Upcoming Offseason

[Scooter McCray]

There are two home games left plus a playoff game. Given that we are now two seasons into the new management cycle and Argo attendance is worse than when we had an absentee owner should the current management team have a third off season to do whatever they are doing? If not should changes be made now so that the playoff game will get the attention it deserves. I believe an opportunity will be missed with the current regime to take advantage of the team's onfield success and want somebody else to get a chance similar to 2003 when new ownership came in late in the season and created a buzz for 2004 when they won a grey cup. Any constructive thoughts?

[PullTogether73]

An interesting thread...

First of all, let's not get too ahead of ourselves with the "on-field success" mantra. This team has a sub-.500 record even after winning its last two games.
The sad state of the eastern division has created a false sense of success. With one more game against an eastern division team and four against western division teams, it remains to be seen how successful is this team.

As for the off-season...
I expect a significant realignment of ticket prices, as has been discussed and recommended in these forums.
Your point about lower attendance even from the last years at the dome is well made.
Perhaps lower prices and fewer price points will help in this regard.
But my question about this situation is, why did attendance drop off so much AND so rapidly after the first game last year?
A new (for the Argos) stadium along with tailgating were supposed to address the two primary reasons for poor attendance. Clearly, remedying those factors has not had the desired results.

I believe it is too early to give up on current management. Even coaches/GMs are generally given 5 year mandates to install their plan/culture. A rebuild is in the works. Let's give it a few more years before starting over.

[Treblecharger1]

My guess is that paid attendance has not actually dropped off from the Skydome. I would actually guess that it has increased. The main difference is they are not papering the house anymore. They have made a decision that going forward people will have to "pay" something to get into the building. Yes it might hurt to see only 13 to 15k a game but if that is actually paid butts in the seats we are going into the right direction.

I think this off season they need to reduce ticket prices and get the season seat number back to the 8 to 10k mark and I think they will in fact drop them significantly with fewer price points. Make that south end zone no more then $200 per season ticket and fill the damn thing :)

[paulwoods13]

I agree that the attendance being announced now almost certainly reflects tickets actually sold, much different than was the case under the previous regime(s). I also believe ticket prices will be significantly reduced/revamped for next season, with stronger incentives to hold season's tickets. Finally, as frustrated as some of us have been over the apparent lack of progress in the marketplace and some mistakes that were made (and owned up to after) last year, I don't believe it would make any sense to change the exec suite at this stage of the season. It's extremely unlikely that a new CEO could come in and suddenly have a lot more success selling tickets to two or three games, including a potential playoff game. I'm sure the brass are being evaluated by Cope and Tanenbaum, and we may or may not see changes, but if we do, it will not be in the midst of the season.

[Mightygoose]

In my view this will be the first off season this regime can actually focus on building the business.

2015-16 ownership took over January 1 plus Copeland, Moore and co. started too. They were working on the transition from the CFL office. Not too mention moving into a new stadium and hosting Grey Cup. Way too much on the plate

2016-17 ownership was dealing with the meltown both on and off the field. The Grey Cup fiasco really set this team back....Braley's influence was in effect here too.....the late season ticket launch made clear to me.

Moving forward. Definitely I think lower prices accross the board especially east side and upper bowl both sides. Less pricing options and beefed up perks and with term options like I mentioned last year. Longer the term, better the perks and per seat price.

Re: attendance, as disappointing it is....it's based on scanned tickets so it's very difficult to compare it to Rogers Centre.

I doubt there will be any changes at the upper management level but there will need to he some noticeable progress next year

[Shatto]

Next year Copeland et al will have been managing the team for the third year. Ownership should make it clear that a successful evaluation of their management performance will be based, to the greatest extent, on their ability to improve attendance. The buck stops at the top and so far the "top" has been singularly unsuccessful in addressing the attendance problem.

[AngeloV]

I really believe that the Argos will greatly reduce the prices on at least half their seats for 2018. I really hope that will result in attendance at least averaging 20k per game.

[Scooter McCray]

Thanks for the feedback from those who have responded so far. The handful of responses to this point seem to be okay with the current regime remaining in place for another go round this winter and next season. Somewhat surprised by that given those on this site are regular game attendees and season ticket holders.

For me when I think of the Argonauts I think of some great teams driven by past, present and future hall of fame players, coaches, gms and owners. Those teams motivated to overcome all obstacles, driven to break through all opponents, and fuelled by passion for the game and the team's place in both the league's and the city's history. In short nothing less than excellence and attention to detail was expected of the likes of many who have toiled for the double blue.

