Argos release Raymond, avoid guaranteeing contract

[R.J]

http://3downnation.com/2016/08/25/argos-release-raymond-avoid-guaranteeing-contract/

Wow, wasn't expecting this at all.

[Will]

Isn't this what the Argos started doing in 2008 when it was evident that the season was going south?

[R.J]

My concern is who will play Sam ? I really hope it's not Isaac.

[paulwoods13]

Stunned about this, given his leadership skills. He has missed some plays this year -- should have three pick-sixes, not just one, and he's been run past by some receivers. But still, wow, especially with Greenwood still out.

[ArgoGabe22]

I thought we had owners with deep pockets. I don't think he wasn't underperforming so much that he needed to released or be asked to restructure his contract.

[PullTogether73]

Second leading tackler on the team and has two picks, and they don't want to guarantee him to the end of THIS YEAR?
Sigh.

[Wobbler]

I wonder if the Lemon signing pushed our budget a bit too far. Like everyone, I'm quite curious to see the new LB configuration.

[ArgoTD]

I'm surprised and disappointed by this most recent move. This is a team that desperately needs some veterans but they decide to cut the second leading tackler on the team and someone who is a leader in the room. They appear to be a team that is not only petty in their decision making but also a team in total disarray with no overall direction or plan in place. They are quickly becoming a team that is harder and harder to be excited about!

[ArgoGabe22]

Deja Vu (Cory Boyd)

[AngeloV]

Deja Vu (Cory Boyd)

hopefully, it has the same result, but I don't like the move at all. I would much rather Issaac have been released. The only thing I can think of is that they are planning to move Gordon to the LB group, perhaps meaning the return of Gabriel.

[doubleblue]

I thought Raymond was performing better than Issac, but was probably making a lot more money. Strange move on the surface. Must be something more coming. The old Argos would sign a big name Import to create excitement, but I don't think they can now under the Salary Cap System.
Bringing in Johnny Football would probably fill the place up a few times. lol

[paulwoods13]

I think it's likely that when/if Greenwood is healthy, he and McFadden will man two of the LB spots. I also think someone else (Gordon seems a good bet) would play ahead of Isaac, with Isaac possibly coming in for passing downs in a 3-4 config.

I assume Raymond's salary was pretty high. We do have deep-pocketed owners but we can't exceed the SMS and if a release like this is necessary to stay compliant and preserve draft picks, so be it. I liked the guy and felt he played pretty well most of the time, but if we have a younger, cheaper and potentially as-good-or-better guy to fill, may as well do it. As Obie always said, "Better is better," so mgmt "better" be right about this.

[Shipyard]

honestly he has played well, but was he a long term solution. he was a one or two year stopgap
not too many 33yr olds at nickle/sam in the league.

[1971GreyCup]

I think these types of decisions are best made at the beginning and end of the season. Raymond was a leader on defence, experienced and had some profile on a no name defence. I think that if there was a budgetary problem, I could find some cap room to eliminate on the d-line. I don't like the optics of this move. It sure will make veterans think twice about coming to the Double Blue in future.

[gilthethrill]

Could Raymond still be capable of playing HB, where we seem to struggle each year? Move him there if you don't like him at LB. Not a fan of this move at all.

[paulwoods13]

It sure will make veterans think twice about coming to the Double Blue in future.

Really? Because we are the only team that has ever released a vet just before Game 9? It happens fairly frequently in this league. I don't believe any veteran free agent would turn down a competitive offer from the Argos because they cut a guy a year or two earlier.

[R.J]

Could Raymond still be capable of playing HB, where we seem to struggle each year? Move him there if you don't like him at LB. Not a fan of this move at all.
Safety maybe, but too slow to play HB or CB at this point of his career. Hence, why Calgary moved him to sam a while ago.

[paulwoods13]

Could Raymond still be capable of playing HB, where we seem to struggle each year? Move him there if you don't like him at LB. Not a fan of this move at all.

IMO he is likely too slow to play HB. I've seen slotbacks run past him this season. He wasn't terrible but he wasn't great, either.

[1971GreyCup]

Paul, sorry for being a fan! You can leave the economics of the CFL off the sports pages. I have a full day of business and enjoy a few hours of my week watching sports. Barker constantly reminds me of the business side of sports.

Barker brought Raymond into the league and touted his signing in May. What has Barker learned in 8 games that he didn't know in May? Unwilling to pay a premium, ie. a whole season, for Raymond because he is a longstanding veteran. Short sighted! If signing Raymond was a mistake, the blame falls on Barker. Usually in business when you poorly allocate your capital, you go, not the capital.

Well, too bad the average CFL experience on his defences always seem to be less than one year. Raymond was an exception to this rule and he lasted 8 games with cap space the excuse.

Perhaps now we'll See a bunch of NFL cuts that will spend the rest of the season trying to figure out that they have to give one yard between offence and defence. In the meantime, the elite teams with consistent, veteran rosters will pull away from Toronto, with another lost season. I am sure fans are really going to come out in droves to watch this folly.

If that's the case, Barker and SM are gone before the Grey Cup.

[KCargosfan]

Interesting timing, and I can't help but wonder with NFL cuts coming up in 10 days.

Not really a fan of this move as Raymond still had gas left in the tank. Yeah, he wasn't what he was 4 years ago, but still an effective player.

If this was a money move, how much cash are we actually saving? Raymond likely wasn't making more than $120K (and that's probably high), so we're saving roughly $65K at the most.

I wonder after he clears waivers, if Calgary will re-sign him at something close to league minimum?

[paulwoods13]

A lot of folks seem to be assuming he was cut specifically to save the salary. It's also possible he was cut because the coaches determined he can't play at a high enough level. Or that he said or did something inside the room that made keeping him untenable. Or that the team is switching defensive systems. Or some other reason we don't know and may never know.

It is a fact that cutting a veteran at this stage of the season means you are not on the hook for his salary. It is conjecture that he is being cut solely or mostly for that reason alone. May well be true, but we actually don't know, do we?

[Ron]

A lot of folks seem to be assuming he was cut specifically to save the salary. It's also possible he was cut because the coaches determined he can't play at a high enough level. Or that he said or did something inside the room that made keeping him untenable. Or that the team is switching defensive systems. Or some other reason we don't know and may never know.

It is a fact that cutting a veteran at this stage of the season means you are not on the hook for his salary. It is conjecture that he is being cut solely or mostly for that reason alone. May well be true, but we actually don't know, do we?

You stole my post! (said it better though) ;)

[PullTogether73]

A lot of folks seem to be assuming he was cut specifically to save the salary. It's also possible he was cut because the coaches determined he can't play at a high enough level. Or that he said or did something inside the room that made keeping him untenable. Or that the team is switching defensive systems. Or some other reason we don't know and may never know.

It is a fact that cutting a veteran at this stage of the season means you are not on the hook for his salary. It is conjecture that he is being cut solely or mostly for that reason alone. May well be true, but we actually don't know, do we?

Well, if he can't play at a high enough level as the team's second leading tackler, everybody else on defense has got to be very nervous about their tenure.
From what I've seen of the Argos tackling this year, cutting your second leading tackler is not a good move.

[Stevoman]

I think that this is a stupid move. Stubler's defence takes time to implement and the last few games have had the unit going backwards in development but partly due to the fault of the offence. I felt that Raymond was one of the few that wasn't digressing. Losing him puts this defence even further behind, not to mention, the heart and leadership that he has shown. I repeat, this is a stupid move and does not demonstrate to me that this is an organization committed to a Grey Cup run. I'd love to be proven wrong.

[argolio]

Now there will be more playing time for Collaros and Harris.

(couldn't resist)

[paulwoods13]

Tackling stats are not the be-all and end-all, especially in an era when outside LBs mostly cover receivers. Greenwood or McFadden would likely be our leading tackler if they hadn't missed games. Cory Boyd was our leading rusher (by eons) when he was released.

[paulwoods13]

I think that this is a stupid move. Stubler's defence takes time to implement and the last few games have had the unit going backwards in development but partly due to the fault of the offence. I felt that Raymond was one of the few that wasn't digressing. Losing him puts this defence even further behind, not to mention, the heart and leadership that he has shown. I repeat, this is a stupid move and does not demonstrate to me that this is an organization committed to a Grey Cup run. I'd love to be proven wrong.

The defence is going backwards (yes, indeed it is) yet someone on it should be exempt from being cut? With the possible exception of Greenwood, there hasn't been a single player on our defence who would be considered for all-star honours this season. Heath has three picks but hasn't played all-star-calibre ball overall. d-linemen have been very inconsistent. If Raymond was playing like an all-star, I missed it. He's been OK and I was surprised by his release, but this is not like cutting a star in his prime.

