CFL greats that won't ever be remembered as Argos

[ArgoGabe22]

"Great" is a loose term, perhaps "good" is more appropriate. I started off with Marc Boerigter and Robert Edwards who were impressive with the Stamps and Als but have certainly been forgotten as Argos.

Some other great names:

Ben Zambiasi
Elfrid Payton
Kent Austin
David Boone
Terry Evanshen
Tommy Joe Coffey
James Quick Parker
Jackie Parker
Ellison Kelly

[Will]

@Panikkar37 said Jermaine Copeland on Twitter. He was not as productive as he was in Calgary and Montreal, but that may have been a consequence of playing with Cleo Lemon.

Gordon Judges played a couple of years in Toronto in the early 1980's, but is associated with the Montreal Alouettes.

How about some players who the Argos let go early in their careers who went on to star in other places. The notorious entrants on this list would be Tom Wilkinson and Danny Bass. You could almost make the argument that Willie Pless isn't remembered as an Argo (although he was very good here).

[ArgoGabe22]

How about some players who the Argos let go early in their careers who went on to star in other places. The notorious entrants on this list would be Tom Wilkinson and Danny Bass. You could almost make the argument that Willie Pless isn't remembered as an Argo (although he was very good here).

Gurley, Hazelton, Elliot, TJ Heath, and Ronnie Pfeffer :D

In all seriousness, Terrence Edwards should've been an Argo but was a TC cut.

[Shatto]

As a kid I had the privilege of seeing Jackie Parker in his prime. At that time he was better than any player in the CFL and perhaps even better than any player in the NFL. Unfortunately when he became an Argo he was coming to the end of his career and age and injuries had reduced his skills. In my opinion it is a toss-up as to whether Flutie or Parker was the best ever QB to play in the CFL.

[Neely2005]

Keon Raymond comes to mind for a recent one.

[Argo57]

Dale Potter and Vince Goldsmith are a couple of very good players that played in Toronto as well.

[gilthethrill]

Joe Montford was really forgetable as an Argo. Really disagree about Elfrid Payton. He had 16 sacks in his only season as an Argo....man was I pissed when Etchevery cut him in TC the next season. The Argos had a chance to have both Montford and Payton on the ends....

[Jon Gonzo]

Not all greats, but most All Stars;

Patrick Watkins, Brian Ramsay, Nick Bastaja, Neil Lumsden, Steve Morley, Sir Vincent Rogers, Terry Evanshan, ML Harris, Tony Washington, Angus Reid, Dan Federkeil, Otha Foster, Zac Henderson, Lin J Shell, John Chiles, Darvin Adams, Julian Feoli-Gudino, Franklin King, Leroy Blugh, Dwight Anderson, Terrell Sinkfield, Alex Suber, Aston Whiteside, Ken McEachern

[ArgoGabe22]

Disagree with Watkins, Chiles and Shell. I think they were at their best as Argos tbh. Watkins has really struggled this season and it's not like he had a long Eskimos career that everyone forgets he was an Argo.

[Argo57]

Not all greats, but most All Stars;

Patrick Watkins, Brian Ramsay, Nick Bastaja, Neil Lumsden, Steve Morley, Sir Vincent Rogers, Terry Evanshan, ML Harris, Tony Washington, Angus Reid, Dan Federkeil, Otha Foster, Zac Henderson, Lin J Shell, John Chiles, Darvin Adams, Julian Feoli-Gudino, Franklin King, Leroy Blugh, Dwight Anderson, Terrell Sinkfield, Alex Suber, Aston Whiteside, Ken McEachern

Blugh, Bastaja, Evanshan are great examples.
Paul Bennett would be another to add to the list.

[jerrym]

Blugh, Bastaja, Evanshan are great examples.
Paul Bennett would be another to add to the list.

I would remember Paul Bennett first and foremost as an Argo, but then I'm biased.

[Gill The Thrill]

I would remember Paul Bennett first and foremost as an Argo, but then I'm biased.Bennett even had 2 spells here. He started his pro career in Toronto in 1977 under then Head Coach Leo Cahill, (who was on his 2nd go around with the Double Blue) and then was brought back by O'Billovich in 1984 to replace Ken MacEachern (another guy mentioned) at Safety. Obie and Bennett never seemed to get along although I thought he played well in that '84 season, he was cut in the 2nd half of that season, which was quite the stupid move...I thought it was then, and I still do now. Obie would put one of his best Canadian offensive players in Jan Carinci to play Safety for the rest of that season...it's not as if Carinci wasn't being used, he was playing slot, and running back at times while also returning punts and kickoffs, as well as being the backup punter. I've been able to re-live his vain attempt to run a Ticat punt out of bounds in OT before the clock got to :00 in that '84 East Final. He looked totally burnt out, as watching that game on youtube made me remember how often he was on the field in that 80 minute game.

Carinci also performed well in BC, but is more remembered as an Argo. Another Canadian that has not been mentioned but got to Toronto on the back side of his career was Jeff Fairholm. He was a great receiver who should be more fondly remembered as a Saskatchewan Roughrider, playing an integral on their Grey Cup 1989 Championship team playing slotback along with Ray Elgaard. That duo at the slotback positions could be regarded as not just the best Canadian duo in those positions, but even the best duo period. By the time he got to the Argos in 1993, he appeared to have lost a step off that lightning speed which he possessed in his first 4 seasons with the Roughriders.

That 93 Argo team which was pretty bad also picked up another speedy Canadian in Wally Zatalyny, a guy who definitely is more remembered as a Hamilton Ticat, than an Argo.

[ArgoGabe22]

Mookie only played 3 seasons with Edmonton but for whatever reason I tend to notice a lot of pictures with him an Eskimo used rather than as an Argo and it bugs me.

[ArgoRavi]

Mookie only played 3 seasons with Edmonton but for whatever reason I tend to notice a lot of pictures with him an Eskimo used rather than as an Argo and it bugs me.

