Week 4: BC Lions @ Saskatchewan Roughriders, July 16 Game Thread

[Will]

Third times a charm for Chris Jones?

[AngeloV]

I'm calling for a Riders victory. I am very impressed by some of the talent Jones has brought in. It will take them time to gel, but they are FAST. Ricky Collins Jr. is going to be a major player.

[PullTogether73]

If the Riders' D can shut down the Lions offence as did the Argonauts D, this is a winnable game for the Green Ones.
Is Jennings or Lulay starting?

Of course, getting a yard here and there on third down will help.:p

[Argo]

I'm calling for a Riders victory. I am very impressed by some of the talent Jones has brought in. It will take them time to gel, but they are FAST. Ricky Collins Jr. is going to be a major player.

The Riders aren't too shabby in spite of their early-season record. I believe that BC is the better team, though, and should prevail in a competitive game.

[AngeloV]

The Riders aren't too shabby in spite of their early-season record. I believe that BC is the better team, though, and should prevail in a competitive game.

Yeah, it should be a good game. I may not love him, but Chris Jones is damn good at what he does.

[ArgoGabe22]

Riders won the toss and deferred. 3rd team to do so this week.

[Argo]

May the best team win and may CFL officiating be barely visible.

[PullTogether73]

Mitchell Gale in for the (once again) injured Darian Durant.

Gale: 7/8, 108 yards, 1 touchdown at halftime.

Toronto Argonauts: quarterback factory.:D

[OV Argo]

Such a drag to see Durant go out with injury again - the league just does not need this, but part of the game I guess; Gale looking pretty decent in relief.

In terms of tracking Canadian/NI talent playing in the league: don't see the Riders "starting" 7 NIs? - not by the TV graphic of starters for this game (though that is often incorrect) - Riders have only 2 starting NI O-linemen + 2 starting NI receivers (Bagg & Chambers); and then on D - Capiciotti at DE (though I'm sure he has been out some = i.e. replaced by an import), and rookie safety Francis - though I did see ex-Argo Shane Herbert make a couple of plays on D - not sure if he was in for Francis? Wondering if the 7 NI "starters" by ratio requirements is more a loose rule application? And how would a violation of the rule be detected ? - do the refs keep track?; would it take a complaint by the opposing team? Don't see how/ any way the Riders are "starting" 7 NIs this game - but maybe by lots of creative substituting?

[ArgoGabe22]

Barker doesn't know what he's doing. How can a GM possibly give away 3 franchise QBs?

[gilthethrill]

Barker doesn't know what he's doing. How can a GM possibly give away 3 franchise QBs?

Makes me optimistic about what Logan Kilgore can do when he is called upon.....off topic, did anyone see the attendance of the White Caps game that came on after the Lions game? MLS soccer appears to be way more popular than the CFL in Vancouver.

[ArgoRavi]

Such a drag to see Durant go out with injury again - the league just does not need this, but part of the game I guess; Gale looking pretty decent in relief.

In terms of tracking Canadian/NI talent playing in the league: don't see the Riders "starting" 7 NIs? - not by the TV graphic of starters for this game (though that is often incorrect) - Riders have only 2 starting NI O-linemen + 2 starting NI receivers (Bagg & Chambers); and then on D - Capiciotti at DE (though I'm sure he has been out some = i.e. replaced by an import), and rookie safety Francis - though I did see ex-Argo Shane Herbert make a couple of plays on D - not sure if he was in for Francis? Wondering if the 7 NI "starters" by ratio requirements is more a loose rule application? And how would a violation of the rule be detected ? - do the refs keep track?; would it take a complaint by the opposing team? Don't see how/ any way the Riders are "starting" 7 NIs this game - but maybe by lots of creative substituting?

It isn't a "loose rule". If it were, Walters and Campbell never would have seen the field so much tonight.

[Double Dare]

Mitchell Gale in for the (once again) injured Darian Durant.

Gale: 7/8, 108 yards, 1 touchdown at halftime.

Toronto Argonauts: quarterback factory. ... and then what happened in the second half?

[AngeloV]

Makes me optimistic about what Logan Kilgore can do when he is called upon.....off topic, did anyone see the attendance of the White Caps game that came on after the Lions game? MLS soccer appears to be way more popular than the CFL in Vancouver.

Whitecaps have always been popular out there. Even before they joined the MLS the Whitecaps drew well at Swangard stadium while playing in the CSL. THAT is where all national team games should be played.

[OV Argo]

It isn't a "loose rule". If it were, Walters and Campbell never would have seen the field so much tonight.