I believe the standards of a Doug Flutie, Michael Clemons, Mike O'Shea, Leo Cahill, Bob O'Billovich, Don Matthews, Ricky Ray and Marc Trestman should be in the front office at the highest levels. I don't see it and I have not seen it in this new regime in how they communicate, treat fans, manage, plan and implement. This team is the oldest, most storied professional sports team in North America if not the world. It deserves nothing less than excellence. Now either we have that or we don't. And if you, like me think we don't, than why do we want it and how does that contribute to the ongoing legacy of the Toronto Argonauts and their future in our city?

[RB957]

I don't think a change at the executive level would be in the team's best interests. What this franchise desperately needs is stability and a sense of calm professionalism. Not knee-jerk panic reaction. Although not a dynamic leader, it seems to me, based on what I have heard and seen that Michael Copeland is a thoughtful person. He has owned up to the organization's failings and seems committed to making things better. I agree with the comments that when this group took over, they had way to many balls in the air, without the required resources to pull it off, which understandably led to one crisis and mistake after another. The team's horrible play on the field didn't help and was reflected in the desperation resulting in among other things, the signing of Drew Willy. Clearlyt, just moving away from the Rogers Centre was not the panacea many people including myself, thought it would be. We need to acknowledge that despite the Argos' long history, they are not a major player in this city's crowded sports and entertainment environment. But that is okay, because we don't need to compete with the Leafs and the Jays and the Raptors. We need to try to build interest in new fans, by highlighting everything that is positive about this team and the league.

As a side note, it was my son's 26th birthday on Saturday, so I used my flex tickets and purchased some others and invited seven of his friends to tailgate and then come to the game. I also invited my brother-in-law. Most were not CFL fans, and a few openly dissed the league and considered it second rate. The interesting thing, without exception, is that they all had a great time. They enjoyed the tailgate and the game afterwards. As one of them said - "I could get into this". My brother-in-law felt that everything about the game day experience was positive and professional. So I think that the Argos are doing the right thing. Reducing prices will help, a strong competitive team, and targetted marketing and we can start to fill those seats. If Ottawa can do it, so can we.

[AngeloV]

I don't think a change at the executive level would be in the team's best interests. What this franchise desperately needs is stability and a sense of calm professionalism. Not knee-jerk panic reaction. Although not a dynamic leader, it seems to me, based on what I have heard and seen that Michael Copeland is a thoughtful person. He has owned up to the organization's failings and seems committed to making things better. I agree with the comments that when this group took over, they had way to many balls in the air, without the required resources to pull it off, which understandably led to one crisis and mistake after another. The team's horrible play on the field didn't help and was reflected in the desperation resulting in among other things, the signing of Drew Willy. Clearlyt, just moving away from the Rogers Centre was not the panacea many people including myself, thought it would be. We need to acknowledge that despite the Argos' long history, they are not a major player in this city's crowded sports and entertainment environment. But that is okay, because we don't need to compete with the Leafs and the Jays and the Raptors. We need to try to build interest in new fans, by highlighting everything that is positive about this team and the league.

As a side note, it was my son's 26th birthday on Saturday, so I used my flex tickets and purchased some others and invited seven of his friends to tailgate and then come to the game. I also invited my brother-in-law. Most were not CFL fans, and a few openly dissed the league and considered it second rate. The interesting thing, without exception, is that they all had a great time. They enjoyed the tailgate and the game afterwards. As one of them said - "I could get into this". My brother-in-law felt that everything about the game day experience was positive and professional. So I think that the Argos are doing the right thing. Reducing prices will help, a strong competitive team, and targetted marketing and we can start to fill those seats. If Ottawa can do it, so can we.

Great post. Glad everyone had a great time.

[RB957]

Great post. Glad everyone had a great time.

Thanks. One of the highlights of the day for me was getting our picture taken as a group with the Grey Cup. Everyone admitted that was pretty cool.

[Argo57]

I really believe that the Argos will greatly reduce the prices on at least half their seats for 2018. I really hope that will result in attendance at least averaging 20k per game.

Argos got it backwards, should have started with reasonable pricing levels to build attendance, atmosphere and demand then look at modest increases to build revenue.
Pricing levels are indeed out to lunch for many seats.

[AngeloV]

Argos got it backwards, should have started with reasonable pricing levels to build attendance, atmosphere and demand then look at modest increases to build revenue.
Pricing levels are indeed out to lunch for many seats.

