)
12
206
17.2
34
1


Kevin Smellie (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=smellkev001)
7
57
8.1
17
0


Keith Kelly (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=kellykei001)
6
38
6.3
17
0


Darryl Clack (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=clackdar001)
4
113
28.3
56
1


Paul Nastasiuk (http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballstatsindex.php?player_id=nastapau001)
4
50
12.5
18
0


Totals
315
5425
17.2
89
37


Opponents

4,887
0.0



</tbody>



Those high average yards per reception really reflect how the game has changed today. In tat day, teams used 3 actual LB's, and 3 or 4 deep looks on D were never seen. Masotti's 15.4 avg was the lowest of the receivers. Today, that would likely be top 5 in the league.

[Neely2005]

You would think that GO would have it's shit together as it gets hot every summer. It gets cold in the winter. Build track systems that can run in both conditions. Just a head shaker and yet another stupid issue for fans heading to the game to deal with.

I heard them talking about this on the radio. Apparently they can use a different steel in the rails to withstand the heat but that steel can't withstand the cold in the winter.

[1argoholic]

Get Hamilton on this issue and get them to make some track, those Steel City folks can do it.

[Argo]

Referee is Andre Proulx. I hope the Argos are successful on their turd down conversions.

(Just a joke, folks... Andre's English is sideways-8 better than my French.)

[Argo]

It was fun watching Bishop push his double-team back into the QB. Same again, KB.

[1argoholic]

That makes me laugh as well Argo.

[1argoholic]

Can't even watch with all of those red seats. WTF? Let's just make if harder and harder for fans to get in to the game. Maybe the next game they'll shut all the roads and stop transit.

[KCargosfan]

It was fun watching Bishop push his double-team back into the QB. Same again, KB.

Bishop is a beast.

[ArgoZ]

Can't even watch with all of those red seats. WTF? Let's just make if harder and harder for fans to get in to the game. Maybe the next game they'll shut all the roads and stop transit.

It's not a good night for a variety of reasons, so I wouldn't put too much stock into attendance. Could be a late arriving crowd thanks to the traffic. However, judging by tonight's crowd, I am even more confident in my estimation of 7000 season tickets. Tonight's game should have great TV numbers, as there is nothing on except a TFC game.

[KCargosfan]

TSN getting all of its TV timeouts out of the way early tonight.

[KCargosfan]

Rod Black and Duane Ford look like morons when they are the only ones on the planet who haven't figured out that TD doesn't count.

[1argoholic]

Look like? They are two morons. Then Black still didn't clue in on the next play.

Now the topic of friggin attendance will be all the media goes on about. Guess they scored and I missed it. I can't help but to go on about not starting marketing soon enough as this is such an uphill battle in the very screwed market of Toronto. Plus the Argos still get so little respect. CFTO mentioned the game on TSN but that was it.

[KCargosfan]

Terrible PI call by the officials there.

[1argoholic]

Nice back to back sacks! Harris should start whining soon.

[KCargosfan]

I still can't believe how much we fleeced the Riders on that Lemon trade. Barker completely put a clown suit on Jones on that one.

[KCargosfan]

Kenny Shaw tearing it up!

[ArgoZ]

I still can't believe how much we fleeced the Riders on that Lemon trade. Barker completely put a clown suit on Jones on that one. That was an awesome spin move by Lemon. I am so not used to seeing a well performing Argonaut D-line. Hope they can keep this up all year.

[KCargosfan]

Not really a fan of being able to challenge a no-call on PI, even though it benefitted us that time.

[KCargosfan]

1, 2, 3, 4 Missed tackles on that play.

[1argoholic]

Why can't Black just get fired already? He's become such a joke for all CFL fans.

[ArgoZ]

1, 2, 3, 4 Missed tackles on that play.
Hickman went for the strip, but coulda, shoulda, woulda went for the tackle.

[KCargosfan]

This is really, really stupid you can challenge a non-PI call. That was good coverage against Shaw by whomever that RB DB is.

[KCargosfan]

Are our DBs playing too far off the los?

[1argoholic]

I just can't help being pissed when they show all of those red seats. We're no further ahead and plenty of work is still ahead. At least the seats at the dome were blue. Next game is on a Monday which will be no better.

[larz-7]

had a good feeling about this game at the start but now starting to drink heavily

["Issues"Mcgee]

I just can't help being pissed when they show all of those red seats. We're no further ahead and plenty of work is still ahead. At least the seats at the dome were blue. Next game is on a Monday which will be no better.

You're one to talk for someone who repeatedly expresses his pride in not getting seasons this year.

Enough with the negativity already.

[1argoholic]

It's reality not negativity.

[larz-7]

this is not good sorry for being negative

[KCargosfan]

Interesting how they talk about going deep to Harris at halftime. Then on the second play of the half he throws the ball 45 yards through the air.

[1argoholic]

Argos D are making Ellingson look like a monster and speedster. They forgot how to cover and tackle a slow guy but on the bright side see that lovely sky in the background.

[KCargosfan]

Ken Bishop takes on the double team to get a sack. Dude is $.

[KCargosfan]

Scheduling this game during Indy week was just plain dumb by the CFL.

[1argoholic]

Nice long drives against a good D. We just have to hold Ellingson. The only guy who's done anything.

Another thing. The Argos have to have the best receiving core in the league. Spencer and Elliott our out and we don't miss a beat. Everyone of these guys from top to bottom can play.

[Argo57]

Jefferson giving Ellingson way too much room.

[1argoholic]

I'm going out on a limb and calling Ellingson a player of the week. Argos are making him look like a total superstar tonight. I wonder what the folks watching on ESPN think Rod?

[1argoholic]

We need a punter and some guys who can tackle.

[KCargosfan]

If we lose this game we can easily point to missed tackles on the long pass to Ellingson and the punt return.

[larz-7]

or if we loose by one the missed convert

[1argoholic]

Missed tackles all game long.

[larz-7]

after rods orgasm on that return i had to turn it off.so i am counting on you guys for up dates.thankyou in advance

[KCargosfan]

If I'm Ottawa Milo is not kicking for me next week.

[KCargosfan]

How many times has Ray been sacked tonight?

[Argo57]

Trevor who??

[KCargosfan]

Kind of a C+ game from us all the way around (except for the F grade we get on the long pass play and punt return)

[Neely2005]

So much for our new home field advantage.
:-(

[Will]

A disappointing result and a disappointing 4th quarter from the Argos, although realistically the team only showed up for 1 1/2 quarter and Ottawa pretty much took over after the Argos scored to make it 13-0 in the 2nd Q. Ottawa tightened up defensively and it didn't help that the O-line was pretty brutal in the 2nd half, and it isn't like Ottawa was a team that had been putting up ridiculous sack totals either. I'm really not going to blame Ray for anything that happened out there, but I'm seriously beginning to think that there are deficiencies in our receiving corps in that there isn't enough speed out there.

