If it was up to you would you fire Jim Barker?

[Neely2005]

If it was up to you would you fire Jim Barker?

[Will]

Yes

[Mightygoose]

I wonder if his strings we're being pulled by upper management/ownership (re: Willy trade), then not at this time, have this forthcoming 'football guru' make the call.

If Barker initiated the Willy trade and other roster moves, the yes...he should get gassed.

[PullTogether73]

I was initially torn between options 1 and 3, but eventually voted 1.

The team has declined during his tenure as GM only and hit a low last year.
Time for a fresh face.

[R.J]

Yes, for the many reason I've mentioned previously.

[Scooter McCray]

Although I appreciate the 2012 Championship and the first place finish in 2013, the team has declined for the last 3 seasons and seems easier and easier to play against. I would like to see a fresh outlook and that includes replacing Michael Copeland as well. I was underwhelmed with what (copeland) he did last year and in particular how the existing season ticket base was taken for granted. With a fresh faces running what is on the field and an uptick in play, I want an uptick in the marketing of this team and want someone with better ideas than just tailgating.

[Jayahre]

Although I appreciate the 2012 Championship and the first place finish in 2013, the team has declined for the last 3 seasons and seems easier and easier to play against. I would like to see a fresh outlook and that includes replacing Michael Copeland as well. I was underwhelmed with what (copeland) he did last year and in particular how the existing season ticket base was taken for granted. With a fresh faces running what is on the field and an uptick in play, I want an uptick in the marketing of this team and want someone with better ideas than just tailgating.

How much more marketing can you do?? it wasn't just tail gating, there was a lot of advertising on the TTC, the billboards, the TV ads with the team running through the Princes Gates, the concerts at the Shipyard, the $4 beer, the $25 ticket.
Considering the amount of marketing the Argos did plus the CFL with their ads on the TTC etc plus the huge press coverage about the move to BMO and conversion to a CFL field, the hoopla when season tickets went on sale.

More marketing? a complete waste of time, that used to be the excuse when Braley owned the team "more marketing" and the other excuse was that the RC was a bad place to watch a football game and with a new smaller stadium most of the problems would be solved. It's obviously deeper than marketing and a new stadium.
The team has to attract the young millenials type crowd that attends TFC games but that's going to be impossible, that ship has sailed.
It's about football at the grass roots level, it's disappearing in the GTA, more and more high schools have scrapped their football programs not only because of the expense but because they don't have enough kids interested.
The baby boomer crowd is getting older, get used to the small crowds, just hope the owners keep paying the bills and understand that crowds of 12k to 17k are the norm for Toronto.

[ArgoGabe22]

Although I appreciate the 2012 Championship and the first place finish in 2013, the team has declined for the last 3 seasons and seems easier and easier to play against. I would like to see a fresh outlook and that includes replacing Michael Copeland as well. I was underwhelmed with what (copeland) he did last year and in particular how the existing season ticket base was taken for granted. With a fresh faces running what is on the field and an uptick in play, I want an uptick in the marketing of this team and want someone with better ideas than just tailgating.

The Argos & the CFL in general need more positive coverage around the GTA. It doesn't hurt when members of the media are hating on the league whenever they get the opportunity.

Argos need to do a on foot marketing blitz in the downtown core. Talk to people, get an opinion, introduce them to Canadian football, hand out ticket discount vouchers, buy one get one, give out stickers or buttons (some sort of logo that people can proudly wear or put somewhere, create some sort of recognition).

Also get into neighborhoods and do the same. Kensington market would love the vintage/retro boat logo look. Plaster posters where permitted and get people to notice.

[Scooter McCray]

How much more marketing can you do?? it wasn't just tail gating, there was a lot of advertising on the TTC, the billboards, the TV ads with the team running through the Princes Gates, the concerts at the Shipyard, the $4 beer, the $25 ticket.
Considering the amount of marketing the Argos did plus the CFL with their ads on the TTC etc plus the huge press coverage about the move to BMO and conversion to a CFL field, the hoopla when season tickets went on sale.

More marketing? a complete waste of time, that used to be the excuse when Braley owned the team "more marketing" and the other excuse was that the RC was a bad place to watch a football game and with a new smaller stadium most of the problems would be solved. It's obviously deeper than marketing and a new stadium.
The team has to attract the young millenials type crowd that attends TFC games but that's going to be impossible, that ship has sailed.
It's about football at the grass roots level, it's disappearing in the GTA, more and more high schools have scrapped their football programs not only because of the expense but because they don't have enough kids interested.
The baby boomer crowd is getting older, get used to the small crowds, just hope the owners keep paying the bills and understand that crowds of 12k to 17k are the norm for Toronto. I'm not ready to accept that position yet. Not when I see such success with the younger generation in Ottawa, Hamilton and high interest level across Canada and the grassroots interest and young people playing in the province of Quebec. There are major hurdles in Toronto, but I don't think they are insurmountable. Ownership needs to be committed and focused at changing the attitudes and rekindling interest. The team when playing well and not playing well for that matter still draws on TV and the audience is not entirely from the rest of Canada. With a better team there is certainly no reason a 27,000 seat stadium cannot be filled in this market. Good quality CFL football as we saw in the Grey Cup game and the 100th champion Argonauts is as entertaining a sports product as is available in Toronto. It is, end of story. It is about making it cool to like the CFL again in this market. Just because it is not the NFL does not mean it isn't good or fun to go watch and develop a rooting interest in the Argos again. One year into a new ownership group after a terrible season on the field is no reason to believe it is over. Ownership can look to other markets and the success of the 100th Grey Cup not long ago and say to themselves this can work. I want to see what they did in 1991 to generate fan interest. Not just concerts in the parking lot. Concerts on the field after the game with great acts, simulcast on Muchmusic after Friday night football. Turn it into Friday night football on TSN and Friday night concerts on Much. Both are Bell properties. Get creative with this and go big. As we saw with the Grey Cup the stage does not have to be on the precious grass field. I hope Adriano Belli pays a visit to Giovinco to show him how Italians in Toronto play sports for real.

[PullTogether73]

I thought this thread was about whether or not to fire Jim Barker.

Marketing?
Promotions?
Aren't there enough threads for that already?

[AngeloV]

No.

[ArgoRavi]

I voted a resounding no here.

[OV Argo]

Yes !

[Jon Gonzo]

Time for some new eyes and ears. This guy held it together in some very trying times, but he just couldn't continue to outrun the problems in the long haul. Cardinal sin for a GM = after a losing season, the Team is in a position with no great promise. Trending downwards. Say thanks, and move along.

[gilthethrill]

I have always been a huge fan of Barker. However after that Drew Willy trade, I am not so sure. Dave Mudge for Brad Elberg is no longer the worst trade in Argo history (since I started following the team that is).

[paulwoods13]

I want to see what they did in 1991 to generate fan interest.

Signed a guy for $18 million. Opened a merch store on Front Street. Sent a beloved character actor/comedian on the road every two weeks to promote the team and the league. None of those options are available now. And let's not exaggerate the success of 1991. The team drew a lot better than it did in 2016 but did not come close to selling out SkyDome, except for the Eastern Final.

