This is Outdoors. This is Toronto. Argos Football Video

[1971GreyCup]

https://youtu.be/bZ67WkHerao

I would advise Argos players to pass when offered the opportunity to be part of the 2017 marketing campaign. I think only Matt Black has survived from this video to play another season. The others, long gone!

The Argos brand isn't helped by saving bonus money and axing local, popular players. Neither does it help it survive in a market place dominated by modern professional sports and their huge payrolls. How to price goodwill? Save on a $25,000 bonus?

I am sorry that the solution to the future of the CFL seems to a restrictive salary cap that clearly passes on the biggest burden to the players (the entertainment product). Teams have no restrictions on management salary.

I guess I am a holdover from a time when the Argos kept players for years and we bonded with them. To this day, those names still resonate with me.

[Neely2005]

I asked about the constant roster turnover at the Open Mic Night and everyone seemed to agree that it's an issue for fans identifying with the team but there didn't really seem to be any ideas as to what to do about it.

[ArgoGabe22]

The sports landscape has changed. Popp even addressed this with how the contracts work. Players are either looking to strike it rich in the CFL or get that NFL deal. In the past, the salaries were more comparable. Those days are long gone.

[1971GreyCup]

The sports landscape has changed. Popp even addressed this with how the contracts work. Players are either looking to strike it rich in the CFL or get that NFL deal. In the past, the salaries were more comparable. Those days are long gone.

BC, Calgary seem to haven't changed as radically as the Argos in recent years. I see this characteristic as holding the Argos image back locally. Right now we have been witnessing a lot of Tier 2 NFL players that stay for a season and then move on. Marketable local names Durie, Foley a dropped unceremoniously. Bad PR. Marginal cost savings.

[ArgoGabe22]

BC, Calgary seem to haven't changed as radically as the Argos in recent years. I see this characteristic as holding the Argos image back locally. Right now we have been witnessing a lot of Tier 2 NFL players that stay for a season and then move on. Marketable local names Durie, Foley a dropped unceremoniously. Bad PR. Marginal cost savings.

BC and Calgary didn't have a 5 win season. Change was imminent. Especially with a new HC and GM.

[1971GreyCup]

BC and Calgary didn't have a 5 win season. Change was imminent. Especially with a new HC and GM.

If this was the first year Argos had carried out the wholesale changes, I'd agree. They've been doing this for years.

As long as the Argos play in front of an empty stadium, the system is broken. Fill the place and I'll agree they are doing the right things.

[Stevoman]

I too am irritated by the constant player turnover ever since the latest CFLPA renegotiations on contracts. 1 or 2 year deals means annual upheaval. I see how it can help both sides but it also hurts as well. Some players would likely prefer at least the illusion of a little more security.

[Stevoman]

Being April 1st, remember back in '05 or so when the Argos used to have well done jokes on this day? They even got me to believe them once or twice.

[ArgoGabe22]

If this was the first year Argos had carried out the wholesale changes, I'd agree. They've been doing this for years.

As long as the Argos play in front of an empty stadium, the system is broken. Fill the place and I'll agree they are doing the right things.

The team they've been assembling over the years was never a constant winner. Build a winning a team and the fans will come. If not, then roster changes will keep occurring. Popp and Copeland have discussed this at the open mic event and are trying to create a winning culture.

[Wobbler]

...there didn't really seem to be any ideas as to what to do about it.
I think the only "solution" is to embrace it. Higher turnover is probably here to stay, as Gabe pointed out, and the upside is more opportunities to be surprised by the abilities of new guys.

[1971GreyCup]

Being April 1st, remember back in '05 or so when the Argos used to have well done jokes on this day? They even got me to believe them once or twice.

On April 1st. 2012 I got my young son. He believed that Argos traded Chad Owens to New England for Wesley Welker! He stilll remembers the confusion of that morning. I tried again this morning and told him Poop and Trestman re-signed, but he didn't even flinch. He's on to me!

[Neely2005]

I too am irritated by the constant player turnover ever since the latest CFLPA renegotiations on contracts. 1 or 2 year deals means annual upheaval. I see how it can help both sides but it also hurts as well. Some players would likely prefer at least the illusion of a little more security.

