What are your honest, realistic expectations of this team.

[Will]

The Argos were the worst team in the CFL in 2016 finishing 5-13. The coaching staff has undergone a complete overhaul with Scott Milanovich resigning and moving to Jacksonville to be the QB coach and Jim Barker being fired. They were replaced by Marc Trestman and Jim Popp respectively. The complications in putting these two in place meant that the Argos missed out on several marquee free agents. With training camp a few weeks away I wanted to ask people what their honest, realistic expectations were for this upcoming season:

Offence

The Argos will go as far as Ricky Ray's health will take them. His injury history has been well documented and I will not repeat it. Drew Willy, Jeff Mathews and Cody Fajardo compete for his backup spots.

I'm comfortable with the situation at running back.

The Argo receiving corps even with S.J Green is still a little thin. Fuller has an injury history and Paden is inexperienced as is Jones and Wylie. The Argos could use some luck here.

The o-line still makes me nervous. The LT spot is still up in the air and the right side of the OL is still a concern too.

Defence

The D-line should be solid.

The Argos need a MLB.

I hope the secondary will improve with a year of experience under their belts.

Anyways, I'm hoping that the Trestman/Popp duo gives the Argos some intangibles, and if some guys stay healthy and emerge then maybe we can pull a shocker on the rest of the league. It's contingent on many things, but hoping things break the Argos way for once.

[ArgoGabe22]

I think 8 wins is very possible and wouldn't be surprised if they can finish the season at 9-9 or even 10-8. I think it also depends on what the competition is like in the East. Did Montreal improve and will Ottawa regress a bit? And who knows how Hamilton will look this year? Argos are very much in it at this point but might find out quickly if they aren't able to keep up with the rest of the East.

A lot of good NCAA calibre players were signed that I'm excited to see to in camp but I don't expect much at this point because a lot of these players seem to come and go and just fall off the radar.

[Harpastum]

With no pre-season games to provide evidence of their ability/inability - this is a real crapshoot.
But my crystal ball - which I've painted BLUE by the way - says 7-11.
Which means there will be many times we will be taking "Big Gulps" on our way out of the stadium this season.
Hahaha!

[doubleblue]

The Argos were the worst team in the CFL in 2016 finishing 5-13. The coaching staff has undergone a complete overhaul with Scott Milanovich resigning and moving to Jacksonville to be the QB coach and Jim Barker being fired. They were replaced by Marc Trestman and Jim Popp respectively. The complications in putting these two in place meant that the Argos missed out on several marquee free agents. With training camp a few weeks away I wanted to ask people what their honest, realistic expectations were for this upcoming season:

Offence

The Argos will go as far as Ricky Ray's health will take them. His injury history has been well documented and I will not repeat it. Drew Willy, Jeff Mathews and Cody Fajardo compete for his backup spots.

I'm comfortable with the situation at running back.

The Argo receiving corps even with S.J Green is still a little thin. Fuller has an injury history and Paden is inexperienced as is Jones and Wylie. The Argos could use some luck here.

The o-line still makes me nervous. The LT spot is still up in the air and the right side of the OL is still a concern too.

Defence

The D-line should be solid.

The Argos need a MLB.

I hope the secondary will improve with a year of experience under their belts.

Anyways, I'm hoping that the Trestman/Popp duo gives the Argos some intangibles, and if some guys stay healthy and emerge then maybe we can pull a shocker on the rest of the league. It's contingent on many things, but hoping things break the Argos way for once.

I think you pretty well nailed it.

[Argo57]

The Argos were the worst team in the CFL in 2016 finishing 5-13. The coaching staff has undergone a complete overhaul with Scott Milanovich resigning and moving to Jacksonville to be the QB coach and Jim Barker being fired. They were replaced by Marc Trestman and Jim Popp respectively. The complications in putting these two in place meant that the Argos missed out on several marquee free agents. With training camp a few weeks away I wanted to ask people what their honest, realistic expectations were for this upcoming season:

Offence

The Argos will go as far as Ricky Ray's health will take them. His injury history has been well documented and I will not repeat it. Drew Willy, Jeff Mathews and Cody Fajardo compete for his backup spots.

I'm comfortable with the situation at running back.

The Argo receiving corps even with S.J Green is still a little thin. Fuller has an injury history and Paden is inexperienced as is Jones and Wylie. The Argos could use some luck here.

The o-line still makes me nervous. The LT spot is still up in the air and the right side of the OL is still a concern too.

Defence

The D-line should be solid.

The Argos need a MLB.

I hope the secondary will improve with a year of experience under their belts.

Anyways, I'm hoping that the Trestman/Popp duo gives the Argos some intangibles, and if some guys stay healthy and emerge then maybe we can pull a shocker on the rest of the league. It's contingent on many things, but hoping things break the Argos way for once.

Your assessment is pretty spot on, given the fact Popp and Trestman were hired relatively late I feel 2017 will be the first step in establishing a winning program.
Popps overall track record in Montreal was pretty impressive and I think he has learned from the last part of his tenure there.
Trestman will garner respect from his players and will hold them accountable (another improvement) so better days ahead.
2017 Record 9-9

[paulwoods13]

I expect the team to compete for a playoff spot, and won't be surprised if they get in. Trestman will see to it that whoever he has to work with is well prepared.

If Ricky stays healthy, I expect him to complete 70-75% of his passes and have a 3/1 or better TD/INT ratio.

[Wobbler]

I hope the secondary will improve with a year of experience under their belts.
This I don't get. It looks to me like we'll have an almost entirely new secondary plus a new position coach. Gabriel has been starting since 2014, so I don't see him improving much.


Anyways, I'm hoping that the Trestman/Popp duo gives the Argos some intangibles, and if some guys stay healthy and emerge then maybe we can pull a shocker on the rest of the league.
I'm less worried about our OL than I am about the receiving corps. Ray certainly needs protection, but receivers who can get open are the best protection a QB could ask for. So far I'm not convinced that we have that.

I hope I'm wrong, obviously, but my prediction is that we'll miss the playoffs again.

