Is this a forum for praise and criticism of Argos Moves?

[1971GreyCup]

As a business owner, I find utility in customer criticism. Like most businesses, we constantly survey customers for constructive feedback. 'We love you and love everything you do' isn't very useful feedback.

Studies actually show that 96% of unhappy customers don't complain, and 91% of those simply leave and never come back. Not promising numbers for businesses going through tough times.

I am not sorry that I'm alarmed with the events that led to 3,500 STHs. Management are custodians of a storied Canadian institution in decline. They have a critical responsibility.

This is a site of about 50 active users. It isn't treasonous to use this forum to voice displeasure and offer what might be considered constructive criticism and input to ameliorate a difficult situation.

The sign of an excellent management team is one that accepts input/criticism and uses it to improve the outcome.

We know that Argos read this forum. What better way to get our point across, than to voice it here?

Given that the only other option is to leave quietly and without complaint, I'll choose Option B and fight the good fight.

[Jon Gonzo]

As a business owner, I find utility in customer criticism. Like most businesses, we constantly survey customers for constructive feedback. 'We love you and love everything you do' isn't very useful feedback.

Studies actually show that 96% of unhappy customers don't complain, and 91% of those simply leave and never come back. Not promising numbers for businesses going through tough times.

I am not sorry that I'm alarmed with the events that led to 3,500 STHs. Management are custodians of a storied Canadian institution in decline. They have a critical responsibility.

This is a site of about 50 active users. It isn't treasonous to use this forum to voice displeasure and offer what might be considered constructive criticism and input to ameliorate a difficult situation.

The sign of an excellent management team is one that accepts input/criticism and uses it to improve the outcome.

We know that Argos read this forum. What better way to get our point across, than to voice it here?

Given that the only other option is to leave quietly and without complaint, I'll choose Option B.


All pom-poms and double blue coloured glasses? Not for me. Why? Because that isn't realistic and doesn't actually serve a purpose other than to assuage some boyhood fantasy that our chosen teams are mystical entity's and can do no wrong. I got over that at 18. If frank, open Football talk is a problem I too can and will move along. I sought this place out because there are few places in the world anymore to talk about this football team, which unto itself is a problem isn't it? Maybe some fans want this team to themselves? Like a cannibal tribe in the rain forest. Stay thick in the bushes, and eat anyone who comes anywhere near.

[Neely2005]

Yeah the mentality that the Argonauts can do no wrong got old a long time ago. As did the refrain that this is ArgoFANS. Fans can be critical, no need for leafitis.

[ArgoGabe22]

All pom-poms and double blue coloured glasses? Not for me. Why? Because that isn't realistic and doesn't actually serve a purpose other than to assuage some boyhood fantasy that our chosen teams are mystical entity's and can do no wrong. I got over that at 18. If frank, open Football talk is a problem I too can and will move along. I sought this place out because there are few places in the world anymore to talk about this football team, which unto itself is a problem isn't it? Maybe some fans want this team to themselves? Like a cannibal tribe in the rain forest. Stay thick in the bushes, and eat anyone who comes anywhere near.

If frank, open football talk is the forums purpose then shouldn't we allow a difference of opinion and have a discussion where points can be challenged in a civil manner? I'm seeing too much I'm right, you're wrong, you must get paid by the Argos to defend them like that. Not exactly open discussion IMO, if we try to silence those who may have a different perspective.

Everyone needs to continue posting, the good and the bad but let's not try to make subtle shots to those who disagree with our posts within our posts. Really defeats the purpose of having a open discussion IMO.

[Jon Gonzo]

If frank, open football talk is the forums purpose then shouldn't we allow a difference of opinion and have a discussion where points can be challenged in a civil manner? I'm seeing too much I'm right, you're wrong, you must get paid by the Argos to defend them like that. Not exactly open discussion IMO, if we try to silence those who may have a different perspective.

Everyone needs to continue posting, the good and the bad but let's not try to make subtle shots to those who disagree with our posts within our posts. Really defeats the purpose of having a open discussion IMO.


Does one happen because of the other? Probably. Its not a unique tug of war that I have seen on other sites and for other sports. Neely and I will vouch for that! (;

Regardless, I think if we debate *points* and we don't make it *personal* then yes, it is easier to stay on topic. Debate is a good exercise in my books.
Both red wires and black wires. When it goes personal, it'll get wild, yes. That's a bit of a fight then. Hey, if people want a fan site that is all positive all the time, my point is, that I will tune out because that isn't realistic, and that is boring.

When I first started posting, I was warned by several members who told me about the ways of the board, and that several good members had been chased away. I was asked to keep posting after I made an effort to prove a point, and then got hushed by negativity. There are nabobs on every site like this. I am being honest; and the team has the same issue.....new blood is NECESSARY. Open minds, accept different slants and ideas. They are not interlopers; they are CUSTOMERS.

[Wobbler]

Some of you guys take yourselves way too seriously.

[Argos1983]

Growth comes from an intellectual and civilized debate - when we only want one point of view to be espoused by all, the world turns into quite a dangerous place (and frankly a boring place in terms of sports discussion) --- ok, we all agree that Connor McDavid is good at hockey, now what? The debate over which player is better (Matthews or McDavid?), or how you want to build a franchise to achieve success (buy high priced free agents or "tank" and build through the draft), or how we can sell more tickets to this product that we love yet most of the city is apathetic towards....etc....this is what makes things interesting!

