Rating the draft & undrafted FAs

[OV Argo]

My draft ratings by team:

1 - Pussycats - got a number of top prospects & proven college ball players - on both sides of the ball

2 - Riders - got their local guy Heenan - maybe a stud CFL O-linemen for years; plus got a couple of good LB prospects and a potential steal of the draft with Bamaba in the 6th round

3 - Esks - a number of top prospects - might depend on if Pastzor or Chambers (both with NFL aspirations) ever show up in the CFL

4 - Stumps - one blue chipper in Pall, plus a whole bunch of other picks - mostly project types though

5 - BC - Westerman going 2nd a bit of a reach IMO; Norman a steal where they got him IMO

6 - Bummers - some reaches, but some pretty highly rated players included - if Bilukidi ever shows up in the CFL - could be a very good player perhaps

7 - Als - Popp is getting strange with his picks the last few years IMO


8 - Argos - baffling, bizzarre, ultra-questionable IMO



Now - getting on to undrafted FA types - not that many signed so far it seems (Quinlan with the Als an example); and for some reason - a bunch of seeming top rated players, mostly CIS guys - with all-star credentials and also Combine invitees (some with top testing numbers there), went undrafted ÉÉÉ ...

Quinlan and Greene not getting drafted at all = same old CFL stuff with regards to Canadian QBs - big deal that the Als signed Quinlan - if they had a modicum of respect for him he would have been drafted over some of the strange, unhearlded or did little in college ball picks they made.

Levesque, Riva and Granberg - all top CIS tailbacks - totally undrafted ÉÉÉ - the supposed CFL emergence of NI RBs last year - with Messam, Cornish and Harris all ending up as starters, was more of a one year anomaly maybe; how at least one CFL team would not want to take a look at Levesque - an explosive, big-gainer type back - is beyond me.

Receivers - CFL teams play NI receivers as a position group a lot (2nd only to O-Linemen); yet Charbonneau-Campeau and Bamba fell to late in the draft; and some other top CIS receivers who were at the E-Camp - like Brescacin - not drafted at all - yet the Argos braintrust somehow views Hurst as draftable - i don`t get this.

On the defensive side: a few top rated players not drafted at all - and with the unhearlded, reach or project type picks seen in the mid round = strange IMO. Van Praaet (Western) is a big (300 pound plus is big by CFL DT standards) DT who was an OUA all-star and led the Combine with a super strong bench press - maybe he`s viewed as too slow or not àthletic enough (Argos 1st pick Laing is apparently an àthelte`as a DT but that hasn`t shown up that much in that he`s a back-up mostly in college ball late in his career there). Dylan Hollohan - 2 time CIS all-star as both a safety and corner and puts up a superb set of athletic testing numbers at the CFL E-Camp = undrafted ÉÉÉ - yet the Als draft a DB who didn`t play last year and was hardly recognized as a top CIS player; and i guess the Argos though Shea Pierre was a better pick too - like to know based on what; and Bryce McCall - once in the top 10 of CFL draft prospect rankings is not drafted at all either (slow 40 time hurt him i`d guess - maybe Fantuz should have been written off as CFL prospect too after his slow Combine 40 time).

CFL `scouts`have their ways and methods though - and sometimes seem to me they go out of their way to draft their special project types - based on something or other i suppose (Kouame drafted before Feoli-Gudino last year a nice example maybe) - àthletes`or knowing the guy`s family or `bloodlines`i guess trumps proven pure football players i guess at times ÉÉÉ

Anywho - be interesting to see how many of supposed former good prospects get signed by CFL teams as FAs for upcoming TCs - what`s taking them - depends on if they have any TC roster room i guess; like to see the Argos take a look at one or two of the guys i mentioned; not holding my breath though after that draft.

:sick:

[Wobbler]

We're probably looking at Hurst more as a returner than as a receiver.

[OV Argo]

We're probably looking at Hurst more as a returner than as a receiver.

So, he's going to get some work with Owens around?; or Duire for that matter? And what happened with former draft pick Steven Turner in that department?

[argolio]

And what happened with former draft pick Steven Turner in that department?Unfortunately for him, he tore his achilles, and then couldn't hold on to the ball consistently when he tried to come back.

