Flutie to be honoured as an All-Time Argo

[ArgoGabe22]

There are a few non-Argo fans who feel he doesn't deserve All-Argo status since he only played 2 seasons, as well as not deserving to be recognized as the greatest Argos QB in history. Good timing to add Flutie with reunion in town but what about Dicky Thornton?

https://www.cfl.ca/2017/07/17/flutie-named-time-argo/

[mchesher03]

Agreed re: only 2 seasons but on the flip side, led 2 of the best squads in CFL history in my opinion. I dunno, I’m on the fence myself to be honest.

[doubleblue]

That's a tough one to call. Flutie gets my vote for the best Argo QB, but only 2 years and an all time Argo I don't know. But then the Argos used to go through QB's at quite a fast pace. 3 years was probably a long time for most.
But I look at players like Danny Nykoluk and Norm Stoneburg. Two long serving players and all time Argos. Were they the best players at their positions to ever play for the Argos? I don't think so. Several American players were better but their long serving time as Argos was a big factor. Maybe there should be an all time Argo list for Canadians and one for Americans.
I look at my all time Argo picture and I see many of the players were on those teams that broke our hearts every year at playoff time, if they got there, but we still loved them because they were there year after year

[paulwoods13]

It can be about excellence or longevity, but excellence trumps longevity IMO. Flutie was more dominant in his two years than any player in the history of the franchise, so he deserves all-time status even though he wasn't here long. He wouldn't deserve it in B.C., IMO, because of his two years there, only one was as a dominant force, and the team didn't win championships. But I have no issue with putting him on the banner in Toronto. There are definitely others who deserve recognition in future, including Thornton.

[Will]

Flutie as an all-time Argo has been, well I don't think you can call it controversial, but it is something that has come up from time to time on various incarnations of the forum. I believe Flutie was named the all-time Argo QB when that team was announced in 2007. You cannot argue with those statistics over those 2 years and the performance of the team on the field. Whether his longevity in Toronto is questionable may be a legitimate opinion. However, let's look at some of the other candidates at the QB position. Joe Krol is already an all-time Argo and I do not know enough about him to comment, but the years 1952-1981 weren't exactly full of great QB play in Toronto with a few aberrations (Rote in 1960, Theismann, etc.) so nobody is going to come from that era. We finally arrive at 1981 when the Argos traded Kevin Powell to the Rough Riders for Condredge Holloway. Now there is no doubt that Holloway was an excellent QB, but even his stint in Toronto has disadvantages. Holloway was an Argo from 1981 through 1986, but the only full season he really ended up playing I think was '81 and '82. In 1981 the team as a whole struggled so that's a write-off and in 1982 he won the MOP with 4,661 yards and 31 touchdowns. However, he platooned with Joe Barnes in 1983 and 1984 and while his stats were very good they do not reflect a full-seasons work. Should that work against him? Maybe, maybe not, but I can see someone making the argument. In 1985 he was injured for much of the season and by 1986 there was a toll on his body that impacted his play and he was mostly replaced by J.C Watts by the end of the season.

Matt Dunigan is a CFL hall-of-famer, but he (like Flutie) only played 2 seasons for the Argos. The Argos offence was excellent under his QBship, but he was injured ~50% of the time. The departure of Dunigan in '92 resulted in 20-52 until Flutie arrived. The Argos then go through a series of solid to horrible QBs between 1998 and 2002 before Damon Allen arrives. Allen is decent from 2003-2005, but had injury trouble as well. The QB position is unsettled again until Ricky Ray is traded for in 2012 and he has been fine, but again spent much time injured.

What I'm trying to get to is that (sadly) the QB position for the Argos has been a lot of short-term fixes or outright busts and that whenever the team gets a star QB (with exception of Flutie) they never seem to stay long and/or have injury trouble.

[ArgoRavi]

It can be about excellence or longevity, but excellence trumps longevity IMO. Flutie was more dominant in his two years than any player in the history of the franchise, so he deserves all-time status even though he wasn't here long. He wouldn't deserve it in B.C., IMO, because of his two years there, only one was as a dominant force, and the team didn't win championships. But I have no issue with putting him on the banner in Toronto. There are definitely others who deserve recognition in future, including Thornton.

