Yes it's True...I've Jumped Ship [Archive]

argomANIA

11-02-2016, 06:31 PM

After more then 20 years and about 15 seasons as a Season Ticket Holder I have decided that I needed to take my money where I get more value. This wasn't something I have taken lightly and I can assure you I've shed some tears. I love football and the CFL but over the past couple of seasons we have felt that what the CFL prides itself on has started to decline in Toronto. We tried to remain optimistic year after year but there is no sign of improvement on the horizon.

One of my favourite parts of being a CFL fan is the access to players. The relationships that we are able to build with each other. However over the last couple of seasons the opportunities to create these memorable friendships has diminished. We have seen the demise of the very popular Fan Day. A great opportunity to get fans involved and excited about the upcoming season. There are no more autograph sessions on field after the games. There just aren’t very many events for fans to enjoy.

-I have won two trips to the Grey Cup as the Argos biggest fan.
-I own over 20 Argo jerseys
-My dogs name is Argo
-Custom Argo Licence plates
-I was invited into the team Grey Cup Victory party in 2012 and O'Shea made me drink from the Cup.
-My wedding was Argo themed and even attended by Pinball and Jordan Younger

That's just a small portion of my journey as a fan...to me it's about way more then football. Theres no other professional league in this world that you can make those kind of memories with.

I've written a letter to Copeland and Orridge explaining my decision. I didn't like how the move to BMO was handled. I was given one price point by a ticket rep. When it came to my turn to select seats I was told that price point didn't exist. Those tickets were $200 more per seat then I was told. Our schedule was yet again terrible. You can get tickets for as low at $7 per game on Stubhub to an empty stadium. The biggest slap in the face is the merchandise discount to me. If you want a crested jersey you have to order online and pay shipping. This whole Grey Cup thing was just the final straw for us.

This is not a final goodbye. It’s hopefully a see you later. My heart will always belong to the Argos, I honestly still don't know what colour I will wear on Labour Day. My whole identity is currently lost and I'm still struggling a bit with this decision.

argonaut11xx

11-02-2016, 06:40 PM

That's a sad commentary, my wife and I had the pleasure to meet with you in 2012 at a meet and greet in Scarborough arranged by this site.

I truly hope that things work out.

Will

11-02-2016, 06:46 PM

This is a pretty sad indictment on the new regime.
I really, really hope somebody is paying attention.

PullTogether73

11-02-2016, 06:51 PM

TBH, you sound a bit entitled.

I've been a STH for 11 years and a fan since the 1970s.
I haven't come close to experiencing the things that you have as an Argonauts fan.
Yes, somewhat disappointing with the Argonauts this year in several aspects, but it is the first year of new ownership and a new venue, plus hosting the Grey Cup. I think it is fair to give the new owners/managers a year to get their feet wet so to speak.

IMO, it's too soon to jump ship.
It is still being retrofitted.

Scooter McCray

11-02-2016, 06:58 PM

I may not renew my seasons tickets that I have had since 1983. But I will definitely be going back to games on flex packs. I am still an Argo fan. It was a disappointing season on and off the field but I am not writing the team off and where there are opportunities try to communicate to the front office my thoughts I will do so as I have in the past. This team has given me plenty of positive moments and memories that still outweigh the last 2 seasons. The 100th GC win alone is worth a few crappy seasons. It sounds like you have had the benefit of some extra memories as well over the years that most people don't have. Good luck building new experiences with the new team. I don't believe they have won as many championships however.

Mightygoose

11-02-2016, 07:01 PM

I guess can't ask where you're jumping ship to (black and gold perhaps?) or just off the ship completely.

It's really bad that it's come to this and hopefully if you are still a 'free agent' that it's not too late and hopefully the organization is reading these posts and taking them seriously.

Though they deserve the backlash, they'll be spending too much time on retention as opposed to building the fanbase up again.

I'd be curious to see how soon Mr. Copeland and/or Orridge reply. Hopefully they will. Please share :)

argomANIA

11-02-2016, 07:46 PM

TBH, you sound a bit entitled.

You have a right to your opinion as I have to mine. That's the beauty of this country. Not sure how I sound entitled...I'm not asking for anything other than to be appreciated as a fan.

I guess can't ask where you're jumping ship to (black and gold perhaps?) or just off the ship completely.

It's really bad that it's come to this and hopefully if you are still a 'free agent' that it's not too late and hopefully the organization is reading these posts and taking them seriously.

Though they deserve the backlash, they'll be spending too much time on retention as opposed to building the fanbase up again.

I'd be curious to see how soon Mr. Copeland and/or Orridge reply. Hopefully they will. Please share :)

I will definitely share what I can. And yes....i moved over to the dark side. The black and gold.

Argo57

11-02-2016, 08:02 PM

You have a right to your opinion as I have to mine. That's the beauty of this country. Not sure how I sound entitled...I'm not asking for anything other than to be appreciated as a fan.

I will definitely share what I can. And yes....i moved over to the dark side. The black and gold.

No need to apologize about the experiences you have enjoyed as an Argo fan Ania.
I had seasons in the Hammer last year, that organization understands their fan base and treats them very well.
Diehards like you leaving is both sad and alarming. I posted a week or two back about several of my work colleagues (also long time ST holders) not renewing in 2017, how will they replace these fans?

Neely2005

11-02-2016, 09:08 PM

Despite all his words to make season ticket holders a priority after all they've been through the last few years Michael Copeland failed miserably. There was almost 0 benefit to being a season ticket holder this season. We were treated worse than under Braley IMO.

PullTogether73

11-02-2016, 09:30 PM

You have a right to your opinion as I have to mine. That's the beauty of this country. Not sure how I sound entitled...I'm not asking for anything other than to be appreciated as a fan.

My point is that you have received a good deal more than virtually all long(er) term Argonauts fans.

We haven't received two free trips to the Grey Cup.
We weren't invited to drink from the Grey Cup by Argonauts players.
We didn't have Argonauts players attend any personal functions.

Yet, you seem to expect new owners/managers to provide you with some type of insider's privileges that you had under previous owners.
Maybe they don't know you yet.
Maybe they have been too busy with other things associated with taking over a team, moving that team to a new venue, getting licenses/approvals for a new game day function (tailgating), planning the league's championship game and festival.
Hence my comment about the new owners try to retrofit a listing ship.

I believe if you were to stick around and influence the changes you seek, along with the rest of us dedicated Argonauts fans, you would possibly be satisfied.

Was it a bad year for the Argonauts organization?
Clearly yes. Both on the field and off.
But it is the first year of a new "admiralcy".
I believe they deserve more than one year to get everything right for us.

Did Bob Young get everything right in his first year as owner of the Tiger-Cats?

