Sep. 5: Argonauts at Tiger-Cats

[PullTogether73]

Don't see a game thread so I thought I would start one.

I don't like the Argonauts chances in this game.:(

[Al&Kat]

agreed based on this : what have we seen lately that would give us any reason for optimism?
Maybe that the Ticats are undisciplined as a team, and take way too many penalties, but man I'm really reaching for straws with that one.

You might say the Defence is the weakest piece for Hamilton, but DITTO FOR THE ARGOS!

[AngeloV]

Don't see a game thread so I thought I would start one.

I don't like the Argonauts chances in this game.:(

There you go ruining the game day thread already.

You do know it's Argonauts at Tiger-Cats and not Tiger-Cats at Argonauts, right?

:D

[Argo57]

Hamilton is superior in all facets of the game.
Hope the Argonauts bring their A game so they don't get embarrassed.

[argolio]

We have the road advantage, and we're playing against a weak-ass East team. We got this!

[PullTogether73]

There you go ruining the game day thread already.

You do know it's Argonauts at Tiger-Cats and not Tiger-Cats at Argonauts, right?

:D

CRAP!!!

I'll claim schedule dyslexia for that error.:ohno:

[PullTogether73]

We have the road advantage, and we're playing against a weak-ass East team. We got this!

LOL!
Yes, the way this season has gone with the home team losing most games, we have the Cats exactly where we want them.
:p

[mint83]

Both defences have issues but the Cats offence is far superior. Ray could not even beat Misoli is last years playoff game.

Plus, Milanovich always gets outcoached by Austin.

Chances of a win are low.

[Neely2005]

Both defences have issues but the Cats offence is far superior. Ray could not even beat Misoli is last years playoff game.

Plus, Milanovich always gets outcoached by Austin.

Chances of a win are low.

Yes it was Ray's fault that 2 receivers crashed into each other in the endzone and dropped a perfectly catchable touchdown pass.

And it was definitely Ray's fault that Waters missed makeable field goals.

[Stevoman]

Argos don't win in Southern Ontario and so the next two weeks look bleak but maybe they'll surprise us!

[ArgoTD]

While my heart is hoping for an upset win, my head is simply hoping that they can be competitive with the Tigercats. We just do not have the skill in some key positions and our ability to make adjustments to what other teams do is non-existent. The fact we aren't playing at home though may be a blessing as having our own stadium and fantastic locker room facilities certainly hasn't resulted in wins.

[Ron]

Argos just lost on a last second FG to the best team in the league. The Cats will be a refreshing picnic by comparison.

[AngeloV]

Looks like Hall and Hickman are both questionable to doubtful for Monday. Joshua Mitchell returns from injury in the secondary this week and Gabriel likely back next Sunday. Gonna be a tough 2 games, but obviously I am hopeful for a surprising outcome. Cory Greenwood likely out another 3-4 weeks.

[R.J]

Argos just lost on a last second FG to the best team in the league. The Cats will be a refreshing picnic by comparison.
Argonauts lost to the Calgary Stampeders on Wednesday ?

[Reggiemac]

While its true that the road teams are doing well this year the ticats are arguably the third best team in the cfl now so no pushover. But our defence may be starting the same DBs for the second straight game which should help and if the offence can stay agressive we have a chance . A lot of players need to step up and play better. Bourque has been a big disappointment and his lack of persistence directly contributed to Ricky Rays injury which came at a time when he was playing very well and now our season is in jeopardy. And we still need a RB that instills fear in defences. We are getting close so hopefully this game will be another step forward. One could argue that we were one offside penalty away from winning the BC game.

[ArgoRavi]

Are some on here overrating the Ticats? You would think that they were 9-0 the way some talk about this team. They have the exact same record as our Argos though.

[R.J]

and if the offence can stay agressive we have a chance.
The Argos have an aggressive offense ?
Last in Passing and total offensive yards. 7th in scoring.

Are some on here overrating the Ticats? You would think that they were 9-0 the way some talk about this team. They have the exact same record as our Argos though.
If the Ticats can fix their defence, they're the beasts of the East. With Collaros back, their offence has looked better. While their special teams play hasn't been that great the last couple of games, they still do have a solid group there, and are well coached. Defence is a bit of an issue, with the amount of FA's that left and some injuries as well, so let's see what Steinauer is really made of. Austin has outcoached Milanovich quite a few times now, so give the coaching nod to the Ticats. The Ticats are the better team Ravi, and it could easily be argued that they're record doesn't do them justice. Just like it could be argued that the Argonauts record is flattering.

[REAL]

Yes it was Ray's fault that 2 receivers crashed into each other in the endzone and dropped a perfectly catchable touchdown pass.

And it was definitely Ray's fault that Waters missed makeable field goals.

where are those 2 receivers now .......

[Argo57]

Are some on here overrating the Ticats? You would think that they were 9-0 the way some talk about this team. They have the exact same record as our Argos though.

Are some on here overrating the Argos?

[Argo]

Argonauts lost to the Calgary Stampeders on Wednesday ?

e.x.a.c.t.l.y

[gilthethrill]

Looks like Hall and Hickman are both questionable to doubtful for Monday. Joshua Mitchell returns from injury in the secondary this week and Gabriel likely back next Sunday. Gonna be a tough 2 games, but obviously I am hopeful for a surprising outcome. Cory Greenwood likely out another 3-4 weeks.

Frank made it sound like Hall and Hickman were being benched. Hickman has been ok, but I really don't like all the rotating that goes on. I want Lemon on the field a lot more so he can get in a groove...he is out best pass rusher....put him to use more. Hope Aaron Berry comes back soon, I thought he was pretty decent at CB. I am not optimistic that the Argos will put up much of resistance on Monday.

[R.J]

e.x.a.c.t.l.y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfB1VdNWtEU



Are some on here overrating the Argos?
https://cdn.meme.am/instances/65246770.jpg

Frank made it sound like Hall and Hickman were being benched. Hickman has been ok, but I really don't like all the rotating that goes on. I want Lemon on the field a lot more so he can get in a groove...he is out best pass rusher....put him to use more.
If true that Hall and Hickman are getting benched: good news. To put it mildly, I wasn't crazy about bringing either in. I thought Laurent made Hall look better than he was, and Hickman hasn't been the same since returning from the NFL.

Agreed on Lemon: by far our best defensive linemen, and he needs to see the field a lot more.

[Wobbler]

Looks like Hall and Hickman are both questionable to doubtful for Monday. Joshua Mitchell returns from injury in the secondary this week and Gabriel likely back next Sunday. Gonna be a tough 2 games, but obviously I am hopeful for a surprising outcome. Cory Greenwood likely out another 3-4 weeks.
Thanks Angelo. I'm sure you're referencing Zicarelli, but a link would be appreciated.

[R.J]

Thanks Angelo. I'm sure you're referencing Zicarelli, but a link would be appreciated.
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/09/02/now-things-get-serious-for-argonauts

[Wobbler]

My favourite play of Wednesday's game was the penalty-negated (sigh) third quarter pass to Durie. AD caught it at full speed, shrugged off defenders, and demonstrated (I thought) his usual power.

Elliot's twitchiness killed the play, but I thought: we'll see that again, because it worked!

We didn't, however, and I don't know why. Hopefully we've been saving him for the all-important Labour day tête-à-têtes!

[AngeloV]

Thanks Angelo. I'm sure you're referencing Zicarelli, but a link would be appreciated.

Sorry, I was posting from my tablet, and quite useless without a mouse or hot keys as far as copy and paste goes. I see SnowRogue posted the link, so thanks for that.

[jerrym]

Are some on here overrating the Ticats? You would think that they were 9-0 the way some talk about this team. They have the exact same record as our Argos though.

I don't think I'm overrating the Ticats but while they are definitely not world-beaters, they have been much more consistent on offence than the Argos, to put it kindly. Furthermore, the Ticats are coming off an 8 day break while the Argos are going on short rest - 5 days, which plays enormously to the Ticats advantage, especially late in the game as the Argos tire. For the Argos, IMO, it depends on whether the offence can take some pressure off the defence by putting some points on the board and whether the defence can play close to the way it played against BC.
The one thing going for the Argos is that Labour Day often involves upsets by a team wanting to show its fans that it is not a pushover against its most-hated rival.

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> depth chart for tomorrow night&#39;s <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/LDWeekend?src=hash">#LDWeekend</a> game in Hamilton. <a href="https://t.co/xsuSZU489j">pic.twitter.com/xsuSZU489j</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts PR (@Argonauts_PR) <a href="https://twitter.com/Argonauts_PR/status/772478326778781696">September 4, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/tphcanada">@tphcanada</a> Depth Chart:<br><br>Here is how the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ticats?src=hash">#Ticats</a> will line up tomorrow against the <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos">@TorontoArgos</a>. <a href="https://t.co/5jVmJmiSla">pic.twitter.com/5jVmJmiSla</a></p>&mdash; Hamilton Tiger-Cats (@Ticats) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ticats/status/772449427697102848">September 4, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[gilthethrill]

I don't think I'm overrating the Ticats but while they are definitely not world-beaters, they have been much more consistent on offence than the Argos, to put it kindly. Furthermore, the Ticats are coming off an 8 day break while the Argos are going on short rest - 5 days, which plays enormously to the Ticats advantage, especially late in the game as the Argos tire. For the Argos, IMO, it depends on whether the offence can take some pressure off the defence by putting some points on the board and whether the defence can close to the way it played against BC.
The one thing going for the Argos is that Labour Day often involves upsets by a team wanting to show its fans that it is not a pushover against its most-hated rival.

What rots my socks Jerry is that despite losing their OC just prior to TC, starting the season with their #2 QB, the Cats have had a much better offense than the Argos. Had that happened to the Boatmen, there would have been plenty of excuses to go around.

[Argo]

The #Argos (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash) depth chart for tomorrow night's #LDWeekend (https://twitter.com/hashtag/LDWeekend?src=hash) game in Hamilton. pic.twitter.com/xsuSZU489j (https://t.co/xsuSZU489j)
— Toronto Argonauts PR (@Argonauts_PR) September 4, 2016 (https://twitter.com/Argonauts_PR/status/772478326778781696)
<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

.@tphcanada (https://twitter.com/tphcanada) Depth Chart:

Here is how the #Ticats (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ticats?src=hash) will line up tomorrow against the @TorontoArgos (https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos). pic.twitter.com/5jVmJmiSla (https://t.co/5jVmJmiSla)
— Hamilton Tiger-Cats (@Ticats) September 4, 2016 (https://twitter.com/Ticats/status/772449427697102848)
<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

LeFevour should be the backup QB, not Kilgore.

