Argonauts looking to make a splash with NFL name for open GM spot

[Neely2005]

Argonauts looking to make a splash with NFL name for open GM spot:

http://3downnation.com/2017/02/02/argos-looking-nfl-names-open-gm-spot/

[Wobbler]

I thought that since this is important, interesting, and comes from a good source that it deserved a new thread.

[RB957]

Chris Rosetti is too young, and it would be too big a jump to go straight to GM, IMO. Tom Clements is a known factor. I am not crazy about the others.... why this fixation on the NFL all of a sudden, like that is the panacea we are looking for?

[Neely2005]

Chris Rosetti is too young, and it would be too big a jump to go straight to GM, IMO. Tom Clements is a known factor. I am not crazy about the others.... why this fixation on the NFL all of a sudden, like that is the panacea we are looking for?

Can't talk to anyone who is currently under contract with a CFL team as the January 31st deadline has passed.

[R.J]

Disappointing to say the least. If the only thing Copeland and ownership care about is NFL experience, then maybe Rex Ryan actually should get a call. At least the media would be all over him and give the team more coverage.

[gilthethrill]

I thought that since this is important, interesting, and comes from a good source that it deserved a new thread.

C'Mon Wobbler...there isn't a thread on this forum that isn't important and interesting! :)

[Argo57]

Outside of Chris Rossetti not sure how any of these candidates should be considered ahead of guys like (Sunderland, Burke and Murphy) other than the fact the Argos waited to long to move on any of them.
My gut tells me Copeland's fixation with getting an NFL type isn't going to end well.

[AngeloV]

C'Mon Wobbler...there isn't a thread on this forum that isn't important and interesting! :)

Wana bet?

[Wobbler]

C'Mon Wobbler...there isn't a thread on this forum that isn't important and interesting! :)
Oh yeah. Somehow I forgot. ;)

I don't have a strong opinion about any of these candidates but a clean house *is* the appropriate time for radical change. So let's get radical, dudes!

[ArgoGabe22]

Damon Allen threw his name as a coaching candidate in an interview. Not sure if he was being serious but no thanks. 53 years old with zero coaching experience. Also had no interest in starting out as a positions coach.

[argoscott]

Argonauts looking to make a splash with NFL name for open GM spot:

http://3downnation.com/2017/02/02/argos-looking-nfl-names-open-gm-spot/


Thank you for posting this. Yes I am the guy that posted the fake story about Clements coming to Toronto and it being a done deal. I wanted it so badly I thought I would help it along with a little fun.

But here I just came from 3 down Nation, was going to post myself, and to my delight they are suggesting Clements is a real possibility even 1st choice.

According to the source it sounds like Argos have spoken to Clements, because they report that he is only interested in being GM and HC... perfect what is the problem with that? Probably the only way we could afford him is to give him both jobs, keep in mind he is also a Lawyer

Tom Clements as HC/GM would blow peoples doors off, Clements played in the glory days.. Clements to Gabriel etc.. One of the best QB`s to ever play in the CFL and he had killer looks to boot, maybe he will put some ladies in the seats

Are my prayers about to be answered? The rest on the 3down nation list would all be terrible, the one guy that was born in Toronto, so the seats will be filled because he was from Toronto, and he is only a player personal guy or something

Please hire Clements

Many of you are perhaps to young to be able to appreciate just how great a QB Clements was, there is an argument along with others that he is the best ever

[argoscott]

Outside of Chris Rossetti not sure how any of these candidates should be considered ahead of guys like (Sunderland, Burke and Murphy) other than the fact the Argos waited to long to move on any of them.
My gut tells me Copeland's fixation with getting an NFL type isn't going to end well.

I would absolutely agree with you, but Tom Clements played his entire Hall of Fame Pro Career in the CFL and knows the Canadian game inside and out

[argoscott]

Disappointing to say the least. If the only thing Copeland and ownership care about is NFL experience, then maybe Rex Ryan actually should get a call. At least the media would be all over him and give the team more coverage.

You make it sound like you never heard of the Great Hall of Fame CFL QB Tom Clements who played in the CFL FROM 1975-1987 knows the Canadian game inside and out

Rookie of the year in his first year 1975, won 2 Grey Cups,

CFL Most Outstanding Player (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFL%27s_Most_Outstanding_Player_Award) (1987) many awards, threw for over 39,000 yards, over his career completed over 60% of his passes, keep in mind they only played 14 and 16 game seasons in his career. Today with rule changes the old records are being broken but there needs to be footnotes for these changes and the 18 games a season
There is an argument to include Tom Clements name as the best ever QB

Clements would be a huge deal, a 2nd chance after blowing the first year in the new stadium, really no risk at all to hire Clements..believe me I know of what I speak. Ask the guys like Wally and OB and Hugh Campbell and Don Matthews and Huff if Tom Clements could be considered as the best QB to ever play in the CFL, they would not laugh and would say absolutely his name could be mentioned in that regard



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[Wobbler]

...believe me I know of what I speak.
Since you're an admitted liar, that's asking a lot.