[Shatto]

The receiving group may be better than most of us expect. Presently there are 11 International receivers on the roster--5 of them were drafted by NFL teams. Also 5 have played multiple games in the NFL--3 of them more than 20 games during their time in the NFL. When you add Green, who has been an exemplary East Division and CFL All-Star player, there is some reason to be hopeful.
If these players have a modicum of their previously demonstrated talent, we might have a reasonable receiving crew. One player who impressed in the 4 games he played last year, was Posey. He has size (6' 2"/210) and speed (4.39). He ran sharp disciplined routes and appeared to have good hands. If he has kept in shape and is motivated, he could be an asset to the team this year.

[Jon Gonzo]

I simply desire a team that competes hard on any given night, and is hard to play against. Last year was disguisting. I want a winning program established, and that has begun. I actually expect more from ownership and the brass. This team needs a professional environment, and a pro practice facility to compete as a professional football team ought to.

This, as we have seen, adversely effects the team on the field and I think it ultimately cost two good football men their jobs.

Speaking of on the field; there are too many important positions left hanging for me to get too, too optimistic however. LT, MLB, and the health of our starting QB. I think the D-Line, and D-Backfield will surprise and I think that if Ricky has time, these receivers will too.

I believe Hamilton and Ottawa are better teams at this point. I'll call 8-10, and .500 if all falls into place with a shot at the Playoffs as the 3rd Team in the East.

[jerrym]

I expect the team to compete for a playoff spot, and won't be surprised if they get in. Trestman will see to it that whoever he has to work with is well prepared.

If Ricky stays healthy, I expect him to complete 70-75% of his passes and have a 3/1 or better TD/INT ratio.

I also think the Argos will compete for a playoff spot, but only because they are in the East. If they would be in tough to make a playoff spot.

[gilthethrill]

Argos go 11-7 in a surprising tough East. O-line looks better than they are because of Ray getting rid of the ball quickly in a potent Trestman offence. D-line is formidable making the backends job simpler.

Tie me to an ant hill and fill my ears with jam if I am wrong.

[Neely2005]

I also expect to be competing for a playoff spot.

[Will]

The receiving group may be better than most of us expect. Presently there are 11 International receivers on the roster--5 of them were drafted by NFL teams. Also 5 have played multiple games in the NFL--3 of them more than 20 games during their time in the NFL. When you add Green, who has been an exemplary East Division and CFL All-Star player, there is some reason to be hopeful.
If these players have a modicum of their previously demonstrated talent, we might have a reasonable receiving crew. One player who impressed in the 4 games he played last year, was Posey. He has size (6' 2"/210) and speed (4.39). He ran sharp disciplined routes and appeared to have good hands. If he has kept in shape and is motivated, he could be an asset to the team this year.

I just hope that people do not put too much pressure on S.J Green. He is clearly the veteran of that group and it isn't much different from the circumstances that Jeremaine Copeland found himself in when he was acquired by the Argos in 2010. Now, Ricky Ray is a way better QB than Cleo Lemon, but I do recall Jeremaine Copeland receiving some criticism (from Foley's brother mind you) about his lack of production. You'd also recall that not only was the Argo QB situation unstable at the time, but the receiver depth wasn't great either.

[Topshelf]

They'll make the playoffs, third in east, first playoff game will be a coin flip, but they won't win the east.
Coaching has improved, but if Hamilton is healthy they will be tough to beat.
I don't see us finishing ahead of ottawa or hamilton in regular season, but I also don't think there will be a crossover from the west.
Popp and Trestmann need a season to bring in their guys and implement their system.

[ArgoZ]

At this time I really don't see an improved team over the one that won 5 last season. I think the coach and hopefully a few surprises in camp can get at least 4 more wins. 9-9.

[ArgoGabe22]

I'm confident we have the best cheerleaders in the league so there's always that.

[gilthethrill]

I'm confident we have the best cheerleaders in the league so there's always that.

Get your mind out of the gutter young lad!

[Stevoman]

I'm thinking 7-11. Any more than that will be gravy.

[R.J]

I still think Hamilton is the Beast of the East, I suppose the biggest question with them is their defense under Reinebold.
I think Ottawa will regress, and that Montreal will progress.

I think there's a very slim chance the Argonauts make the playoffs, but IMO hedging their bets on Ricky Ray is asking for another worst in the East season. Then again, not like Willy, Matthews and Fajardo give much hope either.
Funny enough, I think the defense should be better, though I still don't think much of Chamblin.

Offence:
Oline still a ? IMO - Who plays Lt, can Holmes regain form, will McEwen progress or regress, and will Van Zeyl continue his downward slide ? Deane if healthy should be okay.
WR's - Can SJ come back 100% healthy and regain form, can Fuller stay healthy for at least 15 games, in leaving Ottawa will Paden get a legit shot, and make the most of it ? etc
RB - While I love Whitaker, IMO he's not an every down back anymore, and I hope Wilder can shine.
QB - Already went there.
Offensive scheme - It should be better under Trestman, but Ray, Willy, Matthews and Fajardo aren't Calvillo, not one of them has a quick release.

Defence:
Who plays MLB ?
Can Murray and Sears actually stay healthy ? (I wouldn't put my money on Sears)
Can Popp rebuild the secondary the way he did in Montreal ? (they started the season with 3 CFL rookies in 2016, who turned out to be pretty good - second best D in the league).
DL looks impressive.
Will Chamblin succeed as a DC or just continue to show what he had in Hamilton and Saskatchewan ?

[Rich]

I hope the secondary will improve with a year of experience under their belts.


Nobody talks about Josh Mitchell, but i thought he was a great find who could turn into a real good player. Just a little guy but he plays bigger, hits hard and he's smart with great football instincts.

[KCargosfan]

Going with Ray is a mistake in my mind. I think our offense could be a disaster. Even if Ray stays healthy, he's over-the-hill, and I don't like our backups or o-line. Ownership missed a chance for a massive reboot last November.

I hope I'm dead wrong, but this is the least optimistic I've been about a season since I started following the league.

[AngeloV]

Nobody talks about Josh Mitchell, but i thought he was a great find who could turn into a real good player. Just a little guy but he plays bigger, hits hard and he's smart with great football instincts.

