GAME THREAD / Week 10 / Toronto @ Calgary

[Wobbler]

Despite the fact that we looked unbeatable last week, I have a hard time believing that we're going to win this game. Calgary is a better team, and we have a patchwork secondary right now even if AK is somehow able to play. It sounds like Bishop will be back, but does he start over Wynn at this point? Getting Butler and/or Laing back would be more helpful but doesn't seem likely yet.

Prediction: Calgary 34, Toronto 24.

[RB957]

It is going to be a tough game, for sure. But last week's game was a great positive experience for the team and shows what they can accomplish. If they play smart and tough, and the game is close, win or lose I will be very happy and proud.

[gilthethrill]

Looking forward to being in attendance for my 1st CFL regular season game outside of the province of Ontario. Can't help but notice it seems like Calgary is looking ahead to playing Edmonton back to back. If Toronto can play anywhere close to how they played Saturday, the Double Blue sit at 500.
.

[jerrym]

Calgary is getting mainly good news on the injury front. Bo Levi Mitchell's sore shoulder, which was injured in the Lions' game, looks like its coming around and it is expected that he will play. Jerome Messam and Charleston Highes were also injured in the same game. Messam remains a question mark and even if Hughes isn't available, DL Junior Turner and Ja'Gared Davis have returned. DB Brandon Smith is also coming off the six game injured list. Edge: Calgary

[Wobbler]

If Messam sits I'd say we have a chance. Unfortunately it feels like Posey won't be back yet - we'd have heard something - so our offense will remain somewhat impaired.

[Argo]

Though an Argonauts victory is desired, in this game I have to pick Team Winning Formula.

[AngeloV]

Hard to go against Calgary at home. They've only lost 3 home games since the start of the 2014 season.



Unfortunately it feels like Posey won't be back yet - we'd have heard something - so our offense will remain somewhat impaired.

Frank Z says he will be returning this week.

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/08/23/about-time-for-poseys-return


Argos receiver DeVier Posey, barring something completely out of the ordinary, will be back in the lineup, an addition that is long overdue.

[Wobbler]

Terrific news!

[Will]

An important game for symbolic reasons and practical reasons. Symbolic in the fact that the Argos can prove that they are capable of defeating a western team and practical in that it gets us back to the .500 mark. The latter is key, in my opinion, because of the game the following Monday in Hamilton. The Tiger-Cats may be 0-8 but all bets are off when it comes to Labour Day and as some of us know the Tiger-Cats have upset better Argo teams in the Classic most notably in 1988 and 1991.

The key against the Stampeders will obviously be pass protection. Ricky Ray was injured in the last game against the Stampeders and that was due to him holding onto the ball too long, but the OL did struggle in that game too. Defensively, the key will be stopping Messam on the ground. Bo Levi Mitchell didn't shred the Argo offence yardage wise last time, but the Stampeders offence in that game was well-balanced and the Argos had no answers for them that night.

[Wobbler]

It's great that our offense will be near optimal. No Coombs, but it's unreasonable to expect everyone to be healthy halfway through the season.

On D, so much depends on who's healthy (enough). At DT, I *think* our top performers have been Wynn (recently) and Bishop (before he got hurt), so I'd start both of them and dress Finley and Gaydosh as backups (and subs). Whether or not Messam plays, Calgary will run the ball and the middle must be protected. In the secondary... I hope AK is OK.

[Wobbler]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Download the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> depth chart for tomorrow's road showdown with the <a href="https://twitter.com/calstampeders">@calstampeders</a>.<br><br> » <a href="https://t.co/IsFjHu14O5">https://t.co/IsFjHu14O5</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFLGameDay?src=hash">#CFLGameDay</a> <a href="https://t.co/spH4Ya5dxE">pic.twitter.com/spH4Ya5dxE</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/901103282994765824">August 25, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Very few changes. No Bishop, and Cash is off the roster too; was he actually hurt?

That secondary looks pretty... unfamiliar. Good luck, guys.

[Will]

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Very few changes. No Bishop, and Cash is off the roster too; was he actually hurt?

That secondary looks pretty... unfamiliar. Good luck, guys.

There's 1 new face in the secondary.

[Wobbler]

...but only one guy who was a Game 1 starter.

[Wobbler]

Mitchell and Messam are both on Calgary's 46, but Hughes is not. Good news for our pass protection at least.

[AngeloV]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Download the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash">#Argos</a> depth chart for tomorrow's road showdown with the <a href="https://twitter.com/calstampeders">@calstampeders</a>.<br><br> » <a href="https://t.co/IsFjHu14O5">https://t.co/IsFjHu14O5</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFLGameDay?src=hash">#CFLGameDay</a> <a href="https://t.co/spH4Ya5dxE">pic.twitter.com/spH4Ya5dxE</a></p>— Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/901103282994765824">August 25, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Very few changes. No Bishop, and Cash is off the roster too; was he actually hurt?