[OV Argo]

Well, if he can't play at a high enough level as the team's second leading tackler, everybody else on defense has got to be very nervous about their tenure.
From what I've seen of the Argos tackling this year, cutting your second leading tackler is not a good move.


Agreed.

I'd guess mostly $M$ related; maybe they have a better player in mind to take Raymond's place? - we shall see. Maybe Stubler's defensive "genius" is way past it's prime in the league now. This defence has been weak or iffy or terrible for most of the season, with a few odd, part game exceptions.

[Reggiemac]

He has been embarassed more than once and we need to look to the future with good canadian talent who have upside potential and had to find a way to keep Greenwood and McFadden on the field. His best days are behind him and he never dominated in any game.

[Reggiemac]

And Rich is sending a very loud message to his team. Cutting one of his followers from the stamps. Hopefully the message gets through or else we will be seeing some late cuts from the nfl.

[Neely2005]

WTF? This is ridiculous. He's been one of our best tacklers.

[Argo57]

Raymond didn't stand out by any stretch IMO but still a little surprising given his history with Stubler.
Big hype given to the off season signings of Raymond and Bulcke (featured prominently in the Argo pre season marketing campaign) and both gone.
Also factor in the performances of the other free agent signings this off season (Bourke, Hall and Hickman) rather unimpressive to say the least!!
Could make some skeptical when they over hype future signings.

[Wobbler]

We're not the only ones who were surprised.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Totally blown away today. If anyone knows me I&#39;m a man of faith and I stand strong on it. I wish the Argos Organization nothing but the best</p>&mdash; Keon Raymond (@Mr_Raymond25) <a href="https://twitter.com/Mr_Raymond25/status/768986844163936256">August 26, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[PullTogether73]

We're not the only ones who were surprised.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Totally blown away today. If anyone knows me I&#39;m a man of faith and I stand strong on it. I wish the Argos Organization nothing but the best</p>&mdash; Keon Raymond (@Mr_Raymond25) <a href="https://twitter.com/Mr_Raymond25/status/768986844163936256">August 26, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Yah, the gang on TSN 1150 Hamilton (Marsh & Milton show) couldn't understand this move either.

[1971GreyCup]

Milanovich changed his mind since May 2016,

"While he hasn’t had much time to watch Raymond in practice, Milanovich knows the presence the veteran will have on Toronto’s defence.

“I always thought he was one of the top SAMs in the league,’’ said Milanovich of Raymond. “I think he’s a lot like B.I. (Brandon Isaac), a veteran who is always in the right spot, around the ball, makes big plays when you need them. Last year we were so young in the secondary with B.I. being the only veteran, at least now the guys have one year (under their belt), B.I. and now him (Raymond).

“Hopefully he’ll take us to that next level.”

Maybe the rookies will take us to the next level going into the final 9 games.

[ArgoGabe22]

I don't think the move was 100% based on his salary but it does suck to see him be one week away from a guaranteed contract. I wasn't pleased the Alouettes did the same to Henoc Muamba. It's something the CFLPA may want to look into going into for the next CBA. Not sure what exactly can be done though.

It's things like this where what Mo Price did doesn't really bother me as much. Although, I might be in the minority.

[doubleblue]

Maybe someone is shaking loose in the NFL who would be an upgrade on defense. Tristan Okpalaugo and Marcus Ball might be available in a week or so. Hickman may be the next to go.

[Argo57]

I don't think the move was 100% based on his salary but it does suck to see him be one week away from a guaranteed contract. I wasn't pleased the Alouettes did the same to Henoc Muamba. It's something the CFLPA may want to look into going into for the next CBA. Not sure what exactly can be done though.

It's things like this where what Mo Price did doesn't really bother me as much. Although, I might be in the minority.

Shows that being a free agent in the CFL is a bit of a joke TBH.
Reading Milanovich's comments in post#35 makes you wonder how full of shit coaches and GM's are about free agent signings, draft picks etc.
Football is a business and while the optics of what happened with Mo Price aren't the best you start to understand it after a while, no loyalties on either side.

[Jon Gonzo]

I think this move is horse-s##t and unless they have something better, they are playing with fire. This is also one of the main problems with attracting new fans to the CFL....and bunch of old guys yammering on and defending a move like this. Kids will just go and play X-Box, watch the Jays or NFL Pre-season. A CFL that often does not make sense, is very often a problem.

[1971GreyCup]

I think this move is horse-s##t and unless they have something better, they are playing with fire. This is also one of the main problems with attracting new fans to the CFL....and bunch of old guys yammering on and defending a move like this. Kids will just go and play X-Box, watch the Jays or NFL Pre-season. A CFL that often does not make sense, is very often a problem.

Agreed! There's the bottom line and the big picture. How many Social Media appearances did Raymond make? All of a C sudden, you're looking for new story lines.

Maybe an explanation from the team, when they make big and unpopular move? Or do the fans really not matter to the HC and GM. I thought they were in the entertainment business? Customer service and all.

[Johno27]

"Football is a business and while the optics of what happened with Mo Price aren't the best you start to understand it after a while, no loyalties on either side."

Agree with this statement. IMO "loyalty" and "professional sport" is a contradiction in terms. Only winning matters.

"Kids will just go and play X-Box, watch the Jays or NFL Pre-season. A CFL that often does not make sense, is very often a problem."

No professional league is immune to moves that do "not make sense" to those who are on the outside looking in. And, by the way, has anyone in the media bothered to ask Jim Barker or Scott Milanovich for an explanation?

[1971GreyCup]

"Football is a business and while the optics of what happened with Mo Price aren't the best you start to understand it after a while, no loyalties on either side."

Agree with this statement. IMO "loyalty" and "professional sport" is a contradiction in terms. Only winning matters.

"Kids will just go and play X-Box, watch the Jays or NFL Pre-season. A CFL that often does not make sense, is very often a problem."

No professional league is immune to moves that do "not make sense" to those who are on the outside looking in. And, by the way, has anyone in the media bothered to ask Jim Barker or Scott Milanovich for an explanation?






I am pretty sure they'll be asked today at practice. A press
release would have been useful. They were pretty forthcoming when they signed
Raymond. Maybe they could have full disclosure at the time
Of release.

[TheHammer]

Yah, the gang on TSN 1150 Hamilton (Marsh & Milton show) couldn't understand this move either.

Does it bother you that there's more Argo talk on Hamilton stations then there are Toronto stations?

Not trying to be facetious, just wondering your feelings on it. Personally, I think it's a joke the Argos don't get more press in TO.

[AngeloV]

Does it bother you that there's more Argo talk on Hamilton stations then there are Toronto stations?

Not trying to be facetious, just wondering your feelings on it. Personally, I think it's a joke the Argos don't get more press in TO.

Doesn't bother me at all. As long as I can get my CFL fix somewhere, I'm happy. I listen to Ti-Cats, and Marsh (hopefully no longer the boring Milton--much better with Jamie Thomas) pretty much every day. I have TSN go on my phone, and seem to listen to Hamilton, Winnipeg and Ottawa a lot more than Toronto for that very reason.

[paulwoods13]

Reading Milanovich's comments in post#35 makes you wonder how full of shit coaches and GM's are about free agent signings, draft picks etc.

So you're saying he was lying when he expressed pleasure and hope about Raymond coming on board? Is it not possible he simply changed his mind based on Raymond's actual on-field performance? The number of players who were hyped and later cut is a million names long. It's what happens in sports. Guys don't fit, don't work out, suddenly get old, etc.

[R.J]

Raymond really hasn't been playing too well as of late, but I'm I curious as to who the replacement is. If it does end up being Isaac, then it's clearly not an upgrade, but who else do we have that can play sam ?


I don't think the move was 100% based on his salary but it does suck to see him be one week away from a guaranteed contract. I wasn't pleased the Alouettes did the same to Henoc Muamba. It's something the CFLPA may want to look into going into for the next CBA. Not sure what exactly can be done though.

It's things like this where what Mo Price did doesn't really bother me as much. Although, I might be in the minority.
I'm in the minority with you.

[PullTogether73]

Does it bother you that there's more Argo talk on Hamilton stations then there are Toronto stations?

Not trying to be facetious, just wondering your feelings on it. Personally, I think it's a joke the Argos don't get more press in TO.

I'm glad I can get some CFL talk in the GTA!
Let's face it, Rogers "Baseballnet" isn't going to talk CFL. Hell, they barely talk anything other than baseball, which is why I rarely listen to them (I'm not a boreball fan FYI).

