Barker and Milanovich need to be fired!!!!!!!!!!

[argotom]

After the first game fiasco and now yesterday's defeat, there is no question most people here and on the other CFL site are of the same mind as yours truly when I was one of very few that came out and questioned the decision of letting Zach go and now Harris.
It is more than clear how these two crucial decisions have/will put the franchise back years in the most crucial position.
So when it's evident there is unbelievable work to be done to bring back the fans, we cannot afford to have a lackluster offensive product on the field.
Even though both Barker and Milanovich signed contract extensions with the new ownership, someone has to be responsible for the curious support of an aging QB whose best before date has passed.

[marcwagz]

when Collaros comes back we should try to get Masoli. Kid is a starter.

[argotom]

when Collaros comes back we should try to get Masoli. Kid is a starter.

He is not coming back as having signed a rich contract extension.

[AngeloV]

After the first game fiasco and now yesterday's defeat, there is no question most people here and on the other CFL site are of the same mind as yours truly when I was one of very few that came out and questioned the decision of letting Zach go and now Harris.
It is more than clear how these two crucial decisions have/will put the franchise back years in the most crucial position.
So when it's evident there is unbelievable work to be done to bring back the fans, we cannot afford to have a lackluster offensive product on the field.
Even though both Barker and Milanovich signed contract extensions with the new ownership, someone has to be responsible for the curious support of an aging QB whose best before date has passed.

Ahhhh..Nothing like a 2-2 start to bring to us the end of the world as we know it.

when Collaros comes back we should try to get Masoli. Kid is a starter.

I think he committed more turnovers last week than Ray does in a year.


He is not coming back as having signed a rich contract extension.

I think he meant the Argos should go for Masoli when Collaros returns from injury.

[ArgoGabe22]

Barker stole Ray, Barker stole Foley, Barker stole Lemon (Shawn that is), found the Big 3 plus other potential gems like Spencer and Shaw. Barker also brought in Collaros and Harris into the league. Barker's job is safe. Quite the improvement from where we were when Barker inherited the team.

Same thing with Milanovich. He's not perfect but is the best coach available. Having a consistent coaching staff is crucial. Firing him now is going in the wrong direction.

For anyone to lose their job just because they stuck with Ray is ludicrous.

[Argo57]

After the first game fiasco and now yesterday's defeat, there is no question most people here and on the other CFL site are of the same mind as yours truly when I was one of very few that came out and questioned the decision of letting Zach go and now Harris.
It is more than clear how these two crucial decisions have/will put the franchise back years in the most crucial position.
So when it's evident there is unbelievable work to be done to bring back the fans, we cannot afford to have a lackluster offensive product on the field.
Even though both Barker and Milanovich signed contract extensions with the new ownership, someone has to be responsible for the curious support of an aging QB whose best before date has passed.

Seeing 2 extremely promising young QB talents leave within a couple of years frustrates the shit out of me but I wouldn't think of firing either the Coach or GM.
Both have managed to keep a competitive product on the field under more that shitty circumstances since the 2012 Grey Cup and should be commended as such.
Another thing to consider, who exactly is available in either role that is superior to Milanovich and Barker.....probably no one.
Firing either at this point would be short sighted and ill advised IMO.
If the Argonauts end up tanking this season then that would be a different but right now they are 2-2 and need time to gel with all of the new players and coaches.

[argotom]

Barker stole Ray, Barker stole Foley, Barker stole Lemon (Shawn that is), found the Big 3 plus other potential gems like Spencer and Shaw. Barker also brought in Collaros and Harris into the league. Barker's job is safe. Quite the improvement from where we were when Barker inherited the team.

Same thing with Milanovich. He's not perfect but is the best coach available. Having a consistent coaching staff is crucial. Firing him now is going in the wrong direction.

For anyone to lose their job just because they stuck with Ray is ludicrous.


Yes Barker and the scouting staff have brought in the two blue chip QB's, however to suggest that it is ludicrous at the eventual decisions you obviously miss the point.
Personnel decisions is how management is graded.
Further, in evaluating the HC on not only the wins and losses it also should factor the personnel moves such as starting an injured QB in the playoffs, therefore questioning his ability to lead the team and putting the players in the best position to win.

[gilthethrill]

Honestly AT...I don't know where to begin....but the answer to both questions is NO!

[ArgoGabe22]

Yes Barker and the scouting staff have brought in the two blue chip QB's, however to suggest that it is ludicrous at the eventual decisions you obviously miss the point.
Personnel decisions is how management is graded.
Further, in evaluating the HC on not only the wins and losses it also should factor the personnel moves such as starting an injured QB in the playoffs, therefore questioning his ability to lead the team and putting the players in the best position to win.

If Barker brought in 3 great QBs to Toronto, who says he can't do it again?

Coaches trust their gut sometimes and take chances. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Getting fired for making one wrong decision (was it even wrong?) isn't enough to justify it. Firing Barker and/or Milanovich will set the franchise back even more than it did with the decision to stick with Ray. I'm sure the Argos are prepared for life after Ray, whether it's clear to us or not.

[Wobbler]

Weren't we one quarter away from going to 3-1? Come on, AT. Save some hysteria for when we run into real problems.

[ArgoZ]

Wow, shades of the 5th quarter call in show. Fire everyone after a loss! I say we start with AT's ticket rep first, then work our way up from there.

Would Harris and/or Collaros even be in the CFL if it was not for Barker and/or the Argos? Hard to know either way, but statistically, the chances would be slim. I think if you asked each player about the GM that brought them up here, they would have nothing but great things to say about a man that enabled them to continue making a good living at playing football.

[argotom]

Like the post says, do we need to start the discussion?
So far most have said no, which is fine.
Similarly to say no it's ludicrous, for me anyway it's like burying your head in the sand or having blinders on.
Especially with the state of the attendance at the stadium and the likelihood how the game on Monday the 25th against the traditionally poor drawing Als looks like it will bring another poor gathering.
Therefore the team on the field must be exciting on the O side.

[Wobbler]

No, it's ludicrous. Seriously.

Yes, our coaching can be criticized, but how could it possibly make sense to even discuss firing our coach mid-season without a plausible alternative in a year when we're hosting the GC? That discussion is ludicrous.... until the off-season.

As Gabe said, Barker has a pretty terrific track record. Firing him would be... ludicrous.

Sorry for being harsh - it's great that you care so much. As we were reminded yesterday, Argo-related passion is a pretty rare commodity.

[Neely2005]

No.

[KCargosfan]

Wow, shades of the 5th quarter call in show. Fire everyone after a loss! I say we start with AT's ticket rep first, then work our way up from there.

Would Harris and/or Collaros even be in the CFL if it was not for Barker and/or the Argos? Hard to know either way, but statistically, the chances would be slim. I think if you asked each player about the GM that brought them up here, they would have nothing but great things to say about a man that enabled them to continue making a good living at playing football.

That is pure gold right there. Mods, this has to be nominated for sentence/content/post of the year.

[KCargosfan]

ArgoTom, I'm curious as to who you would hire to replace Milanovich and Barker?

[paulwoods13]

This thread has as much credibility as "Say what? 15,000 etc"

[Double Dare]

Spock Milanovich should have been canned at the end of last season.

[Argo]

The inclusion of Barker's name in the title of this thread is ridiculous.

As I have said before, (a) the benching of Harris was a bad decision, and (b) I won't be sorry to see the end of the Milanovich era in Toronto.
However, the notion of firing him after a .500 start is unreasonable. If the team fails to win one playoff game, or even to reach the post-season, that's a different story. Meanwhile, let him do his job.

[argotom]

ArgoTom, I'm curious as to who you would hire to replace Milanovich and Barker?

For the GM if he can get out of his contract, Eric Tillman from the Cats.
He was here once before and is rated as one of the best with contacts in the US.
For HC see if Marc Trestman is interested?

[ArgoGabe22]

For the GM if he can get out of his contract, Eric Tillman from the Cats.
He was here once before and is rated as one of the best with contacts in the US.
For HC see if Marc Trestman is interested?

1) What's wrong with Barker's scouting? Who did Tillman bring in recently other than Simoni Lawrence that is impressive?
2) We'll have to wait til Trestman gets fired and is out of options. No way a coach will walk away from an NFL job.

[Jon Gonzo]

How soon we forget two very impressive road wins (; !

I am just glad that Management is not as impatient and fidgety as some people on sports fan message boards.

I find the notion preposterous and completely outlandish. The season is long and both Barker and Milanovich would be snapped up in a flash.

They *may* have erred in staying with the wrong QB, but Harris had a fantastic offer, and the jury is still out. Lots of Football yet. Keep a steely eye, and stay calm chicken little.

[argotom]

How soon we forget two very impressive road wins (; !

I am just glad that Management is not as impatient and fidgety as some people on sports fan message boards.

I find the notion preposterous and completely outlandish. The season is long and both Barker and Milanovich would be snapped up in a flash.

They *may* have erred in staying with the wrong QB, but Harris had a fantastic offer, and the jury is still out. Lots of Football yet. Keep a steely eye, and stay calm chicken little.

They may "have erred", wow these are huge franchise altering mistakes two years in a row.
If the year goes south just like Ricky Ray's performance, you do not think someone should pay for these "errors"?

[mchesher03]

hope someone's hit the bottle before this thread started - if this is a sober question - YIKES

the short answer is NO!

looking forward to seeing our offence when the receiving corps is in tact, we're a little thin right now.

no need to panic - 2-2 at the start of an 18 game schedule.

[R.J]

The conversation shouldn't start until the end of the season - if it should come up at all. Firing within seasons usually means you have to hire in house and IMO we have no one good enough for replacements.

Barker IMO has done a pretty good job as GM here. Look at our Canadian talent; IMO we have one of the best if not thee best. The only real place we've really struggled is the defensive backfield, and how much of that was/is due to having 4 DC's in 4 years ?

[AngeloV]

Wow, shades of the 5th quarter call in show. Fire everyone after a loss! I say we start with AT's ticket rep first, then work our way up from there.

.

LMFAO!! I think I just choked on my sandwich as I was reading that.

[AngeloV]

For the GM if he can get out of his contract, Eric Tillman from the Cats.
He was here once before and is rated as one of the best with contacts in the US.
For HC see if Marc Trestman is interested?

Well, I'm glad to see you are being reasonable here. I'm sure both those guys would jump at the opportunity. By the way, you do know that Milanovich runs Trestman's offence, right?

[argotom]

Well, I'm glad to see you are being reasonable here. I'm sure both those guys would jump at the opportunity. By the way, you do know that Milanovich runs Trestman's offence, right?

Maybe in name only.
No quick releases by the QB, that's not Trestman.

[AngeloV]

Maybe in name only.
No quick releases by the QB, that's not Trestman.

You're wrong. Calvillo made his career on those short passes in Trestman's system.

[paulwoods13]

Once and for all can we get this straight -- both Collaros and Harris left as free agents. That is their right -- the same right every player has when his contract expires. They were not let go by Barker. They chose to leave. And in at least one of the two cases, that was after receiving a generous offer from Barker. So stop blaming him for their departures. Unless you think they should have been signed to 10-yr contracts before ever playing a game. They just did what tons of other guys (including our "own" Josh Bourke) have done.