That secondary looks pretty... unfamiliar. Good luck, guys.

Wouldn't surprise me to see Black on the corner again and Vaughan at safety, moving Plummer back to SAM and Ball to WILL. It worked so well last week, and with Plummer in the line up, they would be better equipped to slow down Messam.

[gilthethrill]

Was hoping to see an experienced CB in Wooten replace AK on the corner. With Messam in the lineup I am surprised we are going light on the DT position with Bishop healthy. Did Cash even get any reps last Saturday? I hope AV is right about Vaughn at safety and Black at the other corner. Our defence is coming off its best game by far, I was hoping to keep it somewhat intact.

[Jon Gonzo]

A big test. I'll be watching the lineplay. If the Argos win, it'll start with them physically imposing their will on the line.

No Charleston Hughes; that is one big break for our young LT (Campbell). The O-line needs to continue it's improved play, and the D-line needs to keep doing what's its been doing.

Remember, the Redblacks tied these guys, and missed by 4 points in Calgary.

The story will begin to unfold and will be told early IMHO.

[1971GreyCup]

Our first ESPN3 experience last week went very well. Hopefully tos game will go off without a hitch.

[1971GreyCup]

Looking forward to being in attendance for my 1st CFL regular season game outside of the province of Ontario. Can't help but notice it seems like Calgary is looking ahead to playing Edmonton back to back. If Toronto can play anywhere close to how they played Saturday, the Double Blue sit at 500.
.

Enjoy! Stampeders fans are very accommodating to Eastern fans. Can't speak for Western fans.

[gilthethrill]

Enjoy! Stampeders fans are very accommodating to Eastern fans. Can't speak for Western fans.

Thanks Bill. I am excited. Expect an upset tonight!

[OV Argo]

I'm a bit concerned about the D = particularly the D-backfield with so little experience (though Murray & Black have lots of CFL experience) - haven't played together to gel as a unit - but maybe they surprise (and Mitchell has not looked that good with his passing lately). The D-line could help with a strong pass rush - Wynn has really come on as a force lately and Finley is still looking pretty good too (see zero reason to rush Bishop back in - those 2 have easily out-played him IMO); not sure why Cash has not played - dresssed last game, but out again ?; Gaydosh may come on strong with more work, and like a D-line that rotates often can be very effective; love to see Foster get a shot at some reps to see if he can be a pass rush force. Stopping Messam could be key, and Woods & Ball are quite capable against the run.

Ray might have another big passing day? Posey & Fuller are 2 big target wide-outs. Hope Ricky throws lots of medium to deep balls; and bang some run game for some balance, and maybe get Cross pounding into defenders with a few more touches.

[1971GreyCup]

Thanks Bill. I am excited. Expect an upset tonight!

After Argos/Als and Riders/Eskies games, it wouldn't be a surprise.

[argolio]

Just to show how stats can be deceiving, we had six sacks when we played them here, yet BLM still completed almost 80% of his passes and converted a lot of 2nd downs. He didn't have a good statistical game against BC, yet still came up with a few key completions in the 2nd half when they needed it.

I still won't a believe an East team can beat a West team until I see it. Having said that, Go Argos!!!

[AngeloV]

Thanks Bill. I am excited. Expect an upset tonight!

Keep the streak going gil. I do believe the Argos are 2-0 in games that you have attended this year.

[gilthethrill]

Keep the streak going gil. I do believe the Argos are 2-0 in games that you have attended this year.

I had to think about it but you are correct.....but I can't take all the credit, Max was there both times too!

[argotom]

Three for three, all games this weekend high scoring and classics.
In fact, this year the scoring is up big time and with virtually all games being super exciting.
The best year in recent memory.
I hope the Argos stay close.
It's up to the O line to protect Ricky and give him time to throw.
So far, he is my pick for the comeback player of the year.

[Wobbler]

Anyone know who the scratches are? It's a road game, so Hogie is busy elsewhere.

[argotom]

Boy that was a phantom roughing the kicker.

[Wobbler]

Oh, man, I'm so glad we challenged that.

[argotom]

No chance that pick by Vaughan is interference, the receiver tripped over his own feet.
TD has to stand.

[argotom]

Absolutely, a great challenge.

[argotom]

Our defence has been awesome so far, especially the line.

[Wobbler]

14 point play by Cassius Vaughn. Very nice.

Angelo was correct about our D configuration. "Don't trust the depth chart" indeed!

[Wobbler]

Damn, McEwan. A *center* can't just brush a rusher off. That was embarrassing.

Nice, uh, "sack" for Gaydosh. But thank goodness BLM tripped.

And now MORE penalties?!