I agree. They obviously erred in thinking the venue change alone would make all the difference.

[RB957]

Argos got it backwards, should have started with reasonable pricing levels to build attendance, atmosphere and demand then look at modest increases to build revenue.
Pricing levels are indeed out to lunch for many seats.

But if you look at the pricing of tickets across the league, we are not out of whack. For example, Calgary has tickets from $35 - $120 over 10 price points, BC goes from $25 - $138.50 over 8 etc. I didn't do the whole league but having been to both Ottawa and Montreal to watch games, their ticket prices for comparable seats were in the same range as what you would see at BMO. However, I do agree we have too many price points - Edmonton has only 5, by comparison - and given the difficulty we have had filling the stadium, I agree that the prices have to come down for next season. Better for everyone if by doing so we can put more bums in the seats.

[Argo57]

But if you look at the pricing of tickets across the league, we are not out of whack. For example, Calgary has tickets from $35 - $120 over 10 price points, BC goes from $25 - $138.50 over 8 etc. I didn't do the whole league but having been to both Ottawa and Montreal to watch games, their ticket prices for comparable seats were in the same range as what you would see at BMO. However, I do agree we have too many price points - Edmonton has only 5, by comparison - and given the difficulty we have had filling the stadium, I agree that the prices have to come down for next season. Better for everyone if by doing so we can put more bums in the seats.

Attendance figures indicate that ticket prices are out of whack for an apathetic CFL market like Toronto.

[Will]

I agree. They obviously erred in thinking the venue change alone would make all the difference.

So did many of us.

[paulwoods13]

But if you look at the pricing of tickets across the league, we are not out of whack. For example, Calgary has tickets from $35 - $120 over 10 price points, BC goes from $25 - $138.50 over 8 etc. I didn't do the whole league but having been to both Ottawa and Montreal to watch games, their ticket prices for comparable seats were in the same range as what you would see at BMO.

The Argos aren't trying to sell tickets in those markets, they're trying to sell tickets here. In a market that has more options than all the others, and in an environment where the CFL is perceived as the fourth or fifth option for sporting dollars. The prices have to be pegged to what this market will bear. What they can charge in Ottawa (two teams, Redblacks arguably No. 1) or elsewhere is irrelevant IMO. Arguably the CFL is overpriced in BC and Mtl, the two markets that have at least two other competing teams, and their attendance levels would tend to support that theory.

[Scooter McCray]

Awareness of the Toronto market should have been a given for Copeland. Lives here, worked at CFL head office, business education. Myself I can't get over that for year one. But there is no excuse for this year. And why wait until year three? If there is a problem address it now.

[timlb01]

Do we really think that if the prices were cut in half we would fill the stadium? I don't think it is too expensive. Decreasing price points is fine but does this stop people from buying?

[paulwoods13]

Awareness of the Toronto market should have been a given for Copeland. Lives here, worked at CFL head office, business education. Myself I can't get over that for year one. But there is no excuse for this year. And why wait until year three? If there is a problem address it now.

If there is a problem, I'm sure ownership will address it when the time is right. I don't think there's an open-and-shut case that Copeland is a failure despite the slowness of the rebuild. But even if he ownership decides to replace him, as I said above I don't think there's anything to be gained by doing it now. It wouldn't result in more ticket sales this year, it would get the team bad press as it would look as if panic is setting in corporately, and it could disrupt the chemistry that's clearly being developed on the football side.

[paulwoods13]

Do we really think that if the prices were cut in half we would fill the stadium? I don't think it is too expensive. Decreasing price points is fine but does this stop people from buying?

Who said half? And who said fill the stadium? The latter is a goal that's going to take years, IMO. A ticket price cut won't hurt and will probably help to some (at this point unknown) extent, but it's not an all-or-nothing proposition.

[S.A.C.]

Do we really think that if the prices were cut in half we would fill the stadium? I don't think it is too expensive. Decreasing price points is fine but does this stop people from buying?Probably not, but I think some are buying $15 tickets and then just moving into the more expensive seats after half-time, which I assume likely annoys some of those who did pay for the more expensive seats. Not that I want it to happen, but I think unfortunately this could lead to a situation with much of the stadium, likely the upper level, being routinely closed off, as happened at the dome.

[AngeloV]

Probably not, but I think some are buying $15 tickets and then just moving into the more expensive seats after half-time, which I assume likely annoys some of those who did pay for the more expensive seats. Not that I want it to happen, but I think unfortunately this could lead to a situation with much of the stadium, likely the upper level, being routinely closed off, as happened at the dome.

