Rogers looking into new Blue Jays Stadium ?

[R.J]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/380640-chicago-reporter-calls-for-jays-to-relocate

Discussions of a new stadium are in the (very, very early) beginning
First I've heard of this, don't even know how credible "Kyle W. Brown" is.

[Mulder]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/380640-chicago-reporter-calls-for-jays-to-relocate

First I've heard of this, don't even know how credible "Kyle W. Brown" is.

article it's self is 2 years old also, I heard this rumour about new stadium 2 years ago as well.

[Deerkeeper]

That story does look kind of familiar. I think I read it then immediately brain dumped it some time back. But I have no doubt that somewhere down deep in the brain trust of Rogers, they know full well that if the Jays are to have any long term staying power in Toronto they need to build a new ball park. All I can say to that idea is "not with my tax money their not". But any hint of that is still a very long ways away.

[T-Bone]

That story does look kind of familiar. I think I read it then immediately brain dumped it some time back. But I have no doubt that somewhere down deep in the brain trust of Rogers, they know full well that if the Jays are to have any long term staying power in Toronto they need to build a new ball park. All I can say to that idea is "not with my tax money their not". But any hint of that is still a very long ways away.
You are aware that both Exhibition Stadium and Skydome were built with tax payer money, right?

[R.J]

All I can say to that idea is "not with my tax money their not". But any hint of that is still a very long ways away.
Unfortunately I said that when TSC's home was being built soccer specific and it was still built, I don't even care anymore that the Argos aren't playing there, but you can't even play a high school football game there.
Less than 10 hours a month are used by the community at BMO, C'Mon man.

I highly doubt that any federal dollars would go towards a new Blue Jays stadium, but with Mcguinty in power, the public purse will open (even though we're already are in the red), especially with Rogers now owning a piece of MLSE, we all know how far the governments head is up MLSE's butt.

The Blue Jays would see a new facility and only have to put in 25 % (ala MLSE and BMO = 62.9 million for facility, 72 million including land, MLSE = 18 million, 10 million of which was naming rights 8 million for capital costs and only pays the city an average of 300 K per year in "rent")

[LLB997]

Unfortunately I said that when TSC's home was being built soccer specific and it was still built, I don't even care anymore that the Argos aren't playing there, but you can't even play a high school football game there.
Less than 10 hours a month are used by the community at BMO, C'Mon man.

I highly doubt that any federal dollars would go towards a new Blue Jays stadium, but with Mcguinty in power, the public purse will open (even though we're already are in the red), especially with Rogers now owning a piece of MLSE, we all know how far the governments head is up MLSE's butt.

The Blue Jays would see a new facility and only have to put in 25 % (ala MLSE and BMO = 62.9 million for facility, 72 million including land, MLSE = 18 million, 10 million of which was naming rights 8 million for capital costs and only pays the city an average of 300 K per year in "rent")



yeah, BMO is a dump. Looks like something you can fold up and carry home after the game. Never hire Hasbro to build a stadium for you.

[T-Bone]

yeah, BMO is a dump. Looks like something you can fold up and carry home after the game. Never hire Hasbro to build a stadium for you.
At least that dump has turned a profit for the City of Toronto every year since it opened.

[Will]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/380640-chicago-reporter-calls-for-jays-to-relocate

First I've heard of this, don't even know how credible "Kyle W. Brown" is.

I am not surprised that there are very early, early discussions about this. Many of the other cookie cutters like Veterans Stadium, Riverfront and Three Rivers lasted approximately 30 years. Skydome is currently 23 years old. There won't be a new baseball stadium in Toronto at 30 years though, but as I said not surprised the idea has come up. The guy from Chicago is a tool although I'm sure his sentiment is popular among some on the site. If he wrote that about the Argos we'd all be up in arms.

[R.J]

At least that dump has turned a profit for the City of Toronto every year since it opened.
300K per year, as opposed to the UofT plan where the Argos would have paid 2.1 million per season in rent and UofT also had the naming rights.
Yeah I'm sure the City of Toronto couldn't use that money right now, with exception to it being a temp stadium, Empire field is better facility and cheaper too (14.1 million to build)
Not to mention that the City put in 9.8 Million into capital costs (not including the land) at this rate it would take 30+ years for the City of Toronto to see 9.8 million dollars back.