The beauty of this season is that almost everyone is coming in with a clean slate. It's easy to look at past performance and say this guy stinks, but different cultures often bring out a difference in performance. I honestly have no idea where the Argos will finish this year. In this league especially, nobody can. But I am really excited to see this team form through TC and into the season.

[paulwoods13]

I just don't see how Ricky Ray can be considered "over the hill" even if he stays healthy. Last season he completed 74.5% of his passes, second-highest percentage of his career. His TD/INT ratio (2.5/1) was fourth-best of his career and just slightly behind his second-best of 2.7/1 -(2013 was an outlier at 10.5/1). His average gain per pass (8.0) was just 10th-highest out of the 13 seasons in which he played at least nine games, but basically where he has been throughout his career (8.0 last season, 8.3 career).

In his five years with the Argos, he has had a higher completion percentage (71.2 vs. 66.8), higher TD/INT ratio (2.5 vs. 1.6) and slightly lower avg gain (8.2 vs. 8.4) than in his first nine seasons. The only thing he is demonstrably worse at is staying off the injury list. When he's been healthy his play has been at least equal to, and arguably better than, what it was for the first nine years of his career.

[Neely2005]

Going with Ray is a mistake in my mind. I think our offense could be a disaster. Even if Ray stays healthy, he's over-the-hill, and I don't like our backups or o-line. Ownership missed a chance for a massive reboot last November.

I hope I'm dead wrong, but this is the least optimistic I've been about a season since I started following the league.

How did Burris (who is older than Ray) do last season?

[R.J]

Throwing a bunch of check downs helps inflate Ray's completion percentage numbers. Likewise for any other QB for that matter.

[paulwoods13]

Throwing a bunch of check downs helps inflate Ray's completion percentage numbers. Likewise for any other QB for that matter.

Does it inflate his TD/INT ratio? Does it keep his avg gain per pass where it was his entire career?

[Scooter McCray]

I love Ricky Ray and expect him to be our starter and expect him to put up good stats but other than Kevin Glenn in Saskatchewan is he at present better than any of the other starting QBS? An honest question. What it also says is there is a lot of talent once again at the QB position in the CFL. I don't believe there will be any doormats in the league this year. The Argos should be in every game this year on coaching and preparation alone.

[Antwon]

I think 8 wins minimum. WR is a crap shoot with a lot of inexperience minus Green.

As for QB, I'm not betting on Ray being the starter as the season goes on.
I understand what Trestman can do for our QB's. I just don't think Ray has the tools anymore. (hope I'm wrong)
I'm no expert, but I think Trestman had more to work with in Calvillo. Both have limited mobility. But Calvillo had a quick release, and could gun the ball in when needed.
Ray's release seems slow compared to other QB's in the league. And he's never been known to have a cannon of an arm.
I think as the season goes Trestman will see more potential in one of our other QB's to lead the offense.


As for the team, I expect more discipline and intensity. Too many flat starts last year as the players had turned on SM.

[jerrym]

I think 8 wins minimum. WR is a crap shoot with a lot of inexperience minus Green.

As for QB, I'm not betting on Ray being the starter as the season goes on.
I understand what Trestman can do for our QB's. I just don't think Ray has the tools anymore. (hope I'm wrong)
I'm no expert, but I think Trestman had more to work with in Calvillo. Both have limited mobility. But Calvillo had a quick release, and could gun the ball in when needed.
Ray's release seems slow compared to other QB's in the league. And he's never been known to have a cannon of an arm.
I think as the season goes Trestman will see more potential in one of our other QB's to lead the offense.


As for the team, I expect more discipline and intensity. Too many flat starts last year as the players had turned on SM.

While I agree that there is a good chance Ray will not remain the starter as the season wears on, IMO it will be due to injury as has happened often in the past. He may not have the strongest arm but few can match the touch he puts on the ball. While I am not down on Willy to the same extent as some here, I don't think he is anywhere near even an aging Ray. Given Trestman's record in Montreal, I think he ride the veteran horse as long as it shows it's leading the team towards a Ray of sunshine (sorry for the mixed metaphors).

[Antwon]

While I agree that there is a good chance Ray will not remain the starter as the season wears on, IMO it will be due to injury as has happened often in the past. He may not have the strongest arm but few can match the touch he puts on the ball. While I am not down on Willy to the same extent as some here, I don't think he is anywhere near even an aging Ray. Given Trestman's record in Montreal, I think he ride the veteran horse as long as it shows it's leading the team towards a Ray of sunshine (sorry for the mixed metaphors).

I listened to the TSN interview. I liked what Trestman said. Declaring Ray the starter, but also being honest as it will also be based on performance.
And Ray being agreeable to it as well. I have complete faith in Trestman. If he feels Ray gives us the best chance at winning then he'll play.
If one of the others comes around and gives us a better change, then they'll play.

[KCargosfan]

How did Burris (who is older than Ray) do last season?

Are you comparing the athletic ability of Burris and Ray? Or the ability to stay healthy?

[KCargosfan]

I just don't see how Ricky Ray can be considered "over the hill" even if he stays healthy. Last season he completed 74.5% of his passes, second-highest percentage of his career. His TD/INT ratio (2.5/1) was fourth-best of his career and just slightly behind his second-best of 2.7/1 -(2013 was an outlier at 10.5/1). His average gain per pass (8.0) was just 10th-highest out of the 13 seasons in which he played at least nine games, but basically where he has been throughout his career (8.0 last season, 8.3 career).

In his five years with the Argos, he has had a higher completion percentage (71.2 vs. 66.8), higher TD/INT ratio (2.5 vs. 1.6) and slightly lower avg gain (8.2 vs. 8.4) than in his first nine seasons. The only thing he is demonstrably worse at is staying off the injury list. When he's been healthy his play has been at least equal to, and arguably better than, what it was for the first nine years of his career.

Kind of an important thing.

From what we've seen, what leads you or anyone to believe Ray can stay healthy and on the field? He isn't half the athlete Burris is/was, and imo he's a worse athlete than Calvillo.