[AngeloV]

Dave Mudge for Brad Elberg is no longer the worst trade in Argo history (since I started following the team that is).

Yes it is. Even if Willy never plays another game for the Argos, the Mudge trade was the worst ever. Traded an excellent long term Canadian tackle for a great CIS player never to do much in the pros.

[OV Argo]

Yes it is. Even if Willy never plays another game for the Argos, the Mudge trade was the worst ever. Traded an excellent long term Canadian tackle for a great CIS player never to do much in the pros.


We'll see how the 2 draft picks the Bummers got in that deal pan-out before making that call.

Mudge had a solid to decent CFL career - not that long really and hardly a multi year all-star type OT - did have lineman of the year and 2 CFL all-star recognition - but we're not talking Chris Schultz or Walby here. The Bummers may get a long-time CFL starter and all-star out of that upcoming 1st draft pick.

[Argo57]

Time for some new eyes and ears. This guy held it together in some very trying times, but he just couldn't continue to outrun the problems in the long haul. Cardinal sin for a GM = after a losing season, the Team is in a position with no great promise. Trending downwards. Say thanks, and move along.

👍 Pretty accurate take on the situation (unfortunately).

[RB957]

If you fire Jim Barker, who is the replacement? I can think of a number of candidates to replace Scott Milanovich as Head Coach, but an experienced GM with CFL experience is another matter. Please remember the players that Barker found and recruited... Zach Collaros, Trevor Harris, Justin Medlock, Swayze Waters, Cory Boyd, Chad Kackert, Jeremiah Johnson, Curtis Steele, Dontrelle Inman, Marcus Ball, Cleyon Laing, Tristan Okpalaugo, Jason Barnes, Tony Washington, John Chiles, Mitchell Gale, Patrick Watkins, Darvin Adams, SirVincent Rogers etc. etc. Barker understands the Canadian game and has shown he can find talented players. As far as the Willy trade - enough already. They took a chance when the season was still not lost and it didn't work out. That's the way it goes sometimes. I give Barker credit for having the stones to try and pull off a deal like this, knowing the risk. And look at the situation Willy walked into.... within weeks the so-called big three receivers are let go and Willy is left trying to learn a new system with players who have not been starters. While TJ Heath was a good player, a DB does not have as much of an impact on a team as a QB. Losing the draft pick hurts, but it's a Canadian pick, and who's to say whether that pick will ever amount to anything. As far as I am concerned, Barker deserves one more year to turn things around.

[ArgoGabe22]

Barker finds a lot of talent but can't put together a good team. Even I have trouble understanding this and recognize the fact he does bring in good players and pulls off a good trade whenever he can but for some reason can't recruit for the teams biggest needs. Barker even plays free agent game right, in my opinion, and then goes out signing veteran players during free agency only to get burned in the end. All were flops.

[Will]

Barker finds a lot of talent but can't put together a good team. Even I have trouble understanding this and recognize the fact he does bring in good players and pulls off a good trade whenever he can but for some reason can't recruit for the teams biggest needs. Barker even plays free agent game right, in my opinion, and then goes out signing veteran players during free agency only to get burned in the end. All were flops.

I see what you're saying, but the way that this is presented does it not mean that most of the blame should fall on the coaching staff for not moulding the team properly?

[ArgoGabe22]

I see what you're saying, but the way that this is presented does it not mean that most of the blame should fall on the coaching staff for not moulding the team properly?

Looking at it with the little information us fans have, then probably yes. Unless Barker signs too many me first players and it's hard to control the room. Barker also failed to upgrade the line and the defensive backfield throughout his time. So I wouldn't say the blame is entirely on coaching.

[R.J]

Barker has found talent, but IMO where he has trouble is replacing the talent he loses.

As for the complaining about the Drew Willy trade, sorry but Barker and Milo made a horrendous trade, and Milanovich thinking Drew is an elite QB is laughable IMO.

[OV Argo]

Barker has found talent, but IMO where he has trouble is replacing the talent he loses.

As for the complaining about the Drew Willy trade, sorry but Barker and Milo made a horrendous trade, and Milanovich thinking Drew is an elite QB is laughable IMO.

EVERY CFL GM finds some new talent for his team year in and year out - name me one that does not or is so inferior there to Barker. There are lots of good football players out there for a 9 team CFL.

The problem is finding new talent IN areas of need each year, and getting guys (could be new rookie FA imports, proven CFL vets, a draft pick or three) AND who will be a fit for your TEAM and CFL ball. Assuming you've got it made cause you signed a few players with decent NFL resumes who you can just plug in wherever on the roster, does not cut it IMO. And yeah - that trade for Willy was brutal - laughable & desperate. Fire-able offence for a GM right there - especially one who has trouble getting his team in the play-offs in a mediocre East division.

[R.J]

EVERY CFL GM finds some new talent for his team year in and year out - name me one that does not or is so inferior there to Barker. There are lots of good football players out there for a 9 team CFL.

The problem is finding new talent IN areas of need each year, and getting guys (could be new rookie FA imports, proven CFL vets, a draft pick or three) AND who will be a fit for your TEAM and CFL ball. Assuming you've got it made cause you signed a few players with decent NFL resumes who you can just plug in wherever on the roster, does not cut it IMO. And yeah - that trade for Willy was brutal - laughable & desperate. Fire-able offence for a GM right there - especially one who has trouble getting his team in the play-offs in a mediocre East division.
I've never said any different, even Taman found talent.

[Will]

Barker has found talent, but IMO where he has trouble is replacing the talent he loses.

As for the complaining about the Drew Willy trade, sorry but Barker and Milo made a horrendous trade, and Milanovich thinking Drew is an elite QB is laughable IMO.

The Argos defensive backfield has never recovered from Ahmad Carroll and Jordan Younger retiring prior to the 2013 season, Pacino Horne coming to 2013 training camp with an attitude and Patrick Watkins signing with Edmonton following the 2013 season.

I remember back to the mid-2000's when Adrion Smith, Clifford Ivory and Antonious Bonner retired, but there was Byron Parker, Khalil Carter and Willie Pile to replace them.

BTW, speaking of Carter's, whatever happened to Jalil Carter?

[OV Argo]

I've never said any different, even Taman found talent.

Yes - we agree here.

[ArgoGabe22]

BTW, speaking of Carter's, whatever happened to Jalil Carter?

Didn't he sign with Hamilton late last season after his Vikings stint, only to fall off the face of the football world?

[Jon Gonzo]

Maybe it's just how he comes off in the media, but I have not been impressed with what I perceive as a nonchalance towards American skilled Football players.

I get that there are tons of skilled ball players in the States, but if only it were that easy.

Truth is, all the other teams have had a way easier time finding the better players lately. He has been provided this team with a bad Defensive Backfield for three years running. There's a reason that the team that wins the Grey Cup is the team that picked up Mitchell White, brought in Jonathan Rose, to add to an already impressive list that included Kanneh, and Hightower.

The Argos finally get a ball hawk, and then trade him on his birthday. Which on second thought was a pretty good birthday present for him! (;

[R.J]

I'll never understand why the Argos didn't go after Mitchell White.