Harris completed 28/31 passes for 392 yards, which is insane and a brutal result against even if many of the throws were safe and high percentage in nature! They contained Williams well enough so credit there, but Ellingson killed the Argos and the Redblack offense in general executed screen pass after screen pass to perfection. It seems miraculous that the Argos D only surrendered 23 points on the evening. It was disappointing though that the Argos went up 13-0 and then Ottawa scored a TD then the Argos go up 20-17 and again D can't get a stop.

I don't even wanna talk about Tristan Jackson's punt return.

The Argos essentially lost on 3 plays while our offense couldn't respond in kind.

[Stevoman]

Argos played well but it was not good enough. Missed tackles definitely hurt. Disappointing attendance too. Argos look good but not great but they look like they will be in the hunt with the potential to do some damage once their offence gets healthy and their defence adjusts more to Stubler's schemes.

[argotom]

Ray was much better than the first game, but both TD's were penalty assisted.
There were also two picks that were called back on flags by the RB, I recall the same thing during the opening night.
Harris on the other hand was MOP material throwing for nearly 400 yards and what 28-31 completions.
I saw Barker walking on the Argo sidelines and surely he could not be pleased with the showing.

[Neely2005]

Hogie calling out fans on the TSN 1050 post game show. Saying that there's no more excuses for not attending Argonauts games.

[Will]

Hogie calling out fans on the TSN 1050 post game show. Saying that there's no more excuses for not attending Argonauts games.

He's right.

[Scooter McCray]

12000 at BMO has no atmosphere either. Ottawa committed 19 penalties. The Argos should have beaten them.

[Neely2005]

He's right.

For the most part I agree with him. I think that he was off when he said that you can take the GO Train and avoid traffic. That's not an option if you live North or South of the city.

We had 6 people there tonight and 5 of them had to drive because transit isn't an option. The 6th person took the GO Train from Oakville.

[Neely2005]

12000 at BMO has no atmosphere either. Ottawa committed 19 penalties. The Argos should have beaten them.

The West side was rocking pretty good, but it was also 90+% sold out.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

The attendance next week will be up by one for sure. Bleeds Double Blue makes his annual trek next week to take in the Montreal game. Time for some tailgatin' and a home field W.

[LLB997]

Get Hamilton on this issue and get them to make some track, those Steel City folks can do it.


You give Hamilton's work ethic way too much credit. Has Tim Hort. Field even been completed yet? I'm thinking all those hard hats at the game are mandatory.

[LLB997]

Hogie calling out fans on the TSN 1050 post game show. Saying that there's no more excuses for not attending Argonauts games.

i call out Hogie on his call out. i am psyched to go to a game at BMO and have yet to see one.

This Argos rebranding is an effort in half measures....

improved game atmosphere - CHECK
improved venue - CHECK
improved pre game festivities - CHECK
improved game schedule -

[KCargosfan]

The attendance next week will be up by one for sure. Bleeds Double Blue makes his annual trek next week to take in the Montreal game. Time for some tailgatin' and a home field W.

Hopefully. A Monday night game isn't likely to fair a whole lot better, but I'm guessing not having the Indy conflict should help.

[ArgoRavi]

If we lose this game we can easily point to missed tackles on the long pass to Ellingson and the punt return.

IMO, those plays were certainly the difference in the game.

[PullTogether73]

i call out Hogie on his call out. i am psyched to go to a game at BMO and have yet to see one.

This Argos rebranding is an effort in half measures....

improved game atmosphere - CHECK
improved venue - CHECK
improved pre game festivities - CHECK
improved game schedule -

Those are all items that are controlled by the Argos and CFL.
They can't make fans turn out to games.

The poor attendance is on the fans (or lack therof).
Hogie is right.

[1argoholic]

Hogie says it and he's correct. I say it on here and I'm negative. While living in Mississauga I missed one game in 20 years because of a friends wedding. Times have changed for me and I'd like nothing more then to be there but I can't.
Have the owners done enough? I think they should start marketing year round. You've become the bottom of the barrel and it's going to be difficult to crawl out. Losing home games won't help.

We should have won but missed tackling killed us plain and simple. Harris looked good because of our missed tackles. He tosses little five yard passes that turn into 70 yrds.


The thing that bothers me is that obviously BMO isn't enough. We need a schedule that isn't all over the place. All the talk was small outdoor stadium and people will flood down. The owners know how many season seats they have and what they should be doing to get more people interested again.

[Neely2005]

i call out Hogie on his call out. i am psyched to go to a game at BMO and have yet to see one.

This Argos rebranding is an effort in half measures....

improved game atmosphere - CHECK
improved venue - CHECK
improved pre game festivities - CHECK
improved game schedule -

3 out of 4 is half measures?

We knew that TFC starting late due to the renovations would affect the Argonauts schedule. Still the schedule isn't horrible, most of our games are during the summer and if you live on the Lakeshore West GO line the stadium is easy to get to.

[Neely2005]

Hogie says it and he's correct. I say it on here and I'm negative. While living in Mississauga I missed one game in 20 years because of a friends wedding. Times have changed for me and I'd like nothing more then to be there but I can't.
Have the owners done enough? I think they should start marketing year round. You've become the bottom of the barrel and it's going to be difficult to crawl out. Losing home games won't help.

We should have won but missed tackling killed us plain and simple. Harris looked good because of our missed tackles. He tosses little five yard passes that turn into 70 yrds.


The thing that bothers me is that obviously BMO isn't enough. We need a schedule that isn't all over the place. All the talk was small outdoor stadium and people will flood down. The owners know how many season seats they have and what they should be doing to get more people interested again.

Marketing all year round is a waste of money. Would you be marketing your ski resort right now?

[Will]

Hogie calling out fans on the TSN 1050 post game show. Saying that there's no more excuses for not attending Argonauts games.

Calling out those who are supposedly watching on television, but not coming out to the games?

[Double Dare]

Ottawa committed 19 penalties. The Argos should have beaten them. Argos committed 9 penalties with only 50 less yards taken away.

[Golden Fleece]

I enjoyed the game and the atmosphere despite the empty east stands. Honestly think people don't know what they're missing. My buddy was up from the States and he really enjoyed the experience and the game.

As others have mentioned, the game was tight save for two missed tackles. Only other play that bothered me from last night was on the first or second TD drive, Hazelton ran a perfect in route near the back of the end zone, beat his man, then the next closest DB fell down and Ray didn't pick him up for the easy TD. Obviously I don't know what his reads were for that play, but it was tough watching Vidal overlooked. Glad they eventually punched it in, even if it took some penalties to nullify a pick 6 to do it.

[1argoholic]

The Argonauts are behind the eight ball in TO so yes I'd market year round. They are starting from the bottom obviously. At least get people thinking about them. It doesn't help when tv stations barely mention them during sports.