ArgoGabe22

11-02-2016, 09:45 PM

My point is that you have received a good deal more than virtually all long(er) term Argonauts fans.

We haven't received two free trips to the Grey Cup.
We weren't invited to drink from the Grey Cup by Argonauts players.
We didn't have Argonauts players attend any personal functions.

Yet, you seem to expect new owners/managers to provide you with some type of insider's privileges that you had under previous owners.

Don't think she's expecting any of this. I had perceived it as her just saying how hard it was to make the decision since she's had such experiences, plus that she's no fairweather fan.

I must admit, I thought player accessibility has been pretty poor this season. It's a league wide issue, more so with media though. It's definitely not what it once was but sometimes I don't know. Maybe because I was younger, perhaps I was more involved then? But it does seem that there are less and less opportunities as time goes by? I'm a pretty avid collector, hope to one day post everything I have, but this year I didn't get anything signed. Just couldn't get anything done outside of the practice times.

Thing is, ownership and Copeland are not new. New to the Argos but they must have had many discussions on the Argos when Copeland was the COO.

doubleblue

11-03-2016, 09:07 AM

Don't think she's expecting any of this. I had perceived it as her just saying how hard it was to make the decision since she's had such experiences, plus that she's no fairweather fan.

I must admit, I thought player accessibility has been pretty poor this season. It's a league wide issue, more so with media though. It's definitely not what it once was but sometimes I don't know. Maybe because I was younger, perhaps I was more involved then? But it does seem that there are less and less opportunities as time goes by? I'm a pretty avid collector, hope to one day post everything I have, but this year I didn't get anything signed. Just couldn't get anything done outside of the practice times.

Thing is, ownership and Copeland are not new. New to the Argos but they must have had many discussions on the Argos when Copeland was the COO.

Maybe they thought the access the fans have now to the players coming out of their dressing room to the playing field was good enough.

paulwoods13

11-03-2016, 10:41 AM

Maybe they had a lot of stuff to figure out in a short span of time, and as a result didn't achieve perfection in Year 1. Is there no patience in this world any more?

Will

11-03-2016, 10:45 AM

Will

11-03-2016, 10:46 AM

Maybe they had a lot of stuff to figure out in a short span of time, and as a result didn't achieve perfection in Year 1. Is there no patience in this world any more?

I wouldn't discount the possibility that they bit off more then they could chew.

paulwoods13

11-03-2016, 10:53 AM

I think it would be totally one thing if the new regime didn't make any improvements, but at the same time did not already add onto the damage caused by years of neglect. Can we honesty say that they haven't added to that damage? Nope.

The team sucked on the field (not something Copeland et al could reasonably have foreseen) but how did they "add to the damage" off the field? By over-pricing GC tickets? (Which they did, and which they have corrected, to the satisfaction of at least some of those directly affected.) By not having a fan day for the few dozen people who would go? By not offering merch discounts? We have a better stadium, a better game-day experience and a reasonable prospect of a better home schedule in future years, yet we are worse off than we were a year ago?

AngeloV

11-03-2016, 11:07 AM

This is a pretty sad indictment on the new regime.
I really, really hope somebody is paying attention.

I think it's overblown. Just my opinion.

I paid $200 per seat for my season tickets this year, and I sit in the upper level on the 10 yard line. I have been credited 20 for the non playoff game, so I got 1 pre season and 9 regular season games for a total of $180. IMO, you can't beat that deal anywhere in sports. I don't expect any additional perks as I knew what I was paying for before I put my money down. Have I enjoyed town halls and draft parties in the past? Yes I have. But never have I made something like that a condition on purchasing my tickets.

At the end of the day it is Ania's choice to do what she wants. I just can't agree with her reasoning here. If the team sent me to a grey cup (let alone 2) on their dollar, I would never turn my back on them no matter what.

Scooter McCray

11-03-2016, 11:50 AM

I do think the new regime overpriced Argo Seats as well. As my SS were more than in the past. They overestimated the degree of interest in the team which was surprising given Copeland s experience at the league level. As long as they don't bail on the team and show some enthusiasm for the team they will learn on the job. 2 free GCS and Pinball at personal functions and she is bailing on the team? Wow. Hope she finds what she is looking for.

R.J

11-03-2016, 12:13 PM

Ania's not the only one around here to get Ticat ST's. Although, going full blown Ticat is another matter.

Neely2005

11-03-2016, 12:28 PM

Maybe they had a lot of stuff to figure out in a short span of time, and as a result didn't achieve perfection in Year 1. Is there no patience in this world any more?

Maybe the president shouldn't say that they're going to make season ticket holders their focus and then do less for season ticket holders than the previous owner did.

Neely2005

11-03-2016, 12:34 PM

The team sucked on the field (not something Copeland et al could reasonably have foreseen) but how did they "add to the damage" off the field? By over-pricing GC tickets? (Which they did, and which they have corrected, to the satisfaction of at least some of those directly affected.) By not having a fan day for the few dozen people who would go? By not offering merch discounts? We have a better stadium, a better game-day experience and a reasonable prospect of a better home schedule in future years, yet we are worse off than we were a year ago?

Under the previous owner season ticket holders received:

A gift (Book, DVD, Flag, Glasses... )
Merchandise Discount Card
Free extra tickets to the home opener (not every year)
Townhall (not every year)
Fan Day
Entry into draws for autographed merchandise and seat upgrades.

So tell me how season ticket holders were Not worse off than a year ago?

PullTogether73

11-03-2016, 01:22 PM

argomANIA

11-03-2016, 01:47 PM

I think it's overblown. Just my opinion.

I paid $200 per seat for my season tickets this year, and I sit in the upper level on the 10 yard line. I have been credited 20 for the non playoff game, so I got 1 pre season and 9 regular season games for a total of $180. IMO, you can't beat that deal anywhere in sports. I don't expect any additional perks as I knew what I was paying for before I put my money down. Have I enjoyed town halls and draft parties in the past? Yes I have. But never have I made something like that a condition on purchasing my tickets.

At the end of the day it is Ania's choice to do what she wants. I just can't agree with her reasoning here. If the team sent me to a grey cup (let alone 2) on their dollar, I would never turn my back on them no matter what.

Agreed, it's my choice of how I spend my hard earned money. I never said the team sent me to those Grey Cups. They were sponsored contests that I had to work hard to prove how big of an Argo fan I was...gather votes and so on. Nothing's been handed to me.

My point is that you have received a good deal more than virtually all long(er) term Argonauts fans.

We haven't received two free trips to the Grey Cup.
We weren't invited to drink from the Grey Cup by Argonauts players.
We didn't have Argonauts players attend any personal functions.