[AngeloV]

I don't think I'm overrating the Ticats but while they are definitely not world-beaters, they have been much more consistent on offence than the Argos, to put it kindly. Furthermore, the Ticats are coming off an 8 day break while the Argos are going on short rest - 5 days, which plays enormously to the Ticats advantage, especially late in the game as the Argos tire. For the Argos, IMO, it depends on whether the offence can take some pressure off the defence by putting some points on the board and whether the defence can close to the way it played against BC.
The one thing going for the Argos is that Labour Day often involves upsets by a team wanting to show its fans that it is not a pushover against its most-hated rival.

Jerry, great to see you back posting here. You were missed by a few of us.

[gilthethrill]

Jerry, great to see you back posting here. You were missed by a few of us.

Agreed. A few of us would miss you as well AV!

[Argo]

The one thing going for the Argos is that Labour Day often involves upsets by a team wanting to show its fans that it is not a pushover against its most-hated rival.


This will be the 46th Labour Day Classic meeting between the Argonauts and Tiger-Cats.
The Hamilton Tiger-Cats hold a convincing record in the contests going 31-13-1 (.689 winning percentage).
Since joining the Tiger-Cats, Zach Collaros is 2-0 in the annual game while Ricky Ray is 1-1 for the Argonauts and 5-5 overall in Labour Classic starts
The Tiger-Cats have not lost a Labour Day Classic at Tim Hortons Field, going 2-0 in that span.
The last time Toronto won a Labour Day Classic was on September 3, 2012 where they pulled off a 33-30 win at Ivor Wynne Stadium.
In that win, the Argonauts scored 22 points in the fourth quarter including a final minute field goal by Swayze Waters to give the boatmen the victory.

[AngeloV]

Agreed. A few of us would miss you as well AV!

And a few would throw a party.

:D

[Wobbler]

Back to eight Nationals this week. It's time to see whether Waud is starter material! If Bishop is rested and back to his original form that'll certainly help.

[jerrym]

Jerry, great to see you back posting here. You were missed by a few of us.

Thanks to both you and glitterhill.

[ArgoGabe22]

It might be hard to believe but the Argos enter Labour Day with a 3-0 road record and a five-game road winning streak.

[Reggiemac]

Our offence played agressively in the first half of the BC game but folded their tent in the 4th quarter when we hadvthe wind and needed to score badly, playing it safe cost usvthe game.

[FenderGuy69]

This will be the 46th Labour Day Classic meeting between the Argonauts and Tiger-Cats.
The Hamilton Tiger-Cats hold a convincing record in the contests going 31-13-1 (.689 winning percentage).
Since joining the Tiger-Cats, Zach Collaros is 2-0 in the annual game while Ricky Ray is 1-1 for the Argonauts and 5-5 overall in Labour Classic starts
The Tiger-Cats have not lost a Labour Day Classic at Tim Hortons Field, going 2-0 in that span.
The last time Toronto won a Labour Day Classic was on September 3, 2012 where they pulled off a 33-30 win at Ivor Wynne Stadium.
In that win, the Argonauts scored 22 points in the fourth quarter including a final minute field goal by Swayze Waters to give the boatmen the victory.


Great info @Argo! Here's a little more on the history and matchup in general. (Or how to sound smart at the pre-game tailgate!)

226th regular season game played between them dating since 1950. Hamilton owns the edge 130-93-2 all time. If you add the 41 games played by the Argos versus the Tigers & Wildcats ... this will be game 267!!! That's absolutely incredible to imagine!
HAM has won last 4 versus TOR and 7 of the last 9.
It the most recent 4 game run it has been turnovers and sacks. 15:4 Turnover Ration in favour of the TiCats & 14-8 margin in sacks again in favour of the Tabbies.


Zach is 4-2 versus the Argos. Ricky is 17-9 versus Hamilton
Milanovitch is 6-8 versus HAM as HC while Austin is 8-4 versus the boatman
Ricky Ray is the ALL-TIME leading passer in LD Weekend games with 2,869 yards.
Interesting that in the FG kicking department, it is very even. Maher after a slow start is connecting on 87.5% of his attempts while Lirim The Leg is @ 86.4%. (Also look for the Hajrullahu Family in the stands as they are from just down the road in St. Catharines. You'll see about 10 in a row!)

As Captain Obvious would say ... this'll come down to BIG Plays, Sacks & Turnovers most likely. So far this year ...

HAM is -1 in T/O Ratio. TOR is even at zero.
Both HAM & TOR have allowed a whopping 68 points off turnovers! HAM has scored 68 pts off their takeaways while TOR has only scored 35.
TOR has only made 16 "BIG" plays thus far versus HAM's 30. (Big Plays" = Rushes of 20+ yds, Completions of 30+ yds, Punt Returns & Missed FG Returns of 30+ yds, K/O Rets of 40+ yds.)
TOR has given up 26 BIG Plays to HAM's 20.
Both Teams have allowed 23 sacks while HAM has made 29 to TOR's 20 in that department

Safe travels to all Argo Fans coming to THF for the game. It'll be a busy one with the MAC/UT game early, a country music concert in the afternoon and then a sold-out game of course.

Here's to a close, competitive and entertaining game. I am definitely excited to see both teams close in the standings and playing relatively healthy in what is an extremely important game for both clubs!

[argoscott]

Looking forward to Argos Ticat game, currently watching Edm/Cal...no doubt as always I am the minority viewpoint, but I have always hated NFL talk on CFL broadcasts. I understand it might come up on occasion speaking of a particular player in a legit way, but I absolutely hate reference to the NFL unnecessarily such as Rod Black saying Football season is just getting underway, CFL and Canuck College, I did not appreciate the reference to the NFL, and NO it had nothing to do with the fact they carry NFL, it was unnecessary to mention that as he did.

The way Glen Suitor druels when he speaks of the NFL I do not appreciate, sure its fine if you are talking about a player that made stops in the NFL fine, but keep it to a minimum

You youngsters would not understand I guess, if I wanted to watch or hear about the NFL I would tune into a NFL game, I dont want to tune into CFL football and hear all about the NFL...Now many of you may watch NFL football, I only follow it on occasion over the years if one of my CFL faves goes down, yes I watched Gil The Thrill in New Orleans, And for sure Doug Flutie fanatically in Buffalo, and even SD, They were both , particularly Flutie ambassadors of the CFL, WAS GREAT SEEING Flutie telling the press that Bills Dolphins reminded him of the Esks, Stamps CFL rivalry etc, was always talking up the CFL

But no I dont want to hear about the NFL watching CFL, no thank you... True die hard CFL fans are not die hard NFL fans, sorry folks

Yes I kept an eye on Warren Moon, Cedric Minter, Dieter Brock, and even CFL coaches rooted for them, such as Riley and Huff and Clemons just to name a few

[Wobbler]

It's fine to not care about the NFL, of course, but I'd bet that plenty of "true die hard CFL fans" are NFL fans as well. I think TSN's coverage does a pretty good job of providing useful NFL info without distracting from its coverage of our league.

[Wobbler]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">INACTIVES: <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ticats?src=hash">#Ticats</a> LB Will Smith, DT Linden Gaydosh. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> WR Vidal Hazelton &amp; OL DJ Sackey. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/LDWeekend?src=hash">#LDWeekend</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HamOnt?src=hash">#HamOnt</a></p>&mdash; Rick Zamperin (@rickzamperin) <a href="https://twitter.com/rickzamperin/status/772911693319983104">September 5, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Shaw didn't do much last week and I was wondering whether Hazelton might dress today. Nope.

[jerrym]

Justin Hickman's perspective on the Labour Day game coming from an Argo perspective for the first time.



“It’s going to be different going in there, but it’ll be fun. Hostile crowd, old friends, it’ll be a good time,” Hickman said, now nine games into his first season (http://www.argonauts.ca/2016/03/02/argos-lock-up-de-justin-hickman/)with the Argos after five years with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.
The outlying factors in the game — his first time at Tim Hortons Field as an opponent, his team playing in what’s usually the highest-profile regular-season game on the schedule on the road — don’t really matter to him. There’s a job to be done, the 31-year-old said, and you just have to go out and do it.
“For the most part it’s not a big deal — it’s going out there and making the plays you need to to get the win,” he said.

Still, when he gets out on that field Monday evening with 24,000 fans cheering or booing, Hickman can’t wait to look beyond the Tiger-Cats’ offensive line for an old friend and a new target.
“I’m not a big (trash) talker, I’ve had my moments,” Hickman said. “I have my people, there are certain guys that bring it out more than others. For the most part I just stick to myself.”
So who exactly pushes Hickman’s buttons?

“Definitely Zach Collaros,” Hickman replied, singling out the Ticats starting quarterback. “No question it’s going to be Zach Collaros. He’s going to bring that out.
“It’ll be the first time (as opponents) and me and him are good friends. We exchange text messages every now and then. Now it’s my first time actually going against him after two years (as teammates) . . . because I couldn’t touch him in practice, I can actually try and put a hit on him.”


https://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2016/09/04/labour-day-classic-will-have-unique-twist-for-argos-justin-hickman.html

[jerrym]

Helping the opponents score with a penalty on almost every play.

[ArgoGabe22]

Helping the opponents score with a penalty on almost every play.

Alford blew Tasker a kiss. That's definitely PI....

[jerrym]

I'm especially glad they called the face mask penalty on that Ticat tackle as that kind of tackle is highly likely to cause an injury.

[Wobbler]

Alford blew Tasker a kiss. That's definitely PI....
I loved Suitor's colour work on the replay. "The contact on Tasker was......................... minimal."

[Argo57]

Bourke needs to step it up, highly touted free agent who has been ordinary at best.

[mint83]

O-line terrible on last play as usual and Ray slow to release ball.

D misses tackles on two second and short plays.

Brutal

[jerrym]

That's twice the Argos had Gable stopped on second down and let him still get the first down with second effort. Poor tackling is an ongoing problem.

[Wobbler]

Nice blitz, Mr. Gordon.

[Argo57]

Hope they stay aggressive tonight on D.
Sit back and they will get picked apart, nice play Gordon!!

[jerrym]

Gordon takes an Argo bounce after sacking Collaros for a TD and the lead!

[Wobbler]

OK, our D has stepped up in a big way. I've expressed dissatisfaction with Black, but that was a nice read. Your move, offense!

(Very nice protection on the last play of Q1)

[jerrym]

Matt Black's veteran presence comes through as he intercepts Collaros.