[R.J]

Once and for all can we get this straight -- both Collaros and Harris left as free agents. That is their right -- the same right every player has when his contract expires. They were not let go by Barker. They chose to leave. And in at least one of the two cases, that was after receiving a generous offer from Barker. So stop blaming him for their departures. Unless you think they should have been signed to 10-yr contracts before ever playing a game. They just did what tons of other guys (including our "own" Josh Bourke) have done.
They did release Collaros prior to free agency.

[Gill The Thrill]

Not totally sold on Barker being the best GM...he brings in the same type of receiver...apparently fast, big , but goes down with injuries...and doesn't fight for balls with moderate hands. Gurley is the best of them, but you have to admit if he was able to bring down everything he'd be earning a check in the NFL or would even be on a practice roster with his size. Kevin Elliot is always hurt and Hazelton has the best hands, but should stop his silly celebration after every 1st down. I like the Jim Brown approach of handing the ball off to the ref and not making it seem like it was your first catch and that you won't be making anymore.

Was reading posts criticizing the D in saying that they made Greg Ellingson look good on Wednesday night...perhaps it might be that he is very good. All he does is catch everything in sight and he does have the ability to make the first tackler miss with a quick subtle move. He's better than every receiver the Argos have. He may not beat them all in a 100 m race, but he's got better hands, is more durable and always makes big plays....That Ottawa receiving corp with Williams, Sinopoli and Jackson is better than ours...each of them has a special skill as a receiver that's different from the other guy. The Argos receivers are all cookie cutter guys...you play them tough and you limit the effectiveness of the entire unit.

Somebody said the Argos have the best Canadians....friggin laughable. Ottawa starts 3 Canadian linebackers and not one of them is a token player because of the ratio. They beat out the Americans that were available.

Who is the only unbeaten team in the CFL?...surprise...the Ottawa Redblacks at 3-0-1.

[R.J]

Not totally sold on Barker being the best GM
Who even said this ?


Somebody said the Argos have the best Canadians....friggin laughable. Ottawa starts 3 Canadian linebackers and not one of them is a token player because of the ratio. They beat out the Americans that were available.
That was me. So I've got to ask - Is Cory Greenwood not an elite linebacker ? Gabriel not an elite safety when healthy ?
We also have Miles, Waud, Bulcke, Bourke, Holmes, McEwen, Van Zeyl, Coombs, and Durie. Pretty good talent IMO and could all be starters on other teams.

[argolio]

They may "have erred", wow these are huge franchise altering mistakes two years in a row.
If the year goes south just like Ricky Ray's performance, you do not think someone should pay for these "errors"?Where was this huge altering? We've won about the same amount of games per season without Collaros as we did with him.

(Without Harris: to be determined.)

[argotom]

Once and for all can we get this straight -- both Collaros and Harris left as free agents. That is their right -- the same right every player has when his contract expires. They were not let go by Barker. They chose to leave. And in at least one of the two cases, that was after receiving a generous offer from Barker. So stop blaming him for their departures. Unless you think they should have been signed to 10-yr contracts before ever playing a game. They just did what tons of other guys (including our "own" Josh Bourke) have done.


They only left when Ray was anointed as the starter, they obviously did not want back up status or money.
Barker is to blame for staying with Ray and evaluating him ahead of these two.
That's a clear error in judgment, or in this case evaluating talent.

[MEEZY]

For the GM if he can get out of his contract, Eric Tillman from the Cats.
He was here once before and is rated as one of the best with contacts in the US.

Tillman? That speaks volumes about your level of football intelligence. Enough said.

[argotom]

Tillman? That speaks volumes about your level of football intelligence. Enough said.

Sorry Einstein?
He has survived in the CFL for a long time and everyone who knows has acknowledged his ability to evaluate talent and having valuable contacts in the US.
So Austin in Hamilton is again not as smart as you as well?

[argotom]

You're wrong. Calvillo made his career on those short passes in Trestman's system.

When Trestman came to the Als, the first think he did with Calvillo is the short drop and quick release, completely opposite to Malanovich of having Ray dropping back and staying in the pocket.

[R.J]

Tillman? That speaks volumes about your level of football intelligence. Enough said.
Not that I think Tillman would come here (he's pretty happy managing the Ticats with his best bud Austin), but Tillman is nowhere near a terrible/bad GM, and has loads of contacts down South.


When Trestman came to the Als, the first think he did with Calvillo is the short drop and quick release, completely opposite to Malanovich of having Ray dropping back and staying in the pocket.
???
It's the same system AT. The difference is the QB's - Calvillo was a quick release QB, and Ray is not.

[Argo]

They only left when Ray was anointed as the starter, they obviously did not want back up status or money.
Barker is to blame for staying with Ray and evaluating him ahead of these two.
That's a clear error in judgment, or in this case evaluating talent.

The GM acquires the QBs - it isn't his job to decide who starts. The target of your wrath is misplaced.

[1971GreyCup]

Once and for all can we get this straight -- both Collaros and Harris left as free agents. That is their right -- the same right every player has when his contract expires. They were not let go by Barker. They chose to leave. And in at least one of the two cases, that was after receiving a generous offer from Barker. So stop blaming him for their departures. Unless you think they should have been signed to 10-yr contracts before ever playing a game. They just did what tons of other guys (including our "own" Josh Bourke) have done.

I am not sure Barker or Milanovich's are totally blameless here. Negotiations are more than just about money. Harris has been here since 2012. Clearly, because Harris took less money to go to in Ottawa than to stay. Maybe Harris went to the RedBlack's because of their HC, OC and receivers. They look very good now and may be for the foreseeable future.

I make a living valuing assets. Present value = today's value plus the sum of all total future values. In Collaros situation, Ricky Ray then had more future value and I can see Barker's case.

In Harris's I am not so sure. Ricky Ray may have higher current value but little or no future value. I believe Ricky Ray was signed first and then Harris chose to go. It seems to me that Ricky may be done after this year or maybe next year at the latest. I think it's the GM's responsibility to find away to keep Harris. He didn't. While this has a big impact this year, the larger impact may be out in 2017 and beyond.

Eric Tillman's error in letting Ricky Ray go hurt them in 2012, but they have the same number of Grey Cups as Toronto and Mike Reilly looks like it won't be his last Grey Cup the way he is playing.

[Gill The Thrill]

Who even said this ?


That was me. So I've got to ask - Is Cory Greenwood not an elite linebacker ? Gabriel not an elite safety when healthy ?
We also have Miles, Waud, Bulcke, Bourke, Holmes, McEwen, Van Zeyl, Coombs, and Durie. Pretty good talent IMO and could all be starters on other teams.I like Cory Greenwood a lot, but you've thrown a ton of Canadian O-lineman, that's the stereotype of where most coaches think Canadians can only play on offence.

I like Durie and Coombs also, but Milanovich uses them like their bit players who just relieve the internationals when they get tired. Ever notice also how the Argo losses at home are also connected with a lack of running game. They have a much more balanced attack on the road and coincidentally, or not imo, have both their wins on the road.

Barker better have a talk Scott and tell him that the fans want a victory and a balanced offence like they played with in Vancouver. I don't want to spend all season at BMO looking like I'm duck hunting when I watch Ricky Ray throw a predictable fade to the endzone getting intercepted like he did vs Hamilton and like he also did vs Ottawa but was by bailed a pass interference call by the opposite cornerback in the Redblacks secondary.

[Argo57]

I am not sure Barker or Milanovich's are totally blameless here. Negotiations are more than just about money. Harris has been here since 2012. Clearly, because Harris took less money to go to in Ottawa than to stay. Maybe Harris went to the RedBlack's because of their HC, OC and receivers. They look very good now and may be for the foreseeable future.

I make a living valuing assets. Present value = today's value plus the sum of all total future values. In Collaros situation, Ricky Ray then had more future value and I can see Barker's case.

In Harris's I am not so sure. Ricky Ray may have higher current value but little or no future value. I believe Ricky Ray was signed first and then Harris chose to go. It seems to me that Ricky may be done after this year or maybe next year at the latest. I think it's the GM's responsibility to find away to keep Harris. He didn't. While this has a big impact this year, the larger impact may be out in 2017 and beyond.

Eric Tillman's error in letting Ricky Ray go hurt them in 2012, but they have the same number of Grey Cups as Toronto and Mike Reilly looks like it won't be his last Grey Cup the way he is playing.

Well stated, sometimes people seem to forget this isn't the Ricky Ray of 2012.

[Neely2005]

I like Cory Greenwood a lot, but you've thrown a ton of Canadian O-lineman, that's the stereotype of where most coaches think Canadians can only play on offence.

I like Durie and Coombs also, but Milanovich uses them like their bit players who just relieve the internationals when they get tired. Ever notice also how the Argo losses at home are also connected with a lack of running game. They have a much more balanced attack on the road and coincidentally, or not imo, have both their wins on the road.

Barker better have a talk Scott and tell him that the fans want a victory and a balanced offence like they played with in Vancouver. I don't want to spend all season at BMO looking like I'm duck hunting when I watch Ricky Ray throw a predictable fade to the endzone getting intercepted like he did vs Hamilton and like he also did vs Ottawa but was by bailed a pass interference call by the opposite cornerback in the Redblacks secondary.

1 interception in 4 games and the ball was tipped. Is that really what you're complaining about?

[ArgoGabe22]

At least we didn't throw money at Drew Willy.

[Ron]

You know there is a possibility that Harris wasn't going to sign here regardless. Look at the trend. Harris rejects a good contract during the season. He doesn't sign right after the season claiming he'll test free agency. So the Argos went ahead and signed Ray because Harris wasn't going to sign anyway. Fans all upset because the team didn't sign him like the Argos had a say.

[1argoholic]

Talk about stirring a big steaming pile of crap. Unreal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Barker has to find so many new faces year in and year out and stacks this team with talent. I'd say we have the best receiving core in the CFL. We still haven't seen Spencer. We were two tackles away from winning the other night. Two friggin tackles. One of the ten missed tackles on that short pass that Ellingson turned into a 70 yarder. The other on the punt return. Two tackles made, we win that game.
I get on Milanovich a bit but this is no time to cut him lose. He's basically working with new guys every year. We need some continuity. The team needs to get stable at it's new home and get fans out to make the home feel like home.

[Gill The Thrill]

1 interception in 4 games and the ball was tipped. Is that really what you're complaining about?

It's more the play call than the actual numbers...The fade and the jump ball is not a high percentage play and I see too many of Ricky's deep throws being these fades. Can he not throw a strong deep ball anymore.

The numbers are fine, but you have to admit they've also benefitted from the strict pass interference calls. I'll take Harris over him anytime from now, but the only point that Ray and Barker defenders have is that Harris chose to test the market. If he did leave the Argos and was offered more money, then you need to wonder what he did not like about the Argo situation, seeing that he was signed as the backup to Henry Burris in Ottawa.

[argotom]

1 interception in 4 games and the ball was tipped. Is that really what you're complaining about?


Yes one official pick, but there was another in the first game called back on account of a flag and 2 on Wednesday same deal.
The Argos 2 TD's especially the first was heavily flag assisted by Proulx and his crew.

[AngeloV]

When Trestman came to the Als, the first think he did with Calvillo is the short drop and quick release, completely opposite to Malanovich of having Ray dropping back and staying in the pocket.

I guess as well as not watching NFL (except for the hi-lights you are forced to watch) you haven't really watched or at least understood what you have been watching.