With contracts Not being guaranteed in the CFL (and NFL) I don't think that there's much security regardless.

[AngeloV]

https://youtu.be/bZ67WkHerao

I would advise Argos players to pass when offered the opportunity to be part of the 2017 marketing campaign. I think only Matt Black has survived from this video to play another season. The others, long gone!

The Argos brand isn't helped by saving bonus money and axing local, popular players. Neither does it help it survive in a market place dominated by modern professional sports and their huge payrolls. How to price goodwill? Save on a $25,000 bonus?

I am sorry that the solution to the future of the CFL seems to a restrictive salary cap that clearly passes on the biggest burden to the players (the entertainment product). Teams have no restrictions on management salary.

I guess I am a holdover from a time when the Argos kept players for years and we bonded with them. To this day, those names still resonate with me.

If you feel this strongly against the way things are being done, why weren't you at the Open mic to voice some opinions and suggestions?


BC, Calgary seem to haven't changed as radically as the Argos in recent years. I see this characteristic as holding the Argos image back locally. Right now we have been witnessing a lot of Tier 2 NFL players that stay for a season and then move on. Marketable local names Durie, Foley a dropped unceremoniously. Bad PR. Marginal cost savings.

Really? I defy you to look at BC's roster and coaching staff from 3 years ago, and compare it to today.

[AngeloV]

I think the only "solution" is to embrace it. Higher turnover is probably here to stay, as Gabe pointed out, and the upside is more opportunities to be surprised by the abilities of new guys.

Jim Popp pretty much said this too. In fact, it's his belief that there is more roster turnover in the NFL than the CFL. The difference being with the top players making so much money, the 7-10 "faces" of the team usually stay for a longer period of time. the other 40 or so are very interchangeable.

[ArgoGabe22]

Jim Popp pretty much said this too. In fact, it's his belief that there is more roster turnover in the NFL than the CFL. The difference being with the top players making so much money, the 7-10 "faces" of the team usually stay for a longer period of time. the other 40 or so are very interchangeable.

It'll be a headache to figure this out but I wonder how turnover the Patriots accumulate. Like Popp said, most only know 3-4 players but who knows what happens to the rest?

[Will]

It'll be a headache to figure this out but I wonder how turnover the Patriots accumulate. Like Popp said, most only know 3-4 players but who knows what happens to the rest?

As long as you keep winning then nobody notices I guess?

[AngeloV]

As long as you keep winning then nobody notices I guess?

Bingo. Now, having said that, I also realize you can't compare the 2 leagues. NFL teams make money without even putting a but in the seats thanks to an unbelievable TV contract and crazy sponsorship deals. The CFL is and likely always will be gate driven, so they need to do something to get the fans back.

[Will]

Bingo. Now, having said that, I also realize you can't compare the 2 leagues. NFL teams make money without even putting a but in the seats thanks to an unbelievable TV contract and crazy sponsorship deals. The CFL is and likely always will be gate driven, so they need to do something to get the fans back.

But, what did we get told on Tuesday, that their biggest marketing tactic is to try to get people to come out to games based on the experience, and yes, having a good team goes with that. Perhaps they are reacting to the new reality of not being able to market the player as much for that reason? However, you also cannot discount that they are acknowledging that with the team going through a rebuild that it is more difficult to identify star players to use for that purpose.

[jerrym]

The Argos have had higher turnover than the most successful teams, such as Calgary and BC, in recent years. With the change in GM and HC this pattern was not only bound to continue but to be even greater, at least in the short run, as this is typical of nearly all such changes in all team sports. However, Popp and Trestman, in their successful years in Montreal did keep much of their core players together for some time and hopefully will establish this to some extent in Toronto, keeping in mind that free agency and the NFL will always beckon for some players.

[paulwoods13]

So is turnover lower in B.C. and Calgary (which I'll accept is true without actually checking) because they're good? Or are they good because turnover is lower?

Does no one remember that the Argos and Ticats were notorious for changing their rosters after Labour Day every year? The Argo airlift?