[KCargosfan]

Matt Black's veteran presence comes through as he intercepts Collaros.

Agreed. But what an awful throw by Collaros by not looking the safety off.

[jerrym]

Another unnecessary penalty unrelated to the play wipes out a TD.

[Neely2005]

2 weeks in a row we have a TD called back on a penalty!

[Argo57]

Bourke getting rag dolled on the Ticats latest sack.

[KCargosfan]

Blocking downfield is a penalty?

[Wobbler]

Elliot's effort on the (penalty-negated) TD was terrific. I suspect that Spencer will do some pushups for that one. Will getting three instead of seven hurt us? We'll see...

[jerrym]

Great fumble recovery off aggressive tackling of Owens.

[Neely2005]

That's the Owens ball protection that I remember.
:-)

[jerrym]

LeFevour has really improved the Argos short yardage game.

[KCargosfan]

I love the fact we can just throw a jump ball in Gurley's vicinity and he can go up and get it. Nice realization by Ray of the coverage there.

[Wobbler]

Nice one, Neely. :)

It's the CFL, so no one should be surprised, but... I'm surprised. We're kicking ass and taking names (so far).

[jerrym]

Gurley's height and hands helps him give the Argo's another TD. Seventeen point off turnovers means the Argos are making Tiger Cats look like Pussy Cats so far.

[Wobbler]

And now a punt block?! Damn.

[jerrym]

Another sack of Collaros and then Brian Jones blocks a kick! The difference in confidence and attitude once they got going compared to last week is staggering.

[ArgoGabe22]

Don't stop now. 27-7 but not over till it's over.

[Argo57]

Keep your foot on the gas Argos!!!

[KCargosfan]

We came into this game pissed off.

And it doesn't hurt Ray is 13 for 13. Wow!

[jerrym]

Whitaker TD! I can't keep up with the scoring but I'm not complaining. Keep pounding the Dying Cats.

[Wobbler]

Don't stop now. 27-7 but not over till it's over.
So true.

[Wobbler]

Hey, who's our MLB now? Did McFadden return?

[Argo57]

Start tackling guys!!!

[PullTogether73]

Cue the collapse.

53 yard run by the Cats? Plus a penalty.

And...touchdown.

[jerrym]

Keep your foot on the gas Argos!!!

Unfortunately, the Argos didn't hear us on Gable's 53 yard run:ohno:

[KCargosfan]

This isn't the Riders. The likelihood of winning 52-7 wasn't very high.

[jerrym]

This is an important moment in the game as the Argos need to make a statement in their play that they are here to win.

[Wobbler]

Whoa. Banks made Rankin look pretty bad on that Hamilton TD.

Time to respond: Declan Cross with a catch!

[jerrym]

Rico Murray should have a guarding penalty when the ball hit him in the back with his hand in the air blocking the receiver's view.

[Argo57]

Argos can't afford to sit back in the second half, Hamilton can come back in a hurry!

[KCargosfan]

Argos can't afford to sit back in the second half, Hamilton can come back in a hurry!

Doubt they will. A 13-point lead in the CFL with two quarters left is hardly comfortable.

[Argo57]

Doubt they will. A 13-point lead in the CFL with two quarters left is hardly comfortable.

They've done it before.

[jerrym]

Argos can't afford to sit back in the second half, Hamilton can come back in a hurry!

I agree completely but so far they are responding to the challenge. Besides the momentum factor, the Argo offence needs to stay on the field so that the defence doesn't worn down playing on five days rest compared to the Cats eight days off.

[Wobbler]

Cue the collapse.
I'm less fatalistic. We've been a bit lucky and (more importantly) good, and I think we'll bring this home.

[jerrym]

Llevi Noel, looking good with a couple of ST tackles for losses.

[Argo57]

Wake the f**k up and challenge that interference call coach!!
Total bullshit call IMO.

[jerrym]

That penalty on Jefferson was ridiculous and now the Tiger Cats are less than a converted TD behind.

[PullTogether73]

I'm less fatalistic. We've been a bit lucky and (more importantly) good, and I think we'll bring this home.

That's now 17 unanswered Cats points, all without any turnover help, and the lead is down to 6 points.
Collapse in progress.

Edit: btw, Argonauts points NOT off turnovers? 6. Not impressive.

[jerrym]

Wake the f**k up and challenge that interference call coach!!
Total bullshit call IMO.
I agree. The penalty should never have been called but Milanovich needs to respond quicker.

[jerrym]

Nice return after Tiger Cat TD to give Argos' good field position. Let's take advantage of it.

[jerrym]

Unlike Milanovich, Austin throws the challenge flag in time despite the Argos trying to go quickly.

[KCargosfan]

Wake the f**k up and challenge that interference call coach!!
Total bullshit call IMO.

Agreed.

[ArgoGabe22]

I agree. The penalty should never have been called but Milanovich needs to respond quicker.

I agree but on field level as a coach there are a lot things going around you, things going through your head. It's not an easy decision. Hamilton gave him no time to think or discuss with upstairs. Milanovich probably just trusted his gut.

See Austin. He threw the flag quickly and lost.

[KCargosfan]

That's now 17 unanswered Cats points, all without any turnover help, and the lead is down to 6 points.
Collapse in progress.

Edit: btw, Argonauts points NOT off turnovers? 6. Not impressive.

I know you're a troll, but how many possessions did we have that started clean and not from a turnover?

[Argo57]

I agree but on field level as a coach there are a lot things going around you, things going through your head. It's not an easy decision. Hamilton gave him no time to think or discuss with upstairs. Milanovich probably just trusted his gut.

See Austin. He threw the flag quickly and lost.

Sometimes you have to trust your eye and be aggressive.

[jerrym]

Ray gets lucky that a knockdown doesn't turn into an interception and maybe a TD. Then the Argos get double lucky with a Ticat too many men on the field penalty.

[PullTogether73]

Okay, that touchdown catch by Gurley was impressive!

I hope the Argos prove my b****ing was premature.

[Argo57]

Ray gets lucky that a knockdown doesn't turn into an interception and maybe a TD. Then the Argos get double lucky with a Ticat too many men on the field penalty.

Nice touch on the TD though!

[KCargosfan]

I'll say it again, love the fact we can just toss it up to Gurley, though that was a good throw as Ray threw it to the back shoulder.

[jerrym]

Gurley scores again!.

[KCargosfan]

Ray gets lucky that a knockdown doesn't turn into an interception and maybe a TD. Then the Argos get double lucky with a Ticat too many men on the field penalty.

Call it even from the BS PI call earlier.

[Wobbler]

Okay, that touchdown catch by Gurley was impressive!
That was an NFL TD.

[jerrym]

http://www.argofans.com/styles/nexus/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by KCargosfan http://www.argofans.com/styles/nexus/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?p=96089#post96089)
I know you're a troll, but how many possessions did we have that started clean and not from a turnover?







You KNOW I'm a troll?!
You're an asshat, fuckhead.
Clearly you haven't paid attention to my posts since I joined this forum, otherwise you wouldn't make such a stupid comment.

Can we get back to enjoying the game?

[Wobbler]

Carter and Alford are our corners?! Let's kill as much time as possible.

[jerrym]

Ugh! We just lost our best db, Jefferson - hopefully it's not serious.

[KCargosfan]

You KNOW I'm a troll?!
You're an asshat, fuckhead.
Clearly you haven't paid attention to my posts since I joined this forum, otherwise you wouldn't make such a stupid comment.

Very mature.

[KCargosfan]

This has the feel of a playoff game.

[jerrym]

And the Ticats make us pay with a TD following the Jefferson injury.

[PullTogether73]

Very mature.

And accurate.

[Argo57]

I think we just saw the TSN turning point unfortunately!!

[Wobbler]

Gotta eat it there Ray. Dammit!!

[KCargosfan]

Ugh. Durie was WIDE open.

[Wobbler]

And accurate.
Don't make me delete any more of your posts, GD.

[Argo57]

Gotta eat it there Ray. Dammit!!

They needed that TD Wobbler, Hamilton is starting to roll.
Shades of last years playoff game, leading most of the game then began to fade in the second half.

[ArgoGabe22]

Ugh. Durie was WIDE open.

Should've just took the sack but a wide open Durie must of been tempting. Why not just run the ball?

[jerrym]

Ray's interception is a tide-turner. Now we see how well the Argo's respond to adversity.

[KCargosfan]

And accurate.

Ending this pissing match.

[PullTogether73]

Ending this pissing match.

As long as you are aware that you started it.

[KCargosfan]

I have the feeling first to 50 wins.

[jerrym]

Spencer is doing what he can to get an Argo win taking the ball on a 63 yard play down to the five only to be followed by an interception. Then he has a great 41 yard return deep into Ticat territory wiped out by a blocking penalty.

[Argo57]

I have the feeling first to 50 wins.

And I have a feeling it won't be the Argos, they are starting to tighten up.
Another borderline call on Spencer's kick return.

[KCargosfan]

As long as you are aware that you started it.

Your posts earlier in this thread were very troll-like. Sorry if I mistook that for complaining.

[KCargosfan]

And I have a feeling it won't be the Argos, they are starting to tighten up.
Another borderline call on Spencer's kick return.

Unfortunately, it looks that way.

[jerrym]

That blocking penalty on Spencer's return is playing big with the Argos failing to get a first down and now giving the Ticats the ball on a short field.

[KCargosfan]

Ugh. That miss of Durie is looming large.

[ArgoTD]

The referring in the CFL is atrocious at best! Phantom PI on Jefferson, a really really weak blocking penalty on the return is embarrassing for the CFL.

[jerrym]

Gable breaks 100 yards on only 7 carries. He seems to play most of his best games against the Argos.

[PullTogether73]

Your posts earlier in this thread were very troll-like. Sorry if I mistook that for complaining.

Thank you for the apology.

I am a life-long Argonauts fan who has invested a lot of time (watching on TV, attending games) and money (season seats over the past 11 years, multiple jerseys, hats, etc. at full price) and I cheer this team as loudly as anybody.
Being called a troll on an Argonauts forum struck a nerve - obviously.

I am also a realist, and I have seen impressive collapses by the Argos too many times.
Hence, my comments about a collapse.
Sadly, as I have been writing this post, the Argos are now trailing the Cats.
Sigh.

Let's both get back to cheering the Argos sir.

[Argo57]

Games not over but the Argonauts are completely frustrating to watch, can't hold onto a lead to save their lives.

[KCargosfan]

The referring in the CFL is atrocious at best! Phantom PI on Jefferson, a really really weak blocking penalty on the return is embarrassing for the CFL.