[Scooter McCray]

Jim Bakker should be fired.

[ArgoRavi]

If you fire Jim Barker, who is the replacement? I can think of a number of candidates to replace Scott Milanovich as Head Coach, but an experienced GM with CFL experience is another matter. Please remember the players that Barker found and recruited... Zach Collaros, Trevor Harris, Justin Medlock, Swayze Waters, Cory Boyd, Chad Kackert, Jeremiah Johnson, Curtis Steele, Dontrelle Inman, Marcus Ball, Cleyon Laing, Tristan Okpalaugo, Jason Barnes, Tony Washington, John Chiles, Mitchell Gale, Patrick Watkins, Darvin Adams, SirVincent Rogers etc. etc. Barker understands the Canadian game and has shown he can find talented players. As far as the Willy trade - enough already. They took a chance when the season was still not lost and it didn't work out. That's the way it goes sometimes. I give Barker credit for having the stones to try and pull off a deal like this, knowing the risk. And look at the situation Willy walked into.... within weeks the so-called big three receivers are let go and Willy is left trying to learn a new system with players who have not been starters. While TJ Heath was a good player, a DB does not have as much of an impact on a team as a QB. Losing the draft pick hurts, but it's a Canadian pick, and who's to say whether that pick will ever amount to anything. As far as I am concerned, Barker deserves one more year to turn things around.

Well said! It is way too early IMO to write off Willy. The level of animosity that so many CFL/Argos fans have against the guy is difficult for me to understand. Did he kill everyone's pets or something? Willy played very well when he first got to Winnipeg but he was simply too beaten up behind their then-atrocious offensive line and lost his confidence. If he is willing to come back on a restructured contract - and I can't imagine that he would have a problem with that given how few other options he would have - then let's see how he would do with a full training camp. That could still turn out to be a genius trade by Barker yet although I realize that is very much a minority opinion.

[OV Argo]

Hilarious Ravi - gotta give you credit as the Eternal Argo Optimist.

So some fans are not impressed by Willy - count me in - seen him play lots and he is a weak QB talent - very little chance he improves IMO. Having him anointed the Argos #1 QB by this current brain-trust would not surprise me one bit though. Hopefully they are not around to get that chance by next TC.

But, that's what you're going to get with these fan forums - varied opinions. Why is there no love for Dan LeFevour here? - i'm think going to call for him to be the Argo superstar QB of the future - you ok with that? - and the Argos got him for FREE. No need to defend Barker or Millanovich on that one because they gave up ZERO to bring him to the Argos. I realize defending Barker or Millanovich though is prime directive to some here.

:shhhh:

[Neely2005]

Hilarious Ravi - gotta give you credit as the Eternal Argo Optimist.

So some fans are not impressed by Willy - count me in - seen him play lots and he is a weak QB talent - very little chance he improves IMO. Having him anointed the Argos #1 QB by this current brain-trust would not surprise me one bit though. Hopefully they are not around to get that chance by next TC.

But, that's what you're going to get with these fan forums - varied opinions. Why is there no love for Dan LeFevour here? - i'm think going to call for him to be the Argo superstar QB of the future - you ok with that? - and the Argos got him for FREE. No need to defend Barker or Millanovich on that one because they gave up ZERO to bring him to the Argos. I realize defending Barker or Millanovich though is prime directive to some here.

:shhhh:

I prefer Ray, LeFevour and Fajardo to Willy. Willy looked lost out there.

[AngeloV]

I prefer Ray, LeFevour and Fajardo to Willy. Willy looked lost out there.

I was a big Willy fan before last year, but he seems to me to be a QB looking at the pass rush now, rather than reading the D. It's nearly impossible to play QB that way. He can hardly be blamed for it though, as he has just had so many beatings over the years. I would prefer he not be retained, but of course I will be pulling for him if he is. I still think Kilgore has a chance to be very good, and hope they haven't given up on him after his bad back to back showings against Winnipeg and Edmonton. Fajardo is also very intriguing to me.

[Neely2005]

I was a big Willy fan before last year, but he seems to me to be a QB looking at the pass rush now, rather than reading the D. It's nearly impossible to play QB that way. He can hardly be blamed for it though, as he has just had so many beatings over the years. I would prefer he not be retained, but of course I will be pulling for him if he is. I still think Kilgore has a chance to be very good, and hope they haven't given up on him after his bad back to back showings against Winnipeg and Edmonton. Fajardo is also very intriguing to me.

Yes he did look scared out there to me at times.

[Ron]

Yes he did look scared out there to me at times.

The biggest mistake Milo made last season was using Willy at all. It was granted and accepted that his confidence needed a rebuild. (Willy said as much) So to throw him in there was no help to Willy. Add to that what Ravi said and it was a recipe for disaster where many fans would be inclined to write him off for good via transference.

[doubleblue]

The biggest mistake Milo made last season was using Willy at all. It was granted and accepted that his confidence needed a rebuild. (Willy said as much) So to throw him in there was no help to Willy. Add to that what Ravi said and it was a recipe for disaster where many fans would be inclined to write him off for good via transference.

I thought Willy looked the same in Toronto as he did in Winnipeg. Can he recover his confidence? Maybe. But a dominant offensive line and a dominant RB like Messam would go a long way to help IMO.

[Argo57]

Well said! It is way too early IMO to write off Willy. The level of animosity that so many CFL/Argos fans have against the guy is difficult for me to understand. Did he kill everyone's pets or something? Willy played very well when he first got to Winnipeg but he was simply too beaten up behind their then-atrocious offensive line and lost his confidence. If he is willing to come back on a restructured contract - and I can't imagine that he would have a problem with that given how few other options he would have - then let's see how he would do with a full training camp. That could still turn out to be a genius trade by Barker yet although I realize that is very much a minority opinion.

Sorry, the genius trade was made by Kyle Walter.

[Argo57]

The biggest mistake Milo made last season was using Willy at all. It was granted and accepted that his confidence needed a rebuild. (Willy said as much) So to throw him in there was no help to Willy. Add to that what Ravi said and it was a recipe for disaster where many fans would be inclined to write him off for good via transference.

So in other words the first overall pick + TJ Heath for a reclamation project?

[Ron]

So in other words the first overall pick + TJ Heath for a reclamation project?

One that Milo has staked his reputation and 2017 season on.

Which is good for the team. Better to have a coach that needs to win this season than some new guy that figures he has some time before the need arises.

[jerrym]

I'm more torn about Barker than SM. He has shown he can find talented players but often seems quite willing to let them go without much effort at resigning them, leading to poor team cohesion, especially in the defensive backfield. Successful teams nearly always keep most of their core players for an extended term. Calgary, Hamilton and Ottawa have shown greater capability at keeping most of their core players. However, I would only replace Barker if an experienced CFL candidate were available. We've seen what happens without the right kind of experience in the past.

[Argo57]

One that Milo has staked his reputation and 2017 season on.

Which is good for the team. Better to have a coach that needs to win this season than some new guy that figures he has some time before the need arises.