[Neely2005]

Outside of Chris Rossetti not sure how any of these candidates should be considered ahead of guys like (Sunderland, Burke and Murphy) other than the fact the Argos waited to long to move on any of them.
My gut tells me Copeland's fixation with getting an NFL type isn't going to end well.

NFL types or unemployed CFL types are all he can talk to now since he's waited so long.

[Neely2005]

Since you're an admitted liar, that's asking a lot.

Just because he was wrong doesn't mean that he was lying. He admitted that he was wrong which is more than most will do and he could still end up being right on the hire and late on the timing.

[paulwoods13]

Just because he was wrong doesn't mean that he was lying. He admitted that he was wrong which is more than most will do and he could still end up being right on the hire and late on the timing.

Really? How do you interpret this:

"Yes I am the guy that posted the fake story about Clements coming to Toronto and it being a done deal. I wanted it so badly I thought I would help it along with a little fun."

Sounds to me like he made it up. In other words, what he "reported" was not true. Not "wrong" -- deliberately untrue.

[Will]

Damon Allen threw his name as a coaching candidate in an interview. Not sure if he was being serious but no thanks. 53 years old with zero coaching experience. Also had no interest in starting out as a positions coach.

I don't know if Damon has the personality to be a good coach.

[AngeloV]

I would absolutely agree with you, but Tom Clements played his entire Hall of Fame Pro Career in the CFL and knows the Canadian game inside and out

You really should educate yourself and watch some film from when he played to see how different the game is now compared to then. Being away for the last 30 years, somehow I also doubt that he has any knowledge of the CIS (U-sports). Remember, roughly half the roster consists of Canadian players.

[AngeloV]

Really? How do you interpret this:

"Yes I am the guy that posted the fake story about Clements coming to Toronto and it being a done deal. I wanted it so badly I thought I would help it along with a little fun."

Sounds to me like he made it up. In other words, what he "reported" was not true. Not "wrong" -- deliberately untrue.

Paul, you obviously don't have your inner George Costanza on here. "If YOU believe it, then it's not a lie."

[Neely2005]

Really? How do you interpret this:

"Yes I am the guy that posted the fake story about Clements coming to Toronto and it being a done deal. I wanted it so badly I thought I would help it along with a little fun."

Sounds to me like he made it up. In other words, what he "reported" was not true. Not "wrong" -- deliberately untrue.

He also said that was what he was told from a source. So if that's the case he's not lying he's sharing the information that he was told.

[argotom]

As much as we like Clements from his days in the CFL, he has been removed way too long to be a GM candidate.
A HC on the other hand well there is no statue of limitation as Marc Trestman has proved otherwise with no Canadian experience.
The sad part is Copeland taking many months and if correct this is the best he can do?

[argoscott]

Since you're an admitted liar, that's asking a lot.

get a sense of humor

[argoscott]

[QUOTE=argotom;105455]As much as we like Clements from his days in the CFL, he has been removed way too long to be a GM candidate.

to me that is just plain silly

[argoscott]

He also said that was what he was told from a source. So if that's the case he's not lying he's sharing the information that he was told.

I remember some years ago when Clements actually applied to Argos and was interviewed . I mentioned to my sister would be great if Tom Clements was available, then a few days later I read a Tweet from I believe a TSN guy, he only reported a few words just stated that Clements parted company with Green Bay to pursue other interests, his tweet was in reference to Argos situation, he just stated INTERESTING, that was it

Then we read reports that they were looking into NFL people, so obviously we know now that Tom Clements name actually came up. Others also posted here and there wouldn`t it be great if we could get Clements, so I guess great minds think alike.

That`s the jist of it from my end, I kind of pushed the narrative in fun in hopes it might happen, but it was not out of thin air, the TSN guy tweet...Interesting in reference to the argos

Hey to people that are getting their shorts in a knot, I only say get a sense of humor, wouldn`t it be great if it actually happened!!!

[paulwoods13]

He also said that was what he was told from a source. So if that's the case he's not lying he's sharing the information that he was told.