[argotom]

It has been a scorched earth on top of the US wannabe factor with the kool aid drinking fans and media.
There is major work required and frankly I am not sure this thing will ever work, as I hate to admit and hope I am dead wrong, as being only a CFL/Argo fan here in the city.

[1argoholic]

Something has to give. It seems like if you're not playing against US teams you are somehow lower class when it come to Toronto sports fans. They just seem to not give a crap about Canada and associate with the US more. I just will never understand. Yet they go all gaga for losing Leaf hockey. Winning doesn't matter. I don't know.

[Neely2005]

Calling out those who are supposedly watching on television, but not coming out to the games?

Yes exactly.

[AngeloV]

Still very depressed about last night. As we all know, tackling was absolutely brutal. I think at least 200 yards of Ottawa's passing attack came on completions before the line of scrimmage. That just can't happen. Punt return TD...the ball has already hit the turf. Make the tackle. A no yards in that situation is only 5 yards. TAKE THE DAMN PENALTY.

I'm still not down on Ray. He certainly doesn't need excuses, but Ottawa did a good job of taking away Hazelton after the first quarter. Not having Gurley, Elliott and Spencer sure doesn't help.

Regarding the attendance? My buddy and I have decided we are no longer going to talk about it, and just enjoy the football. The only thing that is now very certain is that the Argos are nowhere near 15k in season ticket sales. Maybe it's time to lock that thread.

[Neely2005]

The Argonauts are behind the eight ball in TO so yes I'd market year round. They are starting from the bottom obviously. At least get people thinking about them. It doesn't help when tv stations barely mention them during sports.

You're better off saving that money and doubling down in the Spring, Summer and Fall. Marketing in the winter would be a waste of money.

[Stevoman]

Well, I didn't expect for the attendance to be as bad as it was in only the second game but we do need to keep in mind that it was only the second game. Game 1 had all the hype and curiosity and the Argos played poorly. They do well on the road but come back to a mid-week game and play well but still lose. It will take time (maybe years) to slowly rebuild the momentum but the biggest draw, now that the stadium is in place, is a winning team. If the Argos go on a roll (starting with beating Montreal next), then more and more fans will come to check it out.

[AngeloV]

Well, I didn't expect for the attendance to be as bad as it was in only the second game but we do need to keep in mind that it was only the second game. Game 1 had all the hype and curiosity and the Argos played poorly. They do well on the road but come back to a mid-week game and play well but still lose. It will take time (maybe years) to slowly rebuild the momentum but the biggest draw, now that the stadium is in place, is a winning team. If the Argos go on a roll (starting with beating Montreal next), then more and more fans will come to check it out.

Thanks for the positive post. We sure can use more of that around here.

[Neely2005]

Something has to give. It seems like if you're not playing against US teams you are somehow lower class when it come to Toronto sports fans. They just seem to not give a crap about Canada and associate with the US more. I just will never understand. Yet they go all gaga for losing Leaf hockey. Winning doesn't matter. I don't know.

The funny thing is that Americans don't want to watch Canadian teams. When a Canadian NBA or MLB team (and to a lesser extent NHL teams) visits a US city they are the lowest attended and lowest ticket demand games.

[Wobbler]

I wasn't able to see the game. It sounds like part of our problem was that the OL deteriorated over time. If true, was that fatigue? Scheming by Ottawa? Poor play from specific people? If anything I thought Ottawa would be the one to weaken over time...

[AngeloV]

I wasn't able to see the game. It sounds like part of our problem was that the OL deteriorated over time. If true, was that fatigue? Scheming by Ottawa? Poor play from specific people? If anything I thought Ottawa would be the one to weaken over time...

I don't think the O-line was particularly bad. On every sack, I looked into the secondary and saw every receiver covered.

[1argoholic]

I know right Neely. American cut to commercials during our anthem.

The thing is that I've been one of the guys being very vocal from the get go about BMO not being the sole answer and on and on about marketing. However I got caught up in how well that first game went other then the outcome. I was frankly STUNNED to see the attendance last night. It sucked the life out of me to be honest. My wife had to listen to me bitch, whine and complain for most of the game. It's going to take time and I'm going to try and just think good thoughts. I can't help but be bitter at what my birth place has become. It's falling down the ranks as my favorite place.

[marcwagz]

I was at the game...
I knew thered be a drop off but i was expecting 18000... Not 12.5.
That far side stand was dead empty though.

Walking around i was in huge crowds so i was hoping it matbe wasnt so bad.
But when i saw the actual figure i just was stunned. Couldnt believe it.

I dont get how basebore can draw 40k while the argos cant draw half that.
Major vs minor league no matter, baseball is just a boring sport where people stand around for 85% ofthe game.


Its not just toronto now too, bc is drawing only 18k.
The cfl is tarnished to any big city that thinks they are too good for it.
Im worried one day that will be everywhere except sask.

[Wobbler]

As we all know, tackling was absolutely brutal. I think at least 200 yards of Ottawa's passing attack came on completions before the line of scrimmage. That just can't happen. Punt return TD...the ball has already hit the turf. Make the tackle. A no yards in that situation is only 5 yards. TAKE THE DAMN PENALTY.
I'm actually encouraged to hear that; tackling and decision-making are mostly fixable issues. It's probably not fair to judge Bates too harshly, considering that he had to play unexpectedly, but it does seem that our receiving corps isn't quite as deep as I had hoped.

[shayman]

I'm torn between going through all the excuses - geez, it was like visiting a prison, getting in to the stadium yesterday past all the fences - and worrying about only 12K in spite of that, but also realizing we are at the beginning of a long needed transformation. I've seen more of a marketing push from the team in the past month than I've seen in years, to the point that even Rogers Sportsnet is posting positive articles.

I'm going to think positive. We're just getting started here. Smart people are working hard on this.

[Scooter McCray]

I'm in full blown depression mode about everything last night so I decided to make myself worse and read the sports sections. The globe had one football story this morning. It was about Tommy Brady having his suspension appeal rejected. No article on the Argo game at all. It was a home game. How do you not have a reporter there? For the sake of my mental health I think I will just go to the games and enjoy the football like I have done for the last 40 years. Those rare occasions when the place is full and there is great atmosphere will just be more special. Any non hard core fans there last night will likely not be in a hurry to rush back. 12000 fans and lots of empty seats = zero atmosphere in any stadium.

[Double Dare]

Its not just toronto now too, bc is drawing only 18k.
The cfl is tarnished to any big city that thinks they are too good for it.
Im worried one day that will be everywhere except sask.
This is the trend that I see slowly happening. Young people have different tastes, and "old people" are dying-off. I would hate to see it, but the CFL could go t*** up in the next decade or so. I'm into classic cars, and the same thing is happening in that hobby.
Saskatchewan is the only province that has only one pro team, that's why their fan base is strong (for now).