[Argocister]

According to David Naylors twitter, the teams all picked 2 more prospects after the formal draft to put on their negotiation lists.... But it's secret? So as the guys sign we may hear more.
Shea Pierre has been working out at the same place as Durie, and has had discussions with him prior to the draft. Not saying that Durie got him in, but his work ethic and character would be evident for Durie to comment on as reference. In which case, Shea may work out well.

[Nob]

I think that this is a very interesting thread.

I looked up Hurst. According to the University of Manitoba press release after his selection Hurst did not play ball in 2011. Soooooo, based on that I don't see what value they will get out of him. Especially when they had several cracks at some of the other receivers that were available (Simon C-C, Bamba). Look at the Cats NI receivers. That's scary. The Argos aren't.

As for players like Riva and Van Praet - I'm surprised that more Western players weren't selected. They usually get players selected on the basis of the strength of their program. I really think that the Argos could use Riva. Van Praet is a strong player, but I wonder if teams were concerned about his height, or quickness. Who knows.

Personally I was underwhelmed by the Argos draft, but then again running a football team is not my full time job. I would suspect that he Argos have more inside info than any of us do.

And this "futures" crap doesn't work or me. Take the best player available. They need NI players now. You have picks next year too.

[1argoholic]

Nobs last line says it all for me. There's always pick year after year so why not draft guys to help now?
I've made it very clear how pissed I was at the Argo draft picks. To me Barker sees finding players as some sort of game. He wants to dig up some guy that no one else has heard of. Then he can fall back on the line that it's a crap shoot if it doesn't work out. I just look at Wally and how successful he's been. I'd be following or copying him.
I think OB has done a great job in Hamilton as well. If the Argos come out of the gate slow Barker will be hearing it from all angles.

[ArgoRavi]

I just look at Wally and how successful he's been. I'd be following or copying him.


Wally has made as many future picks as anyone over the years. Remember Danny Watkins last year?

[gilthethrill]

Had Cleyon Laing gone undrafted this year, he would have been known next year, most likely as a 1st round draft pick. I will watch his progress this fall at Iowa. Also I am weary of watching our high picks stay in the NCAA or go to the NFL, but I also don't want Barker drafting a player with a high pick who is not worthy of it just to fill an immediate roster spot.

[OV Argo]

Had Cleyon Laing gone undrafted this year, he would have been known next year, most likely as a 1st round draft pick. I will watch his progress this fall at Iowa. Also I am weary of watching our high picks stay in the NCAA or go to the NFL, but I also don't want Barker drafting a player with a high pick who is not worthy of it just to fill an immediate roster spot.

This was Laing's CFL draft year - period; he would not have been draftable next year - he would have been available as a free agent if nobody had drafted him this year.

[Nob]

And what if Laing becomes next year's Holmes? They picked Holmes as a "futures" pick with an eye for the 2012 season. And has he given any indication that he will be in camp in a couple of weeks? How many players did they pass over that could have helped last year, or at least be getting ready for their second TC, in order to get Holmes?

This years draft puzzled me. The Hurst pick to me is baffling. I know that Forde had him in the top 10 draft eligible receivers, but....

I hate to say it, but I think that the Cats had a great draft, all while laughing at Barker.

I guess time will tell.

[ArgoRavi]

And what if Laing becomes next year's Holmes? They picked Holmes as a "futures" pick with an eye for the 2012 season. And has he given any indication that he will be in camp in a couple of weeks? How many players did they pass over that could have helped last year, or at least be getting ready for their second TC, in order to get Holmes?


While it is far from certain, it looks promising IMO that Holmes will be at the Argos' camp this year.

[Wobbler]

Ravi, aggressive claims like that could come back to haunt you!

[eiben35]

Jim Barker should get off his ass and sign Tyler Holmes. Don't squabble about 5 to 10,000 bucks. Give him a fair three-year contract. That is what Montreal did about three or four years ago with Andrew Woodruff. He was a 2nd round pick from Boise State and they offered him a good rookie contract with some up front money. He is now a stud. Barker can't wait like he did with Cory Greenwood. Jim goes for too many future players. The time is now for them to get better Canadians. They have the worst in the league especially with Eiben gone.