A "discussion" board should lead to "discussion" not threats or petty jabs at one another -- more harm has been done unto the world in the name of "being right" (and the corollary of someone else is obviously "wrong") than anything else I would imagine....the scary part is that if we can't even get along in a civilized manner as fans of the same team in terms of "supporting" this franchise --- how on earth can we expect the public at large to build a groundswell of support behind this team? we should be leaders in terms of having a constructive dialogue with management (and each other), to build this franchise into something that we can again be proud of --- anyone who thinks all is ok when we have 3500 STHs is really looking at things in a glass is half full mindset (and they are entitiled to that viewpoint), however, it is also not a crazy notion to suggest that some things need to be changed and attempted by this franchise that are new and different as clearly any business model will tell you that we aren't selling enough seats to make this a viable financial entity for someone to invest in, other than to lose money repeatedly....never mind the product on the football field which finished in last place last year and did not yield the first pick in the draft due to a trade for a QB (over which we can have a civilized debate as to the merits of such a move).....

I know that I have been in contact with some management members that do read this board --- reach out to them - their email addresses/phone numbers aren't hard to find - if they choose not to respond, then that is their loss as a business in terms of being responsive to their customers --- but at least we should try to constructively try to help, and not destructively tear each other down. So far, I have had response from management in quite vivid detail when I have put forward my thoughts and ideas --- the reality is that their jobs depend on it too - if this thing contnues to be unsuccessful financially and on the field, I assure you more jobs will get lost and more turnover will occur --- I think I heard somwehere that the definition of idiocy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result....time to try something different, on occassion we might just surprise ourselves.....

[paulwoods13]

All views should be and IMO are welcome on this board. But I have long since lost any tolerance I had for personal criticism along the lines of what I see all too frequently here. Too often, individuals who disagree with someone are essentially declared to be idiots. Not acceptable. I have blocked some users whose views I am actually interested in because their lack of civility went way beyond tedious into offensive. I don't see why it's not possible to disagree without resorting to name-calling. I've been guilty of that myself from time to time, but have made a determined effort over the past year-plus to debate on the merits of the issue rather than the brainpower or ideology of the debater. I wish everyone would take the same approach.

[Will]

Yes the name of this website is argoFANS, but I don't want this to mean that we blindly approve everything that the Toronto Argonauts Football Club does. However, there is going to be a diversity of voices here as a result. Should it be a surprise that people will disagree with what they may view as unwarranted criticism of the team? In my mind absolutely not nor should there be any surprise that there is going to be criticism in what is arguably the most tumultuous time in the team's history. This labeling of people being too loyal or not loyal enough is asinine IMO and needs to stop. We are all fans of the same bloody team here and we all want it to succeed.

[AngeloV]

I've never had an issue with constructive criticism. It's just my view that some posters have gone really over the top as of late. It actually seems to border on hatred towards the front office. The season is just weeks away. Why all the pessimistic points of view for a season that has not even started yet?

[Mulder]

Can't wait for football season to start so people start debating about performance of the team.

[1971GreyCup]

Let's all look forward to the Town Hall tonight. Rookie Camp starts in 9 days?

[Will]

Can't wait for football season to start so people start debating about performance of the team.

Amen to that!

[AngeloV]

Let's all look forward to the Town Hall tonight. Rookie Camp starts in 9 days?

This is something we can agree on.

[MikeKutti]

Hey all,
We welcome all honest critique (good and bad) of our team, our game day, and anything off-field related to our club. As someone pointed out, many of the Argos staff read the forum since it helps us with our decision making. You may not always agree with decisions the club makes, but this forum is a great way to measure the pulse of our decisions, and the opinions of our loyal and passionate fans.
Looking at a few threads in this forum, I think that you all do a good job of policing against personal attacks and ‘trolling.’ Sticking to debating the ideas rather than name calling is key for fans to have continued positive dialogue with the club.

[1971GreyCup]

Hey all,
We welcome all honest critique (good and bad) of our team, our game day, and anything off-field related to our club. As someone pointed out, many of the Argos staff read the forum since it helps us with our decision making. You may not always agree with decisions the club makes, but this forum is a great way to measure the pulse of our decisions, and the opinions of our loyal and passionate fans.
Looking at a few threads in this forum, I think that you all do a good job of policing against personal attacks and ‘trolling.’ Sticking to debating the ideas rather than name calling is key for fans to have continued positive dialogue with the club.

Well said Mike! I look forward to meeting you tonight.

[1971GreyCup]

This is something we can agree on.

Agreed! As said in Casablanca, AngeloV, "I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.”

I look forward to seeing you tonight.

[paulwoods13]

Should be a good event. Let's hope we all get all the answers we want. (Altho we already know they are not bringing back the boat logo as primary -- at least not yet!)

[ArgoZ]

Should be a good event. Let's hope we all get all the answers we want. (Altho we already know they are not bringing back the boat logo as primary -- at least not yet!)

I'd be happy to see it on more merchandise. I love the boat t shirt I have. Throwback logos are always cool.

I don't find this site any more negative than any other fan board. Last seasons disappointments all around, understandably caused more than usual.

[Stevoman]

Constructive criticism and no personal attacks...as the way it should be.

[R.J]

You can love the team, and still find it's faults. Heck you can be pissed off at the team, and still be a loyal fan. Not sure why some take such issue with some being negative towards the team - The Argonauts were the worst team in 2016, and the team with the least yards per pass in 2016. For some reason some thought BMO was going to be the cure all (never understood that one). And, lastly: business mistakes were made as well, which shouldn't have happened considering Copeland worked with the Argonauts at the league level (also grew up and still lives here), and was thought to know what the issues here were.

I can understand that people have grown tired of the negativity, but honestly what did some reasonably expect considering what was 2016 ?
I'm not one for blindly following anything, I think you can be a die hard, and still be objective, and call me crazy "expect more".
I'd rather see the passion and "negativity", then the apathy that we've seen way too often towards the Argonauts.