The Argos, including playoffs, were 34-6 with Flutie as QB over those two marvelous seasons. That record speaks for itself.

[1971GreyCup]

Does anyone remember what Doug Flutie signed for in Toronto as a free agent in 1996?

[ArgoZ]

Does anyone remember what Doug Flutie signed for in Toronto as a free agent in 1996?

The Argos took over his contract, which paid 1 million Cdn per year. An amount that Calgary could no longer afford, in fact Flutie never fully recieved his salary due to Calgary's financial problems.

[1971GreyCup]

The Argos took over his contract, which paid 1 million Cdn per year. An amount that Calgary could no longer afford, in fact Flutie never fully recieved his salary due to Calgary's financial problems.

I recently saw a tweet about the CFL players Income as a current percentage of CFL revenues was 18% of $180 million. This was compared to 56% some time ago?

If Flutie made $1m in 1996, in 2017 dollars that is $1.9 million. I was thinking that BMO Field could be filled with a similar-type signings. Would a filled stadium, more advertising and executive suite sales exceed that size salary contract?

With 60% MLSE ownership of the Argos, would we see a move towards more marquee players? Larry Tannenbaun and George Cope clearly seemed to embrace "Doug Flutie Night". Trestman, Popp, Ball and Woods signings under the current cap are encouraging.

Toronto historically doesn't embrace perceived semi-pro sports. Certainly a league that insists that the players subsidize the owners isn't viable. Maybe with the departure of David Braley type ownership and the arrival of Jeff Hunt type and current Argos ownership, you may see a move back towards equitable revenue sharing. It wouldn't hurt to pay a QB starter more in the CFL than a fourth string PR player in the NFL.

[paulwoods13]

When Flutie was making $1M, virtually every team in the league was on life support. The 1996 Grey Cup was very nearly the last one. There wasn't enough money in the bank to give the players their game cheques that day -- Tim Hortons had to front the money to the league.

If and when every team in the league is turning a decent profit, I hope the players get a bigger slice of the pie. But it would be foolhardy to go back to the days of paying marquee players -- the economics didn't work then and they don't work now.

[paulwoods13]

It wouldn't hurt to pay a QB starter more in the CFL than a fourth string PR player in the NFL.

What QBs are available and better than the QBs we have, but not coming to the CFL because they can't make enough money?

[1971GreyCup]

An example Paul.

We lose players all the time who just retire. If the players are subsidizing the league, it isn't right. Just look at public AGMs published by Community teams.

Sooner or later the patient has to come off the morphine. I think this is certainly an issue Argos face. I think the 6% MLSE ownership understands this very clearly.

[doubleblue]

It's tough for the CFL finding good QB's now with the NFL adding more teams and starting to look at smaller players like Russel Wilson. Wilson back in the 60's, 70's and 80's would have be ticketed for the CFL because he is under 6 feet. Maybe even Drew Brees. Also the NCAA is not turning out small QB's much anymore. We're not seeing many good QB's the size of Flutie, Clements, Hollaway, Barnes, Dunnigan etc. coming out anymore.

[AngeloV]

. Also the NCAA is not turning out small QB's much anymore. We're not seeing many good QB's the size of Flutie, Clements, Hollaway, Barnes, Dunnigan etc. coming out anymore.

That's because today's bigger athlete is training differently where even the big QB's are now very athletic and mobile. The mobility advantage of a small athletic QB is no longer there.

As for paying more to get marquee guys up here, there are still only so many you can get, even for a million a season. The days of Leo Cahill being able to offer more money than the NFL to steal players were generations ago. It will never happen again. They just need to market the players they have here better, and if necessary go door to door to sell their brand to the general public. Bobby Ackles did this in B.C. when he was alive and they flourished for a few years because of it.

[Neely2005]

That's because today's bigger athlete is training differently where even the big QB's are now very athletic and mobile. The mobility advantage of a small athletic QB is no longer there.