Oh, come on. He subsequently said his "source" was "Bubba from Long Island," and subsequent to that said it was "fake news" and he was just having "a little fun" spreading it. He was told nothing of the sort, except maybe by a little voice in his head.

[paulwoods13]

Hey to people that are getting their shorts in a knot, I only say get a sense of humor, wouldn`t it be great if it actually happened!!!

Yeah, fake news is always hilarious.

[paulwoods13]

There is an argument to include Tom Clements name as the best ever QB

This makes you even less credible than citing Bubba as a source did. Better than Flutie, Moon, Parker, Jackson, Calvillo, Allen, Garcia, Lancaster, Ray, Holloway, Brock, Ploen, Dunigan, McManus, Burris? Good luck making that argument.

[gilthethrill]

The only name on that list that interest me in the least is Rosetti as GM. His age (perhaps lack of it) does not concern me in the least. Hard to see him leaving sunny Florida and the NFL though.

I remember seeing Tom Clements #2 jerseys in the Simpson Sears catalogue....when I was 14. I have no doubt he is a bright man but I think the CFL may have changed a bit since he left over 30 years ago.

[argotom]

He also said that was what he was told from a source. So if that's the case he's not lying he's sharing the information that he was told.

Semantics, who really cares?
We are all spit balling here throwing stuff at the wall until something/someone actual comes out from the team.

[paulwoods13]

Semantics, who really cares?
We are all spit balling here throwing stuff at the wall until something/someone actual comes out from the team.

But not all of us are making up fake stories using phoney sources.

[argoscott]

This makes you even less credible than citing Bubba as a source did. Better than Flutie, Moon, Parker, Jackson, Calvillo, Allen, Garcia, Lancaster, Ray, Holloway, Brock, Ploen, Dunigan, McManus, Burris? Good luck making that argument.


This is what I said "There is an argument to include Tom Clements name as the best ever QB" I said to include...I repeat include

And if you dont think his name should be "INCLUDED" then you dont know squat about CFL football


And BTW EFF OFF

[Argo57]

I remember some years ago when Clements actually applied to Argos and was interviewed . I mentioned to my sister would be great if Tom Clements was available, then a few days later I read a Tweet from I believe a TSN guy, he only reported a few words just stated that Clements parted company with Green Bay to pursue other interests, his tweet was in reference to Argos situation, he just stated INTERESTING, that was it

Then we read reports that they were looking into NFL people, so obviously we know now that Tom Clements name actually came up. Others also posted here and there wouldn`t it be great if we could get Clements, so I guess great minds think alike.

That`s the jist of it from my end, I kind of pushed the narrative in fun in hopes it might happen, but it was not out of thin air, the TSN guy tweet...Interesting in reference to the argos

Hey to people that are getting their shorts in a knot, I only say get a sense of humor, wouldn`t it be great if it actually happened!!!

Incorrect, the Argonauts approached Clements to which he declined.
This time around I say no thanks.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/clements-not-keen-on-leaving-nfl-for-argos-1.751611

[AngeloV]

This is what I said "There is an argument to include Tom Clements name as the best ever QB" I said to include...I repeat include

And if you dont think his name should be "INCLUDED" then you dont know squat about CFL football


And BTW EFF OFF

Sorry Dude. Paul has forgotten more about CFL football than you will ever know. Tom Clements is nowhere near a list for a conversation of best ever CFL QB's.

[argos1873]

Sorry Dude. Paul has forgotten more about CFL football than you will ever know. Tom Clements is nowhere near a list for a conversation of best ever CFL QB's.

I don't know. I wouldn't put him in the conversation one of the best QBs ever, but he could be ranked among the best in general. TSN had him in their top 50 CFL players ever back in 2006, albeit last of the QBs who made the list at #47. That being said Calvillo was only an honorable mention at the time, and surely would bump Clements from the list if the list was created today (and without going into detail perhaps a few others would as well). That being said Clements was still a great QB, but not in the list of the elite, but not "nowhere near" the list. Either way, being a great QB doesn't mean you will be a great GM or coach, or waterboy. It means you were a great QB.

[AngeloV]

I don't know. I wouldn't put him in the conversation one of the best QBs ever, but he could be ranked among the best in general. TSN had him in their top 50 CFL players ever back in 2006, albeit last of the QBs who made the list at #47. That being said Calvillo was only an honorable mention at the time, and surely would bump Clements from the list if the list was created today (and without going into detail perhaps a few others would as well). That being said Clements was still a great QB, but not in the list of the elite, but not "nowhere near" the list. Either way, being a great QB doesn't mean you will be a great GM or coach, or waterboy. It means you were a great QB.

Fair comments. I especially agree with the part in bold, but someone doesn't seem to get that.

