AJ Jefferson released by the REDBLACKS

[Wobbler]

Wow (http://ottawacitizen.com/sports/local-sports/redblacks-dump-db-jefferson). Yes, he looked bad on Green's TD but anyone can stumble. He must have been consistently poor to be released this quickly.

I'm starting to understand why we have an almost entirely new secondary this year.

[argolio]

Can't say I'm surprised.

[Wobbler]

Really? Please elaborate.

[ArgoGabe22]

Jefferson claims he only lined up against Green 3 times.

[OV Argo]

D-backfield play is a huge concern for a lot of CFL teams now - not enough good DBs?; or maybe weak defensive schemes that expose DBs a lot in coverage?

Pretty well zero worry for CFL defences now to get exploited by a consistent ground game. Why not have at least 6 pure DBs in the game most of the time - and a mix of zone & man coverages? Even a cover OLB (usually a converted DB anyways), lined-up close to the line and then turning his back to chase a receiver is IMO poor defensive scheme. Go with lots of pass rush (at least 5 on obvious passing downs - maybe 5 pure D-line types = 3 big bodies in the middle and 2 pass rush DE types); one LB only and 6 DBs behind them? = a fifty-one D look ? You could also blitz the LB or the extra free safety type. One of the athletic DEs could also drop in coverage at times and playing games with 2 safeties who give different looks could confuse QB reads who like to see where the one safety is lined-up.

Scape-goating a DB who gets burned in one game and cutting him is IMO mostly B$. Cutting dumb, myopic defensive coaches might make more sense.

[Wobbler]

Pretty well zero worry for CFL defences now to get exploited by a consistent ground game. Why not have at least 6 pure DBs in the game most of the time - and a mix of zone & man coverages?
I think you're right, OV.

[AngeloV]

I think you're right, OV.

Teams have used 6 DB's as a base for years. SAM is basically a cover LB played by a DB. I believe ,Don Matthews started this trend when he converted Don Wilson to that spot in the 90's.

[Jon Gonzo]

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing him back in at CB with Rico dropping back to HB. Ottawa needed an example, and AJ's was highlight reel. This guy is still young and athletic enough. He can bring the big play. He'd be motivated.

[mchesher03]

Did those with a better eye than me think he was bad last year as well? I think you could pick on almost anyone in our secondary last year if you felt up to it, in fairness they also didn’t benefit from a lot of pressure on opposing QB’s either…

I’m sort of surprised by this but maybe I had him overrated in my mind too.

[doubleblue]

D-backfield play is a huge concern for a lot of CFL teams now - not enough good DBs?; or maybe weak defensive schemes that expose DBs a lot in coverage?

Pretty well zero worry for CFL defences now to get exploited by a consistent ground game. Why not have at least 6 pure DBs in the game most of the time - and a mix of zone & man coverages? Even a cover OLB (usually a converted DB anyways), lined-up close to the line and then turning his back to chase a receiver is IMO poor defensive scheme. Go with lots of pass rush (at least 5 on obvious passing downs - maybe 5 pure D-line types = 3 big bodies in the middle and 2 pass rush DE types); one LB only and 6 DBs behind them? = a fifty-one D look ? You could also blitz the LB or the extra free safety type. One of the athletic DEs could also drop in coverage at times and playing games with 2 safeties who give different looks could confuse QB reads who like to see where the one safety is lined-up.

Scape-goating a DB who gets burned in one game and cutting him is IMO mostly B$. Cutting dumb, myopic defensive coaches might make more sense.

I think the no contact rule after five yards has exposed a lot of the DB's for their cover skills. Jefferson is just probably an injury a way from catching on somewhere again.

[R.J]

Jefferson looked bad last season, and hasn't looked that good so far this season either, so I'm not surprised that the Redblacks have let him go. We don't need him here, Popp can find better players.

[OV Argo]

Teams have used 6 DB's as a base for years. SAM is basically a cover LB played by a DB. I believe ,Don Matthews started this trend when he converted Don Wilson to that spot in the 90's.


