T.O Grey Cup sold out

[Ballstothewall]

The Argo Prez on the Fan 590, this week, said the Grey Cup is sold out before the public sale even happens in June. He said he could have sold 80,000 tickets if he had them. Not bad, so much for the Simmons and Brunt's of the world, who wrote that the Grey Cup in T.O would not sellout and be a disaster

[jerrym]

Great news! Lets hope this augers well for attendance during the regular season.

[argotom]

The Argo Prez on the Fan 590, this week, said the Grey Cup is sold out before the public sale even happens in June. He said he could have sold 80,000 tickets if he had them. Not bad, so much for the Simmons and Brunt's of the world, who wrote that the Grey Cup in T.O would not sellout and be a disaster


Great news.
Of course, the likes of Brunt and Simmons as well as virtually everyone at Sportsnet, save and except Perry Lefko, will not mention this at all or barely in passing.

[paulwoods13]

Can someone please point me to a link showing that Brunt and Simmons ever wrote that the Grey Cup would not be a sellout and would be a disaster? As for them not mentioning (or barely in passing) that it has been successful, what are they going to do, ignore the event completely? Pretend no one showed up? When they write something nice about the Grey Cup, as they are certain to do (if you don't believe me, bookmark this thread and we can revisit it in eight months), will their kind words be conveniently ignored by the media bashers? Or will you damn them with faint praise by accusing them of being bandwagon jumpers?

[ArgoGabe22]

Its great news to hear its sold out but I hope its not because of scalpers who took advantage of the additional seats per season ticket. Then the real fan is left to pay big bucks to some scumbag.

[Ballstothewall]

Can someone please point me to a link showing that Brunt and Simmons ever wrote that the Grey Cup would not be a sellout and would be a disaster? As for them not mentioning (or barely in passing) that it has been successful, what are they going to do, ignore the event completely? Pretend no one showed up? When they write something nice about the Grey Cup, as they are certain to do (if you don't believe me, bookmark this thread and we can revisit it in eight months), will their kind words be conveniently ignored by the media bashers? Or will you damn them with faint praise by accusing them of being bandwagon jumpers?

Paul
All you had to do was watch sportsnet's coverage leading up to the Grey Cup in BC. Brunt was doing his 5 min, little take on the daily Grey Cup activities in BC and mentioned a number of times on AIR, how the next Grey Cup will be played in a city that No one cares about CFL football in and how the Grey Cup will be such a hard sell in T.O. This is the same guy, that said the NFL, Bill series will sell out in Days if not Hours. Bobcat rides him every time about his NFL predictions when ever he can on the Fan 590 and still won't admit he was wrong about it

[argotom]

Paul
All you had to do was watch sportsnet's coverage leading up to the Grey Cup in BC. Brunt was doing his 5 min, little take on the daily Grey Cup activities in BC and mentioned a number of times on AIR, how the next Grey Cup will be played in a city that No one cares about CFL football in and how the Grey Cup will be such a hard sell in T.O. This is the same guy, that said the NFL, Bill series will sell out in Days if not Hours. Bobcat rides him every time about his NFL predictions when ever he can on the Fan 590 and still won't admit he was wrong about it




You have to know the long history of the Toronto scribes especially Brunt and Simmons and their pure hate on the CFL and Argos and the love affair that is all NFL.
Enough said.

[RoRoYoBoat]

I refuse to let weak and spineless media wannabe's take any enjoyment away following my team. Most of them don't even understand the game CFL or NFL. They cover their lack of knowledge with ridicule.

[Invader]

Yep, Brunt dissed the last GC in Toronto saying the only thing that saved it was the Sask fans, without them it would have been a disaster. Brunt said recently that the GC isn't really that popular because the same 30,000 fans go to every GC no matter where it's being played. Brunt also claimed he had a "league source" which said the Argos were looking to relocate to London or to a "phantom" stadium in Mississauga because of the Bills in Toronto series. He repeated this claim multiple times in the Globe before they let him go.

[matthew]

so if this is true, does that mean that no member of the general public has access to the game now. I am pleased its sold out but with all the buzz the festival will create, I hope there will be some people that can gain access to the game potentially making some new fans.

[AngeloV]

You have to know the long history of the Toronto scribes especially Brunt and Simmons and their pure hate on the CFL and Argos and the love affair that is all NFL.
Enough said.

Pretty funny you would mention this. Yet IIRC, you were the first to take their pieces as gospel when they were dissing Cleo Lemon.

You can't have it both ways you k now. Either you respect their writings or you don't. You can't respect them when they agree with YOUR point of view and not respect then when they don't. Just seems a little hypocritical to me.

As for Brunt and Simmons predicting the game would be a hard sell and may be a failure, I did hear/read these comments. Don't have a link to prove it, but I do remember. I still have no problem with Brunt. I like him. As for Simmons......NOT.

[argotom]

Pretty funny you would mention this. Yet IIRC, you were the first to take their pieces as gospel when they were dissing Cleo Lemon.

You can't have it both ways you k now. Either you respect their writings or you don't. You can't respect them when they agree with YOUR point of view and not respect then when they don't. Just seems a little hypocritical to me.

As for Brunt and Simmons predicting the game would be a hard sell and may be a failure, I did hear/read these comments. Don't have a link to prove it, but I do remember. I still have no problem with Brunt. I like him. As for Simmons......NOT.


What does Cleo Lemon have to do with the fact that Brunt and Simmons and most of the Toronto media are NFL cheerleaders and hate the CFL?

[Nob]

The fact that the Grey Cup game is sold out is not a surprise, regardless of what any of the scribes say.

The test will be how much of an event the week is. Generally speaking a lot of the events get lost in Toronto, or are downplayed by how much else the city has to offer. I have to admit that Grey Cup week in BC was pretty big last year. I'm not sure that would have been the case if the Lions weren't in the game, but good for them.

How big will Grey Cup week in Toronto be if the game is Calgary versus Winnipeg? Toronto or Hamilton need to be in the game to help save the week, or so I think.

[paulwoods13]

You have to know the long history of the Toronto scribes especially Brunt and Simmons and their pure hate on the CFL and Argos and the love affair that is all NFL.
Enough said.

No, it's not enough said because some folks around here continue to make false allegations about journalists solely because it fits their own pattern of belief, not actual reality. Brunt and Simmons have NEVER said the 2012 Grey Cup would not sell out and would be a disaster. Some folks have decided those reporters hate the CFL and do nothing but take shots at it, but it is simply not true. They are commentators who give their opinions, some of which are unfavourable to the league and some of which are favourable. I know nothing I say is going to change any minds, but I'm going to continue to challenge statements that are false, and ask for those who make such statements to provide proof.


Yep, Brunt dissed the last GC in Toronto saying the only thing that saved it was the Sask fans, without them it would have been a disaster. Brunt said recently that the GC isn't really that popular because the same 30,000 fans go to every GC no matter where it's being played. Brunt also claimed he had a "league source" which said the Argos were looking to relocate to London or to a "phantom" stadium in Mississauga because of the Bills in Toronto series. He repeated this claim multiple times in the Globe before they let him go.

Here we go again. As I have asked before, what is your evidence that Brunt was "let go" by the Globe? The fact that he now has a different employer does not constitute such evidence, unless you believe that no one ever changes jobs of their own volition. Was Mark Spector "let go" by Postmedia? Was Pierre LeBrun "let go" by Hockey Night in Canada?

As for all the suggestion that 2007 Grey Cup would have been a disaster without Sask, do you seriously want to make a claim that the stands would have been packed without the Riders there, given the number of tickets that were originally sold in Toronto in the expectation that the home team would be in the game, and the massive local disappointment that followed the Argos' loss in the EF? (BTW, what happened five years ago has no bearing on this year -- the 2012 GC will be a massive success regardless of which teams are in it.)

As for this stuff about moving to London and Mississauga, etc., surely there must be a link somewhere to verify that he really reported it?

[argotom]

No, it's not enough said because some folks around here continue to make false allegations about journalists solely because it fits their own pattern of belief, not actual reality. Brunt and Simmons have NEVER said the 2012 Grey Cup would not sell out and would be a disaster. Some folks have decided those reporters hate the CFL and do nothing but take shots at it, but it is simply not true. They are commentators who give their opinions, some of which are unfavourable to the league and some of which are favourable. I know nothing I say is going to change any minds, but I'm going to continue to challenge statements that are false, and ask for those who make such statements to provide proof.

All you have to do is listen to Brunt when he co-hosts with McCown on Sportnsnet.
He is clearly anti CFL and very much a cheerleader for the NFL.
I am not sure what you are reading or hearing as clearly you must be drinking the kool aid if you think everything with these so called journalists is fine.
Listen to am radio, all sports Fan 590 and team 1050, enough said.
We the ones that have seen this for years, do not have an agenda.
This is the unfortunate and sad reality here in the city, and very much unheard of anywhere else in Canada.
No wonder Toronto and rightfully so is hated in the rest of the country as seen as elitest and wannabe.

[Ballstothewall]

No, it's not enough said because some folks around here continue to make false allegations about journalists solely because it fits their own pattern of belief, not actual reality. Brunt and Simmons have NEVER said the 2012 Grey Cup would not sell out and would be a disaster. Some folks have decided those reporters hate the CFL and do nothing but take shots at it, but it is simply not true. They are commentators who give their opinions, some of which are unfavourable to the league and some of which are favourable. I know nothing I say is going to change any minds, but I'm going to continue to challenge statements that are false, and ask for those who make such statements to provide proof.

Sorry Paul, but i did not record Sportsnet during last year Grey Cup, but enough people heard him make the comments. Your right, they are paid to make opinions. However people like myself are just asking for fairness. I find with writers like Brunt and Simmons, that the Argos and the CFL are held to a higher standard then other teams in this city. How come they never write about the Jays losing millions every year or that if MLSE did not own the Raptors, that they would have moved by now. Why when other teams print their announced attendance for a game, they never write the old," yeah but 10,000 of those fans were dressed as empty seats" only the Argos seem to get that treatment. Went to the TFC game Sat, they announced 18,000 perhaps they got 13,000 if they were lucky. Yet not ONE comment on the attendance number by the media, could it be because TFC is owned by MLSE. I'm forced to go to Raptors game sometimes for work and see thousands of empty seats, NEVER once have I seen anyone write about it. The only one that makes any comments about the Jays losing millions and empty seats at other T.O teams is Mcowan on the fan. My question is WHY?