And TSN 1050 supposedly gets complaints if they talk CFL, so we are left without radio coverage.
Btw, since when does TSN 1050 pay attention to listener complaints? I'll have to send a note to them complaining about the lack of CFL coverage I guess.

[Wobbler]

Reading Milanovich's comments in post#35 makes you wonder how full of shit coaches and GM's are about free agent signings, draft picks etc.
I agree that those statements should be taken worth a grain of salt. Praising a newly acquired player is *mandatory*. When a visiting speaker mentions what a pleasure it is to be there and how much they enjoy yoyr fine city, it doesnt matter if is true or not.

[gilthethrill]

Calgary Sun had a nice write up on the Raymond release.

[Shipyard]

FYI

Stampeders shocked after Argonauts release former teammate Keon Raymond

Well, that escalated quickly.
Keon Raymond was celebrating yet another defensive touchdown on Saturday.
Now he’s on the unemployment line.
The longtime Calgary Stampeders defender was released Thursday morning by the Toronto Argonauts.
Stamps head coach Dave Dickenson was among many in red and white who were shocked by the move.
“I’m not really that aware of the situation,” Dickenson said just moments after hearing about the transaction.
“Nobody likes to see a friend go through that but I don’t know much more than that.”
The Argos decision was obviously based more on Raymond’s contract than his play on the field.
The CFL CBA states that veteran players with six seasons of service will have their contracts guaranteed for the remainder of the season following nine games.
Raymond has played eight games with the Boatmen and sits second on the team with 34 tackles.
He picked off Edmonton Eskimos quarterback Mike Reilly on the first play of the game on Saturday and returned it 40 yards for the touchdown.
Stamps slotback Marquay McDaniel sputtered for a few minutes as he struggled to comprehend the news.
“What? I didn’t hear that,” said McDaniel, who was on the practice field when the Argos announced the move.
“He just had a pick six! That’s crazy. I don’t even know.
“I thought he was playing pretty well over there. He’s around the ball a lot. I saw he got some sacks. Maybe it’s a cap thing.”
Raymond played eight seasons with the Stamps before signing with the Argonauts as a free agent in the off-season.
Last weekend’s interception was the seventh pick-six and eighth defensive touchdown of the 33-year-old’s career.
He holds the Stampeders franchise record in both categories.
While the Argos press release didn’t offer an explanation, it’s clear the guaranteed salary was a big factor.
When productive players are released there is sometimes speculation as to whether there was an off-field problem.
That won’t be the case here.
Raymond has always been a pillar of the community and, as his former teammates confirmed, a leader in the locker room.
Once receiver Simon Charbonneau-Campeau got over the shock of learning Raymond had been cut, he also pointed to money as the likely trigger.
“It’s the CFL,” Charbonneau-Campeau said. “It’s not always about what is happening on the field.
“He’s a pretty good person so I know nothing bad happened. It was probably a money thing.
“I’m sure he’ll figure something out.”
The Argos (4-4) are on a bye this week and don’t return to action until Aug. 31 when they host the B.C. Lions.

[Ron]

Interesting. Let's see if the Stamps scoop him up real quick.

[Argo57]

So you're saying he was lying when he expressed pleasure and hope about Raymond coming on board? Is it not possible he simply changed his mind based on Raymond's actual on-field performance? The number of players who were hyped and later cut is a million names long. It's what happens in sports. Guys don't fit, don't work out, suddenly get old, etc.

Argo management couldn't praise Raymond enough when he arrived for his experience, leadership skills and community service.
His play was far from being the worst in the Argo secondary IMO.
"The number of players who were hyped and later cut is a million names long" is precisely why managements praise tends to lack credibility.

[Gill The Thrill]

I agree that those statements should be taken worth a grain of salt. Praising a newly acquired player is *mandatory*. When a visiting speaker mentions what a pleasure it is to be there and how much they enjoy yoyr fine city, it doesnt matter if is true or not.

No wonder a guy with Barker's dubious coaching record ended up with a GM's job. This move is strictly CYA with the bean counters. Let me play Monty Hall and guess that he was shown two doors.

Behind Door #1 was a player's release for the contract of Keon Raymond.

Behind Door #2 was the grim reaper holding an axe.

Which door would you have taken??? We know the one he took.

[1971GreyCup]

Sure sounds like he was a real problem to the team. Sure wouldn't want that kind've leadership around for the playoff run.

"A day after Keon Raymond was released, the atmosphere in Argoland was different, one of those sporting shifts that can’t be quantified, a change that isn’t so easily explainable.
While the Argos insist there was no hidden message behind Raymond’s departure, the underlining theme is that more change will be initiated if players aren’t performing.
“It’s hard not to have a different feel when you lose someone who was a captain, was well respected, was a good character,’’ said head coach Scott Milanovich of Raymond, a veteran linebacker who was acquired from Calgary in free agency.
“We didn’t do it to make a statement. I think a lot of Keon, but it does tend to shake things up a little bit from time to time.”
The Argos are 4-4 having lost two in a row, both at home, after leading early in both games only to get blown out when everything, or just about everything, went south on both sides of the ball.
Raymond isn’t the reason for the current slide, but his profile and pedigree did carry weight among teammates and now he’s gone.
Milanovich became Argos head coach in 2012, forced to make hard decisions and asked to make the most difficult of all decisions when he has to call in a player and tell him he’s no longer wanted.
“It’s up there among the top,’’ said Milanovich of the difficulty of releasing Raymond. “I couldn’t respect him as a person, his character, as a teammate any more. His leadership was great.
“Ultimately, we were talking about it (release) for a couple of weeks and we felt we needed more consistent production from that position. It’s one of the hardest things in sports and he took it like the pro that he would.”
The more he has to look a player in the eye and inform him of his release, the harder it becomes for Milanovich, or at least it doesn’t make it any easier as time elapses, especially when that player has character such as Raymond.
“It’s terrible,’’ added Milanovich of breaking the news. “I’ve been in their seat twice when I was cut. I know the feeling. It’s like getting dumped by your girlfriend.
“You can’t believe it, your stomach hurts, your pride hurts. No one wants to make someone feel that way and unfortunately that’s part of my job.”
At the end of the day, it’s Milanovich’s job to win, the ultimate measuring stick for any coach.
The Argos were well-positioned when they hit the one-third pole with a 4-2 record, staring at three home games in a row.
With B.C. coming to town next Wednesday night, there’s no better time for this unit to turn it around, especially with Ricky Ray back at quarterback.
“If we don’t turn it over, if we start getting more production from our offence and defence, we’re going to be pretty good,’’ said Milanovich. “Those are a lot of ifs, but I believe in this team. We’re eight games in and there’s a long way to go, but I believe we’ll get there.”
Ray’s presence will help, but everyone needs to summon more as Labour Day looms.
“My concern is getting us back to playing competitively where we get our confidence back,’’ said Milanovich. “The teams that win in this league get good in the end and we’re not there right now. Everybody knows that.
“We can’t look to Hamilton or anyone down the road. We’ve got to play a backyard, scrap, fight, bleed, sweat, whatever it takes to win this football game and honestly that’s the only mindset I have right now.
“We need to get back to playing good hard-nosed, tough, sound, running-the-ball, protecting-the-ball, stripping-the-ball football.”
It all sounds good and it all sounds pretty fundamental, but the Argos find themselves in a tough spot these days with changes on the horizon for the B.C. meeting and a confidence level that has to be addressed, which can only be achieved by winning.
The Argos are 1-4 at home.
The team’s sixth home date will soon be played as the Argos reach the mid-way mark, in essence two-thirds of their home schedule would be played, meaning the second half features six of nine on the road.
The way this season is playing out, it may not be such a bad thing."

[Argo57]

Whole lot of double speak coming out of the Argo camp (see above post).
Right or wrong they have made this decision, question is who replaces Raymond?
Is there a signing in the horizon or will the revolving door approach continue.

[Wobbler]

No wonder a guy with Barker's dubious coaching record ended up with a GM's job. This move is strictly CYA with the bean counters. Let me play Monty Hall and guess that he was shown two doors.

Behind Door #1 was a player's release for the contract of Keon Raymond.

Behind Door #2 was the grim reaper holding an axe.

Which door would you have taken??? We know the one he took.
This post makes no sense.

[Argo]

Whole lot of double speak coming out of the Argo camp (see above post).

Yes, the portion however small that was actually coherent was something rather like double-speak.

[Jon Gonzo]

Is the Argo Defense better because of this transaction? No

Are there many football people "in the know" who are surprised by this move? Yes

Was Keon Raymond a bad influence in the room? No

Does Keon Raymond's presence help when the going gets tough? Yes

I'll say it again, this team had better respond against the Lions, or the lights will be blaring in the faces of the Argonauts brass. This is playing with fire, and reputation in my estimation.