The notion that there wasn't a lot of turnover in the past is a myth, IMO. There have been players who stayed for five or more years, but they are the exception, and I would suggest that applies to every team in the league since at least 1980.

[Will]

So is turnover lower in B.C. and Calgary (which I'll accept is true without actually checking) because they're good? Or are they good because turnover is lower?

Does no one remember that the Argos and Ticats were notorious for changing their rosters after Labour Day every year? The Argo airlift?

The notion that there wasn't a lot of turnover in the past is a myth, IMO. There have been players who stayed for five or more years, but they are the exception, and I would suggest that applies to every team in the league since at least 1980.

It is about having an excellent scouting department, IMO, constantly being able to identify future starters several years beforehand.

[ArgoRavi]

Is B.C. really that good of an example to use of a team with less player turnover? Most on here applaud Wally for making moves like the Argos have had to make this off-season with the likes of Durie and Foley - i.e., Wally knows when players have hit their "best before" date before disposing of them. Furthermore, the Lions were a team in obvious decline from 2013 through 2015 before finally reversing that trend last year.

[Argo57]

It is about having an excellent scouting department, IMO, constantly being able to identify future starters several years beforehand.

Scouting gets the cycle started, along with good coaching breeds success which in turn keeps players around and makes it much easier to attract top college prospects and free agents, Calgary has been able to maintain this cycle which in itself is very impressive.
I suspect Ottawa is also on the verge of this as as well, football is a pretty tight knit community and word spreads rather quickly in regards to preferred destinations and organizations to avoid.
Argos have a way to go in this regard but bringing in Popp and Trestman should prove to be a huge step forward IMO, it will take time.

[jerrym]

The Argos have had higher turnover than the most successful teams, such as Calgary and BC, in recent years. With the change in GM and HC this pattern was not only bound to continue but to be even greater, at least in the short run, as this is typical of nearly all such changes in all team sports. However, Popp and Trestman, in their successful years in Montreal did keep much of their core players together for some time and hopefully will establish this to some extent in Toronto, keeping in mind that free agency and the NFL will always beckon for some players.


Is B.C. really that good of an example to use of a team with less player turnover? Most on here applaud Wally for making moves like the Argos have had to make this off-season with the likes of Durie and Foley - i.e., Wally knows when players have hit their "best before" date before disposing of them. Furthermore, the Lions were a team in obvious decline from 2013 through 2015 before finally reversing that trend last year.

My comment wasn't that successful teams don't make changes but that they try to keep their core players together to a greater extent. They don't engage in wholesale changes year after year. Barker let many players go, especially on defence, without much of an effort at retaining them because he didn't believe in making much of an effort in free agency.
Wally succeeds, in part, because he changes players before their best before date where possible while trying to avoid losing too many of his core players at once or allowing a team to age into decrepitude by trying to keep players together too long. The Alouettes of the late 1990s and early 2000s and the Stampeders have succeeded in part in a similar manner.
The Argo airlifts of decades ago, as well as those of the Tiger Cats and Ottawa Rough Riders, led to teams that were not able to compete against the more stable Western teams for many years, showing that wholesale changes rarely work.
The longest consecutive winning streak in terms of division titles in recent sport history was the Atlanta Braves (14 from 1991 to 2005), who deliberately followed a strategy during this period of making several changes each year to renew the team that allowed them to have a core of players that was neither changed rapidly nor aged out of being competitive because of aging.
Of course the CFL is different in the sense that it is harder to do that because of free agency and the NFL, but this does not mean there is nothing that can be done in this regard, nor that it is not worth the effort.

[Neely2005]

My comment wasn't that successful teams don't make changes but that they try to keep their core players together to a greater extent. They don't engage in wholesale changes year after year. Barker let many players go, especially on defence, without much of an effort at retaining them because he didn't believe in making much of an effort in free agency.
Wally succeeds, in part, because he changes players before their best before date where possible while trying to avoid losing too many of his core players at once or allowing a team to age into decrepitude by trying to keep players together too long. The Alouettes of the late 1990s and early 2000s and the Stampeders have succeeded in part in a similar manner.
The Argo airlifts of decades ago, as well as those of the Tiger Cats and Ottawa Rough Riders, led to teams that were not able to compete against the more stable Western teams for many years, showing that wholesale changes rarely work.
The longest consecutive winning streak in terms of division titles in recent sport history was the Atlanta Braves (14 from 1991 to 2005), who deliberately followed a strategy during this period of making several changes each year to renew the team that allowed them to have a core of players that was neither changed rapidly nor aged out of being competitive because of aging.
Of course the CFL is different in the sense that it is harder to do that because of free agency and the NFL, but this does not mean there is nothing that can be done in this regard, nor that it is not worth the effort.