My point is - you don't need a SAM (even if it is a converted DB) - who still lines up more like a linebacker, close to the line of scrimmage, and often ends up turning his back to chase a slotback, who often has a waggle start. The 6th DB should be more like another safety - who is often lined up deep (but plays games back and forth with the other safety - sometimes one or the other could be up close to the line) - and a deeper safety can often read better and then have the ability to come forward (or down hill as I call it) to close on the ball / receiver. IMO - there should almost always be a free DB, who is lined-up deeper and gets to read and come downhill, or maybe has to provide deep support. And having sometimes 2 of those guys on the D - both smart D players who can read well and are ballhawks - could do lots of damage in coverage. SAM backers starting close to the line can't do this job. And wimpy CFL safety play now - often smaller cover guys who aren't big hitters and who are asked to do man coverage - is a reason why there are so few INTs by safeties or big hits/tackles that strike fear in receivers anymore; Taylor Loffler seems like more of a throwback there. Rover is the proper (IMO) old term.

[gilthethrill]

A bit off topic, but while on the topic of defensive backs, why was Matt Webster playing corner for a little against Ottawa? Elinzondo recognized this and put Ellingson against him resulting in a big gain.

[AngeloV]

A bit off topic, but while on the topic of defensive backs, why was Matt Webster playing corner for a little against Ottawa? Elinzondo recognized this and put Ellingson against him resulting in a big gain.

Chamblin has done that a fair bit this year. I noticed it in both home games. Rotating both Webster and Woodson in.

[paulwoods13]

My point is - you don't need a SAM (even if it is a converted DB) - who still lines up more like a linebacker, close to the line of scrimmage, and often ends up turning his back to chase a slotback, who often has a waggle start. The 6th DB should be more like another safety - who is often lined up deep (but plays games back and forth with the other safety - sometimes one or the other could be up close to the line) - and a deeper safety can often read better and then have the ability to come forward (or down hill as I call it) to close on the ball / receiver. IMO - there should almost always be a free DB, who is lined-up deeper and gets to read and come downhill, or maybe has to provide deep support. And having sometimes 2 of those guys on the D - both smart D players who can read well and are ballhawks - could do lots of damage in coverage. SAM backers starting close to the line can't do this job. And wimpy CFL safety play now - often smaller cover guys who aren't big hitters and who are asked to do man coverage - is a reason why there are so few INTs by safeties or big hits/tackles that strike fear in receivers anymore; Taylor Loffler seems like more of a throwback there. Rover is the proper (IMO) old term.

The Argos' SAM doesn't line up near the LOS very often. Based on what I saw in the two home games, we often play what looks like a 4-2-6, and sometimes it ends up a 4-1-7, with both Ball and Vaughan dropping deep.

[argolio]

Really? Please elaborate.A receiver coming off an ACL injury just totally abused him. They bet on Jefferson to go back to his 2015 form but he looks worse than last year. And the Red Blacks probably have had more big plays from their secondary the last two years than any other team. They've come to rely on that.

Time to cut your losses.

[R.J]

A receiver coming off an ACL injury just totally abused him. They bet on Jefferson to go back to his 2015 form but he looks worse than last year. And the Red Blacks probably have had more big plays from their secondary the last two years than any other team. They've come to rely on that.

Time to cut your losses.
Let's be fair here, while Jefferson hasn't looked good in a season and 3 games, S.J Green isn't playing like a 32 year old receiver coming off serious knee surgery.

[ArgoRavi]

Chamblin has done that a fair bit this year. I noticed it in both home games. Rotating both Webster and Woodson in.

In other words, Canadians or Nationals are getting an opportunity to play cornerback. Interesting.

[mchesher03]

Let's be fair here, while Jefferson hasn't looked good in a season and 3 games, S.J Green isn't playing like a 32 year old receiver coming off serious knee surgery.

If you didn’t know SJ Green had the ACL injury last year, you wouldn’t be able to tell it based on his play so far this year. Forgot how good he really is.

[doubleblue]

Chamblin has done that a fair bit this year. I noticed it in both home games. Rotating both Webster and Woodson in.

I think that's a good idea to move the back ups in for a few plays for experience so they aren't thrown in cold when an injury occurs. (Re: Mitchell's injury in the TiCat game). Would like to see Noel get a few reps on the offense as well.

[OV Argo]

In other words, Canadians or Nationals are getting an opportunity to play cornerback. Interesting.


???

Woodson & Webster got in that game when injuries struck 2 starting import DBs. I have rarely, if ever, seen them on this Argo D otherwise.

[AngeloV]

If you didn’t know SJ Green had the ACL injury last year, you wouldn’t be able to tell it based on his play so far this year. Forgot how good he really is.


Funny thing is, as good as he is, and he's had a very good career, I don't ever recall him having a stretch of games like he has to start this season. Maybe because his prime seasons age wise came after AC retired and the Als had nobody capable of connecting with him consistently.

[ArgoRavi]

???