[argotom]

I will never forget Brunt was co-hosting with McCown and proudly predicted how the Bills series would sellout in mere minutes over the phone.
McCown was skepitcal and afterwards on more then a few occasions has made fun of this cheerleader.

[Invader]

You usually don't have to read very far in Brunt's CFL articles to find some ridicule or slight against the league. The G&M has apparently deleted any evidence of Brunt from their archives. But here are few excerpts of his columns which fans have posted (and he has many, many more anti-CFL zingers over the years I can remember):

A Brunt and Naylor expose in G&M:

On Thursday, CFL governors gathered in Toronto for a secret meeting called by rookie commissioner Mark Cohon. The urgent gathering was called to deal with a subject that has dominated football talk across Canada for the past two weeks: How will the CFL handle what is an increasingly inevitable invasion of the NFL into Canada?

There is talk of the Toronto Argonauts trying to form a business relationship with a proposed NFL team. There is a suggestion of a spring-summer season for the CFL, which would culminate with the Grey Cup on Labour Day weekend to accommodate the NFL's September kickoff.

Coming up with smart, unified stands on complex issues has never been a strength of the CFL board of governors. And last week provided a glimpse into the challenges Cohon faces when B.C. Lions owner David Braley suggested fans in Western Canada might boycott Rogers products if Ted Rogers played a role in bringing an NFL team to Toronto — despite the fact Rogers is a major CFL sponsor. Meanwhile, others in the league suggested the Argos might survive a post-NFL world by moving to a phantom stadium in Mississauga.

In another Brunt column:

"...in the National Football League's eyes, any claim by the Canadian Football League or the Toronto Argonauts to territorial rights simply doesn't exist."

"No need, then, to give the CFL or the Argos a heads-up as to their plan. Both were absolutely blindsided by the news - news that will, as an unhappy, surely unintentional byproduct, go a long way toward undermining whatever happy vibes they might enjoy when the Grey Cup returns to the Big Smoke next month.

"...unless the Argo owners come up with some new rationale for losing money running a team in a market where they will eventually be squeezed out of existence" and that "the league is in big trouble, a sane person might be moved to throw the keys on the table and walk away".

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article792084.ece?service=mobile

[Deerkeeper]

If those quotes are anti CFL then I am the biggest NFL fan on the planet.

[ArgoGabe22]

I'm not a fan of Brunt either here's more articles. No wonder he hates the Argos he's from Hamilton!

http://www.sportsnet.ca/magazine/2011/11/02/brunt_fumbling_the_ball/

[AngeloV]

What does Cleo Lemon have to do with the fact that Brunt and Simmons and most of the Toronto media are NFL cheerleaders and hate the CFL?

Cleo Lemon has nothing to do with what I was trying to point out. It was just an example to back the point I was making was that you use examples of these writers to attempt to prove your points when they agree with you, yet call them idiots when they write things you don't agree with. You can't have it both ways. Either they are knowledgeable or idiots.

One thing I can't get reading some of the posts in this thread. How many of you actually believe that if Toronto had their own NFL team, every game would not sell out? I love the Argos and the CFL more than any other team or league in any sport, but not so much where I lie to myself and believe that the Bills in Toronto failure means that a Toronto NFL team wouldn't be a huge success. If I felt it wouldn't be a success, I would welcome a team with open arms. But I know that it would likely be a huge success and kill the Argos and the CFL.

So let's hear now how anti CFL I am.

[argolio]

While I agree that the NFL would be a huge success here and cripple the CFL, I don't know how long it would be successful, the Blue Jays and Raptors are a good example of how major league sports in Toronto can succeed exceptionally well, but within 10-15 years the wheels fall off.From an Argo fan point-of-view, if an NFL team proved fatal to the Argos, what difference would it make how successful it might be long-term?

Whatever one wants to say about the Jays and Raptors, they are protected because they're owned by a large corporate interest(s). The Argos don't have that luxury.

[1argoholic]

Grey Cup will be great it always is. F the fools who want to put it down.

[LLB997]

If this is the case, do i get my 100 dollar down payment back? lol. regardless if i score a ticket, this is great news.

[Ballstothewall]

One thing I can't get reading some of the posts in this thread. How many of you actually believe that if Toronto had their own NFL team, every game would not sell out? I love the Argos and the CFL more than any other team or league in any sport, but not so much where I lie to myself and believe that the Bills in Toronto failure means that a Toronto NFL team wouldn't be a huge success. If I felt it wouldn't be a success, I would welcome a team with open arms. But I know that it would likely be a huge success and kill the Argos and the CFL.

So let's hear now how anti CFL I am.



How do you know the NFL would be a great success here. Certainly not from the disaster that is the Bills games. which have lost millions. I say to you that thinking the NFL would be huge in T.0. is a mind set that the media has created here. Hence why they (Media) are baffled of why the games failed and now all the excuses are coming out about, like price and the Bills not being T.O team. Never heard any of these concerns when the games were original announced, only that they will sell out in days and have waiting list for ticket buyers in the 250,000 range. The issue is getting ALL football fans in T.O to support the Argos and Football in general.

[ticatfan]

Grey Cup will be great it always is. F the fools who want to put it down.

Amen! Looking forward to seeing you once again at GC

[argotom]

Cleo Lemon has nothing to do with what I was trying to point out. It was just an example to back the point I was making was that you use examples of these writers to attempt to prove your points when they agree with you, yet call them idiots when they write things you don't agree with. You can't have it both ways. Either they are knowledgeable or idiots.

I don't call them idiots or other names like you do.
I call them out for what they are wannabe NFL and anti CFL and Argos hacks.


How do you know the NFL would be a great success here. Certainly not from the disaster that is the Bills games. which have lost millions. I say to you that thinking the NFL would be huge in T.0. is a mind set that the media has created here. Hence why they (Media) are baffled of why the games failed and now all the excuses are coming out about, like price and the Bills not being T.O team. Never heard any of these concerns when the games were original announced, only that they will sell out in days and have waiting list for ticket buyers in the 250,000 range. The issue is getting ALL football fans in T.O to support the Argos and Football in general.


You know I am also starting to believe how any sporting team except the Leafs will not guarantee financial success or sellouts.
Brunt was not the only crazy guy that said tickets would be sold out in mere minutes during the Bills series.
Toronto overall is a bad sporting town, definitely wannabe and band wagon jumpers.
There is only one guarantee and that is the Leafs due to the stupidity of their "loyal fans" that in essence have caused the plight.

[RoRoYoBoat]

As Joe Rogan would say: "Sold out Bitches !":D

[LLB997]

interesting comments, Rogers are a bunch of chumps, i encourage all to boycott their products as often as possible.

[matchuk]

interesting comments, Rogers are a bunch of chumps, i encourage all to boycott their products as often as possible.

easier said then done thats for sure...as i sit here and surf on internet from rogers, and have the blues/sharks game playing, on rogers cable...oh, and i have my rogers serviced cell phone beside me here too

[argolio]

I don't call them idiots or other names like you do.
I call them out for what they are wannabe NFL and anti CFL and Argos hacks.Hacks, idiots, what's the difference?

And putting aside the fact that it's not a crime to have an opinion that turns out to be wrong, how is Brunt, a guy who supports the Ticats and attends Grey Cups, anti-CFL and an NFL wannabe? One might even go so far as to call that a hack-y conclusion.


How do you know the NFL would be a great success here. Certainly not from the disaster that is the Bills games. which have lost millions. I say to you that thinking the NFL would be huge in T.0. is a mind set that the media has created here. Hence why they (Media) are baffled of why the games failed and now all the excuses are coming out about, like price and the Bills not being T.O team. Never heard any of these concerns when the games were original announced, only that they will sell out in days and have waiting list for ticket buyers in the 250,000 range. The issue is getting ALL football fans in T.O to support the Argos and Football in general.No one really knows if it would be successful until and unless someone paid the $2B or so required to bring a team here, build a new stadium, and overcome any political hurdles. But if someone could pull that off (a big if to be sure), I think anyone would be incredibly naive to believe a permanent Toronto NFL team wouldn't be a guaranteed sell-out for at least the first five years, and I'd bet on ten.

[paulwoods13]

OK, I surrender. I've just become the one-billionth Internet poster to discover that it's pointless to enter into "debate" with people who are utterly convinced that their opinion -- in this case, that Brunt and Simmons are nothing but anti-CFL, pro-NFL co-conspirators -- is correct, regardless of whether there's any evidence to support it. So go on bashing those guys -- it seems to make some of you feel better, so I suppose there's at least some good coming out of it.

[Ballstothewall]

OK, I surrender. I've just become the one-billionth Internet poster to discover that it's pointless to enter into "debate" with people who are utterly convinced that their opinion -- in this case, that Brunt and Simmons are nothing but anti-CFL, pro-NFL co-conspirators -- is correct, regardless of whether there's any evidence to support it. So go on bashing those guys -- it seems to make some of you feel better, so I suppose there's at least some good coming out of it.

I don't think Brunt is anit CFL per say. i have talked to him many times. What i"m saying is he holds the CFL to a higher standard then the other leagues in his writtings. At times he takes a hard crtical look at the CFL, which is fine thats his job, however i don't think he does the same with the Raptors or TFC, in fact he has a love-in with TFC right now. A league by the way, that has owners who own more then 1 team in it. way before the Argo sistuation. A league that currently only has 3 teams making a profit, yet not one story on any of that stuff

[argotom]

I dare for someone to find and post one negative article from Brunt against the NFL or TFC(MLS).