[ArgoRavi]

I'm actually encouraged to hear that; tackling and decision-making are mostly fixable issues. It's probably not fair to judge Bates too harshly, considering that he had to play unexpectedly, but it does seem that our receiving corps isn't quite as deep as I had hoped.

AV is correct, Wobbler. The deficiencies last night are entirely correctable.

[Neely2005]

I'm in full blown depression mode about everything last night so I decided to make myself worse and read the sports sections. The globe had one football story this morning. It was about Tommy Brady having his suspension appeal rejected. No article on the Argo game at all. It was a home game. How do you not have a reporter there? For the sake of my mental health I think I will just go to the games and enjoy the football like I have done for the last 40 years. Those rare occasions when the place is full and there is great atmosphere will just be more special. Any non hard core fans there last night will likely not be in a hurry to rush back. 12000 fans and lots of empty seats = zero atmosphere in any stadium.

Surprisingly I found the atmosphere in the West stands pretty good last night. The West stands were 90+% sold out though.

[AngeloV]

For the sake of my mental health I think I will just go to the games and enjoy the football like I have done for the last 40 years. Those rare occasions when the place is full and there is great atmosphere will just be more special.

That is the exact same attitude my group decided to take. We are no longer going to dwell on attendance. Just the on field product.

[Argo]

Still very depressed about last night. As we all know, tackling was absolutely brutal. I think at least 200 yards of Ottawa's passing attack came on completions before the line of scrimmage. That just can't happen. Punt return TD...the ball has already hit the turf. Make the tackle. A no yards in that situation is only 5 yards. TAKE THE DAMN PENALTY.

I'm still not down on Ray. He certainly doesn't need excuses, but Ottawa did a good job of taking away Hazelton after the first quarter. Not having Gurley, Elliott and Spencer sure doesn't help.

Regarding the attendance? My buddy and I have decided we are no longer going to talk about it, and just enjoy the football. The only thing that is now very certain is that the Argos are nowhere near 15k in season ticket sales. Maybe it's time to lock that thread.

Haven't seen the game, and didn't know that Gurley was also out. I'm certain that the team really misses Elliot. Barker need to find a speed merchant and cut one of their auxiliary receivers.

Attendance... well I assume that one solid assist would be a team that doesn't typically find ways to lose at home: that is just a downer.

[R.J]

I agree with Don Argo; Ottawa's speedy receivers help make that offense work. There were a lot of screens and swing passes last night, and the difference was Ottawa's receivers got the necessary blocks and runs/yac yards to make it work.

[Argo]

That is the exact same attitude my group decided to take. We are no longer going to dwell on attendance. Just the on field product.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Just as long as the organization takes a rational approach and tries its best to build attendance.

[Jayahre]

I agree with Don Argo; Ottawa's speedy receivers help make that offense work. There were a lot of screens and swing passes last night, and the difference was Ottawa's receivers got the necessary blocks and runs/yac yards to make it work.

I think it was good coaching by Ottawa, I watched Williams through the binoculars on a lot of plays and it seemed they were using him as a decoy which allowed the other receivers to get open. He gets a lot of yardage out of them little curl patterns.
Also a big factor was the Ottawa ability to make tackles, not many times that the Argo RB or receivers were going to break tackles.

[Ron]

That is the exact same attitude my group decided to take. We are no longer going to dwell on attendance. Just the on field product.

In years past attendance was something to worry about since the team might fold. The Argos are not folding and they have a home. If it takes ownership a few seasons to rebuild a decimated brand .. then so F'en what? The franchise's existence is safe.

12K last night did not affect how I watched the actual game. And the atmosphere with 12K was better than 20K at the Dome.

And on another note. To think the new ownership and the CFL didn't see this coming has been proven wrong. Clearly this potential is why they insisted in the Ticats being the home opener as they knew "any team" would not sell out the joint.

So give it time people. Enjoy the football and don't care whether a seat is full. That's the ownership's worry ... not ours.

[Ron]

I was frankly STUNNED to see the attendance last night. It sucked the life out of me to be honest. My wife had to listen to me bitch, whine and complain for most of the game.

You do see the irony that low attendance pissed you off that much as you watched the game from home?

[ArgoGabe22]

I thought the missed FG off the goal post was a blessing. Too bad the offence really struggled late.

Ray has had great chemistry with Owens over the years and I hate to bring it up but maybe giving Owens an offer for one more year wouldn't of been such a bad idea. Now, no one would know Spencer would be injured plus Shaw looks good so maybe not. Just would like to see Ray gel with his recievers more but it's tough with a new lineup every game.

Hickman finally showed up and Lemon is a great addition. Although that rouging call against him was a bit weak. He went low but wasn't late at all. Plus, got pushed from behind and fell into Harris. Just seems everything is now called roughing the passer.

Even though we lost and Harris had great stats, I was actually confident in Stubler's defence the entire game. Offence not so much. So many times Ray was looking deep but nothing was there. If this game is on Ray, then I'm sorry but you need to understand football more. Whitaker really didn't have many holes opening up and the running game was almost nonexistent. But those missed tackles on 4 or 5 plays were brutal. Looked like a touch rec league, not professional football.

Wasn't too fond of Heath or AK9. And what was up with Van Roten's snaps? How long until McEwan takes over?

[mchesher03]

In years past attendance was something to worry about since the team might fold. The Argos are not folding and they have a home. If it takes ownership a few seasons to rebuild a decimated brand .. then so F'en what? The franchise's existence is safe.

12K last night did not affect how I watched the actual game. And the atmosphere with 12K was better than 20K at the Dome.

And on another note. To think the new ownership and the CFL didn't see this coming has been proven wrong. Clearly this potential is why they insisted in the Ticats being the home opener as they knew "any team" would not sell out the joint.

So give it time people. Enjoy the football and don't care whether a seat is full. That's the ownership's worry ... not ours.

agree with Ron. Atmosphere-related arguments aside, the franchise is not going to fold. Tannen-bell is in for the long haul as far as I can tell. They'll figure it out, whatever the issue is. Much smarter people than I are working on it behind the scenes so I'm happy to let them go at it.

[1argoholic]

Ron believe me it's difficult for me to watch from home. As I've mentioned it's great to be back in an area we love but if we could we'd be there. We moved back to Ontario and have to basically rebuild our lives so there's distance, pets, cost etc..etc. So it's sitting at home and wishing and wondering.
I'm having trouble with the whole deal. There's a reason I'm on here as much as I am because I should be out landscaping if I had the work.

[ArgoGabe22]

Still very depressed about last night. As we all know, tackling was absolutely brutal.

I thought I saw you sulking and neededing a moment alone. :D

[Ron]

The only thing that is now very certain is that the Argos are nowhere near 15k in season ticket sales. Maybe it's time to lock that thread.

Just because there aren't 15K now doesn't mean there weren't 15K then. ;)

[Rich]

Barker need to find a speed merchant and cut one of their auxiliary receivers.


Kenny Shaw's got great speed, late in the game on that deep ball he had two steps on the defender and Ricky underthrew him. Game over.