Yes one official pick, but there was another in the first game called back on account of a flag and 2 on Wednesday same deal.
The Argos 2 TD's especially the first was heavily flag assisted by Proulx and his crew.

Only one pick was actually called back. The ball clearly hit the turf on the one in the first quarter. As all turnovers are automatically reviewed, that would have been reversed.

[argotom]

It's more the play call than the actual numbers...The fade and the jump ball is not a high percentage play and I see too many of Ricky's deep throws being these fades. Can he not throw a strong deep ball anymore.

The numbers are fine, but you have to admit they've also benefitted from the strict pass interference calls. I'll take Harris over him anytime from now, but the only point that Ray and Barker defenders have is that Harris chose to test the market. If he did leave the Argos and was offered more money, then you need to wonder what he did not like about the Argo situation, seeing that he was signed as the backup to Henry Burris in Ottawa.


The bottom line is Ray should have been traded especially after his MOP year when Ottawa was coming in and during the same year Winnipeg were looking for a new QB and had to settle for Willy when Burris turned them down and went to Ottawa.
Either Collaros or Harris would have stayed if the team moved Ray and anointed either the starter that there is no question.

[1argoholic]

Ray is just warming up. Look out down the stretch. Mark my words. He's looking faster as well.

No worries as we have Fajardo who'll make Harris and Collaros look like too stiffs in a few years. Toronto the new CFL qb factory.

[Argo57]

The bottom line is Ray should have been traded especially after his MOP year when Ottawa was coming in and during the same year Winnipeg were looking for a new QB and had to settle for Willy when Burris turned them down and went to Ottawa.
Either Collaros or Harris would have stayed if the team moved Ray and anointed either the starter that there is no question.

Disagree with your sentiments on this one argotom, would have been assinine to trade Ray after his MOP season.
The subsequent shoulder surgery and Harris's overall performance in his first season would have had me reconsidering though.

[Jon Gonzo]

The OP makes it sound like an easy decision; dumping a HOF QB who is slowing down and approaching 40.

Gee, wonder why Management decided to stick with that guy?

= Anthony Cavillo.

How many times did Als Fans say the same thing?

Not that it guarantees anything, but experience and wisdom are always a good start.

[Neely2005]

Yes one official pick, but there was another in the first game called back on account of a flag and 2 on Wednesday same deal.
The Argos 2 TD's especially the first was heavily flag assisted by Proulx and his crew.

Well if we're going to start counting Ifs then we have to give Ray a few more TDs too for all the dropped balls.

[Neely2005]

It's more the play call than the actual numbers...The fade and the jump ball is not a high percentage play and I see too many of Ricky's deep throws being these fades. Can he not throw a strong deep ball anymore.

The numbers are fine, but you have to admit they've also benefitted from the strict pass interference calls. I'll take Harris over him anytime from now, but the only point that Ray and Barker defenders have is that Harris chose to test the market. If he did leave the Argos and was offered more money, then you need to wonder what he did not like about the Argo situation, seeing that he was signed as the backup to Henry Burris in Ottawa.

Does Ray call his own plays? I thought that the coaching staff called them?

[Neely2005]

The OP makes it sound like an easy decision; dumping a HOF QB who is slowing down and approaching 40.

Gee, wonder why Management decided to stick with that guy?

= Anthony Cavillo.

How many times did Al Fans say the same thing?

Not that it guarantees anything, but experience and wisdom are always a good start.

And Ray is 36. Burris won the MOP at 40. Allen won the MOP at 42.

[Gill The Thrill]

Does Ray call his own plays? I thought that the coaching staff called them?

Ricky Ray does have a brain doesn't he. Does he not have an opinion to change something or recommend something to his head coach if he notices something in reading the defense, or is he simply doing checkdowns like a high school QB on every play, and leaving all decisions to Milanovich and OC. He's the guy playing and he can be the only one of the 3, (QB, HC and OC) that can truly get a pulse for the game based on being a participant in the game.

Right or wrong. If he doesn't have any say, then that would be awfully strange after playing here for 4 years that he has not developed that rapport with Milanovich and OC.

[Neely2005]

Ricky Ray does have a brain doesn't he. Does he not have an opinion to change something or recommend something to his head coach if he notices something in reading the defense, or is he simply doing checkdowns like a high school QB on every play, and leaving all decisions to Milanovich and OC. He's the guy playing and he can be the only one of the 3, (QB, HC and OC) that can truly get a pulse for the game based on being a participant in the game.

Right or wrong. If he doesn't have any say, then that would be awfully strange after playing here for 4 years that he has not developed that rapport with Milanovich and OC.

So how do you know who is calling the Fades that you have an issue with?

[R.J]

I am not sure Barker or Milanovich's are totally blameless here. Negotiations are more than just about money. Harris has been here since 2012. Clearly, because Harris took less money to go to in Ottawa than to stay. Maybe Harris went to the RedBlack's because of their HC, OC and receivers. They look very good now and may be for the foreseeable future.

I make a living valuing assets. Present value = today's value plus the sum of all total future values. In Collaros situation, Ricky Ray then had more future value and I can see Barker's case.

In Harris's I am not so sure. Ricky Ray may have higher current value but little or no future value. I believe Ricky Ray was signed first and then Harris chose to go. It seems to me that Ricky may be done after this year or maybe next year at the latest. I think it's the GM's responsibility to find away to keep Harris. He didn't. While this has a big impact this year, the larger impact may be out in 2017 and beyond.

Eric Tillman's error in letting Ricky Ray go hurt them in 2012, but they have the same number of Grey Cups as Toronto and Mike Reilly looks like it won't be his last Grey Cup the way he is playing.
Ray had more future value than Collaros ?

[Ron]

Talk about stirring a big steaming pile of crap. Unreal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Barker has to find so many new faces year in and year out and stacks this team with talent. I'd say we have the best receiving core in the CFL. We still haven't seen Spencer. We were two tackles away from winning the other night. Two friggin tackles. One of the ten missed tackles on that short pass that Ellingson turned into a 70 yarder. The other on the punt return. Two tackles made, we win that game.
I get on Milanovich a bit but this is no time to cut him lose. He's basically working with new guys every year. We need some continuity. The team needs to get stable at it's new home and get fans out to make the home feel like home.

There's your answer AT. If 1argo becomes the ray of hope around here you know it's way too early to start talking about firing Barker or Milo.

[PullTogether73]

The bottom line is Ray should have been traded especially after his MOP year when Ottawa was coming in and during the same year Winnipeg were looking for a new QB and had to settle for Willy when Burris turned them down and went to Ottawa.
Either Collaros or Harris would have stayed if the team moved Ray and anointed either the starter that there is no question.

Trade the MOP of the league?
And anoint untested/unproven backups as his replacement?
Seriously?

Winner of the Peter Pocklington award for team management.
:ohno:

[PullTogether73]

Eric Tillman's error in letting Ricky Ray go hurt them in 2012, but they have the same number of Grey Cups as Toronto and Mike Reilly looks like it won't be his last Grey Cup the way he is playing.

Who are "they" that have the same number of Grey Cups as Toronto?

Argonauts have 16.
Eskimos have 14.

[1971GreyCup]

Who are "they" that have the same number of Grey Cups as Toronto?

Argonauts have 16.
Eskimos have 14.

Since the lob sided Ricky Ray trade, the Argos and Eskimos have the same number of Grey Cups. The Eskimos have Mike Reilly going forward.

[1971GreyCup]

In 2012, It could be argued that Ray had more future value. Collaros proved himself over a longer sample period in Hamilton, not Toronto.

[AngeloV]

Since the lob sided Ricky Ray trade, the Argos and Eskimos have the same number of Grey Cups. The Eskimos have Mike Reilly going forward.

But would they still have Mike Reilly of Tillman was the GM? Tillman isn't the GM that got Reilly, so the argument that he did the right thing for the Eskimos at the time is dead wrong.

I'm also of the opinion that the Eskimos D had a lot more to do with winning the Grey Cup than Reilly did. Chris Jones knows what he is doing.

[1971GreyCup]

BARKERS COMBINED GM/HC RECORD STAMPEDERS PLUS ARGOS (46%)
1 Grey Cup appearance
1 Grey Cup
- wins 92
- losses 109

HC Milanovich & Ricky Ray (2012-2016) (56%)
1 Grey Cup appearances
1 Grey Cup
Record
- wins 40
- losses 36

Calgary post Barker (73%)
2 Grey Cup appearances
1 Grey Cup
Record:
- wins 80
- losses 30

Edmonton post Ricky Ray (51%)
1 Grey Cup appearances
1 Grey Cup
Record:
- wins 39
- losses 37

Food for thought.....

[Jon Gonzo]

More food for thought;

Hall of Famer Bob O'Billovich; 1 Grey Cup and a .507 Win Record as a Head Coach

In the .300's as a GM.

Hall of Famer

[ArgoGabe22]

And what were the Argos record before Barker and after 2004?

[1971GreyCup]

I think the post 2004 record brought Barker in. Has he delivered on what he promised?

[ArgoGabe22]

http://i.imgur.com/0xs4wU8.jpg

[R.J]

In 2012, It could be argued that Ray had more future value. Collaros proved himself over a longer sample period in Hamilton, not Toronto.
I completely disagree.

[OV Argo]

Not totally sold on Barker being the best GM...he brings in the same type of receiver...apparently fast, big , but goes down with injuries...and doesn't fight for balls with moderate hands. Gurley is the best of them, but you have to admit if he was able to bring down everything he'd be earning a check in the NFL or would even be on a practice roster with his size. Kevin Elliot is always hurt and Hazelton has the best hands, but should stop his silly celebration after every 1st down. I like the Jim Brown approach of handing the ball off to the ref and not making it seem like it was your first catch and that you won't be making anymore.

Was reading posts criticizing the D in saying that they made Greg Ellingson look good on Wednesday night...perhaps it might be that he is very good. All he does is catch everything in sight and he does have the ability to make the first tackler miss with a quick subtle move. He's better than every receiver the Argos have. He may not beat them all in a 100 m race, but he's got better hands, is more durable and always makes big plays....That Ottawa receiving corp with Williams, Sinopoli and Jackson is better than ours...each of them has a special skill as a receiver that's different from the other guy. The Argos receivers are all cookie cutter guys...you play them tough and you limit the effectiveness of the entire unit.

Somebody said the Argos have the best Canadians....friggin laughable. Ottawa starts 3 Canadian linebackers and not one of them is a token player because of the ratio. They beat out the Americans that were available.

Who is the only unbeaten team in the CFL?...surprise...the Ottawa Redblacks at 3-0-1.


I believe you meant Ottawa starts 3 Canadian D-Linemen - which they do, though vet import Moton Hopkins is out with injury, and he might be more the starter if he was healthy.

But Ottawa do play more Canadian/NIs than all other teams in the league now - 9 starters, plus - back-ups get reps -Lattanzio at DT, Lafrance at RB for example; and Lavoie plays some on offence at H- back.

Not sure their Canadian talent is better than the Argos' though. Argos could easily start 10 Nis if everybody was healthy. McEwen progresses and gets in the line--up sooner than later, and Noel or Brian Jones get some real shots at receiver playing time, and the Argos probably do have league best NI talent IMO. Good drafting, and Bourke was a huge FA get (so was undrafted Durie back at the time too).

