Markham leaders to meet on NHL arena proposal

[R.J]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=393531
Personally I don't think this is a great idea in trying to build an NHL-calibre arena in that area, I also highly doubt that another NHL franchise would come anytime soon (Hamilton's still waiting for theirs), also it's highly unlikely that Markham would be able to take away much if any of the concerts and events that are currently held in Toronto/ACC. It's almost similar to the PHX arena situation it's a great venue and entertainment district just built in the wrong area.

[Mulder]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=393531
Personally I don't think this is a great idea in trying to build an NHL-calibre arena in that area, I also highly doubt that another NHL franchise would come anytime soon (Hamilton's still waiting for theirs), also it's highly unlikely that Markham would be able to take away much if any of the concerts and events that are currently held in Toronto/ACC. It's almost similar to the PHX arena situation it's a great venue and entertainment district just built in the wrong area.

I think it's less if any about an NHL team, and more about building a entertainment venue. Media is playing up the 'NHL Calibre' part, for whatever reason. I think the Market does warrant another entertainment venue like such in the GTA. Glendale arena works fine for all the teams around there, and really isn't in a bad location, it's that the PHX area hasn't taken to hockey. I partly think that Markham is going to do this to define it's self as something else than another GTA Suburb. The whole plan for the area around the proposed arena is just amazing.

[R.J]

I think it's less if any about an NHL team, and more about building a entertainment venue. Media is playing up the 'NHL Calibre' part, for whatever reason. I think the Market does warrant another entertainment venue like such in the GTA. Glendale arena works fine for all the teams around there, and really isn't in a bad location, it's that the PHX area hasn't taken to hockey. I partly think that Markham is going to do this to define it's self as something else than another GTA Suburb. The whole plan for the area around the proposed arena is just amazing.
Sorry Mulder going to have to disagree, having been to Glendale and watching a Yotes game the entire West Gate/Stadium/arena set up was done brilliantly, but Glendale was the wrong place to build, it should have been built in Scottsdale, 73% of hockey/Yotes fans that attend games live in PHX or the east end (Mesa, Scottsdale, Chandler, Gilbert, and Tempe) which is also where the majority of the population lives in the PHX metro. Yes hockey hasn't taken there, but the game has grown exponentially, I'm not stating that it would have been successful and the Yotes would've have been embraced like here in Canada, but the team would be a lot stronger in the East End or in downtown PHX. I also don't believe it's just the media playing the NHL calibre arena, the entire set up sounds great and could be a huge entertainment district, but even the owners specifically stating how much seating the was for NHL hockey not the media. The area is just wrong IMO, yeah the complex sounds great, but how many events realistically will they "take" from Toronto, what big events would rather do a show in Markham or Toronto, like I've said a very similar situation to PHX.

[Mulder]

Sorry Mulder going to have to disagree, having been to Glendale and watching a Yotes game the entire West Gate/Stadium/arena set up was done brilliantly, but Glendale was the wrong place to build, it should have been built in Scottsdale, 73% of hockey/Yotes fans that attend games live in PHX or the east end (Mesa, Scottsdale, Chandler, Gilbert, and Tempe) which is also where the majority of the population lives in the PHX metro. Yes hockey hasn't taken there, but the game has grown exponentially, I'm not stating that it would have been successful and the Yotes would've have been embraced like here in Canada, but the team would be a lot stronger in the East End or in downtown PHX. I also don't believe it's just the media playing the NHL calibre arena, the entire set up sounds great and could be a huge entertainment district, but even the owners specifically stating how much seating the was for NHL hockey not the media. The area is just wrong IMO, yeah the complex sounds great, but how many events realistically will they "take" from Toronto, what big events would rather do a show in Markham or Toronto, like I've said a very similar situation to PHX.

I don't believe at all that PHX arena location is all that bad. I've heard it's pretty easy to get to. Infact, I don't think it's all that different than the Argo's situation in the past. Unstable shaking ownership and a cruddy team. Not sure I'd want to go either. If people are fans and want to goto a game, they'll go regardless of arena location.

As for the "Yes hockey hasn't taken there, but the game has grown exponentially," comment. I heard on either Tim and Sidd or Bob today, that sure, Flyers/Penns series is getting amazing ratings in the US, but it's still less than a regular season leaf game rating IN ONTARIO ONLY Take that as you will I guess.