Unfortunately, those probably don't make it in the top 3 for the season.

[jerrym]

And poof goes the lead.

[jerrym]

Games not over but the Argonauts are completely frustrating to watch, can't hold onto a lead to save their lives.

While I agree that the Argos have frustrating to watch this year, there were extenuating circumstances today. The Argos were playing on five days rest and what I feared would happen did happen - the Argos wearing down as the game wore on against a team that had eight days of rest.

[PullTogether73]

The coaching staff (not just Milanovich) HAS to be better about challenging calls.
That play was a complete pass and went unchallenged.
Next play, pick 6.


I hate it when I'm right about an Argonauts collapse.

[Wobbler]

That was the worst.

[jerrym]

Spencer comes through with a great catch as he's hit and then makes another catch that's ruled incomplete. When Milanovich refuses to throw the flag, Ray is hit as he throws on the next play during a blitz to give the Ticats more than a TD lead. Sometimes Milanovich frustrates me with his caution in terms of the dump pass game and his reluctance to drop the challenge flag.

[KCargosfan]

Thank you for the apology.

I am a life-long Argonauts fan who has invested a lot of time (watching on TV, attending games) and money (season seats over the past 11 years, multiple jerseys, hats, etc. at full price) and I cheer this team as loudly as anybody.
Being called a troll on an Argonauts forum struck a nerve - obviously.

I am also a realist, and I have seen impressive collapses by the Argos too many times.
Hence, my comments about a collapse.
Sadly, as I have been writing this post, the Argos are now trailing the Cats.
Sigh.

Let's both get back to cheering the Argos sir.

I have a tendency to write before I think and/or research, which has led to some inaccurate and dumb posts on my part.

With your lifelong fandom, I can see how that struck a nerve, and I again apologize.

And, unfortunately for both of us as Argos fans, I now look like the complete buffoon as your concerns seem to be very prophetic. Perhaps you should gamble on the Argos as you predicted the future.

[Argo57]

Feel bad for Ray, guy played valiantly.
Clearly a catch and our coach stands there like a stooge, next play its all over.

[Wobbler]

I hate it when I'm right about an Argonauts collapse.
You weren't right. You panicked early and "got lucky".

[Argo57]

I have a tendency to write before I think and/or research, which has led to some inaccurate and dumb posts on my part.

With your lifelong fandom, I can see how that struck a nerve, and I again apologize.

And, unfortunately for both of us as Argos fans, I now look like the complete buffoon as your concerns seem to be very prophetic. Perhaps you should gamble on the Argos as you predicted the future.

Heat of the battle boys!!
KC it takes a big man to apologize, good on you👍

[KCargosfan]

Wasn't it a little early to go for it on third down with that field position down 10?

[PullTogether73]

I have a tendency to write before I think and/or research, which has led to some inaccurate and dumb posts on my part.

With your lifelong fandom, I can see how that struck a nerve, and I again apologize.

And, unfortunately for both of us as Argos fans, I now look like the complete buffoon as your concerns seem to be very prophetic. Perhaps you should gamble on the Argos as you predicted the future.

Thanks again for the apology - goes a long way.

Unfortunately, being a sports fan in Toronto conditions one to expect the worst.
I guess I don't want to get my hopes up too much.:ohno:

[PullTogether73]

You weren't right. You panicked early and "got lucky".

Disagree.

I saw weak play in the Argonauts offence (again) and projected that there was too much time left for the Cats to correct the turnovers and penalties. I didn't even forecast the Argonauts turnovers tbh.

I wish I wasn't "right" though.

[ArgoGabe22]

I'll be the first to say it but Milanovich blew this one.

[jerrym]

Gable continues to break tackle after tackle.

[Argo57]

This is a killer loss IMO, I predicted a Hamilton blowout and was wrong.
The Argos could and should have won this game but didn't, you could see them tightening up in the second half.
Live by the turnover, die by the turnover.
Good teams know how to close games out, enough said on that one.
Bad night for Milanovich, his indecision on the challenges directly cost the Argos big time.
Love seeing the smug look on Austin's face.

[KCargosfan]

Gable continues to break tackle after tackle.

Hamilton averaged 9 yards a carry. This is a problem.

[jerrym]

Besides looking good on downfield tackles, Noel has also done a good job as a returner.

[jerrym]

Why bother putting Ray in the game at the end if it's obvious he's hurting and the Argos are going to run the ball?

[ArgofanIan]

Need everybody out for the rematch... we will get em next time....

[PullTogether73]

So, every team has played ten games.
The Argonauts are currently out of a playoff spot.
Do we start cheering for the Eskimos and Blue Bombers to keep/start losing?

(Still a lot of football to be played of course.)

[jerrym]

My concern about Sunday's game is that the Argos after being beaten up physically in this game (partly because they were playing on only five days rest) will now be playing their third game in eleven days. It could be another tough one.

[ArgoRavi]

Wasn't it a little early to go for it on third down with that field position down 10?

No, that was actually a good call by Milanovich in a game in which he had some bad ones.

The three turning points in this one were:

1) Jefferson's PI that should have been challenged in the third quarter. That was the difference between Hamilton having to punt from their own 20 and scoring a TD. This was the single biggest play in the game IMO.

2) Ray's INT in the endzone late in the 3rd quarter.

3) Wylie's "illegal block" on the big Spencer punt return in the 4th quarter. I honestly don't believe that it was an illegal block but it was a key play regardless.

[paulwoods13]

Same problems we've had all year. O-line can't block, defence can't stop anyone. This is the worst Argo defence in a long time. A lot of it is injuries, some of it is personnel and I daresay a lot of it is scheme. Stubler seems to have no answers for anything.

Really regretting buying GC tix. If we lose again next week, our only hope for playoffs will be to make up a three-point gap on Ottawa over the last seven games. Not impossible because I don't think Ott is as good as they looked in weeks 1-4, but pretty tough to see us suddenly being able to block pass rushers and stop any team with a decent passing game.

[paulwoods13]

Do we start cheering for the Eskimos and Blue Bombers to keep/start losing?


Yes.

[paulwoods13]

Besides looking good on downfield tackles, Noel has also done a good job as a returner.

I would say an OK job. He doesn't look to have great instincts as a returner, IMO.

[paulwoods13]

1) Jefferson's PI that should have been challenged in the third quarter. That was the difference between Hamilton having to punt from their own 20 and scoring a TD. This was the single biggest play in the game IMO.


Thanks, TSN, for not showing the replay until after the Ticats snapped it.

[ArgoRavi]

Besides looking good on downfield tackles, Noel has also done a good job as a returner.

I didn't think that he looked that great as a returner. We need to find someone as our kickoff return game is terrible. Our punt return game with Spencer is better but a flag always seems to come down when he has a huge return. Two big 4th quarter returns in two games called back and the call tonight was an iffy one to boot.

[KCargosfan]

No, that was actually a good call by Milanovich in a game in which he had some bad ones.

The three turning points in this one were:

1) Jefferson's PI that should have been challenged in the third quarter. That was the difference between Hamilton having to punt from their own 20 and scoring a TD. This was the single biggest play in the game IMO.

2) Ray's INT in the endzone late in the 3rd quarter.

3) Wylie's "illegal block" on the big Spencer punt return in the 4th quarter. I honestly don't believe that it was an illegal block but it was a key play regardless.

Good summary, Ravi. Completely agree on that PI call being the biggest play of the game.

[1971GreyCup]

Has there been a game this season where the officials haven't contributed significantly to the outcome of a game? New PI rules don't help. Biggest criticism is too much officiating! Don't need to find a fault on every play, especially away from the play.

[Antwon]

This is a killer loss IMO, I predicted a Hamilton blowout and was wrong.
The Argos could and should have won this game but didn't, you could see them tightening up in the second half.
Live by the turnover, die by the turnover.
Good teams know how to close games out, enough said on that one.
Bad night for Milanovich, his indecision on the challenges directly cost the Argos big time.
Love seeing the smug look on Austin's face.

SM blew it not challenging the PI on Jefferson, and the catch by Spencer.
Valiant effort by the players, but the defence can't protect a lead!!
Nice to see them throw deep more....wonder if some are feeling the heat??

[gilthethrill]

Gotta eat it there Ray. Dammit!!

Ray was not given enough time to eat it.

[Stevoman]

Tough loss in a game where the Argos played well and even great at times (especially Gurley, Spencer, and Isaac). However, 30 turnover assisted points in the first half and only six in the second is not enough. I was happy to see Ray mixing his check off style with some aggressive deep throws to take advantage of the blitz but when the offence could not get one touchdown that was not assisted by a turnover, the score became misleading.
Credit to the Tiger Cats as they truly are a better team than .500 but I still can't stand em!

[1971GreyCup]

Against a Western team tonight, I think the Ticats lose by 40 points. Against the current structure of the Argos, the Ticats win by 13.

[doubleblue]

Has there been a game this season where the officials haven't contributed significantly to the outcome of a game? New PI rules don't help. Biggest criticism is too much officiating! Don't need to find a fault on every play, especially away from the play.

I agree. Three cheap penalties were costly for the Argos in this one. But I liked their passion, and if they can keep that part of the game up and the young players on defense keep improving, they will be a tough team to beat down the stretch IMO.

[Argo57]

So, every team has played ten games.
The Argonauts are currently out of a playoff spot.
Do we start cheering for the Eskimos and Blue Bombers to keep/start losing?

(Still a lot of football to be played of course.)

Won't matter unless the Argonauts get their shit together and start winning.

[Wobbler]

Ray was not given enough time to eat it.
I think there was, on that play at least.

[TheHammer]

Against a Western team tonight, I think the Ticats lose by 40 points. Against the current structure of the Argos, the Ticats win by 13.

Play to the level of your competition

[Ron]

Turning point was the Ray INT in the end zone. Had he not been hit just as he threw he had Durie wide open for an easy six. They guy who got the INT only got it because he was so out of position to cover Durie that the ball floated right to him. Had the DB been more competent ... it would have dropped incomplete.

For what it's worth. As Stubler walked off the field he was having a heated one way discussion with another coach.

[R.J]

Predicted the Ticats to win, but I was happy to see Ray pushing the ball early on. The picks were not from pushing the ball, but the oline failing to protect Ray. Ray's slow release isn't helping though.

We need a running back, and I mean need.