Walters was not the starter, and only went in a bit for Curtis Steele mid game; Campbell only saw the field later in the game when one of their starting corners got hurt.

Just wondering who their 7 "national" "starters" were Ravi - maybe you know? 2 O-linemen + 2 receivers + Capiciotti + a safety (rookie Francis or maybe Herbert some) = only adds up to 6. Pretty sure there were (not counting the QB) 17 imports, combined, on the field on O & D early in the game, and this should not be possible by the ratio, unless you are using DIs as starters ?

[Ron]

... and then what happened in the second half?

He realized he was in Riderville and had to suck like the rest of them.

[AngeloV]

Walters was not the starter, and only went in a bit for Curtis Steele mid game; Campbell only saw the field later in the game when one of their starting corners got hurt.

Just wondering who their 7 "national" "starters" were Ravi - maybe you know? 2 O-linemen + 2 receivers + Capiciotti + a safety (rookie Francis or maybe Herbert some) = only adds up to 6. Pretty sure there were (not counting the QB) 17 imports, combined, on the field on O & D early in the game, and this should not be possible by the ratio, unless you are using DIs as starters ?

It's a good question OV. Even the depth chart for the game on their website only shows 6 NI starters. This is something that needs to be answered, because it isn't right.

[Double Dare]

He realized he was in Riderville and had to suck like the rest of them. Ha, ha. He has to get used Pilsner, and playing in wheat fields.

[OV Argo]

It's a good question OV. Even the depth chart for the game on their website only shows 6 NI starters. This is something that needs to be answered, because it isn't right.

Yeah; even if they listed NI fullback Spencer Moore as a "starter", he would have to play, and be replaced by a NI receiver (say Demski) when they went to 5 pack; but this was not the case I saw at the beginning of the game - quite sure it was Steele at RB + 3 import receivers (Roosevelt, Chiles & Collins) + 3 import O-linemen; and on defence - the only NIs I saw playing regular were Capiciotti at DE, and a safety (rookie Francis at first, Herbert some; Newman later in the game) - meaning there were 10 imports manning the other D spots most of the time. That's 7 import starters on offence, plus 10 on defence = meaning there were only 6 NIs "starting" - far as I could see or tell.

Again - who with the CFL tracks this? - the refs during the game ?; league officials watching at the Command Centre ? I don't think anyone really does.

[KCargosfan]

It isn't a "loose rule". If it were, Walters and Campbell never would have seen the field so much tonight.

Campbell was simply awful in that game. He couldn't cover a bed with a sheet.

[KCargosfan]

Yeah; even if they listed NI fullback Spencer Moore as a "starter", he would have to play, and be replaced by a NI receiver (say Demski) when they went to 5 pack; but this was not the case I saw at the beginning of the game - quite sure it was Steele at RB + 3 import receivers (Roosevelt, Chiles & Collins) + 3 import O-linemen; and on defence - the only NIs I saw playing regular were Capiciotti at DE, and a safety (rookie Francis at first, Herbert some; Newman later in the game) - meaning there were 10 imports manning the other D spots most of the time. That's 7 import starters on offence, plus 10 on defence = meaning there were only 6 NIs "starting" - far as I could see or tell.

Again - who with the CFL tracks this? - the refs during the game ?; league officials watching at the Command Centre ? I don't think anyone really does.

OVA, you need to send this to a CFL journalist/media outlet of your choice to have them look into this. There has to be some accountability.

[AngeloV]

OVA, you need to send this to a CFL journalist/media outlet of your choice to have them look into this. There has to be some accountability.

I just tweeted Glen Johnson on this. Waiting for the spin he puts on it. Tried to message him direct so I can put more than 150 characters, but I am not able to do so, and neither the CFL site, nor the Officials site has emails listed.

[OV Argo]

OVA, you need to send this to a CFL journalist/media outlet of your choice to have them look into this. There has to be some accountability.


Maybe - I doubt anybody really cares though.


IF there was a procedure in place to monitor this - like say having a starting line-up card, with the DIs listed - it would probably be very clear; but my guess is there is no such procedure, and "starters" is just a "guideline", and if a CFL coaching staff can get away with improper subbing (i.e. - that would be DIs on the field who are not replacing another import), then they will. I was pretty sure the Stamps got away with it a few seasons back. Not 100% sure though - and again, perhaps there was some creative subbing on both O & D so a 7th NI was on the field at all times ?

[AngeloV]

No response from Glen Johnson, but I got this from Mark Fulton, who I respect. I believe that they had 3 NI's on D. When McKinley was in at tackle, Herbert replaced an international DB. When Mrabure was in at DT, then Herbert would come out.