But... we're redeemed by a clever play involving a fake to Whitaker and toss-to-Cross. Very nice, Declan!

[Neely2005]

Singleton really is a jackass.

[Wobbler]

Why did we hurry our punt with 0:53 on the clock instead of killing another ~12 seconds?

[argotom]

The D has been awesome, but they are spending way too much time on the filed.
Just heard Ricky has 76 yards passing, this has to pick up considerably in the second half or we have no chance to upset.

[Wobbler]

Dang. We're hanging in there, but Calgary is a better team. We need luck.

[argotom]

It's looking real bad after 3.

[Wobbler]

Gaydosh's "second" sack was deserved.

[PullTogether73]

When the team's defense outscores the offence, chances of a win aren't good.:(

[argotom]

Worst offensive production of the year.
Virtually no running game and never a threat passing, way too many check downs.
The Defense had a great first half, but could not hold on.
The special team with the return game was also abysmal.
Thank goodness we have the cats, but don't look now the RB are in the rear view mirror.

[OV Argo]

ZERO points by the offence and a loss ? - gee, what a shocker. Afraid to throw the ball downfield? - this is a very good Calgary secondary with all their starters in, but you still have to challenge them deep; Cross with the biggest play - he needs to get the ball more when he shows he can make yards; Fuller is doing zip, but i guess Noel rates zero playing time at receiver? run game - not worth mentioning anymore - Trestman has little use for it and the run blocking by the O-line is not that good.

Good game by the Argo D again - even with the revamped secondary; still not enough outside pass rush with Butler out, and Lemon is not near what he has been in the past, and Davis - although he has shown a few flashes - is just not good enough at DE; most CFL teams are going with a lot of D-line rotation and it often works with fresh guys helping to make plays; but not Chamblin with DEs; the back-ups get zero playing time basically - must be lacking something on their resumes.

[Stevoman]

The D played great but the O was tentative and slow. This is a game where a change of pace offence (hurry up with Fajardo or something) would come in handy. Green seemed off today too with 3 drops. Declan Cross continues to impress. Going to be a big labour day game next week!

[Wobbler]

We lost on the road in Calgary - no surprise.

Our D was surprisingly effective, but...

[ArgoRavi]

ZERO points by the offence and a loss ? - gee, what a shocker. Afraid to throw the ball downfield? - this is a very good Calgary secondary with all their starters in, but you still have to challenge them deep; Cross with the biggest play - he needs to get the ball more when he shows he can make yards; Fuller is doing zip, but i guess Noel rates zero playing time at receiver? run game - not worth mentioning anymore - Trestman has little use for it and the run blocking by the O-line is not that good.

How many times should Cross get the ball and at whose expense? I like Cross and think that he is a very useful player but I can't see him getting the ball 5 to 7 times a games.


Good game by the Argo D again - even with the revamped secondary; still not enough outside pass rush with Butler out, and Lemon is not near what he has been in the past, and Davis - although he has shown a few flashes - is just not good enough at DE; most CFL teams are going with a lot of D-line rotation and it often works with fresh guys helping to make plays; but not Chamblin with DEs; the back-ups get zero playing time basically - must be lacking something on their resumes.

So, only the Canadian defensive linemen are doing a good job, OV?

[ArgoRavi]

We lost on the road in Calgary - no surprise.

Our D was surprisingly effective, but...

The Argos aren't where they need to be but were much more competitive tonight compared to the last game against the Stamps. They have half of the season to close the gap and I am optimistic that they will do so. Obviously, they need more work on offence and special teams but the defence has certainly come along nicely, despite all of the injuries.

Here is Trestman's take on the game with a number of questions from Frank Z.: https://www.argonauts.ca/2017/08/27/marc-trestman-media-week-10-august-26/

[Rich]

How many times should Cross get the ball and at whose expense? I like Cross and think that he is a very useful player but I can't see him getting the ball 5 to 7 times a games.


So, only the Canadian defensive linemen are doing a good job, OV?


Cross can do a lot of things. He's a great blocker, he gets open and he's got deceptive speed. Why NOT give him the ball 5 to 7 times a game?

As for the D-Line, I'd agree that Jeff Finley was the standout tonight.

[gilthethrill]

Cross can do a lot of things. He's a great blocker, he gets open and he's got deceptive speed. Why NOT give him the ball 5 to 7 times a game?

As for the D-Line, I'd agree that Jeff Finley was the standout tonight.

As for Finley he came off the field in the 3rd quarter irate. Next time I saw him he had his left arm in a sling. I trust TSN sideline reporter made mention of that?

[OV Argo]

How many times should Cross get the ball and at whose expense? I like Cross and think that he is a very useful player but I can't see him getting the ball 5 to 7 times a games.



So, only the Canadian defensive linemen are doing a good job, OV?