Anyone who says it was the right move to dump Harris is in denial, pure and simple.

[Rich]

Can someone explain to me how Ottawa received the kickoff in both halfs? Did our genius coach actually choose to kick into the wind to start the second half?

[ArgoGabe22]

Anyone who says it was the right move to dump Harris is in denial, pure and simple.

And anyone who doesn't think Harris snubbed the Argos is just trying to bring down our saving grace, Ricky Ray.

[ArgoGabe22]

Can someone explain to me how Ottawa received the kickoff in both halfs? Did our genius coach actually choose to kick into the wind to start the second half?

I'm guessing Argos deferred and chose side instead. Going with the wind in the 4th in case if the game was on the line and was a FG away from a tie or win.

[Rich]

And anyone who doesn't think Harris snubbed the Argos is just trying to bring down our saving grace, Ricky Ray.

They would have given him a better offer if they really wanted to keep him.

[R.J]

And anyone who doesn't think Harris snubbed the Argos is just trying to bring down our saving grace, Ricky Ray.
I don't think it was a full on snub. Lots of moving parts in the situation.

[ArgoGabe22]

They would have given him a better offer if they really wanted to keep him.

They offered him more during the season than Ottawa did in the offseason. Barker was stunned his representatives turned down the offer. If Harris wanted out, then the story changes.

[Rich]

I'm guessing Argos deferred and chose side instead. Going with the wind in the 4th in case if the game was on the line and was a FG away from a tie or win.

Terrible decision. The Redblacks scoring drive in the first 90 seconds of the 3rd quarter turned out to be the huge momentum shift.

[Rich]

They offered him more during the season than Ottawa did in the offseason. Barker was stunned his representatives turned down the offer.

I don't believe this for a second.

[R.J]

They offered him more during the season than Ottawa did in the offseason. Barker was stunned his representatives turned down the offer. If Harris wanted out, then the story changes.
TBH, I take what Barker says with a grain of salt. I don't recall at the time of the negotiations reading or hearing similar numbers to what Ray. I do vaguely recall around $200 or under in base for Harris. According to Barker they were going to give Harris a chance/"open competition"; even I knew what that meant.

I don't believe this for a second.
Neither do I, damage control at this point IMO.

[AngeloV]

Just because there aren't 15K now doesn't mean there weren't 15K then. ;)

Great point..Maybe George Costanza was the salesman. He purchased all the tickets himself in order to beat Lloyd Braun, and then once the contest was over, he cancelled his order.

[Neely2005]

They would have given him a better offer if they really wanted to keep him.

How much did they offer him?

[R.J]

Just because there aren't 15K now doesn't mean there weren't 15K then. ;)
Not that I believe the 15k season ticket number, but I do wonder if the Argonauts are counting the bums in the seats or if they're counting tickets sold. The Roughriders go by how many tickets go through the turnstiles instead of announcing tickets sold. The only reason I bring this up is because in looking at ticketmaster the middle of the second deck on the west side showed very few tickets, but when I looked at it from the East side last night in was pretty empty in the middle.

How much did they offer him?
Nobody knows, and therein lies the problem with this whole debate.

[Rich]

How much did they offer him?

Not enough, obviously.

[R.J]

Not enough, obviously.
I don't think it was just a money issue. Harris wanted to start and probably saw the writing on the wall here.

[Rich]

I don't think it was just a money issue. Harris wanted to start and probably saw the writing on the wall here.

I wasn't referring to just money.

[Scooter McCray]

Some people seem to think the new ownership is in for the long term. I want to believe that too. However if the attendance stays where it is and does not improve how long will they actually stay in? Having said that there is plenty they can do to create interest. First being dedicate air time on their stations to discussing Argo Football consistently and with high production value.

[R.J]

I wasn't referring to just money.
Gotcha.

[Scooter McCray]

Some people seem to think the new ownership is in for the long term. I want to believe that too. However if the attendance stays where it is and does not improve how long will they actually stay in? Having said that there is plenty they can do to create interest. First being dedicate air time on their stations to discussing Argo Football consistently and with high production value. Every game needs to be an event like 1991 to draw fans back in.

[argotom]

I no longer listen to TSN 1050, does Hogan have his Argo show on Wednesday?
You would have thought that ownership means something and even though we are in a wannabe city here, how there would be reasonable CFL/Argos coverage.
The last time I listened and what some posters keep saying on various boards there is little to nothing?
TSN 1050 is Fan 590 light.
Again the former is part of the problem.

[argotom]

In years past attendance was something to worry about since the team might fold. The Argos are not folding and they have a home. If it takes ownership a few seasons to rebuild a decimated brand .. then so F'en what? The franchise's existence is safe.

12K last night did not affect how I watched the actual game. And the atmosphere with 12K was better than 20K at the Dome.

And on another note. To think the new ownership and the CFL didn't see this coming has been proven wrong. Clearly this potential is why they insisted in the Ticats being the home opener as they knew "any team" would not sell out the joint.

So give it time people. Enjoy the football and don't care whether a seat is full. That's the ownership's worry ... not ours.

Agree with you.
However, when we are trying to win over fans it is crucial how the product on the field must be exciting.
Like when discussing with some of my neighbour friends at BMO yesterday, I wonder how many first timers who attended opening night got turned off by the stinker the team produced and obviously did not come back yesterday?

[Argo57]

Kenny Shaw's got great speed, late in the game on that deep ball he had two steps on the defender and Ricky underthrew him. Game over.

Anyone who says it was the right move to dump Harris is in denial, pure and simple.

I have been back and forth on this in the past but always had the nagging feeling that Collaros and Harris leaving would come back to haunt us, and it is.
During training camp Milanovich and the organization were selling the fanbase in regards to Ray's arm strength being back to 2012 form but I haven't seen evidence of this TBH.
Harris's play did in fact regress last season (his first as a CFL starter) but he sure seems to have figured things out.
Elizondo believe it or not out duelled Stubler and both he and Harris were smart enough to take what Toronto's soft D coverage gave them.
Regarding Harris his path was set when Milanovich decided to go with Ray in the ESF, a total slap in the face as Ray wasn't near healthy and was rusty as hell (what's done is done).
The Argonauts tried to hedge their bets and attempt to keep both QB's happy which in hindsight has turned out to be a mistake.
Harris simply reacted as any proud athlete would have and took his skills elsewhere with added determination to prove people wrong (good for him).
Rich, your last statement is correct and the reason many people get pissy when this subject is discussed.

[ArgoGabe22]

I no longer listen to TSN 1050, does Hogan have his Argo show on Wednesday?
You would have thought that ownership means something and even though we are in a wannabe city here, how there would be reasonable CFL/Argos coverage.
The last time I listened and what some posters keep saying on various boards there is little to nothing?
TSN 1050 is Fan 590 light.
Again the former is part of the problem.