[T-Bone]

300K per year, as opposed to the UofT plan where the Argos would have paid 2.1 million per season in rent and UofT also had the naming rights.
Yeah I'm sure the City of Toronto couldn't use that money right now,
Can you please provide a link to this information.


with exception to it being a temp stadium, Empire field is better facility and cheaper too (14.1 million to build)
If you prefer porta potties to washrooms and a chip truck out front to concession stands then I guess Empire Field was a better facility.


Not to mention that the City put in 9.8 Million into capital costs (not including the land) at this rate it would take 30+ years for the City of Toronto to see 9.8 million dollars back.
Has the city recouped it's cost for the construction of Skydome yet?

[R.J]

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/4224-toronto-to-get-new-downtown-stadium/

It's a wonderful day for Argos, owner says
Team set to return to U of T stadium

Soccer association faces `a big onus'


RICK MATSUMOTO
SPORTS REPORTER

The Argonauts are sailing home to Varsity Stadium.

And their latest owners are hoping to sail out of the sea of red ink that has scuttled previous franchise holders.

"We've got an opportunity now to make the Argos a viable product, something that has never been an opportunity for any other owner over the last 25 to 30 years," David Cynamon said yesterday. He and Howard Sokolowski purchased the team last October.

The Argos will be the major tenants of a new $80 million Varsity Stadium, a 25,000-seat facility with two levels of retail outlets fronting on Bloor St. W. which will rise on the site of the old stadium razed in 2002.

The original plan, which involved Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, called for the restoration of adjoining Varsity Arena and the building of a second ice surface that would have become the practice facility for the Maple Leafs. However, MLSE pulled out of the project in mid-March, claiming it was not financially viable.

The Canadian Soccer Association will also be a major user of the facility. In fact, the CSA's bid for the 2007 under-20 men's world championship was a major factor in the federal and provincial governments pledging a total of $35 million toward the cost. How the two levels of government will divide the pledge is still to be worked out.

"There's a big onus on Kevan Pipe (CSA chief operating officer)," said federal Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development Joe Volpe. "All the money will be there if he's successful in bringing the tournament here."

Added Volpe, "I can't see the CSA not having a successful bid. If we weren't confident of that we wouldn't be here."

Cynamon was also confident the project would go ahead.

"We'll be standing right here for the opening game of 2006," he said as he stood on the patchy sod of the current playing field.

The Argos will pay an annual rental fee of $2.1 million which will go toward servicing the $30 million mortgage the University of Toronto will take on as its share of the building costs. The university also plans to provide $15 million through private donations.

The Argos expect to cover their costs as managers of the facility. They will receive all revenue coming into the stadium including naming rights, gate receipts from all events, concessions, and sale or rental of approximately 32 private suites. They controlled none of those rights at SkyDome.

"It's a wonderful day for the Argonauts," Sokolowski said. "They played here for 50 years. The fact that we're coming back and joining up with the U of T and the Canadian Soccer Association is a wonderful accomplishment.

"The fact also that we can be part of building a small, intimate facility with very fan-friendly sightlines is wonderful. When David and I bought the Argos that was our goal. We felt that for the long-term care of the team we needed a new venue.

"I think SkyDome is a good venue, but Varsity will become a great one."

Moving to a smaller, intimate stadium proved to be a boon for the Montreal Alouettes, who left cavernous Olympic Stadium for 20,000-seat Molson Stadium on the McGill University campus, where the Als have enjoyed 46 consecutive sellouts.

However, since it is generally accepted that a CFL team needs an average of 22,000 fans per game to break even, the Als will add 5,000 seats before next season.

Argo president and CEO Keith Pelley said the club is expecting higher attendance at the SkyDome this season than the roughly 15,000 it averaged last season. He suggested attendance could even double.

Pelley said it's better to play before a full house rather than have many unsold seats.

"It's supply and demand," he said. "The best thing is to be sold out. To have a sellout you need 75 per cent of capacity in season tickets. That means for a 25,000-seat stadium you need to sell 18,000 season tickets. I think that's realistic. It would be hard to sell 35,000 season tickets (at 50,000-seat Skydome)."

While the Argos and CSA were elated over the success in gaining the critical government support, no one was happier than U of T vice-president of development Jon Dellandrea, who has been the pointman in the process.

"This is a fabulous day for the university," said the former Varsity Blues linebacker. "This is going to significantly enhance the inter-collegiate and recreational programs. The previous field was only useable for about three hours a day. This surface will allow use from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m. So it's going to expand the use by our students and the programs."