I've mentioned several times in the past here how impressed I have been with rookie import Dylan Wynn's play at DT, along with also being a fan of Victor Butler (liked his resume when he was signed) from game one, but maybe you missed that Ravi? And OMG NO, it's just not right to be critical of any American player and praise Canadian players or hope that some young ones get a shot at playing time ? - that seems to be the taught attitude of some.

And yes - Cross could be getting the ball 5 or more times a game; when a player and his position are being effective on offence, it can be rewarded with more work; and maybe makes the D look to stop it and opens things up for other parts of the offence. Ever heard of Bob Bronk or Warren Hudson ? ;o) Or would you rather see more of the same old, standard CFL offence of today - with QBs throwing the ball way across the field horizonatally for an incompletion or a 3 yard gain ?

[AngeloV]

Plain and simple. Argos need to do something about that O-Line. It was horrific. Perhaps moving CVZ to guard and Washington to RT. Ray had no choice but to look for outlets all night. They will not beat a good pressure D as they are now.

[AngeloV]

The Argos aren't where they need to be but were much more competitive tonight compared to the last game against the Stamps. They have half of the season to close the gap and I am optimistic that they will do so. Obviously, they need more work on offence and special teams but the defence has certainly come along nicely, despite all of the injuries.

Here is Trestman's take on the game with a number of questions from Frank Z.: https://www.argonauts.ca/2017/08/27/marc-trestman-media-week-10-august-26/

Cross is making some big plays because they are tendency breakers. Give him 5-7 touches a game and that will no longer be the case.

[R.J]

Oline needs to be fixed, as does the run game. Defence looking good, and tbh I'm pleasantly surprised as I would've never expected it. Gaydosh looked pretty good IMO, if the guy can stay healthy, I think he could be a huge pick for this team.

Trestman needs to get away from the predictable play calling IMO, pretty clear that teams are aware that Ray struggles against the zone, and gets conservative.

[cfl-cis fan]

Cross is making some big plays because they are tendency breakers. Give him 5-7 touches a game and that will no longer be the case.

Trust in the coaching staff as they continue to develop this young player. Last year every one on this board wanted him cut as a rookie. Let him develop at the pace the coaching is taking him.

[paulwoods13]

Trust in the coaching staff as they continue to develop this young player. Last year every one on this board wanted him cut as a rookie. Let him develop at the pace the coaching is taking him.

Umm, no -- not everyone on this board wanted him cut last year. In fact, I believe there were maybe a grand total of two posters who nonsensically called for him to be cut after he dropped one pass.

[Argo57]

Cross is making some big plays because they are tendency breakers. Give him 5-7 touches a game and that will no longer be the case.

If you add Cross into the mix a little more often it will give the oppositions D something else to think about and open up things elsewhere.
O-Line (pass protection and run blocking) are sub standard (to be kind) and need to be fixed, subsequently the Argos pose no run threat which in itself is a big problem.
Fuller is next to useless out there, not sure why they keep putting him out on the field?

[paulwoods13]

I wasn't able to see the game and likely won't have time to watch it on PVR, but based on the comments here, it seems we are back into "o-line-sucks" territory. We've had a few games where the line played well (most of the previous two, in fact) but generally speaking this has felt like our main weakness all season. Since Fuller is hardly being used or contributing, we certainly could go with a second INT o-lineman -- the question is, do we have one who would be an upgrade over the current group? Our Game 1 starter at LT was benched after a few games so it's probably folly to assume he could slide in at RT and dominate. And moving VZ to RG after so many years at RT might not be a slam dunk, either. Also, if we were to go with two INTs on the o-line, we would definitely be able to start only one INT at DT. If Laing were healthy I'd feel a lot better about that.

[OV Argo]

If you add Cross into the mix a little more often it will give the oppositions D something else to think about and open up things elsewhere.
O-Line (pass protection and run blocking) are sub standard (to be kind) and need to be fixed, subsequently the Argos pose no run threat which in itself is a big problem.
Fuller is next to useless out there, not sure why they keep putting him out on the field?


Thing is - there are other players who can be tried, along with different play-calling on offence to help mix things up. But maybe this coaching staff has little faith in depth or back-ups or PR players who could be tried to help upgrade. Like to see Mason Woods or Shockey or a new import O-lineman maybe (sorry, can't name any that are sitting around waiting to be CFL superstars though) be given a shot to see if they can upgrade; or Noel or Jones or somebody else get a shot in the receiving corps to replace Fuller if he is not getting anything done - why not try ?