Yet, you seem to expect new owners/managers to provide you with some type of insider's privileges that you had under previous owners.
Maybe they don't know you yet.
Maybe they have been too busy with other things associated with taking over a team, moving that team to a new venue, getting licenses/approvals for a new game day function (tailgating), planning the league's championship game and festival.
Hence my comment about the new owners try to retrofit a listing ship.

Again, never did I say all these were 'given' to me. I've worked hard, invested a lot of my time and money into this team. For about 10 seasons I took off one weeks vacation just to attend training camp. I built relationships with the players on a personal level that fueled my passion. None of the previous owners "knew" me. Nothing was handed to me. I probably own almost every piece of Argo merchandise form shirts to jackets to hats from the last 20 years.
What I'm saying is that when it all began I was 13 years old. These events and interactions with the players is what made me a fan. I feel like this is what the city needs to build a new fan base. Again, just my opinion.

Neely2005

11-03-2016, 01:53 PM

If I recall correctly, you have stated that you have gone to both the tailgates and the Shipyard.
How many times did you attend those in previous years?

I went to every Tailgate this season and paid $30 x 10 to go for them. I've also attended what the Argonauts called Tailgates at the Rogers Centre and they were free.

I haven't been to the Shipyard as I was at the Tailgates.

paulwoods13

11-03-2016, 02:50 PM

Under the previous owner season ticket holders received:

A gift (Book, DVD, Flag, Glasses... )
Merchandise Discount Card
Free extra tickets to the home opener (not every year)
Townhall (not every year)
Fan Day
Entry into draws for autographed merchandise and seat upgrades.

So tell me how season ticket holders were Not worse off than a year ago?

How many of those things you have just described were part of "the deal" a year ago? Some of them certainly weren't. Most if not all of those things on your list have not been regularly offered to STHs. Free tickets some years, not all as you say. Merch discount some years, not all. Townhalls almost never -- two that I can remember in the past 35 years. (And I would like those to come back, for the record.) Fan day has never had anything to do with season's tickets.

I like free Argo stuff as much as anybody, and some of the gifts over the years have been nice. A few have even been useful. But I buy STs not for free stuff but to support a team I care about. The other stuff is nice but not essential to my customer satisfaction.

Neely2005

11-03-2016, 03:14 PM

How many of those things you have just described were part of "the deal" a year ago? Some of them certainly weren't. Most if not all of those things on your list have not been regularly offered to STHs. Free tickets some years, not all as you say. Merch discount some years, not all. Townhalls almost never -- two that I can remember in the past 35 years. (And I would like those to come back, for the record.) Fan day has never had anything to do with season's tickets.

I like free Argo stuff as much as anybody, and some of the gifts over the years have been nice. A few have even been useful. But I buy STs not for free stuff but to support a team I care about. The other stuff is nice but not essential to my customer satisfaction.

We had the following last year:

A gift (Argonauts Glasses)
Merchandise Discount Card
Free extra tickets to the home opener
Fan Day
Entry into draws for autographed merchandise and seat upgrades.
Ticket Swap

It's great that you feel that way, obviously others don't.

Before the season Michael Copeland talked about what Argonauts season ticket holders had been through and how he was going to make sure that they were taken care of and were a priority. That obviously didn't happen.

R.J

11-03-2016, 03:18 PM

Maybe they had a lot of stuff to figure out in a short span of time, and as a result didn't achieve perfection in Year 1. Is there no patience in this world any more?
While Bell and Tanenbaum only took over the team on January 1st, the sale announcement was made in My 2015. They had about a year to plan things out behind the scenes, and Michael Copeland left the League in September 2015 to join the Argonauts in the same month. Yes, in total they had less than a year, but certain things should have been figured out. I'm more than willing to be patient with the business side of the team, because I'm not a fan of blaming them for 30 years of this teams struggles, but on the field for me is another matter, and a bit off topic so I'll leave it at that.

We had the following last year:

A gift (Argonauts Glasses)
Merchandise Discount Card
Free extra tickets to the home opener
Fan Day
Entry into draws for autographed merchandise and seat upgrades.
So, what exactly are you looking from the team ? To give you what they had in years past or something specific ?

paulwoods13

11-03-2016, 03:51 PM

While Bell and Tanenbaum only took over the team on January 1st, the sale announcement was made in My 2015. They had about a year to plan things out behind the scenes, and Michael Copeland left the League in September 2015 to join the Argonauts in the same month. Yes, in total they had less than a year, but certain things should have been figured out.

Many important things WERE figured out. Tailgating. Shipyard. Seat locations for existing STHs, sorted out in an orderly fashion that met everyone's needs. How to look after the grass at BMO to keep MLSE and soccer fans off our backs. In-game customer service. What "certain things" should have been figured out but weren't?

There are times reading this forum when I think the Argo fanbase will be happy only if the team perpetually goes 15-3 and we all get gifts worth hundreds of dollars and have players visit our homes whenever we want them to.

ArgoGabe22

11-03-2016, 04:03 PM

Neely2005

11-03-2016, 05:25 PM

While Bell and Tanenbaum only took over the team on January 1st, the sale announcement was made in My 2015. They had about a year to plan things out behind the scenes, and Michael Copeland left the League in September 2015 to join the Argonauts in the same month. Yes, in total they had less than a year, but certain things should have been figured out. I'm more than willing to be patient with the business side of the team, because I'm not a fan of blaming them for 30 years of this teams struggles, but off the field for me is another matter, and a bit off topic so I'll leave it at that.

So, what exactly are you looking from the team ? To give you what they had in years past or something specific ?

If you're going to make season ticket holders your priority as Michael Copeland stated then you shouldn't be removing benefits and perks.

paulwoods13

11-03-2016, 05:53 PM

I guess the question should be, do you as a fan feel valued/appreciated by the organization? When your own team doesn't even support groups like the Argonotes, then do they even care about Joe Random?

What is the evidence that they don't support the Argonotes? Did they not give them tickets to each game, and a regular section to sit and play? What more should they be expected to do for them?

Shatto

11-03-2016, 05:59 PM

Perception is reality. If a STH perceives that they did not get a good deal for their money, then that is their reality. It is not up to the STH to change the situation, it is up to the Argo management to do that. Having had season tickets since 1965, I confess there have been times in the past that I have felt unappreciated and let down by the organization but gladly, never badly enough to give up on the team.
I understand Ania's frustration this year. Management has made some very poor decisions this year, culminating in the Grey Cup arrangements fiasco. This might be the first year for the ownership and senior management but there that is no excuse for the some of the poor decisions that have been made. Hopefully this will be a learning situation for all those involved and next year will be a better experience for the STH's.
On a positive note, the pregame environment (tailgate/Shipyard) has been superb, so not all decisions were bad ones.
Ania, we will all respect whatever decision you make about being a STH next year but from an older (not necessarily wiser) head, consider giving the team one more chance--they may surprise all of us.