No, Argos All Access is no longer on air. Maybe it's ratings weren't very good. Everyone complains when it's gone but did they actually tune in? (I'm not not targeting you Tom, just saying in general)

[ArgoTD]

I think you've identified the real reason he chose to leave - the terrible decision to sit him and go with a clearly still recovery Ray in the ESF last year which I agree was a slap in his face. He was tremendous early on and lead the league in TD passes but instead of working with him when he struggled, the swept him to the side an elected to go with Ray when he was not ready to play. SM's belief in Ray defies what he really is at this point of his career - an aging QB who is no longer elite and should be a veteran back-up. I'm actually not surprised in Harris' decision at all as the only way they would have been able to keep him was to offer big money and the guarantee to start. In hindsight, the future of this club could now hinge on that fateful decision to not go in that direction.

[Ron]

Some people seem to think the new ownership is in for the long term. I want to believe that too. However if the attendance stays where it is and does not improve how long will they actually stay in? Having said that there is plenty they can do to create interest. First being dedicate air time on their stations to discussing Argo Football consistently and with high production value. Every game needs to be an event like 1991 to draw fans back in.

They have a venue that needs dates filled. They have a product (Argos) that fills 10-11 dates a year in the facility. Plus GC's and possibly Vanier Cups. It's worth it to them.

But I'd also say it's safe to say that 5 years down the line we won't see 12K games. If anything this game is the best thing to happen since it teaches the new owners they have work to do and can't relax and expect it to be easy (Though I expect they know that as they do market research.)

[Ron]

I think you've identified the real reason he chose to leave - the terrible decision to sit him and go with a clearly still recovery Ray in the ESF last year which I agree was a slap in his face..

or the team already knew he wasn't coming back and saw no reason to give him a shot after a few crap games.

And if we go by slaps ... it's not a slap to have the starter return and take his spot. The slap was having plays for McPherson and not him.

[marcwagz]

This is the trend that I see slowly happening. Young people have different tastes, and "old people" are dying-off. I would hate to see it, but the CFL could go t*** up in the next decade or so. I'm into classic cars, and the same thing is happening in that hobby.
Saskatchewan is the only province that has only one pro team, that's why their fan base is strong (for now).
I'm a young adult, not a teen a bit older than that.
When I tell people my age I'm a fan of the leafs or raptors they are like "Oh cool me too!"
When I say I am the fan of the Argos they treat it like its some weird kind of character quirk.
Then they try to talk about the Jays and I ask them how they can enjoy sitting around waiting for someone to hit a ball with a stick from like 500 feet away.

Not sure why its a strange thing to enjoy a football game.

[Stevoman]

I think you've identified the real reason he chose to leave - the terrible decision to sit him and go with a clearly still recovery Ray in the ESF last year which I agree was a slap in his face. He was tremendous early on and lead the league in TD passes but instead of working with him when he struggled, the swept him to the side an elected to go with Ray when he was not ready to play. SM's belief in Ray defies what he really is at this point of his career - an aging QB who is no longer elite and should be a veteran back-up. I'm actually not surprised in Harris' decision at all as the only way they would have been able to keep him was to offer big money and the guarantee to start. In hindsight, the future of this club could now hinge on that fateful decision to not go in that direction.

All of last year I was one of the posters who stated that the Argos should go with Harris instead of Ray (an Aaron Rogers instead of Favre type of thing) but I completely understand why they went with Ray and thought that the contracts that they were offering both (performance based) were both smart and fair. Yes, it sucks that Harris and Collaros have moved on, but it is also encouraging that Milanovich's system has produced two good quarterbacks. Ray can still get the job done (although less flashy than we'd all like) and we have two other quarterbacks in our system that might also be able to produce at a high level when it is time for Ray to finally retire (my money is currently on Fajardo and found it interesting that they used him on the punting scheme last night).

[marcwagz]

No, Argos All Access is no longer on air. Maybe it's ratings weren't very good. Everyone complains when it's gone but did they actually tune in? (I'm not not targeting you Tom, just saying in general)

thats ridiculous.
They have a half hour show dedicated to the Toronto Rock during the Lacrosse season, the ratings can't be good for that.

[1argoholic]

Mr New Owner better get his staff together and start coming up with other plans to get asses in the seats. Inflated Grey Cup ticket prices aren't going to cut the mustard.

Time to start sponsoring double blue Argo diapers for maternity wards across the GTA. Hook em when their young. Perhaps baby Argo booties. If this doesn't work we can all say the idea was full of crap. haha! I kill me!!!!

[ArgoZ]

I no longer listen to TSN 1050, does Hogan have his Argo show on Wednesday?
You would have thought that ownership means something and even though we are in a wannabe city here, how there would be reasonable CFL/Argos coverage.
The last time I listened and what some posters keep saying on various boards there is little to nothing?
TSN 1050 is Fan 590 light.
Again the former is part of the problem.

Hogan hosts the mid day show. He had a lots of CFL/Argos talk today with Justin Hickman offering insight on quite a few topics.
Lansberg/Taylor replacement, on the morning show talked extensively about the Argos on and off field situations today. And of course Marsh and Milton talked CFL on 1150 for the drive home. While the CFL is far down the pecking order, there is more talk than you give credit for, albeit not on 590 though. FYI, I work in the construction trade and sometimes listen to the radio all day, like today from 5am to 7pm!

[Neely2005]

Not enough, obviously.

So you don't know?

[Argo57]

or the team already knew he wasn't coming back and saw no reason to give him a shot after a few crap games.

And if we go by slaps ... it's not a slap to have the starter return and take his spot. The slap was having plays for McPherson and not him.

Sure, if Ray was 100% healthy for that ESF game there might be some merit to that, but he was admittedly rusty and nowhere near 100% healthy which I'm sure told Harris all he needed to know.

[KCargosfan]

I agree with Don Argo; Ottawa's speedy receivers help make that offense work. There were a lot of screens and swing passes last night, and the difference was Ottawa's receivers got the necessary blocks and runs/yac yards to make it work.

Our DBs playing 10-15 yards off the line of scrimmage also contributes to this. Honestly, football does not have to be a complicated game. When a DB is 12 yards away from that receiver, throw it to him, and you are going to pick up decent yardage every time.

[Argo57]

Our DBs playing 10-15 yards off the line of scrimmage also contributes to this. Honestly, football does not have to be a complicated game. When a DB is 12 yards away from that receiver, throw it to him, and you are going to pick up decent yardage every time.

The cushion Jefferson was giving the receivers last night was ridiculous.

[AngeloV]

thats ridiculous.
They have a half hour show dedicated to the Toronto Rock during the Lacrosse season, the ratings can't be good for that.

Not 100% sure, but I don't think they use TSN radio personalities to host that show. Could it possibly be paid programming by the Rock? Sort of an informercial?