Have to agree that Ottawa's receiver talent is overall better, and by quite a bit - still say last year's big 3 for the Argos is quite over-rated (Hazelton is for sure IMO, but I like Gurley), and not that sold on Shaw or Ottawa reject Miles either - a bunch of pretty average receiver talent for the Argos IMO; wish Spencer would get healthy and in the line-up; wish they would use Durie/Coombs more like the position was used before; and wish Noel would get some reps (or that Brian Jones could be healthy and playing).

[1971GreyCup]

762
763

Looking back at the wins since 2010 the Argos have played in the middle to upper middle of the pack. They won a Grey Cup when only the Lions had a better record. Stampeders have dominated and Edmonton has come on stronger as of late. Ottawa has developed quickly into a force 2 1/2 years into the league.

The Bombers have consistently been dismal and the ALS have been in a free fall since 2010. The Lions haven't been able to replace Wally Buono and are trying to return to their dominance from 2011-2013. I think by the end of this year we'll have a better handle on Barker/Milanovich. Then there will be a transition period from Ricky Ray to ?

[Argo]

762
763

Looking back at the wins since 2010 the Argos have played in the middle to upper middle of the pack. They won a Grey Cup when only the Lions had a better record. Stampeders have dominated and Edmonton has come on stronger as of late. Ottawa has developed quickly into a force 2 1/2 years into the league.

The Bombers have consistently been dismal and the ALS have been in a free fall since 2010. The Lions haven't been able to replace Wally Buono and are trying to return to their dominance from 2011-2013. I think by the end of this year we'll have a better handle on Barker/Milanovich. Then there will be a transition period from Ricky Ray to ?

I think the best model to follow - and it's right out there in plain sight, year after year, is Calgary. Nice, balanced attack, etc., etc.
And, importantly (IIRC), Calgary doesn't tend to oscillate like a pendulum, playing quite nicely one game and then blowing rancid chunks during the next.

[1argoholic]

Thanks Ron I just about blew coffee all over the computer after reading that ray of hope comment. hahaha. I prefer Ricky Ray of Hope.

We have way too much player turnover from year to year. Barker lets guys out of contracts to pursue NFL dreams and once cut they sign elsewhere in the CFL. We lose guys to free agency and other then this year Barker hasn't gone after other CFL free agents much. We have more rookies then any other team.

I'd take our receivers over most teams. We just need that slow white Canadian who gets open on every play to help keep drives going. That's what we really miss.

[1971GreyCup]

765

[Reggiemac]

No way. In my view we are a RB and a new offensive strategy away from having a great season. The Defence is coming togrther quite nicely lots of individual talent that is learning to play together, and if we could get a RB that would intimidate opposing defences things would get a lot better on offence. Itsearly folks. With so few preseason games now it takes live action to build a team and the games all count so we dont get a lot of opportunity to experiment with points on the line. So we are getting to the point where players are learning to play as a team . Chill out, no one should get fired.

[Ron]

No way. In my view we are a RB and a new offensive strategy away from having a great season.

I was disappointed the Argos didn't grab Grigsby when he was available.

[Gill The Thrill]

I was disappointed the Argos didn't grab Grigsby when he was available.

I guess Barker thought they didn't need him. We still have Henry Josey on the practice squad.:ohno:

[1argoholic]

Kack attack!!!!

[Double Dare]

Kack attack!!!! He's past his expiry date.

[Gill The Thrill]

He's past his expiry date.

Kackert still much better than Josey. He just takes a little while to get his motor going now. He also needs touches because I remember many, and I mean many, on this board saying he should've been cut because we had Cory Boyd in 2012. Was sold on Milanovich and the team winning the 2012 Grey Cup when they cut Boyd to make Kackert the undisputed #1 back. I think Kackert could be as effective as Whitaker and could provide a real balanced attack without depending on Ray to through 40 passes a game. Keep the defenses on their heals.

[cfl-cis fan]

could spread the ball to the rest of the team ........... that will keep the defenses guessing instead of knowing that it is only going to 3 people in the passing game!!

[Neely2005]

He's past his expiry date.

Based on what? In the one game that he was actually utilized properly last season he excelled. He hasn't been used properly since.

[Neely2005]

Kackert still much better than Josey. He just takes a little while to get his motor going now. He also needs touches because I remember many, and I mean many, on this board saying he should've been cut because we had Cory Boyd in 2012. Was sold on Milanovich and the team winning the 2012 Grey Cup when they cut Boyd to make Kackert the undisputed #1 back. I think Kackert could be as effective as Whitaker and could provide a real balanced attack without depending on Ray to through 40 passes a game. Keep the defenses on their heals.

I couldn't agree more! Kackert and Whitaker could be a deadly combination.

[R.J]

No way. In my view we are a RB and a new offensive strategy away from having a great season. The Defence is coming togrther quite nicely lots of individual talent that is learning to play together, and if we could get a RB that would intimidate opposing defences things would get a lot better on offence. Itsearly folks. With so few preseason games now it takes live action to build a team and the games all count so we dont get a lot of opportunity to experiment with points on the line. So we are getting to the point where players are learning to play as a team . Chill out, no one should get fired.
???
How are we going to get a new offensive strategy without a change at the Head Coach/offensive coordinator position ?

[Argo]

???
How are we going to get a new offensive strategy without a change at the Head Coach/offensive coordinator position ?

Given anything less than two playoff game victories, or one post-season win followed by a creditable loss, we could and should hope to see a new head coach.

($ I think I remember hearing that Barker and Milanovich signed three year contracts. $)

[cfl-cis fan]

I couldn't agree more! Kackert and Whitaker could be a deadly combination.

so could passing to the 2 FB/H-Backs ...........

[Rich]

I couldn't agree more! Kackert and Whitaker could be a deadly combination.

Whitaker is taking a beating in pass protection, but they keep sending him out there every series. In the past few seasons we've been dressing 2 INT RBs because it keeps the backs fresher, and I don't understand why we're not doing it this year with Kackert. We know the guy can pass block. I'd activate Kackert and deactivate Bates at WR and take my chances with Noel as backup WR.

[1argoholic]

I've said it many times and I stand by the fact that Milanovich is so conservative. So many things he could do to kick start the O but he does the same stuff game in and game out. Why have players dressed or hanging around when you have no plans on using them? Why keep doing the same plays that never work over and over again? Just have your favorite get the crap beat out of him game in and game out in Whitacher. I'm not for firing Milo but he does need to change things up. I'd have plays for the two young qb's other then the one yard plunge. If you don't keep the D guessing you've lost half the battle.

[Will]

Ever notice how the Argos will often get out to a 14-0 or 10-0 lead and then somehow the pedal goes off the metal and the other team is allowed to get back into it?

[AngeloV]

Whitaker is taking a beating in pass protection, but they keep sending him out there every series. In the past few seasons we've been dressing 2 INT RBs because it keeps the backs fresher, and I don't understand why we're not doing it this year with Kackert. We know the guy can pass block. I'd activate Kackert and deactivate Bates at WR and take my chances with Noel as backup WR.

I agree they should be using 2 backs to keep them fresher, but I don't think they need to use an import to spell Whitaker. I would love to see Coombs taking reps at RB.

[R.J]

Ever notice how the Argos will often get out to a 14-0 or 10-0 lead and then somehow the pedal goes off the metal and the other team is allowed to get back into it?
As I've said previously - one of two things always seems to occur under Milanovich. #1. Either the Argos get off to a quick start then slow down too much to allow other teams back into it or #2. the team gets off to slow start then show up out of desperation midway through the 3rd quarter.

[Argo]

I agree they should be using 2 backs to keep them fresher, but I don't think they need to use an import to spell Whitaker. I would love to see Coombs taking reps at RB.

So would I. In general, though, "running game" and Milanovich don't compute.

Was there any reason not to sign Andrew Harris, and did Barker even try?

[R.J]

Given anything less than two playoff game victories, or one post-season win followed by a creditable loss, we could and should hope to see a new head coach.

($ I think I remember hearing that Barker and Milanovich signed three year contracts. $)
Yup, and this is only the first year of their new 3 year extension, so we're stuck for awhile it seems. IMO a mistake was made with at least one of those extensions, and depending on certain circumstances, both could've ended up as mistakes.


So would I. In general, though, "running game" and Milanovich don't compute.

Was there any reason not to sign Andrew Harris, and did Barker even try?
Harris was going back home; he brought up multiple times that he wanted to be with his daughter. I doubt Barker even made a phone call, but tbh unless he was willing to significantly pay more than $180k; Barker would've "lost out" on Harris anyway.

[Argo]

Yup, and this is only the first year of their new 3 year extension, so we're stuck for awhile it seems. IMO a mistake was made with at least one of those extensions, and depending on certain circumstances, both could've ended up as mistakes.


Harris was going back home; he brought up multiple times that he wanted to be with his daughter. I doubt Barker even made a phone call, but tbh unless he was willing to significantly more than $180k; Barker would've "lost out" on Harris anyway.

Re: Harris - ok, got it.

[AngeloV]

So would I. In general, though, "running game" and Milanovich don't compute.

Was there any reason not to sign Andrew Harris, and did Barker even try?

Not just Milanovich. It's all over the league this year. Duane Forde was on Ti-Cats lunch today and when discussing the amount of challenges that have been made, noted that the fact that so many things on the passing game are now challengeable, teams are throwing more, because even if a play doesn't work out, there is a good chance that there will be some type of infraction in the secondary. A really good point. I get the PI challenge, but IMO, the illegal contact needs to be taken out, and let the officials use their judgement.

As for Harris, apparently the Argos made a significant offer to him (I think I read it on Kirk Penton's blog), but he chose to go back home.

[R.J]

Not just Milanovich. It's all over the league this year. Duane Forde was on Ti-Cats lunch today and when discussing the amount of challenges that have been made, noted that the fact that so many things on the passing game are now challengeable, teams are throwing more, because even if a play doesn't work out, there is a good chance that there will be some type of infraction in the secondary. A really good point. I get the PI challenge, but IMO, the illegal contact needs to be taken out, and let the officials use their judgement.
Easy fix, but I doubt it'll happen. Take out the challenges and revert back to the old contact and PI rules. Video review (command centre and only if the refs call it in) should only be for turnovers, scoring plays, in or out of bounds, and/or within the last 3 minutes of the game. The eye in the sky should fix the mistakes, and ball placements - this way I don't have to hear "the ball will be placed right there" ever again.


As for Harris, apparently the Argos made a significant offer to him (I think I read it on Kirk Penton's blog), but he chose to go back home.
Correct. I forgot about that.

[AngeloV]

Easy fix, but I doubt it'll happen. Take out the challenges and revert back to the old contact and PI rules. Video review (command centre and only if the refs calls it in) should only be for turnovers, scoring plays, in or out of bounds, and/or within the last 3 minutes of the game. The eye in the sky should fix the mistakes, and ball placements - this way I don't have to hear "the ball will be placed right there" ever again.

.

I am 100% on board with that.

All these reviews are really annoying. I don't know if I am the only one that has noticed this, but Mike Reilly seems to complain every time he gets touched now. I'm all for protecting the QB's on hard hits low, or to the head, but when a player just grazes a QB, I get so frustrated with the calls.

[ArgoGabe22]

I am 100% on board with that.

All these reviews are really annoying. I don't know if I am the only one that has noticed this, but Trevor Harris/Henry Burris seems to complain every time he gets touched now. I'm all for protecting the QB's on hard hits low, or to the head, but when a player just grazes a QB, I get so frustrated with the calls.