Not nearly enough seats in that stadium to close the upper level. If the Argos have to do that, they are dead.

[1971GreyCup]

Interesting article about the recent San Diego Chargers move from 57,000 stadium to LA and now can't sell out a 27,000 seat soccer stadium. Interesting parallels.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/leighsteinberg/2017/09/28/did-the-chargers-make-a-colossal-mistake-moving-to-los-angeles/#2b987ba3287d

[Invader]

Do we really think that if the prices were cut in half we would fill the stadium? I don't think it is too expensive. Decreasing price points is fine but does this stop people from buying?
I guess, the cost of tickets to an event shouldn't be less than it cost to park your car? I had proposed some Argo ticket pricing on this forum back in 2015 (with some posters claiming they were too low and I was trying to undermine the team.)


55-yd-line: $80
45-yd-line: $65
30-yd-line: $50
20-yd-line: $40
Goal-line: $30
Perm. EZ: $25
Temp. EZ: $19.99 or 2 for $35

Are these prices too low? Perhaps the Argos will want to charge $50 for the endzone and $120 for premium seating? Whatever the market will bear, I guess.

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?2629-Season-Ticket-Sales&p=70142#post70142

The idea was to pack BMO and generate demand-created price increases. Sometimes the CFL gets too big for it's britches with the high ticket prices in some markets (i.e. B.C./Mont.)...especially when fans know all home games are now televised.

[RB957]

I guess, the cost of tickets to an event shouldn't be less than it cost to park your car? I had proposed some Argo ticket pricing on this forum back in 2015 (with some posters claiming they were too low and I was trying to undermine the team.)



The idea was to pack BMO and generate demand-created price increases. Sometimes the CFL gets too big for it's britches with the high ticket prices in some markets (i.e. B.C./Mont.)...especially when fans know all home games are now televised.

I think this is a good concept. Similar to what Edmonton Eskimos have - a total of 5 price points, if I am not mistaken. Basically, between the 30 yard lines is top price, then everything else is much less money and more reasonable. Similar to what you are suggesting.

[Argo57]

I guess, the cost of tickets to an event shouldn't be less than it cost to park your car? I had proposed some Argo ticket pricing on this forum back in 2015 (with some posters claiming they were too low and I was trying to undermine the team.)



The idea was to pack BMO and generate demand-created price increases. Sometimes the CFL gets too big for it's britches with the high ticket prices in some markets (i.e. B.C./Mont.)...especially when fans know all home games are now televised.

Sound business approach mixed in with some common sense.

[Rich]

I will be very surprised if there isn't a big-name signing at QB. If such a signing is at all possible we can be certain Larry Tannenbaum is instructing Popp to pursue it. Tannenbaum knows Johnny Manziel would be the talk of the town. I thought Ambrosie's statement about Johnny not being eligible until next season was curious. He wouldn't raise expectations like that if there was no possibility of it happening. I think there may be negotiations taking place as we speak. There's a lot of things Tannenbaum can offer outside the capped salary.

But I'm now thinking what about Colin Kaepernick? Can you imagine how it would turn this town on its ear if he ever signed with the Argonauts? Right now, it would be a way bigger signing than Manziel.

[paulwoods13]

I fully expect Manziel to be a Tiger-Cat and Collaros to be an Argonaut in 2018.

[AngeloV]

I will be very surprised if there isn't a big-name signing at QB. If such a signing is at all possible we can be certain Larry Tannenbaum is instructing Popp to pursue it. Tannenbaum knows Johnny Manziel would be the talk of the town. I thought Ambrosie's statement about Johnny not being eligible until next season was curious. He wouldn't raise expectations like that if there was no possibility of it happening. I think there may be negotiations taking place as we speak. There's a lot of things Tannenbaum can offer outside the capped salary.

But I'm now thinking what about Colin Kaepernick? Can you imagine how it would turn this town on its ear if he ever signed with the Argonauts? Right now, it would be a way bigger signing than Manziel.

I believe their is zero chance you will see Kaepernick up here. I bet an NFL team signs him in the near future.


I fully expect Manziel to be a Tiger-Cat and Collaros to be an Argonaut in 2018.

I was thinking Montreal for Manziel. All depends how Masoli finishes the year off I guess. I agree ZC will likely be an Argo next year.

[gilthethrill]

I believe their is zero chance you will see Kaepernick up here. I bet an NFL team signs him in the near future.