[marcwagz]

Not 100% sure, but I don't think they use TSN radio personalities to host that show. Could it possibly be paid programming by the Rock? Sort of an informercial?
hmm im not sure.
they always do an interview with the coach and some players and talk about the weeks game.
its late at night but still a late at night argos show would be better than nothing.

[ArgoGabe22]

The cushion Jefferson was giving the receivers last night was ridiculous.

Maybe Stubler's thinking was to give up the short pass, thinking it could be stopped once caught rather than get beat deep?

[Neely2005]

I think you've identified the real reason he chose to leave - the terrible decision to sit him and go with a clearly still recovery Ray in the ESF last year which I agree was a slap in his face. He was tremendous early on and lead the league in TD passes but instead of working with him when he struggled, the swept him to the side an elected to go with Ray when he was not ready to play. SM's belief in Ray defies what he really is at this point of his career - an aging QB who is no longer elite and should be a veteran back-up. I'm actually not surprised in Harris' decision at all as the only way they would have been able to keep him was to offer big money and the guarantee to start. In hindsight, the future of this club could now hinge on that fateful decision to not go in that direction.

So why did he sign in Ottawa where they outright told him that he wouldn't be starting this season?

[Stevoman]

So why did he sign in Ottawa where they outright told him that he wouldn't be starting this season?

I think it was because he was told that 2017 would be his year. The Argos made no such promise.

[ArgoFan1]

I believe the way he was treated toward the end of last season would be enough for him to leave. He was left on the sideline in the playoff game when Ray was struggling. Right then and there, I knew he would leave, unless Ricky suddenly retired.

[R.J]

I think it was because he was told that 2017 would be his year. The Argos made no such promise.
Yup

I believe the way he was treated toward the end of last season would be enough for him to leave. He was left on the sideline in the playoff game when Ray was struggling. Right then and there, I knew he would leave, unless Ricky suddenly retired.
I agree. Milanovich made it clear who his choice was going forward. I honestly think it was the last game of the season that Harris knew the choice was made. It's one thing to pull your starter when he's not performing well, but Milanovich gave Ray the reins at the end of the season to prepare him for the playoffs (admitted it too).

[ArgoRavi]

Terrible decision. The Redblacks scoring drive in the first 90 seconds of the 3rd quarter turned out to be the huge momentum shift.

Then the Argos came back with a 7 minute + TD drive to end the 3rd quarter which shifted momentum back to them. If you think there will be a good wind at your back in the 4th quarter, you need to take that wind and that is the decision that the Argos' coaches made (and just about any other coach in the league would do the same).

[Rich]

I believe the way he was treated toward the end of last season would be enough for him to leave. He was left on the sideline in the playoff game when Ray was struggling. Right then and there, I knew he would leave, unless Ricky suddenly retired.

I guess you're right. Maybe it wasn't an insufficient Argos offer that made Harris ultimately decide to leave, maybe it was this.

But whether it was the contract or whether it was the lack of respect -- either way, it amounted to the club telling Harris they weren't all that interested in him as the team's starter, either now or in the future. Maybe they placed more importance on his last 4 games in 2015 as opposed to his first 12, just like all the experts around here did.

[Rich]

Then the Argos came back with a 7 minute + TD drive to end the 3rd quarter which shifted momentum back to them. If you think there will be a good wind at your back in the 4th quarter, you need to take that wind and that is the decision that the Argos' coaches made (and just about any other coach in the league would do the same).


The wind wasn't really that significant last night. I was watching the goalpost wind markers and after the first quarter, when it was steadily from the south, it became swirling and erratic, certainly not a significant advantage for either side in the 4th. It wasn't worth giving up the opening return in the second half for.

[ArgoGabe22]

The wind wasn't really that significant last night. I was watching the goalpost wind markers and after the first quarter, when it was steadily from the south, it became swirling and erratic, certainly not a significant advantage for either side in the 4th. It wasn't worth giving up the opening return in the second half for.

Wind wasn't bad last night in Winnipeg and the team who won the toss also deferred and took side in the 2nd half.

[Jon Gonzo]

Stubler and Milanovich aren't out there making tackles. We need to get sure handed tacklers on the field. Too many missed tackles. I think that Ellingson is a very good receiver but he should never be burning a good D Backfield for all that YAC

[mchesher03]

Wind wasn't bad last night in Winnipeg and the team who won the toss also deferred and took side in the 2nd half.

the decision itself - i have little problem with. However, it did not work out in the argos favour given ottawa scored a major on their first possession of the 2nd half. If that had turned out differently, many (including myself) would be happy with Scott's call here.

[AngeloV]

The wind wasn't really that significant last night. I was watching the goalpost wind markers and after the first quarter, when it was steadily from the south, it became swirling and erratic, certainly not a significant advantage for either side in the 4th. It wasn't worth giving up the opening return in the second half for.

You couldn't tell from the seats, but I think it was pretty good on the field. The difference in depth on kickoffs towards the north end were going into the endzone and towards the south to the 20. Only problem was that the wind died down in the fourth.

[argolio]

I think it was good coaching by Ottawa, I watched Williams through the binoculars on a lot of plays and it seemed they were using him as a decoy which allowed the other receivers to get open. He gets a lot of yardage out of them little curl patterns.
Also a big factor was the Ottawa ability to make tackles, not many times that the Argo RB or receivers were going to break tackles.Maybe the defensive game plan overcompensated trying to account for Williams.

To me, the missed tackles were the difference in the game. We win if we tackle well, and even if we tackled a bit better it probably would have gone down to the final possession.

Gurley being injured didn't help either.

[MEEZY]

I don't know if its been mentioned (and it likely has) but perhaps, at least in part, the attendance issues result from the weekday games? When people have to work the next day, they're probably more likely to stay at home. It certainly doesn't help to have so many weekday games.

[PullTogether73]

I don't know if its been mentioned (and it likely has) but perhaps, at least in part, the attendance issues result from the weekday games? When people have to work the next day, they're probably more likely to stay at home. It certainly doesn't help to have so many weekday games.

It has been mentioned - and discounted.

Leafs, Raptors, Blue Jays all play weeknight games.
The games usually go as long as a football game.
Their fans show up despite having to be at work the next day.
Difference?
Number of fans.

[ArgoGabe22]

The Argos still had a chance to tie but many fans begun to leave to catch the 10:20 GO Train. That was frustrating to see but I get people have to go to work in the morning.

[Argo57]

I believe the way he was treated toward the end of last season would be enough for him to leave. He was left on the sideline in the playoff game when Ray was struggling. Right then and there, I knew he would leave, unless Ricky suddenly retired.

100% correct!!

[Neely2005]

It has been mentioned - and discounted.

Leafs, Raptors, Blue Jays all play weeknight games.
The games usually go as long as a football game.
Their fans show up despite having to be at work the next day.
Difference?
Number of fans.

I think that the Lakeshore Blvd closure and Indy detours were bigger issues than the Wednesday night.