As for paying more to get marquee guys up here, there are still only so many you can get, even for a million a season. The days of Leo Cahill being able to offer more money than the NFL to steal players were generations ago. It will never happen again. They just need to market the players they have here better, and if necessary go door to door to sell their brand to the general public. Bobby Ackles did this in B.C. when he was alive and they flourished for a few years because of it.

I agree that building the fanbase up via Grassroots methods is key to long term success. I think that the Argonauts have started this process this season with events like the Open Mic nights and bringing back things like Fan Day.

[doubleblue]

AngeloV wrote:
That's because today's bigger athlete is training differently where even the big QB's are now very athletic and mobile. The mobility advantage of a small athletic QB is no longer there.

Boy I don't know about that. What was your 40 time again? :)

[paulwoods13]

An example Paul.

We lose players all the time who just retire. If the players are subsidizing the league, it isn't right. Just look at public AGMs published by Community teams.

Sooner or later the patient has to come off the morphine. I think this is certainly an issue Argos face. I think the 6% MLSE ownership understands this very clearly.

Your specific statement was with respect to paying QBs more than NFL practice roster players, so I ask again -- are there QBs out there who are better than the QBs we have in this league, who would come to this league if only we would pay them more than QBs currently make? Yes, players retire all the time, and some of them retire because they're not making a lot of money. But other than Burris and Allen (both in their 40s), when was the last time a CFL QB who could still play at a high level retired?

[AngeloV]

AngeloV wrote:
That's because today's bigger athlete is training differently where even the big QB's are now very athletic and mobile. The mobility advantage of a small athletic QB is no longer there.

Boy I don't know about that. What was your 40 time again? :)

I played junior ball in 1988 and 89. Fastest time was 5.7. But then again, train was a foreign word to me. I thought it meant 10 cent wing nite.

:)

[Argo57]

I played junior ball in 1988 and 89. Fastest time was 5.7. But then again, train was a foreign word to me. I thought it meant 10 cent wing nite.

:)

5.7 (5 minutes 7 seconds)??
Sounds like we were on the same training program, hand the waitress $20 and wait for the wings to show up!

[1971GreyCup]

Your specific statement was with respect to paying QBs more than NFL practice roster players, so I ask again -- are there QBs out there who are better than the QBs we have in this league, who would come to this league if only we would pay them more than QBs currently make? Yes, players retire all the time, and some of them retire because they're not making a lot of money. But other than Burris and Allen (both in their 40s), when was the last time a CFL QB who could still play at a high level retired?

I guess I'd direct that question to GM Jim Popp. Is there a decent pool out of the additional 32 QB now 4th onNFL rosters that you wouldn't mind a hot at? In fact, I will ask him that question and some others that come to mind. He is very accessible.

I enjoyed the days when players played here and they did make better money than the NFL. I don't think it's a stretch for the CFL to pay more than NFL practice rosters.

[Neely2005]

Doug Flutie almost came back to the CFL:

http://3downnation.com/2017/07/25/doug-flutie-almost-came-back-cfl/

[Argo57]

Doug Flutie almost came back to the CFL:

http://3downnation.com/2017/07/25/doug-flutie-almost-came-back-cfl/

I remember when that was being discussed, would have been interesting but glad it didn't happen.

[AngeloV]

Doug Flutie almost came back to the CFL:

http://3downnation.com/2017/07/25/doug-flutie-almost-came-back-cfl/

I wonder if they would have talked about it had he not gone back to the NFL and had some success.

[paulwoods13]

I guess I'd direct that question to GM Jim Popp. Is there a decent pool out of the additional 32 QB now 4th onNFL rosters that you wouldn't mind a hot at? In fact, I will ask him that question and some others that come to mind. He is very accessible.

I enjoyed the days when players played here and they did make better money than the NFL. I don't think it's a stretch for the CFL to pay more than NFL practice rosters.

I'm very interested to hear what Popp says about this. Given how many bad QBs there are in the NFL (outside of the playoff teams), I find it hard to imagine there are fourth-stringers who would be better than Reilly, Mitchell, Jennings, Lulay, Ray, Collaros, Harris, Durant etc. if we could afford to pay them more than PR money.

I also enjoyed the days when the CFL could outbid the NFL for players, but that ceased in 1982 (with one exception since then -- Rocket Ismail).