Fixed.

[R.J]

All these reviews are really annoying. I don't know if I am the only one that has noticed this, but Mike Reilly seems to complain every time he gets touched now. I'm all for protecting the QB's on hard hits low, or to the head, but when a player just grazes a QB, I get so frustrated with the calls.
Yeah, I saw that as well. If he felt it was a late hit or high; he'd either complain to the ref or tap his helmet. In saying this, I'd like to see the roughing the passer penalty a little more lax. By this I mean maybe allowing defensive players two or three steps before contact or I don't know actually pay attention to what's going on in order to see the hit and how bad it was etc. Continue to protect QB's from high and low hits obviously, but IMO more attention needs to be paid to how the hits were made.


Trevor Harris/Henry Burris

Fixed.
HA.
Yeah, Burris is probably the biggest culprit. RE: complaining about hits or anything on field I suppose.

[AngeloV]

Yeah, I saw that as well. If he felt it was a late hit or high; he'd either complain to the ref or tap his helmet. In saying this, I'd like to see the roughing the passer penalty a little more lax. By this I mean maybe allowing defensive players two or three steps before contact or I don't know actually pay attention to what's going on in order to see the hit and how bad it was etc. Continue to protect QB's from high and low hits obviously, but IMO more attention needs to be paid to how the hits were made.


HA.
Yeah, Burris is probably the biggest culprit. RE: complaining about hits or anything on field I suppose.


3 Steps is too much, but they don't even give players 1 step anymore. It's almost as if they expect them to stop on a dime.


Fixed.

Difference being Burris has always been like that. Reilly was never like that before. It kind of ruins his reputation as a tough SOB QB.

[ArgoGabe22]

Yeah, I saw that as well. If he felt it was a late hit or high; he'd either complain to the ref or tap his helmet. In saying this, I'd like to see the roughing the passer penalty a little more lax. By this I mean maybe allowing defensive players two or three steps before contact or I don't know actually pay attention to what's going on in order to see the hit and how bad it was etc. Continue to protect QB's from high and low hits obviously, but IMO more attention needs to be paid to how the hits were made.

Shawn Lemon got fined for his hit on Lulay. Lemon really couldn't stop. Same thing against Ottawa, he does a spin move and gets shoved from behind,where he hits Harris low while falling. Both were unfair penalties IMO. Especially the fine.

[1argoholic]

Speaking of challenges and penalties I thought that players were to get flagged when whining for a flag or motioning in a flag tossing manner. Last year they did. Now they just whine like Harris and he gets his challenge and I think it effects the call in the end. I tell you we're heading towards a non contact spot.

[AngeloV]

Speaking of challenges and penalties I thought that players were to get flagged when whining for a flag or motioning in a flag tossing manner. Last year they did. Now they just whine like Harris and he gets his challenge and I think it effects the call in the end. I tell you we're heading towards a non contact spot.

I have seen 1 flag this year for a receiver emulating a flag throw. I don't think chirping was ever flagged unless it is excessive.

[R.J]

Shawn Lemon got fined for his hit on Lulay. Lemon really couldn't stop. Same thing against Ottawa, he does a spin move and gets shoved from behind,where he hits Harris low while falling. Both were unfair penalties IMO. Especially the fine.
The rule is if you hit the QB low whether pushed or not; it's a penalty, which I agree with tbh. The problem IMO is some of the "late hit" penalties; one or two steps after the throw is what it should be, but they've taken protecting the QB too far. I remember Glen Johnson first year as the head of officiating and Johnson stated live on the CFL on TSN during one of the halftimes that they weren't calling it differently, which to put it mildly is a farce.

[cfl-cis fan]

Whitaker is taking a beating in pass protection, but they keep sending him out there every series. In the past few seasons we've been dressing 2 INT RBs because it keeps the backs fresher, and I don't understand why we're not doing it this year with Kackert. We know the guy can pass block. I'd activate Kackert and deactivate Bates at WR and take my chances with Noel as backup WR.

from what I saw of Bates in the last game, what ever he was doing when on the field could be done by any of the RB's, why not keep that 2nd RB out there !

[Ron]

I personally like the way they protect all the QB's since defenders have no qualms at injuring them if they can get away with it. Nice to go to a a game and see the star QB's than to see them on the injured list.

[Argo]

Not just Milanovich. It's all over the league this year. Duane Forde was on Ti-Cats lunch today and when discussing the amount of challenges that have been made, noted that the fact that so many things on the passing game are now challengeable, teams are throwing more, because even if a play doesn't work out, there is a good chance that there will be some type of infraction in the secondary. A really good point. I get the PI challenge, but IMO, the illegal contact needs to be taken out, and let the officials use their judgement.

This highlights yet another negative effect of too much being challengeable. We'll have to endure an entire season of this nonsense before the league un-tweaks the rules.


As for Harris, apparently the Argos made a significant offer to him (I think I read it on Kirk Penton's blog), but he chose to go back home.

Glad to hear the Argos very sensibly made an offer.

[Ron]

This highlights yet another negative effect of too much being challengeable. We'll have to endure an entire season of this nonsense before the league un-tweaks the rules.
.

I'd just make it that if you lose a challenge ... you no longer have challenges the rest of the game. Coaches seem to not care about time outs and that would make them think twice on any first quarter play that might be funky.

[argolio]

I'd just make it that if you lose a challenge ... you no longer have challenges the rest of the game. Coaches seem to not care about time outs and that would make them think twice on any first quarter play that might be funky.That's true about timeouts. With the clock stopping after every play during the final three minutes, having a timeout is more of a luxury than a necessity.

[1argoholic]

If we lose to Montreal should Milo and Barker be fired? haha.

[Double Dare]

If we lose to Montreal should Milo and Barker be fired? haha. No, not Barker, only Spock Milanovich.

[Rich]

I agree they should be using 2 backs to keep them fresher, but I don't think they need to use an import to spell Whitaker. I would love to see Coombs taking reps at RB.

I just don't think Coombs can hack it, he doesn't block as well as Kack or Whit, and I don't like the way he always tries to run around tackles and never through them. IMO Coombs can't match the compete level of Durie or Kackert.

[R.J]

No, not Barker, only Spock Milanovich.
But what if Barker isn't willing to fire Milanovich; should Barker be given the boot as well ?

[Rich]

from what I saw of Bates in the last game, what ever he was doing when on the field could be done by any of the RB's, why not keep that 2nd RB out there !


I'm really not impressed with Bates. The team needs a new spark on offence, I don't know why they don't try replacing Bates with Wylie or Ambles or Noel for a game or two to see how that goes. After this start for the offence, the coach oughta be constantly trying new things until things start clicking.

[R.J]

I'm really not impressed with Bates. The team needs a new spark on offence, I don't know why they don't try replacing Bates with Wylie or Ambles or Noel for a game or two to see how that goes. After this start for the offence, the coach oughta be constantly trying new things until things start clicking.
I agree; Bates has been unimpressive to say the least.

[AngeloV]

I'm really not impressed with Bates. The team needs a new spark on offence, I don't know why they don't try replacing Bates with Wylie or Ambles or Noel for a game or two to see how that goes. After this start for the offence, the coach oughta be constantly trying new things until things start clicking.

I would love to see Noel get a shot. I know it was only pre-season, but he looked like a beast when he had balls thrown his way. I think Bates is only dressing because he is more of a threat in a TE set than either of the FB's or an O-lineman. If they knew that Gurley was a no go early enough last week, I'm pretty sure Ambles or Wylie would have dressed.

[cfl-cis fan]

I would love to see Noel get a shot. I know it was only pre-season, but he looked like a beast when he had balls thrown his way. I think Bates is only dressing because he is more of a threat in a TE set than either of the FB's or an O-lineman. If they knew that Gurley was a no go early enough last week, I'm pretty sure Ambles or Wylie would have dressed.

sorry but the rookie has not been given a fair shot at the H-Back spot .......... few times he has been in at te he has been wide open.

[R.J]

While I've continually read that Lache Seastrunk isn't very good at blocking or even catching out of the backfield; I'd like to see him brought in. The guy can run the ball, which IMO is important for a running back.

[AngeloV]

While I've continually read that Lache Seastrunk isn't very good at blocking or even catching out of the backfield; I'd like to see him brought in. The guy can run the ball, which IMO is important for a running back.

I don't think you'll find many RB's employed that can "only" run the ball. Even the NFL is starting to go away from that type of back.

[KCargosfan]

While I've continually read that Lache Seastrunk isn't very good at blocking or even catching out of the backfield; I'd like to see him brought in. The guy can run the ball, which IMO is important for a running back.

I can't say I recall too much of his pass-catching ability at Baylor, but I wouldn't think it would be poor. However, in college, he mainly would have ran the ball.

[Scooter McCray]

Are there any examples of a new HC coming in and winning a Grey Cup? I don't know. My guess would be no. The team has a shot. They need to play much better but they are not far from being in contention. They will not be hosting a GC for many years. They need to go with this group and when fully healthy see where they are at. Working guys they have on the roster makes sense. They have depth most teams do not.

[R.J]

I can't say I recall too much of his pass-catching ability at Baylor, but I wouldn't think it would be poor. However, in college, he mainly would have ran the ball.
From what I've read via the Calgary and Saskatchewan media reports and fan forums; Seastrunk struggled with blocks and had some issues with the passing game. TBH I think he's a good running back, and I'd like to see him get a shot here. Maybe he just needs more time to learn and develop as a blocking and receiving back.

[Jon Gonzo]

I'm really not impressed with Bates. The team needs a new spark on offence, I don't know why they don't try replacing Bates with Wylie or Ambles or Noel for a game or two to see how that goes. After this start for the offence, the coach oughta be constantly trying new things until things start clicking.


You get your wish; Wylie in.

I agree Bates hasn't impressed, and the Big 3 are banged up. The receivers aren't getting open.

According to Frankie Z., Ellsworth will play against his former team at LB (probably MLB), and Devon Smith is back.

Its early, but this game will say a bunch.

[Argo]

You get your wish; Wylie in.

I agree Bates hasn't impressed, and the Big 3 are banged up. The receivers aren't getting open.

According to Frankie Z., Ellsworth will play against his former team at LB (probably MLB), and Devon Smith is back.

Its early, but this game will say a bunch.

Yes, indeed, this game will speak at a loud volume.

[Will]

You get your wish; Wylie in.

I agree Bates hasn't impressed, and the Big 3 are banged up. The receivers aren't getting open.

According to Frankie Z., Ellsworth will play against his former team at LB (probably MLB), and Devon Smith is back.

Its early, but this game will say a bunch.

At least they're making an effort to "re-jig" the receiving corps. Does anyone know if Gurley is at least due back?

[R.J]

Yes, indeed, this game will speak at a loud volume.
???
I've been told this is just a regular game and doesn't mean more than any other game, and that to bring up comments such as this = negativity.

[Fumblitis]

Barker stole Ray, Barker stole Foley, Barker stole Lemon (Shawn that is), found the Big 3 plus other potential gems like Spencer and Shaw. Barker also brought in Collaros and Harris into the league. Barker's job is safe. Quite the improvement from where we were when Barker inherited the team.

Same thing with Milanovich. He's not perfect but is the best coach available. Having a consistent coaching staff is crucial. Firing him now is going in the wrong direction.