It might be a bit of that "once an Eskimo, always an Eskimo" thing and also because Mookie settled down in Edmonton IIRC after his career ended in 2007 (following one final season with Toronto).

[Will]

Joe Montford was really forgetable as an Argo. Really disagree about Elfrid Payton. He had 16 sacks in his only season as an Argo....man was I pissed when Etchevery cut him in TC the next season. The Argos had a chance to have both Montford and Payton on the ends....

It has nothing to do with whether or not they had good years in Toronto, but rather players who in spite of this will still be most remembered as a player on another team.

To Gill (with spaces) point, the Argos picked up several former Ticats in those bad years (1993-1995) including Mike Kerrigan, Tony Champion and I believe Derek McAdoo. They also picked up Larry Willis for that fateful 1993 season.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Danny Barrett developed into a pretty decent quarterback and a helluva coach but was used as primarily a receiver for the Argos.

[Will]

Josh Bourke

[stuntdog]

JC Watts, Jock Climie, Terry Baker & of course Wayne Lammle

[Will]

Danny Barrett developed into a pretty decent quarterback and a helluva coach but was used as primarily a receiver for the Argos.

Barrett started at receiver in the infamous 1988 Eastern Final loss to the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. I think that John Congemi was Gilbert Renfroe's primary backup that season, but I believe Barrett did have to start quite a bit in the 1987 season when Renfroe got injured. This was in the late summer into the fall. I don't think he tore the league apart with his play, but was solid (but not spectacular) just like most of the Argo QB play that season. Of course, Barrett will probably be remembered as a Stampeder I guess for the Grey Cup berth in 1991. Remember that he threw for nearly 400 yards in that game against the Argos, but his undoing was 3 interceptions.

Craig Ellis had a cup of coffee with the Argos in 1986 and 1993. He became a fine receiver with Edmonton in the early 1990's, but didn't stick around long after being involved in the Tracy Ham deal.

[Will]

Glenn Harper punted in the CFL for quite awhile and punted for the Argos when Hank Ilesic was in the NFL. I don't know if he's an all-time great punter in the CFL but he'll likely be remembered as an Eskimo and not an Argo.

[Will]

Hank Ilesic won 5 Grey Cups in a row with the Eskimos, but because he kicked/punted for the Argos he'll probably be remembered as such.

Keith Baker came to Toronto in 1986 but will be known more as a Tiger-Cat.

We could do this for a long time.

[jerrym]

Tracy Ham whose very forgettable 3-15 season with the Argos (unless you're a masochist), was the exception to a career where he ran for over 8,000 yards (second all-time to Damon among QBs), passed for over 40,000 yards, became the first QB to rush for 1,000 yards in a season, won Grey Cups in Edmonton and Baltimore, and helped develop Calvillo.

[Will]

I'm not sure how much credit would be given to Ham for developing Calvillo because they were polar opposites as QB. Credit would probably go to the coaching staff in Montreal at the time.

[1971GreyCup]

Cookie Gilchrist, although a trifle before my time, spent three years of his 6 years in the CFL as an Argo. He also spent three of his 5 years in the AFL with Buffalo Bills. I understood from my father that was electric! An all star in both the CFL and AFL.

[ArgoGabe22]

Cookie Gilchrist, although a trifle before my time, spent three years of his 6 years in the CFL as an Argo. He also spent three of his 5 years in the AFL with Buffalo Bills. I understood from my father that was electric! An all star in both the CFL and AFL.

And still held a grudge against the league/team until his death. IIRC he only made it into the CFL HOF after his sons finally accepted the invite after their father's death, since he refused.

What's interesting with Cookie, he will always be remembered as a Bill so his impressive CFL career is probably forgotten entirely. Cookie was a big bruising running back who always fought for yards so I heard after the Bills traded him to Denver, on the first game without Gilchrist his replacement ran out of the bounds and all the Bills fan booed him.

[doubleblue]

Cookie Gilchrist, although a trifle before my time, spent three years of his 6 years in the CFL as an Argo. He also spent three of his 5 years in the AFL with Buffalo Bills. I understood from my father that was electric! An all star in both the CFL and AFL.

Think Jerome Messam, only running against much smaller D-Linemen and LBers then. Cookie might have been a bit faster than Messam, as they didn't time everybody back in those days. Jim Brown and then Cookie were the best big running backs of that era in pro football, maybe all time.
I always remember one play when the Argos were playing the Chicago Cardinals. Cookie ran off right tackle for a big gain and left half a dozen Cardinals laying on the turf. He ran right through their tackles or over them. I think they were more surprised than hurt. But Cookie was one of kind for sure in his era.

[jerrym]

I'm not sure how much credit would be given to Ham for developing Calvillo because they were polar opposites as QB. Credit would probably go to the coaching staff in Montreal at the time.

When I saw Calvillo in his early first season with Las Vegas I thought he was going to be a star soon. He lost his confidence over time. By initially being Ham's backup, and watching a guy who had been severely maligned after his Argo year, Calvillo had tine to develop without the immediate pressure of being first string and to learn from someone whose career had went south for a while. I remember Calvillo even saying so.

[jerrym]

While I would only classify Chuck Ealey as a good (not great QB), his success inspired many other Black QBs to try the CFL. IMO, he will be remembered more as a Tiger Cat because he won a Grey Cup with them in his rookie year, while his Argo years were in their mostly forlorn late 1970s.

[ArgoRavi]

When I saw Calvillo in his early first season with Las Vegas I thought he was going to be a star soon. He lost his confidence over time. By initially being Ham's backup, and watching a guy who had been severely maligned after his Argo year, Calvillo had tine to develop without the immediate pressure of being first string and to learn from someone whose career had went south for a while. I remember Calvillo even saying so.