Not sure how many professional coaches go into new jobs figuring the have nothing but time to make things happen, most coaches go into new situations motivated to make things happen as guys like Bob O'Billovich, Adam Rita and Scott Milanovich have all proven in the past.
In reality coaching changes don't always work but clearly based on the last 4 seasons the current situation isn't working either.

[paulwoods13]

I did a little analysis of each GM's record since Barker took over the Argos in 2010. I included Popp since there's no record for Kavis Reed yet.

Wally Buono
Record: 76-50-0 (.603) Rank: 2
Home Playoff Games: 5/7
Grey Cup appearances: 1/7
Grey Cup wins: 1/7
QBs developed: Reilly, Lulay, Jennings

John Hufnagel
Record: 89-36-1 (.710) Rank: 1
Home Playoff Games: 6/7
Grey Cup appearances: 3/7
Grey Cup wins: 1/7
QBs developed: Mitchell, Tate

Ed Hervey
Record: 40-32-0 (.556) Rank: 3
Home Playoff Games: 2/4
Grey Cup appearances: 1/4
Grey Cup wins: 1/4
QBs developed: Franklin

Chris Jones
Record: 5-13-0 (.278) Rank: 9
Home Playoff Games: 0/1
Grey Cup appearances: 0/1
Grey Cup wins: 0/1
QBs developed: None

Kyle Walters
Record: 26-46-0 (.361) Rank: 8
Home Playoff Games: 0/4
Grey Cup appearances: 0/4
Grey Cup wins: 0/4
QBs developed: None

Kent Austin
Record: 36-36-0 (.500) Rank: 4 (tie)
Home Playoff Games: 4/4
Grey Cup appearances: 2/4
Grey Cup wins: 0/4
QBs developed: Masoli

Jim Barker
Record: 58-68-0 (.460) Rank: 6
Home Playoff Games: 2/7
Grey Cup appearances: 1/7
Grey Cup wins: 1/7
QBs developed: Collaros, Harris

Marcel Desjardins
Record: 22-31-1 (.417) Rank: 7
Home Playoff Games: 2/3
Grey Cup appearances: 2/3
Grey Cup wins: 1/3
QBs developed: None

Jim Popp
Record: 63-63-0 (.500) Rank: 4 (tie)
Home Playoff Games: 4/7
Grey Cup appearances: 1/7
Grey Cup wins: 1/7
QBs developed: Cato

Based on this, clearly Hufnagel and Buono are at the top, although Hufnagel should have had more than three GC appearances and more than one GC win, considering how strong his teams were in the regular season. Barker's winning percentage (.460) and number of home playoff games (two in seven years) are mediocre but he scores higher than everyone except Buono on QB development. Austin's winning percentage (.500) is mediocre but he has had a home playoff game every year, and got to the GC twice in four seasons. Desjardins has had a good start to his career, GC-wise, but hasn't developed a QB yet. Popp has been mediocre since Calvillo left. Hervey's pretty good (.556, one GC in four seasons). Walters is lousy. Too early to call Jones.

[AngeloV]

Not sure how many professional coaches go into new jobs figuring the have nothing but time to make things happen, most coaches go into new situations motivated to make things happen as guys like Bob O'Billovich, Adam Rita and Scott Milanovich have all proven in the past.
In reality coaching changes don't always work but clearly based on the last 4 seasons the current situation isn't working either.

I think saying the last 4 seasons have been bad is a bit of a stretch. They did finish first in the division in 2013. They lost the playoff game, but that was not a bad season. I still say the half time appearance of Rob Ford (sitting on the Ti-Cats side of the field) was a major factor in losing that day. The team hasn't been the same since the moment he showed up that day.

[R.J]

I still say the half time appearance of Rob Ford (sitting on the Ti-Cats side of the field) was a major factor in losing that day. The team hasn't been the same since the moment he showed up that day.
WTF ?
Blaming Ford for the Argos on field struggles ? I've heard it all now.

[Jon Gonzo]

I think saying the last 4 seasons have been bad is a bit of a stretch. They did finish first in the division in 2013. They lost the playoff game, but that was not a bad season. I still say the half time appearance of Rob Ford (sitting on the Ti-Cats side of the field) was a major factor in losing that day. The team hasn't been the same since the moment he showed up that day.

Angelo, do you really think that a 21 year old kid from Tuskegee even knows, or cares who Rob Ford is?

[Jon Gonzo]

Nice work Paul. Appreciate the effort. When you say Barker has the edge in 'Quarterback Development,' I tend to agree. The only thing I'd add is 'development, for the rest of the league.'

[ArgoGabe22]

WTF ?
Blaming Ford for the Argos on field struggles ? I've heard it all now.

You don't want to know what the team blames for Ray's injury last year (vs Calgary, I believe). It might be even worse than blaming Ford.

[Will]

You don't want to know what the team blames for Ray's injury last year (vs Calgary, I believe). It might be even worse than blaming Ford.

That was all the way back in 2013.

[Will]

Nice work Paul. Appreciate the effort. When you say Barker has the edge in 'Quarterback Development,' I tend to agree. The only thing I'd add is 'development, for the rest of the league.'

Yes, that doesn't help.

[R.J]

You don't want to know what the team blames for Ray's injury last year (vs Calgary, I believe). It might be even worse than blaming Ford.
???
Drawing a blank. A refresher is needed.

[ArgoGabe22]

???
Drawing a blank. A refresher is needed.

Like Will said, it was actually 2013. To protect a good source, I'm not sure I can say it but I'll leave a pic and you may notice something particular about the game itself.

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/mo7uZ"><a href="//imgur.com/mo7uZ"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[R.J]

Those great throwback unis ? I don't know - oh well.

[paulwoods13]

The GM analysis shows that in the past seven seasons, only seven starting-calibre QBs (Jennings, Lulay, Reilly, Mitchell, Collaros, Harris and [arguably] Nichols) have been recruited into the league. Jury is still out on Franklin and Cato, and I think Masoli is established as a solid backup, not a starter. If a 9-team league can recruit and develop only one starting-calibre QB on average every season, is it any wonder old-timers like Burris, Ray and Durant are still playing?

[ArgoGabe22]

Those great throwback unis ? I don't know - oh well.

FWIW we haven't seen the boat logo in use since then. And it might not be a coincidence. The boat logo may be as unlucky as Rob Ford.

[paulwoods13]

Those great throwback unis ? I don't know - oh well.

The focus on the 1983 reunion? Maybe it distracted fans from loudly supporting the Argos? I know it distracted the hell out of me -- I saw almost none of that game because I was set up on the concourse selling books. I blame myself to some extent (because I'm one of the lunatics who believes fan support can actually influence the outcome of games.)

[AngeloV]

Angelo, do you really think that a 21 year old kid from Tuskegee even knows, or cares who Rob Ford is?

LOL. Sometimes I love just getting a reaction on here.

[AngeloV]

WTF ?
Blaming Ford for the Argos on field struggles ? I've heard it all now.

Relax there SnowRogue. It was a semi sarcastic comment.

[R.J]

FWIW we haven't seen the boat logo in use since then. And it might not be a coincidence. The boat logo may be as unlucky as Rob Ford.
I really can't tell if you're being serious.