As far as a procedure, I've been assured there is one. I also think if they pulled a fast one re: the ratio, Wally would have lost it.

[OV Argo]

No response from Glen Johnson, but I got this from Mark Fulton, who I respect. I believe that they had 3 NI's on D. When McKinley was in at tackle, Herbert replaced an international DB. When Mrabure was in at DT, then Herbert would come out.

As far as a procedure, I've been assured there is one. I also think if they pulled a fast one re: the ratio, Wally would have lost it.


That explanation would make sense, IF that type of subbing was going on- and I did see Marube and Hebert play a bit of D; I don't really believe it was consistent though, but I could be wrong. Game film would provide evidence - and if the starters that are shown on the depth chart or the TV graphic at the start of the game are correct - they were getting away with it - i.e. (outside of the QB) - 7 imports on the field on offence, and then 10 on defence.

[OV Argo]

Not that I want to harp on, or go on about this forever AV ;o) - but last night's Rider/BC game is on YouTube; and at the start of the game, the Riders are on D - there is a pulled back shot of the D, plus a delay of game penalty = you can see all the D players - it is McKinley & Irving at DT, and I see no sign or Marube (#98) or Herbert (#33) on the field. Maybe there is some other explanation that works though ?

[AngeloV]

Not that I want to harp on, or go on about this forever AV ;o) - but last night's Rider/BC game is on YouTube; and at the start of the game, the Riders are on D - there is a pulled back shot of the D, plus a delay of game penalty = you can see all the D players - it is McKinley & Irving at DT, and I see no sign or Marube (#98) or Herbert (#33) on the field. Maybe there is some other explanation that works though ?

Your guess is as good as mine. If they did get away with it, hopefully my tweet to Glen Johnson will make officiating crews and supervisors more aware of this going forward.

[OV Argo]

Your guess is as good as mine. If they did get away with it, hopefully my tweet to Glen Johnson will make officiating crews and supervisors more aware of this going forward.


Yeah - not sure what the consequence or penalty would be though? And you said Wally would surely be pi$$ed-off if they were getting away with it? IF there was clear evidence of it you'd think BC would have complained - but who knows?

Didn't mean to start some sort of CFL version of a "ratio problem" Watergate on this ;o) There would probably be some sort of lynch-mob formed over at Riderfans to find out who was responsible for narc-ing on ego-Jones over this minor (right?) issue ;o) Be interesting to hear if you get any sort of reasonable explanation from Glen Johnson.

[ArgoRavi]

Walters was not the starter, and only went in a bit for Curtis Steele mid game; Campbell only saw the field later in the game when one of their starting corners got hurt.

Just wondering who their 7 "national" "starters" were Ravi - maybe you know? 2 O-linemen + 2 receivers + Capiciotti + a safety (rookie Francis or maybe Herbert some) = only adds up to 6. Pretty sure there were (not counting the QB) 17 imports, combined, on the field on O & D early in the game, and this should not be possible by the ratio, unless you are using DIs as starters ?

I asked some of the folks covering the Riders on Twitter who that 7th starting National was, OV. One of them - Murray McCormick - believed that Nik Demski had started in place of Ricky Collins.

BTW, Walters only got into the game at tailback after Chambers went down with an injury. They lost one starting Canadian in Chambers so Walters had to be put in for Steele. Eventually Steele did come back in and it seemed that is when National Trevaughn Campbell got into the game at DB.

[KCargosfan]

Your guess is as good as mine. If they did get away with it, hopefully my tweet to Glen Johnson will make officiating crews and supervisors more aware of this going forward.

Agreed. I know people aren't fans of his on here, but maybe if someone brought this to the attention of Justin Dunk, he might delve into it as well. As a former Canadian CIS football player, you would think if the Riders were breaking the rules on the ratio, he would bring it to everyone's attention.

[1argoholic]

Digging deep to get to the root of this story. I like it.

[OV Argo]

I asked some of the folks covering the Riders on Twitter who that 7th starting National was, OV. One of them - Murray McCormick - believed that Nik Demski had started in place of Ricky Collins.

BTW, Walters only got into the game at tailback after Chambers went down with an injury. They lost one starting Canadian in Chambers so Walters had to be put in for Steele. Eventually Steele did come back in and it seemed that is when National Trevaughn Campbell got into the game at DB.



I believe you may be right on that Ravi - in watching more of the game film, seems Demski was in a lot at WR - instead of Chiles; so, unless the 3 import receivers (Roosevelt, Collins & Chiles - who was probably a DI) + Steele at RB, were all in the game at the same time - they probably were playing by the ratio rules; I did not watch enough of the replay to tell if that scenario did happen at all.