We also need Greenwood back, maybe put Greenwood at Mike when he returns, and Miles at Wil (Miles plays better at will than mike IMO). I disagree with the idea that letting Jones go was a mistake, with the aerial offences of the CFL this season, Jones has pretty much been invisible for the Riders and struggled last season in passing downs with the Argos - Jones is a run stopper, and we need more of a wil type linebacker at Mike (hence why I like Greenwood at the spot).

Argos were outcoached again, as the Ticats made the necessary adjustments at the half, and the Argos couldn't match 'em. Only 6 points off of non turnovers isn't good enough.

Lastly, the Refs, Glen Johnson, and Jake Ireland need to figure out what illegal contact and interference are - it's gotten ridiculous.


Play to the level of your competition
Yup

[ArgoRavi]

Tough loss in a game where the Argos played well and even great at times (especially Gurley, Spencer, and Isaac). However, 30 turnover assisted points in the first half and only six in the second is not enough. I was happy to see Ray mixing his check off style with some aggressive deep throws to take advantage of the blitz but when the offence could not get one touchdown that was not assisted by a turnover, the score became misleading.
Credit to the Tiger Cats as they truly are a better team than .500 but I still can't stand em!

Ray threw for almost 400 yards tonight and hit some big plays in the second half too so I have a hard time blaming the offence for this loss. The only play offensively I wish they had back was the INT in the endzone near the end of the third quarter. Looking ahead, the Argos need to build on their strong offensive performance tonight. This was only the second game where the Argos had the offence on the field that they want to have and Ray and the offence played much better tonight than they did against B.C.

At this point, the Argos need to continue doing what they did well and improve on the things that they didn't which I know sounds quite obvious. Offensively though, there is hope and their special teams coverage has been much better over the past two games. The punt block by Brian Jones tonight was a real highlight as well. Defensively, they played so well against the Lions but struggled against the Ticats. In fairness though, Hamilton has made a lot of defences look bad so far this season. The Argos have to find a way to limit the big plays against while forcing turnovers.

We are at a point now where the next two games may determine the season. Win both (vs. Hamilton, in Winnipeg) and there is still lots of hope for a great outcome. Lose one or both and it becomes a tougher haul the rest of the way. Milanovich has never lost 5 in a row as Argos' head coach so hopefully that stays the same after this Sunday.

[argolio]

Elliot's effort on the (penalty-negated) TD was terrific. I suspect that Spencer will do some pushups for that one. Will getting three instead of seven hurt us? We'll see...Marginal call I thought.


Wake the f**k up and challenge that interference call coach!!
Total bullshit call IMO.It's possible the bench didn't think it was worth challenging. It's also possible the spotters upstairs decided it shouldn't be challenged, or were too slow telling the bench to challenge it. Regardless, it's something that needs to be addressed this week.

Agree that it was a terrible call in the first place.


Call it even from the BS PI call earlier.Not even. The Ticats actually did have 13 on the field. We didn't commit PI.


Should've just took the sack but a wide open Durie must of been tempting. Why not just run the ball?What it should have been was first and goal from the one. That was clearly PI, not illegal contact. Likely cost us a TD.


Spencer is doing what he can to get an Argo win taking the ball on a 63 yard play down to the five only to be followed by an interception. Then he has a great 41 yard return deep into Ticat territory wiped out by a blocking penalty.Another crappy call. That was a legal block.


The coaching staff (not just Milanovich) HAS to be better about challenging calls.
That play was a complete pass and went unchallenged.
Next play, pick 6.Agree that it needed to be challenged, but how about the G-D officials getting the call right? It wasn't even that close a play, and it was right in the middle of the field. No excuse to get that wrong.


I didn't think that he looked that great as a returner. We need to find someone as our kickoff return game is terrible. Our punt return game with Spencer is better but a flag always seems to come down when he has a huge return. Two big 4th quarter returns in two games called back and the call tonight was an iffy one to boot.At least Noel got to the 30 most of the time. That's an improvement from before. I like how he made some space for himself, and I'd keep him on kickoffs to see if he can grow into that role.


Really bad week for the officials with the horrible job by Valessi's crew and that brutal PI call against Justin Cox of the Riders. I generally live with bad calls, and I'm not even going the argue the Argos would have won with a decently officiated game, but when you're substandard for an entire game, or make a terrible call in crunch time that decides a game, guys need to get suspended or lose their jobs.

[mint83]

That was hard to take. Kind of reminded me of the 2014 game in Calgary that I attended.

Great to see some solid offensive performances despite our weak O-line. I think injuries in the secondary caught up with the defence against a good team. Seems like there have been lots of big plays taken away around the CFL this year by over- officiating.

Agree it is getting down to must win time to have any hope for the playoffs.

[Blue90]

I'm really surprised that no one is pointing the fingers at our china doll QB. Great percentage passing again. Lots of 5 yard passes. No ability to avoid the rush. No emotion or ability to inspire the team. On every hit or sack he looks like he won't get back up. He is DONE.

Who here would prefer Ricky Ray versus Zach or Trevor Harris?

[1971GreyCup]

Toronto Star reported

"“I just told the guys it can go one of two ways,” Argos coach Scott Milanovich said. “It’s two weeks in a row, they played their hearts out.
“I didn’t yell and scream at them in there. They gave everything they had and again it didn’t go our way in the fourth quarter. That’s tough to swallow for professional guys that put their heart and soul into it. We’ll have to lick our wounds and find out what kind of character we have.”


Character. You can add coaching and talent to those remarks.

Coach Kent Austin figured out how to beat SM in the 2nd half of the 2013 Eastern Finals during Ricky Rays (almost) MVP season. Since then he has soundly out coached SM. Unless coaching changes in Hamilton, it has to change in TO.

[eiben35]

In regards to our spotters in the booth. I bet you we do not have as many spotters as other teams. Their football admin is a joke. Also, Milanovich admits that he hates challenges. The difference between Zach and Ricky is avoiding the sack which Zack does unbelievingly well and Ray does not. Barker and Milanovich made a huge mistake for this organization when they let both of those guys walk. One of them should be let go at seasons end.

[Will]

I'm really surprised that no one is pointing the fingers at our china doll QB. Great percentage passing again. Lots of 5 yard passes. No ability to avoid the rush. No emotion or ability to inspire the team. On every hit or sack he looks like he won't get back up. He is DONE.

Who here would prefer Ricky Ray versus Zach or Trevor Harris?

I don't think many are going to dispute at this point that Collaros or Harris should have been kept over Ray, but the "china doll QB" was not the reason that the Argos lost the game. Those interceptions hurt, but that is on the offensive line for giving Hamilton players a free shot at the QB. I will say this though, with the game on the line in a close game, have we ever seen Ray march the Argos down the field? I'm not sure (but feel free to correct me).

I don't think there is too much to add here: Milanovich keeping hisshmata in his pocket was not helpful. You got the sense that in spite of the Hamilton turnovers that the Tiger-Cats (once they eliminated that) were able to move the ball up and down the field with impunity. This "three-man" front got eaten alive by Gable all night long and the Argos had no adjustments.

[paulwoods13]

Turning point was the Ray INT in the end zone. Had he not been hit just as he threw he had Durie wide open for an easy six. They guy who got the INT only got it because he was so out of position to cover Durie that the ball floated right to him. Had the DB been more competent ... it would have dropped incomplete.

For what it's worth. As Stubler walked off the field he was having a heated one way discussion with another coach.

I wasn't there but I would bet it was Kit Lathrop. Stubler went at him hard on the sideline during either the Edm or Wpg game. He should be ripping himself, IMO.

[paulwoods13]

Lots to be unhappy about obviously, but I'm not gonna rip on Milanovich for not throwing the challenge flag twice. The PI call on Jefferson wasn't replayed on TSN until well after the play and by then the Ticats had scrambled for a quick snap. I guess he might have thrown it based on the fact the Ticats seemed worried about losing the call but under the new rules you want to be pretty sure you can win a challenge, or save it until you are desperate. On the missed catch, it would have been just a 5-yard gain and if you lose you are out of timeouts. And if there's one thing that has been consistent this season, it is the booth botching challenges. It's entirely conceivable they would not have overturned the PI call.

[1971GreyCup]

I wasn't there but I would bet it was Kit Lathrop. Stubler went at him hard on the sideline during either the Edm or Wpg game. He should be ripping himself, IMO.

I asked Coach Stubler why he was so angry with the officials in Ottawa and he told me that he specifically got rule clarification with officials before the game, during the game and still they called the infractions! I forgot what infraction, but he was ballistic on the sidelines with officials.

[Neely2005]

Wake the f**k up and challenge that interference call coach!!
Total bullshit call IMO.

That was the Turning Point in the game IMO. We were yelling at the TV for Millanovich to challenge it. Of course Hamilton is smart enough to get the next play off quickly.

[Argo]

I asked Coach Stubler why he was so angry with the officials in Ottawa and he told me that he specifically got rule clafication with officials before the game, during the game and still they called the infractions! I forgot what infraction, but he was ballistic on the sidelines with officials.

"CFL Officiating is Ruining the Game"... I stand by my earlier posting. Worse, the league has added another layer of crapulence this season.

[jojoheath]

I have been going to Labour Day games in Hamilton for years, I thought I was finally going to see a victory, silly me.

[Neely2005]

Need everybody out for the rematch... we will get em next time....

We have 7 people coming to the game and Tailgate.

[Neely2005]

Thanks, TSN, for not showing the replay until after the Ticats snapped it.

Good point. So much for them being on our side.
:)

[Reggiemac]

Nope Milanovich should have a process in place, a spotter or whatever. That was the ke y play of the game and it was a coaching error.

[Reggiemac]

In spite of tye loss there were good things. The defence looked great until the injury to McFadden hurt out strategic planning. I liked the 3 man D line spread wide inviting the run perfect for later when we have our best run stoppers back from injury, Greenwood and McFadden healthy is key to our success. And Bourque only allowed 2-3 sacks unfortunately one was at a critical time. We need to find a way to protect Ricky. Get a reliable LT and a punishing RB and get our defence healthy and we should be good to go.

[AngeloV]

Well, I was too steamed to look on here after the game yesterday, and am still steamed today.

Everyone can blame Milanovich all they want, but the Argos were ROYALLY SCREWED BY THE ZEBRAS YESTERDAY.

Let's see:
blocking downfield call on Spencer negating a TD...the ball was thrown to the other side, and may have already been in the air before the block even took place. Result: cost the Argos 4 points

Illegal contact rather than PI on a target area infraction. Yes they should still have scored rather than turn it over, but they are pretty much guaranteed to score the 7 if the right call is made. Result: cost the Argos 7 points. This one irks me more than any other, because it is a failure to understand the rule on the officials part. That is just plain ridiculous. TARGET AREA IS PI AND NOT ILLEGAL CONTACT.