The focus on the 1983 reunion? Maybe it distracted fans from loudly supporting the Argos? I know it distracted the hell out of me -- I saw almost none of that game because I was set up on the concourse selling books. I blame myself to some extent (because I'm one of the lunatics who believes fan support can actually influence the outcome of games.)
I agree, fans can influence a game, but usually good teams win and bad teams lose. In saying that, the two games in Hamilton in 2015, go to show that the team can and does feed off the crowd. I can't imagine what the players thought when they saw those crowds.

Relax there SnowRogue. It was a semi sarcastic comment.
Semi sarcastic implies that you were half serious - still concerning.

[ArgoGabe22]

Oh, I'm serious. Sports people are very superstitious.

[timlb01]

WTF ?
Blaming Ford for the Argos on field struggles ? I've heard it all now.

I blame TFC for destroying the pitch. If we had the stadium to our selves we would have been undefeated at home.

[Argo57]

Nice work Paul. Appreciate the effort. When you say Barker has the edge in 'Quarterback Development,' I tend to agree. The only thing I'd add is 'development, for the rest of the league.'

I'm sure the other teams thank him though!!

[paulwoods13]

Sure, it's galling that we have lost two starting-calibre QBs because we had too much depth at that position. But the fact is that of the other 8 GMs, only two have recruited and developed any starting QBs in the time Barker has been in his present position. He hasn't been a roaring success as a GM, obviously, but IMO he gets full marks for being able to find QBs who can play, a very important skill for a GM in any football league. It's entirely possible he has continued to do this with Kilgore and/or Fajardo.

[Argo57]

I think saying the last 4 seasons have been bad is a bit of a stretch. They did finish first in the division in 2013. They lost the playoff game, but that was not a bad season. I still say the half time appearance of Rob Ford (sitting on the Ti-Cats side of the field) was a major factor in losing that day. The team hasn't been the same since the moment he showed up that day.

When it counts 2 missed playoffs and zero playoff wins in the last 4 seasons, nothing to get too excited about.

[ArgoRavi]

I think saying the last 4 seasons have been bad is a bit of a stretch. They did finish first in the division in 2013. They lost the playoff game, but that was not a bad season. I still say the half time appearance of Rob Ford (sitting on the Ti-Cats side of the field) was a major factor in losing that day. The team hasn't been the same since the moment he showed up that day.

Let's look at the past five seasons (record includes postseason games):

2012: 12-9, Won Grey Cup
2013: 11-8, Lost East Final at home
2014: 8-10, Best ever non-playoff record in the East. Only one point less than Grey Cup champs Ottawa in 2016.
2015: 10-9, Only played 4 true home games
2016: 5-13

The only really bad year that the Barker/Milanovich combo has had in five years is this past season. That combo has kept the Argos competitive and contending for most of their time in Toronto. I am willing to write off one bad year at this point and see if they can get this turned back around in 2017. It isn't like they have had five terrible years in a row.

[1971GreyCup]

I did a little analysis of each GM's record since Barker took over the Argos in 2010. I included Popp since there's no record for Kavis Reed yet.

Wally Buono
Record: 76-50-0 (.603) Rank: 2
Home Playoff Games: 5/7
Grey Cup appearances: 1/7
Grey Cup wins: 1/7
QBs developed: Reilly, Lulay, Jennings

John Hufnagel
Record: 89-36-1 (.710) Rank: 1
Home Playoff Games: 6/7
Grey Cup appearances: 3/7
Grey Cup wins: 1/7
QBs developed: Mitchell, Tate

Ed Hervey
Record: 40-32-0 (.556) Rank: 3
Home Playoff Games: 2/4
Grey Cup appearances: 1/4
Grey Cup wins: 1/4
QBs developed: Franklin

Chris Jones
Record: 5-13-0 (.278) Rank: 9
Home Playoff Games: 0/1
Grey Cup appearances: 0/1
Grey Cup wins: 0/1
QBs developed: None

Kyle Walters
Record: 26-46-0 (.361) Rank: 8
Home Playoff Games: 0/4
Grey Cup appearances: 0/4
Grey Cup wins: 0/4
QBs developed: None

Kent Austin
Record: 36-36-0 (.500) Rank: 4 (tie)
Home Playoff Games: 4/4
Grey Cup appearances: 2/4
Grey Cup wins: 0/4
QBs developed: Masoli

Jim Barker
Record: 58-68-0 (.460) Rank: 6
Home Playoff Games: 2/7
Grey Cup appearances: 1/7
Grey Cup wins: 1/7
QBs developed: Collaros, Harris

Marcel Desjardins
Record: 22-31-1 (.417) Rank: 7
Home Playoff Games: 2/3
Grey Cup appearances: 2/3
Grey Cup wins: 1/3
QBs developed: None

Jim Popp
Record: 63-63-0 (.500) Rank: 4 (tie)
Home Playoff Games: 4/7
Grey Cup appearances: 1/7
Grey Cup wins: 1/7
QBs developed: Cato

Based on this, clearly Hufnagel and Buono are at the top, although Hufnagel should have had more than three GC appearances and more than one GC win, considering how strong his teams were in the regular season. Barker's winning percentage (.460) and number of home playoff games (two in seven years) are mediocre but he scores higher than everyone except Buono on QB development. Austin's winning percentage (.500) is mediocre but he has had a home playoff game every year, and got to the GC twice in four seasons. Desjardins has had a good start to his career, GC-wise, but hasn't developed a QB yet. Popp has been mediocre since Calvillo left. Hervey's pretty good (.556, one GC in four seasons). Walters is lousy. Too early to call Jones.

It's hardly fair to judge Jim Popps merit as a GM by Jim Barkers tenure. Too convenient.

By the way, I don't know any CFL GMs that developed 2 CFL Hall of Famers QBs Tracy Ham and Anthony Cavillo in their career. Jim Popp did. He also went to the Grey Cup 10 times in 13 years. PLUS developed CFL Hall of Famers RB Mike Pringle, WR Ben Cahoon. Call him what you want, but not mediocre!

JB's QBs Zachary Collaros and Trevor Harris have plenty of potential. But hardly CFL Hall of Famers yet. In fact, which Argos has JB developed since 2010 is headed to the CFL Hall of Fame? In fact, since 2010 JB may have actually turned a CFL Hall of Fame QB into ordinary in the process.

Am I wrong here?

Call me crazy, but if Michael Copeland would create a corporate structure that prevents Jim Popp from becoming HC again, I'd hire him in tomorrow.

Anyone agree or disagree?

[OV Argo]

It's hardly fair to judge Jim Popps merit as a GM by Jim Barkers tenure. Too convenient.

By the way, I don't know any CFL GMs that developed 2 CFL Hall of Famers QBs Tracy Ham and Anthony Cavillo in their career. Jim Popp did. He also went to the Grey Cup 10 times in 13 years. PLUS developed CFL Hall of Famers RB Mike Pringle, WR Ben Cahoon. Call him what you want, but not mediocre!