[argos1873]

Fair comments. I especially agree with the part in bold, but someone doesn't seem to get that.

Exactly, but his ignorance doesn't mean we have to dump on Clements as a QB. I don't know what it is about this board that seems to attract these types with such stubborn wild views of things. My theory is because this board is on the Internet. I could be wrong though...

[argoscott]

Incorrect, the Argonauts approached Clements to which he declined.
This time around I say no thanks.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/clements-not-keen-on-leaving-nfl-for-argos-1.751611

I stand corrected

Perhaps it`s my bad memory, but I am still thinking at one point Clements actually was looking for work with the Argos and possibly other CFL teams and there were no takers. I may be thinking even back before Green Bay, I am not as young as I used to be

btw A article on Fox Sports is trying to sell the idea of NFL Jets going after Clements as OC, so like so many have said there will be just too much interest in Clements in the NFL, however it may not be for HC

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/jets-should-contact-tom-clements-for-offensive-coordinator-position-012817

[argoscott]

Tom Clements was an elite CFL QB, arguably could be considered in the conversation as the best ever.

For you guys to say no does not make it so.

[AngeloV]

Exactly, but his ignorance doesn't mean we have to dump on Clements as a QB. I don't know what it is about this board that seems to attract these types with such stubborn wild views of things. My theory is because this board is on the Internet. I could be wrong though...

Actually, and it is just my opinion which I have mentioned numerous times here in the past, I never thought as highly as Clements as a lot of others did. Granted, I don't think he was a bad QB, just not elite in my opinion. In his prime, he was no better than the 4th best QB in the league (I have him below Moon, Brock and Holloway). In a 9 team league, that's middle third.

[argos1873]

Actually, and it is just my opinion which I have mentioned numerous times here in the past, I never thought as highly as Clements as a lot of others did. Granted, I don't think he was a bad QB, just not elite in my opinion. In his prime, he was no better than the 4th best QB in the league (I have him below Moon, Brock and Holloway). In a 9 team league, that's middle third.

That's cool. No one except argoscott, and those who choose the 87 MOP ever said he was elite. I guess he retired in his prime.

Anyhow, just because there were 3 great QBs in a 9 team league ahead of him, doesn't mean he wasn't great.

[Wobbler]

get a sense of humor
Get a sense of being banned for a month, argoscott.

We are starved for information, but accuracy is pretty damned important.

[Gill The Thrill]

I don't know if Damon has the personality to be a good coach.

Based on the time count violation penalties that he seemed to always get as a playing QB, I can't see how being on the sidelines would even see him getting more of that. Players on Offense, D and Special teams moving around all over the place. It can get confusing to follow for someone who's not used to it as a COACH. There is a vast difference between being a player that is part of a moving piece on a sideline with their fellow players and the guy whose in charge of every decision on almost every play in terms of the personnel and the play-calling. Matt Dunigan had a tough time moving into a head coaching position in Calgary with very little to no experience as a position coach or coordinator.

[gilthethrill]

Get a sense of being banned for a month, argoscott.

We are starved for information, but accuracy is pretty damned important.

For further posts by argoscott please follow "slimpickings"on the CFL forum.

[Gill The Thrill]

This makes you even less credible than citing Bubba as a source did. Better than Flutie, Moon, Parker, Jackson, Calvillo, Allen, Garcia, Lancaster, Ray, Holloway, Brock, Ploen, Dunigan, McManus, Burris? Good luck making that argument.Are you kidding, you're opinions are totally biased...Clements was better than Ray, Holloway and Brock, and arguably as good as any on that list. He was a pioneer of the passing revolution in the CFL when QBs with good seasons were passing for 2000-2500 yds, and Clements raised that bar. You must not be a big George Brancato fan or Ron Lancaster fan as a coach because they preferred Clements to Holloway hands down when they respectively coached in Ottawa and Saskatchewan. Garcia didn't also spend enough time in the CFL to be compared to Clements consistency. To say that Brock and Holloway were hands down better is just plain wrong. Ricky Ray can't even last a season in his last 5 years in the ever-so dainty world of protecting QB's in modern day football, he would've retired long ago had he played from the mid 70s to the late 80s like Clements did and his numbers would be nowhere to what they were in his era.


As much as we like Clements from his days in the CFL, he has been removed way too long to be a GM candidate.
I parsed the wrong quote, but was it you that said the league has changed so much over the last 30 years...ya, it has. It could be argued that the quality of play is lower in today's CFL, based on all the pro leagues around today, the arena league, 32 NFL teams and the number of players that prefer to stay on an NFL practice roster for the money, rather than play in the CFL, which is what they would've chosen to do in the late 70s and early 80s because the salaries between the two leagues wasn't as wide as it is today.