[AngeloV]

Jim Barker should get off his ass and sign Tyler Holmes. Don't squabble about 5 to 10,000 bucks. Give him a fair three-year contract. That is what Montreal did about three or four years ago with Andrew Woodruff. He was a 2nd round pick from Boise State and they offered him a good rookie contract with some up front money. He is now a stud. Barker can't wait like he did with Cory Greenwood. Jim goes for too many future players. The time is now for them to get better Canadians. They have the worst in the league especially with Eiben gone.

This has nothing to do with 5-10k. If Holmes makes it to an NFL TC, and gets lucky enough to make a squad, he will earn a minimum $390k. I think many players are willing to take the risk of being late to a CFL camp to make that type of money (even if they chances are slim). As for Greenwood, his agent probably had a couple of things happening and advised him not to sign with the Argos until they were explored. I don't think Barker can take the blame for that one.

[ArgoRavi]

This has nothing to do with 5-10k. If Holmes makes it to an NFL TC, and gets lucky enough to make a squad, he will earn a minimum $390k. I think many players are willing to take the risk of being late to a CFL camp to make that type of money (even if they chances are slim). As for Greenwood, his agent probably had a couple of things happening and advised him not to sign with the Argos until they were explored. I don't think Barker can take the blame for that one.

Agreed, Angelo, and I would add that the Argos hardly have the worst Canadian talent or depth in the league either.

[AngeloV]

Jim Popp has an idea that I think makes plenty of sense. I would love to see the league increase the number of rounds of the draft, and stay away from underclassmen that are going back to the NCAA.

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=395500

[KCargosfan]

Jim Barker should get off his ass and sign Tyler Holmes. Don't squabble about 5 to 10,000 bucks. Give him a fair three-year contract. That is what Montreal did about three or four years ago with Andrew Woodruff. He was a 2nd round pick from Boise State and they offered him a good rookie contract with some up front money. He is now a stud. Barker can't wait like he did with Cory Greenwood. Jim goes for too many future players. The time is now for them to get better Canadians. They have the worst in the league especially with Eiben gone.

Most guys are going to wait until the week before camp to sign. Barker didn't mess up anything with Greenwood, the Chiefs had a LB get injured in mini-camp which prompted them to sign Greenwood and the rest is history. Bad break for the Argos, good break for Greenwood.

I think we'll see Holmes sign anywhere from May 26-30.

Speaking of Greenwood, I'm on record as stating that we see him in '13 or '14.

[argolio]

Jim Popp has an idea that I think makes plenty of sense. I would love to see the league increase the number of rounds of the draft, and stay away from underclassmen that are going back to the NCAA.

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=395500I agree. If a Canadian NCAA junior doesn't declare for the NFL draft, he shouldn't be eligible for the CFL draft as one of the so-called "futures". And if there are any unusual situations, players can always apply for the supplemental draft.

[eiben35]

Argoravi,

Write down the Argos Canadian talent on paper and compare it with the rest of the league. They are absolutely the worst in the CFL.

[1argoholic]

I would agree that our Canadian content isn't great. I remember when Barker first got hear he this time around he ditched a bunch of our Canadians. Just look at Calgary and BC draft and how well they use their Canadian talent. Tell me that Johnson wouldn't have gotten a fair share of carries if he played elsewhere? When Calgary came up to make their first pick this year they went to the panel to hear about needs. Ford said they have no needs and laughed but he was bang on. It's not only about having quality Canadians but also respecting them and using them properly. I'll cut them some slack this year and hope our new coaching staff knows what's it's doing.

[Nob]

I have been on record as saying that the Argos Can-con is lacking. I was really hoping that the draft would have fixed some of those problems, but I'm not convinced.

I can't even remember what last year's draft brought them. I know that Holmes may, or may not, be here this year. The receivers could help, but that's it. All of those players are complimentary players. Not an impact player, or a difference maker in the bunch. Same for this year. I don't see an impact player in that group at all, and think that they passed over players that could have made a difference (eg. Plesius, Simon C-C, even Bamba). Time will tell, so I won't be too critical (maybe Tonye Tonye will be a stud. I don't know, and nor do I get paid to make that decision).