JB's QBs Zachary Collaros and Trevor Harris have plenty of potential. But hardly CFL Hall of Famers yet. In fact, which Argos has JB developed since 2010 is headed to the CFL Hall of Fame? In fact, since 2010 JB may have actually turned a CFL Hall of Fame QB into ordinary in the process.

Am I wrong here?

Call me crazy, but if Michael Copeland would create a corporate structure that prevents Jim Popp from becoming HC again, I'd hire him in tomorrow.

Anyone agree or disagree?

Sorry, I'd take Barker anyday now over faded, ego-clown Poop now.

And I would wish to see neither anywhere near running the Toronto Argonauts.

[R.J]

I blame TFC for destroying the pitch. If we had the stadium to our selves we would have been undefeated at home.
LOL

Sorry, I'd take Barker anyday now over faded, ego-clown Poop now.

And I would wish to see neither anywhere near running the Toronto Argonauts.
I agree on both points.

[gilthethrill]

Sorry 1971greycup, but Popp did not develop Tracey Ham. He was an established CFL qb way before he came to Montreal.

[ArgoGabe22]

Sorry 1971greycup, but Popp did not develop Tracey Ham. He was an established CFL qb way before he came to Montreal.

I'm not sure Popp developed Calvillo either. Popp may have brought him in the right environment, working behind Ham and with Don Matthews and later Marc Trestman. I guess this could be debatable.

[R.J]

Neither Popp nor Barker developed anybody, they found 'em, the coaches develop.

[1971GreyCup]

Sorry 1971greycup, but Popp did not develop Tracey Ham. He was an established CFL qb way before he came to Montreal.

Jim Popp had he foresight to pick Tracey Ham from Edmonton, when he was the new GM in Baltimore? Actually wasn't Baltimore a CFL success story in a disasterous US expansion.

Popp also picked up journeyman Anthony Cavillo from Las Vegas for Montreal. After a stint in Hamilton.

Just because I am a Double Blue fan doesn't blind me to facts.

"Since football returned to Montreal the Alouettes had from 1996 to 2014 the CFL's longest active playoff streak, having missed the playoffs twice since returning to the league. The streak came to an end in 2015. They have hosted a playoff game every year except 2001, 2007, 2013, 2015 and 2016 and have never finished with fewer than six wins. ". Does anyone really want to argue about Popps success?

Jim Popp is headed for the Hall of Fame. I am just laying out the facts.

The problems we're facing in Toronto are those faced in Montreal. Jim Popp helped successfully rejuvenate a dead franchise in the 2nd largest urban area in Canada. "History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme" Mark Twain

[1971GreyCup]

I did a little analysis of each GM's record since Barker took over the Argos in 2010. I included Popp since there's no record for Kavis Reed yet.

Jim Popp
Record: 63-63-0 (.500) Rank: 4 (tie)
Home Playoff Games: 4/7
Grey Cup appearances: 1/7
Grey Cup wins: 1/7
QBs developed: Cato

Popp has been mediocre since Calvillo left. Hervey's pretty good.

Cherry picking short term statistics is a dangerous game. Especially when you have the long term statistics at hand. I came across this fact on legendary investor Warren Buffett. Buffett has had mediocre investment performance, but you'd be insane to call he man mediocre!

"Even Warren Buffett, the billionaire head of Berkshire Hathaway who is followed by millions of investor devotees, has bad years. Newfound Research analyzed Buffett's track record and found he underperforms the broad index about once every three years and he's had 10 periods when he missed the benchmark by 10 percent or more over a significant period of time."

But those who stuck with Buffett through the years have benefited from being patient. Buffett turned an initial $100 investment into a handsome $250,000. It took 54 years and many of which were mediocre.

[ArgoGabe22]

Cherry picking short term statistics is a dangerous game. Especially when you have the long term statistics at hand. I came across this fact on legendary investor Warren Buffett. Buffett has had mediocre investment performance, but you'd be insane to call he man mediocre!

"Even Warren Buffett, the billionaire head of Berkshire Hathaway who is followed by millions of investor devotees, has bad years. Newfound Research analyzed Buffett's track record and found he underperforms the broad index about once every three years and he's had 10 periods when he missed the benchmark by 10 percent or more over a significant period of time."

But those who stuck with Buffett through the years have benefited from being patient. Buffett turned an initial $100 investment into a handsome $250,000. It took 54 years and many of which were mediocre.

Oh, the irony.

[paulwoods13]

It's hardly fair to judge Jim Popps merit as a GM by Jim Barkers tenure. Too convenient.

By the way, I don't know any CFL GMs that developed 2 CFL Hall of Famers QBs Tracy Ham and Anthony Cavillo in their career. Jim Popp did. He also went to the Grey Cup 10 times in 13 years. PLUS developed CFL Hall of Famers RB Mike Pringle, WR Ben Cahoon. Call him what you want, but not mediocre!

JB's QBs Zachary Collaros and Trevor Harris have plenty of potential. But hardly CFL Hall of Famers yet. In fact, which Argos has JB developed since 2010 is headed to the CFL Hall of Fame? In fact, since 2010 JB may have actually turned a CFL Hall of Fame QB into ordinary in the process.

Am I wrong here?

Call me crazy, but if Michael Copeland would create a corporate structure that prevents Jim Popp from becoming HC again, I'd hire him in tomorrow.

Anyone agree or disagree?

I disagree with most of this, not surprisingly. First of all, Popp was a tremendously successful GM from 1996 to 2010, but since then -- meh. Sure, I could have listed his record over his entire tenure, but what's the point if he has done next to nothing in the past half-dozen years? It's the Popp of 2010-2016 that Barker was competing against, not the Popp of 1996-2009.

Secondly, Popp did not recruit either Calvillo or Ham. Yes, he picked Calvillo up off the scrap heap, and he was fortunate that Ham went to free agency at the same time as Baltimore was putting together its roster. But he gets zero credit for finding either guy. Credit goes to the Eskimos' GM of 1986-87 for Ham, and the Las Vegas GM for Calvillo. My point was which GMs brought QBs who can play/start into the league. Popp has yet to do that in 20 years (jury still out on Cato).

Collaros and Harris may or may not become Hall of Famers (Harris almost certainly won't) but Collaros is a bona fide starter with all-star potential, and Harris seems established as at least a starting-calibre QB. And as the analysis showed, only six or seven of those have come into the entire league over the past seven years. Two brought in by Barker.

As for hiring Popp, despite the fact he has done little to nothing successful over the past half-decade, yes, I would be open to hiring him as head of football ops.

[Will]

Hugh was Eskimos GM when Ham was signed.

[ArgoRavi]

Hugh was Eskimos GM when Ham was signed.

Ron Meyer was the head coach in Las Vegas. Was he the GM or head of football ops as well? I think that he was so I guess you could give him credit for Calvillo.

[Will]

Ron Meyer was the head coach in Las Vegas. Was he the GM or head of football ops as well? I think that he was so I guess you could give him credit for Calvillo.

I don't know what titles he held, if any, aside from head coach.

However, with Calvillo, I realize he showed potential right off the bat, but let's face it he wasn't a HOF QB until he got to Montreal, but wouldn't whoever Montreal's HC was at the time deserve the credit?