Woodson & Webster got in that game when injuries struck 2 starting import DBs. I have rarely, if ever, seen them on this Argo D otherwise.

It sounds like AV has seen them in games even when there were no injuries. Please correct me if I am wrong, AV.

[AngeloV]

It sounds like AV has seen them in games even when there were no injuries. Please correct me if I am wrong, AV.

Definitely. Owusa-Ansah has come off the field at times, and Murray occasionally has moved inside with Webster and Woodson both lining up in the secondary. This definitely happened in the BC game and after Mitchell's injury against Hamilton. Don't know for sure in the Ottawa game, but since Webster lined up on the corner when Ellingson caught the deep jump ball on him, I'm guessing it happened there too.

[R.J]

I'd have to agree with Angelo here, I've seen both Webster and Woodson on the field plenty of times without injury to one of the starters. Chamblin seems to like to give his secondary some breathers, most dcs like to rotate their dline.

[Jon Gonzo]

Today's Ottawa Sun;

Henry Burris also didn’t agree with the release of cornerback A.J. Jefferson on Monday. “When it comes to performance, A.J. is as good as anybody out there,” he said.

I submit that he would improve an already stingy looking Defense. Agreed, he wasn't great last season....but he was hurt all year long. I think he's got 1-2 more All Star Seasons in him.

[argolio]

Maybe he can return to some kind of decent form with another team, but you can't be a prime free agent signing and crap the bed right out of the gate.

[gilthethrill]

Injuries happen. Could be a fine depth acquisition.

[doubleblue]

Injuries happen. Could be a fine depth acquisition.

Yah I would be ok with AJ coming back and move Murray in to replace Harris. Kind of wish we could have kept Thomas Miles to back up Bear Woods, which would allow for an extra American DB dressed instead of Plummer. With so much passing in the game now you need that extra guy back there to rotate and back up.

[OV Argo]

I'd have to agree with Angelo here, I've seen both Webster and Woodson on the field plenty of times without injury to one of the starters. Chamblin seems to like to give his secondary some breathers, most dcs like to rotate their dline.


Didn't notice either of Woodson or Webster in the D-backfield tonight; also no second DE to give Lemon & Butler a rest; Finley played most reps at DT (and had some push along with a knock-down); Wynn had some decent pressure when he was in = both those guys might mean no need to rush Bishop back to play DT - rather see Waud get a look if he is ready.

[paulwoods13]

Didn't notice either of Woodson or Webster in the D-backfield tonight; also no second DE to give Lemon & Butler a rest; Finley played most reps at DT (and had some push along with a knock-down); Wynn had some decent pressure when he was in = both those guys might mean no need to rush Bishop back to play DT - rather see Waud get a look if he is ready.

Given that we got no sacks and little pressure (especially in the second half), I would welcome Bishop back asap. With him in there, the d-line was dominant for three weeks. We definitely need to be able to spell off Lemon and Butler from time to time. No DE these days can be expected to play every down and have lots left in the tank by the fourth quarter.

[AngeloV]

Given that we got no sacks and little pressure (especially in the second half), I would welcome Bishop back asap. With him in there, the d-line was dominant for three weeks. We definitely need to be able to spell off Lemon and Butler from time to time. No DE these days can be expected to play every down and have lots left in the tank by the fourth quarter.

I guess some only see what they want to see. With the exception of late 4th quarter against B.C. Argos had not been run against this year. Bishop is a beast on the inside, but I guess since he's not a sack guy or a Canadian he must suck. Utter stupidity.

[OV Argo]

Given that we got no sacks and little pressure (especially in the second half), I would welcome Bishop back asap. With him in there, the d-line was dominant for three weeks. We definitely need to be able to spell off Lemon and Butler from time to time. No DE these days can be expected to play every down and have lots left in the tank by the fourth quarter.


The Argos were facing a different O-line last night, and IMO probably the best they have faced this season so far.

Pretty well all other CFL teams have been rotating their D-lines a lot; the Argos did at DT last night but not at DE and maybe both Butler & Lemon were gassed some late in the game; of course if that superstar Bishop had been in at DT, the line probably would have had 10 or so sacks. What a frickin' laugh some of the party line/ double blue swill infested cry-babying we get here from some homers who object to anything other than what they've been told. Get lost. Priceless.

:shhhh:

[Argo57]

The Argos were facing a different O-line last night, and IMO probably the best they have faced this season so far.