Calling incomplete pass to Spencer forcing the Argos in 2nd a long, rather than short. Result: a pick 6 which likely would not have happened with a different down and distance situation. Result: 7 points for the Cats.

Just those 3 plays result in an 18 point difference, and I didn't even include the PI on Jefferson.

People can blame Milanovich all they want for not challenging, but you only get so many challenges a game. Max of 3, and only if you are successful on all, and my bet is the PI would not have been overturned because it mirrored the one in the Saskatchewan game the day before.

You can go over my posts since I joined this site, I have never once said that officiating has ever been the difference in an Argos game, but yesterday it was.

[R.J]

Defence not playing well lead to the loss more than the officials IMO, but the CFL unquestionably needs to fix the officiating and the rules. Figuring out what the rules actually are, would be a great first step.

[AngeloV]

Defence not playing well lead to the loss more than the officials

disagree. If the first TD stood rather than having to kick a FG and if the PI call was correct, it is an entirely different game.

[R.J]

disagree. If the first TD stood rather than having to kick a FG and if the PI call was correct, it is an entirely different game.
We don't know that. Hamilton could still have easily come from behind. They're plus 90 something in the second half I believe.

[Neely2005]

Well, I was too steamed to look on here after the game yesterday, and am still steamed today.

Everyone can blame Milanovich all they want, but the Argos were ROYALLY SCREWED BY THE ZEBRAS YESTERDAY.

Let's see:
blocking downfield call on Spencer negating a TD...the ball was thrown to the other side, and may have already been in the air before the block even took place. Result: cost the Argos 4 points

Illegal contact rather than PI on a target area infraction. Yes they should still have scored rather than turn it over, but they are pretty much guaranteed to score the 7 if the right call is made. Result: cost the Argos 7 points. This one irks me more than any other, because it is a failure to understand the rule on the officials part. That is just plain ridiculous. TARGET AREA IS PI AND NOT ILLEGAL CONTACT.

Calling incomplete pass to Spencer forcing the Argos in 2nd a long, rather than short. Result: a pick 6 which likely would not have happened with a different down and distance situation. Result: 7 points for the Cats.

Just those 3 plays result in an 18 point difference, and I didn't even include the PI on Jefferson.

People can blame Milanovich all they want for not challenging, but you only get so many challenges a game. Max of 3, and only if you are successful on all, and my bet is the PI would not have been overturned because it mirrored the one in the Saskatchewan game the day before.

You can go over my posts since I joined this site, I have never once said that officiating has ever been the difference in an Argos game, but yesterday it was.

They definitely were a significant factor yesterday.

[Argo57]

Well, I was too steamed to look on here after the game yesterday, and am still steamed today.

Everyone can blame Milanovich all they want, but the Argos were ROYALLY SCREWED BY THE ZEBRAS YESTERDAY.

Let's see:
blocking downfield call on Spencer negating a TD...the ball was thrown to the other side, and may have already been in the air before the block even took place. Result: cost the Argos 4 points

Illegal contact rather than PI on a target area infraction. Yes they should still have scored rather than turn it over, but they are pretty much guaranteed to score the 7 if the right call is made. Result: cost the Argos 7 points. This one irks me more than any other, because it is a failure to understand the rule on the officials part. That is just plain ridiculous. TARGET AREA IS PI AND NOT ILLEGAL CONTACT.

Calling incomplete pass to Spencer forcing the Argos in 2nd a long, rather than short. Result: a pick 6 which likely would not have happened with a different down and distance situation. Result: 7 points for the Cats.

Just those 3 plays result in an 18 point difference, and I didn't even include the PI on Jefferson.

People can blame Milanovich all they want for not challenging, but you only get so many challenges a game. Max of 3, and only if you are successful on all, and my bet is the PI would not have been overturned because it mirrored the one in the Saskatchewan game the day before.

You can go over my posts since I joined this site, I have never once said that officiating has ever been the difference in an Argos game, but yesterday it was.

The officiating has been as bad as ever, PI call on Jefferson was obvious to all without needing a replay except to the imbecile 10 feet from the play.
The blocking downfield call was equally farcical as the ball was already on the way to the other side of the field.
Angelo I figured we were screwed when Ray threw the end zone pick.
Disagree in regards to the challenges, should have rolled the dice on the Jefferson play as it was a long gainer and worth the risk.
I'm sure the players were as deflated as us fans, the most frustrating loss in recent memory.
If you have the game recorded take a look at the coaches handshake tells you what Milanovich thinks of Austin.
Noticed it last year as well.

[AngeloV]

If you have the game recorded take a look at the coaches handshake tells you what Milanovich thinks of Austin.
Noticed it last year as well.

I did notice it.

[FenderGuy69]

793


<colgroup><col><col span="2"><col></colgroup><tbody>

TOR
HAM
VAR HAM/TOR


BIG PLAYS
3
7
133.33%


1ST DOWN YARDS AVG
4.9
9.9
102.04%


RED ZONE CONV
50
100
100.00%


1ST DOWNS BY RUSH
6
10
66.67%


SACKS MADE
2
3
50.00%


PASSER EFF
108.4
137.7
27.03%


2ND DOWN CONV
57
70
22.81%


PASS YARDS/ATTEMPT
9.4
10.3
9.57%


NET PUNTING
41.5
43
3.61%


GIVEAWAYS
4
4
0.00%


PENALTIES
9
7
-22.22%


PENALTY YARDS
86
65
-24.42%


TAKEAWAYS
4
3
-25.00%


SACKS ALLOWED
3
2
-33.33%


2ND DOWN YARDS AVG
12.3
7.3
-40.65%


POINTS OFF T/O'S
24
10
-58.33%

</tbody>

[paulwoods13]

The officiating has been as bad as ever, PI call on Jefferson was obvious to all without needing a replay except to the imbecile 10 feet from the play.

Are you confident the booth would have seen it that way, had we asked for a review? Based on booth calls this year, I'm certainly not.

[paulwoods13]

In spite of tye loss there were good things. The defence looked great until the injury to McFadden hurt out strategic planning. I liked the 3 man D line spread wide inviting the run perfect for later when we have our best run stoppers back from injury, Greenwood and McFadden healthy is key to our success. And Bourque only allowed 2-3 sacks unfortunately one was at a critical time. We need to find a way to protect Ricky. Get a reliable LT and a punishing RB and get our defence healthy and we should be good to go.

This is satire, correct? Bourke "only allowed 2-3 sacks" -- bravo! All we need is a reliable LT, a punishing RB and a healthy defence! We MIGHT be able to get one of those three things (healthy defence) this year. If we're playing a three-man front now to trick the opposition into running when McFadden and Greenwood are healthy, there might be no playoff spots open by then.

[R.J]

This is satire, correct? Bourke "only allowed 2-3 sacks" -- bravo! All we need is a reliable LT, a punishing RB and a healthy defence! We MIGHT be able to get one of those three things (healthy defence) this year. If we're playing a three-man front now to trick the opposition into running when McFadden and Greenwood are healthy, there might be no playoff spots open by then.
McFadden hasn't looked that great out there. Had one really good game IMO, and then meh the rest. Greenwood is our best defensive player - Shawn Lemon just behind him IMO.

[gilthethrill]

When I see poster such as AV and argolio complaining about the officials, there must be merit. Include the fine INT by Justin Cox on Sunday (that also hurt the Argos regarding the crossover), the CFL, has sunk to a new low. I thought all this attention to improving the refs would eliminate nonsense calls like these.

The game itself, well I would take Dionte Spencer over Owens any day. If Ricky Ray is close to being done, someone forgot to tell him. O-line and secondary continue to be concerns. I think it's too late to fix either at this point. Whittaker is a consummate pro, but he has lost that 1/2 step when he hits the hole.

Making the post season is a long shot now I am afraid. Must win Sunday and then beat Winnipeg next Saturday to climb to 500.

[Argo57]

Are you confident the booth would have seen it that way, had we asked for a review? Based on booth calls this year, I'm certainly not.

Not confident that CFL oficials get anything right, zero common sense applies.
If you just stand there and don't throw the flag you have zero chance of overturning an atrocious call.
What would you prefer Paul, the passive do nothing approach or challenge an obvious bad call?

[paulwoods13]

Not confident that CFL get anything right, zero common sense applies.
If you just stand there and don't throw the flag you have zero chance of overturning an atrocious call.

And 50/50 chance of losing a timeout. With the new rules, coaches are understandably going to be more cautious about throwing the flag. I can see why a coach would want more evidence than frantic gesticulations from his player. They don't have the angle we do on tv until replay is shown. Even watching it live on tv, I wasn't certain it should be overturned. Now stand at field level quite a distance away and try to make an instant judgment.

[Argo57]

And 50/50 chance of losing a timeout. With the new rules, coaches are understandably going to be more cautious about throwing the flag. I can see why a coach would want more evidence than frantic gesticulations from his player. They don't have the angle we do on tv until replay is shown. Even watching it live on tv, I wasn't certain it should be overturned. Now stand at field level quite a distance away and try to make an instant judgment.

Other teams seem to have figured it out.

[PullTogether73]

Other teams seem to have figured it out.

Are you sure?

I'd like to see actual statistical results on challenges being successful or not.
It seems to me that I see Edmonton and Winnipeg losing a lot of challenges.
Hamilton lost one last night.

[ArgoGabe22]

Are you sure?

I'd like to see actual statistical results on challenges being successful or not.
It seems to me that I see Edmonton and Winnipeg losing a lot of challenges.
Hamilton lost one last night.

Jim Popp is as lost as it gets when it comes to challenging a play.

[Argo57]

Are you sure?

I'd like to see actual statistical results on challenges being successful or not.
It seems to me that I see Edmonton and Winnipeg losing a lot of challenges.
Hamilton lost one last night.

Austin had the balls to make an instant decision to challenge, the PI call on Jefferson resulted in a long gain.
Watching the play live you could see both players looking for the ball and getting tangled up, surely the Argonauts have a spotter in the booth looking at these things.
Sometimes you have to trust your instincts and challenge or do nothing and take it up the hoop like the Argos did yesterday.
As soon as I saw that play I was yelling challenge, worth the risk IMO.

[R.J]

Are you sure?

I'd like to see actual statistical results on challenges being successful or not.
It seems to me that I see Edmonton and Winnipeg losing a lot of challenges.
Hamilton lost one last night.
Jones losing a lot of challenges as well in Saskatchewan.