Sorry Dude. Paul has forgotten more about CFL football than you will ever know. Tom Clements is nowhere near a list for a conversation of best ever CFL QB's. Just curious, in a tongue and cheek kind of way, do you guys write love letters to each other as well?...you're comments just sounds too choreographed. Do you 2 guys ever have a differing opinion? Are you the same person?

In most circles of people who've watched the CFL over the last 40-50 yrs. Tom Clements definitely deserves to be on a list of best QB's ever. He could've played another 5 years and padded his numbers which are still very good, but left on his own accord. How many guys retire after an MOP season, not an MOP game, but a season. To suggest that he's nowhere near as good as Holloway and Brock is laughable, as he usually beat them head-to-head, and I'm an Argo fan. Brock had good teams in the Peg, but could never get to a Grey Cup game, let alone win one. Clements in his 2nd year with Winnipeg after he was traded for Brock, got there and won it...as a 2nd place team in the division as the Bombers were in '84. That fact alone I think shows how overvalued your football opinion may be.

Look we all have pride about our own opinions, but if you're really comfortable with yourself, you wouldn't disparage another poster's opinions no matter how much you disagreed with them...there's lots of words you could be called, but I'll let you figure that out...you sure write like you know everything and that your opinion is the only one that matters.

No wonder why I miss some posters who don't come on here as much, you've chased them away.

[paulwoods13]

Tom Clements was an elite CFL QB, arguably could be considered in the conversation as the best ever.

For you guys to say no does not make it so.

There's little point arguing with someone who's been banned but you have again suggested he be considered as the best ever, not one of the best ever. That's what your own words say, not once but twice. I completely agree Clements is one of the top 20 or so QBs of all time, maybe even top 10 altho he probably wouldn't make my list. But he's not the best, which is what your words suggested.

[1971GreyCup]

I am hoping that the big splash the Argos make with the open GM doesn't take place in August 2017! Time's a wastin'!

I am afraid the longer this takes, the more it appears that the Argos are out of their depth. And of course, when you're out of your depth, you fire or lose your experts.

[Argo57]

Are you kidding, you're opinions are totally biased...Clements was better than Ray, Holloway and Brock, and arguably as good as any on that list. He was a pioneer of the passing revolution in the CFL when QBs with good seasons were passing for 2000-2500 yds, and Clements raised that bar. You must not be a big George Brancato fan or Ron Lancaster fan as a coach because they preferred Clements to Holloway hands down when they respectively coached in Ottawa and Saskatchewan. Garcia didn't also spend enough time in the CFL to be compared to Clements consistency. To say that Brock and Holloway were hands down better is just plain wrong. Ricky Ray can't even last a season in his last 5 years in the ever-so dainty world of protecting QB's in modern day football, he would've retired long ago had he played from the mid 70s to the late 80s like Clements did and his numbers would be nowhere to what they were in his era.

I parsed the wrong quote, but was it you that said the league has changed so much over the last 30 years...ya, it has. It could be argued that the quality of play is lower in today's CFL, based on all the pro leagues around today, the arena league, 32 NFL teams and the number of players that prefer to stay on an NFL practice roster for the money, rather than play in the CFL, which is what they would've chosen to do in the late 70s and early 80s because the salaries between the two leagues wasn't as wide as it is today.

Just curious, in a tongue and cheek kind of way, do you guys write love letters to each other as well?...you're comments just sounds too choreographed. Do you 2 guys ever have a differing opinion? Are you the same person?

In most circles of people who've watched the CFL over the last 40-50 yrs. Tom Clements definitely deserves to be on a list of best QB's ever. He could've played another 5 years and padded his numbers which are still very good, but left on his own accord. How many guys retire after an MOP season, not an MOP game, but a season. To suggest that he's nowhere near as good as Holloway and Brock is laughable, as he usually beat them head-to-head, and I'm an Argo fan. Brock had good teams in the Peg, but could never get to a Grey Cup game, let alone win one. Clements in his 2nd year with Winnipeg after he was traded for Brock, got there and won it...as a 2nd place team in the division as the Bombers were in '84. That fact alone I think shows how overvalued your football opinion may be.

Look we all have pride about our own opinions, but if you're really comfortable with yourself, you wouldn't disparage another poster's opinions no matter how much you disagreed with them...there's lots of words you could be called, but I'll let you figure that out...you sure write like you know everything and that your opinion is the only one that matters.