Pretty well all other CFL teams have been rotating their D-lines a lot; the Argos did at DT last night but not at DE and maybe both Butler & Lemon were gassed some late in the game; of course if that superstar Bishop had been in at DT, the line probably would have had 10 or so sacks. What a frickin' laugh some of the party line/ double blue swill infested cry-babying we get here from some homers who object to anything other than what they've been told. Get lost. Priceless.

:shhhh:

Line play was a big factor last night, as you eluded to Winnipeg's O Line handled the Argos rush rather effectively while the Argonaut O-Line struggled with Ray getting rushed or hit on many plays.
Dropped passes in the end zones are also a complete piss off and have cost Ray at least 4 TD's this season.
This Argo O is much improved in both talent and execution with Trestman here but other teams still don't have much to worry about with the Argo running attack.

[Wobbler]

Finley looked fine yesterday when I noticed him. I was surprised that he was on the field so much (since Wynn was listed as the starter), but he didn't look out of place.

[Wobbler]

One of my major concerns is that for the fourth game in a row, we took more penalties than our opponent. This season we've taken almost twice as many penalties as our opponents (38 vs 22) for more than twice as many yards (358 vs 167). Despite obvious concerns about refereeing, most of those penalties (and most of the opponent penalties) were deserved. And it's not just one or two players - the infractions are spread pretty evenly. The coaching staff needs to address this before we become notorious.

[paulwoods13]

We got no sacks and we couldn't stop the run. In the previous three games we got 14 sacks and didn't get run on. One major change: Bishop.

[gilthethrill]

We got no sacks and we couldn't stop the run. In the previous three games we got 14 sacks and didn't get run on. One major change: Bishop.

I thought Winnipeg did a fine job establishing the run as well. Slowed up our bookends just slightly.

[paulwoods13]

I thought Winnipeg did a fine job establishing the run as well. Slowed up our bookends just slightly.

Absolutely, credit the Bombers. They dominated both lines of scrimmage. Our d-line had not been dominated at all before last night. IMO it was a combination of gassed DEs, the absence of Bishop and great o-line play by the Bombers (who I believe use three INTs on their o-line).

[OV Argo]

Finley looked fine yesterday when I noticed him. I was surprised that he was on the field so much (since Wynn was listed as the starter), but he didn't look out of place.

Finley playing way more reps than Wynn (who was listed as the starter) was a bit of a surprise, but he earned it with his play vs. the Ottawa; both guys looked pretty decent at DT and IMO a big upgrade over the mediocre Bishop - who continues to do little in terms of tackles, sacks or push/pressure in getting handed continued playing time at DT.

Might be nice to see another DE in the mix to help spell Lemon & Butler, at least a bit; might have to dress another import DE i guess to get there - Walker got zero opportunity = Chamblin has no use for him on D, and I guess draft pick Foster (super athletic DE who produced in the ex. season) needs more time to "develop".

[gilthethrill]

Finley playing way more reps than Wynn (who was listed as the starter) was a bit of a surprise, but he earned it with his play vs. the Ottawa; both guys looked pretty decent at DT and IMO a big upgrade over the mediocre Bishop - who continues to do little in terms of tackles, sacks or push/pressure in getting handed continued playing time at DT.

Might be nice to see another DE in the mix to help spell Lemon & Butler, at least a bit; might have to dress another import DE i guess to get there - Walker got zero opportunity = Chamblin has no use for him on D, and I guess draft pick Foster (super athletic DE who produced in the ex. season) needs more time to "develop".

Could Justin Tuggle go in at DE? I did not see him last night.

[OV Argo]

Could Justin Tuggle go in at DE? I did not see him last night.


Didn't he play a few reps at DE in previous games? - a LB who might be good at rush end? Rather see a natural, accomplished DE type be given a shot.

[Wobbler]

Didn't he play a few reps at DE in previous games? - a LB who might be good at rush end? Rather see a natural, accomplished DE type be given a shot.
Agreed, OV - we need to get Troy Davis some reps.

[gilthethrill]

Didn't he play a few reps at DE in previous games? - a LB who might be good at rush end? Rather see a natural, accomplished DE type be given a shot.

I thought he was used on special teams only?

[paulwoods13]

I think it's clear by now that the coaches see Tuggle as more of a fourth LB than a DE. I'm fairly sure he hasn't subbed in even once for Lemon or Butler. Four games is probably enough time to conclude he's not a rotation DE.

[Argo57]

Looks like AJ Jefferson has landed in Regina.

http://3downnation.com/2017/07/17/riders-agree-to-terms-with-db-a-j-jefferson/