And while Trestman has been known as a sharp offensive coach who knows how to call smart games, last game against the Stamps was embarrassingly weak IMO - ZERO offensive points; no deep passing, no real ground game attempt; and i get that the offensive line is part of the problem, just not all of it to be scape-goated as THE only problem on offence. The coaches have to be able to call a smart offensive game that takes into account the style and personnel of the defence. Same old - Ray standing in the pocket, hoping to hold onto the ball a long time to go thru reads, only to throw a 5 yard completion = predictable; so - more Cross (on dump passes or give him some carries); or pound a big back like Wilder some at the D; or throw some long-bombs to receivers who typically are ignored or not tried on deep routes; how many jet sweep or reverse/double reverse to receiver plays has this offence run this year?; what about putting the ball into the hand of A, Edwards (ex-star college ball QB) on some gadget play where he throws well down field (or has the option to fake that and run)? - would be examples of things or wrinkles that could be tried to provide some offensive diversity. Ray does not have a good enough O-line to stand in the pocket all day and make reads; but maybe Trestman can't see that or else thinks that has to be the basis for the offence 95 % of the time ???

[cfl-cis fan]

Thing is - there are other players who can be tried, along with different play-calling on offence to help mix things up. But maybe this coaching staff has little faith in depth or back-ups or PR players who could be tried to help upgrade. Like to see Mason Woods or Shockey or a new import O-lineman maybe (sorry, can't name any that are sitting around waiting to be CFL superstars though) be given a shot to see if they can upgrade; or Noel or Jones or somebody else get a shot in the receiving corps to replace Fuller if he is not getting anything done - why not try ?

And while Trestman has been known as a sharp offensive coach who knows how to call smart games, last game against the Stamps was embarrassingly weak IMO - ZERO offensive points; no deep passing, no real ground game attempt; and i get that the offensive line is part of the problem, just not all of it to be scape-goated as THE only problem on offence. The coaches have to be able to call a smart offensive game that takes into account the style and personnel of the defence. Same old - Ray standing in the pocket, hoping to hold onto the ball a long time to go thru reads, only to throw a 5 yard completion = predictable; so - more Cross (on dump passes or give him some carries); or pound a big back like Wilder some at the D; or throw some long-bombs to receivers who typically are ignored or not tried on deep routes; how many jet sweep or reverse/double reverse to receiver plays has this offence run this year?; what about putting the ball into the hand of A, Edwards (ex-star college ball QB) on some gadget play where he throws well down field (or has the option to fake that and run)? - would be examples of things or wrinkles that could be tried to provide some offensive diversity. Ray does not have a good enough O-line to stand in the pocket all day and make reads; but maybe Trestman can't see that or else thinks that has to be the basis for the offence 95 % of the time ???

Have to agree, can not see why both Jones and Noel are not given a shot, how can they be any worse than Fuller has been recently.

[Rich]

i get that the offensive line is part of the problem, just not all of it to be scape-goated as THE only problem on offence.

The play-calling and the receivers need to share the blame too. Many times Ricky was able to get to his second and third reads and still couldn't pull the trigger. It seemed like guys just weren't getting open. Fuller is hopeless and needs to be cut. Jimmy Ralph cannot adequately replace Coombs. Maybe Posey was rusty on his routes. Maybe Calgary's secondary is just too good. Whatever the case, the offensive disaster can't all be blamed the O-Line.

[ArgoZ]

The play-calling and the receivers need to share the blame too. Many times Ricky was able to get to his second and third reads and still couldn't pull the trigger. It seemed like guys just weren't getting open. Fuller is hopeless and needs to be cut. Jimmy Ralph cannot adequately replace Coombs. Maybe Posey was rusty on his routes. Maybe Calgary's secondary is just too good. Whatever the case, the offensive disaster can't all be blamed the O-Line.

After watching the game on PVR this morning (yes I watched the fight), the O-line was satisfactory. Ray often had time to get rid of the ball, but didn't for whatever reason. I admire that he protects the ball, but he has to throw it away more often.

[Shatto]

The Stamps OL was not a lot better than the Argos IMO. The difference is they have a mobile QB who can get an extra second or so by successfully moving the pocket, plus they have an outstanding RB. Since the Stamps were going for broke rushing Ray, why not put Fajardo in for a few downs to give the offense a different look.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, Fuller needs to be replaced. At BMO I have watched him carefully and he just doesn't get any separation. It looks like he has definitely lost a step or two. Why not put Jackson, in Coombs spot and replace Fuller with either Williams, Noel or Jones. I'd be very surprised if they don't perform better than Fuller.

[Rich]

The Stamps OL was not a lot better than the Argos IMO. The difference is they have a mobile QB who can get an extra second or so by successfully moving the pocket

Actually i thought Ricky looked a little more nimble than he has in years. I can't remember the last time he escaped out of the pocket as often as he did Saturday. He bought a lot of extra time, and STILL couldn't find open guys. Maybe he just wasn't seeing the field very well on this night.