No wonder why I miss some posters who don't come on here as much, you've chased them away.

Clements had a great CFL career, Rookie of the year, 2x Grey Cup Champion and CFL MOP in his last season.
These discussions are difficult because personal bias comes into play, being an Argonaut fan I didn't like Clements because I wanted my team to win, also hated listening to Pat Marsden fawn all over Clements and the Ottawa Rough Riders during every telecast (like Rod Black does now).
I'm a Holloway guy TBH, for me he is my favourite QB hands down loved what he did for the Argos but on the flip side wouldn't expect any toothless Neanderthals in Hamilton to have him on their all time list either.

[Argo57]

I am hoping that the big splash the Argos make with the open GM doesn't take place in August 2017! Time's a wastin'!

I am afraid the longer this takes, the more it appears that the Argos are out of their depth. And of course, when you're out of your depth, you fire or lose your experts.

I'm with you on this, hopefully something happens this week.

[OV Argo]

Sorry Dude. Paul has forgotten more about CFL football than you will ever know. Tom Clements is nowhere near a list for a conversation of best ever CFL QB's.


Yeah - we've gone over this all-time CFL QB stuff before, and I realize you don't have a very high opinion of Clements (sorry, but he was quite a bit better than Holloway though ;o)); I might agree that Clements should not be on the list for top 3 or 5 level, but if you're going to say he should be "nowhere" near the conversation, then neither should be a bunch of guys Paul mentioned - like Calvillo or Damon Allen or McManus for example - who put up great career passing numbers by playing for many, many seasons and at a time when there was more passing than ever in the CFL plus more games in a season. None of those guys have near the total QB skill package of the all-time big 3 though and I'd argue Clements was more skilled, easily, than Calvillo or Mcmanus,

There is ONLY a big 3 allowed in talking all-time great CFL QBs (IMHO of course ;o)): Jackson, Moon, Flutie - based on total QB skill package (arm strength & accuracy, smarts/savvy, mobility, leadership/toughness) and CFL accomplishments (GC wins, MOP awards, all-stars). Calvillo might be considered an all-time great CFL QB by some and by virtue of his all-time passing yardage, but in the QB skills/talent department he's not in the same area code as the big 3 - not even close.

Clements could join a list of the next level down from the big 3 - he deserves to be there IMO.

[AngeloV]

Yeah - we've gone over this all-time CFL QB stuff before, and I realize you don't have a very high opinion of Clements (sorry, but he was quite a bit better than Holloway though ;o)); I might agree that Clements should not be on the list for top 3 or 5 level, but if you're going to say he should be "nowhere" near the conversation, then neither should be a bunch of guys Paul mentioned - like Calvillo or Damon Allen or McManus for example - who put up great career passing numbers by playing for many, many seasons and at a time when there was more passing than ever in the CFL plus more games in a season. None of those guys have near the total QB skill package of the all-time big 3 though and I'd argue Clements was more skilled, easily, than Calvillo or Mcmanus,

There is ONLY a big 3 allowed in talking all-time great CFL QBs (IMHO of course ;o)): Jackson, Moon, Flutie - based on total QB skill package and CFL accomplishments.

Clements could join a list of the next level down from the big 3 - he deserves to be there IMO.

Again, all this is subjective. IMO, the only thing Clements did better than Holloway was stay healthy. You know the way I feel about turnovers, and Holloway's career INT percentage was about 50% lower per attempt than Clements. Add to that the success Holloway had moving the chains with his feet, an I would take him over Clements any day. Clements threw 30 picks in his final year. Not sure how he won the Schenley that year, unless it was one of those lifetime achievement awards that some accuse the league of giving DA in 2005.

[OV Argo]

Again, all this is subjective. IMO, the only thing Clements did better than Holloway was stay healthy. You know the way I feel about turnovers, and Holloway's career INT percentage was about 50% lower per attempt than Clements. Add to that the success Holloway had moving the chains with his feet, an I would take him over Clements any day. Clements threw 30 picks in his final year. Not sure how he won the Schenley that year, unless it was one of those lifetime achievement awards that some accuse the league of giving DA in 2005.


Your emphasis on picks as a such a big factor is fine for you and yep, this is very subjective.

Sorry, but I go by overall QB skill-set, plus CFL accomplishments (see my criteria above) - Clements had the better passing arm, he was the starter over Holloway for several seasons when they were on the same team, and Clements won 2 GCs where he was a big factor / QB of record. Holloway was a bit more mobile, but Clements had some decent mobility. Zero question in my mind that Clements was a much better all-around QB talent, but hey it's a matter of opinion.