I was thinking Montreal for Manziel. All depends how Masoli finishes the year off I guess. I agree ZC will likely be an Argo next year.

If Zac is an Argo next year, is Ricky?

[AngeloV]

If Zac is an Argo next year, is Ricky?

No. I really think Ricky is going to retire after this season, unless he is open to being a back up. If he's looking at going into coaching, a back up spot would be great. I love Ricky, but Collaros can be a starter for a long time, and I think he was just in a bad place this season.

[paulwoods13]

No. I really think Ricky is going to retire after this season, unless he is open to being a back up. If he's looking at going into coaching, a back up spot would be great. I love Ricky, but Collaros can be a starter for a long time, and I think he was just in a bad place this season.

I agree. Ricky either retires (hopefully as a four-time Grey Cup champion) or accepts a backup role to transition to coaching. It would be fabulous to have him as a backup along with a couple of prospects. As for Manziel, Austin appears to be enamoured with him (described him as having the greatest highlight reel he had ever seen of any QB) so I really believe he's gonna be a Ticat next season. It will be announced a day or two after Grey Cup. Masoli may end up in Montreal or B.C.

[Scooter McCray]

I think Ray would agree to be a backup here as he wants to get into coaching. Zach would be a good fit back here and even split time with Ray until his confidence is back fully. I don't believe Collaros is Drew Willy.

[Rich]

I fully expect Manziel to be a Tiger-Cat and Collaros to be an Argonaut in 2018.

Signing Collaros is not going to sell any tickets, and you gotta believe Tannenbaum wants to make a big signing that will.

[Rich]

I believe their is zero chance you will see Kaepernick up here. I bet an NFL team signs him in the near future.


Which NFL owner wants to risk alienating 40% of his fan base by signing him?

[AngeloV]

Which NFL owner wants to risk alienating 40% of his fan base by signing him?

He may gain 50% more paying customers if he loses the 40%. There are a lot of people boycotting the NFL in the US right now.



Signing Collaros is not going to sell any tickets, and you gotta believe Tannenbaum wants to make a big signing that will.

I don't think it would have any less impact than signing Manziel would. Rich, I know you are big on NCAA ball, but frankly, I don't think many Torontonians are. I think it would have a negative effect, because many people will see him more as an NFL reject than a Heisman trophy winner.

[argolio]

If Manziel or Kap are the key to selling tickets here (and I'm not convinced of that), is there any long-term benefit once they leave? If not, you'd have to keep chasing "name" players, which, by the way, won the Argos nothing in the 70s.

Then there's the issue of how long they'd stick around. If they did well, they'd almost certainly try the NFL a year or two down the line. And if they were tire fires, the Argos could be worse off than before.

[Argo57]

I fully expect Manziel to be a Tiger-Cat and Collaros to be an Argonaut in 2018.

Would suit me fine, as I've said before Trestman would do wonders for Collaros.

[jerrym]

If Manziel or Kap are the key to selling tickets here (and I'm not convinced of that), is there any long-term benefit once they leave? If not, you'd have to keep chasing "name" players, which, by the way, won the Argos nothing in the 70s.

Then there's the issue of how long they'd stick around. If they did well, they'd almost certainly try the NFL a year or two down the line. And if they were tire fires, the Argos could be worse off than before.

I remember only to well all the Argo "saviours" from Tobin Rote to Joe Theismann to Anthony Davis (the first million dollar man in the CFL) to Terry Metcalf (who held the record for most combined yards in an NFL season) to Rocket Ismail to Ricky Williams. If even Doug Flutie at his best could not reverse Argos's attendance problems long term, I have zero expectations that a Kaepernick or Manziel or any other single player will.

[ArgoGabe22]

I remember only to well all the Argo "saviours" from Tobin Rote to Joe Theismann to Anthony Davis (the first million dollar man in the CFL) to Terry Metcalf (who held the record for most combined yards in an NFL season) to Rocket Ismail to Ricky Williams. If even Doug Flutie at his best could not reverse Argos's attendance problems long term, I have zero expectations that a Kaepernick or Manziel or any other single player will.

With exception to Davis and Williams (who wasn't terrible, just didn't light it up), at least those players could play in the CFL. Who even knows what Manziel will bring.

[R.J]

If I had to guess, I think Manziel ends up as the starter in the Hammer, and Collaros back in double blue (not sure if starter or backup, as I think it all depends on what Ray wants to do). I also think Masoli stays in Hamilton, and Franklin ends up in Sask or MTL. Shiltz in Montreal looks to be an interesting prospect IMO.