Argo57

11-03-2016, 06:10 PM

Ania's not the only one around here to get Ticat ST's. Although, going full blown Ticat is another matter.

I went full blown Ticat in 2015, couldn't take another season of it so returned to the Argonauts this season.

Ron

11-03-2016, 07:34 PM

For what Ania is looking in for fandom the Cats are a better fit and will be in the future. The Cats just do a ton more things where you can hang out with players if that's a big thing for you.

Argo57

11-03-2016, 07:48 PM

For what Ania is looking in for fandom the Cats are a better fit and will be in the future. The Cats just do a ton more things where you can hang out with players if that's a big thing for you.

Correct Ron, took my son to a meet and greet earlier this season at THF, tables were set up all around the field with 2 players at each table signing autographs and posing for pictures with the fans.
My son is 13 years old, tons of kids his age at this event, Ticats are brilliant at reaching out and connecting with the Hamilton community and fans!

argotom

11-03-2016, 09:27 PM

Where there is smoke you know the saying!
I was just talking yesterday to my season ticket holder neighbour and there is a small movement afoot any way right now to begin the conversation into the possibility of not renewing.
All of us are troubled about the way the new ownership has treated the back bone being the season ticket holders.
There is a possibility of arranging a meeting at a local watering hole and we may post it here to see if any on else is interested?

ArgoZ

11-03-2016, 09:38 PM

Ania's not the only one around here to get Ticat ST's. Although, going full blown Ticat is another matter.

"Everyone knows you never go full blown Ticat! You went full blown Ticat, never go full blown Ticat."

There are times reading this forum when I think the Argo fanbase will be happy only if the team perpetually goes 15-3 and we all get gifts worth hundreds of dollars and have players visit our homes whenever we want them to.

That would be awesome!

I went full blown Ticat in 2015, couldn't take another season of it so returned to the Argonauts this season.

Don't worry. Once Ania really experiences the low life infested fan base of the Ti-Cats, she may question her decision. How long until we hear an "Argos Suck!" Ania? Joining the classless doesn't always work out.

Correct Ron, took my son to a meet and greet earlier this season at THF, tables were set up all around the field with 2 players at each table signing autographs and posing for pictures with the fans.
My son is 13 years old, tons of kids his age at this event, Ticats are brilliant at reaching out and connecting with the Hamilton community and fans!

They are great at this. It's not like it is hard to do though. Heck, the Argos had thousands show up to the last Fan Day in Oshawa. Apologists keep commenting why appease a few hundred fans. It's a special event if done right. At the very least, keeping your ST holders engaged, ensures renewals.

Jon Gonzo

11-03-2016, 09:42 PM

Certainly not shocking that the Argonauts will be losing some core fans this year.

I am old enough to remember the Tommy Hudspeth, Willie Woods era of futility, and this is still a way better team than anything J.I. Albrecht or Bart Andrus oversaw; but given the possibilities and expectations, this could be considered one of the most frustrating seasons of a lifetime.

I could see that.

Point is, this wasn't a time for this team to be going in reverse in any one area. Even little things like keeping the Roster and Website updated with Transactions, etc. In this day and age, there's not excuse for that kind of thing.

Things can turn around quickly in this little league and they had better.

ArgoGabe22

11-03-2016, 09:50 PM

Stevoman

11-03-2016, 10:00 PM

I think Ania has lots of reasons for her opinion to be validated and wish her well as a fan of the Ticats. I have grown to appreciate the CFL as a whole and even go to some Lions games to cheer them on (I'm on the Westcoast) but the Argos are my first love and can't ever see that changing. Because they are the only team that I cheer for whole heartedly this season has been frustrating but then I have to remember, it's only sports. I don't play for them and so win or lose, it really doesn't affect me other than for the 10 mins of frustration I feel after a disappointing loss. For Ania, its more than sports though, its about connection and relationships. When those relationships move on, there is a grieving process, especially if new ones are unable to be formed. For me, I'll keep cheering and wearing Argos gear come gameday. I almost didn't for the Calgary game and my kids asked me why not and when I explained the state of the team, they said they needed our support now more than ever and it was all the more reason to wear the gear and cheer them on. Children can be so wise.

Bleeds Double Blue

11-04-2016, 12:43 AM

Thumbs up Stevoman.

PullTogether73

11-04-2016, 04:41 AM

Agreed, it's my choice of how I spend my hard earned money. I never said the team sent me to those Grey Cups. They were sponsored contests that I had to work hard to prove how big of an Argo fan I was...gather votes and so on. Nothing's been handed to me.

Again, never did I say all these were 'given' to me. I've worked hard, invested a lot of my time and money into this team. For about 10 seasons I took off one weeks vacation just to attend training camp. I built relationships with the players on a personal level that fueled my passion. None of the previous owners "knew" me. Nothing was handed to me. I probably own almost every piece of Argo merchandise form shirts to jackets to hats from the last 20 years.
What I'm saying is that when it all began I was 13 years old. These events and interactions with the players is what made me a fan. I feel like this is what the city needs to build a new fan base. Again, just my opinion.

Thanks for clarifying this.
My impression from your original post was that you were given trips and privileges, many of which the rest of us could not imagine receiving.
Putting in the effort you did to cultivate relationships with the team is impressive.

As others have said, the decision to leave is yours, and if you are unhappy with the situation you should possibly move on.
I don't believe in blindly supporting a team. While an emotional connection exists with a team and its fans, ultimately it is a business and fans should exercise their right to withdraw support.

As I said before, I think it is too early in a new ownership's tenure to move on. Fans wait through lean years of on-field performance. I think the same can be done for off-field performance, at least in the shorter term.

As for joining the Tiger-Cats...well, good luck with that.
I will NEVER do that.

At the Argos first game at THF last year, I was walking alone in the concourse, wearing my Argos jersey and hat. A father and son walk past me, hand in hand. Nice family image. The boy, who could be no more than 10 years old, says to me "Argos suck!" The father says nothing and they continue walking. Some 10 year old boy says this to a respectable looking 50 year old man and the father says nothing? Seriously?

At one of the displaced Argos games from last year at THF, I sat in one of the main sections in the lower level with Argos fans. I heard some young kid in the upper deck constantly yelling out "Argos suck!" as his dad sat there next to him. A few minutes later I hear the same kid doing the same thing, but this time only a few rows behind me. Incredible! This idiot man and his young son thought it would be a good idea to move into the middle of a crowd of Argo fans and do this. I turned around and glared at the kid for at least a full minute.
They wisely moved back to the upper deck before I took the issue further - which I would have.