Yes, a QB who has the skills and potential but has lot his confidence can certainly learn a lot from an accomplished veteran QB on the same roster.

[jerrym]

Not all greats, but most All Stars;

Patrick Watkins, Brian Ramsay, Nick Bastaja, Neil Lumsden, Steve Morley, Sir Vincent Rogers, Terry Evanshan, ML Harris, Tony Washington, Angus Reid, Dan Federkeil, Otha Foster, Zac Henderson, Lin J Shell, John Chiles, Darvin Adams, Julian Feoli-Gudino, Franklin King, Leroy Blugh, Dwight Anderson, Terrell Sinkfield, Alex Suber, Aston Whiteside, Ken McEachern

Julian Feoli-Gudino - great CFLer??? good ??

[jerrym]

Kevin Glenn was an Argo but if you blinked you missed it as the Argos traded him to the Bombers the same day they got him from the Riders. He actually holds the record for most CFL teams that owned him - eight.



His resume takes up more than half a page in the CFL Guide and Record Book, and includes stats for six different teams over 16 seasons. But he's been with eight teams.
That's a CFL record.
“I've been affiliated with every team except Edmonton,” he said.
Twice Glenn joined teams only to be traded before their first game: the Argos traded him to Winnipeg the same day they acquired him from the Riders in '04, and Ottawa traded him soon after taking him in the 2013 expansion draft.

http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Football/CFL/Winnipeg/2016/09/13/22666640.html
(http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Football/CFL/Winnipeg/2016/09/13/22666640.html)

I know quite a few posters here are not Kevin Glenn fans and for me falls in the good but not great category, but he is ranked seventh in CFL passing yards all-time, with 48,782 yards.
http://thestudyofsports.com/cflalltimeleaders.html

[AngeloV]

Not all greats, but most All Stars;

Patrick Watkins, Brian Ramsay, Nick Bastaja, Neil Lumsden, Steve Morley, Sir Vincent Rogers, Terry Evanshan, ML Harris, Tony Washington, Angus Reid, Dan Federkeil, Otha Foster, Zac Henderson, Lin J Shell, John Chiles, Darvin Adams, Julian Feoli-Gudino, Franklin King, Leroy Blugh, Dwight Anderson, Terrell Sinkfield, Alex Suber, Aston Whiteside, Ken McEachern

Zac Henderson is a bad example, as his only dominant season was as an Argo, so he would likely be best remembered as an Argo. Same applies to Franklin King, and John Chiles. In what universe was Steve Morley an all star calibre player? He was a #1 overall flop, that only lasted in the league because at the time, the Bombers for years had the worst Canadian talent in the league. A real stretch also to include back ups like Feoli-Gudino.

[gilthethrill]

The late David Boone finished up in Toronto after winning 5 consecutive Grey Cups with Edmonton.

[argos1873]

I always remember one play when the Argos were playing the Chicago Cardinals. Cookie ran off right tackle for a big gain and left half a dozen Cardinals laying on the turf. He ran right through their tackles or over them. I think they were more surprised than hurt. But Cookie was one of kind for sure in his era.

From what I've read of that game he would have been the only Argo to be able to over power any of the Cardinals linemen as both sides of the Argos line were completely outsized by their NFL counterparts and from all accounts were the reason the Argos were outclassed in their 3 matchups against NFL opponents. The rest of the talent probably matched up fairly evenly. I wish there was footage of one of those games available.

[jerrym]

What a lot of people also forget was that Cookie was a great two-way player.



Cookie Gilchrist was one of the best two way players in the history of the CFL. He was a big bruising All-Star fullback and an All-Star linebacker.


http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/g/gilchrist_cookie.htm

[jerrym]

Although i knew there had been contract/discipline problems that resulted in Cookie leaving Argos for Buffalo, I didn't realize that he was under contract until 1965 when he left at the start of 1962, because the whole situation was badly handled by the Argos. How different Argo history might have been if handled better.



Finally, on July 19, a day before the season’s first exhibition game, management caved and Cookie signed a then-unheard-of deal: a five-year contract worth nearly $100,000. The 26-year-old was confident that he’d not only achieved long-term security, but that he’d retire as an Argo. “It half-way secures my future,” Cookie told the Star (July 20, 1961). “I’m an Argonaut now until 1965, as long as I can make the ball club. As for two-way football, I’ll play any way the coach wants me to. I’ll even carry the water bucket if he says so.”
He bristled, however, when late that season Agase relegated him to defensive duty only, in favour of a less talented but white teammate. Cookie saw it as racially motivated. He recalled how, over the course of his career, coaches had subbed in white players, giving them an opportunity to score after Cookie had done the hard work of getting the ball down the field. “Early in my career I did my best to break off long runs for touchdowns,” Cookie wrote in his autobiography, “as I feared that I would be pulled out of the game for a white player once we were within scoring distance.” ...
The inexperienced Agase was certainly not a strong coach, nor well-respected in the locker room. Despite having a backfield consisting of all-time greats Dick Shatto, Cookie Gilchrist, and Dave Mann, Agase insisted on lining up in the pass-oriented shotgun formation nearly every down that season. Moreover, Agase’s thorny personality strained relations with so many players that the season ended—after an anti-climactic playoff loss—with rumours of an impending player revolt.


Blame for the team’s underachievement, however, was directed at Cookie, whose reputation as a troublemaker and malcontent had followed him from Hamilton. There, in the midst of a season when the fullback was named the team MVP, the coach challenged Cookie to a fist fight when he refused to practice through injury. But afterward, it was Cookie who was suspended for insubordination. On another occasion, Tiger-Cats general manager Jake Gaudaur made it seem to the press that Cookie was AWOL from practice when, in fact, he’d been given permission to attend a funeral.
Teams had always looked the other way from Cookie’s hard partying as long as his performance never suffered on game day. But now, in 1961, he was rubbing off on his Argonaut teammates, and the club became known as much for their playboy antics in the Toronto nightlife as their underwhelming performances on the field. Cookie suspected that club management placed stories in the media to cultivate the image of a “big, bad Cookie” stirring up trouble. Cookie, however, thought any perceived discipline problem resulted from his insistence on loudly speaking his mind at a time when black men were expected to defer to authority. “The reason Cookie had this attitude,” the Telegram‘s Bob Frewin is quoted saying in Jay Teitel’s The Argo Bounce (Lester & Orpen Dennys Ltd., 1982), “was that he felt the only reason whites had any interest in him was because of what he could do on the football field. He was probably right.” ...