[paulwoods13]

So it would seem either receivers weren't getting open, or they were and Ricky couldn't find them. On the balance of probabilities, I would be more inclined to imagine the former than the latter.

Coombs' absence looms large. Posey may not be in mid-season form at this point. Green may have been doubled up. Fuller is Fuller. And the fifth spot is often held down by either a sixth o-lineman or a fullback who is used primarily as a blocker and occasionally as an outlet.

The fact we need to have a sixth (and often a seventh) blocker on virtually every passing play is a fundamental problem because it really limits our downfield options.

[AngeloV]

After watching the game on PVR this morning (yes I watched the fight), the O-line was satisfactory. Ray often had time to get rid of the ball, but didn't for whatever reason. I admire that he protects the ball, but he has to throw it away more often.

We must have been watching different games. The o-line was pushed back all night. Even when it looked like Ray may have had time to pass, the line was pushed back to the point where he wouldn't have been able to step into his throws.

[gilthethrill]

I don't think enough has been said about the Vaughn TD int. Sitting in the front row in Calgary, I had to watch the highlights to appreciate what a tough catch that was especially with clumsy McDaniel tripping over him. That makes 2 goal area pics in 2 games for the Hamilton cast off.

But it seemed too many blocking infractions on returns that set up long fields, the inability to convert on short yardage and offensive line play continue to haunt this team. Really love the Defence that Chamblin has installed.

There is no way, no freaking way we lose on Labour Day.

[timlb01]

I don't think enough has been said about the Vaughn TD int. Sitting in the front row in Calgary, I had to watch the highlights to appreciate what a tough catch that was especially with clumsy McDaniel tripping over him. That makes 2 goal area pics in 2 games for the Hamilton cast off.

But it seemed too many blocking infractions on returns that set up long fields, the inability to convert on short yardage and offensive line play continue to haunt this team. Really love the Defence that Chamblin has installed.

There is no way, no freaking way we lose on Labour Day.


I would never say that about Labour Day. Never. The TiCats could lose every game for 6 years and I would still be afraid of losing Labour Day. Too many bad trips down the QEW.

[timlb01]

How different could this game had been if SJ made a couple of those catches. I agree with most I really don't see what Fuller is doing but the coaching staff must believe he is a better choice than others mentioned here. This was an epic defensive battle with the Argos taking too many penalties again. In the end this team is not far from being very good and this was the first egg the offense laid this year. Defense was much better than I thought it would be not only this game but the entire year. Although we are all disappointed with the performance of the offense there are still many positives about this team this year. I expect the offense will be productive on Monday.

[RB957]

The Stamps OL was not a lot better than the Argos IMO. The difference is they have a mobile QB who can get an extra second or so by successfully moving the pocket, plus they have an outstanding RB. Since the Stamps were going for broke rushing Ray, why not put Fajardo in for a few downs to give the offense a different look.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, Fuller needs to be replaced. At BMO I have watched him carefully and he just doesn't get any separation. It looks like he has definitely lost a step or two. Why not put Jackson, in Coombs spot and replace Fuller with either Williams, Noel or Jones. I'd be very surprised if they don't perform better than Fuller.

YES!! I agree with your assessment regarding Fuller. He can't get separation, and hasn't made catches in traffic. Time to make a change there for sure. Also, why is it that when other teams throw short passes to the sidelines, they have blockers in front of the receivers? We do that, and all I see is our receiver surrounded by 3 or 4 defenders. I don't get it.

[gilthethrill]

I would never say that about Labour Day. Never. The TiCats could lose every game for 6 years and I would still be afraid of losing Labour Day. Too many bad trips down the QEW.

Normally I would agree with you Tim, but this season is different. The Cats are a total mess, where I see Trestman really preparing his team well this week. If I am not mistaken, both Laurent and Atkinson may miss this game. Ray should have a field day.

I am still bitter about last year's Labour Day loss in case you had not noticed.

[AngeloV]

YES!! I agree with your assessment regarding Fuller. He can't get separation, and hasn't made catches in traffic. Time to make a change there for sure. Also, why is it that when other teams throw short passes to the sidelines, they have blockers in front of the receivers? We do that, and all I see is our receiver surrounded by 3 or 4 defenders. I don't get it.

I would have no problem replacing Fuller with either Williams or Noel, if they make a ratio change on the O-line to go with it. I've made no bones about the fact that I like Fuller and his ability to both clear for underneath guys and block downfield, but all that is useless if Ray can't step into his throws. Argos O-line has been inconsistent to say the least, but they really have been exposed as not good enough against an elite D like Calgary's.

[Jon Gonzo]

Our two MVP's on O had bad days. We know how that goes. The O-Line was getting pushed, just as our D was pushing theirs. As someone mentioned, the difference in that equation is mobility. But one of the under mentioned reasons for the "L.".......Alex Singleton (a guy we should probably have) and what I think is the best D-Backfield in the game.