I don't think that Atlanta is a great example, they rarely won the World Series championship during that time.

[paulwoods13]

Barker let many players go, especially on defence, without much of an effort at retaining them because he didn't believe in making much of an effort in free agency.

That flies in the face of Barker's oft-stated belief that the most important free agents worth pursuing are your own. How many Argo defenders signed and made an impact with other teams? Other than Watkins, I can't think of any. Maybe I'm forgetting someone?

[Wobbler]

I'd add Greg Jones to your list.

[ArgoGabe22]

In terms of high player turnover, were there any players in the last 4 years that we really should've kept but didn't/couldn't? I don't think we really lost any key player except for maybe Watkins, Boyd (?). Is some cases like Owens, he was being pushed out by a younger Spencer/Shaw. Same could be said with Boyd/Kackert.

This off season was a little strange because we had no GM/HC in place, so losing players was no surprise. But I'm not sure I would call Jefferson, Spencer, Shaw "elite". Even Greenwood is a mystery with his health.

[Harpastum]

High turnover a problem...?
Maybe Argo jerseys should come with Velcro - to make it an easy change to new names & numbers!

[BATKINSON001]

High turnover a problem...?
Maybe Argo jerseys should come with Velcro - to make it an easy change to new names & numbers! I would like that.

[Antwon]

Is B.C. really that good of an example to use of a team with less player turnover? Most on here applaud Wally for making moves like the Argos have had to make this off-season with the likes of Durie and Foley - i.e., Wally knows when players have hit their "best before" date before disposing of them. Furthermore, the Lions were a team in obvious decline from 2013 through 2015 before finally reversing that trend last year.

Comparing to BC makes some glaring bad judgement on JB and SM.
BC decided not to rely on the oft injured Lulay. Developed a younger QB and went with him.
We all know JB and SM put all their chips on Ray. And paid dearly.
Hence why the lions are in better shape right now.

[Harpastum]

So has this thread become, "Who do we blame for the state we're in"?
We've all been down this road before with our team - & it will do no good now - to dissect the reasons of who or why.
It is what it is - & I am confident we will be a better team this season.
And I say - if the new brain trust decide to stay with Ray - then I'm all in with my support of them on that!
BUT - if this proves to be a poor decision - I'm gonna have a hard time not blaming someone other than myself.
Hahaha.

[AngeloV]

So has this thread become, "Who do we blame for the state we're in"?
We've all been down this road before with our team - & it will do no good now - to dissect the reasons of who or why.
It is what it is - & I am confident we will be a better team this season.
And I say - if the new brain trust decide to stay with Ray - then I'm all in with my support of them on that!
BUT - if this proves to be a poor decision - I'm gonna have a hard time not blaming someone other than myself.
Hahaha.

Love this attitude!!

[paulwoods13]

Comparing to BC makes some glaring bad judgement on JB and SM.
BC decided not to rely on the oft injured Lulay. Developed a younger QB and went with him.
We all know JB and SM put all their chips on Ray. And paid dearly.
Hence why the lions are in better shape right now.

What is the point continuing to decry decisions made ages ago by a regime that is no longer here? Collaros and Harris are long gone. Barker and Milanovich are gone. We may as well complain about letting Dunigan walk in 1992, or trading Don Jonas in 1970.

[AngeloV]

What is the point continuing to decry decisions made ages ago by a regime that is no longer here? Collaros and Harris are long gone. Barker and Milanovich are gone. We may as well complain about letting Dunigan walk in 1992, or trading Don Jonas in 1970.

I may have only been 2, but I hated the Jonas trade.

:D