I don't have homer bias in rating all-time players - I hated all of Russ Jackson, Clements and Holloway when they were playing for the Ottawa Rough Riders, but I can (now anyways) admit they were great CFL QBs.

[Neely2005]

Are you kidding, you're opinions are totally biased...Clements was better than Ray, Holloway and Brock, and arguably as good as any on that list. He was a pioneer of the passing revolution in the CFL when QBs with good seasons were passing for 2000-2500 yds, and Clements raised that bar. You must not be a big George Brancato fan or Ron Lancaster fan as a coach because they preferred Clements to Holloway hands down when they respectively coached in Ottawa and Saskatchewan. Garcia didn't also spend enough time in the CFL to be compared to Clements consistency. To say that Brock and Holloway were hands down better is just plain wrong. Ricky Ray can't even last a season in his last 5 years in the ever-so dainty world of protecting QB's in modern day football, he would've retired long ago had he played from the mid 70s to the late 80s like Clements did and his numbers would be nowhere to what they were in his era.

I parsed the wrong quote, but was it you that said the league has changed so much over the last 30 years...ya, it has. It could be argued that the quality of play is lower in today's CFL, based on all the pro leagues around today, the arena league, 32 NFL teams and the number of players that prefer to stay on an NFL practice roster for the money, rather than play in the CFL, which is what they would've chosen to do in the late 70s and early 80s because the salaries between the two leagues wasn't as wide as it is today.

Just curious, in a tongue and cheek kind of way, do you guys write love letters to each other as well?...you're comments just sounds too choreographed. Do you 2 guys ever have a differing opinion? Are you the same person?

In most circles of people who've watched the CFL over the last 40-50 yrs. Tom Clements definitely deserves to be on a list of best QB's ever. He could've played another 5 years and padded his numbers which are still very good, but left on his own accord. How many guys retire after an MOP season, not an MOP game, but a season. To suggest that he's nowhere near as good as Holloway and Brock is laughable, as he usually beat them head-to-head, and I'm an Argo fan. Brock had good teams in the Peg, but could never get to a Grey Cup game, let alone win one. Clements in his 2nd year with Winnipeg after he was traded for Brock, got there and won it...as a 2nd place team in the division as the Bombers were in '84. That fact alone I think shows how overvalued your football opinion may be.

Look we all have pride about our own opinions, but if you're really comfortable with yourself, you wouldn't disparage another poster's opinions no matter how much you disagreed with them...there's lots of words you could be called, but I'll let you figure that out...you sure write like you know everything and that your opinion is the only one that matters.

No wonder why I miss some posters who don't come on here as much, you've chased them away.

The decorum on this board seems to be worse than on other boards that I'm on. I'm not really sure why that is but when you see someone getting crap for trying to give away a free jersey you know that something is wrong.

[AngeloV]

Your emphasis on picks as a such a big factor is fine for you and yep, this is very subjective.

Sorry, but I go by overall QB skill-set, plus CFL accomplishments (see my criteria above) - Clements had the better passing arm, he was the starter over Holloway for several seasons when they were on the same team, and Clements won 2 GCs where he was a big factor / QB of record. Holloway was a bit more mobile, but Clements had some decent mobility. Zero question in my mind that Clements was a much better all-around QB talent, but hey it's a matter of opinion.

I don't have homer bias in rating all-time players - I hated all of Russ Jackson, Clements and Holloway when they were playing for the Ottawa Rough Riders, but I can (now anyways) admit they were great CFL QBs.

For the record, I have no bias on my list. Clements played on a stacked Bombers team that arguably should have won more than 1 cup in his time there. I don't know how you can dismiss turning the ball over, but hey, that's just me, maybe.

[Jon Gonzo]

LOL. Giving it to a guy for not backing up what he says. OK Ole Pa Kettle, now we've seen it all.

[paulwoods13]

LOL. Giving it to a guy for not backing up what he says. OK Ole Pa Kettle, now we've seen it all.

Giving it to a guy for making stuff up and passing it off as fact. A tad different than not backing up what he says.

[OV Argo]

For the record, I have no bias on my list. Clements played on a stacked Bombers team that arguably should have won more than 1 cup in his time there. I don't know how you can dismiss turning the ball over, but hey, that's just me, maybe.

I'm sure you realize that QBs back in older CFL days gave up way more INTs for a very poor TD to INT ratio compared to today's game with emphasis on short dink & dunk passing and better completion percentages too. So I guess we could write off QBs from those eras - Etchevarry, Jackson, Lancaster, Pleon for example, just because of high INT/TD totals ???