[AngeloV]

I don't think Brunt is anit CFL per say. i have talked to him many times. What i"m saying is he holds the CFL to a higher standard then the other leagues in his writtings. At times he takes a hard crtical look at the CFL, which is fine thats his job, however i don't think he does the same with the Raptors or TFC, in fact he has a love-in with TFC right now. A league by the way, that has owners who own more then 1 team in it. way before the Argo sistuation. A league that currently only has 3 teams making a profit, yet not one story on any of that stuff

I think that the reason he doesn't take shots at TFC is because of the fact that they play in front of a full house every game. As soon as that stops, I'm sure he'll start writing about whether or not the league is viable in this market. Brunt has never taken shots about the excitement level and quality of play in the CFL. He has only questioned the relevence of it in Toronto, and with the (32,000 in the 100 and 200 level)stadium less than 2/3 full, it's hard to argue. We as diehards have all preached to people we know and work with to give the league a shot, and it doesn't seem to matter. Most people in this city don't care. They only seem to follow the hype that goes with multi millionaires.

[Invader]

OK, I surrender. I've just become the one-billionth Internet poster to discover that it's pointless to enter into "debate" with people who are utterly convinced that their opinion -- in this case, that Brunt and Simmons are nothing but anti-CFL, pro-NFL co-conspirators -- is correct, regardless of whether there's any evidence to support it. So go on bashing those guys -- it seems to make some of you feel better, so I suppose there's at least some good coming out of it.

I guess the point is that many of us read Brunt's columns and can remember what he has written. You want evidence, but the majority of his columns have been deleted from the internet, but they still live on in many of our memories.

Brunt is a good writer and I often think he's trying to be humorous by ridiculing the CFL. The league is often an easy target especially when compared to the NFL. It's a Canadian tradition, our national inferiority complex. We often criticize and belittle the success of others unless they make it big down south...then they're our heros. Brunt and many other writers feed off this insecurity.

Brunt has written many excellent sports columns and a recent one I read on SN was free of any innuendo against the CFL. But some of the things he's written in the past about the Argos...them going out of business, moving out off town, etc., were often viscous and spurious. But he is entitled to his opinion.

Brunt also repeats this same mantra on the national radio circuit, often spouting a string of unfavourable comments about the CFL...which he often claims to have some "inside" knowledge of. I had commented about two of his radio interviews I found particularly offensive (and another by Naylor) on the old Argos fan-site.

I don't have a problem with Simmons. He and the other Sun sports writers have to churn out the CFL copy (which they have obviously been directed to). Some of his columns are OK...others not so much, but perhaps he's trying to be controversial and show he's not a paid lap-dog with some of his more off-the-wall comments?

One Simmons column I remember was published during the last Grey Cup in Toronto, which listed the "Top Ten Things" which should be changed about the CFL (...or that he hated.) One suggestion was the end-zones should be reduced to 10 yards "because you shouldn't be able to run full pass patterns from the 10 yd line". Oh, boy...
:o

[R.J]

I think that the reason he doesn't take shots at TFC is because of the fact that they play in front of a full house every game. As soon as that stops, I'm sure he'll start writing about whether or not the league is viable in this market. Brunt has never taken shots about the excitement level and quality of play in the CFL. He has only questioned the relevence of it in Toronto, and with the (32,000 in the 100 and 200 level)stadium less than 2/3 full, it's hard to argue. We as diehards have all preached to people we know and work with to give the league a shot, and it doesn't seem to matter. Most people in this city don't care. They only seem to follow the hype that goes with multi millionaires.
Since adding the additional 1800 seats a couple of years ago, TFC has only sold out one game in the last 3 seasons (not including the Rogers Centre game) and wouldn't you know it David Beckham's LA Galaxy were in town for both sell outs. TFC like the Argos have been averaging under 20,000, yet its never talked about, even TFC fans are posting about it on their forum, yet no one in the Media is talking about how quickly they are becoming irrelevant and are having issues selling out now.

At least Macko brings it up.
http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/Fab5_041312.mp3

The problem with this whole debate is that it's highly unlikely anyone in the media will state or write that they hate the CFL, which from what I gather is what Paul is looking for.
Nevermind the Madani and Brunt 99th Grey Cup segment, or Brunt stating that the NFL has the top 100 QB's and the CFL has 101-120, or Brunt continually bringing up the irrelevance and how the CFL is dead in Toronto and yet never mentions TFC, Raps, or Blue Jays in the same sentence.

[Invader]

I think that the reason he doesn't take shots at TFC is because of the fact that they play in front of a full house every game. As soon as that stops, I'm sure he'll start writing about whether or not the league is viable in this market.

The company Brunt works for (Rogers/SN/City) owns TFC and they are contractually-bound (along with Bell/CTV/TSN) to cross-promote the TFC and Raptors on all their multi-media platforms.

I don't think TFC has sellouts anymore, so perhaps Brunt is free to criticize the MLS? For instance, the lousy attendance in most U.S. markets and the terrible TV ratings on ESPN and Fox?

[argotom]

Since adding the additional 1800 seats a couple of years ago, TFC has only sold out one game in the last 3 seasons (not including the Rogers Centre game) and wouldn't you know it David Beckham's LA Galaxy were in town for both sell outs. TFC like the Argos have been averaging under 20,000, yet its never talked about, even TFC fans are posting about it on their forum, yet no one in the Media is talking about how quickly they are becoming irrelevant and are having issues selling out now.

At least Macko brings it up.
http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/Fab5_041312.mp3


I am glad you mentioned it, because I was going to respond.
There are no more sellouts, in fact the last 2 home games that I watched some parts on TV had a stadium about one half full.
The one endzone was almost empty.
Crap soccer plus greed from MLSE in highking the prices will result in this irrelevancy.
But nowhere do you see Brunt writing about it.

[Ballstothewall]

I think that the reason he doesn't take shots at TFC is because of the fact that they play in front of a full house every game. As soon as that stops, I'm sure he'll start writing about whether or not the league is viable in this market. Brunt has never taken shots about the excitement level and quality of play in the CFL. He has only questioned the relevence of it in Toronto, and with the (32,000 in the 100 and 200 level)stadium less than 2/3 full, it's hard to argue. We ashttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ila-hAUXR5U&feature=relmfudiehards have all preached to people we know and work with to give the league a shot, and it doesn't seem to matter. Most people in this city don't care. They only seem to follow the hype that goes with multi millionaires.

AngeloV
You just provide my point. You think TFC stills sellouts and plays in front of a packed house. As some have pointed out here. TFC have sold out 1 game in the last few years at BMO. I was at last sat game. They claimed an announced attendance of 18,000, but to anyone who was there or watching on TV, its was closer to 13,000, but not one comment from the media types in T.O about that. Where was the yeah, but 6,000 of those fans were dress as empty seats comment" that the Argos always get. TFC and the Raptors have been playing in front of thousands of empty seats for the last few years, but yet no major media writes about it, and the average sports fan in T.O still thinks like you, that they are playing to full houses. Some TFC games get a TV rating of below 100,000, same with the Raptors. If the Argos ever got that low a TV rating, guys like Brunt and Simmons would put it on the front page of the sports section

[paulwoods13]

Here's the thing -- the best evidence that has been offered for an "anti-CFL slant" by Brunt et al are either people's "memories" or a tiny handful of examples. Brunt wrote probably 150 columns a year when he was at the Globe, Simmons writes probably 150-200 for the Sun. Of course from such output there will be phrases and even entire columns critical of a team or a league. To suggest that Brunt and Simmons never criticize the Raptors, TFC, Blue Jays or the NFL while always knocking the Argos and the CFL is simply far from reality. You could not be a credible journalist/sports commentator if you turned your guns continually on one organization while giving a free ride to everyone else in town. To think otherwise is to be blinded by love of the CFL to the realities of journalism.

As for the potentially slanderous suggestion that Brunt was "let go" by the Globe, I'm still waiting for Invader to either provide evidence or retract it.

[R.J]

Here's the thing -- the best evidence that has been offered for an "anti-CFL slant" by Brunt et al are either people's "memories" or a tiny handful of examples. Brunt wrote probably 150 columns a year when he was at the Globe, Simmons writes probably 150-200 for the Sun. Of course from such output there will be phrases and even entire columns critical of a team or a league. To suggest that Brunt and Simmons never criticize the Raptors, TFC, Blue Jays or the NFL while always knocking the Argos and the CFL is simply far from reality. You could not be a credible journalist/sports commentator if you turned your guns continually on one organization while giving a free ride to everyone else in town. To think otherwise is to be blinded by love of the CFL to the realities of journalism.

As for the potentially slanderous suggestion that Brunt was "let go" by the Globe, I'm still waiting for Invader to either provide evidence or retract it.
Paul please provide proof that Brunt has been critical of The Raps, TFC, Blue Jays, and NFL. Or are you just basing this on "memory" as well ?

[T-Bone]

Paul please provide proof that Brunt has been critical of The Raps, TFC, Blue Jays, and NFL. Or are you just basing this on "memory" as well ?Paul didn't make the accusation, it is not Paul's place to prove it. The burden proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof) falls to the accuser.

[Mulder]

I've never been the one to follow trends, go with the popular crowd, nor believe or care what people, especially sports writer's opinion is. I form my own.

It's the media's job to write articles that sometimes will 'rub people the wrong way' and get a reaction. It's like that old bully at school. If he gets a reaction, he'll keep doing it. But if he gets no response he'll move on. These types of people are well aware how sensitive some CFL fans are.