No way do I think an NHL team is coming to Markham. And as for events, it's supply and demand, lots of people live in Markham/Richmond Hill/Vaughan/North York/Northern Scarborough. Who find it hard to get to downtown and don't want to sit in public transit. This offers that flexibility and the ACC is automatically booked 110+ nights a year with leafs/raptors/rock, mostly in the Winter months as well and when your only other competition is closed. (Molson Amphitheatre) This as well offers Markham a huge convention space. Look at the Sprint Center in Kansas City, it's a very profitable arena with no major sports tenant at all.

[argolio]

how many events realistically will they "take" from Toronto, what big events would rather do a show in Markham or TorontoMaybe they can offer better terms to some promoters. Another venue would also give big acts more options and the possibility of more Toronto dates if the ACC isn't available. And York Region's population went from half a million to a million people in the last 20 years, and could add another 1/2 million in the next 20 years with all the massive development (mostly in Markham and neighbouring Vaughan) going on there, not to mention an arena in Markham could draw from northern Toronto and Durham.

As for the possibility of an NHL team, Florida, New Jersey, and the NY Islanders (among others) are serious candidates to move, and good luck to the NHL finding homes for all of them if that happens. Unless the NHL decides to contract some teams, the Markham guys might just have a team fall in their laps like Winnipeg or (assuming it happens) Quebec City.

[R.J]

I don't believe at all that PHX arena location is all that bad. I've heard it's pretty easy to get to. Infact, I don't think it's all that different than the Argo's situation in the past. Unstable shaking ownership and a cruddy team. Not sure I'd want to go either. If people are fans and want to goto a game, they'll go regardless of arena location.

As for the "Yes hockey hasn't taken there, but the game has grown exponentially," comment. I heard on either Tim and Sidd or Bob today, that sure, Flyers/Penns series is getting amazing ratings in the US, but it's still less than a regular season leaf game rating IN ONTARIO ONLY Take that as you will I guess.

No way do I think an NHL team is coming to Markham. And as for events, it's supply and demand, lots of people live in Markham/Richmond Hill/Vaughan/North York/Northern Scarborough. Who find it hard to get to downtown and don't want to sit in public transit. This offers that flexibility and the ACC is automatically booked 110+ nights a year with leafs/raptors/rock, mostly in the Winter months as well and when your only other competition is closed. (Molson Amphitheatre) This as well offers Markham a huge convention space. Look at the Sprint Center in Kansas City, it's a very profitable arena with no major sports tenant at all.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
However the ratings comment is wrong as the Pens and Flyers game registered a 2.3 rating (http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/04/16/nhl-stanley-cup-playoff-overnight-ratings-up-50-on-nbc/129345/), which HNIC gets but not even the Leafs on Sportsnet or TSN achieve. Plus my comment was made to the game growing in PHX/Arizona, there are more community hockey rinks in the PHX metro then there is in Toronto (not the GTA though), hockey is the fastest growing sport being played in Arizona currently.
Also should point out that Copps Coliseum in Hamilton bleeds money every year, and the Sprint Center in the only arena of its kind in KC, the next closest 18,000 seat arena is in St. Louis which is 248 miles away, a big difference compared to Markham and Toronto or even Hamilton and Toronto.
I also completely disagree that the Argos woes can be placed on unstable ownership.

[Mulder]

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
However the ratings comment is wrong as the Pens and Flyers game registered a 2.3 rating (http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/04/16/nhl-stanley-cup-playoff-overnight-ratings-up-50-on-nbc/129345/), which HNIC gets but not even the Leafs on Sportsnet or TSN achieve.

My comment was what I heard on the Fan590 Yesterday. 2.3 rating equals about ~2.7 million About the population of Toronto, in a country of over 300 million.


Plus my comment was made to the game growing in PHX/Arizona, there are more community hockey rinks in the PHX metro then there is in Toronto (not the GTA though),

Can you provide link for proof?
I've counted 109 municipal operated indoor and outdoor rinks in Toronto. (58 indoor, 51 outdoor). I spent the last 30 minutes looking on google earth for any outdoors in the area (didn't find any). I can find 19 rinks total in Arizona in about another 30 minutes of searches.



hockey is the fastest growing sport being played in Arizona currently.


Pretty naive comment, IMO, Hockey was/is so far down the totem pole that the only place for it to go is up.


Also should point out that Copps Coliseum in Hamilton bleeds money every year,


and the Sprint Center in the only arena of its kind in KC, the next closest 18,000 seat arena is in St. Louis which is 248 miles away,
Really? What about this arena?? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemper_Arena) 2.4 miles away.
Sure, it's proposed to be taken down, not really used anymore. But you stated the next closest arena, etc.

Or what about LA's 2 arena's 3.8 miles apart?
Or New York arena's 4 arenas?
St Paul and Minneapolis Arenas 10 miles apart?