I really think tha Fantuz would have boosted the NI talent a lot, and helped with the ratio. However, it looks like he really wanted to go to Hamilton.

In this league you are only as good as your Canadians. I think we will find out how good the Argos' Canucks are, or aren't.

[OV Argo]

I have been on record as saying that the Argos Can-con is lacking. I was really hoping that the draft would have fixed some of those problems, but I'm not convinced.

I can't even remember what last year's draft brought them. I know that Holmes may, or may not, be here this year. The receivers could help, but that's it. All of those players are complimentary players. Not an impact player, or a difference maker in the bunch. Same for this year. I don't see an impact player in that group at all, and think that they passed over players that could have made a difference (eg. Plesius, Simon C-C, even Bamba). Time will tell, so I won't be too critical (maybe Tonye Tonye will be a stud. I don't know, and nor do I get paid to make that decision).

I really think tha Fantuz would have boosted the NI talent a lot, and helped with the ratio. However, it looks like he really wanted to go to Hamilton.

In this league you are only as good as your Canadians. I think we will find out how good the Argos' Canucks are, or aren't.

IMO - the Argos NI talent is pretty decent - not league best by any stretch, but ... remains to be seen in some regards; Greg Alexnadre from last year's draft IMO could be an impact CFL player if given a real shot; Holmes might show-up and he could be a good one; Feoli-Gudino might be an impact player too, but IMO he's in tough if it's pre-determined the receiving corps is going to be mostly Americans.

Losing Eiben and Picard - 2 top notch CFL starters - may have hurt the Argos all-over NI talent; time for some other guys to step-up.

[jerrym]

The Argo draft record has been generally terrible since it was first introduced in the 1950s as the Argos tended to focus on signing big name Americans to draw media attention in Canada's largest market. Furthermore when they've been successful, a lot of their best NIs were free agents signed away from other teams.

[ArgoRavi]

What does everyone think of Hamilton's draft in light of Plesius not signing with them and difficulty signing a couple of other picks? http://scratchingpost.thespec.com/2012/05/plesius-wants-another-nfl-shot-so-ticats-will-have-to-wait.html

Good thing that this didn't happen to the Argos and Jim Barker.

[1argoholic]

These guys want to chase this dream and the big bucks that come along with it. It really sucks for the CFL.

[ArgoRavi]

BTW, I just wanted to mention that the notorious Jonathan Hardaway is Plesius' agent. He likes to steer his clients away from the CFL towards the NFL and CFL GMs are now wary of picking his clients early in the draft.

[Nob]

Rav - I agree that those lack of signings bring down the grade on the Cats draft, but they're still in a better position than the Argos. I think that their Can Con is a bit better, and therefore their need for an injection of Canadian talent may not be as great as the Argos' need.

The Cats need help on the lines, big time, and that is usually the first stop in getting NI talent. However, look at their NI receivers - Fantuz and Stalla are starters. Giguere isn't a proven commodity but they've been waiting a long time to get him on the roster. Plus add Simon C-C whom they got in the 4th round (4th round???!, how is that possible??) and their NI receivers are the envy of the league.

I'm not sure about their depth - and what I mean about that is how is their NI talent for depth and special teams? I know that they got Eiben, and he I'll be an expensive special teams player, but what else do they have? Plesius would have helped that out a lot, but whoops.....

I think the Cats have their challenges that many Cat fans ignore because of the glamour of Burris and Fantuz (and I can't stand Burris). The loss of their drafted guys not signing is a big sting.

[KCargosfan]

What does everyone think of Hamilton's draft in light of Plesius not signing with them and difficulty signing a couple of other picks? http://scratchingpost.thespec.com/2012/05/plesius-wants-another-nfl-shot-so-ticats-will-have-to-wait.html

Good thing that this didn't happen to the Argos and Jim Barker.

As of right now, you'd have to say it's a complete failure if 0 of their guys don't come to camp.

[Nob]

I'm not sure that I would call it a "complete failure". They will still get those guys at some point, but not this year.

Look at the Argos draft. It looks like the last round pick DB is the only Argo draftee signed, and yet Barker loves his draft....... I don't, but he does.

[OV Argo]

The CFL draft is an interesting and quirky animal IMO; but i have to question a lot of CFL personnel guys (AKA good ole boys) draft "thinking" a lot of the times IMO.