At the start of the 1962 season, in danger of being fired if he didn’t assert control of his locker, coach Agase introduced strict new rules of conduct, including pre-game and post-game curfews, and accompanying fines ranging from $25 to $1,000. It only took until the team’s pre-season trip to Edmonton before players challenged their coach’s authority. After the Argos were drubbed by the Eskimos on July 25, Cookie and his roommate, receiver Boyd Carter (http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/c/carter_boyd.htm), were spotted by Agase leaving the team’s hotel at 3 a.m., well after the 12:30 a.m. curfew. Gilchrist and Carter were suspended indefinitely by Agase to serve as an example to their peers.
The two were to discuss the matter further back in Toronto on Sunday night. Everyone expected Gilchrist and Carter would be fined and reinstated. The meeting must not have gone well for Cookie because, by noon the next day (July 30), Hayman meted out harsher justice. Claiming that breaking curfew was far from Cookie’s first offence, he placed Cookie on waivers. Carter, on the other hand, paid a fine and rejoined the team—though he would be quietly released later that season. ....

The fullback, however, could enjoy a small measure of vindication when, just three games into a disastrous season, Agase was sacked.


http://torontoist.com/2014/07/historicist-one-tough-cookie/

[jerrym]

Gerry Dattilio didn't make the CFL Hall of Fame but he was the best Canadian CFL QB since the Jackson-Cosentino era. He began his career as an Argo playing 1 game in the 1975 season before heading to the Als where he was good enough to be runner-up for Most Outstanding Player in 1980. One of the major reasons the Argos weren't very good in much of the 1950s 60s and 70s was their poor record in developing Canadian talent.



Dattilio is one of the few Canadian QBs since Russ Jackson to see any signficant action at QB. While Dattilio didn't put up the numbers or garner the awards of Jackson, he had a solid career, with one Eastern All-Star honour, an Outstanding Canadian award and runner-up for Most Outstanding Player in the CFL (all in 1980). Dattilio started his career with Toronto in 1975, but his Argo career was only one game long. Dattilio was actually a territorial exemption of Montreal in 1975, but was on the injured list most of the season before being claimed by Toronto in October. Dattilio was released by Toronto in June of 1976 and he returned to Montreal to begin a six year run with the Alouttes from 1976 to 1981. While he didn't see much action at QB for the first couple of years, Dattilio got his chance in 1980 and threw for 2892 yards and 19 touchdowns with a 57.6% completion rate on his way to his award winning season. The signing of the highly touted and hightly priced Vince Ferregamo in 1981 moved Dattilio to a backup role in 1981. After the 1981 season, Dattilio was traded to Calgary for QB Ken Johnson, LB John Palazetti and LB Frank Kosec. Dattilio was the regular QB in 1982, seting a new personal high of 387 pass attempts for 2788 yards. Dattilio was traded back to Montreal for the 1984 season for DL Lyle Woznesensky and played two more seasons in Montreal (1984-85) as the backup QB.


http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/d/dattilio_gerry.htm

[jerrym]

Another Argo Hall of Famer who is hardly ever mentioned today was the one selected as Canada's greatest athlete of the first half of the twentieth century - Lionel Conacher who is only one of two players to win both the Grey Cup and the Stanley Cup. He played football (his favourite sport) for the Argos, hockey for Pittsburg, New York Americans,Chicago Black Hawks and Montreal Maroons, baseball for the Toronto Maple Leafs of the Triple AAA International Baseball League, lacrosse in the International Professional Lacrosse League and was a professional wrestler. He helped the Argos win the first East-West Grey Cup 23-0 by rushing for 211 yards and scoring 15 points, leaving the game in the third quarter to help his senior hockey team win a trophy. He was considered one of the best defencemen in the NHL. He could also run 100 yards in less than 10 seconds. In addition, Conacher was boxing light heavyweight champion of Canada, going four rounds with World Heavyweight Champion Jack Dempsey in an exhibition. He was a good enough ballplayer that the Detroit Tigers offered him a contract but he couldn't fit it in with all his other sports.



The league played just six regular seasons games in 1921 and Conacher led the Argonauts to a perfect record of six wins, scoring 14 touchdowns and 85 points to lead the league in scoring. ....
The 1921 Grey Cup contest, the first east/west game in Canadian football history (the league was named the Dominion Rugby Football League at the time) saw the west represented by the Edmonton Eskimos with the Argonauts representing the east. Toronto defeated Edmonton 23-0, with Lionel scoring 15 of the points -- two touchdowns, a field goal drop-kick and two single points. Incredibly, he left the championship game after the third quarter in order to help his Aura Lee senior hockey team defeat the Toronto Granites for the Sportsman's Athletic Association Trophy that same night.
The Argonauts went undefeated again in 1922, winning five and tying one. Conacher, the newly-named captain and nicknamed 'The Big Train,' rushed for 950 yards in the six game season, including a game against Ottawa in which he carried the ball for 215 yards. Uncharacteristically, Lionel fumbled seven times in the Eastern Final against Queen's, and the Argos lost 12-11.During 1922, Lionel also starred for the Toronto Maitlands, a club that took the Ontario Amateur Lacrosse Championship that year. ...
Conacher was savvy enough to realize that sports offered a quick way out of poverty, and with his abilities proven, was ready to expand his horizons. In 1923, Conacher was lured to Pittsburgh, in essence to play football and hockey.