Finally, I took my daughters to an Argos game at Ivor Wynne a few years ago. We had been to at least two previously. We ended up leaving at half time as my daughters didn't feel safe in that environment. My daughters enjoyed going to Argonauts games with me for several years as a family. That was the last time we have gone together to a game in Hamilton.

Last year was the last time I will attend a game in Hamilton, other than the Grey Cup in which the Argonauts are participating.
I have attended football games in Chicago (Bears, Northwestern University), Indiana (Notre Dame), and Buffalo (Bills). I have never seen opposing fans treated as poorly as I have seen Argos fans treated in Hamilton.

As I said, good luck supporting the Tiger-Cats. I'll be impressed if you can lower yourself to their fans' level.

ArgoGabe22

11-04-2016, 06:51 AM

Maybe it's just me what is exactly so wrong with someone yelling "Argos Suck" during a Ticats home game? Try wearing an opposing jersey at a Bills game. You'll definitely hear a lot of worse.

Neely2005

11-04-2016, 07:55 AM

Maybe it's just me what is exactly so wrong with someone yelling "Argos Suck" during a Ticats home game? Try wearing an opposing jersey at a Bills game. You'll definitely hear a lot of worse.

That doesn't make either right.

We stopped going to games in Hamilton too. It's just not a fun environment and we don't need to expose our kids to that boorish behavior.

PullTogether73

11-04-2016, 08:21 AM

Maybe it's just me what is exactly so wrong with someone yelling "Argos Suck" during a Ticats home game? Try wearing an opposing jersey at a Bills game. You'll definitely hear a lot of worse.

Not my experience.
I attended Jets at Bills and Cardinals at Bills games this year. I never heard any real abuse directed at fans of the visiting team, even the few arrogant Cardinals fans who were preening and strutting during the early part of the game (before their team started losing badly!). I was sitting in the 100 level both times in case that makes a difference.

Btw, I never said there was anything wrong with someone yelling "Argos suck" during a Ti-Cats home game.
At a displaced Argos home game in Hamilton while sitting in the midst of a section full of Argo fans? Yah, that's just outright stupid and shows an effort to be confrontational.

Antwon

11-04-2016, 09:04 AM

That doesn't make either right.

We stopped going to games in Hamilton too. It's just not a fun environment and we don't need to expose our kids to that boorish behavior.

Settle down with bashing TiCat fans! ALL teams in all leagues have some idiot fans, that are usually out numbered by good regular fans.
In the last month a Jays fan threw a beer can on the field of play, and a Bills fan tossed a dildo on the field.
I've been to TiCat games and seen idiot Hamilton fans and sat at Argo games and seen idiot Toronto fans.

1971GreyCup

11-04-2016, 09:21 AM

ArgomANIA clearly there are a number of positive initiatives going on in Hamilton. I wish you all the best. Bob Young and his people are working hard and delivering a great fan experience. I am sure that you aren't the only fan in a hundred years to make the switch.

Funny, my father's family originated in Dunnville with Hamilton being the halfway point to Toronto. Even though it wasn't convenient, we've got four generations of Double Blue fans since WWI. It would be a seismic event to change allegiances. Ownership, management, coaching and players come and go. Times are good, bad and indifferent. Right now, the needle is somewhere between indifferent and bad.

We've got plenty of skin in the game and therefore we've decided to try and be part of the solution. We're just waiting to be asked what the Argos need from us to turn the corner. I suspect that after the Grey Cup, changes or enhancements are on the way. All of us, including current management and ownership agree, that status quo isn't going to cut it.

I've been going to Argos games in Hamilton since Theismann and it seems to me that the chant Argos Suck has got worse. My son definitely expanded his vocabulary starting at the age of nine. Having said that, the vast majority of fans are great. We overlook to outliers.

We've always used visits to CFL cities as learning experiences. My son, now 15, now knows himself much better as he can compare himself to people that live in a steelworker town, French speaking city and all those great western cities. We always try to be gracious hosts at home and appreciative guests on the road. My son has seen plenty of examples of both on the road.

Will

11-04-2016, 10:52 AM

Antwon

11-04-2016, 12:38 PM

I respect your decision to bail on the team. It's your decision, money, and emotions.
As for me, I won't bail. Extremely frustrated, hell yes.
Argo fan since 82, but not a ST holder. Live too far out to make every game, and spend most of the summer up at the lake.
So the ST perks etc are not going to sway me. Fan days etc maybe. Flex pack at BMO in the future.

But the two biggest reasons IMO the Argos risk losing more die hard fans are:
-Competitive team
I know you can't win every game, and I know there are rebuilding years. But to play like turds for so many games kills interest big time.
It's become painful to watch SM coached teams, then hear the excuses after each loss.
It's a QB driven league and they need to find their own version of Reilly, Mitchell, Jennings. (SM takes full blame on our current QB mess)

-Connection to the team
The strong teams in the league are made up of players that have been with the team 1-3 years, 3-5 years, and 5+ years.
They keep that balanced properly and fans can identify and connect with them.
The Argos under JB seem to be made up of 80% 1-3 year players. And they cycle through so fast you don't know who's playing anymore.

I'm willing to be patient with the ownership and Copeland. They made two big mistakes when they took over. The Grey Cup in year one, and extending JB & SM for 3 years.
They were sold up the river on that one. JB & SM slapped ownership in the face with the product they put on the field this year.

So I'm taking a wait and see approach to next year. I'm a die hard but not blind!
The decisions in the coming weeks and months NEED to be the right decisions for the long run.

Neely2005

11-04-2016, 01:25 PM

Settle down with bashing TiCat fans! ALL teams in all leagues have some idiot fans, that are usually out numbered by good regular fans.
In the last month a Jays fan threw a beer can on the field of play, and a Bills fan tossed a dildo on the field.
I've been to TiCat games and seen idiot Hamilton fans and sat at Argo games and seen idiot Toronto fans.

Where did I say that it was all Ticats fans?

We've had issues every single time that we've gone to an Argonauts game in Hamilton and wore Argonauts gear so we've decided that we won't go back.

R.J

11-04-2016, 02:44 PM

As for joining the Tiger-Cats...well, good luck with that.
I will NEVER do that.

At the Argos first game at THF last year, I was walking alone in the concourse, wearing my Argos jersey and hat. A father and son walk past me, hand in hand. Nice family image. The boy, who could be no more than 10 years old, says to me "Argos suck!" The father says nothing and they continue walking. Some 10 year old boy says this to a respectable looking 50 year old man and the father says nothing? Seriously?