[Ballstothewall]

The sky is falling in the CFL.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36625003001/40223747001/Turmoil-in-CFL-heirarchy/page/3

At least we got a good discussion going. I find it interesting, that in the whole 5 min report, not 1 positive mention about the league or the game. Since this report, the commissioner has resigned and Sportsnet is now very Interested in bidding for the CFL rights. Tv ratings did drop last year, but the CFL still remained the 2 sports property regarding TV rating in Canada, did they mention that part NO. If you knew nothing about the CFL and watched that report, you would think the league is folding

[T-Bone]

Have you not read Paul posts ?
or for that matter actually read what the burden of proof is before posting it ?
In a debate each side has to prove there points, while Paul has claimed that "Brunt wrote probably 150 columns a year when he was at the Globe, Simmons writes probably 150-200 for the Sun. Of course from such output there will be phrases and even entire columns critical of a team or a league. To suggest that Brunt and Simmons never criticize the Raptors, TFC, Blue Jays or the NFL while always knocking the Argos and the CFL is simply far from reality. You could not be a credible journalist/sports commentator if you turned your guns continually on one organization while giving a free ride to everyone else in town." is this not a claim ? am I missing something ?
Debates can't just be one side bringing up points and the other side saying "no your wrong". Then its not a debate just people bickering.
The person that made the accusation has provided no evidence that I can see to back his position and until then it's just an accusation. Paul has asked for proof and technically doesn't have to defend his position (though he has and should provide evidence for the claim) until that proof is provided so the debate is over. If I say "I can fly!" you say "Prove it!" the burden of proof falls to me to prove it to you as I made the statement.


Debates can't just be one side bringing up points and the other side saying "no your wrong". Then its not a debate just people bickering.
Bickering is exactly what this is currently.

[Ballstothewall]

I agree Mulder, the media in general nowadays works like this, even in Winnipeg the fans are starting to get P.O'd by all the negative articles about the football team this off season, I should point out that some of those writers have taken some heat on twitter.

The problem though is that in this market, it always seems to be doom and gloom for the Argos, yet nothing about the Raps or TFC attendance issues are being brought up in comparison. As an example, the fact that MLSE dropped all Raps tickets from 15-30 % or having major issues selling boxes is never brought up.
At least the Leafs in terms of on ice performance have negative articles written about them, while the Raps were expected to flop this year, the only exception to a poking fun at the Raps or a negative article, was when the fans cheered because they received a free pizza slice, yet nothing about how the in the past 4 years the Raps have only recorded 1 official sellout (the Jeremy Lin game).

The Argos announced attendance was 18-20,000, yet Rudge brought up how towards the end it was around 15,000, yet TFC has from 12-15,000 actually attending their games and it's announced as 18-20,000 and yet no one brings that up, its ridiculous IMO.

All good points.You and I are on the same page. We are just looking for fairness in the reporting, thats all!!!

[Invader]

Brunt and Simmons have NEVER said the 2012 Grey Cup would not sell out and would be a disaster.

As per the Brunt/Madani Grey Cup "Turmoil in CFL" Report on SN:

"The Grey Cup looms in Toronto but the CFL couldn't be more non-existent than it is right now."

"I can't remember in my lifetime when the CFL was as invisible in the biggest market in the country as it is right now. Attendance was miniscule..."

"With the 100th Grey Cup coming, they're trying to put on a big show on in Toronto, but right now you can hear the crickets chirping in the background, there's not a lot of interest in the CFL."

http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36625003001/40223747001/Turmoil-in-CFL-heirarchy/page/3

[R.J]

"With the 100th Grey Cup coming, they're trying to put on a big show on in Toronto, but right now you can hear the crickets chirping in the background, there's not a lot of interest in the CFL."

http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36625003001/40223747001/Turmoil-in-CFL-heirarchy/page/3
I'd like to point out that even when that segment was taped 18,000 deposits were paid for within that 100 hour "pre-sale" and sales over here in the GTA at the same time were over 20,000. Yet some how no mention of that and somehow 38,000 pre-sale deposits (70% are GTA sales) means crickets chirping ?

[ArgoRavi]

I don't think Brunt is anit CFL per say. i have talked to him many times. What i"m saying is he holds the CFL to a higher standard then the other leagues in his writtings. At times he takes a hard crtical look at the CFL, which is fine thats his job, however i don't think he does the same with the Raptors or TFC, in fact he has a love-in with TFC right now. A league by the way, that has owners who own more then 1 team in it. way before the Argo sistuation. A league that currently only has 3 teams making a profit, yet not one story on any of that stuff

I have found this to be a compelling discussion as I have been reading it over the last few days. I think that flutie02 has hit the nail on the head right here. I have been waiting for the last couple of years for the media to address the fragile attendance of TFC and the declining attendance of the Raptors and have seen or heard precious little. Even less is said within the Toronto media of the woeful TV ratings of both of these teams. Yet, when the CFL's ratings decline a bit for the first time in a few years, some in the media can't fall over each other fast enough to report this.

Tone is a difficult thing to measure but I think that what some have detected in recent years from Brunt is simply a more negative tone towards the CFL that he doesn't necessarily display to the same degree towards other leagues or sports. I too don't believe that he is "anti-CFL" but it does seem as though he looks for the negatives more with the CFL than he does with a lot of the other sports that he covers. Steve Simmons, for as long as I can remember, has always had such a tone but he continues to be interested in the CFL even if he may not want to be.


I'd like to point out that even when that segment was taped 18,000 deposits were paid for within that 100 hour "pre-sale" and sales over here in the GTA at the same time were over 20,000. Yet some how no mention of that and somehow 38,000 pre-sale deposits (70% are GTA sales) means crickets chirping ?

I am also pretty sure at that time that the CBC had already made it known that they were interested in getting into the bidding for CFL games again so their report would not have even been factual regarding that information.

[AngeloV]

AngeloV
You just provide my point. You think TFC stills sellouts and plays in front of a packed house. As some have pointed out here. TFC have sold out 1 game in the last few years at BMO. I was at last sat game. They claimed an announced attendance of 18,000, but to anyone who was there or watching on TV, its was closer to 13,000, but not one comment from the media types in T.O about that. Where was the yeah, but 6,000 of those fans were dress as empty seats comment" that the Argos always get. TFC and the Raptors have been playing in front of thousands of empty seats for the last few years, but yet no major media writes about it, and the average sports fan in T.O still thinks like you, that they are playing to full houses. Some TFC games get a TV rating of below 100,000, same with the Raptors. If the Argos ever got that low a TV rating, guys like Brunt and Simmons would put it on the front page of the sports section

I guess I'm a little out of touch, but glad to hear this. I stated on this and the previous forums that TFC was a bit of a fad and would slowly start to go away. I just wasn't aware that it was already happening.

Whatever I have posted in this thread, please don't take it as if I'm not All Argos, All the time. I just feel that sometimes (and I have been guilty of this in the past) when Argos business isn't going well, we get way too much into defensive mode. I too, don't like most of the writers in the city and have mentioned it many times on here. I just think Brunt gets unfairly attacked. He is a big CFL fan, and has never put down the product on the field. I see his statements which have been hi-lighted in this thread, more as a shot at Torontonians and their indifferent attitudes toward the CFL, than as a shot at the CFL.

[paulwoods13]

I've asked Paul to prove his point now. He states that we're wrong and yet again "To suggest that Brunt and Simmons never criticize the Raptors, TFC, Blue Jays or the NFL while always knocking the Argos and the CFL is simply far from reality. You could not be a credible journalist/sports commentator if you turned your guns continually on one organization while giving a free ride to everyone else in town.", all I'm asking is that he proves this claim, if you don't understand this or again what burden of proof actually means, that's not my problem.

OK, I can turn the tables, too. Disprove my claim. Nyah-nyah. That's how silly this has become.

Regardless of what I or anyone else thinks, the Brunt-Simmons bashers aren't going to stop bashing. If they write something "negative," it will be "See, more proof that they hate the CFL." If they write something "positive," it will be "They're doing that only to enhance the illusion that they're objective." If they write something that is neither "positive" nor "negative," it will be declared to be negative, as happened earlier in this thread. This argument has raged several times on this forum and its predecessors and (shockingly) no one has changed their opinion.

[Nob]

I'm not going to take any sides on the Brunt - Simmons debate, but we also have to take a bit of a dose of reality here. There have been several instances over the last 15 years, if not longer, where the Argos gave the CFL-bashers plenty of ammo.

Granted there have been some very good things that happened and the Argos didn't get the credit that they deserved. I think of the Flutie years as an example. However I think that the many years of shooting themselves in the foot really hurt them when they did something really well, and cost them the goodwill that they should have earned.

However, through it all there has always been the die-hard core group that have stuck through it all. Those are fans. True fans. Real fans. Not the fads that we see with TFC, the Raptors, and the Jays.

[Mulder]

I guess I'm a little out of touch, but glad to hear this. I stated on this and the previous forums that TFC was a bit of a fad and would slowly start to go away. I just wasn't aware that it was already happening.

Been happening the last 2 seasons. Maybe even 3. At first people complaining that they were having a hard time selling their extra season tickets, then come last season season they had a hard time giving them away, posts about empty seats popping up on fan forums. Thus far, TFC's start hasn't helped anything. now they have started selling 'flex packs', which some say is a sign of a hard to sell team. From what I've also read, attendance seemed way below announced for their home games thus far. MLS counts tickets distributed and not people in the stadium. I'm not crapping on the team, I've actually started to follow the team more regularly, and catch a game on the TV if TFC isn't losing. But it has to be noted that most everyone here and elsewhere knew it would be a fad, and attendance will probably settle somewhere in the 14,000-17,000 range over the next few seasons, especially if they still suck.

I noted to myself they never actually filled up the stadium when they first built the north end stands.

[T-Bone]

You've lost me yet again T-bone, this along with your freedom of speech theory, I just don't agree with nor even understand your point.
Not only have there been multiple links posted to prove our points on the negative media here in Toronto, but I've asked Paul to prove his point now. He states that we're wrong and yet again "To suggest that Brunt and Simmons never criticize the Raptors, TFC, Blue Jays or the NFL while always knocking the Argos and the CFL is simply far from reality. You could not be a credible journalist/sports commentator if you turned your guns continually on one organization while giving a free ride to everyone else in town.", all I'm asking is that he proves this claim, if you don't understand this or again what burden of proof actually means, that's not my problem.
My apologies SnowRogue I was focusing on the wrong part of paulwoods13's post:


As for the potentially slanderous suggestion that Brunt was "let go" by the Globe, I'm still waiting for Invader to either provide evidence or retract it.
The burden of proof lies with Invader to prove this.