For anyone to lose their job just because they stuck with Ray is ludicrous.Barker stole Lemon? That was a win win for both sides if you ask me...even with Sewell not reporting.

[argotom]

Yes Barker may have brought in many players over the years some good and others horrid, who could forget the fiasco era known as Cleo Lemon.
It's letting blue chippers like this post to walk and now trading Gale although that one is too early to tell, that's my issue.

[ArgoGabe22]

Barker stole Lemon? That was a win win for both sides if you ask me...even with Sewell not reporting.

This was before the Durant injury but I do still think trading someone you value as 4th on your depth chart for a player with all-star potential is a steal. Even when excluding Sewell and the potential draft pick.

[R.J]

Yes Barker may have brought in many players over the years some good and others horrid, who could forget the fiasco era known as Cleo Lemon.
It's letting blue chippers like this post to walk and now trading Gale although that one is too early to tell, that's my issue.
How much of that is because of Milanovich though ?
Most won't believe me, but this has nothing to do with my bias against Milanovich; I'm just pointing out that Milanovich has made it extremely clear that Ray is his guy.

This was before the Durant injury but I do still think trading someone you value as 4th on your depth chart for a player with all-star potential is a steal. Even when excluding Sewell and the potential draft pick.
Keep in mind that Lemon wanted out of Saskatchewan, so the Riders could have either kept a disgruntled player or traded him for a backup QB they sorely needed. Even if the Durant didn't get injured the Riders still didn't a backup, and while Gale was only our 4th QB - Sask got what they needed and the Argos got what they wanted.

[Argo57]

Barker stole Lemon? That was a win win for both sides if you ask me...even with Sewell not reporting.

I agree with you, this deal filled a need for both teams to which the Riders have already benefitted.

[argotom]

How much of that is because of Milanovich though ?
Most won't believe me, but this has nothing to do with my bias against Milanovich; I'm just pointing out that Milanovich has made it extremely clear that Ray is his guy.

Keep in mind that Lemon wanted out of Saskatchewan, so the Riders could have either kept a disgruntled player or traded him for a backup QB they sorely needed. Even if the Durant didn't get injured the Riders still didn't a backup, and while Gale was only our 4th QB - Sask got what they needed and the Argos got what they wanted.


You may be right, for all we know it could be all Milanovich's fault or maybe the combination of the two?
If it is both, then we have a bigger issue of both under evaluating Ray's declining years versus the upside for Collaros, Harris and now possibly Gale.

[gilthethrill]

You may be right, for all we know it could be all Milanovich's fault or maybe the combination of the two?
If it is both, then we have a bigger issue of both under evaluating Ray's declining years versus the upside for Collaros, Harris and now possibly Gale.

The way I look at it, if Milanovich, who has a track record of developing CFL QB's decided to keep Kilgore over Gale, then the Argos have something to look forward to when Logan gets his chance to play. Fajardo could also be another fine CFL QB in time as well.

[Argo57]

The way I look at it, if Milanovich, who has a track record of developing CFL QB's decided to keep Kilgore over Gale, then the Argos have something to look forward to when Logan gets his chance to play. Fajardo could also be another fine CFL QB in time as well.

Here's hoping they've kept the right "next guy" when he eventually is needed or Argonaut management will be criticized beyond belief (and deservedly so) after stocking much of the Eastern Conference with their QB's of the present and future.

[R.J]

You may be right, for all we know it could be all Milanovich's fault or maybe the combination of the two?
If it is both, then we have a bigger issue of both under evaluating Ray's declining years versus the upside for Collaros, Harris and now possibly Gale.
Yeah, I'm not ready to include Gale in the same category as Collaros or even Harris at this point for that matter.

[paulwoods13]

C'mon, SnowRogue -- clearly Gale is gonna supplant Durant as Sask's starter. The evidence of the last two weeks is incontrovertible. Just as it's now evident Harris is gonna make everyone in Ottawa forget Russ Jackson.

[Fumblitis]

The way I look at it, if Milanovich, who has a track record of developing CFL QB's decided to keep Kilgore over Gale, then the Argos have something to look forward to when Logan gets his chance to play. Fajardo could also be another fine CFL QB in time as well.They should have never let Harris slip away in the first place.

[Fumblitis]

Yeah, I'm not ready to include Gale in the same category as Collaros or even Harris at this point for that matter.Me either as Montreal (and others) have game film on him now.

[Neely2005]

They should have never let Harris slip away in the first place.

They made him an offer mid-season last year. They made him another offer at the end of the season.

[Argo57]

They made him an offer mid-season last year. They made him another offer at the end of the season.

Before or after he was kicked aside for the ESF??

[R.J]

C'mon, SnowRogue -- clearly Gale is gonna supplant Durant as Sask's starter. The evidence of the last two weeks is incontrovertible. Just as it's now evident Harris is gonna make everyone in Ottawa forget Russ Jackson.
TBH I still think Jones will go hard after Franklin during free agency, which could make things interesting since the Bombers will most likely be looking for a QB as well.

I believe Jensen is a free agent as well.
;)

They should have never let Harris slip away in the first place.
Collaros

Me either as Montreal (and others) have game film on him now.
Yup, it will be interesting to see how Gale responds once teams "figure him out".

They made him an offer mid-season last year. They made him another offer at the end of the season.
Which obviously wasn't good enough and the big sticking point was probably "open competition" with Ricky Ray.

[AngeloV]

Before or after he was kicked aside for the ESF??

According to Barker, before Ray even returned. He said this on an interview with Naylor and Landsberg before the Ottawa game. I guess only they will know for sure.

[Neely2005]

Before or after he was kicked aside for the ESF??

Mid-season is before the ESF.

[Argo57]

Mid-season is before the ESF.

Sorry, missed the mid season part.

[argotom]

C'mon, SnowRogue -- clearly Gale is gonna supplant Durant as Sask's starter. The evidence of the last two weeks is incontrovertible. Just as it's now evident Harris is gonna make everyone in Ottawa forget Russ Jackson.

That's sarcasm at it's best!
No one is saying Gale will be a 1st stringer like Harris or Collaros.
He just looked surprisingly good during the two games.
As for Harris, you are kidding yourself if you think he should not be an Argo right now over Ray.

[Argo57]

According to Barker, before Ray even returned. He said this on an interview with Naylor and Landsberg before the Ottawa game. I guess only they will know for sure.

Harris probably was told Ray was still the guy when he returned from injury, oh well we move on.

[Fumblitis]

They made him an offer mid-season last year. They made him another offer at the end of the season.Yeah and from what I recall, he was offered $300000 to be Burris' backup something Bell wouldn't even come close to paying for.

[Fumblitis]

That's sarcasm at it's best!
No one is saying Gale will be a 1st stringer like Harris or Collaros.
He just looked surprisingly good during the two games.
As for Harris, you are kidding yourself if you think he should not be an Argo right now over Ray.No! But in an era where the backup QB is as valuable as the starter, I have a lot of comfort knowing we have somebody with brains in the bullpen.

[ArgoGabe22]

Yeah and from what I recall, he was offered $300000 to be Burris' backup something Bell wouldn't even come close to paying for.

For what it's worth, Barker claims Argos offer during the season was actually more than the offer he took from Ottawa. I'm sure this is when the news his representatives wanted Harris to be one of the highest paid QBs broke out. No one is exactly sure whether this is true or not.

[Ron]

I don't know why anyone is even pining for Harris or Collaros anymore ... those two injury prone pansies.

[1argoholic]

The ship has sailed on Collaros, Harris and Crystal Gale. They are nothing to me at this point.

[Argo57]

i don't know why anyone is even pining for harris or collaros anymore ... Those two injury prone pansies.

lol👍👍

[Argo]

More will be known later this evening about the operational status of this thread!

[R.J]

For what it's worth, Barker claims Argos offer during the season was actually more than the offer he took from Ottawa. I'm sure this is when the news his representatives wanted Harris to be one of the highest paid QBs broke out. No one is exactly sure whether this is true or not.
Am I the only one who has real trouble believing this ?

[doubleblue]

For what it's worth, Barker claims Argos offer during the season was actually more than the offer he took from Ottawa. I'm sure this is when the news his representatives wanted Harris to be one of the highest paid QBs broke out. No one is exactly sure whether this is true or not.

Without looking it all up. I remember something about Ricky Ray agreeing to a base salary of around 200,000 to 250,00 plus time played, and Harris was offered 200,000 plus time played. (Incentives)
Ottawa apparently offered roughly the same for this year, but then are bumping that up to 400,000 next year. That the Argos apparently didn't want to match. All speculation maybe but probably close to what has happened. I also read where Hank took a discount this year to help out Ottawa on their cap. His time on the 6 game IR would now be off the cap books.
However it works. Post Season announcement: All teams were under the Cap this year. :)

[PullTogether73]

Am I the only one who has real trouble believing this ?

Nope.

[R.J]

Under $200k base for Harris was the offer I recall.

[paulwoods13]

Obviously none of us will ever know exactly what was offered. But if Barker is lying, he's running the risk of being called on it by Harris or his representative. Of course, Barker could be correct that Harris had the potential to exceed his Ottawa salary, if he had accepted the Argo offer and attained the bonuses set out therein. So it could be lower base, higher target. I've not seen anything about what Harris is making this year with Ottawa but it's presumably a lot less than the $350-400k reported for 2017.

[R.J]

Without looking it all up. I remember something about Ricky Ray agreeing to a base salary of around 200,000 to 250,00 plus time played, and Harris was offered 200,000 plus time played. (Incentives)
Ottawa apparently offered roughly the same for this year, but then are bumping that up to 400,000 next year. That the Argos apparently didn't want to match. All speculation maybe but probably close to what has happened. I also read where Hank took a discount this year to help out Ottawa on their cap. His time on the 6 game IR would now be off the cap books.
However it works. Post Season announcement: All teams were under the Cap this year. :)
Missed this comment. Pretty spot on though.
Ray = a reported $250k base and $245k incentives/bonuses
Harris in TO = IIRC it was reportedly (Zicarelli ?) under $200k base and no more than $150k in bonuses
Harris in OTT = reportedly $200-250k base and $100-150k incentives this season and $375-400k base in 2017.

[argotom]

Money aside the bottom line is the Argos announced Ray was their guy for this year and especially during the playoff game last year, even though he was injured, the latter which likely was the main reason for Harris eventually leaving.

[KCargosfan]

How laughable is the original post of this thread now?

[PullTogether73]

How laughable is the original post of this thread now?

Wait for the next Argonauts loss.
This thread will probably heat up again at that time.
:ohno:

[gilthethrill]

I would say last night's win takes a little bit of pressure off our HC and GM.

[Argo57]

I would say last night's win takes a little bit of pressure off our HC and GM.

They only won by 3 points, fire them both!!

[Will]

I fully expected to have to have banned 1/2 of you if the Argos had lost :D

[Neely2005]

Missed this comment. Pretty spot on though.
Ray = a reported $250k base and $245k incentives/bonuses
Harris in TO = IIRC it was reportedly (Zicarelli ?) under $200k base and no more than $150k in bonuses
Harris in OTT = reportedly $200-250k base and $100-150k incentives this season and $375-400k base in 2017.

IIRC Harris and Ray were offered the same contracts.

[Neely2005]

How laughable is the original post of this thread now?

It was laughable as soon as it was posted.