At one of the displaced Argos games from last year at THF, I sat in one of the main sections in the lower level with Argos fans. I heard some young kid in the upper deck constantly yelling out "Argos suck!" as his dad sat there next to him. A few minutes later I hear the same kid doing the same thing, but this time only a few rows behind me. Incredible! This idiot man and his young son thought it would be a good idea to move into the middle of a crowd of Argo fans and do this. I turned around and glared at the kid for at least a full minute.
They wisely moved back to the upper deck before I took the issue further - which I would have.

Finally, I took my daughters to an Argos game at Ivor Wynne a few years ago. We had been to at least two previously. We ended up leaving at half time as my daughters didn't feel safe in that environment. My daughters enjoyed going to Argonauts games with me for several years as a family. That was the last time we have gone together to a game in Hamilton.

Last year was the last time I will attend a game in Hamilton, other than the Grey Cup in which the Argonauts are participating.
I have attended football games in Chicago (Bears, Northwestern University), Indiana (Notre Dame), and Buffalo (Bills). I have never seen opposing fans treated as poorly as I have seen Argos fans treated in Hamilton.

As I said, good luck supporting the Tiger-Cats. I'll be impressed if you can lower yourself to their fans' level.
Argos suck is all it took, really ?

Makes sense now why you disagreed with Marshall Ferguson saying that the Ticats should be rated higher - biases can cloud judgement.

R.J

11-04-2016, 03:05 PM

"Everyone knows you never go full blown Ticat! You went full blown Ticat, never go full blown Ticat."
ATM gag from Clerks 2 ?

PullTogether73

11-04-2016, 03:18 PM

Re: the "Argos Suck" chant

I think it is one thing if it is just a general fan chant responding to something on the field, but totally different if someone is getting in your face about it. For the former, what are we supposed to do? We're in an away stadium, I don't expect people to sit there and not be hostile towards the opposing team. I think you do have a right to expect that an aggressive Ticat fan wouldn't get in YOUR face about it though.

Precisely.

Argos suck is all it took, really ?

Makes sense now why you disagreed with Marshall Ferguson saying that the Ticats should be rated higher - biases can cloud judgement.

It appears that you ignored my comment about the source of the jeers.
Two young kids saying it with the full acceptance of their respective fathers.
One said directly to me as I walked by minding my own business.
Speaks volumes to me about the (low) class of the fans.

And no, I give Hamilton commentators as much fair treatment as any others.
Ferguson is oppressively a homer.
That is his right, and HIS bias. But I cannot take his analyses seriously as a result.
Tatti is more balanced in his assessments imo.

Neely2005

11-04-2016, 03:49 PM

ATM gag from Clerks 2 ?

Tropic Thunder, full retard.

R.J

11-04-2016, 03:59 PM

Tropic Thunder, full retard.
Never saw it, as I loathe Ben Stiller.

ArgoZ

11-04-2016, 05:40 PM

Funny, my father's family originated in Dunnville with Hamilton being the halfway point to Toronto. Even though it wasn't convenient, we've got four generations of Double Blue fans since WWI. It would be a seismic event to change allegiances. Ownership, management, coaching and players come and go. Times are good, bad and indifferent. Right now, the needle is somewhere between indifferent and bad.

We've got plenty of skin in the game and therefore we've decided to try and be part of the solution. We're just waiting to be asked what the Argos need from us to turn the corner. I suspect that after the Grey Cup, changes or enhancements are on the way. All of us, including current management and ownership agree, that status quo isn't going to cut it.

I have lived in Dunnville for the last 26 years. It's definitely Ti-Cats country. Growing up in the 90's, I thought I was the only Argonauts fan in town, as I'd proudly wore my Clemons jersey in highschool. I might even know your family in this small town, LOL. I've worked on many construction projects throughout Hamilton, some directly for the city and Tiger-Cats related. I used to have a very good vibe on the Cats, even though I disliked them. The "A" logo and double blue colours will always provide myself a connection to the team, which make it impossible to cease being a fan.

ArgoGabe22

11-04-2016, 07:14 PM

What is the evidence that they don't support the Argonotes? Did they not give them tickets to each game, and a regular section to sit and play? What more should they be expected to do for them?

Organization favours the the drum squad, believes the fans prefer them too . Not only that, but the Argonotes aren't even invited to the Shipyard (formerly Double Blue Bash) for the Grey Cup.

Argo57

11-04-2016, 07:27 PM

That doesn't make either right.

We stopped going to games in Hamilton too. It's just not a fun environment and we don't need to expose our kids to that boorish behavior.

With some (not all) Ticat fans you get the feeling that acting like an asshole is a badge of honour, but every teams got them.

ArgoGabe22

11-04-2016, 07:33 PM

With some (not all) Ticat fans you get the feeling that acting like an asshole is a badge of honour.

But what if the Argos do in fact suck? :D

Argo57

11-04-2016, 07:35 PM

But what if the Argos do in fact suck? :D

Say it ain't so!!

Neely2005

11-04-2016, 08:08 PM

With some (not all) Ticat fans you get the feeling that acting like an asshole is a badge of honour, but every teams got them.

Yes but Hamilton seems to have a lot more than other teams, especially when it comes to their hate for Toronto / the Argonauts. Sometimes I wonder if they hate the Argonauts more than they like the Ticats.

AngeloV

11-04-2016, 08:47 PM

Bleeds Double Blue

11-04-2016, 09:14 PM

As for joining the Tiger-Cats...well, good luck with that.
I will NEVER do that.

I'm with you bro. I couldn't bring myself to cheer for Hamilton in an intersquad game and I'd rather cut out my tongue and join in with that idiotic oski-wee-wee chant.

gilthethrill

11-04-2016, 09:27 PM

I'm with you bro. I couldn't bring myself to cheer for Hamilton in an intersquad game and I'd rather cut out my tongue and join in with that idiotic oski-wee-wee chant.

That latest edition of Pig Skin Pete honestly creeps me out.

1971GreyCup

11-04-2016, 09:49 PM

I have lived in Dunnville for the last 26 years. It's definitely Ti-Cats country. Growing up in the 90's, I thought I was the only Argonauts fan in town, as I'd proudly wore my Clemons jersey in highschool. I might even know your family in this small town, LOL. I've worked on many construction projects throughout Hamilton, some directly for the city and Tiger-Cats related. I used to have a very good vibe on the Cats, even though I disliked them. The "A" logo and double blue colours will always provide myself a connection to the team, which make it impossible to cease being a fan.

I spent many a "Mud Cat" Day sitting on the side walk on Locke Street in Dunnville. I remember many weekends in the 1960s and 1970s raking (tons) leaves with the Argos on the radio in fall. The family lore has it that my grandfather had a heart attack while listening to an Argos game. He called his doctor who paid him a house call. When he doctor arrived, my grandfather briefed him on all the Argos offensive plays he missed before he'd let him get down to business.

argofandave

11-04-2016, 10:33 PM

Yes but Hamilton seems to have a lot more than other teams, especially when it comes to their hate for Toronto / the Argonauts. Sometimes I wonder if they hate the Argonauts more than they like the Ticats.