OK, I can turn the tables, too. Disprove my claim. Nyah-nyah. That's how silly this has become.

Regardless of what I or anyone else thinks, the Brunt-Simmons bashers aren't going to stop bashing. If they write something "negative," it will be "See, more proof that they hate the CFL." If they write something "positive," it will be "They're doing that only to enhance the illusion that they're objective." If they write something that is neither "positive" nor "negative," it will be declared to be negative, as happened earlier in this thread. This argument has raged several times on this forum and its predecessors and (shockingly) no one has changed their opinion.
Actually paulwoods13, SnowRouge is right. I have gone threw this thread again and many examples have been provided along with a few links. The burden of proof now lies with you to prove your claim.


I'm not going to take any sides on the Brunt - Simmons debate, but we also have to take a bit of a dose of reality here. There have been several instances over the last 15 years, if not longer, where the Argos gave the CFL-bashers plenty of ammo.

Granted there have been some very good things that happened and the Argos didn't get the credit that they deserved. I think of the Flutie years as an example. However I think that the many years of shooting themselves in the foot really hurt them when they did something really well, and cost them the goodwill that they should have earned.

However, through it all there has always been the die-hard core group that have stuck through it all. Those are fans. True fans. Real fans. Not the fads that we see with TFC, the Raptors, and the Jays.
First how do you measure true, real fans? I find it hard to believe that only the Argos have true, real fans and that TFC, the Raptors and the Jays don't. I don't know how you would be able to get an accurate number of true, real fans though for each team. I've said it before Argos fans and TFC fans are equally passionate about their respective teams and more similar then either side would like to admit. However if you want to test your theory I recommend you go to BMO Field for a TFC game and get a ticket in one section between 110-114. Then let those people know that they are just a fad, not true or real fans and let me know how it goes.

[1argoholic]

As to Mulders comments about sports reporters rubbing some people the wrong way. I've always thought that Simmons was into that.

[Ballstothewall]

As to Mulders comments about sports reporters rubbing some people the wrong way. I've always thought that Simmons was into that.

Nice one Mark!!!

[paulwoods13]

My apologies SnowRogue I was focusing on the wrong part of paulwoods13's post:


The burden of proof lies with Invader to prove this.


Actually paulwoods13, SnowRouge is right. I have gone threw this thread again and many examples have been provided along with a few links. The burden of proof now lies with you to prove your claim.



Just so I'm clear, the only remaining "burdens of proof" are now on invader to prove his claim that Brunt was "let go" by the Globe, and on me to prove my claim that Brunt/Simmons have written negative comments about sports other than the CFL, and positive comments about the CFL? And all other claims in this thread, such as the suggestion that Brunt and Simmons are only ever negative about the CFL, are deemed to have been "proven" by the links/examples provided to date?

[T-Bone]

Just so I'm clear, the only remaining "burdens of proof" are now on invader to prove his claim that Brunt was "let go" by the Globe, and on me to prove my claim that Brunt/Simmons have written negative comments about sports other than the CFL, and positive comments about the CFL? Correct.


And all other claims in this thread, such as the suggestion that Brunt and Simmons are only ever negative about the CFL, are deemed to have been "proven" by the links/examples provided to date?
The links and examples support the argument being presented. You have not provided any links or examples in your counterclaim so the other argument is currently stronger not 100% proven.

[argotom]

I'm not asking for positive comments about the CFL, its the negative on the NFL, TFC, Raps etc on Brunts part, I have read articles where Simmons has been critical of other sports even the NFL, I still don't like Simmons as a writer, but he has proven me wrong. Brunt however hasn't done so at least from everything I have seen, yes he has written solid articles on the CFL, my personal favourite is his article and video on Ivor Wynne, the only reason I had asked you to prove your claim Paul, is because I still haven't read an article or seen a video segment where he has been critical or negative towards TFC, the Raps, the NFL or even the NFL in Toronto Series.


These two writers not only are over the top negative on the CFL, what makes it even worse is their blatent cheerleading for the NFL.

[argolio]

The company Brunt works for (Rogers/SN/City) owns TFC and they are contractually-bound (along with Bell/CTV/TSN) to cross-promote the TFC and Raptors on all their multi-media platforms.I think there's something to that, meaning the mass corporatization of pro sports and how broadcasters cover the teams of their employers.

A case in point is Damien Cox. Over the last few years, he has made a number of disparaging comments about baseball. Once he left TSN and signed on with Sportsnet, he not only stopped those comments, but he actually covered the Jays at spring training.


We as diehards have all preached to people we know and work with to give the league a shot, and it doesn't seem to matter. Most people in this city don't care. They only seem to follow the hype that goes with multi millionaires.Assuming that to be true (and I'm not saying it's not), the only surefire way to increase the hype would be for the CFL to undergo not just steady growth but rapid growth. But then if the CFL ever got to the stage where it could offer a lot of million dollar contracts, it wouldn't be the CFL we all know and love any more.

[paulwoods13]

These two writers not only are over the top negative on the CFL, what makes it even worse is their blatent cheerleading for the NFL.

This appears to prove my main point. "Evidence" be damned, people like argotom and invader will persist in believing that these two journalists are anti-CFL/pro-NFL.

To "prove" whether or not this is true would require a rigourous academic study of everything they have written over "x" period of time (one year? five years? 10 years?), with agreed-on definitions of what constitutes "positive," negative" and "neutral" comments about the CFL and the NFL. If some academic were inclined to take this up it would be pretty illuminating. My opinion is that it would show that both guys write a lot of stuff that could fall into all three of those categories about both leagues as well as the other subjects they write about. Others presumably have the opinion that such a study would show that they overwhelmingly write positive comments about the NFL and negative comments about the CFL. Unless someone actually does such a study (which is extremely unlikely), we're all left to cling to our current opinions.

It would cost money to review the lion's share of Brunt's career output because his work for the Globe is hidden behind a paywall. Many but not all of Simmons' columns are archived on slam sports but the collection seems to go back only as far as last October, not a very large sample size (and most of them are about sports other than football). So no one (including me) on this forum is in a position to credibly support their arguments. I don't agree with T-Bone that the examples offered so far in support of the hypothesis that Simmons/Brunt are pro-NFL/anti-CFL actually do support that hypothesis, but that's my opinion.

[T-Bone]

This appears to prove my main point. "Evidence" be damned, people like argotom and invader will persist in believing that these two journalists are anti-CFL/pro-NFL.

To "prove" whether or not this is true would require a rigourous academic study of everything they have written over "x" period of time (one year? five years? 10 years?), with agreed-on definitions of what constitutes "positive," negative" and "neutral" comments about the CFL and the NFL. If some academic were inclined to take this up it would be pretty illuminating. My opinion is that it would show that both guys write a lot of stuff that could fall into all three of those categories about both leagues as well as the other subjects they write about. Others presumably have the opinion that such a study would show that they overwhelmingly write positive comments about the NFL and negative comments about the CFL. Unless someone actually does such a study (which is extremely unlikely), we're all left to cling to our current opinions.

It would cost money to review the lion's share of Brunt's career output because his work for the Globe is hidden behind a paywall. Many but not all of Simmons' columns are archived on slam sports but the collection seems to go back only as far as last October, not a very large sample size (and most of them are about sports other than football). So no one (including me) on this forum is in a position to credibly support their arguments. I don't agree with T-Bone that the examples offered so far in support of the hypothesis that Simmons/Brunt are pro-NFL/anti-CFL actually do support that hypothesis, but that's my opinion.
I agree with you that I would need to see more of this writers work to come to a final conclusion but I can also see the argument being presented in this thread from the examples being provided. However you are also correct that some of the examples can be subjective. One comment may read as negative to someone and not to another person. However you could provide an example that SnowRouge requested to strengthen your counterargument. Like Mulder I don't really care about sports writers articles all that much as much of sports writing is opinion based anyway. I know many TFC fans have been complaining about this guy (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/1161834--kelly-toronto-fc-blanked-by-chivas-1-0) for years now. I guess you could say Kelly's articles go against this:


The problem though is that in this market, it always seems to be doom and gloom for the Argos, yet nothing about the Raps or TFC attendance issues are being brought up in comparison.
When it comes to TFC.


The company Brunt works for (Rogers/SN/City) owns TFC and they are contractually-bound (along with Bell/CTV/TSN) to cross-promote the TFC and Raptors on all their multi-media platforms.

I don't think TFC has sellouts anymore, so perhaps Brunt is free to criticize the MLS? For instance, the lousy attendance in most U.S. markets and the terrible TV ratings on ESPN and Fox?


I think there's something to that, meaning the mass corporatization of pro sports and how broadcasters cover the teams of their employers.

A case in point is Damien Cox. Over the last few years, he has made a number is disparaging comments about baseball. Once he left TSN and signed on with Sportsnet, he not only stopped those comments, but he actually covered the Jays at spring training.
Does that apply to Brunt though? The Rogers/Bell purchase of MLSE happened recently and the claim being made here is that Brunt has always been negative about the Argos but not TFC, the Raptors or the NFL. Why was he not negative about those things before the Rogers/Bell purchase of MLSE or before he worked for Sportsnet?

[Mulder]

Cathal Kelly used to write negative stuff about the argos as well (still does from time to time)

[argotom]

This appears to prove my main point. "Evidence" be damned, people like argotom and invader will persist in believing that these two journalists are anti-CFL/pro-NFL.

To "prove" whether or not this is true would require a rigourous academic study of everything they have written over "x" period of time (one year? five years? 10 years?), with agreed-on definitions of what constitutes "positive," negative" and "neutral" comments about the CFL and the NFL. If some academic were inclined to take this up it would be pretty illuminating. My opinion is that it would show that both guys write a lot of stuff that could fall into all three of those categories about both leagues as well as the other subjects they write about. Others presumably have the opinion that such a study would show that they overwhelmingly write positive comments about the NFL and negative comments about the CFL. Unless someone actually does such a study (which is extremely unlikely), we're all left to cling to our current opinions.