I don't go by any one stat as the prime criterion. There are all sorts of passing stats to go by, and it is very difficult to compare the different eras with different styles of play/offence. But QBs who put up league best passing totals for the time they played in, plus had other QB skills (smarts, vision, leadership, running or scrambling ability) PLUS who led winning teams (GC wins) = all-time greats, IMO.

Clements was at or near the top in league passing totals often, he was a smart, heady QB, he had some mobility, and he won GCs with 2 different teams. Maybe not good enough for you, and that's OK by me. ;o)

[Tom]

Get a sense of being banned for a month, argoscott.

We are starved for information, but accuracy is pretty damned important.

Make the ban permanent and it`s a deal

[DanoT]

This makes you even less credible than citing Bubba as a source did. Better than Flutie, Moon, Parker, Jackson, Calvillo, Allen, Garcia, Lancaster, Ray, Holloway, Brock, Ploen, Dunigan, McManus, Burris? Good luck making that argument.

What? No love for Joe Kapp or Sam Etchevary?

As far as hiring Clements, no experience as a scout or player personnel guy, 30 years removed from his time in the NFL, kinda makes him a weak GM candidate.

As far as Copeland goes, a week after firing Barker and no announcement re a new GM kinda means he isn't even close to finding his new GM. Another swing and a miss is what it looks like to me. Could end up with Barf Andrus 2.0. as GM/HC.

[1971GreyCup]

Just maybe the Argos haven't found a suitable GM/HC candidate sifting through the Argosfans.com recommendations. Come on guys and gals, step it up help the team finds suitable candidates. Remember, you posts could be the difference between success and failure in 2017.

"Ask not what the team can do for you, ask what you could do for your team".

[Neely2005]

LOL. Giving it to a guy for not backing up what he says. OK Ole Pa Kettle, now we've seen it all.

Lol, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
:-)

[AngeloV]

LOL. Giving it to a guy for not backing up what he says. OK Ole Pa Kettle, now we've seen it all.


Lol, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
:-)

Look at the Bruins fans sticking together.

:D

[Argo57]

Just maybe the Argos haven't found a suitable GM/HC candidate sifting through the Argosfans.com recommendations. Come on guys and gals, step it up help the team finds suitable candidates. Remember, you posts could be the difference between success and failure in 2017.

"Ask not what the team can do for you, ask what you could do for your team".

Season tickets, merchandise and non stop chatter on argofans.com we all do our part.
The rest is up to them!!

[Jon Gonzo]

look at the bruins fans sticking together.

:d


lol

[R.J]

https://mobile.twitter.com/FarhanLaljiTSN/status/828684540944097280

Former Raiders assistant GM David Turner's name being brought up. Farhan also brings up that Turner has a strong connection to Trestman.

I really wish the Argos would look at someone with at least a few years of CFL experience. Someone who would also know who to hire as director of Canadian scouting and bring in someone like Ken Moll as assist. Gm and director of.player personnel.

[Gill The Thrill]

https://mobile.twitter.com/FarhanLaljiTSN/status/828684540944097280

Former Raiders assistant GM David Turner's name being brought up. Farhan also brings up that Turner has a strong connection to Trestman.

I really wish the Argos would look at someone with at least a few years of CFL experience. Someone who would also know who to hire as director of Canadian scouting and bring in someone like Ken Moll as assist. Gm and director of.player personnel.

The problem with just looking at Canadian experience is that there just isn't the pool of great candidates, who've experienced being a GM. I find a lot of guys American or Canadian involved with the CFL and who get CFL experience, get promotions without even having enough development as a coach, co-ordinator or a positions coach. Kavis Reed comes to mind, even Mike O'Shea to some extent. He went from coaching special teams to being a head coach.

There are even guys who do a lousy job and still get a promotion because they've worked in the CFL. I sincerely thought Jim Barker was one of these guys, as he was terrible in his first GM and coaching job in Calgary, and in his first go-around in Toronto over 15 yrs ago. He went to Montreal, but was nowhere near the guy who had all the authority under Popp and the coaches that were above him there, yet he got a promotion to GM....the same with Brendan Taman. These are not football geniuses, they're just guys who'll work for the salary being offered.

Look, it's one thing to have a salary cap for the players, but quite another to shortchange the braintrust in management. A bad management team that is not innovative and can't find good players will kill this league even more than bad players. Case in point , look at the Argos last season, and look at the decisions both Barker and Milanovich have made with QBs. They are practically responsible for the depleted fan base and the 5th place status that the Argos have in Toronto, behind even Toronto FC, which would've been laughable 5 yrs ago, let alone 10 yrs ago.