https://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/spot_oneononep199401.shtml



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Conacher

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Conacher)http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/lionel-conacher/

(http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/lionel-conacher/)https://www.historicacanada.ca/content/heritage-minutes/lionel-conacher

[Argo57]

Another Argo Hall of Famer who is hardly ever mentioned today was the one selected as Canada's greatest athlete of the first half of the twentieth century - Lionel Conacher who is only one of two players to win both the Grey Cup and the Stanley Cup. He played football (his favourite sport) for the Argos, hockey for Pittsburg, New York Americans,Chicago Black Hawks and Montreal Maroons, baseball for the Toronto Maple Leafs of the Triple AAA International Baseball League, lacrosse in the International Professional Lacrosse League and was a professional wrestler. He helped the Argos win the first East-West Grey Cup 23-0 by rushing for 211 yards and scoring 15 points, leaving the game in the third quarter to help his senior hockey team win a trophy. He was considered one of the best defencemen in the NHL. He could also run 100 yards in less than 10 seconds. In addition, Conacher was boxing light heavyweight champion of Canada, going four rounds with World Heavyweight Champion Jack Dempsey in an exhibition. He was a good enough ballplayer that the Detroit Tigers offered him a contract but he couldn't fit in with all his other sports.


https://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/spot_oneononep199401.shtml



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Conacher

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Conacher)http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/lionel-conacher/

(http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/lionel-conacher/)https://www.historicacanada.ca/content/heritage-minutes/lionel-conacher

AngeloV is probably the only one that posts here that saw Conacher play live and in person, I will defer to him on this one😛✌️

[AngeloV]

AngeloV is probably the only one that posts here that saw Conacher play live and in person, I will defer to him on this one😛✌️

You know, I may actually be younger than you. I just probably look older because as of late, this forum has really aged me.

:)

[Argo57]

You know, I may actually be younger than you. I just probably look older because as of late, this forum has really aged me.

:)

I guess it's like one dinosaur pushing another dinosaurs buttons!!
Anyday we can discuss and debate Argonaut football is a good day IMO.

[jerrym]

While John Barrow was a Tiger Cat throughout his career, he was Argo GM from 1971 to 1975 and even made it to the Grey Cup in his year with the Argos. He was arguably the top DL of his era, making Eastern All-Star 12 times in 14 years, and for the first four years of his career he was a two way All-Star.

http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/b/barrow_john.htm

[doubleblue]

While John Barrow was a Tiger Cat throughout his career, he was Argo GM from 1971 to 1975 and even made it to the Grey Cup in his year with the Argos. He was arguably the top DL of his era, making Eastern All-Star 12 times in 14 years, and for the first four years of his career he was a two way All-Star.

http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/b/barrow_john.htm

John Barrow was a good one no doubt about that. Not real big by today's standards for a DT at 6'2 250. Would probably be a DE in today's game. I had forgot he was the Argo GM in 1971. Was thinking Sazio.

[ArgoGabe22]

John Barrow was a good one no doubt about that. Not real big by today's standards for a DT at 6'2 250. Would probably be a DE in today's game. I had forgot he was the Argo GM in 1971. Was thinking Sazio.

Sazio's time as Argo can be forgotten.

[C-Mag]

Ricky Williams
Andre Rison
John Avery
Arland Bruce III
Bashir Levingston
Jeff Johnson
Jeff Keeping
Tony Miles
Robert Baker

[jerrym]

Marv Luster played 8 years for the Argos and 6 years for Montreal, becoming a Hall of Famer in the process. However, despite spending more time with the Argos I have more memories of him as an Alouette, likely because he played primarily offence in his early years with the Als before switching to primarily defence with the Argos and because he began and finished his career with the Als.

http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/l/luster_marv.htm

[paulwoods13]

Sazio's time as Argo can be forgotten.

Have to disagree. He made many major mistakes on the business side, and is one of the root causes of the team's slow decline in the marketplace over the past three decades, but he also helped build a team that broke a 31-year Grey Cup drought and was a serious contender in all but two of the eight full years he ran the club (1985 and 1989). He had the good fortune of inheriting a lot of good offensive players and NATs from Willie Wood, but he had to build the defence almost from scratch, and he made a very smart hire in Bob O'Billovich.

[jerrym]

Sazio's time as Argo can be forgotten.


Have to disagree. He made many major mistakes on the business side, and is one of the root causes of the team's slow decline in the marketplace over the past three decades, but he also helped build a team that broke a 31-year Grey Cup drought and was a serious contender in all but two of the eight full years he ran the club (1985 and 1989). He had the good fortune of inheriting a lot of good offensive players and NATs from Willie Wood, but he had to build the defence almost from scratch, and he made a very smart hire in Bob O'Billovich.

I have to agree with Paul that he rebuilt the Argos into a Grey Cup winner after the longest drought in their history but he displayed no marketing skills. His ability to assemble talent and win games was no accident of timing because he was also the winningest coach with the highest winning percentage in Ticat history. He also won 3 Grey Cups there, in addition to having played for the Ticats, so to most CFL fans he will likely be primarily associated with the Ticats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Sazio

[ArgoGabe22]

Have to disagree. He made many major mistakes on the business side, and is one of the root causes of the team's slow decline in the marketplace over the past three decades, but he also helped build a team that broke a 31-year Grey Cup drought and was a serious contender in all but two of the eight full years he ran the club (1985 and 1989). He had the good fortune of inheriting a lot of good offensive players and NATs from Willie Wood, but he had to build the defence almost from scratch, and he made a very smart hire in Bob O'Billovich.