It would cost money to review the lion's share of Brunt's career output because his work for the Globe is hidden behind a paywall. Many but not all of Simmons' columns are archived on slam sports but the collection seems to go back only as far as last October, not a very large sample size (and most of them are about sports other than football). So no one (including me) on this forum is in a position to credibly support their arguments. I don't agree with T-Bone that the examples offered so far in support of the hypothesis that Simmons/Brunt are pro-NFL/anti-CFL actually do support that hypothesis, but that's my opinion.



No one is talking revisionist history here.
"Just the facts ma'am".
All one has to do is take in Sportsnet or Fan 590 when Brunt is cohosting with McCown and listen to his diarrhea and the love in for the TFC and NFL in particular, while conversly the hate on for the CFL.

[R.J]

That article about TFC is just stating that the losing and crapping out, nothing about the lack of sell-outs or the irrelevancy of TFC or Soccer in the GTA, unlike how Brunt and others continually bring up with the Argos.

[T-Bone]

That article about TFC is just stating that the losing and crapping out, nothing about the lack of sell-outs or the irrelevancy of TFC or Soccer in the GTA, unlike how Brunt and others continually bring up with the Argos.
I was referencing that quote more for the "doom and gloom" part then the attendance issue specifically. Either way it seems like many TFC fans see Cathal Kelly's views towards TFC the same way some of you see Brunt's views regarding the Argos.

[1argoholic]

Way to much TFC talk on this site.

[LLB997]

Way to much TFC talk on this site.


i agree, let's focus on the boatmen in the Double Blue Room

[R.J]

Completely forgot about this.
http://www.13thman.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33144&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[T-Bone]

i agree, let's focus on the boatmen in the Double Blue Room
Some how people always start making comparisons between the two teams and I didn't start it for the record.

[AngeloV]

Way to much TFC talk on this site.

Well, I once started a thread about this, but was then called a Nazi.:eek:


Completely forgot about this.
http://www.13thman.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33144&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Thanks for posting the link. I had forgotten about it. Man did AT take a beating in that one. LOL!!!

[ArgoRavi]

Completely forgot about this.
http://www.13thman.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33144&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

13thman.com used to be hopping back in those days before everyone went back to the comfort of their own teams' fan forums. That thread came on the heels of the announcement of the Bills in Toronto series which some thought would lead to the inevitable relocation of the Bills to Toronto.

[AngeloV]

Also from that thread on 13thman...a great post by the late greycupgarry:

by greycupgarry » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:09 am

Just read this thread. I've never heard Brunt being anti CFL. Except for the obvious. Things we discuss ourselves t the Tailgates and bars, etc. Pro NFL? Same thing. Nobody can argue they have the best athletes in Pro-football. Not the best product and entertainment IMO, but it's football. I really enjoyed the Guelph/Laurier game on Saturday as well. But to say it is better than NCAA1 would be laughable. Does that make me anti CIS? Brunt IMO opinion is just stating the obvious when he talks NFL. Especially about it coming to Toronto. It would be huge to a large NFL fanbase.

I love the CFL. But, hey. Many bartenders still look at me like I'm from mars when I ask them to turn the poker off and put the CFL game on. It's a fact of life here in Canada. So don't blame it on one writer.

We all had respect for GGG, and IMO he was bang on here.

[argolio]

Thanks for posting the link. I had forgotten about it. Man did AT take a beating in that one. LOL!!!He got beaten down worse than when Frankie Williams got destroyed by Roddy Piper.

[KCargosfan]

He got beaten down worse than when Frankie Williams got destroyed by Roddy Piper.

Haha, best movie fight scene ever, and most realistic!


Also from that thread on 13thman...a great post by the late greycupgarry:

by greycupgarry » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:09 am


We all had respect for GGG, and IMO he was bang on here.

Agreed that was a great post. Where is Tighthead at? We could use him on this board.

[AngeloV]

He got beaten down worse than when Frankie Williams got destroyed by Roddy Piper.

LMFAO!!! Tied for best Piper's Pit ever along with Jimmy Snuka and the coconuts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo_QrixLSSc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZbZseTuQ1I

[R.J]

IMO the only thing flutie02 and I are continually bringing up is the perception of the CFL, and how the media focus' more on the off field situations on the CFL than other sports here in Toronto.

I would like to also bring up that if you go to a bar in the West or even MTL nowadays, odds are a CFL game will already be on the tube, no poker or even the "Godly" NFL.

I'd like to see Hogie "comeback" to this forum, sad that he left the old one, always enjoyed reading his posts.

[AngeloV]

IMO the only thing flutie02 and I are continually bringing up is the perception of the CFL, and how the media focus' more on the off field situations on the CFL than other sports here in Toronto.

I would like to also bring up that if you go to a bar in the West or even MTL nowadays, odds are a CFL game will already be on the tube, no poker or even the "Godly" NFL.

That's fine and dandy, but GGG wasn't talking about the West or MTL. He was talking about Toronto and in the 5 years since that was posted, sadly things haven't changed.

[LLB997]

wow, first time seeing that 13thman thread. Who is this Invader guy, he tore hoagie a new one.

[R.J]

These are my favourite posts from the old thread.

Mike Hogan wrote:Trust me, more media types in the city like/love the CFL than don't....certainly the ones I know in the electronic media.

Proof?

Mike Hogan, Don Landry, Chris Schultz, Bob McCown, Stephen Brunt, Rick Ralph, Barb Diguilio, Dan Dunleavy, Sarah Buchan, David Alter, Roger Lajoie, Howard Berger, Doug Faraway, Alex Seixeiro, Pete Martin, Adrion Smith, David Bastl, RJ Broadhead, Gerry Dobson, Rob Faulds, Brad Fay, Jim Lang, Perry Lefko, Peter Loubardias, Darren Millard, Greg Ross, Mike Toth, Rod Black, Jock Climie, Chris Cuthbert, Darren Dreger, Matt Dunigan, Darren Dutchyshen, James Duthie, Sheri Forde, Michael Landsberg, Dan Pollard, Dave Randorf, Vic Rauter, Rod Smith, Cory Woron and Brian Smith are all broadcasters based in Toronto who either like or love the CFL. I could certainly hold a conversation with any of them and they'd know what's going on....and that's just three outlets.



Argosfan wrote : Hogie:

It's great that all these people like the CFL. But how many of them would be prepared to discuss the impact of Mike Pearson's injury on the Eastern Final? Certainly not all of them could. But I bet that every one of them could explain the impact of Marvin Harrison's injury on that Colts-Pats game.

The point I want to make is this: Show me a Canadian sports fan who has no interest in the CFL, and I'll show you somebody who has a lack of knowledge about the CFL. For sure the League itself is partly to blame for not getting their message out for, I dunno, the last 30 years or so. But surely the Canadian sports media should shoulder some of the blame for not educating Canadians well enough about the merits of this great game. Nobody, outside of fanatics like argotom, expects the media to be cheerleaders for the CFL. But I think we have the right to expect the Canadian sports media to be on top of all the ins and outs of this Canadian game, and, sadly, this is not the case.

For example, how often do we hear people say that they don't follow the CFL because the players are NFL rejects who are vastly inferior to those playing south of the border. Hogie, you and I both know that this isn't true, that it's mostly luck and circumstance that makes some players fall through the cracks of the NFL and onto CFL rosters. What did Jeff Garcia say, that the difference between NFL and CFL players at certain positions is negligible.

So how come we never hear any Canadian sports journalists talking about the relative merits of the CFL compared to the NFL athlete? How come we never hear (outside your program) about how these fine CIS athletes, local boys, hold their own in the CFL against players from the big NCAA football factories? If the Canadian sports media told these stories in depth and in detail, educating the Canadian public about this game and its players, I guarantee there'd be a lot more interest in the CFL.

So it's more than liking the CFL. We need the sports media in general to be better educated about the CFL, so that they can better educate the public about it.

by Mike Hogan » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:32 am
Argosfan wrote : Hogie:

It's great that all these people like the CFL. But how many of them would be prepared to discuss the impact of Mike Pearson's injury on the Eastern Final? Certainly not all of them could. But I bet that every one of them could explain the impact of Marvin Harrison's injury on that Colts-Pats game.



Mike Hogan wrote: I agree.

Every one of them could talk about the play of Michael Bishop...yet if you asked some of them who Nick Kaczur is, they'd stare blankly.

It's easy to discuss the skill positions in football. The name "Mike Pearson" was probably not even known by some CFL diehards...such is the anonymity of the O-line.

When I listed those people I picked ones that would watch a game and enjoy doing so. They're not "anti-CFL" as has been suggested over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Should there be more CFL coverage? Yes. The ratings justify it.

Is there an anti-CFL message in the Toronto media? Maybe in the Sun, that's about it.
Could someone help me out though ?
IMO out of all the newspapers in the GTA, the Sun IMO provides the most CFL content, was it that bad 5 years ago ?
I really can't remember.

[ArgoRavi]

These are my favourite posts from the old thread.


Could someone help me out though ?
IMO out of all the newspapers in the GTA, the Sun IMO provides the most CFL content, was it that bad 5 years ago ?
I really can't remember.

Remember that Paul (Mr. NFL) Godfrey was the publisher of the Sun for many years and his pro-NFL, anti-CFL stance seemed to trickle down to much of the sports department of that paper (Jim Hunt and George Gross - both now deceased - being notable exceptions). Godfrey left the Sun and went on his reign of error with the Jays around 2000 IIRC so things had probably improved somewhat by '07 but his impact was likely felt for several years, even after his departure.

[LLB997]

I laughed when i read him say that Roger Lajoie is CFL friendly. He happened to be on the fan the last time the bills played in TO and was taking calls. I was out shopping and had the fan on in the car. he took 3 calls in a row, 2 guys said they scored freebies and were more into the CFL, And the 3rd said he could care less about football, Hockey is where its at. You could actually feel his frustration as he went on saying "regardless of the last few callers, this is a big deal blah blah blah....