Ray will turn 38 during the season. He's started 11 games the past 2 seasons. His arm strength isn't what it was 4 years ago. All of those factors can make him over the hill.

[paulwoods13]

Kind of an important thing.

From what we've seen, what leads you or anyone to believe Ray can stay healthy and on the field? He isn't half the athlete Burris is/was, and imo he's a worse athlete than Calvillo.

Ray will turn 38 during the season. He's started 11 games the past 2 seasons. His arm strength isn't what it was 4 years ago. All of those factors can make him over the hill.

I gather you are basing the over-the-hill contention entirely on his injury history, and you don't wish to address any of the other points I raised about his performance when healthy?

His injuries have been to different areas, and some of them have been fluky -- anyone (even a great athlete) could have been hurt in the same position. Arm strength was never his calling card. I disagree he's a worse athlete than Calvillo.

[doubleblue]

Kind of an important thing.

From what we've seen, what leads you or anyone to believe Ray can stay healthy and on the field? He isn't half the athlete Burris is/was, and imo he's a worse athlete than Calvillo.

Ray will turn 38 during the season. He's started 11 games the past 2 seasons. His arm strength isn't what it was 4 years ago. All of those factors can make him over the hill.

I agree there are was red flags going forward with Ricky. But, IMO he is still the best QB available for the Argos right now. The thing is to keep the big hits from happening. The late hit from Vaughan Martin was more of a fluke injury IMO and the hit he took in the Hamilton game shouldn't have happened because a DE came unblocked. I have confidence in Trestman's offence to design plays for quick release plays that made Cavillo so successful. Would love to see a big back like Messam back there to ride shotgun for Ricky and pick up the blitz's that defenses will use, but that never seems to happen in Toronto. Only (unsuccessful) lol teams like Calgary would think of doing such a thing.

[Will]

It is truthful that many of Ray's injuries were what might be termed "fluky," however I don't think the OL has improved dramatically since last season and thus the potential for more of these "fluky" injuries remains high.

[AngeloV]

IMO and the hit he took in the Hamilton game shouldn't have happened because a DE came unblocked.

IMO the hit in Hamilton should never have happened because on the previous play Tom Valessi and his crew ruled an obvious target area PI in the endzone as an illegal contact. That placed the ball on the 4 yard line rather than the 1. Had the correct call been made, Fajardo would have been in for the goal line situation, and Ray would never have been hit.

[R.J]

It is truthful that many of Ray's injuries were what might be termed "fluky," however I don't think the OL has improved dramatically since last season and thus the potential for more of these "fluky" injuries remains high.
Left knee sprain in 2012, injured left knee yet again in 2013 against Winnipeg, then partial torn muscle in his throwing shoulder against Calgary, tore his right labrum (throwing shoulder) in 2014, which he played through until he was concussed against Montreal in the penultimate regular season game, 2015 was recovering from his off season shoulder surgery and never looked healthy enough to be out there. And in 2016, Sprained left knee yet again, then the rib and lung injury. Aside from the concussion and rib/lung injuries, there seems to be a recurring theme here.

[gilthethrill]

IMO the hit in Hamilton should never have happened because on the previous play Tom Valessi and his crew ruled an obvious target area PI in the endzone as an illegal contact. That placed the ball on the 4 yard line rather than the 1. Had the correct call been made, Fajardo would have been in for the goal line situation, and Ray would never have been hit.

That call still irritates me. Another turning point of the Argo season.

[Argo57]

That call still irritates me. Another turning point of the Argo season.

Valessi is quite pitiful to watch at the best of times.

[paulwoods13]

... there seems to be a recurring theme here.

Truer words were seldom spoke.

[Neely2005]

Are you comparing the athletic ability of Burris and Ray? Or the ability to stay healthy?

I'm comparing their age and their results.

[R.J]

Truer words were seldom spoke.
Am I wrong though Paul ?
3 left knee injuries and 2 throwing shoulder injuries in 5 seasons = a trend not a fad/fluke, no ?

[paulwoods13]

Fluke? Maybe. Trend? Maybe. Were the subsequent injuries further deterioration of the original injury? Or new injuries? I don't know the answer.

Regardless, I prefer to see how he does on the field rather than write him off based on what happened to him as long as four years ago. Many players have played at a high level after serious injuries. If he is a sitting duck back there because of poor o-line play or receivers not getting open, chances are he will get hurt (as virtually any QB might). If he is able to avoid taking many extra shots because of good o-line play and/or a quick-release passing attack, I can easily see him playing a full season (and beyond).

[R.J]

Ray is not a quick release QB. Pretty sure it's the same offense as well.

[AngeloV]

Ray is not a quick release QB. Pretty sure it's the same offense as well.

There is more to a quick released than throwing motion. The biggest key to a so called quick release is making a quick decision.

[R.J]

There is more to a quick released than throwing motion. The biggest key to a so called quick release is making a quick decision.
I'm aware, but is Ray going to magically be able to make a quicker decision now compared to say last season, just because Trestman is here ?
Ray seemed and had admitted that he was quick to the dump pass/checkdown last season, I expect to see more of the same. Also, I'm not sure why, but this idea that Ray is Calvillo and/or Burris is based on what ? (to be clear Angelo, that statement is not meant for you)

[argofan81]

I'm not sure why we keep debating the merits of Ray (especially before the season has started and we've had a chance to see him play with the team). The past is the past as they say....old management/coaches set the team up with the players (qbs) on the roster. We can say all we want that the team screwed up by keeping Ray and letting others go....but that was not done by either the current GM or current head coach and cannot be changed now. On the off season, who was available at QB that we didn't go after? Once the new GM and head coach were in place, who could they have traded for? The debate about Ray seems to implicate that they are making a mistake holding on to Ray but as of now, who are the alternatives for THIS season? Perhaps next year, things can be different....Does anyone know if any qbs might be available during free agency next season?

["Issues"Mcgee]

In the event of an awful start to the season, how long does it take for Popp to take over as head coach? I give it five weeks.