[1argoholic]

Sign both to contract extensions NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[R.J]

IIRC Harris and Ray were offered the same contracts.
According to Barker you mean ?

[Reggiemac]

Oh yee of little faith...behind the argos win or tie! Chill out folks our coaching and management are first class and many would say they are geniuses. We are one third the way through the season with a myriad of injuries and we are still fielding an entertaining product that wins their share of games with a promise of even better times ahead. File the negativity.

[AngeloV]

They only won by 3 points, fire them both!!

Are Tillman and Trestman ready to come in and replace them yet? ☺

[KCargosfan]

Are Tillman and Trestman ready to come in and replace them yet? ☺

hahaha

[argotom]

hahaha

A lot of class here plus throw in Neely?
For a laughable post it sure has endured?
But of course, you three and some others are always right?

[marcwagz]

we've played 6 games so we should have at least 6 wins this year!

You know its funny, prior to this season the Argos had never lost a game I had attended.
This season the only games I have attended are the games they lost.

[AngeloV]

A lot of class here plus throw in Neely?
For a laughable post it sure has endured?
But of course, you three and some others are always right?

Us 3 and almost everyone else. I guess you are the only one that doesn't get how funny your cliche filled posts truly are.

[Argo57]

Us 3 and almost everyone else. I guess you are the only one that doesn't get how funny your cliche filled posts truly are.

Angelo, Milanovich and Barker are giving 110% effort and leaving it all on the field.
When the going gets tough the tough get going, patience is a virtue and we must stay the course.
Let's see how it plays out.

[KCargosfan]

A lot of class here plus throw in Neely?
For a laughable post it sure has endured?
But of course, you three and some others are always right?

Oh come on, AT, lighten up.

I have been wrong many a time and will continue to be in the future. But calling for the head coach and GM to be fired when the team is 2-2, that is a bit absurd.

[argotom]

Oh come on, AT, lighten up.

I have been wrong many a time and will continue to be in the future. But calling for the head coach and GM to be fired when the team is 2-2, that is a bit absurd.


KC, if you look at my post it was based on letting Collaros and Harris go.
If you look at the posting since I say we are split on this issue so clearly it deserved some time.

[1argoholic]

The Hatfields and Mcoys have nothing on this site. hahahaha.

[KCargosfan]

KC, if you look at my post it was based on letting Collaros and Harris go.
If you look at the posting since I say we are split on this issue so clearly it deserved some time.

Being unhappy with the decision to let Collaros go, and being unhappy with perhaps not offering Harris more $ are legit gripes. Though Collaros left when Ray was what, 33?

But with the team's overall performance under Barker and Milanovich working under incredibly difficult conditions under Braley, imo that is not a legit gripe. And I don't think half the board was calling for them to be fired.

[Argo57]

Being unhappy with the decision to let Collaros go, and being unhappy with perhaps not offering Harris more $ are legit gripes. Though Collaros left when Ray was what, 33?

But with the team's overall performance under Barker and Milanovich working under incredibly difficult conditions under Braley, imo that is not a legit gripe. And I don't think half the board was calling for them to be fired.

Watch some of the Argonaut performances from the mid 1970's until Bob O'Billovich arrived in 1982 and you'll realize we've got it really good with Milanovich, Barker and the whole management team.
My father and I sat through many pathetic displays of Argonaut football back in those days.

[KCargosfan]

Watch some of the Argonaut performances from the mid 1970's until Bob O'Billovich arrived in 1982 and you'll realize we've got it really good with Milanovich, Barker and the whole management team.
My father and I sat through many pathetic displays of Argonaut football back in those days.

I think Barker is arguably the best GM in the league, and Milo is in the top half of coaches. Considering what they dealt with the last 3 years with Braley and the Dome, these guys are damn impressive.

[Argo57]

I think Barker is arguably the best GM in the league, and Milo is in the top half of coaches. Considering what they dealt with the last 3 years with Braley and the Dome, these guys are damn impressive.

Yes sir, trust me I get really pissed when the Argos aren't playing well but as I said I suffered through some dismal times at the old Exhibition Stadium.
"Be careful what you wish for" certainly applies here IMO.

[AngeloV]

Angelo, Milanovich and Barker are giving 110% effort and leaving it all on the field.
When the going gets tough the tough get going, patience is a virtue and we must stay the course.
Let's see how it plays out.

You missed first one to work and last one to leave. You know the description that media members love to give to all Caucasian players.

[AngeloV]

Watch some of the Argonaut performances from the mid 1970's until Bob O'Billovich arrived in 1982 and you'll realize we've got it really good with Milanovich, Barker and the whole management team.
My father and I sat through many pathetic displays of Argonaut football back in those days.

I have used that argument and been told that I settle for mediocrity.

[Will]

Yes sir, trust me I get really pissed when the Argos aren't playing well but as I said I suffered through some dismal times at the old Exhibition Stadium.
"Be careful what you wish for" certainly applies here IMO.

You can watch some of those dismal times on Newton Minnow's YouTube channel :p

[ArgoRavi]

You can watch some of those dismal times on Newton Minnow's YouTube channel :p

There are a few on Gump 05's channel too. I have been reminded that those Argos teams were even worse than I remember them, on offence in particular.

[R.J]

Watch some of the Argonaut performances from the mid 1970's until Bob O'Billovich arrived in 1982 and you'll realize we've got it really good with Milanovich, Barker and the whole management team.
My father and I sat through many pathetic displays of Argonaut football back in those days.
So, let me get this straight, because the Argonauts were craptastic during the "dark ages" and since the eighties have been inconsistent to now mediocre; does this mean that I have to wait another 20+ years in order for the Argonauts to become a consistently dominant team ?

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how or why there's only two options (being crap or mediocre).

[AngeloV]

So, let me get this straight, because the Argonauts were craptastic during the "dark ages" and since the eighties have been inconsistent to now mediocre; does this mean that I have to wait another 20+ years in order for the Argonauts to become a consistently dominant team ?

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how or why there's only two options (being crap or mediocre).

Because change for the sake of change is stupid. There is a lot of parity in the league and the Argos are at the top of the standings with only Calgary having a better winning percentage.

[R.J]

Because change for the sake of change is stupid. There is a lot of parity in the league and the Argos are at the top of the standings with only Calgary having a better winning percentage.
I'm not saying change things just because (neither have others actually), I believe I've pointed out multiple times why changes were needed (No point in doing it during the season though).

We're 6 games in and that's a triumph already ?

[AngeloV]

I'm not saying change things just because (neither have others actually), I believe I've pointed out multiple times why changes were needed (No point in doing it during the season though).

We're 6 games in and that's a triumph already ?

No, but it should at the very least give you a wait and see attitude. You don't like his style and want him out. I see a guy that has had good seasons under very trying circumstances, in a very unlevel playing field based on resources.

[Argo57]

So, let me get this straight, because the Argonauts were craptastic during the "dark ages" and since the eighties have been inconsistent to now mediocre; does this mean that I have to wait another 20+ years in order for the Argonauts to become a consistently dominant team ?

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how or why there's only two options (being crap or mediocre).

TBH I think the days of any team being "consistently dominant" are gone, replaced by teams that are "consistently competitive".
All CFL teams scout US college bowl games, all have NFL contacts and all hold free agent camps so competition is fierce.
Barker and his staff have been handcuffed until this year in some of these activities with the state of previous ownership.

[Argo57]

You can watch some of those dismal times on Newton Minnow's YouTube channel :p

I've done that, stark reminder of how bad things could be.

[R.J]

TBH I think the days of any team being "consistently dominant" are gone, replaced by teams that are "consistently competitive".
All CFL teams scout US college bowl games, all have NFL contacts and all hold free agent camps so competition is fierce.
Barker and his staff have been handcuffed until this year in some of these activities with the state of previous ownership.
John Hufnagel never lost more than 7 games in a season.

2008: 13-5
2009: 10-7-1
2010: 13-5
2011: 11-7
2012: 12-6
2013: 14-4
2014: 15-3
2015: 14-4

Wally Buono's coaching record is also very impressive. 17 out of 22 seasons (excluding this season) where he had 11 or more wins.

Chris Jones' records as the Eskimos Head Coach = 12-6 and 14-4.

[Argo57]

John Hufnagel never lost more than 7 games in a season.

2008: 13-5
2009: 10-7-1
2010: 13-5
2011: 11-7
2012: 12-6
2013: 14-4
2014: 15-3
2015: 14-4

Wally Buono's coaching record is also very impressive. 17 out of 22 seasons (excluding this season) where he had 11 or more wins.

Chris Jones' records as the Eskimos Head Coach = 12-6 and 14-4.

What really counts:
Grey Cup Championships since 2000
BC Lions 3
Calgary Stampeders 3
Montreal Alouettes 3
Edmonton Eskimos 3
Toronto Argonauts 2 (World Championships)
Saskatchewan Roughriders 2

Basically 6 of the 8 franchises (excluding Ottawa from the equation) have won a Grey Cup since 2000.
Doesn't sound like any particular franchise dominating to me?

[argos1873]

You missed first one to work and last one to leave. You know the description that media members love to give to all Caucasian players.

Really? What a stupid thing to say.

[R.J]

What really counts:
Grey Cup Championships since 2000
BC Lions 3
Calgary Stampeders 3
Montreal Alouettes 3
Edmonton Eskimos 3
Toronto Argonauts 2 (World Championships)
Saskatchewan Roughriders 2

Basically 6 of the 8 franchises (excluding Ottawa from the equation) have won a Grey Cup since 2000.
Doesn't sound like any particular franchise dominating to me?
You're talking Grey Cup Dynasties ? Yeah, those days are gone in North American sports due to the salary cap.

[PullTogether73]

You're talking Grey Cup Dynasties ? Yeah, those days are gone in North American sports due to the salary cap.

Agreed.
Salary cap plus free agency/player movement.

[Neely2005]

You're talking Grey Cup Dynasties ? Yeah, those days are gone in North American sports due to the salary cap.

The Chicago Blackhawks might disagree.

[Argo57]

Agreed.
Salary cap plus free agency/player movement.

Yes, you'll never see the likes of Edmonton's championship run in the late 70's early 80's.
Teams can't stay together for the reasons already mentioned.

[R.J]

The Chicago Blackhawks might disagree.
While the Blackhawks and maybe the Patriots are the closest thing to a Dynasty nowadays - they're not Dynasties. Dynasties are the Edmonton Oilers, Eskimos, and NY Islanders in the 70's and 80's.

[Neely2005]

While the Blackhawks and maybe the Patriots are the closest thing to a Dynasty nowadays - they're not Dynasties. Dynasties are the Edmonton Oilers, Eskimos, and NY Islanders in the 70's and 80's.

The Islanders won 4 championships in 4 years.
The Oilers won 5 championships in 7 years.
The Eskimos won 6 championships in 8 years.

The Blackhawks won 3 championships in 6 years.
The Patriots won 3 championships in 4 years.

What's the definition of a dynasty?

[R.J]

The Islanders won 4 championships in 4 years.
The Oilers won 5 championships in 7 years.
The Eskimos won 6 championships in 8 years.

The Blackhawks won 3 championships in 6 years.
The Patriots won 3 championships in 4 years.

What's the definition of a dynasty?
Didn't know about the Pats 3 in 4, so you got me there. Blackhawks is now 3 in 7, but whatever it's semantics, so yeah their a Dynasty as well. I don't think the Blackhawks will continue with their good fortune, but admit I was wrong - thought it was less than that tbh.