[Gill The Thrill]

No wonder a guy with Barker's dubious coaching record ended up with a GM's job. This move is strictly CYA with the bean counters. Let me play Monty Hall and guess that he was shown two doors.

Behind Door #1 was a player's release for the contract of Keon Raymond.

Behind Door #2 was the grim reaper holding an axe.

Which door would you have taken??? We know the one he took.


This post makes no sense.Are you a millennial ?? It's referencing the game show; Let's make a Deal. I'm basically implying that Barker was ordered to make this move by ownership to save salary (bean counters)...hence door #1. You honestly don't know what's meant by the acronym CYA...Cover your ass.

If he chose not to...you could bet that ownership would oblige by picking door #2 for him at the end of the season....which means getting fired. (hence the axe reference as has been used to describe the firing of coaches and GM's forever)

dubious - means questionable or skeptical...

Hope that helps you out a bit Wobbler....you know you can find definitions on the internet now. You don't even need to open a dictionary and flip the pages of a book anymore.:)

[Gill The Thrill]

Is the Argo Defense better because of this transaction? No

Are there many football people "in the know" who are surprised by this move? Yes

Was Keon Raymond a bad influence in the room? No

Does Keon Raymond's presence help when the going gets tough? Yes

I'll say it again, this team had better respond against the Lions, or the lights will be blaring in the faces of the Argonauts brass. This is playing with fire, and reputation in my estimation.

Could be argued the defense could not be any worse with him in the lineup, so why pay him for his experience and past production in another organization.

People who follow the CFL and know about the Labour Day rule or the guaranteed salary rule after week 9 are not shocked one bit by this move. This happens throughout the league. It may not be the best thing, but it happened to Arland Bruce when he played here I believe.

Did his presence really help in the room when the going got tough?? Playing awful is playing awful. What leadership was really shown by his presence in the last 2 games particularly? It can be argued, not much.

I understand what you're trying to say about reputation in the community, as an organization, but take a look around you. Nobody, unfortunately cares about this club. Perhaps it's attributable to the fact that this organization has let QB's leave after winning the Grey Cup, and have let other up and coming QB's leave and gotten nothing in return over the years, including 2 guys very recently. I really don't think the release of a veteran DB whose best days are way behind him will hurt the reputation of this team anymore than its' reputation has been damaged by previous moves.

[Stevoman]

Can also be argued that the defence will now be even worse. Time will tell.

[Shipyard]

Milanovich said cut was made based on performance and they are looking for a lot better production from that position (nickle/sam)

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/milanovich-on-raymond-s-release-ray-s-return~939062

[Argo57]

Milanovich said they are looking for a lot better production from that position (nickle/sam)

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/milanovich-on-raymond-s-release-ray-s-return~939062

Big question is who will take his spot?

[Ron]

On the bright side. The last time this board was confused and upset at a player being cut the team went on to win the Cup.

[Wobbler]

Are you a millennial ?? It's referencing the game show; Let's make a Deal. I'm basically implying that Barker was ordered to make this move by ownership to save salary (bean counters)...hence door #1. You honestly don't know what's meant by the acronym CYA...Cover your ass.

If he chose not to...you could bet that ownership would oblige by picking door #2 for him at the end of the season....which means getting fired. (hence the axe reference as has been used to describe the firing of coaches and GM's forever)

dubious - means questionable or skeptical...

Hope that helps you out a bit Wobbler....you know you can find definitions on the internet now. You don't even need to open a dictionary and flip the pages of a book anymore.:)
Like all GMs, Barker has a budget to manage. Your posts make no sense.

[AngeloV]

Like all GMs, Barker has a budget to manage. Your posts make no sense.

Shocking. 😮

[Jon Gonzo]

Could be argued the defense could not be any worse with him in the lineup, so why pay him for his experience and past production in another organization.

People who follow the CFL and know about the Labour Day rule or the guaranteed salary rule after week 9 are not shocked one bit by this move. This happens throughout the league. It may not be the best thing, but it happened to Arland Bruce when he played here I believe.

Did his presence really help in the room when the going got tough?? Playing awful is playing awful. What leadership was really shown by his presence in the last 2 games particularly? It can be argued, not much.

I understand what you're trying to say about reputation in the community, as an organization, but take a look around you. Nobody, unfortunately cares about this club. Perhaps it's attributable to the fact that this organization has let QB's leave after winning the Grey Cup, and have let other up and coming QB's leave and gotten nothing in return over the years, including 2 guys very recently. I really don't think the release of a veteran DB whose best days are way behind him will hurt the reputation of this team anymore than its' reputation has been damaged by previous moves.


Well, I'll say this; I hope you are right, but unfortunately I fear you are wrong. Personally, I am always glad to be wrong on these 'fork in the road' bold roster moves that admittedly have worked for franchises (in the CFL) in the past. I think this was more about budget than it was about performance; when this team wasn't performing. There are two reasons I don't like this type of a move and both of them lead to even larger problems.

Can McFadden, Greenwood, and Issac turn in a big game? Yes, they are capable. The Line has to beat BC's O-Line and do their part. Are they the best Linebacking group in the East and can they sustain a championship level of play? This is the troubling part of the equation.

This roster move is a big gamble folks. If the D comes out and plays even worse leading up to Labour Day, I believe the future impact will be regime change.

The team is at a self imposed fork in the road.

[jerrym]

I just got back from being away and turn on the game to find out that Raymond is gone. As others have said "Wow!". The little bit of action I have seen sure didn't give me any inkling of this.

[paulwoods13]

Can't say Raymond was noticeably missed tonight.

[Reggiemac]

During the BC game it was reported that some argo players were on Raymonds back about being to slow and letting offensive players run by him. So not just a contract issue, change was coming.

[R.J]

During the BC game it was reported that some argo players were on Raymonds back about being to slow and letting offensive players run by him. So not just a contract issue, change was coming.
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/naylor-on-raymond-s-release-mitchell-s-return~941107

[1971GreyCup]

Can't say Raymond was noticeably missed tonight.

And the defence has only given up 62 points since he was released. That sure sent the message loud and clear!

[R.J]

And the defence has only given up 62 points since he was released. That sure sent the message loud and clear!
While the defence hasn't played well since the Raymond release, I don't think Raymond in the lineup would make a difference.
Stubler is clearly having issues this season. He doesn't have the veteran horses he needs, and he's clearly struggling with the pass heavy offences we're seeing in the CFL this season.

[OV Argo]

And the defence has only given up 62 points since he was released. That sure sent the message loud and clear!


Issac isn't near as good as Raymond in any way, shape or form; Raymond lost the cliched proverbial "step" - sure, ok, but speed was never his main attribute - it was defensive smarts and play-making (like returning a pick for a TD). This was about $m$ savings or else Raymond po'd somebody on the coaching staff. Bulcke was about $M$ penny pinching too - there were no better replacements for either of those 2 veteran cuts - sorry Stubler if you're blind to this.

[ArgoGabe22]

And the defence has only given up 62 points since he was released. That sure sent the message loud and clear!

Holding a team to only 16 points is pretty impressive, let alone the BC Lions. What happened in Hamilton is a different story but how much does the 4 days rest between games play a role? Defence couldn't keep up in the 2nd half and injuries were beginning to pile up.

[ArgoRavi]

Holding a team to only 16 points is pretty impressive, let alone the BC Lions. What happened in Hamilton is a different story but how much does the 4 days rest between games play a role? Defence couldn't keep up in the 2nd half and injuries were beginning to pile up.

Also Hamilton's offence has made several defences, including B.C.'s much vaunted one, look bad this year.

And regarding Brian Bulcke, is it possible that he is done? The Argos will never say that about a player but I suspect that is why they let him go. He has barely played in two and a half seasons.

[1971GreyCup]

In the past, the presence of a veteran has helped in the playoff drive and playoffs. Adriano Belli, well past his prime delivered large for the 2012 Argos. I don't recall budget cuts in August back then. Still mystified by Barker and SM!

This team has the Grey Cip gate plus the annual Fed. government subsidy plus TV money. They aren't quitefacing the baileft just yet.

[paulwoods13]

The defence with Raymond gave up 46 points to Edm at home. The defence without Raymond gave up 49 points to Hamilton on the road. Clearly we should never have cut him.

[paulwoods13]

And regarding Brian Bulcke, is it possible that he is done? The Argos will never say that about a player but I suspect that is why they let him go. He has barely played in two and a half seasons.