Here is what SBNation reported last September re practice squads:

Practice squad players earn significantly less than players on the active roster, but they still take home a solid weekly paycheck. NFL practice squad players make a minimum of $6,900 per week that they are on the practice squad.

If a player remains on the practice squad for an entire regular season (at a minimum salary of $6,900 per week), he would earn a minimum of $117,300 over the full regular season if he keeps his spot on the practice squad. If a team makes the playoffs, these payments continue for as long as the team is in the playoffs.

To protect their players from other teams, or because they really like the potential of a given player, some teams pay their roster squad players significantly more. There is no limit to how much a team can pay a player on the practice squad, although the practice squad contracts do count against the salary cap.

The Patriots for example are one NFL team that consistently goes above and beyond the minimum practice squad rate. At certain points, the Pats have paid their entire practice squad weekly rates above the minimum salary. In 2015, the Rams paid supplemental draft pick OT Isaiah Battle $25,588 per week, which adds up to last year's $435,000 rookie minimum over 17 weeks, the highest amount ever paid to a practice squad player.

The upside of the practice squad is that if a player is called up to the 53-man regular roster, either by his own team or by another team, he automatically signs a contract with the $450,000 minimum NFL salary. And because three weeks of that contract are guaranteed, even if that player is released, waived or traded before the three weeks are up, being called up comes with a $79,411 guarantee (3/17th of $450,000).


So any player who lasts an entire season on NFL PR would earn minimum of $146,000 Cdn at today's exchange rate.

[OV Argo]

I guess I'd direct that question to GM Jim Popp. Is there a decent pool out of the additional 32 QB now 4th onNFL rosters that you wouldn't mind a hot at? In fact, I will ask him that question and some others that come to mind. He is very accessible.

I enjoyed the days when players played here and they did make better money than the NFL. I don't think it's a stretch for the CFL to pay more than NFL practice rosters.

Jim Popp loves signing ex-NFLers or any big name all-American players. He might be all ga ga over all sorts of NFL practice roster QBs (who make less than CFL starters); wether they are any good for the CFL or could beat out some current CFL 2nd or 3rd stringers, is another matter. They might in TC competition.

Be very glad the NFL thinkers currently have little to no use for top CFL QBs - Mitchell, Reilly, Collaros, Harris, Durant - will likely never get any NFL interest; I guess Jennings possibly could, but doubtful IMO; let the NFL super expert keep some of the stiffs they have at QB if they will leave the CFL best QBs alone. And the CFL has found some good young starters the past few seasons and have some other promising types in the wings - Franklin with the Esks; maybe Fajardo; Adams with the Als has superb QB skills IMO; maybe Bridge or Buckley. And nice to see Lulay come off the bench and show he can still play very well in BC; Masoli has looked very good at times as the Ticats 2nd stringer. CFL QBing is in pretty decent shape now IMO.

[Argo]

I remember when that was being discussed, would have been interesting but glad it didn't happen.

Doug, in the twilight of his NFL career this side of Y2K, became a chronic interception tosser. Further, playing for the Chargers against KC, he was very severely thumped (by a D lineman, IIRC), which incidentally started Drew Brees' career.

Flutie was wise to retire when he did, and we remember him as the great QB that he was.

[Will]

Doug, in the twilight of his NFL career this side of Y2K, became a chronic interception tosser. Further, playing for the Chargers against KC, he was very severely thumped (by a D lineman, IIRC), which incidentally started Drew Brees' career.

Flutie was wise to retire when he did, and we remember him as the great QB that he was.

If you actually look through some of his CFL statistics you will see that Doug did throw quite a few interceptions in his CFL career. He threw 24 in his breakout season in '91, 30 in '92 and 24 in '97. The difference between that and the NFL of course is that he made up for it in spades in other areas.

[argolio]

I guess I'd direct that question to GM Jim Popp. Is there a decent pool out of the additional 32 QB now 4th onNFL rosters that you wouldn't mind a hot at? In fact, I will ask him that question and some others that come to mind. He is very accessible.Most NFL teams keep three QBs on the roster, and some only dress 2 on game day. If any league has an additional pool of QBs right now, it's the CFL.