I was at the last regular season game in Hamilton in 2014 when the Argos needed the Als to beat the Ticats in order to make the playoffs. The Ticats won which gave them first place but instead of the Ticat fans celebrating finishing first, the ones that I was sitting near were celebrating knocking the Argos out of the playoffs.

R.J

11-04-2016, 10:36 PM

ArgoFan1

11-05-2016, 02:02 AM

I know Ania has always been a "people" person first and foremost, and cherished being known by many players over the years. I think the lack of player interaction this season has really diminished her enjoyment. I cannot agree with dis-owning a team though. I know they have failed miserably at a lot of things this year, but it is sports and a business, so you have to think that this cycle will run it's course very soon. With new ownership, I am sure they are now in total shock over the way things turned out in year one. You have to believe that they won't sit still. As mentioned before on here, they probably thought all they had to do was move to BMO and all the problems would go away.
I really enjoyed the Fan Days and the "See you on the field" games, but losing those won't make me stop going to the games. It is only 10 days out of a year that I get to go to an Argo game (in most seasons), so I have to just laugh when they are so inept.
I think the real issue with the team and its inability to attract fans is the just plain boring football they play. I've been to every game and I have seen so many new people going to games, but rarely see them come back. They've got to throw out that two page play book and start playing some more interesting football.
I tailgate when I go to Hamilton games, which is quite often, but have not tailgated in Toronto, mainly because I park in Liberty Village for $5. I have two seats and the various people I take turns taking to games are all not interested in the tailgating, even though I would like to pop in. The little gifts we used to get with our season tickets were always welcome, but not a deal breaker for me.
On the other subject, I usually go to at least half of the Ticat home games (I just love the CFL) and I usually wear some Argo colours, but have never once felt threatened by any Ticat fans. I've heard many "Argos Suck" chants but I don't care.
Ania..... going to the East Semi-Final in Hamilton??? I have a friend who is a season ticket holder there and can get tickets at a good discount. He just sent me an email, but I am unable to go that day.

argolio

11-05-2016, 01:52 PM

For me, all that matters is the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

For those who have concerns, I can only suggest that you (politely) address them directly to the team. Posting stuff here is no guarantee they'll hear you.

PullTogether73

11-05-2016, 03:51 PM

For me, all that matters is the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

Agreed.
As someone already mentioned, if the Argos record this year was 12-5 instead of 5-12, I'm fairly confident that STH perks would not be one of the main topics of discussion here.

ArgoZ

11-05-2016, 04:15 PM

Agreed.
As someone already mentioned, if the Argos record this year was 12-5 instead of 5-12, I'm fairly confident that STH perks would not be one of the main topics of discussion here.

Agree, however the idea was to grow the fanbase and it seems we are heading in the other direction, hopefully only slightly. Now that the team is in full disaster mode, they need to fight to keep the ST holders they have. I would invite every member (RSVP of course), to a town hall like meeting, to introduce some new players, possible new coach and etc, during the off-season.

It's not just ST perks. Everyone thought tailgating and moving to BMO would solve everything. I noticed the lack of fan engagement and lack of connections when this season started and warned of some alienation. I was told not to worry there's 15k ST and awesome $4 beers. A strength of the CFL was much about the accessibility of players. Then again, when your team is dysfunctional and loses starters every few weeks, its not like you can plan meet and greets!

matchuk

11-05-2016, 11:52 PM

Ouch, jumping ship to Hamilton, eeeew...I could not do it, but understand the frustration leading to that decision.

This season has been a complete sh*t show, both on and off the field. For me, being a 14 year season ticket holder, I am more pissed off at the on field product before anything else. Attending every single game at BMO this season, I can count 1, maybe 2 that were entertaining to watch. The others, complete garbage. That I believe is the main reason for the fluttering fan base. I am tempted to not buy season tickets again because I cant justify spending $50+ a ticket + food/beer and parking for a night out, that I can't even enjoy. I knew going into BMO for the first season, there were going to be a lot of issues with a number of things (schedule, fan oriented events, etc) so I wasn`t expecting much. In fact, I was surprised with how well the Shipyard and Tailgate have gone. Did anyone really think moving to BMO this season would suddenly create the perfect franchise? I believe things will get better. The schedule will improve, now that they know not as much time/effort is needed to return the field to soccer specs. The team will bring back fan events. It is the on field product that loses me the most. Some people consider the CFL "Mickey Mouse" and it is hard not to agree with pathetic play like the Argos have showed.

On a side note, what do other season ticket holder fan bases do? Any sport? Does anyone know? I doubt the Leafs do anything special for fans, other than the nice printed tickets (like we have). Raptors? Jays? I doubt they are letting fans skate with the Leafs or play horse with Derozan or catch with Bautista.

R.J

11-06-2016, 12:28 AM

AngeloV

11-06-2016, 12:30 AM

Don't know about those teams, but the Toronto Rock do quite a bit.

But hasn't there attendance also taken a huge dip over the years despite this?

R.J

11-06-2016, 12:34 AM

But hasn't there attendance also taken a huge dip over the years despite this?
Yes, it has. Sucks too because the Rock used to be the leader in attendance up until the mid 2000's.

PullTogether73

11-06-2016, 06:19 AM

Yes, it has. Sucks too because the Rock used to be the leader in attendance up until the mid 2000's.

Guilty.

I attended Toronto Rock games for years. Attended 2 championships won at the A.C.C. by the Rock. Absolutely awesome experiences - similar to attending the 100th Grey Cup and watching the Argonauts win it!
Then, last year I attended my first junior hockey game. Mississauga Steelheads. I enjoyed it too much to not go again. If you have never gone to a junior hockey game, I strongly recommend it. (I attended a few Oshawa Generals games and a London Knights game as well last season. Great stuff!) And I pay only $20 to attend, with free parking.
Anyway, the Rock became a casualty of my new interest in junior hockey. My 4 Rock jerseys have been collecting dust ever since.:o

Neely2005

11-06-2016, 07:13 AM

On a side note, what do other season ticket holder fan bases do? Any sport? Does anyone know? I doubt the Leafs do anything special for fans, other than the nice printed tickets (like we have). Raptors? Jays? I doubt they are letting fans skate with the Leafs or play horse with Derozan or catch with Bautista.

From the other Thread:

A lot of people have been asking what other teams give their STHs as benefits (that we don't get), specifically, Hamilton. I am going to provide links to other teams STH benefits so that you can read for yourselves.