Yes, entirely possible. He was great -- in 2013.

[OV Argo]

The defence with Raymond gave up 46 points to Edm at home. The defence without Raymond gave up 49 points to Hamilton on the road. Clearly we should never have cut him.


Clearly - you should apply for a job as the Argo official team shill - in charge of apologizing & rationalizing for anything & everything that Barker & Millanovich do and also chiding all the Argo fan non-believers for daring to question what the football experts tell them is right about the team.

[paulwoods13]

Clearly - you should apply for a job as the Argo official team shill - in charge of apologizing & rationalizing for anything & everything that Barker & Millanovich do and also chiding all the Argo fan non-believers for daring to question what the football experts tell them is right about the team.

I don't need to apply for it -- I already got that job, obviously. As demonstrated by the fact I never say anything negative about the team. But feel free to keep touting Raymond as the lost saviour of the defence.

[1971GreyCup]

I don't need to apply for it -- I already got that job, obviously. As demonstrated by the fact I never say anything negative about the team. But feel free to keep touting Raymond as the lost saviour of the defence.

Paul, I don't think anyone, anywhere claimed Raymond "the lost saviour". I just disagreed with releasing a 7 year veteran at budget cutoff date on a team which had a dismal defence at mideason. Our DC was his defensive coordinator for years. Was he asked for input in his hiring? Firing?

Found it difficult to believe he was a bad influence in dressing room. One of many perplexing moves on a sinking ship.

[doubleblue]

I thought this young guy Gordon playing in Redmond's spot showed quite a bit of promise. Too bad we couldn't keep some of these guys more than a couple of years. It's not like Toronto's imports are better than guys like Richarson, Greene, Bowman and Cox of Montreal, Nick Lewis, Raymond and Juan Simpson in Calgary etc. etc.
IMO Inman, Ball , Okapalugo, Laing, Thorpe etc. aren't better than the previous mentioned players. But they're in the NFL.
I would love to see Barker cough up some decent money for a few of these young imports like Gordon, Jefferson, Gurley and Elliott to name a few and stop the constant turn over of the roster.

[1971GreyCup]

I thought this young guy Gordon playing in Redmond's spot showed quite a bit of promise. Too bad we couldn't keep some of these guys more than a couple of years. It's not like Toronto's imports are better than guys like Richarson, Greene, Bowman and Cox of Montreal, Nick Lewis, Raymond and Juan Simpson in Calgary etc. etc.
IMO Inman, Ball , Okapalugo, Laing, Thorpe etc. aren't better than the previous mentioned players. But they're in the NFL.
I would love to see Barker cough up some decent money for a few of these young imports like Gordon, Jefferson, Gurley and Elliott to name a few and stop the constant turn over of the roster.

Agreed!

[paulwoods13]

Paul, I don't think anyone, anywhere claimed Raymond "the lost saviour". I just disagreed with releasing a 7 year veteran at budget cutoff date on a team which had a dismal defence at mideason. Our DC was his defensive coordinator for years. Was he asked for input in his hiring? Firing?

Found it difficult to believe he was a bad influence in dressing room. One of many perplexing moves on a sinking ship.

Maybe not -- chalk it up to a sarcastic response to a snide insult. But still I have yet to hear anyone explain how the defence is demonstrably worse off without him. Game before he left -- 46 points against and horrendous defence after the first minute of the game. First game after he left -- 16 points against and a good defensive performance against a good team until the last three minutes. Next game, 49 points against, including 32 in the second half. So how, exactly, can anyone say it was a mistake to let him go? If the performance got demonstrably worse, that case could be made. But it got better, then reverted to form on a short week against a QB who is inarguably better than Jennings. Would he have made a difference in those two games? Maybe, maybe not, but there is no definitive evidence.

Was Stubler consulted on his release? Obviously the team has not said, but I cannot imagine any pro football team cutting a captain without the input of that player's position coach and co-ordinator. Was he a bad influence in the room? Seems highly doubtful in view of his history, but again we don't know. Is someone saying he was? Or is it just speculation by fans bewildered by the decision and trying to puzzle over why it happened?

There could be a million reasons he was cut. Too slow. Out of position a lot. Bad influence. Making too much money. And countless others. The nature of sport is that fans are almost never told why a vet gets cut. The teams -- and the vets -- usually prefer it that way. So we all speculate.

[Argo]

There could be a million reasons he was cut. Too slow. Out of position a lot. Bad influence. Making too much money.

As past behaviour is generally a good predictor - and the sense that this just doesn't compute - I doubt Raymond was a bad influence. The other reasons you listed are sufficient to be released.

[paulwoods13]

I doubt Raymond was a bad influence.


As do I.

[R.J]

Gordon is currently playing WILL not SAM. Isaac is who the coaching staff decided to replace Raymond's position with.

[1971GreyCup]

Arash Madani tweet "One last Argos thought from their #CFL Labour Day Classic meltdown: Why would Toronto cut Keon Raymond? They're lost on defence without him."

[ArgoGabe22]

Gordon is currently playing WILL not SAM. Isaac is who the coaching staff decided to replace Raymond's position with.

While true, wasn't BI playing in the same corps with Raymond before the release? Gordon was then moved to LB from S so then Isaac was moved to SAM. So it's not really a straight up Issac for Raymond trade but more of a combination of adding Gordon and moving Isaac so I can see why the comparison to Gordon is often made.

[R.J]

While true, wasn't BI playing in the same corps with Raymond before the release? Gordon was then moved to LB from S so then Isaac was moved to SAM. So it's not really a straight up Issac for Raymond trade but more of a combination of adding Gordon.
BI was playing Will when McFadden got injured and Greenwood was moved to Mike, then Raymond released, Greenwood injured and McFadden returns. Also worth noting that Isaac was originally Raymond's back-up, and would also come in on passing downs.

If Greenwood and McFadden are both healthy, does Gordon still start ?

[paulwoods13]

Arash Madani tweet "One last Argos thought from their #CFL Labour Day Classic meltdown: Why would Toronto cut Keon Raymond? They're lost on defence without him."


Well, that's clearly the definitive word on the subject for sure. I guess Arash was watching the blue Jays when the Argo D with Raymond got torched by Reilly and Nichols?

[ArgoRavi]

Well, that's clearly the definitive word on the subject for sure. I guess Arash was watching the blue Jays when the Argo D with Raymond got torched by Reilly and Nichols?

Good one, Paul! Why is it so hard to believe that Raymond simply wasn't playing well enough? The coaches have access to a lot more information about a player's play than we do and it wasn't like Raymond was obviously setting the world on fire with his play.

[argolio]

Arash Madani tweet "One last Argos thought from their #CFL Labour Day Classic meltdown: Why would Toronto cut Keon Raymond? They're lost on defence without him."I'd be surprised if Arash Madani has watched more than two or three Argo games this year.

Raymond is a character guy, and played great in Calgary, but made little impact here. The few plays he made were more than offset by too many missed tackles. Cut your losses and move on. What's the big deal?

[Jon Gonzo]

Paul, I don't think anyone, anywhere claimed Raymond "the lost saviour". I just disagreed with releasing a 7 year veteran at budget cutoff date on a team which had a dismal defence at mideason. Our DC was his defensive coordinator for years. Was he asked for input in his hiring? Firing?

Found it difficult to believe he was a bad influence in dressing room. One of many perplexing moves on a sinking ship.


Agreed 100%. When seemingly well laid plans go asunder, it leads to obvious questions. And to raise eyebrows does not make one negative, it makes them inquisitive and usually rather perceptive. The Keon Raymond episode begs questions as he was a main cog and a big part of their plans. People (fans) will obviously want to know what the hell happened there. I guess he didn't bounce back from injury. Maybe they needed to work him out and test his speed beforehand?

[mchesher03]

i don't see any of the outrage of raymond. as much as it sucks at times, it's football. the moment a guy like barker brings a guy in, the search begins to find his replacement - i've heard the words out of barker's mouth at least once myself. There has not been (in my opinion) any production lost in playing Isaac in that slot and I'm almost certain Isaac makes less than Raymond did or was going to. In a salary cap league, you get production where you can at the lowest price possible - we don't have to like that fact but it is what it is I'm afraid. I think the problems with the defence are at the secondary (mainly injury-related in fairness) and D Line - which I thought going into the year would be a position of strength for the Argos that has not panned out, maybe it will. Anyhow, my two cents on this one.

[Argo57]

Arash Madani tweet "One last Argos thought from their #CFL Labour Day Classic meltdown: Why would Toronto cut Keon Raymond? They're lost on defence without him."

Once again a clueless comment from Madani.
The defence has been equally ordinary all season.