[R.J]

I'm not sure why we keep debating the merits of Ray (especially before the season has started and we've had a chance to see him play with the team). The past is the past as they say....old management/coaches set the team up with the players (qbs) on the roster. We can say all we want that the team screwed up by keeping Ray and letting others go....but that was not done by either the current GM or current head coach and cannot be changed now. On the off season, who was available at QB that we didn't go after? Once the new GM and head coach were in place, who could they have traded for? The debate about Ray seems to implicate that they are making a mistake holding on to Ray but as of now, who are the alternatives for THIS season? Perhaps next year, things can be different....Does anyone know if any qbs might be available during free agency next season?
James Franklin will be a free agent.

In the event of an awful start to the season, how long does it take for Popp to take over as head coach? I give it five weeks.
Zero chance of Popp taking over for Trestman.

[Rich]

Pretty sure it's the same offense as well.

Pretty sure it's not. Trestman is surely bringing a whole bunch of different looks. They don't call him The Professor for nothing. He told the town hall that when he first came to the CFL, he imported all his favourite NFL plays into the playbook and just added a guy to each one. You can bet he's bringing in some more new wrinkles this time around.

[Neely2005]

I just don't see how Ricky Ray can be considered "over the hill" even if he stays healthy. Last season he completed 74.5% of his passes, second-highest percentage of his career. His TD/INT ratio (2.5/1) was fourth-best of his career and just slightly behind his second-best of 2.7/1 -(2013 was an outlier at 10.5/1). His average gain per pass (8.0) was just 10th-highest out of the 13 seasons in which he played at least nine games, but basically where he has been throughout his career (8.0 last season, 8.3 career).

In his five years with the Argos, he has had a higher completion percentage (71.2 vs. 66.8), higher TD/INT ratio (2.5 vs. 1.6) and slightly lower avg gain (8.2 vs. 8.4) than in his first nine seasons. The only thing he is demonstrably worse at is staying off the injury list. When he's been healthy his play has been at least equal to, and arguably better than, what it was for the first nine years of his career.

Nah the numbers lie, Ray is over the hill and washed up. No chance that a QB could be successful at 37+ in professional football.

[OV Argo]

Pretty sure it's not. Trestman is surely bringing a whole bunch of different looks. They don't call him The Professor for nothing. He told the town hall that when he first came to the CFL, he imported all his favourite NFL plays into the playbook and just added a guy to each one. You can bet he's bringing in some more new wrinkles this time around.

We shall see there. Trestman learned to run a productive CFL offence, but it was pretty standard look: big reliance on pass with 5 pack set; one basic, same old run play to the single back. Hopefully, he can steer Ray clear of way too much short dump / check-down garbage that Millanovich loved in favor of throwing the ball well down the field lots; if Trestman was some sort of innovator or wanted to show some new CFL wrinkles, he might think of going with way more diverse ground game - good luck with that happening. It will be more like same old look IMO, but Trestman's play-calling might be a big advantage.

[R.J]

It's been talked about that Trestman was let go in Baltimore due to his reliance on the dump pass, and his lack of run game. While I do think Trestman is a heckeva better play caller, offensive mind, and Head Coach over Milanovich, I don't think people should be surprised if we see more of the same offence. A lot also depends on the QB as well obviously, but Ray has always been a high percentage passer, it's not like we have a Mike Reilly here to air it out.

[Argo57]

It's been talked about that Trestman was let go in Baltimore due to his reliance on the dump pass, and his lack of run game. While I do think Trestman is a heckeva better play caller, offensive mind, and Head Coach over Milanovich, I don't think people should be surprised if we see more of the same offence. A lot also depends on the QB as well obviously, but Ray has always been a high percentage passer, it's not like we have a Mike Reilly here to air it out.

My guess is the offence will be very similar to what we saw under Milanovich.
Game planning and in game adjustments should be improved with Trestman and his staff.

[R.J]

My guess is the offence will be very similar to what we saw under Milanovich.
Game planning and in game adjustments should be improved with Trestman and his staff.
Agreed.

[BATKINSON001]

People keep saying ray is done, I would rather have him than any other, especially willy.

[Rich]

Trestman is a heckeva better play caller, offensive mind, and Head Coach over Milanovich, I don't think people should be surprised if we see more of the same offence.

The same offence should become a heckeva better offence when it is run by a heckeva better play caller, offensive mind and head coach, all things being equal.

[Will]

People keep saying ray is done, I would rather have him than any other, especially willy.

Nobody disagrees with Ray > Willy. However, that doesn't mean that everyone sees Ray as the ideal solution.

[BATKINSON001]

Nobody disagrees with Ray > Willy. However, that doesn't mean that everyone sees Ray as the ideal solution.

Until we hear about someone else who isn't willy, ray is all we have.

[Will]

Until we hear about someone else who isn't willy, ray is all we have.

Pretty much.

[paulwoods13]

I'd like to see what Willy can do under Trestman. Yeah, I know it's the same system as Milanovich blah blah, but I still want to see for myself. Maybe he's terrible, maybe he's not. And since when is Fajardo nothing? Are we really writing him off as well? That's implied in "Ray is all we have."

[Will]

I'd like to see what Willy can do under Trestman. Yeah, I know it's the same system as Milanovich blah blah, but I still want to see for myself. Maybe he's terrible, maybe he's not. And since when is Fajardo nothing? Are we really writing him off as well? That's implied in "Ray is all we have."

That we know about.

[R.J]

Nobody disagrees with Ray > Willy. However, that doesn't mean that everyone sees Ray as the ideal solution.
Agreed.

I'd like to see what Willy can do under Trestman. Yeah, I know it's the same system as Milanovich blah blah, but I still want to see for myself. Maybe he's terrible, maybe he's not. And since when is Fajardo nothing? Are we really writing him off as well? That's implied in "Ray is all we have."
I don't think Fajardo's nothin, just not ready to a be starter from what I've seen. Admittedly through very limited sightings.

[Rich]

if Trestman was some sort of innovator or wanted to show some new CFL wrinkles, he might think of going with way more diverse ground game - good luck with that happening.