To me - first, second or even 3rd round type picks should be viewed a lot differently than they often are; CFL teams might be wise to view top picks as good football players who can come in and help the team, AND in areas of need - guys who can be starters or impact players, and sooner, than later. You can save the reach, good "athlete", project, back-ups or special teamers only for the later rounds. Treat the 1st few rounders with respect, and draft them with the view that they are players who are going to love playing in the CFL and maybe get to play lots and then make a decent living playing football (proven starters end up making decent CFL coin - back-ups and special teamers, do not). Top draft picks might be more willing to sign with a decent signing bonus and the expectation they might get a real shot to play in the CFL.

The Ticats draft - on paper - seemed to feature a lot of good talent; but are they viewed by an Obie type as players who can help his specific team or just the best "athletes" who might, maybe fit in somewhere? And if CFL teams are leery of a player's agent or attitude - fair enough - but surely the opposite can exist: Canadian players should well know the score with regards to attitudes towards them by typical CFL personnel guys. Why would Plesius want to sign with the Ticats if he full well knows he is going to get little opportunity to start (and then earn decent starter money), when he realizes the Ticats already have a starting MLB they like and he is going to get little shot to play there because they don't play NIs much on D? - makes more sense to hold out for an NFL shot (NFL minimum obviously way better than he could hope for in the CFL and PR money there might be better too). Where is a top receiver prospect like Charbonneau-Campeau going to fit in there with Fantuz, Stala and probably Giguere well ahead of him on the depth chart there? Gascon-Nadon is a top DE prospect and on paper, the Ticats have serious need there, but is an Obie/Cortez type going to consider play a NI at DE? - he'd likely be viewed as a back-up or special teamer at best. IMO - it should be no surprise if top CFL draft picks are reluctant to sign with a CFL team if they are viewed as projects or back-ups who will be low- balled with a CFL minimum type contract and get little shot to play. Draft a guy in the first couple of rounds that you have a lot of respect for and you think would be a good fit with your team and city, offer him a decent signing bounus and the notion that he might get to play for you, and you might see a different story a lot of the time?

Top rated CFL draft picks at position groups like O-Line or receiver - where NI get to play lots - and where the specific CFL team that drafted them might have serious needs - might be happy with their draft status; a LOT of other CFL top draft picks should maybe be not so keen to report to the CFL.

[ArgoRavi]

With a Salary Management System in place, what do you propose would be a fair salary for someone like Plesius who went 10th overall in the draft, OV?

[KCargosfan]

I'm not sure that I would call it a "complete failure". They will still get those guys at some point, but not this year.

That's why I prefaced it with, "As of right now..."

If Giguere turns out to be really good, that pick in '08 looks great, but for the last three years it wasn't.

[Nob]

The bigger problem, and I know that Popp's idea touches upon it, is that more NI are heading south. The increase in the talent level (and Canadians are rapidly improving in their skil sets, and learning and playing more at the grass root levels) means that more are getting noticed down south. More Canadians are trying, an making, NFL camps. Add the increased NFL training camp rosters and this is becoming a massive problem that isn't going to go away fo he CFL.

I think most expected Gigeure back in Canada at some time. Most expect that Reinders will come to his senses and come back here. Ditto Holmes. Who knows about Greenwood. However, until they come back to the CFL it really disadvantages the teams that picked them.

The other thing is that nobody knows if Gigeure or Reinders can add any value. You would think that they can, but there is no guarantee.

I would suggest that the CFL should change a couple things - go with Popp's suggestion about only allowing declared NCAA players to participate in the draft. The other proposal that I have is that teams should get a compensatory pick if a prior year draft selection goes to the NFL and doesn't sign with their CFL rights holder (remember - with Popp's plan there will be no more "futures" picks). If a player returns to the CIS then I would propose a lesser compensatory selection.

The state of eligible NI for the draft has never been better. There is enough talent to increase the 48 players picked in the 6 rounds. The CIS and NCAA are turning out great players. Teams need to be smart in their selections (I like to refer to Sask picking Craig Butler last year (yeah... I was lucky enough to coach him in London too. Great football sense. Off he charts with that, but I digress, and I'm bragging now....lol)). It can be done.