[AngeloV]

Could someone help me out though ?
IMO out of all the newspapers in the GTA, the Sun IMO provides the most CFL content, was it that bad 5 years ago ?
I really can't remember.

Rick Matsumoto was still covering the Argos for the Star and they definitely had much better (friendlier?) coverage of the Argos at that time. Things really have changed since then. My only problem today with the Sun is that they still have guys covering the team that know nothing about football. Koshan and Zeisberger are hockey writers, and in 20+ years, I still have no idea what Ziccarelli is. Simmons in negative about everything...not just the CFL. In fact, I think Simmons is likely paid to be that way..sort of a good writer, bad writer scenario.

I think the best guy they've had cover the team the last little while is Bill Lankoff, which is hard to believe for me, because I never liked his style of writing in the past.

[paulwoods13]

Interesting to see that thread again. The issue of "media bias against the CFL" gets debated at least three or four times a year in these forums. No one ever changes their mind, or anyone else's mind, oddly enough.

[R.J]

Remember that Paul (Mr. NFL) Godfrey was the publisher of the Sun for many years and his pro-NFL, anti-CFL stance seemed to trickle down to much of the sports department of that paper (Jim Hunt and George Gross - both now deceased - being notable exceptions). Godfrey left the Sun and went on his reign of error with the Jays around 2000 IIRC so things had probably improved somewhat by '07 but his impact was likely felt for several years, even after his departure.
Yes I recall Godfrey at the Sun, he was long gone in 2000, and I don't remember the Sun being too bad from 04-now, but thanks Ravi.

Rick Matsumoto was still covering the Argos for the Star and they definitely had much better (friendlier?) coverage of the Argos at that time. Things really have changed since then. My only problem today with the Sun is that they still have guys covering the team that know nothing about football. Koshan and Zeisberger are hockey writers, and in 20+ years, I still have no idea what Ziccarelli is. Simmons in negative about everything...not just the CFL. In fact, I think Simmons is likely paid to be that way..sort of a good writer, bad writer scenario.

I think the best guy they've had cover the team the last little while is Bill Lankoff, which is hard to believe for me, because I never liked his style of writing in the past.
I would have to agree Angelo, while the Sun has great CFL content, if there was only one complaint it would be no "true" CFL writer, more hockey guys covering the CFL than anything else.

Also I'd like to point out that today I heard the media talk about something that is being talked about here, earlier this morning Mike Richards & Co, brought up how the Blue Jays announced attendance was around 16,000, but Richards brought up there couldn't have been more than 6-8,000 and brought up how the Marlies playing last night drew over 4,000, and both crowds looked very similar in size. Richards also stated that the Jays are barely a baseball town when the team is winning and the early 90's are long gone.

[argotom]

Yes I recall Godfrey at the Sun, he was long gone in 2000, and I don't remember the Sun being too bad from 04-now, but thanks Ravi.

I would have to agree Angelo, while the Sun has great CFL content, if there was only one complaint it would be no "true" CFL writer, more hockey guys covering the CFL than anything else.

Also I'd like to point out that today I heard the media talk about something that is being talked about here, earlier this morning Mike Richards & Co, brought up how the Blue Jays announced attendance was around 16,000, but Richards brought up there couldn't have been more than 6-8,000 and brought up how the Marlies playing last night drew over 4,000, and both crowds looked very similar in size. Richards also stated that the Jays are barely a baseball town when the team is winning and the early 90's are long gone.




Exactly, although the Sun coverage the last year has improved "over 100%", I would also like to see a beat writer for the team like Perry Lefko used to be.
After the Sun, in my opinion the other daylies and especially The Star are pathetic and not worth talking about.
In fact, I have cancelled my subscription to The Star for this very same reason.


I laughed when i read him say that Roger Lajoie is CFL friendly. He happened to be on the fan the last time the bills played in TO and was taking calls. I was out shopping and had the fan on in the car. he took 3 calls in a row, 2 guys said they scored freebies and were more into the CFL, And the 3rd said he could care less about football, Hockey is where its at. You could actually feel his frustration as he went on saying "regardless of the last few callers, this is a big deal blah blah blah....


This guy is a joke and just like the vast majority and especially now with the combination of Fan 590 and Sportsnet, the CFL and Argos are shunned even more so.
Unfortunately Team 1050 is only slightly better and dare I say both stations are the same when it comes to hockey, hockey 24/7 over the top coverage.

[Ballstothewall]

Interesting to see that thread again. The issue of "media bias against the CFL" gets debated at least three or four times a year in these forums. No one ever changes their mind, or anyone else's mind, oddly enough.

Whats ever more funny, is the NFL is coming to T.O for sure in 2007, members of the media wrote like it was a done deal back then. Skip 5 years and the NFL is all but dead in T.O for the next 15 years, and the CFL will have a more then 15 million $ gate in T.O come NOV. I still have the T.O sun newspaper, with the big headline from Simmons. NFL coming to T.O in Years, not decades. That I believe was 1997

[argofandave]

I still have the article Simmons wrote on July 29, 1989 titled "ARGO TICKETS DISPOSABLE." SkyDome had just opened the month before and he called for a boycott of Argo games since he believed that the Argos were the only thing keeping the NFL out of Toronto. He wrote "...for Toronto to have hope...of ever joining the NFL, the CFL must first expire. Torontonians can play a part in this expiration. They can stop going to Argo games. They can stop buying tickets. The sooner the better."

I've hated him ever since.

[argotom]

I still have the article Simmons wrote on July 29, 1989 titled "ARGO TICKETS DISPOSABLE." SkyDome had just opened the month before and he called for a boycott of Argo games since he believed that the Argos were the only thing keeping the NFL out of Toronto. He wrote "...for Toronto to have hope...of ever joining the NFL, the CFL must first expire. Torontonians can play a part in this expiration. They can stop going to Argo games. They can stop buying tickets. The sooner the better."

I've hated him ever since.


Thanks for reminding us dave as I do now recall this infamous quote.
Boy how those kool aid driniking quickly forget about the likes of Simmons, Brunt, Cox, Lankof etc.

[LLB997]

[QUOTE=argofandave;5937]I still have the article Simmons wrote on July 29, 1989 titled "ARGO TICKETS DISPOSABLE." SkyDome had just opened the month before and he called for a boycott of Argo games since he believed that the Argos were the only thing keeping the NFL out of Toronto. He wrote "...for Toronto to have hope...of ever joining the NFL, the CFL must first expire. Torontonians can play a part in this expiration. They can stop going to Argo games. They can stop buying tickets. The sooner the better."



i would LOVE to read that "article", please post it if you can. Ya, he is the absolute worst of the worst. thx

[argolio]

Whats ever more funny, is the NFL is coming to T.O for sure in 2007, members of the media wrote like it was a done deal back then. Skip 5 years and the NFL is all but dead in T.O for the next 15 years, and the CFL will have a more then 15 million $ gate in T.O come NOV. I still have the T.O sun newspaper, with the big headline from Simmons. NFL coming to T.O in Years, not decades. That I believe was 1997The Sun had various proclamations like that in the late 80's and 90's. Here is one from a September 1993 sports editorial:

If yesterday’s (Argo) major shake-up doesn’t do the trick – we’ll give them until after next year – the team and, likely, the league are doomed.If Toronto Sun CEO Paul Godfrey didn't write or suggest that, he surely must have approved it with a big smile on his face.

As for the publicity surrounding the Bills in Toronto announcement in 2007, I can't remember if anyone wrote that the NFL coming here permanently was a done deal. If memory serves, Brunt believes (based on a source I would presume) that there is a secret agreement for a Toronto ownership group to have the right to bid for the Bills when Ralph Wilson passes away. But I've never heard him say an NFL team here is a done deal.


Thanks for reminding us dave as I do now recall this infamous quote.
Boy how those kool aid driniking quickly forget about the likes of Simmons, Brunt, Cox, Lankof etc.Are you using a quote by Simmons that pretty much everyone here would call outrageous and indefensible to tar other writers? Because if you are, that's pathetic.

[AngeloV]

Are you using a quote by Simmons that pretty much everyone here would call outrageous and indefensible to tar other writers? Because if you are, that's pathetic.

Not as pathetic as the beating he took in the 13th Man thread.:D

[R.J]

IIRC I believe Mulder had previously brought up how Rogers employees were given warnings or slap on the wrists if they brought up something negative about the Jays.

So I do find it odd in that Hogie in the 13th man thread states that never happens, and the these guys are not told by their bosses what to say and what to avoid. Some have also brought up how Cox has done a complete 180 when it comes to the Jays now that he works on Sportsnet.

[ArgoRavi]

IIRC I believe Mulder had previously brought up how Rogers employees were given warnings or slap on the wrists if they brought up something negative about the Jays.

I recall that Bubba O'Neil who works for CHCH but worked for Sportsnet for several years and has many friends there has confirmed this (either on his Sportsline show or on Facebook). I believe that I have seen mention of this elsewhere too (Dowbiggin's column in the Globe perhaps or Chriz Zelkovich when he was at the Sun with his sports media column).


So I do find it odd in that Hogie in the 13th man thread states that never happens, and the these guys are not told by their bosses what to say and what to avoid. Some have also brought up how Cox has done a complete 180 when it comes to the Jays now that he works on Sportsnet.

Look at Jim Lang as well. He talks very little about the CFL on his show and is pretty much all NFL all the time now.

[Ballstothewall]

i"m thinking this one belongs over here

Argo Tickets Disposable by Steve Simmons


This article was printed in the Toronto Sun on July 29, 1989:

The time is right to make an investment in Toronto's football future: Tear up your Argo tickets.

Use them as wallpaper. Give them to the kids for crayoning. Just don't sit in the seats.

And if you're a member of the majority and don't have them anyway, don't go out and buy them.

These are troubled times for football in Toronto and there are but a few solutions to end the difficulty.