Dellandrea also feels the new stadium will help revive the fortunes of the school's CIS football team, the Varsity Blues, who have fallen on hard times both on and off the field over the past several years.

Argo head coach Mike Clemons called yesterday's announcement "the fulfillment of what I had hoped for and dreamed of for the last several years.

"This puts us in a position where we can be competitive every year," he said."
However I misread/was wrong about the naming rights part so I apologize for writing that UofT would get it. Under the agreement The University was to retain ownership of land and buildings and approve naming, leases and advertising for the facility. (http://www.governingcouncil.utoronto.ca/AssetFactory.aspx?did=2911)

[ArgoRavi]

That U of T stadium for the Argos would have been a sight to behold.

[R.J]

That U of T stadium for the Argos would have been a sight to behold.
Really Ravi you would have preferred this UofT Stadium, which couldn't expand
http://i1.tinypic.com/noioms.jpg

Over the York stadium, which could have expanded to at least 45,000 seats ?
http://www.yorku.ca/web/futurestudents/newsletter/images/images_2004nov/stadium_1.gif http://www.yorku.ca/alumni/alumnimatters/oct-04/stadium2.jpg

[T-Bone]

Thanks for the link (http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/4224-toronto-to-get-new-downtown-stadium/).

I found this part interesting:


In fact, the CSA's bid for the 2007 under-20 men's world championship was a major factor in the federal and provincial governments pledging a total of $35 million toward the cost.


especially with Rogers now owning a piece of MLSE, we all know how far the governments head is up MLSE's butt.

The Blue Jays would see a new facility and only have to put in 25 % (ala MLSE and BMO = 62.9 million for facility, 72 million including land, MLSE = 18 million, 10 million of which was naming rights 8 million for capital costs and only pays the city an average of 300 K per year in "rent")
How much were the Argos contributing to the initial cost of building the facility? The only number that appears in the article is the rent that the Argos would be paying if the facility was built.


300K per year, as opposed to the UofT plan where the Argos would have paid 2.1 million per season in rent
Yeah I'm sure the City of Toronto couldn't use that money right now
Not to mention that the City put in 9.8 Million into capital costs (not including the land) at this rate it would take 30+ years for the City of Toronto to see 9.8 million dollars back.
Had the facility opened in 2006 as intended only $12.6 million dollars would have been paid so far towards the $30 million dollar mortgage loan that UofT would have taken out to build the facility. That means it would still be over 8 more years until the initial $30 million would have been paid off not including intrest. How would the City of Toronto be getting money if it's going towards paying off the mortgage loan?


The Argos will pay an annual rental fee of $2.1 million which will go toward servicing the $30 million mortgage the University of Toronto will take on as its share of the building costs.


I did state that it was a temp stadium, but no worries maybe your eyes only pick and choose what you see.

with exception to it being a temp stadium, Empire field is better facility and cheaper too (14.1 million to build)
I did see that but you also stated that it was a better facility and that it was cheaper too. I sure hope a temporary stadium would be cheaper then a permanent structure but I don't see how porta poties and a chip truck are better the washrooms and concession stands etc.


However I misread/was wrong about the naming rights part so I apologize for writing that UofT would get it.
No need to apologize.

[R.J]

How much were the Argos contributing to the initial cost of building the facility? The only number that appears in the article is the rent that the Argos would be paying if the facility was built.IIRC the University was supposed to also bring in 15 million through private donations, 5 million of which was supposed to be paid by C+S, however I'd like to point out that I am basing this on memory, as I can't recall which paper I had read if from.

Had the facility opened in 2006 as intended only $12.6 million dollars would have been paid so far towards the $30 million dollar mortgage loan that UofT would have taken out to build the facility. That means it would still be over 8 more years until the initial $30 million would have been paid off not including interest. How would the City of Toronto be getting money if it's going towards paying off the mortgage loan?The Varsity deal had $0 coming from the city of Toronto, I meant it as if the Argos moved to BMO instead of TFC, the rent IMO would be higher for the Argos than MLSE.

I did see that but you also stated that it was a better facility and that it was cheaper too. I sure hope a temporary stadium would be cheaper then a permanent structure but I don't see how porta poties and a chip truck are better the washrooms and concession stands etc.
In terms of seat set up, being football specific, having partial coverage, the fact that it is also a bleacher stadium, but looks less so in comparison to BMO. It's just my opinion though, I've seen permanent stadiums built by Nussli and they put BMO to shame, some are built rather cheap in terms of money.