[paulwoods13]

To me - first, second or even 3rd round type picks should be viewed a lot differently than they often are; CFL teams might be wise to view top picks as good football players who can come in and help the team, AND in areas of need - guys who can be starters or impact players, and sooner, than later. You can save the reach, good "athlete", project, back-ups or special teamers only for the later rounds. Treat the 1st few rounders with respect, and draft them with the view that they are players who are going to love playing in the CFL and maybe get to play lots and then make a decent living playing football (proven starters end up making decent CFL coin - back-ups and special teamers, do not). Top draft picks might be more willing to sign with a decent signing bonus and the expectation they might get a real shot to play in the CFL.


OV, I don't believe there is a single guy who is good enough to be drafted in the first three rounds of the CFL draft who does not aspire to play in the NFL. There is no signing bonus payable under the SMS that will persuade a guy to forgo the possibility, however, slim, of making an NFL roster or even sitting on an NFL practice roster. I wish there were great players who only wanted to play in the CFL and would set that as their goal from the outset, but I think that animal disappeared when NFL and CFL salaries became so disparate, and the disparity is increasing just as the skills of Canadian players are increasing. Combined, it means we are facing a future where more and more CFL draftees don't sign immediately, or at all, in Canada, I'm afraid. The new trend of returning to Canadian schools rather than sign, to increase the prospect of an NFL offer a year later, is a real warning sign.


I would suggest that the CFL should change a couple things - go with Popp's suggestion about only allowing declared NCAA players to participate in the draft. The other proposal that I have is that teams should get a compensatory pick if a prior year draft selection goes to the NFL and doesn't sign with their CFL rights holder (remember - with Popp's plan there will be no more "futures" picks). If a player returns to the CIS then I would propose a lesser compensatory selection.


Those are interesting suggestions, especially the compensatory picks although the risk is that a team could end up having its cake and eating it too. Let's say the Argos got a comp pick at the end of the 2011 first round because Greenwood signed with the Chiefs in 2010. If Greenwood later returned, the Argos could have two first-rounders where only one was really warranted. Not sure how to overcome that, other than by removing later picks if a compensatory pick and the original player both signed. I can't see teams agreeing to that, tho.

[RoRoYoBoat]

With a Salary Management System in place, what do you propose would be a fair salary for someone like Plesius who went 10th overall in the draft, OV?

Two year contract: League minimum
Three year contract 50,55,60 with 10k of it up front
Four year deal 55,60,65,75 with 10k of it up front


Those are interesting suggestions, especially the compensatory picks although the risk is that a team could end up having its cake and eating it too. Let's say the Argos got a comp pick at the end of the 2011 first round because Greenwood signed with the Chiefs in 2010. If Greenwood later returned, the Argos could have two first-rounders where only one was really warranted. Not sure how to overcome that, other than by removing later picks if a compensatory pick and the original player both signed. I can't see teams agreeing to that, tho.

I don't like the compensation idea. Again it rewards teams who do not do their homework. Also it does not work well. Team gets an extra pick and the original pick shows up a year later... No.

1- Stop drafting NCAA juniors.
2- Have prospects who want to declare themselves for the draft sign a contract with League office that they will report to any team who drafts them for the two year minimum standard contract (Teams can still offer longer term more lucrative deals to their draft picks).
3-Add 5 rounds to the draft. Prospects who don't want to sign the contract with the league are not eligible to play and can enter the draft the following season.
4- Move the draft at least 10 days after the NFL draft.

That will solve everything.

[paulwoods13]

I don't like the compensation idea. Again it rewards teams who do not do their homework. Also it does not work well. Team gets an extra pick and the original pick shows up a year later... No.

1- Stop drafting NCAA juniors.
2- Have prospects who want to declare themselves for the draft sign a contract with League office that they will report to any team who drafts them for the two year minimum standard contract (Teams can still offer longer term more lucrative deals to their draft picks).
3-Add 5 rounds to the draft. Prospects who don't want to sign the contract with the league are not eligible to play and can enter the draft the following season.
4- Move the draft at least 10 days after the NFL draft.

That will solve everything.