A sports dynasty is a team or individual that dominates their sport or league for an extended length of time.

[AngeloV]

Really? What a stupid thing to say.

Sorry, I should have added an smiley and some context. It was actually a topic on an ESPN radio show a couple of weeks ago, how media seems to refer to successful black players as tremendous athletes and successful white players as hard working and thinking players. The first one in and last to leave example was mentioned.

Sometimes I don't think that not everyone knows what I'm referring to in instances such as this.

[argos1873]

Sorry, I should have added an smiley and some context. It was actually a topic on an ESPN radio show a couple of weeks ago, how media seems to refer to successful black players as tremendous athletes and successful white players as hard working and thinking players. The first one in and last to leave example was mentioned.

Sometimes I don't think that not everyone knows what I'm referring to in instances such as this.

Sorry, with the extremely large smileys on this site I don't blame you for not using them. I agree with you that the media is stupid when it comes to race, your example is actually perfect one but the other one I've notice since a child especially in baseball and football, probably basketball too, is that they will only ever compare a player of one race with another. For example the last Argo game one of the commentators probably Rod Black compared Devon Wylie to Weston Dresser and some other white WR. If you weren't aware of this phenomena, just pay attention to comparisons in the future, they will never say a white player is like a black player or vice versa. I always found that odd.

[AngeloV]

Sorry, with the extremely large smileys on this site I don't blame you for not using them. I agree with you that the media is stupid when it comes to race, your example is actually perfect one but the other one I've notice since a child especially in baseball and football, probably basketball too, is that they will only ever compare a player of one race with another. For example the last Argo game one of the commentators probably Rod Black compared Devon Wylie to Weston Dresser and some other white WR. If you weren't aware of this phenomena, just pay attention to comparisons in the future, they will never say a white player is like a black player or vice versa. I always found that odd.

I agree 100% with that example. I don't think it was intended that way, but subconsciously that type of comparison always seems to come up.

[Ron]

The Islanders won 4 championships in 4 years.
The Oilers won 5 championships in 7 years.
The Eskimos won 6 championships in 8 years.

The Blackhawks won 3 championships in 6 years.
The Patriots won 3 championships in 4 years.

What's the definition of a dynasty?

I like what you did here. Show some recent dynasties but also piss off Habs fans.

[R.J]

Sorry, with the extremely large smileys on this site I don't blame you for not using them. I agree with you that the media is stupid when it comes to race, your example is actually perfect one but the other one I've notice since a child especially in baseball and football, probably basketball too, is that they will only ever compare a player of one race with another. For example the last Argo game one of the commentators probably Rod Black compared Devon Wylie to Weston Dresser and some other white WR. If you weren't aware of this phenomena, just pay attention to comparisons in the future, they will never say a white player is like a black player or vice versa. I always found that odd.


I agree 100% with that example. I don't think it was intended that way, but subconsciously that type of comparison always seems to come up.
Wasn't Kackert compared to Josh Ranek ?

[AngeloV]

Wasn't Kackert compared to Josh Ranek ?

Yes he was. I've heard him referred to as the little ball of hate, which was what Ranek was called.

[Neely2005]

Yes he was. I've heard him referred to as the little ball of hate, which was what Ranek was called.

Brad Marchand is also called the little ball of hate.

[paulwoods13]

Brad Marchand is also called the little ball of hate.

And so was Pat Verbeek.

[AngeloV]

Brad Marchand is also called the little ball of hate.


No, he's a big nosed ball of goof...AKA a goofball.

[Neely2005]

No, he's a big nosed ball of goof...AKA a goofball.

He's just a slightly less dirty and more talented version of Darcey Tucker.

You love them when they're on your team and hate them when they're not.

[AngeloV]

He's just a slightly less dirty and more talented version of Darcey Tucker.

You love them when they're on your team and hate them when they're not.

Actually, I never liked Tucker's act as a Leaf either. Sundin made him.

[Argo57]

He's just a slightly less dirty and more talented version of Darcey Tucker.

You love them when they're on your team and hate them when they're not.

Sorry, Leaf fan all my life but Tucker was a knob even with Toronto.

[Will]

Liked Darcy Tucker pre-lockout; did not like Darcy Tucker post-lockout.

Anyone who got under the skin of Ottawa Senator fans at the time is fine in my book.

[1argoholic]

I call Marchant the little bag of shite.

[R.J]

I call Marchant the little bag of shite.
Great insight.

[argotom]

How did we make the pivot to hockey and the No Funners?

[argolio]

How did we make the pivot to hockey and the No Funners?Thread topic got boring.

[Jon Gonzo]

Marchant may be a little bag of whatever you want to call him, but 29 NHL GM's would love to find a way to have that "little bag" delivered to them somehow.

Darcy Tucker was a bad and divisive team-mate. Marchant is not, and is much better the player.

As for athletes being compared to other athletes of same colour;

I doubt OJ minded when he was compared to Jim Brown as opposed to Frank Gifford, lol

I am a proud white man. If I were black, I'd be a proud black man.

To the players, this topic would make them laugh. Non issue.

[paulwoods13]

I doubt OJ minded when he was compared to Jim Brown as opposed to Frank Gifford, lol


I wouldn't be too sure about that. OJ was infamous for declaring, "I'm not black, I'm OJ."

[AngeloV]

Darcy Tucker was a bad and divisive team-mate. Marchant is not, and is much better the player.



Really? There have been a lot of rumblings that he was a bad influence on Tyler Seguin, and Seguin was eventually dealt. That to me is pretty divisive.

[ArgoRavi]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. OJ was infamous for declaring, "I'm not black, I'm OJ."

The ESPN documentary series that was just released about OJ is an excellent one and talks about how OJ seemed to go out of his way to not be identified as a "black athlete".

[Neely2005]

Really? There have been a lot of rumblings that he was a bad influence on Tyler Seguin, and Seguin was eventually dealt. That to me is pretty divisive.

I think that you have that backwards.

[Jon Gonzo]

I wouldn't be too sure about that. OJ was infamous for declaring, "I'm not black, I'm OJ."

Yes, breaking barriers is never easy and OJ was essentially the' first Black Athlete to haul in major endorsement money. Ironically, sometimes we look up to the wrong people and types of people regardless of color. Still an accomplishment, but wish it was another person. Too late.

[Jon Gonzo]

Wasn't Kackert compared to Josh Ranek ? Shucks, and here I was looking forward to the next Jason Clermont (Brian Jones)! Too bad. Maybe he plays more like Obed Cetoute then. Ya ok

[AngeloV]

I think that you have that backwards.

No, I think the GM that was fired is the one that had it backwards. Since when is a 19 year old a bad influence on an older player?

[Neely2005]

No, I think the GM that was fired is the one that had it backwards. Since when is a 19 year old a bad influence on an older player?

Tyler Seguin’s party lifestyle irked Boston Bruins, father says
Tyler Seguin’s enjoyment of Boston bar scene didn’t sit well with Bruins and ultimately led to him being traded to Dallas Stars, Paul Seguin says:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2013/07/05/tyler_seguins_mom_lashes_out_at_boston_media_over_ partying_reports.html

[AngeloV]

Tyler Seguin’s party lifestyle irked Boston Bruins, father says
Tyler Seguin’s enjoyment of Boston bar scene didn’t sit well with Bruins and ultimately led to him being traded to Dallas Stars, Paul Seguin says:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2013/07/05/tyler_seguins_mom_lashes_out_at_boston_media_over_ partying_reports.html

And the GM was still fired, as the team has regressed since that decision. In contrast, Chicago was able to work with off ice problem child Patrick Kane.

Marchand's big season did nothing to get his team into the playoffs. I'm sure even a few of his teammates don't like him.

[Neely2005]

And the GM was still fired, as the team has regressed since that decision. In contrast, Chicago was able to work with off ice problem child Patrick Kane.

Marchand's big season did nothing to get his team into the playoffs. I'm sure even a few of his teammates don't like him.

Regardless I have heard 0 about off ice problems with Marchand which was your assertion & I'm pretty sure that I follow the Bruins a lot closer than anyone else on this site.

Brad Marchand was a force in the 2011 Stanley Cup Final. Seguin was not.

Marchand is well liked by his teammates and will probably be playing for Canada (again) at the World Cup and/or Olympics.

[Jon Gonzo]

Regardless I have heard 0 about off ice problems with Marchand which was your assertion & I'm pretty sure that I follow the Bruins a lot closer than anyone else on this site.

Brad Marchand was a force in the 2011 Stanley Cup Final. Seguin was not.

Marchand is well liked by his teammates and will probably be playing for Canada (again) at the World Cup and/or Olympics.


Agreed. Marchand is a widely respected talent in the World of Hockey, and the team has lauded him in his growing maturity and development as a player. But, I don't expect anyone to really know that as this is a Football Fan Board in Toronto. Understood.

When are we firing Milanovich and Barker then?

[R.J]

And the GM was still fired, as the team has regressed since that decision.
And now in Edmonton where he's still making some questionable moves.

[Reggiemac]

Now that we signed Lefevour I can see Barker stockpiling more canadian draft picks. Very shrewd. Someone will need a qb and will pay our price. Thats how to build a dynasty. And we are.

[AngeloV]

I was a little surprised to see how big a guy LeFevour is. Actually all the Argos QB's are big and fairly mobile. Was watching YouTube hi-lights of Kilgore the other day from hi JUCO playing days. Said he ran a 4.56 at his pro day, and he had some big runs in the game film.

[Argo]

Testing, testing, 1, 2 ,3 ... : ))

[Shipyard]

i see Lefevour has our third down QB and thats it. Our offence is too complicated for his tool set (he basically has a very similar style to tebow). 3rd down and wildcat sets my be introduced.

[1argoholic]

Kilgore has to go. The kid really doesn't have it to be successful in any league. He just makes up his mind and tosses it whether a guy is wide open or covered by four and get's his head knocked off. Maybe Milo saying just toss it even if you get picked 8 times is his way of setting him up to cut his sorry arse.
I take it back as Michael Bishop was a bit better then Kilgore.

[ArgoZ]

Kilgore has to go. The kid really doesn't have it to be successful in any league. He just makes up his mind and tosses it whether a guy is wide open or covered by four and get's his head knocked off. Maybe Milo saying just toss it even if you get picked 8 times is his way of setting him up to cut his sorry arse.
I take it back as Michael Bishop was a bit better then Kilgore.

Everyone should be fired after a loss, that's the forum way! Take it easy bud, they are still in first place.

[1argoholic]

My beer didn't even taste good watching that mess.

[ArgoZ]

My beer didn't even taste good watching that mess.
LOL! What brands were you drinking tonight?

[1argoholic]

Black Oak brewing Nut Brown out of Etobicoke. Time to put some tea on. haha

[Double Dare]

Milanovich is a useless piece of skin.

[paulwoods13]

My beer didn't even taste good watching that mess.

Maybe resolve not to post to this forum when drinking.

[AngeloV]

Milanovich is a useless piece of skin.

Nowhere near as useless of the majority of your posts.

[KCargosfan]

Milanovich is a useless piece of skin.

Is that why we are in first place?

[Ron]

My beer didn't even taste good watching that mess.

It's allegedly scientifically proven that when your mood is down ... you taste what the beer really tastes like.