The first solution has been attempted and failed. The SkyDome aside, there simply isn't genuine interest in the Argos anymore. Attendance figures prove it, but moreso it is found away from the stadium: at lunch, at cocktail parties and in the bars at night.

Nobody is talking football in Toronto anymore.

The same people who sit out on their porch listening nightly to any one of 162 Blue Jays' games on radio aren't doing the same on football nights. The same people who will debate at length the relative merits of releasing Bob Brenly and promoting Francisco Cabrera don't sit around arguing which Argo contributes more, Mike Clemons of Lorenzo Graham.

When Tony Fernandez was hit by a pitch earlier this season and missed a Blue Jays' month, his health became a conversational focus in Toronto, a part of daily life.

When Gilbert Renfroe injured his finger and relinquished the quarterbacking job with the Argos just days ago, few even noticed.

The dilemma Toronto finds itself in is this: What is good for the CFL is bad for Toronto. And what is good for Toronto is bad for the CFL.

The very health of the league is in Toronto's hands, both from a franchise perspective and a television ratings game. Either way, the largest market in the country can have impact.

And what we propose here is flexing some of that muscle, advocating the beginning of the end. The mercy killing of the Canadian League.

In their state-of-the-art home, the Argos need to scratch, claw and pad attendance figures to come up with the 34,000 they're announcing these days. That's 11,000 less than the Blue Jays have drawn an any single night at the Dome.

An NFL franchise here tomorrow would sell out the SkyDome in hours - for a decade if it had to - by simply making the announcement it had arrived.

But for Toronto to have hope - and it should be stressed it is just that - of ever joining the NFL, the CFL must first expire.

Torontonians can play a part in this expiration. They can stop going to Argo games. They can stop buying tickets. The sooner the better.

Once the NFL straightens out its commissioner situation and comes to a solution on its collective bargaining arrangement, the league will expand. Probably by four teams. There are but two certainties with NFL expansion. Baltimore and St. Louis are in. Both will be granted franchises to make up for the teams already lost.

Which leaves two openings and no clear-cut favourites. If Toronto was included on the list of those applying, and considering the mighty attendance numbers the Blue Jays are flashing, it might vault past the Jacksonvilles, San Antonios, Oaklands and Montreals, to be in line with Memphis for the third and fourth slots. But with the CFL alive, not even a bid would be considered.

Some people will be angered by this stance. Some people will insist I am influenced by certain executives of this newspaper and their persuit of an NFL franchise. But that isn't true.

I grew up on the CFL. I vehemently debated the relative merits of Wally Gabler and Tom Wilkinson as quarterbacks.

I would like nothing better than to see a strong and vibrant CFL, but I am also realistic enough to know that is no longer possible. The argument of sound entertainment isn't enough to sell sport anymore: if it were, professional lacrosse would never have died.

Toronto wants big-league sport, presented in a big-league manner. The people will buy the NFL.

They will not buy the CFL anymore.

[LLB997]

I think i'll reread it tomorrow in one of the TO daily papers.

[paulwoods13]

I'm still waiting for paulwoods to provide proof that Brunt has been critical of the NFL, TFC, or Raps, I still can't find any.

Perhaps you missed the posting where I wrote: It would cost money to review the lion's share of Brunt's career output because his work for the Globe is hidden behind a paywall.

Are you prepared to bankroll this?

[argolio]

Are you prepared to bankroll this?I'll throw in a dollar.

I'll also offer to throw out the first drunk.

[Scottish_Argo]

Sounds pretty harsh telling the CFL to scrap the Argo's , i still believe Toronto should have a NFL franchise but there has to be a CFL team in Toronto no matter what !

Are there not more grey cup tickets being released in June to the public ...do you need to register for these or can you just purchase them from the release date/time.

[AngeloV]

Are there not more grey cup tickets being released in June to the public ...do you need to register for these or can you just purchase them from the release date/time.

There will be more released. The "sell out" is based on Season ticket holders and the other 7 teams allocated tickets all being picked up. Every year there are a few thousand that aren't picked up, and they go on sale to the public.

[1argoholic]

I know that the ATM type machines set up at Grey Cup in Vancouver to put a deposit down for Grey Cup were doing brish business. So if It's not sold out it will be close.

[Rich]

I just think Brunt gets unfairly attacked. He is a big CFL fan, and has never put down the product on the field.

When Brunt says the 120 best QB's are in the NFL, he is putting down the product on the field BIG TIME. He is reinforcing the stereotype held by CFL-haters that the league is full of NFL rejects, and therefore lousy players. I'm sure paulwoods would agree that Brunt's QB claim is demonstrably false. That doesn't make him "anti-CFL" necessarily. But it does make him guilty of not doing his homework, and therefore not giving the CFL the respect it deserves.

Never mind trying to explain how JP Losman is a better QB than Anthony Calvillo. Why can't Brunt show an understanding of how the vagaries of roster movement result in many "NFL-calibre" players coming to play in the CFL? That the quality of the CFL player is not the very very best but still relatively high and worth our complete attention. It's all about giving the CFL the respect it deserves. Brunt does not. His statement about quarterbacks proves it.







incidentally snowRogie earlier quoted an exchange between "Argosfan" and Mike Hogan, and I recognized my deathless prose, I never used that handle but I stand by the words:

Argosfan wrote : Hogie:

It's great that all these people like the CFL. But how many of them would be prepared to discuss the impact of Mike Pearson's injury on the Eastern Final? Certainly not all of them could. But I bet that every one of them could explain the impact of Marvin Harrison's injury on that Colts-Pats game.

The point I want to make is this: Show me a Canadian sports fan who has no interest in the CFL, and I'll show you somebody who has a lack of knowledge about the CFL. For sure the League itself is partly to blame for not getting their message out for, I dunno, the last 30 years or so. But surely the Canadian sports media should shoulder some of the blame for not educating Canadians well enough about the merits of this great game. Nobody, outside of fanatics like argotom, expects the media to be cheerleaders for the CFL. But I think we have the right to expect the Canadian sports media to be on top of all the ins and outs of this Canadian game, and, sadly, this is not the case.

For example, how often do we hear people say that they don't follow the CFL because the players are NFL rejects who are vastly inferior to those playing south of the border. Hogie, you and I both know that this isn't true, that it's mostly luck and circumstance that makes some players fall through the cracks of the NFL and onto CFL rosters. What did Jeff Garcia say, that the difference between NFL and CFL players at certain positions is negligible.

So how come we never hear any Canadian sports journalists talking about the relative merits of the CFL compared to the NFL athlete? How come we never hear (outside your program) about how these fine CIS athletes, local boys, hold their own in the CFL against players from the big NCAA football factories? If the Canadian sports media told these stories in depth and in detail, educating the Canadian public about this game and its players, I guarantee there'd be a lot more interest in the CFL.

So it's more than liking the CFL. We need the sports media in general to be better educated about the CFL, so that they can better educate the public about it.

[tc23]

Well said !! Canadians don't appreiciate the CFL because of the hype the nfl gets and all the American media influence. The CFL is the way sport should be run !! We have a GREAT thing going in the CFL. I tell americans, Its our little secret, North of the Border !!

THIS IS OUR LEAGUE !!

[R.J]

When Brunt says the 120 best QB's are in the NFL, he is putting down the product on the field BIG TIME. He is reinforcing the stereotype held by CFL-haters that the league is full of NFL rejects, and therefore lousy players. I'm sure paulwoods would agree that Brunt's QB claim is demonstrably false. That doesn't make him "anti-CFL" necessarily. But it does make him guilty of not doing his homework, and therefore not giving the CFL the respect it deserves.

Never mind trying to explain how JP Losman is a better QB than Anthony Calvillo. Why can't Brunt show an understanding of how the vagaries of roster movement result in many "NFL-calibre" players coming to play in the CFL? That the quality of the CFL player is not the very very best but still relatively high and worth our complete attention. It's all about giving the CFL the respect it deserves. Brunt does not. His statement about quarterbacks proves it.
The comment made by Brunt was that the "top 100 QB's presumably play in the NFL and top 101-120 play in the CFL" and was stated here.
http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20120305_184152_6280

[OV Argo]

Brunt is a total moron with that comment; sorry all of you who respect him as a fine "journalist"; but he knows dick-all about football, and Rich is bang-on (as usual) - that idiot comment is a total slap in the face and disrespect to the CFL; but just what all the wannabes want to hear.

[Wobbler]

The comment made by Brunt was that the "top 100 QB's presumably play in the NFL and top 101-120 play in the CFL" and was stated here.
http://www.fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20120305_184152_6280
The weirdest part of that interview is the idea that perhaps QBs should be excluded from the ratio because the odds of having 8 NI QBs capable of starting in the CFL are very low. Huh? There may not be 8 NI cornerbacks capable of starting in the CFL but they are included in the ratio as they should be. The point should be to treat QBs like any other player and to include them in the same quota system as everyone else.

Brunt's "The 100 best QBs play in the NFL" remark sounded pretty off-hand. If asked, I bet that he'd change it to something like "~98 of the top 100 QBs with an NFL skillset are playing in the NFL", which is a pretty reasonable assertion.

[LLB997]

Just received an email to purchase my GC tix. Its only a 3 day window to select a seat and the rules seem really stringent to the point i am getting a unique link and password that can only be used 1 time. It even says if i post this info in any public forum then my purchase will be cancelled. Nice to see the GC committee are serious about making sure the tickets get into the hands of the true fans.

[tc23]

Just received an email to purchase my GC tix. Its only a 3 day window to select a seat and the rules seem really stringent to the point i am getting a unique link and password that can only be used 1 time. It even says if i post this info in any public forum then my purchase will be cancelled. Nice to see the GC committee are serious about making sure the tickets get into the hands of the true fans.

NICE, when does the the three day window start ??

[Deerkeeper]

My e-mail said a five day window from 28 May to 1 June

[argotom]

And there are still some here that are "supporters" of this NFL cheerleader, when continuously he has nothing good to say about our league.
Please don't give this nonsense oh Brunt is from Hamilton and still has season seats.