[paulwoods13]

QBs are in fact developed by head coaches, offensive co-ordinators and QB coaches (in some cases). GMs should get no credit for "developing" them but should get full credit for recruiting starting-calibre QBs into the league. So Popp gets no credit for Calvillo or Ham.

[doubleblue]

Ron Meyer was the head coach in Las Vegas. Was he the GM or head of football ops as well? I think that he was so I guess you could give him credit for Calvillo.

Always remember a quote from Ron Meyer who had been a Head Coach with New England Patriots before coaching in Las Vegas. He had a NCAA hot shot WR named Tamerick Vanover in Las Vegas who had dropped out of school after his Junior year. He was going to burn up the CFL waiting for his draft year in the NFL. But he wasn't the star they thought he was going to be, and couldn't get open very often. Meyer finally came out and told the reporters that he had found out that there was very little if any, drop off in the calibre of the CFL CB's compared to the NFL. And the reason Vanover wasn't as good in the CFL as the NCAA, was the fact he was up against much better veteran players.
But we still have fans who think the NCAA ball is a better calibre than the CFL.

[1971GreyCup]

QBs are in fact developed by head coaches, offensive co-ordinators and QB coaches (in some cases). GMs should get no credit for "developing" them but should get full credit for recruiting starting-calibre QBs into the league. So Popp gets no credit for Calvillo or Ham.

I guess I got started on this when you wrote "But the fact is that of the other 8 GMs, only two have recruited and developed any starting QBs in the time Barker has been in his present position." Let's leave it at that.

We do agree that Popp should be named Argos Head of Football Operations before any further moves are made. I am starting to think that may happen. They've done that in the past with Ralph Sazio put above Leo Cahill.

[OV Argo]

Cripes, why not Leo Cahill as GM and Obie as HC for the Argos now ? - both have lots of CFL experience.

Jim Poop's Als have floundered around worse than the Argos for several years now. The clown thinks signing washed-up or over-rated NFL or all-American super-hero names like Ochocinco and Michael Sam for the CFL is a good idea; he's had the ego to install himself as HC several times in his tenure there even though it is clear he has no clue in coaching; he failed to develop a young QB behind vet Calvillo for years and years, leaving the Als woefully weak there after AC departed. Poop hired Dan Hawkins as his HC = laughable; he paid mega-bucks for an over-rated, ego-clown receiver (son of an NFL HOFer though - that's so important to Poop) and had to cut him cause he was hurting the TEAM; but instead let go a top notch Canadian talent in Henoc Muamba. The Als have been over the CFL $M$ cap and penalized for it.

Yet - Some want this guy hired by the Argos now ??? - bizzarre/baffling other it explains the good ole thinking that the CFL just has to constantly recycle & re-use American football decision makers who have proven to be mediocre or whose success was way in the past, but who get CFL chance after chance after chance.

[ArgoRavi]

I don't know what titles he held, if any, aside from head coach.

However, with Calvillo, I realize he showed potential right off the bat, but let's face it he wasn't a HOF QB until he got to Montreal, but wouldn't whoever Montreal's HC was at the time deserve the credit?

That would be Dave Ritchie then.

[1971GreyCup]

Merry Christmas all! Today goodwill to all. But tomorrow........

[Argo57]

Merry Christmas all! Today goodwill to all. But tomorrow........

Yes, tomorrow we will reconvene to see who should be fired✌️

[jerrym]

If you fire Jim Barker, who is the replacement? I can think of a number of candidates to replace Scott Milanovich as Head Coach, but an experienced GM with CFL experience is another matter. Please remember the players that Barker found and recruited... Zach Collaros, Trevor Harris, Justin Medlock, Swayze Waters, Cory Boyd, Chad Kackert, Jeremiah Johnson, Curtis Steele, Dontrelle Inman, Marcus Ball, Cleyon Laing, Tristan Okpalaugo, Jason Barnes, Tony Washington, John Chiles, Mitchell Gale, Patrick Watkins, Darvin Adams, SirVincent Rogers etc. etc. Barker understands the Canadian game and has shown he can find talented players. As far as the Willy trade - enough already. They took a chance when the season was still not lost and it didn't work out. That's the way it goes sometimes. I give Barker credit for having the stones to try and pull off a deal like this, knowing the risk. And look at the situation Willy walked into.... within weeks the so-called big three receivers are let go and Willy is left trying to learn a new system with players who have not been starters. While TJ Heath was a good player, a DB does not have as much of an impact on a team as a QB. Losing the draft pick hurts, but it's a Canadian pick, and who's to say whether that pick will ever amount to anything. As far as I am concerned, Barker deserves one more year to turn things around.

It's precisely because Barker does such a good job of recruiting but cannot seem to hold on to so many key players that I believe is one of the Argos principal problems. While all teams lose some players to free agency and the NFL, Barker seems to be particularly poor are retaining important players over time leading to poor team cohesion, especially along the OL and DB. Longterm successful GMs like Buono and Hufnagel seem to do a much better job at retaining key players and building team cohesion.

[paulwoods13]

I guess I got started on this when you wrote "But the fact is that of the other 8 GMs, only two have recruited and developed any starting QBs in the time Barker has been in his present position." Let's leave it at that.

We do agree that Popp should be named Argos Head of Football Operations before any further moves are made. I am starting to think that may happen. They've done that in the past with Ralph Sazio put above Leo Cahill.

Yes, I erroneously said "developed" when I meant "recruited." And for the record, I did not state I agree that Popp should be named head of football ops. I said I was open to that. There's a difference.

[doubleblue]

The fact that things have dragged out this long, with Jim Barker re-signing some of the FA's and it appears to be business as usual, although quietly, I don't see any change. But I can see the rumoured hiring of a President over Football Operations, similar to what Shanahan is with the Leafs. The problem is probably getting the guy they want. After John Hufnagel the pool drops off a bit. Huff might not want to move at this stage in the game, but everybody has a price. It would have to be a "name" person IMO to get some media attention and the ticket buyers excited again. Tall order. Popp has been mentioned, but IMO they need someone who lives in the Toronto year round.

[1971GreyCup]

Yes, I erroneously said "developed" when I meant "recruited." And for the record, I did not state I agree that Popp should be named head of football ops. I said I was open to that. There's a difference.

Duly noted.

[AngeloV]

The fact that things have dragged out this long, with Jim Barker re-signing some of the FA's and it appears to be business as usual, although quietly, I don't see any change. But I can see the rumoured hiring of a President over Football Operations, similar to what Shanahan is with the Leafs. The problem is probably getting the guy they want. After John Hufnagel the pool drops off a bit. Huff might not want to move at this stage in the game, but everybody has a price. It would have to be a "name" person IMO to get some media attention and the ticket buyers excited again. Tall order. Popp has been mentioned, but IMO they need someone who lives in the Toronto year round.