[ArgoRavi]

Really Ravi you would have preferred this UofT Stadium, which couldn't expand
http://i1.tinypic.com/noioms.jpg

Over the York stadium, which could have expanded to at least 45,000 seats ?
http://www.yorku.ca/web/futurestudents/newsletter/images/images_2004nov/stadium_1.gif http://www.yorku.ca/alumni/alumnimatters/oct-04/stadium2.jpg

Why would the U of T stadium have needed to be expanded though? The Argos would have had a very similar situation to what we see in Montreal and I think that it would have been a roaring success. Could a renovation of Lamport Stadium do something similar though?

[paulwoods13]

In terms of seat set up, being football specific, having partial coverage, the fact that it is also a bleacher stadium, but looks less so in comparison to BMO. It's just my opinion though, I've seen permanent stadiums built by Nussli and they put BMO to shame, some are built rather cheap in terms of money.

I went to a game at Empire last fall. It was in a gorgeous setting with the mountains in the background, but the stadium itself was no great shakes. Aside from having all the washrooms in portables, I would estimate that fully half the seats were behind the goal lines. The seats were cheap plastic pre-fab, much less comfy than those at RC. The outer shell of the stadium was fabric, which worked OK in that mild climate but would suck in cold weather. It was an excellent temporary solution but could not have been close to a permanent solution.

[paulwoods13]

7,000 "seats" (bench style seating) were in the end-zone.

I sat on a defined chair in the corner of the end zone. There were also benches across the back of the EZ, but there were plenty of chairs behind the goal lines.

[T-Bone]

The Varsity deal had $0 coming from the city of Toronto
You calculated in the land cost to BMO Field but not in this scenario?


I meant it as if the Argos moved to BMO instead of TFC, the rent IMO would be higher for the Argos than MLSE.
If I were the City of Toronto I might charge the Argos more. They didn't contribute any funding towards the building and they aren't managing the building for the city. All the upgrades to BMO Field and Lamport Stadium have come out of MLSE's pockets. I highly doubt it would be $2.1 million dollars though. That figure made sense in the Varsity scenario as the Argos would have been profiting off all the events held at the stadium.


The Argos expect to cover their costs as managers of the facility. They will receive all revenue coming into the stadium including naming rights, gate receipts from all events, concessions, and sale or rental of approximately 32 private suites.


I went to a game at Empire last fall. It was in a gorgeous setting with the mountains in the background, but the stadium itself was no great shakes. Aside from having all the washrooms in portables, I would estimate that fully half the seats were behind the goal lines. The seats were cheap plastic pre-fab, much less comfy than those at RC. The outer shell of the stadium was fabric, which worked OK in that mild climate but would suck in cold weather. It was an excellent temporary solution but could not have been close to a permanent solution.
Friends of mine that went for the first MLS TFC vs. Whitecaps game said that the place looked a lot better on TV then in person. Apparently in person you could really see it was just a temporary stadium and that it wouldn't be viable as a long term solution.


As for Lamport, it would all depend upon the renovation, IMO Lamport would need to add second decks to the East-West stands, washrooms and concessions, boxes/suites, premium seats, so long as the either one or both end-zones are open you could pull off Ottawa's stadium and get over 40,000 seats for Grey Cups and events, again this would all depend upon the renovation done.
IMO you would need to demo Lamport Stadium and start from scratch to make it a suitable stadium for the Argos. I believe Mulder mentioned it in a previous similar discussion that the land that Lamport sits on may actually be to small to building a proper CFL compatible stadium as well.

[Will]

Skydome had the disadvantage of being built just three years before Oriole Park at Camden Yards opened. That stadium in Baltimore set the precedent by which many of the stadiums that have been built since have followed.

[argolio]

Skydome had the disadvantage of being built just three years before Oriole Park at Camden Yards opened. That stadium in Baltimore set the precedent by which many of the stadiums that have been built since have followed.I don't see how that would have made any difference. I doubt the Jays on their own would have been able to build a baseball-specific stadium with the same or similar funding arrangement as the Skydome, and thereby excluding the Argos. Not to mention the Jays would also have had to overcome the sustained momentum to build a domed stadium that came out of the '82 Grey Cup.

It will be interesting to see if Rogers and the Jays look for any public funding when they decide to push for a new stadium.