What about Ottawa's or Vancouver's 2 major arenas?


a big difference compared to Markham and Toronto or even Hamilton and Toronto.

Compared to above? Not really now eh.


I also completely disagree that the Argos woes can be placed on unstable ownership.
I didn't completely say it's the sole reason, but to the casual person who see something like that may cause them not to goto a game.

[R.J]

My comment was what I heard on the Fan590 Yesterday. 2.3 rating equals about ~2.7 million About the population of Toronto, in a country of over 300 million.
That's a different argument though, you did state that the Leafs getting that rating which they don't, hockey is in Canada what the NFL is down south.

Can you provide link for proof?
I've counted 109 municipal operated indoor and outdoor rinks in Toronto. (58 indoor, 51 outdoor). I spent the last 30 minutes looking on google earth for any outdoors in the area (didn't find any). I can find 19 rinks total in Arizona in about another 30 minutes of searches.
You are correct and I apologize, I had found 40 indoor rinks in Toronto, and 21 in the PHX, as I stated when I pm'd you honestly thought a lot of arenas were taken down, remember reading somewhere that the city was looking into it, makes no difference though as there is still clearly way more in T.O

Pretty naive comment, IMO, Hockey was/is so far down the totem pole that the only place for it to go is up.
You are correct, but the reason I find it interesting, is that it only seemed to go up that last 5 years, first 10 years in PHX the Yotes had little to no effect.

Really? What about this arena?? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemper_Arena) 2.4 miles away.
Sure, it's proposed to be taken down, not really used anymore. But you stated the next closest arena, etc.

Or what about LA's 2 arena's 3.8 miles apart?
Or New York arena's 4 arenas?
St Paul and Minneapolis Arenas 10 miles apart?

What about Ottawa's or Vancouver's 2 major arenas?
We were talking about the competition for events, so I assumed that would be taken into context, I apologize if I didn't make that part clear.
Kemper arena is planned for demo, and the Sprint Center was built to replace it in 2007, Kemper is mainly used for community events nowadays, in terms of bringing in concerts and large scale events, Scottrade Center, is the only competition with the Sprint Center.
L.A has a Metro of 12 million, New York Close to 19 million and the Honda Center loses money, Nassau bleeds money, Minnesota's arenas both have lost money and the NHL's Wild average 5 million in loses per season.
Ottawa's and Vancouver's arenas are not similar and zero competition to each other in terms of events.

I didn't completely say it's the sole reason, but to the casual person who see something like that may cause them not to goto a game.
I highly doubt that's why Argo fans are not showing up, and I have little doubt that it even has much effect. The Perception of the CFL is what cripples the Argos, ask most people don't even know that the Argos have had issues with management and or ownership.

[1argoholic]

Too bad we're not talking about a stadium. I don't care if they build an arena. I guess another major jr team can play there. I guess Markham still has the Provincial Jr Waxers doesn't it? I don't see NHL hockey going to Markham. That has to be the real reason this folks want to build.

[Deerkeeper]

One thing this shows is that there is private money available for the construction of sports stadiums in this city. Someone just has to slap them up the side of the head and get them to see the uselessness of this idea and get them to put some of that money into a stadium. Unlike their future Copps Colosseum, they will have a guaranteed tenant at likely less cost, and if built right (no BMO), they could siphon business away not only from the ACC, but Rogers Playpen as well.

[argolio]

I'm sure Hamilton thought that even without the NHL they could make Copps work.Based on talks with Ziegler in the mid-80s, Hamilton thought they were almost guaranteed to get an NHL team. Instead that guarantee turned into the Ottawa Senators, and, depending which theory you believe, Hamilton was vetoed by the Leafs and/or Sabres.

[R.J]

http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/Anton%20Thun%20Gameday%20Apr%2030.mp3

[Mulder]

http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/Anton%20Thun%20Gameday%20Apr%2030.mp3

I think there is a lot of similarities to this and the Ottawa Stadium.
Although the Ottawa stadium wasn't pushed though, and there doesn't seem to be much opposition to this project. Does seem to be a lack of transparency.
Only 2 things come to mind as to why the moved this quick, they know something they are not sharing, or another northern Toronto community is also working on a project. I seem to remember Vaughn being named not to long ago as looking into an arena.

The whole plan for the area is starting to take shape. Drove by it on the weekend, plan is in 8 years for all day 2 way GO service to Unionville.
This isn't another Glendale as I have been listening to on the radio. People will be living steps from this arena, with that whole area having the same density as downtown Toronto.