While true, on paper Sazio will always be associated with the Ticats. I think everyone will know him more for his 30 years as a player, coach, GM, President in Hamilton. Only those very knowledgeable will probably give him credit for building the Argos teams in the 80's and maybe others hold a negative opinion of him? Must admit, I'm not sure if he left a bad taste in the mouths of Argos fans at the time or not since I wasn't around but do wonder if Sazio was seen as more of a hero or villain by the time his 9 year Argo stint was over?

[ArgoRavi]

Another thing that Sazio should certainly be given credit for is recruiting Pinball Clemons to Toronto.

[jerrym]

Dave Raimey is another Argo who is more likely to be remembered for playing for another team despite making the CFL Hall of Fame and spending five years and part of another with Toronto. In Winnipeg for four years and a fraction, he was a triple threat RB rushing twice for more than 1,000 yards, catching up to 930 yards in a season, and twice leading the West in kickoff returns. As a RB with the Argos he twice rushed for over 800 yards, but never was used as a receiver or returner to anywhere near the same extent as in Winnipeg. In addition, when Leon McQuay arrived in 1971, he was switched to DB as the Argos also had Bill Symons. Although a capable DB, he never shone there the way he did as a RB, so CFL fans are much likely to visualize him as a Bomber.

http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/r/raimey_dave.htm

[argos1873]

How about Robert Drummond? Even though he played a role in the Argos 96 and 97 Grey Cup wins, I still think of him as a Baltimore Colt/CFLer/Stallion.

[AngeloV]

How about Robert Drummond? Even though he played a role in the Argos 96 and 97 Grey Cup wins, I still think of him as a Baltimore Colt/CFLer/Stallion.

I think you have it backwards. He was a role player as a Baltimore Stallion, and the feature back with the Argos. It was with the Argos and later BC that his career took off.

[jerrym]

How about Robert Drummond? Even though he played a role in the Argos 96 and 97 Grey Cup wins, I still think of him as a Baltimore Colt/CFLer/Stallion.


I think you have it backwards. He was a role player as a Baltimore Stallion, and the feature back with the Argos. It was with the Argos and later BC that his career took off.

Drummond certainly had two great years rushing for over 900 yards and over 1100 yards and winning two Grey Cups with the Argos, while he played relatively little with Baltimore. However, he then played four years for the Lions, where he had his best rushing season (over 1300 yards) before returning to the Argos for one more year. I suspect many CFL fans are split on where they remember him playing most - BC or Toronto, especially if they come from those two cities.

http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/d/drummond_robert.htm

[argos1873]

I think you have it backwards. He was a role player as a Baltimore Stallion, and the feature back with the Argos. It was with the Argos and later BC that his career took off.

You are right, but for some reason I remember him primarily as a Stallion. He was behind Pringle, so for sure he wasn't the feature back for them. Just my own memory playing tricks on me. I didn't look up the stats before I posted. My bad.

[ArgoRavi]

You are right, but for some reason I remember him primarily as a Stallion. He was behind Pringle, so for sure he wasn't the feature back for them. Just my own memory playing tricks on me. I didn't look up the stats before I posted. My bad.

IIRC, Drummond had to replace Pringle for an East Division playoff game against the Argos in 1994 so perhaps that is why you remember him more as a Baltimore player.

[jerrym]

Russ Jackson will obviously never be remembered as an Argo HC because his playing career with Ottawa made him the greatest Canadian player in league history, while his two years with the Argos were both losing seasons that Argo fans are not at all keen to remember. What I do remember about him that regardless of how bad things got with the Argos he never showed his frustration with the public. A gentleman, as always to the end.

[Will]

Ricky Williams
Andre Rison
John Avery
Arland Bruce III
Bashir Levingston
Jeff Johnson
Jeff Keeping
Tony Miles
Robert Baker

I don't understand some of the names here--how is Jeff Johnson not going to be remembered as an Argo?

[paulwoods13]

I don't understand some of the names here--how is Jeff Johnson not going to be remembered as an Argo?

Almost none of those make sense, actually. Williams and Rison will be remembered as NFL players, but played only for the Argos in the CFL. Avery played for the Eskimos first (after XFL) but won a Grey Cup with the Argos. Levingston and Baker played only for the Argos, I believe. Johnson and Keeping played almost their entire careers in Toronto. Miles played for Hamilton but will be remembered more for being an Argo.

[gilthethrill]

Steve Stapler!

[jerrym]

Bob Swift played five years for the Argos as a centre and seven years with Winnipeg. However, he is most remembered as being only the fourth Canadian to rush for 1,000 yards in 1964 with BC in one of his two seasons there. Even today only nine Canadians have rushed for 1,000 yards in the CFL. He is also remembered for breaking his leg as a Lion in the 1964 Grey Cup leading to one of the biggest position shifts in CFL history from fullback to centre.

http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/s/swift_bob.htm

[jerrym]

While Dave Thelen played two years for the Argos (1965-1966) at the end of his career and is still ranked tenth in all-time rushing CFL stats, he is most remembered as an Ottawa Rough Rider.



The greatest and most destructive power fullback in the history of the Ottawa Rough Riders. Six times a CFL all-star. Several times the league’s leading rusher with 1000-yard plus seasons. Thirty 100-yard plus games. A Schenley nomination as the league’s Most Outstanding Player. Six seasons with the Riders followed by two with the Argos. Induction into the Canadian Football Hall Of Fame in 1989.


http://cfl-scrapbook.no-ip.org/Thelen.Dave.php

[argos1873]

IIRC, Drummond had to replace Pringle for an East Division playoff game against the Argos in 1994 so perhaps that is why you remember him more as a Baltimore player.

If I'm not mistaken Drummond played a heck of a game and played a key role in beating the Argos. Again only going from memory here, so forgive me if I'm wrong.

[AngeloV]

If I'm not mistaken Drummond played a heck of a game and played a key role in beating the Argos. Again only going from memory here, so forgive me if I'm wrong.

Your memory here is 100% correct.