[Argo57]

And 50/50 chance of losing a timeout. With the new rules, coaches are understandably going to be more cautious about throwing the flag. I can see why a coach would want more evidence than frantic gesticulations from his player. They don't have the angle we do on tv until replay is shown. Even watching it live on tv, I wasn't certain it should be overturned. Now stand at field level quite a distance away and try to make an instant judgment.

What did you think of Milanovich "gambling" on a weak challenge on the "late" hit on Ray (I believe by Laurent) down by the Argo end zone later in the game??
Amazing after the momentum had completely shifted Hamilton's way Coach Scott had a change in philosophy and was willing to gamble with a timeout?
Too little too late.

[R.J]

Whether Milanovich challenged or not isn't the problem - CFL officiating and the new rules are the bigger problem. The Fantuz flop was embarrassing, and receivers are now continually running into DB's just to the get the illegal contact flag. Worse yet, the illegal contact on Gurley should have been a PI because Gurley was the target.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Fire Johnson and Ireland, and get rid of illegal contact. No more challenging everything - just Offensive and defensive pass interference. Continue to automatically review points scored, and turnovers, add in review for in and out of bounds (but only if called in by the head referee). The eye in the sky should correct calls and correct ball placement. Lastly, each team is given only one challenge, if successful the team will get one more (only one more though, no matter if successful on the 2nd challenge), and if the call isn't overturned, the team automatically loses 1 or all timeouts, a loss of down (turnover if 3rd down), and a 25 yard delay of game penalty.

[FenderGuy69]

Are you sure?

I'd like to see actual statistical results on challenges being successful or not.
It seems to me that I see Edmonton and Winnipeg losing a lot of challenges.
Hamilton lost one last night.

Here are the numbers up to & through Week 10. (So games completed before the Argos/Lions last Wednesday)


<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
CHALLENGES THROUGH WEEK 10 CFL REGULOAR SEASON 2016











GAMES
CHALLENGES
CHALLENGES PER
SUCCESSFUL
% SUCCESSFUL


BC
9
14
1.556
3
21.43%


CGY
9
7
0.778
0
0.00%


EDM
9
15
1.667
7
46.67%


HAM
9
7
0.778
5
71.43%


MTL
9
12
1.333
5
41.67%


OTT
9
9
1.000
5
55.56%


SSK
9
11
1.222
5
45.45%


TOR
8
10
1.250
5
50.00%


WPG
9
12
1.333
6
50.00%

</tbody>


I'll update through this past weeks/weekend's games ASAP.

[Jon Gonzo]

Argos played hard, and fell short when they got dinged up and ran out of gas having played 2 games in 5 days.

The Refs made it hard, but the better team went in, adjusted at the half and took control.

Milanovich is a very good Coach who always seems to get out-coached by Kent Austin.

I don't believe you ever see better teams get outscored by 26 points in the 2nd Half.

I see some promise in some of these young guys, but that promise leads to nothing in the trainers room, or ultimately if Jim Barker cannot maintain some sort of continuity with this teams roster.

In this league their are probably only 30 HB's and 30 CB's total, and only 18 of them start. You can't have a couple of guys who are 17- 18 on the list and expect to survive great QB's like Collaros, Bo Levi or Mike Reilly. Even the good QB's will have career days. They made wholesale changes a couple years back and the repercussions are still being felt.

Barker needs to answer. Players are giving it everything they have.

[paulwoods13]

Calgary successful on 0% of their challenges. They definitely have the formula!

[R.J]

Calgary successful on 0% of their challenges. They definitely have the formula!
How many games have they won this season again Paul ?
Or better yet, what's there record since Hufnagel took over ?

[paulwoods13]

Or better yet, what's their formula so we can all emulate it? If it's Hufnagel, then only one team at a time can have the formula.

[FenderGuy69]

Here are the numbers up to & through Week 10. (So games completed before the Argos/Lions last Wednesday)


<tbody>
CHALLENGES THROUGH WEEK 10 CFL REGULOAR SEASON 2016











GAMES
CHALLENGES
CHALLENGES PER
SUCCESSFUL
% SUCCESSFUL


BC
9
14
1.556
3
21.43%


CGY
9
7
0.778
0
0.00%


EDM
9
15
1.667
7
46.67%


HAM
9
7
0.778
5
71.43%


MTL
9
12
1.333
5
41.67%


OTT
9
9
1.000
5
55.56%


SSK
9
11
1.222
5
45.45%


TOR
8
10
1.250
5
50.00%


WPG
9
12
1.333
6
50.00%

</tbody>



I'll update through this past weeks/weekend's games ASAP.

UPDATED THROUGH GAMES PLAYED WEEK 11


<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup><tbody>

GAMES
CHALLENGES
PER GAME
SUCCESSFUL
%


BC
10
14
1.4
3
21.43%


CGY
10
7
0.7
0
0.00%


EDM
10
17
1.7
8
47.06%


HAM
10
8
0.8
5
62.50%


MTL
10
14
1.4
6
42.86%


OTT
10
10
1.0
5
50.00%


SSK
10
13
1.3
5
38.46%


TOR
10
13
1.3
5
38.46%


WPG
10
13
1.3
7
53.85%

</tbody>


There's a negative correlation (moderately strong) to the number of challenges, number successful and % successful. So it's not a good measure of winning and losing in the CFL so far this year. Does make sense since teams are more inclined to challenge/go fishing when they are trailing thus looking to try and change momentum or get a lucky desperation call.

[R.J]

Was listening to Tatti and Marsh today, and it was brought up that we've already hit last seasons challenge flag total. We're only at the halfway point of the season!

[ArgoZ]

Or better yet, what's their formula so we can all emulate it? If it's Hufnagel, then only one team at a time can have the formula.

Hard to argue the point you are making. Fans like to bitch and complain (I do too), but the answers and solutions are not so easy. Circumstances beyond control change outcomes of games and seasons (injuries, contracts, NFL departures, bad calls, etc) Play this season over and we might have a winning record with minumum changes of luck. Next to no one gave the Argos any chance these last two games. The team has had more than a chance and at least been competitive, but somehow, everyone is more upset? How does that make sense? Maybe it's heartbreak.

[ArgoRavi]

McFadden hasn't looked that great out there. Had one really good game IMO, and then meh the rest. Greenwood is our best defensive player - Shawn Lemon just behind him IMO.

McFadden has only played one full game, hasn't he?

[REAL]

Will never go back to Tim Horton' Field to watch Argos vs TiCats. worst fan experience ever and has nothing to do with the loss. This is just a game. I don't need to pay to be treated this way.

[R.J]

McFadden has only played one full game, hasn't he?
2 full games, and 2 we'll call half games. He reminds me a little bit of Jones though: struggles on passing downs with coverage. Hence, why I'd like to see Miles at WILL and Greenwood at Mike, if they ever get healthy.

[ArgoRavi]

I was reading Frank Zicarelli's latest article and something that he wrote - and I believe I have seen it on here too - really bugged me. He said that Hamilton beat themselves in the first half last night. If we go by that logic, the Argos then beat themselves in the second half. The Argos forced two fumbles and one interception and had one punt block in the first half. IMO, that isn't a team "beating itself" but a team "making plays". Likewise, the Argos' turnovers in the second half were forced by the Ticats. It wasn't a case on either side of guys just dropping the football.

Hamilton is a better team than the Argos right now but I don't think that the gap is as insurmountable as what Mr. Zicarelli seems to believe. The Argos have to get better play and better coaching but I also happen to believe that they are capable of both.

One more word about officiating. The CFL certainly has its issues with officiating but I will still say that it is better today than it was years ago. Go back and watch some of the games from the 1970s and 1980s on YouTube and you will see puzzling and terrible calls that you don't see today. Does the CFL's officiating need to get better? Yes. Does the challenge system still need some tweaking? Yes. However, I have been disgusted with seeing some people who complain about the CFL's officiating - not on here but elsewhere - going on about how "real football" begins this upcoming Thursday implying that the officiating is better south of the border. When I watch NFL, I really don't see the evidence for that.

[ArgoRavi]

Hard to argue the point you are making. Fans like to bitch and complain (I do too), but the answers and solutions are not so easy. Circumstances beyond control change outcomes of games and seasons (injuries, contracts, NFL departures, bad calls, etc) Play this season over and we might have a winning record with minumum changes of luck. Next to no one gave the Argos any chance these last two games. The team has had more than a chance and at least been competitive, but somehow, everyone is more upset? How does that make sense? Maybe it's heartbreak.

They have certainly been better these past two games and have played with great intensity which seemed to be missing vs. both Winnipeg and Edmonton. They just need to win a game right now. If they can beat Hamilton on Sunday, the outlook will seem much brighter. While they are still suffering some injuries, they are generally getting healthier and getting much closer to fielding the team that they have wanted to field since the start of the season.

IMO, the biggest issue still is the defensive backfield. However, I don't think that lack of talent is the issue. They need to line up the same five guys for a few games consecutively and I think that we will see some substantial improvement. The defensive backfield and the offensive line are two areas where it seems especially important to have continuity as communication between players is so critical.

Speaking of the offensive line, it needs to be better but I do wonder sometimes if it is as bad as we think that it is. I would love to see the stats on sacks and pressures against and compare the Argos with the other 8 CFL teams.

[FenderGuy69]

Speaking of the offensive line, it needs to be better but I do wonder sometimes if it is as bad as we think that it is. I would love to see the stats on sacks and pressures against and compare the Argos with the other 8 CFL teams.

Ask and you shall receive. Data through Week 11.


<tbody>

SACKS
DROP BACKS
%
SACK PER DROP
RANK


BC
23.0
368
6.25%
16.00
5


CGY
10.0
378
2.65%
37.80
1


EDM
20.0
407
4.91%
20.35
2


HAM
25.0
414
6.04%
16.56
3


MTL
32.0
386
8.29%
12.06
9


OTT
31.0
401
7.73%
12.94
8


SSK
28.0
418
6.70%
14.93
6


TOR
26.0
379
6.86%
14.58
7


WPG
24.0
393
6.11%
16.38
4

</tbody>




CFL doesn't track "pressures" as of yet.

Very High Correlations with respect to this stat & winning/losing percentage. Greater than .6. in fact.

I will add a personal opinion here. Common perception is that a good offensive line makes a Quarterback better and while this is probably very true, much research south of the border is now showing that good-great-elite QB's make average-mediocre-poor offensive lines look much better. I would say it's somewhere in between but I think QB play; pocket awareness, release, ability to read & check down ... has a very significant impact. For instance average release is just under 3 seconds in NFL. The more elite QB's have even quicker releases around 2.5-2.6 with poor QB's having around & over 3.