[1971GreyCup]

i don't see any of the outrage of raymond. as much as it sucks at times, it's football. the moment a guy like barker brings a guy in, the search begins to find his replacement - i've heard the words out of barker's mouth at least once myself. There has not been (in my opinion) any production lost in playing Isaac in that slot and I'm almost certain Isaac makes less than Raymond did or was going to. In a salary cap league, you get production where you can at the lowest price possible - we don't have to like that fact but it is what it is I'm afraid. I think the problems with the defence are at the secondary (mainly injury-related in fairness) and D Line - which I thought going into the year would be a position of strength for the Argos that has not panned out, maybe it will. Anyhow, my two cents on this one.

Agreed. 2016 Offseason looks like it was wasted. At a critical time in the Argos franchise history, none of the veteran free agent haven't panned out on offense or defence. So called upgrades are either gone, or soon will be gone. Looks like an lost opportunity to build the brand at BMO Field. Barker is ultimately responsible.

[Argo57]

Agreed 100%. When seemingly well laid plans go asunder, it leads to obvious questions. And to raise eyebrows does not make one negative, it makes them inquisitive and usually rather perceptive. The Keon Raymond episode begs questions as he was a main cog and a big part of their plans. People (fans) will obviously want to know what the hell happened there. I guess he didn't bounce back from injury. Maybe they needed to work him out and test his speed beforehand?

Well stated Gonzo, the Argonauts really talked up this signing as a player, teammate and community leader then abruptly cut him loose.
He didn't stand out in my mind by any stretch but wouldn't Stubler know what he was getting, did he suddenly lose it overnight?
Was this a signing for signing sake?

[ArgoGabe22]

Agreed. 2016 Offseason looks like it was wasted. At a critical time in the Argos franchise history, none of the veteran free agent haven't panned out on offense or defence. So called upgrades are either gone, or soon will be gone. Looks like an lost opportunity to build the brand at BMO Field. Barker is ultimately responsible.

On paper, Bourke was the best offensive lineman available. I don't think many were even available. Barker went after him and so far has been a disappointment. But at least he tried to upgrade the line.

[Argo57]

On paper, Bourke was the best offensive lineman available. I don't think many were even available. Barker went after him and so far has been a disappointment. But at least he tried to upgrade the line.

The decline in Bourke's play this season has been shocking to say the least.
Can't fault Barker on this one, looked like a great signing at the time, addressed a major need on the O-Line.

[mchesher03]

yeah hard to fault barker on the bourke signing - i too was quite happy with it but Bourke is definitely struggling this year.

same with the D Line signings - they've been disappointing but I agreed with them at the time as well. Hindsight is always easier.

The kicker (won't endevour to spell that one out) has been a good signing at least.

[OV Argo]

Well stated Gonzo, the Argonauts really talked up this signing as a player, teammate and community leader then abruptly cut him loose.
He didn't stand out in my mind by any stretch but wouldn't Stubler know what he was getting, did he suddenly lose it overnight?
Was this a signing for signing sake?

NO, NO ! - the Barker/Millanovich apologists have it right here; Raymond & Bulcke are all of a sudden obviously useless and unable to play football anymore, and these inscrutable football geniuses are always right no matter what they do; cutting those bums was 100% the right thing to do, and Barker always has incredible talent standing by to plug in; cheaper too. What is up with you know-nothing fans daring to question this football genius Argo braintrust ?

[Scooter McCray]

I respect the braintrust that can win a GC, finish first and make the playoffs playing only 5 home games all the while contending with poor practice facilities and an indifferent fanbase. Having said that I was expecting with many of the past distractions out of the way this same braintrust would thrive and the opposite is occurring. They will likely play well on the road as this is what they are used to. They need to win the next 2 games to stay in contention.

[AngeloV]

They need to win the next 2 games to stay in contention.

I would say They need to win 4 of the next 5. Hamilton will be tough, and I still hope they can find a way to win, but I think they are more than capable of winning the 4 after that against Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal and Saskatchewan.

[Argo57]

no, no ! - the barker/millanovich apologists have it right here; raymond & bulcke are all of a sudden obviously useless and unable to play football anymore, and these inscrutable football geniuses are always right no matter what they do; cutting those bums was 100% the right thing to do, and barker always has incredible talent standing by to plug in; cheaper too. What is up with you know-nothing fans daring to question this football genius argo braintrust ?

lol ov👍👍

[doubleblue]

NO, NO ! - the Barker/Millanovich apologists have it right here; Raymond & Bulcke are all of a sudden obviously useless and unable to play football anymore, and these inscrutable football geniuses are always right no matter what they do; cutting those bums was 100% the right thing to do, and Barker always has incredible talent standing by to plug in; cheaper too. What is up with you know-nothing fans daring to question this football genius Argo braintrust ?

I guess it would be fair to question the decisions made in the off season to bring in all the veterans. Raymond, Bulcke, Hickman, Bourke and not try to sign some of the younger free agents with the money it must have cost to sign the older stars. The other question would be if the brain trusts from their former teams felt that maybe these older guys were passed their best before date, why didn't Barker and Milanovich see that also.

[argolio]

NO, NO ! - the Barker/Millanovich apologists have it right here; Raymond & Bulcke are all of a sudden obviously useless and unable to play football anymore, and these inscrutable football geniuses are always right no matter what they do; cutting those bums was 100% the right thing to do, and Barker always has incredible talent standing by to plug in; cheaper too. What is up with you know-nothing fans daring to question this football genius Argo braintrust ?So we should never cut anyone. Let's do it!

[R.J]

NO, NO ! - the Barker/Millanovich apologists have it right here; Raymond & Bulcke are all of a sudden obviously useless and unable to play football anymore, and these inscrutable football geniuses are always right no matter what they do; cutting those bums was 100% the right thing to do, and Barker always has incredible talent standing by to plug in; cheaper too. What is up with you know-nothing fans daring to question this football genius Argo braintrust ?
I'm no Barker or Milanovich apologist, but Raymond was making good money and not really performing. I don't think he was playing horribly, but he wasn't playing well either.

Bulcke, I still don't understand.

[Argo]

I'm no Barker or Milanovich apologist, but Raymond was making good money and not really performing. I don't think he was playing horribly, but he wasn't playing well either.

Bulcke, I still don't understand.

It seems like "Bulcke we hardly knew ye". It'd have been nice if the reporter covering the team had sussed out the rationale (mainly of Milanovich, I assume) for the release.

[ArgoGabe22]

It seems like "Bulcke we hardly knew ye". It'd have been nice if the reporter covering the team had sussed out the rationale (mainly of Milanovich, I assume) for the release.

Bulcke was at the last home game. It looked like he came out of one of the private boxes and in the same area where I once saw Jim Barker come out of one. I thought it was a bit strange but you could say he's still a fan.

I guess I could've asked him but that's not really my job.

[Ron]

So we should never cut anyone. Let's do it!

Right on! No other CFL team has ever made a move like this before. Only this regime.

[Jon Gonzo]

So we should never cut anyone. Let's do it!

Fan sites (like this one) are constantly full of advice on who the team should cut next. Funny, I don't recall Keon Raymond's name mentioned? Hmmm.

[paulwoods13]

I guess it would be fair to question the decisions made in the off season to bring in all the veterans. Raymond, Bulcke, Hickman, Bourke and not try to sign some of the younger free agents with the money it must have cost to sign the older stars. The other question would be if the brain trusts from their former teams felt that maybe these older guys were passed their best before date, why didn't Barker and Milanovich see that also.

Which younger free agents, specifically?

[paulwoods13]

Has no one even contemplated the possibility that Calgary's mighty "Huf" might simply have reached the same conclusion Barker and Milanovich did, but eight games sooner? Do we know if Calgary offered him a new contract? If so, do we know how much he was offered? They might have been quite happy to let him walk, just as we were quite happy to let Owens walk. Difference being that Owens has performed at a noticeably high level for his new team, whereas Raymond did not.

[R.J]

Has no one even contemplated the possibility that Calgary's mighty "Huf" might simply have reached the same conclusion Barker and Milanovich did, but eight games sooner? Do we know if Calgary offered him a new contract? If so, do we know how much he was offered? They might have been quite happy to let him walk, just as we were quite happy to let Owens walk. Difference being that Owens has performed at a noticeably high level for his new team, whereas Raymond did not.
Hufnagel wanted to keep Raymond around, but at a significantly lower rate.

[paulwoods13]

Hufnagel wanted to keep Raymond around, but at a significantly lower rate.