[jerrym]

Pierre Vercheval was a dominant OL who played from 1988 to 2001 becoming CFL All-Star once with Edmonton in five years, twice with Toronto in five years and three times in a row in four years, as well winning Outstanding Offensive Lineman with Montreal. His highest level of recognition as a top OL and his French Canadian background make him most likely to be remembered in the hometown of the Alouettes.

http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/v/vercheval_pierre.htm

[jerrym]

While Frank Clair coached the Argos to two Grey Cups in five years, those who do remember him nearly always picture him with Ottawa where he won three Grey Cups, lost one, and only finished worse than second twice and never finished last in fourteen years, a period during which the Argos were the bottom feeders of the league. At the time he retired, Clair was the winningest coach in CFL history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Clair

[argos1873]

While Frank Clair coached the Argos to two Grey Cups in five years, those who do remember him nearly always picture him with Ottawa where he won three Grey Cups, lost one, and only finished worse than second twice and never finished last in fourteen years, a period during which the Argos were the bottom feeders of the league. At the time he retired, Clair was the winningest coach in CFL history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Clair

True enough, they named the stadium after him in Ottawa.

[jerrym]

Annis Stukus made the CFL Hall of Fame because of his play with the Argos from 1935 to 1941, where he was one of the best QBs in the league. However, on the West Coast he is remembered as the first head coach and GM of the BC Lions where he could always generate interest with his mouth, after doing the same jobs with Edmonton Eskimos. The CFL Coach of the Year is named after him. I also remember him as colour commentator on CFL broadcasts in the 1960s. He was also a GM of the minor league Vancouver Canucks and of the WHA Winnipeg Jets. His communication skills in the form of stories and jokes kept him on as a guest on many radio broadcasts of the Lions until near his death in 2006, so he is probably more remembered in BC than Toronto.

http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/s/stukus_annis.htm
(http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/s/stukus_annis.htm)



He played for the Toronto Argonauts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Argonauts) from 1935 to 1941, leading the team to Grey Cup (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Cup) victories in 1937 and 1938 (playing 45 regular season and 14 playoff games.)[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annis_Stukus#cite_note-1) He then played for the Oakwood Indians (1942), Balmy Beach (1943), HMCS York Bulldogs (1944) and the Toronto Indians (1945, 1946), all Toronto-based teams.
Stukus was a consultant to the Toronto Huskies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Huskies) basketball team in its one season of operations in 1946–47 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946%E2%80%9347_Toronto_Huskies_season).
In 1949, he helped organize the Edmonton Eskimos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_Eskimos)' reentry into the Western Interprovincial Football Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Interprovincial_Football_Union) and served as their head coach for three seasons. In 1953, he turned his services to the expansion BC Lions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BC_Lions), serving as head coach and general manager.
In 1967, he was general manager of the Vancouver Canucks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver_Canucks) of the minor pro Western Hockey League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hockey_League_(minor_pro)). In 1971, Stukus became general manager of the Winnipeg Jets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Jets_(1972%E2%80%9396)) of the World Hockey Association (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Hockey_Association) and signed Bobby Hull (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Hull) to 10-year contract, with an unprecedented $1 million signing bonus. In 1974, he worked in the front office of the Vancouver Whitecaps (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver_Whitecaps_(NASL)) soccer team.
The CFL's annual award for coach of the year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annis_Stukus_Trophy) is named in his honour. He was elected into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Football_Hall_of_Fame) and the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Sports_Hall_of_Fame).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annis_Stukus

[jerrym]

Bill Frank is another Hall of Famer who played much longer for another team. After three years with BC, Frank played four years in Toronto, before finishing with eight years in Winnipeg. So he is most likely to be remembered as a Bomber.



Bill Frank was an outstanding offensive tackle. Frank won seven division and seven CFL (All-Canadian) All-Star honours (1966, 1967, 1968, 1970, 1971, 1972 and 1973). The only year Frank missed in that period of eight years was 1969 when injuries limited him to just four games. The Outstanding Offensive Lineman award was not introduced until 1974, or Frank would likely have won a couple of those as well. After playing his college ball at Colorado, Frank joined the BC Lions in 1962. Frank lasted in BC until partway through 1964 when he ran into some prbblems with the law (drinking and driving) and breaking curfew which got him dumped from the team in the year that the Lions went on to win their first Grey Cup. Frank was traded by the Lions to the Dallas Cowboys of the NFL (Frank had been drafted by Dallas in the 18th round of the 1963 draft) for halfback Amon Bulloochs and a player to be named later. Frank played four games for Dallas in 1964. Frank returned to the CFL in 1965 and played four seasons for he Argos from 1965 to 1968. In 1969, Frank moved to Winnipeg and eight years for the Bombers from 1969 to 1976.


http://www.cflapedia.com/Players/f/frank_bill.htm

[Tobin Rote]

So many great names posted in this threat (plus a few questionable ones)... brings back a lot of memories. The one that always registers with me is Chuck Ealey... I can remember how odd it seemed to be bringing a starting QB over from our staunch rivals in Hamilton. Someone else beat me to that name... so I will throw in Joe Barnes instead.

[jerrym]

Another highly skilled former player who is not often remembered as an Argo is Red Storey, who is in the Hockey Hall of Fame as a referee. However, he set a record by scoring three TDs in 12 minutes in the Argos 1938 Grey Cup victory.