I don't buy this idea that Trestman didn't have any running game in Montreal. Twice his teams finished in the top 3 in team rushing yards. Compare that to the Milanovich-era Argonauts, who finished dead last in team rushing 3 times. Trestman's smart enough to know that you need a running game if you've got an immobile QB. I think the key is having depth at the position, and I think either Wilder or Hunter could end up being a real gamebreaker. They've got to find a way to dress two INT RB along with Coombs every game this year.

[KCargosfan]

I'm comparing their age and their results.

You implied that Ray's age isn't a factor because Burris was healthy in the latter end of his career outside of last year and put up numbers.

Ray has started 12 games in 2 seasons. Burris, 3 years older, never had injury issues until last year.

You are also ignoring the fact Burris is a far superior athlete to Ray.

I'm not comfortable with Ray being our starter and expect him to play 8 games or less. Hopefully I'm wrong and he finds the fountain of youth like Favre did with the Vikings.

[KCargosfan]

Nah the numbers lie, Ray is over the hill and washed up. No chance that a QB could be successful at 37+ in professional football.

Here is another number: Ray has started 12 games in 2 years. And Ray is a far worse athlete than most of the QBs that hang around that long.

What makes you think Ray can play a good amount of games this season? The fact that other people have past 37? Great logic.

[KCargosfan]

Am I wrong though Paul ?
3 left knee injuries and 2 throwing shoulder injuries in 5 seasons = a trend not a fad/fluke, no ?

Some people on here seem to think Father Time isn't undefeated.

[KCargosfan]

I gather you are basing the over-the-hill contention entirely on his injury history, and you don't wish to address any of the other points I raised about his performance when healthy?

His injuries have been to different areas, and some of them have been fluky -- anyone (even a great athlete) could have been hurt in the same position. Arm strength was never his calling card. I disagree he's a worse athlete than Calvillo.

So injury history isn't relevant? Nor is age?

And my own pair of eyes watching the game. Stats don't tell the whole story.

The fact he never had a great arm should be a concern as at 37, unless he starts taking steroids, that will only get worse, as will mobility.

Calvillo was one of the faster semi-fat dudes I've seen. Ray is faster than he looks, but I'd take Calvillo in an obstacle course challenge.

[paulwoods13]

Last I looked, football did not require expertise at running obstacle courses.

[Neely2005]

I just don't see how Ricky Ray can be considered "over the hill" even if he stays healthy. Last season he completed 74.5% of his passes, second-highest percentage of his career. His TD/INT ratio (2.5/1) was fourth-best of his career and just slightly behind his second-best of 2.7/1 -(2013 was an outlier at 10.5/1). His average gain per pass (8.0) was just 10th-highest out of the 13 seasons in which he played at least nine games, but basically where he has been throughout his career (8.0 last season, 8.3 career).

In his five years with the Argos, he has had a higher completion percentage (71.2 vs. 66.8), higher TD/INT ratio (2.5 vs. 1.6) and slightly lower avg gain (8.2 vs. 8.4) than in his first nine seasons. The only thing he is demonstrably worse at is staying off the injury list. When he's been healthy his play has been at least equal to, and arguably better than, what it was for the first nine years of his career.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Ricky Ray of the <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos">@TorontoArgos</a> was the only QB without an INT from numbers to the boundary on both sides. 138.6 is ridiculous!<br>Details <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash">#CFL</a> <a href="https://t.co/6iKpk3CCv2">pic.twitter.com/6iKpk3CCv2</a></p>&mdash; Derek Taylor 🇨🇦🏈 (@DTonSC) <a href="https://twitter.com/DTonSC/status/867134341222150145">May 23, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[R.J]

The same offence should become a heckeva better offence when it is run by a heckeva better play caller, offensive mind and head coach, all things being equal.
I agree to a degree as I think Trestman is a considerably better coach than Milanovich, will most likely take over the play calling, and IMO is less conservative than Milo and Brady, but I still don't think the offensive plays will change much.

[jerrym]

I don't buy this idea that Trestman didn't have any running game in Montreal. Twice his teams finished in the top 3 in team rushing yards. Compare that to the Milanovich-era Argonauts, who finished dead last in team rushing 3 times. Trestman's smart enough to know that you need a running game if you've got an immobile QB. I think the key is having depth at the position, and I think either Wilder or Hunter could end up being a real gamebreaker. They've got to find a way to dress two INT RB along with Coombs every game this year.

I remember a couple of games where Trestman's Alouette's trounced the Argos primarily because of the ground game chewing up large yardage and then shifting to an air attack when the Argos made adjustments, something that Milanovich rarely, if ever, seemed to get the hang of.

[Rich]

I remember a couple of games where Trestman's Alouette's trounced the Argos primarily because of the ground game chewing up large yardage and then shifting to an air attack when the Argos made adjustments, something that Milanovich rarely, if ever, seemed to get the hang of.

I remember those games, Jerry, that Als O-Line was blowing us away. Maybe The Professor really will surprise all the skeptics with a much bigger commitment to the running game this year. Maybe he'll trailblaze a new direction for CFL offences, just like he did his first time around.

[Al&Kat]

OK for what it's worth, I want to go on the record. Keeping in mind our last game is
on the road, in BC, where strangely the Argos WON recently, and remembering the Argos
win in BC about once every ten years, I say they go into the last game at 7-and-10, still with a
chance to be in the playoffs, and they lose in BC, Argos finish 7-and-11 and the Alouettes finish at
8-and-10 to get third place (agreed there will be no West cross-over in 2017). NOW YOU KNOW.

[Al&Kat]

And oh yeah, one more point to make about 2017, on behalf of all of us STH...
PLEASE PLEASE may the Argos win More than twice at Home this year.

[Will]

The Argos were the worst team in the CFL in 2016 finishing 5-13. The coaching staff has undergone a complete overhaul with Scott Milanovich resigning and moving to Jacksonville to be the QB coach and Jim Barker being fired. They were replaced by Marc Trestman and Jim Popp respectively. The complications in putting these two in place meant that the Argos missed out on several marquee free agents. With training camp a few weeks away I wanted to ask people what their honest, realistic expectations were for this upcoming season:

Offence

The Argos will go as far as Ricky Ray's health will take them. His injury history has been well documented and I will not repeat it. Drew Willy, Jeff Mathews and Cody Fajardo compete for his backup spots.