Not so sure about that. There's nothing in any of these stories that indicates any real desire on Calgary's part to re-sign him. May have made a lowball offer that was easy for him to refuse just so they didn't have to say No the way Argos did to Owens.

https://www.google.ca/webhp?hl=en&tab=mw&ei=YZByUuD5EOSM0AWj3oCQAw&ved=0CAUQqS4oAg&gws_rd=cr#hl=en&q=John+Hufnagel+Keon+Raymond+free+agent

[AngeloV]

Hufnagel wanted to keep Raymond around, but at a significantly lower rate.

Are you sure about that? Quite often when a player of that type is no longer part of the plans, good things are said about him in an effort for the club to take the high road. Stamps coverage looked pretty bad late in the year against the Esks, so that may have been what really led to the decision to make a change and go younger.

[R.J]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/keon-raymond-traded-farewell-letter-1.3447111

"We were in discussions with Keon and his agent right until the end and the door was always open for him to remain in Calgary," said Stampeders general manager John Hufnagel.

"But ultimately he made the decision that the situation in Toronto was better for him," he added.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2016/02/11/keon-raymond-signs-with-toronto-argonauts

While the Stamps were in the mix until the end, GM John Hufnagel still wasn’t willing to table the type of contract Raymond was looking for throughout the free-agent process, which was compounded by the fact there was a clear desire to inject some new blood into the defence.

“My number was probably a bit outlandish at first, but what do you expect from a guy who’s set records and has been a consistent playmaker over the years?,” Raymond said.

“I appreciate Huff calling and talking to him and even kind of putting my agent to the side, we just kind of tried to rely on the relationship that we had built over the last couple of years,” Raymond added of a last-ditch effort to get a deal done to stay. “It just didn’t work out.”

[AngeloV]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/keon-raymond-traded-farewell-letter-1.3447111


http://www.calgarysun.com/2016/02/11/keon-raymond-signs-with-toronto-argonauts

And as I said:

Quite often when a player of that type is no longer part of the plans, good things are said about him in an effort for the club to take the high road

[Ron]

I'm still waiting for any CFL team to just grab him!

[R.J]

So Raymond says that Hufnagel himself called him to get a deal done, but "when a player of that type is no longer part of the plans, good things are said about him in an effort for the club to take the high road" ?

Whatever you say Angelo.

[paulwoods13]

And as I said:

Quite often when a player of that type is no longer part of the plans, good things are said about him in an effort for the club to take the high road

Yep. Those quotes from Hufnagel are far from confirmation of actual interest in retaining him.

[AngeloV]

So Raymond says that Hufnagel himself called him to get a deal done, but "when a player of that type is no longer part of the plans, good things are said about him in an effort for the club to take the high road" ?

Whatever you say Angelo.

Well, we can't all have that direct line to the conversations that you do.

There is so much more that none of us know. I'll bet they offered him a chance to compete, with no guarantees he would start, or even compete. Something he very likely would have had no interest in.

[R.J]

Well, we can't all have that direct line to the conversations that you do.

There is so much more that none of us know. I'll bet they offered him a chance to compete, with no guarantees he would start, or even compete. Something he very likely would have had no interest in.
Coming from you this is hilarious.

Weren't you just saying not long ago that Collaros "left because of Braleys ownership" or how Collaros "might have made more money had he stayed here" or how Barker would have promised Collaros lots of playing action in 2014. LMAO

[AngeloV]

Coming from you this is hilarious.

Weren't you just saying not long ago that Collaros "left because of Braleys ownership" or how Collaros "might have made more money had he stayed here" or how Barker would have promised Collaros lots of playing action in 2014. LMAO

All of my comments were made as hypotheticals and I never once said it was fact. Just because something is told to a reporter doesn't mean it is fact.

[R.J]

All of my comments were made as hypotheticals and I never once said it was fact. Just because something is told to a reporter doesn't mean it is fact.
You were pretty adamant that Collaros left because of Braley, and that Collaros didn't leave, because he wouldn't have been the guy here, even though all the evidence heavily imples he left to be "the guy".

So, now even when writers cite sources it shouldn't be believed ?
Why do we even have writers then ?

Because according to paul in the Milanvich hot seat debate:

He said the cries for change are getting louder, without giving a source of those alleged cries. Implies he's in the know. Even if he had said "a source close to the team says ownership is getting impatient" we'd at least have had some reason to think there might be validity to this. But this casually tossed off, unattributed statement has zero credibility as far as I'm concerned.

But now you telling me even when sources are cited, it shouldn't be believed either. Which is it ? Source, no source, or do neither matter ?

[paulwoods13]

Everyone digging in deeper. Argo fans seem to have a unique ability to hate on each other.

[Argocister]

Everyone digging in deeper. Argo fans seem to have a unique ability to hate on each other.

Really is a shame

[Argo]

Really is a shame

"Turn the poison into medicine."
From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPFXC3q1tTg&list=PLFT-q6IUNLEEIdVFXylP8q41axib6ycOn

[OV Argo]

Everyone digging in deeper. Argo fans seem to have a unique ability to hate on each other.



You really haven't visited other CFL fan sites much, or else didn't pay attention if you believe this. This site is tame and amicable compared to many others I've viewed. Homer cheerleaders who don't like to hear anything negative about their team might be inclined to interpret things this way? - only thing I can think of to explain your thinking there ?

[AngeloV]

Even though I like Raymond very much as a person, I'm stating the believe the Argos did the right thing in releasing him. Their outside LB's with Issaac and Gordon seem to close the gaps a lot faster than they did with Raymond there. They did a great job against the bubble screen today, something the Argos REALLY struggled with earlier.

[Argo]

Even though I like Raymond very much as a person, I'm stating the believe the Argos did the right thing in releasing him. Their outside LB's with Issaac and Gordon seem to close the gaps a lot faster than they did with Raymond there. They did a great job against the bubble screen today, something the Argos REALLY struggled with earlier.

He signed, he played, he didn't conquer. Time had caught up with him, and I also think that he was properly released.

[Will]

Everyone digging in deeper. Argo fans seem to have a unique ability to hate on each other.

Kind of the nature of message boards really. The Blue Jays message board here (www.bluejaysmessageboard.com) is pretty brutal and I don't know if anyone was familiar with the old Sportsnet boards circa 2003-2004, but they take the cake IMO.

At the end of the day, a 4-game losing streak will really exacerbate things to the point where IMO the hate on may look worse than it actually is.

[Argo57]

Kind of the nature of message boards really. The Blue Jays message board here (www.bluejaysmessageboard) is pretty brutal and I don't know if anyone was familiar with the old Sportsnet boards circa 2003-2004, but they take the cake IMO.

At the end of the day, a 4-game losing streak will really exacerbate things to the point where IMO the hate on may look worse than it actually is.

Nothing like a big win against your arch rival to hit the reset button.

[1971GreyCup]

We know know why Raymond and Bulckle were expendable - I suspect Barker has been eyeing Willy's huge contract for a while now.

[AngeloV]

We know know why Raymond and Bulckle were expendable - I suspect Barker has been eyeing Willy's huge contract for a while now.

Or maybe the fact that they weren't as good as the Argos had hoped had something to do with their releases.

[1971GreyCup]

Or maybe the fact that they weren't as good as the Argos had hoped had something to do with their releases.

That maybe be true, but we just bit off about ~ the same contract size as the 2 contracts we got rid of. I don't think it can entirely be a coincidence.

[ArgoRavi]

Or maybe the fact that they weren't as good as the Argos had hoped had something to do with their releases.

You would think that the Argos have released two Hall of Famers in the prime of their careers considering how much consternation these two cuts have caused among some fans.

[paulwoods13]

Their outside LB's with Issaac and Gordon seem to close the gaps a lot faster than they did with Raymond there. They did a great job against the bubble screen today, something the Argos REALLY struggled with earlier.

Yep. Both guys are playing very well. Interesting that for most of yesterday's game we went with a 4-2-6 alignment whereas on Labour Day we mostly went 3-4-5. At times yesterday we went 3-9, essentially, with Isaac/Gordon and no fewer than seven DBs. Surprised Ham made so little effort to run the ball. I daresay SM et al outcoached KA et al for a change.

[Argo]

I daresay SM et al outcoached KA et al for a change.

Something must have been cooking, because the Argos dominated the third quarter. How very refreshing that was!

[1971GreyCup]

You would think that the Argos have released two Hall of Famers in the prime of their careers considering how much consternation these two cuts have caused among some fans.

No, just maybe the big deal Barker made when he brought them in. Veteran presence that would round out the D.

[ArgoGabe22]

The Stampeders have released big FA signing, Taylor Reed. So it looks like Barker isn't the only one.