The O Line needs to get better, against better teams. They are average. I wonder what Greg Van Roten is doing right now?

We need other receivers to pick up the slack if SJ ain't owning it. In Montreal, if it wasn't Solomon Jr. it was Ben Cahoon. Our underneath guy is hurt and Fuller isn't stepping up as an import. He'll need to. And soon.

I see two changes that I'd make on Offense.

[OV Argo]

Our two MVP's on O had bad days. We know how that goes. The O-Line was getting pushed, just as our D was pushing theirs. As someone mentioned, the difference in that equation is mobility. But one of the under mentioned reasons for the "L.".......Alex Singleton (a guy we should probably have) and what I think is the best D-Backfield in the game.

The O Line needs to get better, against better teams. They are average. I wonder what Greg Van Roten is doing right now?

We need other receivers to pick up the slack if SJ ain't owning it. In Montreal, if it wasn't Solomon Jr. it was Ben Cahoon. Our underneath guy is hurt and Fuller isn't stepping up as an import. He'll need to. And soon.

I see two changes that I'd make on Offense.


Yep - Barker coulda drafted Singleton instead of Brian Jones - who the new braintrust has no use for; and Singleton is the best MLB in the league now IMO (playing better than Sol-E - who I think is an outstanding talent - this season); draft hindsight being 20/20 and all.

Again - varied opinions on the O-line; they ain't that good IMO, and I'd try a change or two (like giving top draft pick Mason Woods a shot at guard; or maybe call Van Roten again); but they are also hampered by a simple, too often predictable offence that I thought Trestman would not allow; way more diversity in play-calling is needed rather than Ricky Ray trying to sit in the pocket for 10 steamboats and make reads, 90% of the plays.

As far as receiver and help getting a more varied look; i'd replace Fuller with a tandem of Williams & Noel and let these guys try to get deep on DBs who do not have a book on them yet; and Coombs' spot could be a tandem of Martese Jackson (in a Durie type dump pass / get YAC yards role) and Brian Jones - big target with hands/catch radius who can run over or drag small defenders for extra yards (a la Sinopoli or Nik Lewis).

[ArgoZ]

We must have been watching different games. The o-line was pushed back all night. Even when it looked like Ray may have had time to pass, the line was pushed back to the point where he wouldn't have been able to step into his throws.

I can conceed that they were pushed back, but as another poster mentioned, so was Calgary's and they put up 300+yards passing. Against a good defence, they provided Ray with some time. You can watch him make 2, 3 reads. It's seems too hard to consistently protect a pure pocket passer like Ray. The offence has good games, then against a well coached team, they struggle and look lost. The line needs work, but they are not the sole problem when after his 3rd read, Ray has to tuck and take a sack. I can't be the only one that was yelling "get rid of it" during the broadcast.

[paulwoods13]

Again, how do Ricky Ray's options compare to other QBs'? He has five guys, sometimes four, to choose from on most plays since we almost always have a sixth o-lineman in, and sometimes a TE/FB as well. Other QBs often/usually have six guys running routes. His best option (Green) is having an all-star year and as a result is likely getting extra coverage. His second-best option (Coombs) is gone for weeks. His third-best option (Edwards) is a pretty decent player who is up and down at this point. His fourth-best option (Posey) just came back after missing six games. His fifth-best option is a RB running check-down routes (Whitaker). Then we're into either an older receiver who seems to have trouble getting open (Fuller) or a young FB/TE who has shown flashes but is never gonna stretch a defence (Cross). It's not a ton to work with. Protection breaks down, often no one's open.

[AngeloV]

I can conceed that they were pushed back, but as another poster mentioned, so was Calgary's and they put up 300+yards passing. Against a good defence, they provided Ray with some time. You can watch him make 2, 3 reads. It's seems too hard to consistently protect a pure pocket passer like Ray. The offence has good games, then against a well coached team, they struggle and look lost. The line needs work, but they are not the sole problem when after his 3rd read, Ray has to tuck and take a sack. I can't be the only one that was yelling "get rid of it" during the broadcast.
Agree that the line isn't the only problem, as the have had some good games. But IMO, it is the weakest part of this team. Disagree that BLM saw similar pressure to Ray. Not even close, and it had nothing to do with his moving better in the pocket.

[OV Argo]

Again, how do Ricky Ray's options compare to other QBs'? He has five guys, sometimes four, to choose from on most plays since we almost always have a sixth o-lineman in, and sometimes a TE/FB as well. Other QBs often/usually have six guys running routes. His best option (Green) is having an all-star year and as a result is likely getting extra coverage. His second-best option (Coombs) is gone for weeks. His third-best option (Edwards) is a pretty decent player who is up and down at this point. His fourth-best option (Posey) just came back after missing six games. His fifth-best option is a RB running check-down routes (Whitaker). Then we're into either an older receiver who seems to have trouble getting open (Fuller) or a young FB/TE who has shown flashes but is never gonna stretch a defence (Cross). It's not a ton to work with. Protection breaks down, often no one's open.