[Argo]

I think that the Lakeshore Blvd closure and Indy detours were bigger issues than the Wednesday night.

And the humidex, most likely.

[Double Dare]

They are laughing at this thread on the Red Crotch Boys forum.

[Argo57]

They are laughing at this thread on the Red Crotch Boys forum.

And who gives a shit what they are laughing at??

[Neely2005]

They are laughing at this thread on the Red Crotch Boys forum.

They're laughing at our GDT? Oh well I laugh at their TV Ratings and their on field performance.

[KCargosfan]

Maybe Stubler's thinking was to give up the short pass, thinking it could be stopped once caught rather than get beat deep?

The error with that thinking is they were getting at least 8 yards every time on the short pass.

My college team, K-State, used to play this way all the time and it was aggravating as heck to see teams just march down the field picking up 7-12 yards a pass because our DBs were so far off the line of scrimmage.

[Argo]

The error with that thinking is they were getting at least 8 yards every time on the short pass.

My college team, K-State, used to play this way all the time and it was aggravating as heck to see teams just march down the field picking up 7-12 yards a pass because our DBs were so far off the line of scrimmage.

Quite apart from any offensive variation, how did the Argos' D play so well against BC, and then immediately blow rancid chunks vs the Two-Tones?

[1argoholic]

Seems like we better get used to this type of up and down from week to week crap with all CFL teams. TOO MUCH PLAYER AND COACHING TURN OVER!!!!

This team is no different then any Barker and Milanovich Argo team. When you have so many new faces from year to year and guys learning on the fly this is what you get. I can't imagine just getting off a plane in TO and learning a new game, new country, finding housing, finding your way around and having to play professional football at a high level. Having to travel to place like Saskatchewan, like these US rookies have ever heard of this place.
I think we should be 8-10, 9-9 and if everything goes our way from here out 10-8. Depends how many times do we play Hamilton this year as they have our number. Obviously we have no home field advantage and it seems like it doesn't matter around the league this year.

I think CFL football as we used to know it is long gone. Teams have trouble keeping players more then two years now so Edmonton's record five straight Grey Cup titles will never be broken.

[AngeloV]

Seems like we better get used to this type of up and down from week to week crap with all CFL teams. TOO MUCH PLAYER AND COACHING TURN OVER!!!!

This team is no different then any Barker and Milanovich Argo team. When you have so many new faces from year to year and guys learning on the fly this is what you get. I can't imagine just getting off a plane in TO and learning a new game, new country, finding housing, finding your way around and having to play professional football at a high level. Having to travel to place like Saskatchewan, like these US rookies have ever heard of this place.
I think we should be 8-10, 9-9 and if everything goes our way from here out 10-8. Depends how many times do we play Hamilton this year as they have our number. Obviously we have no home field advantage and it seems like it doesn't matter around the league this year.

I think CFL football as we used to know it is long gone. Teams have trouble keeping players more then two years now so Edmonton's record five straight Grey Cup titles will never be broken.

You can't expect the teams to be able to keep all their top players in a salary cap league. Personally, I have no problem with player turnover. These guys aren't getting rich in this league, so good on them to have the opportunity to make as much as possible. If it means changing teams so be it. It sure beats the days when players were taken advantage of by their teams.

[gilthethrill]

You can't expect the teams to be able to keep all their top players in a salary cap league. Personally, I have no problem with player turnover. These guys aren't getting rich in this league, so good on them to have the opportunity to make as much as possible. If it means changing teams so be it. It sure beats the days when players were taken advantage of by their teams.

In addition to that, how many Argo assistant coaches left to get a promotion from another team? That is a good indication that the coaches the Argos bring into the league are good.

[KCargosfan]

You can't expect the teams to be able to keep all their top players in a salary cap league. Personally, I have no problem with player turnover. These guys aren't getting rich in this league, so good on them to have the opportunity to make as much as possible. If it means changing teams so be it. It sure beats the days when players were taken advantage of by their teams.

Agreed. If players are lucky, their career lasts more than 3 years. Most don't get a second contract where they can get paid six figures. Heck, Jovon Johnson is in his 10th year in the league and reports said he is making $90K.

If the players change teams every year so they can make more cash, more power to them.

[1argoholic]

I would be too loyal to my team. I'd take a cut in pay to stay with the team that drafted me even if it was the Cats. I've never been about money though.

[AngeloV]

I would be too loyal to my team. I'd take a cut in pay to stay with the team that drafted me even if it was the Cats. I've never been about money though.

Easy to say on the forum. If you had the ability to make more, you likely would go to the highest bidder. You would also likely have pressure from the PA to do so. If a good player takes a discount, then all players are expected to.

[1argoholic]

Right now I'd go to the highest bidder as a young 53 year old 5' 9" 190lb db who can run faster then an O linemen. Hell I could even beat some D linemen with the proper footwear. haha.

[doubleblue]

Right now I'd go to the highest bidder as a young 53 year old 5' 9" 190lb db who can run faster then an O linemen. Hell I could even beat some D linemen with the proper footwear. haha.

I know I always ran faster when I had the ball and the D Linemen were chasing me with evil intent. lol

[Double Dare]

Right now I'd go to the highest bidder as a young 53 year old 5' 9" 190lb db who can run faster then an O linemen. Hell I could even beat some D linemen with the proper footwear. haha. ... and you don't need a helmet.

[Argo57]

Right now I'd go to the highest bidder as a young 53 year old 5' 9" 190lb db who can run faster then an O linemen. Hell I could even beat some D linemen with the proper footwear. haha.

That is an insult to all O-Linemen!!

[Argo]

Easy to say on the forum. If you had the ability to make more, you likely would go to the highest bidder. You would also likely have pressure from the PA to do so. If a good player takes a discount, then all players are expected to.

"Not being about money" in the context of the CFL means poverty.

[Will]

They're laughing at our GDT? Oh well I laugh at their TV Ratings and their on field performance.

They were laughing at the "reasonable attendance" thread.

[argolio]

They don't have anything to laugh at considering how they lost their last game.

[Neely2005]

They don't have anything to laugh at considering how they lost their last game.

No idea what happened since I'm not interested in the Minor League Soccer but considering that they've never won a playoff game they should probably STFU.

[ArgoRavi]

No idea what happened since I'm not interested in the Minor League Soccer but considering that they've never won a playoff game they should probably STFU.

They had a two-man advantage for much of the second half, if I am not mistaken, against San Jose and still lost the game.

[Argo]

They had a two-man advantage for much of the second half, if I am not mistaken, against San Jose and still lost the game.

In absolute contrast, Team Canada '72 had a two-man disadvantage against its monumental opponent and still won the most important game ever played in our country's sport history.
http://1972summitseries.com/game8recap.html

[Neely2005]

They had a two-man advantage for much of the second half, if I am not mistaken, against San Jose and still lost the game.

Lol, now that's funny! Luckily for them no one watches their games.