[ArgoRavi]

The Stampeders have released big FA signing, Taylor Reed. So it looks like Barker isn't the only one.

Ottawa also released Jermaine Robinson the other day.

[OV Argo]

The Stampeders have released big FA signing, Taylor Reed. So it looks like Barker isn't the only one.


Rookie MLB Alex Singleton has made more plays / been more impressive than Reed when he has played on the Stamps D this season IMO = the release makes some sense ; they have a better guy as a replacement who is also probably making less coin; not like Reed was some sort of proven CFL vet leader for their D or on their team in any way.

[paulwoods13]

No, just maybe the big deal Barker made when he brought them in. Veteran presence that would round out the D.

Every free agent is talked up by the team that signed him. In most cases the team actually believes the hype (otherwise why sign him?). But you still have to do it on the field. If you don't, you get cut. Happens all the time.

[gilthethrill]

Ottawa also released Jermaine Robinson the other day.

I would like to see him brought in to play HB.

[ArgoGabe22]

Keon Raymond added to the Ti Cats Practice Roster

http://ticats.ca/?p=37448

[1971GreyCup]

I had almost forgotten Raymond's release after a season of dismantling of the Argos. Especially with the recent jaw dropping player moves. I only wish we'd go far enough to play some of these players in 2016. That is unlikely, but we'll still be able to judge the outcomes by their contributions and be able to adjust accordingly after the Grey Cup.

[AngeloV]

Keon Raymond added to the Ti Cats Practice Roster

http://ticats.ca/?p=37448

Opening the door for huge corner routes from the most inside receiver on an overload. Raymond can't cover anymore.

[1971GreyCup]

Opening the door for huge corner routes from the most inside receiver on an overload. Raymond can't cover anymore.

Didn't SM get rid of Brandon Issaacs in 2013? I recall that player move really works out well for the Argos in the Eastern Finals on our way to repeat as Eastern representatives in the 2013 Grey Cup.

[AngeloV]

Didn't SM get rid of Brandon Issaacs in 2013? I recall that player move really works out well for the Argos in the Eastern Finals on our way to repeat as Eastern representatives in the 2013 Grey Cup.

Actually it was a conflict with Chris Jones that led to Issac's release. Similar to the guys that just got released, he wasn't being a team guy. Took him a year and a half away from the game to realize he was wrong. Somehow, I don't see the 3 receivers ever figuring that out.

[1971GreyCup]

No similarities at all. Bad locker room guys never reform and they never come back to haunt you. I totally agree.

[AngeloV]

No similarities at all. Bad locker room guys never reform and they never come back to haunt you. I totally agree.

I agree, the comparison was wrong. But he is no longer the player he once was, and there was no need keeping him.

[Jon Gonzo]

Rookie MLB Alex Singleton has made more plays / been more impressive than Reed when he has played on the Stamps D this season IMO = the release makes some sense ; they have a better guy as a replacement who is also probably making less coin; not like Reed was some sort of proven CFL vet leader for their D or on their team in any way.


Argos could have taken Singleton and had a two Canadian Linebacking tandem. We'll have to watch how that develops. Lack of stability at MLB has hurt this team. On good teams the MLB is the centerpiece leader and play caller/ signs reader.

[1971GreyCup]

Didn't Raymond have an interception that he returned for a TD on his last game and was then released? TJ Heath had two, then traded. I can see why the Argos DB chose why not to squeeze that ball on Saturday for an interception!

[doubleblue]

Didn't Raymond have an interception that he returned for a TD on his last game and was then released? TJ Heath had two, then traded. I can see why the Argos DB chose why not to squeeze that ball on Saturday for an interception!

Yah, we hardly got in our seats when Raymond picked that ball for a TD. Was right in front of me and he looked to be motoring plenty fast enough for an OLB. Makes me wonder if it was more than a money thing. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the vets were questioning just how things were being done when they had seen a more successful way of doing things with their previous teams. There has to be a common denominator with all these cuts this year, can't be all a money issue, and we know it wasn't all a talent issue. I think it would have been better to ride things out this year with who they started with, added a few NFL cuts and made the big changes in the off season. Probably would have made the playoffs the way things have shaken out this year. Something is rotten in the State of Denmark as Hamlet would say.

[Jon Gonzo]

Getting rid of your defensive captain, trading the interception leading DB and cutting of your regular (star?) receivers during the regular season is probably unprecedented. If it isn't, it has probably never been met with success. These are low percentage transactions that countless horrible teams have not even entertained. Looks really bad on Team Management. To start, you don't make a vet free agent signing your Defensive Captain -- if he can't cover anymore. In fact, don't even sign him in the first place. It's all been dumb.

[Argo]

Getting rid of your defensive captain, trading you interception leading DB and cutting of your regular (star?) receivers during the regular season is probably unprecedented. If it isn't, it has probably never been met with success. These are low percentage transactions that countless horrible teams have not even entertained. Looks really bad on Team Management. To start, you don't make a vet free agent signing your Defensive Captain -- if he can't cover anymore. In fact, don't even sign him in the first place. It's all been dumb.

Team Mismanagement

[ArgoGabe22]

Yah, we hardly got in our seats when Raymond picked that ball for a TD. Was right in front of me and he looked to be motoring plenty fast enough for an OLB. Makes me wonder if it was more than a money thing. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the vets were questioning just how things were being done when they had seen a more successful way of doing things with their previous teams. There has to be a common denominator with all these cuts this year, can't be all a money issue, and we know it wasn't all a talent issue. I think it would have been better to ride things out this year with who they started with, added a few NFL cuts and made the big changes in the off season. Probably would have made the playoffs the way things have shaken out this year. Something is rotten in the State of Denmark as Hamlet would say.

From what I have read, it seemed like no one on the team was actually surprised with the Raymond release. Forget the article but it said that they were watching film and Raymond didn't do much and got called out on it. To paraphrase, his excuse was that he knew what he was doing and was in the right spot. Heath was another story. Players were shocked.

[OV Argo]

Getting rid of your defensive captain, trading you interception leading DB and cutting of your regular (star?) receivers during the regular season is probably unprecedented. If it isn't, it has probably never been met with success. These are low percentage transactions that countless horrible teams have not even entertained. Looks really bad on Team Management. To start, you don't make a vet free agent signing your Defensive Captain -- if he can't cover anymore. In fact, don't even sign him in the first place. It's all been dumb.

Agreed.

I said back when the big 3 trade was made that it was probably a CFL historic type move. There may be some real CFL historians here (Ravi is one for sure) with way better memories than my *** damaged one, but I cannot recall a CFL team EVER making that kind of move, mid-season, while they were still in a play-off hunt. Has any team EVER cut 3 starting - receivers, O-Linemen, DBs - all at the same time mid-season? I doubt it.

I don't buy much of the Argo party line about all these moves either; Raymond can't cover or play OLB anymore? Bulcke cut after one game to see what he could do - at a position of real weakness this season? the trade of Heath AND a 1st round draft pick for an unproven, limited talent QB that you could have got in the off-season anyways ? Is Bourke really hurt and thus can\t play or are they just scape-goating him cause he makes big coin, and maybe missed one or two blocks this season (little note there - ALL starting OTs in football miss some blocks and get beat sometimes in a season), - i find it next to impossible to believe that Bourke - one of the best if not the best CFL OT in the last decade, has all of a sudden totally lost it ? ALL 3 of the Gurley, Hazelton & Elliott had to be cut? - total bull$hite IMO - cut one or two to make an example and keep an excellent talent like Gurley to see if he gets it and improves his play & work.

Dumb. clueless, shoddy, mis-managed, desparate, panicked - lots of applicable terms come to mind.

:shhhh:

[ArgoRavi]

Agreed.

I said back when the big 3 trade was made that it was probably a CFL historic type move. There may be some real CFL historians here (Ravi is one for sure) with way better memories than my *** damaged one, but I cannot recall a CFL team EVER making that kind of move, mid-season, while they were still in a play-off hunt. Has any team EVER cut 3 starting - receivers, O-Linemen, DBs - all at the same time mid-season? I doubt it.

The only move that I can recall that was comparable to this was when the 1980 Alouettes released five veterans in one day (it was called Black Friday or whatever day of the week it happened on). The '80 Als were a team on the decline after a terrific run which saw them play in Grey Cups in five of six seasons with two wins. That particular bloodletting did have an immediate effect as they beat the Argos in their next game but didn't slow down the decline all that much as they finished 8-8 and were beaten in the East Final by Hamilton.

[1971GreyCup]

Looks like Keon Raymond is starting for the Ticats tomorrow. We'll see if he has lost it as so many on here claim!