Storey was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_Hall_of_Fame) (1967) and Canada's Sports Hall of Fame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_Sports_Hall_of_Fame) (1986) and was made a Member of the Order of Canada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Canada) in 1991. He was also inducted into the Ontario Sports Hall of Fame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Sports_Hall_of_Fame) in 2001.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Storey




Storey was working in a rail yard when he received an offer to play football with the Toronto Argonauts. He was on the team for six seasons from 1936 to 1941, winning the Grey Cup in 1937 and 1938. In the 1938 Grey Cup, Storey scored three touchdowns in twelve minutes (all in the fourth quarter) of the 1938 game to give the Argos the victory. After his performance, he received offers from the New York Giants and the Chicago Bears of the National Football League, but he declined. He was forced to retire after suffering a knee injury. At the same time he was playing football, Storey was also playing competitive lacrosse. In the Ontario Lacrosse Association, he played for Orillia and was an all-star with the Hamilton Tigers in 1941. Storey was also a prominent senior men's baseball player and received an offer from the Philadelphia Athletics of the American League.
As a defenceman, he played hockey in New Jersey for the Rivervale Skeeters in 1941. Storey then moved to Montreal and joined the Montreal Royals late in the 1941–42 season. He played lacrosse for Lachine in 1942 and 1943. He later joined the Montreal Canadiens lacrosse team, and was playing there in 1946.

Storey became an NHL referee in 1950 and worked in the league until 1959. On April 4, 1959, he was officiating a playoff game between the Montreal Canadiens and the Chicago Black Hawks, which Montreal won—along with the series—scoring the winning goal with 88 seconds left in the sixth game. Chicago fans nearly rioted, and Black Hawks coach Rudy Pilous accused Storey of choking by not calling penalties against the Canadiens late in the game. Storey was scheduled to referee the final game in the series between the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Boston Bruins, but when an Ottawa newspaper reported that NHL president Clarence Campbell said that Storey had "frozen" on two calls that should have been penalties against the Canadiens, Storey immediately resigned. He never returned to the NHL. His career included 480 regular season games and seven consecutive Stanley Cup finals from 1952 through 1958.
He was popular with NHL players because he talked with them. Gump Worsley said of Storey in his autobiography They Call Me Gump: "When Red Storey was refereeing in the NHL, I used to ask him where he was going to get a beer after the game. He usually told me, too."
Following his retirement from the NHL, Storey remained active in oldtimers' games, worked as a TV commentator, and was a popular raconteur.


http://oshof.ca/index.php/honoured-members/item/69-red-storey

[argoscott]

as for best QB to ever play in the CFL...there are no right or wrong answers, Flutie and Parker certainly belong on the list, some would say Dunigan, some might say Tom Clements etc etc

Flutie is a favorite of mine, I was never a NFL fan but in 1998 onwards I followed Doug Fluties every move until he retired as a Patriot, Bills would have won the SB in either 98,99 or 2000 if Rob Johnson was never brought in. Bills under Flutie might well have won it all in 1998 if he had been the undisputed starter from the getgo. I still have nightmares from when Bills announced that Flutie was benched in 1999 for Johnson... was sick about that, imagine how Flutie felt

I am a CFL fan, only watched NFL because of Flutie...though I glance at the NFL playoffs now, that`s about it

[AngeloV]

as for best QB to ever play in the CFL...there are no right or wrong answers, Flutie and Parker certainly belong on the list, some would say Dunigan, some might say Tom Clements etc etc

Flutie is a favorite of mine, I was never a NFL fan but in 1998 onwards I followed Doug Fluties every move until he retired as a Patriot, Bills would have won the SB in either 98,99 or 2000 if Rob Johnson was never brought in. Bills under Flutie might well have won it all in 1998 if he had been the undisputed starter from the getgo. I still have nightmares from when Bills announced that Flutie was benched in 1999 for Johnson... was sick about that, imagine how Flutie felt

I am a CFL fan, only watched NFL because of Flutie...though I glance at the NFL playoffs now, that`s about it

Flutie to me is the best I've ever seen to play in the CFL, with Moon a close 2nd. Never saw Parker, Russ Jackson or many of the others pre mid 70's, so I can't really comment on them.

[doubleblue]

Flutie to me is the best I've ever seen to play in the CFL, with Moon a close 2nd. Never saw Parker, Russ Jackson or many of the others pre mid 70's, so I can't really comment on them.

Flutie is the best ever CFL type QB IMO. Moon the best NFL type. Jackson was very good in the CFL and probably could have been very good in the NFL at that time. Parker was a great runner average passer, maybe comparable to Damon Allen IMO. Dunnigan was better than Clements IMO.

[R.J]

Flutie to me is not only the greatest QB in CFL history, but the best player to have ever stepped foot in a CFL stadium. I've never seen someone dominate the CFL the way Flutie did, but admittedly I've never seen guys like Parker, Moon, Kwong, Mosca etc play.

[Argo57]

Flutie to me is not only the greatest QB in CFL history, but the best player to have ever stepped foot in a CFL stadium. I've never seen someone dominate the CFL the way Flutie did, but admittedly I've never seen guys like Parker, Moon, Kwong, Mosca etc play.

Agreed, master of the improv and made magic out of many broken plays.
Always looked like a guy who simply loved playing football, to bad he didn't hang around another 2-3 years.

[ArgoZ]

as for best QB to ever play in the CFL...there are no right or wrong answers, Flutie and Parker certainly belong on the list, some would say Dunigan, some might say Tom Clements etc etc

Flutie is a favorite of mine, I was never a NFL fan but in 1998 onwards I followed Doug Fluties every move until he retired as a Patriot, Bills would have won the SB in either 98,99 or 2000 if Rob Johnson was never brought in. Bills under Flutie might well have won it all in 1998 if he had been the undisputed starter from the getgo. I still have nightmares from when Bills announced that Flutie was benched in 1999 for Johnson... was sick about that, imagine how Flutie felt

I am a CFL fan, only watched NFL because of Flutie...though I glance at the NFL playoffs now, that`s about it

I too share those great memories from that time. Some if the most exciting football I have ever witnessed, both live and on TV was those two Bills years. I'm not going to give all credit to Flutie, but since that time (maybe just coincidence) the NFL has noticably changed to a more CFL like game with multiple reciever sets, more mobile and exciting QB's and some throwing for over 40 times a game.