I think Toronto's #'s above are most likely skewed in the games Kilgore started/played. I will have to compare the sack #'s in those versus the ones that Ricky started/played.

(Note: I just went back & checked)

In the games versus OTT, WPG, EDM ... The number of Drop Backs Per Sack was 24.6 or 4.07% of the time ... that's better than the Argos' total season-to-date numbers illustrated above. This came to me as a surprise to be honest quite frankly. Kind of dispels my theory that the better QB makes the line better.

[Stevoman]

I was reading Frank Zicarelli's latest article and something that he wrote - and I believe I have seen it on here too - really bugged me. He said that Hamilton beat themselves in the first half last night. If we go by that logic, the Argos then beat themselves in the second half. The Argos forced two fumbles and one interception and had one punt block in the first half. IMO, that isn't a team "beating itself" but a team "making plays". Likewise, the Argos' turnovers in the second half were forced by the Ticats. It wasn't a case on either side of guys just dropping the football.

Hamilton is a better team than the Argos right now but I don't think that the gap is as insurmountable as what Mr. Zicarelli seems to believe. The Argos have to get better play and better coaching but I also happen to believe that they are capable of both.

One more word about officiating. The CFL certainly has its issues with officiating but I will still say that it is better today than it was years ago. Go back and watch some of the games from the 1970s and 1980s on YouTube and you will see puzzling and terrible calls that you don't see today. Does the CFL's officiating need to get better? Yes. Does the challenge system still need some tweaking? Yes. However, I have been disgusted with seeing some people who complain about the CFL's officiating - not on here but elsewhere - going on about how "real football" begins this upcoming Thursday implying that the officiating is better south of the border. When I watch NFL, I really don't see the evidence for that.

I agree with your assessment. The Argos were doing an excellent job of making plays and capitalizing on their opportunities in the first half. They were taking the ball away, not having it given to them. I think where the media, Frank Z and the TSN panel as well, were coming from was that the Argos were not scoring touchdowns without the help of the defence or special teams. That can only go so long and it was clear that the Tiger Cats offence was better than Toronto's and that it was only a matter of time before the score swung the other way.

[PullTogether73]

I agree with your assessment. The Argos were doing an excellent job of making plays and capitalizing on their opportunities in the first half. They were taking the ball away, not having it given to them. I think where the media, Frank Z and the TSN panel as well, were coming from was that the Argos were not scoring touchdowns without the help of the defence or special teams. That can only go so long and it was clear that the Tiger Cats offence was better than Toronto's and that it was only a matter of time before the score swung the other way.

Thank you for explaining the case I was making with my comments during the game.:hug:

[argolio]

One more word about officiating. The CFL certainly has its issues with officiating but I will still say that it is better today than it was years ago. Go back and watch some of the games from the 1970s and 1980s on YouTube and you will see puzzling and terrible calls that you don't see today. Does the CFL's officiating need to get better? Yes. Does the challenge system still need some tweaking? Yes. However, I have been disgusted with seeing some people who complain about the CFL's officiating - not on here but elsewhere - going on about how "real football" begins this upcoming Thursday implying that the officiating is better south of the border. When I watch NFL, I really don't see the evidence for that.I expect bad calls. The hope is to have as few as possible, and if there are a lot, to have them balanced out between both teams. Monday was not such a game. Works both ways, as there have been Argo games where we have benefited from bad calls. When the officials don't provide a balanced enough playing field, the game suffers.

Maybe the league should have a real-time review system where they can stop the play and review every play when there's a question of catch/not a catch, in bounds/not in bounds, TD/not a TD (assuming no TD is called). I think NCAA football has something like this. The CFL already has the technology in place, and uses it to clarify certain penalty calls with the officials. Why not use it to make sure they get basic calls right every play?

[PullTogether73]

Maybe the league should have a real-time review system where they can stop the play and review every play when there's a question of catch/not a catch, in bounds/not in bounds, TD/not a TD (assuming no TD is called).

Must be a "lost in translation" thing for me.

What do you mean by "stop the play and review every play" in real-time?
???

[Argo57]

Or better yet, what's their formula so we can all emulate it? If it's Hufnagel, then only one team at a time can have the formula.

Here's the only formula that matters Paul.
Calgary 8 1 1
Toronto 4 6

[Will]

I agree with your assessment. The Argos were doing an excellent job of making plays and capitalizing on their opportunities in the first half. They were taking the ball away, not having it given to them. I think where the media, Frank Z and the TSN panel as well, were coming from was that the Argos were not scoring touchdowns without the help of the defence or special teams. That can only go so long and it was clear that the Tiger Cats offence was better than Toronto's and that it was only a matter of time before the score swung the other way.

I agree with you Stevoman. I felt that if the Tiger-Cats eliminated those turnovers in the second half that they'd move the ball downfield with impunity, which is virtually what happened.

[Will]

Will never go back to Tim Horton' Field to watch Argos vs TiCats. worst fan experience ever and has nothing to do with the loss. This is just a game. I don't need to pay to be treated this way.

Could you be a little more specific?

Chants like "Argos suck" are to be expected at THF, but I suspect with you it was something more?

[Argo57]

I agree with you Stevoman. I felt that if the Tiger-Cats eliminated those turnovers in the second half that they'd move the ball downfield with impunity, which is virtually what happened.

The TSN panel brought up the likelihood of this happening at halftime.
Actually Hamilton made it look embarrassingly easy, the Argo D had no answers in the second half.
Does anyone know where Ricky Foley is, haven't seen him all season??

[Jon Gonzo]

The TSN panel brought up the likelihood of this happening at halftime.
Actually Hamilton made it look embarrassingly easy, the Argo D had no answers in the second half.
Does anyone know where Ricky Foley is, haven't seen him all season??

Tristan Okpaulago time? Hickman must be under the scope too. Okpaulago - Bishop - Waud - Lemon (Robertson/ Hall/ Foley/ Walker). That may keep our edges better contained.

[Argo57]

Tristan Okpaulago time? Hickman must be under the scope too. Okpaulago - Bishop - Waud - Lemon (Robertson/ Hall/ Foley/ Walker). That may keep our edges better contained.

Would be a definite improvement Gonzo, the D line has been largely ineffective this season.

[PullTogether73]

Will never go back to Tim Horton' Field to watch Argos vs TiCats. worst fan experience ever and has nothing to do with the loss. This is just a game. I don't need to pay to be treated this way.

I have to laugh at this REAL.
I completely agree and came to the exact same conclusion over the last two years.
The Tiger-Cats will get no money out of me for tickets again.

I've posted my experiences/reasons before on this forum.
What did it for you?

[Antwon]

"If you have the game recorded take a look at the coaches handshake tells you what Milanovich thinks of Austin.
Noticed it last year as well. "

Missed it, what happened??

[Argo]

I have to laugh at this REAL.
I completely agree and came to the exact same conclusion over the last two years.
The Tiger-Cats will get no money out of me for tickets again.

I've posted my experiences/reasons before on this forum.
What did it for you?

I was at THF for the latest playoff loss. Obviously cheering for the Argos. Not one problem with Ti-Cat fans. Not even a bad vibration.

[Reggiemac]

Yes McFaddens absence really hurt us. You could see that strategy was to invite the cats to run the ball with a 3 man DL wide spaced. If he was in and healthy and Grenwood in it might have worked well. They used it on what would normally be passing downs. Interesting to see the stamps doing the same thing yesterday. But they are healthy. We did play with some emotion but we still need to kep Ricky upright and find a RB who can instill fear in the Defence. The D will be fine once we can dress the same players for a few games.

[Reggiemac]

The argos shouldnt rely on TSN for the replays, have their own video crew upstairs. Butit isnt guaranteed cause we have seen some strange calls from video reviews as well.

[Reggiemac]

Maybe hire a retired ref to watch the game and assist. Bet there would be some refs wouldnlike thevwork.

[ArgoGabe22]

Maybe hire a retired ref to watch the game and assist. Bet there would be some refs wouldnlike thevwork.

Like the one who runs the command centre? LOL

[paulwoods13]

The argos shouldnt rely on TSN for the replays, have their own video crew upstairs. Butit isnt guaranteed cause we have seen some strange calls from video reviews as well.

How would they do that -- have their own video equipment set up to record the broadcast and instantly play back any play? Not practical.

[AngeloV]

How would they do that -- have their own video equipment set up to record the broadcast and instantly play back any play? Not practical.

Only thing they can do in such a scenario, would be to have one of their rotation D-Lineman fake an injury. That would buy them the time they need.

[paulwoods13]

2 full games, and 2 we'll call half games. He reminds me a little bit of Jones though: struggles on passing downs with coverage. Hence, why I'd like to see Miles at WILL and Greenwood at Mike, if they ever get healthy.

IIRC he left Game 1 very early, and same thing this week. I don't think we've seen enough of him to know what he's capable of on passing downs; we may never know if he can't find a way to stay healthy. I also wouldn't mind seeing both Miles and Greenwood starting. It sucks that they are out as well.

[Argo57]

IIRC he left Game 1 very early, and same thing this week. I don't think we've seen enough of him to know what he's capable of on passing downs; we may never know if he can't find a way to stay healthy. I also wouldn't mind seeing both Miles and Greenwood starting. It sucks that they are out as well.

He won't be around long of he can't stay upright, lack of durability not a good trait for your MLB.

[argolio]

Must be a "lost in translation" thing for me.

What do you mean by "stop the play and review every play" in real-time?
???They (command centre in Toronto) would be able to signal the ref to stop the game in order to review the previous play if they have an issue. NCAA football uses something like this.

Not saying that would be perfect, but the league needs to find a way to get basic calls right as often as possible, and with as little disruption to the game as possible.

[argoscott]

It's fine to not care about the NFL, of course, but I'd bet that plenty of "true die hard CFL fans" are NFL fans as well. I think TSN's coverage does a pretty good job of providing useful NFL info without distracting from its coverage of our league.

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. :)

[paulwoods13]

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. :)

Disagree. I like NFL and love CFL, so do others on this board and elsewhere. I also enjoy college football in both countries. Football is a great sport under both sets of rules.

[Argo]

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. :)

Well, I can't speak for others, but I sure serve two masters, and they're bloody slave-drivers. Their names are Gibson and Fender. : ))

[AngeloV]

Disagree. I like NFL and love CFL, so do others on this board and elsewhere. I also enjoy college football in both countries. Football is a great sport under both sets of rules.

I'm in the same boat. Love it all.