Again - same old 5 pack look and just one simpleton run play as a tendency breaker and with Ray sitting in the pocket trying to make reads on route trees, is not going to work against a good defence with a good pass rush, and with an iffy O-line having troubles.

SO - wayyyy more diversity on offence MIGHT help; we've talked about the other options or different looks that might help - get the ball to Cross 5 or 6 times a game instead of 1 or 2; bang a big back like Wilder 5 or 6 times in ground game rather than 1 or 2 plays; more of Martese Jackson on dump passes or a big, bruising slotback like Jones gets a few throws; a jet sweep or reverse or 2 to a speedy receiver; have ex-QB A. Edwards get the ball in the backfield for an option pass or run play, etc. Ray hoping to load it up to SJ Green or Posey as the main focus of the offence = not good enough; and there IS lots more to work with.

[Wobbler]

I like the idea of greater offensive diversity, but I think it'll need to be mostly passing diversity. Ray isn't great at disguising handoffs (or subterfuge in general, actually - his pump fakes don't seem to fool anyone either), our backs are average ball carriers at best, and our OL hasn't shown much ability to create lanes. But with a veteran coach, veteran QB, and veteran receivers, our passing game could be more exotic if that's what is needed.

Despite some early frustration I'm glad that we've continued to give Wilder Jr. some carries. He's still not very effective yet, but he might be improving.

[argolio]

The clear defining factor for me in this game was our o-line getting manhandled. When the opponent consistently gets pressure up the middle, it doesn't matter what you call. Looked like McEwen and Watman had rough games.

Considering how long they were on the field, it was also a testament to the D that we held them to 23 points.

And about that P.I. on Vaughn: imagine it was a close game, we needed to challenge an obvious error in the 4th quarter, but had no challenge. If they actually do grade officials, the guy who called this penalty needs to sit for the rest of the season.

Glad we're done with that team.

[Wobbler]

Glad we're done with that team.
If we're lucky, they'll murder us in the Grey Cup game too.

[timlb01]

Normally I would agree with you Tim, but this season is different. The Cats are a total mess, where I see Trestman really preparing his team well this week. If I am not mistaken, both Laurent and Atkinson may miss this game. Ray should have a field day.

I am still bitter about last year's Labour Day loss in case you had not noticed.

I hope you are right. I am still mad we didn't do Montreal in 70-0 so maybe you will be right. This entire coaching thing is messed up in Hamilton too. I didn't think that team was this bad.

[Argofan_1000]

I hope you are right. I am still mad we didn't do Montreal in 70-0 so maybe you will be right. This entire coaching thing is messed up in Hamilton too. I didn't think that team was this bad.

and out of the ashes, rises a Phoenix. Lets hope it doesn't happen this weekend.

[ArgoZ]

and out of the ashes, rises a Phoenix. Lets hope it doesn't happen this weekend.

I'm starting to like our chances Labour Day. Their coach was visibly upset that he couldn't bring in his guy. Who know what this does for the future plan they may have had. The Argos must grab an early lead and capitalize on the impeding stadiums' negatively.

[Argo]

Argos must be heavily favoured to win, and there'd be no excuse otherwise. I pick the Argos in this game.

[OV Argo]

Ticats fired-up for Labour Day at home; plus teams often play well first game after a coaching change? And Masoli has some skills at QB IMO.

Wouldn't bet on this one; Argos could / should be able to win, but they need to show up in all 3 phases of the game. Like to see some diversity on offence that has been discussed here; if not - I fear a loss.

[cfl-cis fan]

Again, how do Ricky Ray's options compare to other QBs'? He has five guys, sometimes four, to choose from on most plays since we almost always have a sixth o-lineman in, and sometimes a TE/FB as well. Other QBs often/usually have six guys running routes. His best option (Green) is having an all-star year and as a result is likely getting extra coverage. His second-best option (Coombs) is gone for weeks. His third-best option (Edwards) is a pretty decent player who is up and down at this point. His fourth-best option (Posey) just came back after missing six games. His fifth-best option is a RB running check-down routes (Whitaker). Then we're into either an older receiver who seems to have trouble getting open (Fuller) or a young FB/TE who has shown flashes but is never gonna stretch a defence (Cross). It's not a ton to work with. Protection breaks down, often no one's open.

after watching the other FB in the league would have to say Cross is beginning to show an ability to get further down field than most ........ hope the Argos keep the RB coach around he has changed the RB/FB/TE performance with very good results.