Hamilton - http://ticats.ca/tickets/#season-seat-holder-benefits

Montreal - http://en.montrealalouettes.com/season-ticket-memberships/

Ottawa - http://www.ottawaredblacks.com/2016-season-ticket-benefits/

Winnipeg - http://www.bluebombers.com/season-ticket-member-benefits/

Edmonton - http://www.esks.com/the-perks/

Calgary - http://www.stampeders.com/seasontickets/

BC - http://www.bclions.com/benefits-2/

I couldn't find information for Saskatchewan but I suspect that is due to the fact that they have a wait list for their season tickets not because there aren't any benefits.

Now to compare those benefits to Toronto - http://www.argonauts.ca/2016-season-tickets/ where the "benefits" were a savings of up to 33% (for most this amounted to a free playoff ticket which didn't happen), first right to purchase 104th grey cup tickets and priority access to grey cup events.

With respect to Hamilton, I am not a season ticket holder but I do recall seeing/hearing about several STH events during the season that involved player meet & greets, etc.

Someone asked the benefits that are offered to other MLSE teams, so here are the links:

Toronto FC - http://seasonseats.torontofc.ca/new

Raptors - http://www.nba.com/raptors/1617-seasonseats/new/#section-benefits

Leafs - couldn't find a link but guessing that is because there is a wait list

Marlies - http://www.marlies.ca/tickets/SeasonSeatsBenefits.asp

Raptors 905 - http://raptors905.dleague.nba.com/tickets-seasonseats/

All offer very similar benefits to what other CFL teams offer their STHs. Right or wrong I do feel jilted by the fact that all other CFL teams (with the exception of maybe Saskatchewan since I couldn't find their information) offer their STHs benefits while the Argos offer very little. If no other teams offered benefits then why should the Argos....and on a similar argument, if all other teams offer benefits, why can't the Argos?

Copeland also promised us that he was going to take care of his STHs THIS season. A promise that I don't see how anyone can argue that he fulfilled.

AngeloV

11-06-2016, 10:11 AM

Guilty.

I attended Toronto Rock games for years. Attended 2 championships won at the A.C.C. by the Rock. Absolutely awesome experiences - similar to attending the 100th Grey Cup and watching the Argonauts win it!
Then, last year I attended my first junior hockey game. Mississauga Steelheads. I enjoyed it too much to not go again. If you have never gone to a junior hockey game, I strongly recommend it. (I attended a few Oshawa Generals games and a London Knights game as well last season. Great stuff!) And I pay only $20 to attend, with free parking.
Anyway, the Rock became a casualty of my new interest in junior hockey. My 4 Rock jerseys have been collecting dust ever since.:o

I went to a Rock game in the mid 90's at the Gardens. It just wasn't my thing as far as sports go, but I do admit the atmosphere was pretty good. Used to be a regular at Brampton Battalion games on Sunday afternoons...great tams with Cody Hodgson and Matt Duschesne. Great value at under $15. Sadly they didn't draw enough and moved to North Bay.

Argo57

11-06-2016, 11:21 AM

TheHammer

11-06-2016, 10:40 PM

Go to Regina or Winnipeg for the LDC or Banjo Bowl, it's just as bad.

Exactly. Every team has its rivalries and every fan base gets riled up for it. It happens. When you go to a Ticat-Argo game at THF, expect chants, booing Argos players and some good-natured taunts coming your way if you're wearing double blue. I remember the September 11th game at BMO where the Argos beat the Cats, Argo fans were chanting at us as we were leaving, and this was with my 7-year old son. It kinda ticked me off a bit, but it would never stop me from attending another game at BMO.

As for the 'Argos Suck' chant, it's not something I encourage my child to say just because I hate the word (don't know why). That being said, it's not profane. A little on the rude side, but anyone who hangs around kids knows how often they say the word 'sucks'. So a child yelling it at a football game, I honestly don't find it to be THAT offensive. If they were yelling 'Nobody blows like the Argos'... now THAT I would have a problem with. I remember watching an Argo game on TV a couple years ago and the camera showed youngster yelling at the ref from his seat (and what appeared to be a profanity if you can read lips). The camera was on the kid for like 2 minutes and the TV guys were laughing at him. I never thought 'Oh, man all Argo fans are horrible parents because of that one kids action'.

That latest edition of Pig Skin Pete honestly creeps me out.

Why? Dan's a good guy. Very personable and down to earth if you ever talk to him. Kinda miss the older guy with the fur coat and bowler hat, but whatever.

My point is that you have received a good deal more than virtually all long(er) term Argonauts fans.

We haven't received two free trips to the Grey Cup.

We weren't invited to drink from the Grey Cup by Argonauts players.

We didn't have Argonauts players attend any personal functions.

Yet, you seem to expect new owners/managers to provide you with some type of insider's privileges that you had under previous owners.

Maybe they don't know you yet.

Maybe they have been too busy with other things associated with taking over a team, moving that team to a new venue, getting licenses/approvals for a new game day function (tailgating), planning the league's championship game and festival.

Hence my comment about the new owners try to retrofit a listing ship.

I believe if you were to stick around and influence the changes you seek, along with the rest of us dedicated Argonauts fans, you would possibly be satisfied.

Was it a bad year for the Argonauts organization?

Clearly yes. Both on the field and off.

But it is the first year of a new "admiralcy".

I believe they deserve more than one year to get everything right for us.

Did Bob Young get everything right in his first year as owner of the Tiger-Cats?

This ^^

It took Bob 5-10 years to figure out how to run a franchise. He tried to think too 'out of the box' when he got rid of the traditional sports chain-of-command and basically made everyone the same level for all intents and purposes (which of course, leaves no one accountable). He tried to get rid of the 'Argos Suck' chant (not understanding his fan base and team culture right away). Of course, there was the Stadium debacle, and while Bob was not the only guilty party in all that, he made mistakes there, too. He eventually got everything figured out. We have a decent (albeit no-frills) new stadium, sellouts, and (in most years) a competitive football team) and the Cats are now considered one of the more stable franchises in the league. I go to games now, look around, see the youth in Ticat apparel, see the sellouts, and I couldn't be happier and more proud of how far my favourite organization has come.

So just wait it out, Argomania. If Bob Young can figure it out, then your ownership (who already partly owns multiple franchises) will as well. I've been to BMO, and it is beautiful (better than THF in some areas), you have a passionate fanbase (very visible and loud at the game I was at), and a team that I believe was better than its record this year. I think a lot of people thought it would happen overnight like in Montreal (the U2 concert at the Dome changed things there). It won't. It took years for this freefall to happen and it will take years for it to get built back up again (hopefully not as many years, though).

They WILL figure this out. Don't give up on them. As for the Ticats, we'd love to have you, but we're good. The Argos, however...they need you.