I'm comfortable with the situation at running back.

The Argo receiving corps even with S.J Green is still a little thin. Fuller has an injury history and Paden is inexperienced as is Jones and Wylie. The Argos could use some luck here.

The o-line still makes me nervous. The LT spot is still up in the air and the right side of the OL is still a concern too.

Defence

The D-line should be solid.

The Argos need a MLB.

I hope the secondary will improve with a year of experience under their belts.

Anyways, I'm hoping that the Trestman/Popp duo gives the Argos some intangibles, and if some guys stay healthy and emerge then maybe we can pull a shocker on the rest of the league. It's contingent on many things, but hoping things break the Argos way for once.

Ray is east candidate for MOP.

RB situation stabilize itself by end of season.

S.J Green was everything and more! Fuller was disappointing, Paden was cut as was Wylie. Edwards stepped up as #2 and Coombs played well (when healthy). Hopefully, a 3rd receiver will solidify himself behind Green and Edwards next year.

OL was up and down all year.

D-line was more than solid. 1st in sacks and #1 against run.

Argos need a MLB: got one!

Secondary was improved though many of the faces were new.

Trestman/Popp duo was great!

[ArgoZ]

At this time I really don't see an improved team over the one that won 5 last season. I think the coach and hopefully a few surprises in camp can get at least 4 more wins. 9-9. I decidedly to bump the thread after it was mentioned in another thread and also to brag that I called it, LOL. Most of us had realistic expectations and were pretty close in our predictions for the Argonauts but not so much for other teams. A good read to cap off the year.

[R.J]

Ray staying healthy without question was one of the biggest reasons for the turnaround this season. Popp bringing back Ball, and bringing in Trestman can't be overlooked either. Pleasently surprised that we lead the league in sacks, had to double check that as we were without Butler and Lemon for awhile.

[Argofan_1000]

Ray staying healthy without question was one of the biggest reasons for the turnaround this season. Popp bringing back Ball, and bringing in Trestman can't be overlooked either. Pleasently surprised that we lead the league in sacks, had to double check that as we were without Butler and Lemon for awhile.

team all back, rested, healthy and hungry. I'd say that's a good formula for success. Offence will have 13 men. It's going to be fun. Someone make sure the weatherman knows

[R.J]

team all back, rested, healthy and hungry. I'd say that's a good formula for success. Offence will have 13 men. It's going to be fun. Someone make sure the weatherman knows
That could lead to some penalties, no ?

Maybe you meant us being the 13th man on defence ?

[gilthethrill]

That could lead to some penalties, no ?

Maybe you meant us being the 13th man on defence ?

It's puzzling being at the game and watching Argo fans make noise while the team is on offence.

[R.J]

It's puzzling being at the game and watching Argo fans make noise while the team is on offence.
Drives me nuts. The worst is when we're told to make noise when the team is on offense, Landry should know better.

[gilthethrill]

Drives me nuts. The worst is when we're told to make noise when the team is on offense, Landry should know better.

I don't recall Landry making that request when the Argos have the ball...just fans doing it on their own is what I have noticed.

[ArgoGabe22]

I don't recall Landry making that request when the Argos have the ball...just fans doing it on their own is what I have noticed.

Yeah, I don't recall Landry doing it either. I remember it appearing on the video screen at the Dome along with poorly timed t-shirt giveaways.

[R.J]

I don't recall Landry making that request when the Argos have the ball...just fans doing it on their own is what I have noticed.
It's happened a couple of times this season and last season. Always seems to happen during our first offensive possession.

[Wobbler]

Do you think it's enough noise to actually impair communication? It's hard to tell on TV, but it doesn't seem so to me. No harm in some, uh, harmless pre-snap enthusiasm.

[Will]

I don't recall Landry making that request when the Argos have the ball...just fans doing it on their own is what I have noticed.

Argos aren't only team with their fans cheering on offence.

[ArgoGabe22]

Argos aren't only team with their fans cheering on offence.

Ottawa is 10x worse but as The Dictator once pointed out, it might mean there are new fans out in the crowd. So as annoying as it may be, I did hear more noise/cheering on offence last home game. The last thing you want to do is tell them to go take their noise home instead lol.

[ArgoGabe22]

I decidedly to bump the thread after it was mentioned in another thread and also to brag that I called it, LOL. Most of us had realistic expectations and were pretty close in our predictions for the Argonauts but not so much for other teams. A good read to cap off the year.

I too predicted that 9-9 record is possible. Where is my prize? :D

[Will]

Ottawa is 10x worse but as The Dictator once pointed out, it might mean there are new fans out in the crowd. So as annoying as it may be, I did hear more noise/cheering on offence last home game. The last thing you want to do is tell them to go take their noise home instead lol.

I know, I know.

[Will]

Ray staying healthy without question was one of the biggest reasons for the turnaround this season. Popp bringing back Ball, and bringing in Trestman can't be overlooked either. Pleasently surprised that we lead the league in sacks, had to double check that as we were without Butler and Lemon for awhile.

It was a strange season for sack totals--Charleston Hughes led the league but only with 11. While the Argos pass rush was not as strong as earlier in the season you did have guys like Dylan Wynn and Justin Tuggle stepping up with Lemon and Butler out of the lineup.

[Joe Barnes]

Ottawa is 10x worse but as The Dictator once pointed out, it might mean there are new fans out in the crowd. So as annoying as it may be, I did hear more noise/cheering on offence last home game. The last thing you want to do is tell them to go take their noise home instead lol.

Maybe they need to run the 'Sssshhhh' graphic a few times, on Argo 1st downs, on the video board and sideline board (what is that electronic advertising board that runs the length of the east sideline called, anyway?). If there are new fans at the game, they may not realize what their duties are!