IMO, when all is said and done, my guess is that Barker will become the president of football operations and hire a new GM. We all know that I want Milanovich back, but I said after the season, that I don't expect him back and still feel that way. If Milanovich isn't back, I would like to see the Argos look at 1 of 2 people to replace him. The first being Matt Dunnigan. He obviously still has his pulse on the league, and he may turn out to be another Ron Lancaster. As most of us remember, Lancaster struggled his first time around, when similar to Dunnigan was put into a bad first time coaching situation.

My second pick would surprise many, especially SnowRogue, but it is Mike Benevides. I like the thought of a local guy that has had some degree of success in the league being the guy here. He did an ok job in BC, and I think he too would likely be even better 2nd time around.

[ArgoGabe22]

I wouldn't be against Dunigan getting another chance but I doubt he'll even be considered by upper management, unless his Bell ties run deep. I know AV mentioned him in the past, but I'd love to see Kerwin Bell given the HC gig. Although I doubt he's on the Argos radar and just got hired by Valdosta Sate.

It may take a year or two but two interesting candidates that I wouldn't mind seeing as HC is either Devone Claybrooks or Mark Kilam. A young coach with CFL experience may be exactly what the Argos need in order to change things around and get away from the GOB mentality.

Another coach that is on my radar is Kevin Eiben. Not sure I'd hand him the DC or HC title so soon, so he may not even be interested. Did a good job at Mac but it's hard to evaluate him with the UofT team he has.

[Argo57]

IMO, when all is said and done, my guess is that Barker will become the president of football operations and hire a new GM. We all know that I want Milanovich back, but I said after the season, that I don't expect him back and still feel that way. If Milanovich isn't back, I would like to see the Argos look at 1 of 2 people to replace him. The first being Matt Dunnigan. He obviously still has his pulse on the league, and he may turn out to be another Ron Lancaster. As most of us remember, Lancaster struggled his first time around, when similar to Dunnigan was put into a bad first time coaching situation.

My second pick would surprise many, especially SnowRogue, but it is Mike Benevides. I like the thought of a local guy that has had some degree of success in the league being the guy here. He did an ok job in BC, and I think he too would likely be even better 2nd time around.

A scenario I hadn't considered but entirely possible Angelo.
I actually wouldn't mind this, keep Barker and have a fresh outlook and approach at GM.
Coaching staff still needs to go IMO.

[Argo57]

I wouldn't be against Dunigan getting another chance but I doubt he'll even be considered by upper management, unless his Bell ties run deep. I know AV mentioned him in the past, but I'd love to see Kerwin Bell given the HC gig. Although I doubt he's on the Argos radar and just got hired by Valdosta Sate.

It may take a year or two but two interesting candidates that I wouldn't mind seeing as HC is either Devone Claybrooks or Mark Kilam. A young coach with CFL experience may be exactly what the Argos need in order to change things around and get away from the GOB mentality.

Another coach that is on my radar is Kevin Eiben. Not sure I'd hand him the DC or HC title so soon, so he may not even be interested. Did a good job at Mac but it's hard to evaluate him with the UofT team he has.

Interesting, Claybrooks and Killam have both been in a winning program for quite some time.
Eiben would be better served if he started as a positional coach and move up from there IMO, would be nice to see him back in any capacity.

[OV Argo]

Interesting, Claybrooks and Killam have both been in a winning program for quite some time.
Eiben would be better served if he started as a positional coach and move up from there IMO, would be nice to see him back in any capacity.


Leroy Blugh has 10x more coaching experience and about 100x more experience in Canadian football period than an almost total coaching neophyte in Claybrooks; and Blugh and the coaching staff he was on just beat the favored (and IMO vastly over-rated) super-hero Huff led Stamps and their coaches in the big game.

Love to see Blugh get a call or interview for the Argos DC job, if not the HC gig - he has previous HC experience in CIS ball, CFL coaching experience and tons of CFL playing experience = WAYYYYYYY more Canadian football experience than the typical CFL coaching hire.

Killam has built up some CFL coaching experience - just STs though?; seems like a bit of an emotional hyper type on the sidelines to me - don't like those types on a football coaching staff - certainly not as HC, OC or DC.

[Argo57]

Leroy Blugh has 10x more coaching experience and about 100x more experience in Canadian football period than an almost total coaching neophyte in Claybrooks; and Blugh and the coaching staff he was on just beat the favored (and IMO vastly over-rated) super-hero Huff led Stamps and their coaches in the big game.

Love to see Blugh get a call or interview for the Argos DC job, if not the HC gig - he has previous HC experience in CIS ball, CFL coaching experience and tons of CFL playing experience = WAYYYYYYY more Canadian football experience than the typical CFL coaching hire.

Killam has built up some CFL coaching experience - just STs though?; seems like a bit of an emotional hyper type on the sidelines to me - don't like those types on a football coaching staff - certainly not as HC, OC or DC.

Always like Blugh as a player, I knew he was with Ottawa last season and obviously did a good job with them.
Just read up on him, didn't realize the battle he has had with his health (Type 2, and cancer).
DC seems like a logical next step OV, you are much more in tune with his career than I, do you think he would be far off a HC gig?

[OV Argo]

Always like Blugh as a player, I knew he was with Ottawa last season and obviously did a good job with them.
Just read up on him, didn't realize the battle he has had with his health (Type 2, and cancer).
DC seems like a logical next step OV, you are much more in tune with his career than I, do you think he would be far off a HC gig?

As I said - Blugh has lots of both coaching and playing experience in Canadian football/ CFL ball = almost over-qualified and maybe wrong passport in traditional GOB land. Dan Hawkins with ZERO experience in Canadian football can get handed a CFL HC gig but Blugh has to apprentice for 20 years or so??? Claybrooks is a DC a couple of years after retiring from playing (and played a fraction of time in the CFL compared to Blugh), but Blugh is still a position coach (i.e. not handed a DC job) ??? Millanovich sat on a CFL bench as a player for all of a couple of seasons and then gets a coffee fetch job with Trestman and that is enough to get him promoted to HC ???

Sorry - something is wrong with those pictures - just IMO.

Argos could hire Jim Poop though.

:ohno:

[Argo57]

As I said - Blugh has lots of both coaching and playing experience in Canadian football/ CFL ball = almost over-qualified and maybe wrong passport in traditional GOB land. Dan Hawkins with ZERO experience in Canadian football can get handed a CFL HC gig but Blugh has to apprentice for 20 years or so??? Claybrooks is a DC a couple of years after retiring from playing (and played a fraction of time in the CFL compared to Blugh), but Blugh is still a position coach (i.e. not handed a DC job) ??? Millanovich sat on a CFL bench as a player for all of a couple of seasons and then gets a coffee fetch job with Trestman and that is enough to get him promoted to HC ??

Sorry - something is wrong with those pictures - just IMO.

Argos could hire Jim Poop though.

:ohno:

No thanks to Popp.
Some interesting possibilities, hopefully the Argos (Copeland) figure things out sooner rather than later.

[gilthethrill]

How about Jeff Garcia as HC?

[ArgoZ]

How about Jeff Garcia as HC? Offensive coordinator would be more fitting. I don't see any head coach experience to hand someone like him the reins. I doubt he wants to leave his California life and family (former playmate wife, not that there's anything wrong with that), to come back to Canada though.