[R.J]

Ottawa is 10x worse but as The Dictator once pointed out, it might mean there are new fans out in the crowd. So as annoying as it may be, I did hear more noise/cheering on offence last home game. The last thing you want to do is tell them to go take their noise home instead lol.
Ottawa was really bad their first season, but I don't recall it being that bad as of late.

[gilthethrill]

Maybe they need to run the 'Sssshhhh' graphic a few times, on Argo 1st downs, on the video board and sideline board (what is that electronic advertising board that runs the length of the east sideline called, anyway?). If there are new fans at the game, they may not realize what their duties are!

I fans I notice doing it are "old white guys" like myself.

[Joe Barnes]

I fans I notice doing it are "old white guys" like myself.

Maybe they are over excited to be out of the house!

[Rich]

I don't buy this idea that Trestman didn't have any running game in Montreal. Twice his teams finished in the top 3 in team rushing yards. Compare that to the Milanovich-era Argonauts, who finished dead last in team rushing 3 times. Trestman's smart enough to know that you need a running game if you've got an immobile QB. I think the key is having depth at the position, and I think either Wilder or Hunter could end up being a real gamebreaker. They've got to find a way to dress two INT RB along with Coombs every game this year.

Well I was right about this but as I have confessed before, I was wrong about Ray for a long time. Here's what I can't figure out about Ricky Ray: he looks like he's moving a little quicker this year. Last year he moved in the pocket like he was wearing snowshoes, but in the last few games he's been jumping up into the pocket and evading the rush like I've never seen him do it before.

Maybe his knees are feeling better this year, but I think the big difference might be improved O-iine play, giving Ricky a reliable pocket to escape into more often.

[Neely2005]

I don't recall Landry making that request when the Argos have the ball...just fans doing it on their own is what I have noticed.

Same here. They should play the video telling fans when to cheer more than once. They usually only play it once and it's before the game even starts.

[Neely2005]

Well I was right about this but as I have confessed before, I was wrong about Ray for a long time. Here's what I can't figure out about Ricky Ray: he looks like he's moving a little quicker this year. Last year he moved in the pocket like he was wearing snowshoes, but in the last few games he's been jumping up into the pocket and evading the rush like I've never seen him do it before.

Maybe his knees are feeling better this year, but I think the big difference might be improved O-iine play, giving Ricky a reliable pocket to escape into more often.

The O Line still needs improvement IMO. IIRC Ray was still sacked more than any other quarterback this season.

[Argo57]

Well I was right about this but as I have confessed before, I was wrong about Ray for a long time. Here's what I can't figure out about Ricky Ray: he looks like he's moving a little quicker this year. Last year he moved in the pocket like he was wearing snowshoes, but in the last few games he's been jumping up into the pocket and evading the rush like I've never seen him do it before.

Maybe his knees are feeling better this year, but I think the big difference might be improved O-iine play, giving Ricky a reliable pocket to escape into more often.

The O-Line has been much improved since Himebauch arrived but IMO James Wilder’s emergence as a legit running threat has stopped our opponents from simply pinning back and pressuring Ray (as was happening before).

[gilthethrill]

The O-Line has been much improved since Himebauch arrived but IMO James Wilder’s emergence as a legit running threat has stopped our opponents from simply pinning back and pressuring Ray (as was happening before).

The line was at such a disadvantage without a running game. Really hope the team can keep Himebauch on the staff long term. Does Deane replace Washington at guard when he is healthy?

[AngeloV]

The O Line still needs improvement IMO. IIRC Ray was still sacked more than any other quarterback this season.

That number has significantly decreased since the arrival of Jonathan Himebauch. IMO, he has been the biggest difference maker for the O since his arrival.

[Jon Gonzo]

The O-Line has been much improved since Himebauch arrived but IMO James Wilder’s emergence as a legit running threat has stopped our opponents from simply pinning back and pressuring Ray (as was happening before).

Agree. And we've all been talking about a dominant running game around here forever. It changes everything and makes everyone look, and play better. See the confidence the O-Line grabs? You can actually see it in their demeanor. They are bulls that want to the gate to open so they can start bucking downfield.

The timing of Himebauch's positive arrival, Brandon Washington to RG, and the Wild Thing all together; has all worked out so well, that I would not be surprised if this team actually won the Grey Cup.

Seasons turn like that, especially in this league. We have been witness to such positive O.Line turnarounds here before and it has resulted in paydirt.

BTW, kudos to all Argo fans here. Looking back at this thread was rather impressive. Many (most) of us had some very interesting, and perceptive observations heading into this season.

[jerrym]

Agree. And we've all been talking about a dominant running game around here forever. It changes everything and makes everyone look, and play better. See the confidence the O-Line grabs? You can actually see it in their demeanor. They are bulls that want to the gate to open so they can start bucking downfield.

The timing of Himebauch's positive arrival, Brandon Washington to RG, and the Wild Thing all together; has all worked out so well, that I would not be surprised if this team actually won the Grey Cup.

Seasons turn like that, especially in this league.

I agree. Wilder's running and the dramatic improvement in the OL's performance have been mutually reinforcing leading to the Argos peaking at just the right time.

[ArgoZ]

I too predicted that 9-9 record is possible. Where is my prize? :D A beer at the tailgate?

[smokeslet'sgo]

I just went through this thread again, and unless I'm mistaken or missed something not a single person predicted a Grey Cup berth for us this year. Most were doubtful we'd even be better than last year. Regardless if we win or lose next week, you can't help but be proud of this team and what we did this year.

[timlb01]

Unblievable result this year. Popp and Trestman are unreal. There is no way this happens if they did not bring those guys in. Amazing year and hopefully we will all be happy next Sunday night!!!

[RB957]

I just went through this thread again, and unless I'm mistaken or missed something not a single person predicted a Grey Cup berth for us this year. Most were doubtful we'd even be better than last year. Regardless if we win or lose next week, you can't help but be proud of this team and what we did this year.

100% agree.

[Joe Barnes]

Unblievable result this year. Popp and Trestman are unreal. There is no way this happens if they did not bring those guys in. Amazing year and hopefully we will all be happy next Sunday night!!!

Absolutely! Great job Argos, and thank you. What a ride it is!