I don't know about solving everything, but I agree with most of this, especially No. 1 (add "redshirt seniors" as well) and No. 4. No. 2 might alienate CIS schools, which is not a good idea, but I imagine ways could be found to keep everyone happy. Re more rounds in the draft: are you saying use the last five rounds only to draft guys who either have not declared or are trying to go to the NFL? So in effect a two-tier draft -- first for declared players and second for underclared or pure future types?

[argolio]

I doubt the draft will ever be extended considering the trend in all pro drafts has been to reduce rounds. A 6-round draft is sufficient to replenish a roster of 20 Canadians. The NFL seems to get by with a 7-round draft (more like 8 or 9 when you add compensatory picks) to restock their 53-man rosters.

[Argocister]

So educate me on the NFL draft..... If you declare yourself for the draft, and don't get drafted then you go free agency but do not return to NCAA football. Right?
Now for the CFL draft.......
It looks like quite a few CIS players that were drafted are returning for their final year of school and football. Would one suggest that, if they are planning on returning to school they declare themselves the following year? What was the purpose in the CFL draft for having the players draft eligibility in their third year of school?
Just as a side note, the Al's and the Stamps have signed most of their draft choices. OV Argo, you have rated their draft 8 th and 4 th respectively, would you now place their draft success differently, or would you think these players may not last long in this league? Obviously, different ways to play the draft game in the CFL. All the more to make life interesting.

[argolio]

So educate me on the NFL draft..... If you declare yourself for the draft, and don't get drafted then you go free agency but do not return to NCAA football. Right?Right. Once you declare and register your NFL intentions, your NCAA eligibility is finished, whereas in the CIS there has been at least one case where a player had remaining eligibility, played in the CFL, and then went back to play in the CIS.

I'm guessing the full-ride scholarship system down south drove the NCAA to establishing and enforcing a clear line between amateur and professional status.

[Argocister]

An interesting article on the draftees from CIS returning to school, and keeping their options open for the NFL.
I Like the idea of the CFL and CIS examining the player development together. Then the draft may be less of a crap shoot.

http://jimmullinnow.blogspot.ca/2012/05/nill-constantin-benefit-from-providing.html

[RoRoYoBoat]

So educate me on the NFL draft..... If you declare yourself for the draft, and don't get drafted then you go free agency but do not return to NCAA football. Right?
Now for the CFL draft.......
It looks like quite a few CIS players that were drafted are returning for their final year of school and football. Would one suggest that, if they are planning on returning to school they declare themselves the following year? What was the purpose in the CFL draft for having the players draft eligibility in their third year of school?
Just as a side note, the Al's and the Stamps have signed most of their draft choices. OV Argo, you have rated their draft 8 th and 4 th respectively, would you now place their draft success differently, or would you think these players may not last long in this league? Obviously, different ways to play the draft game in the CFL. All the more to make life interesting.

Minor thing but both CIS and NCAA prospects are drafted after their fourth year. Only exception I can think of are players who played 2 years CEGEP would be 3 years University. Drafting after their fourth year in the CIS makes sense because probably half or more have graduated. So to return to University just to play football does not make sense in a lot of cases, if they do it is most often because it is their only option, you see it a lot with Quarterbacks. What is happening this year is centric to one agent in particular who's put his clients in a corner IMO.

[ArgoRavi]

Here is another good entry by Jim Mullin concerning the players returning to the CIS: http://jimmullinnow.blogspot.ca/2012/05/cis-players-staying-in-school-trend-is.html

The CFL would be wise to reform their draft in some way but there is also little question that one rogue agent is the one responsible for most of this "avalanche".

[OV Argo]

Here is another good entry by Jim Mullin concerning the players returning to the CIS: http://jimmullinnow.blogspot.ca/2012/05/cis-players-staying-in-school-trend-is.html

The CFL would be wise to reform their draft in some way but there is also little question that one rogue agent is the one responsible for most of this "avalanche".

Yep - this is ALL the fault of one rouge greedy agent giving his clients bad advice; and also some unappreciative CIS coaches; and nothing to do with the attitude towards Canadian players of a clique of good ole boys who run the CFL.

I think it's not good that a number of top CFL draft picks are choosing not to sign in the CFL and instead return to CIS ball; but why would they want to do this? - wouldn't it be a dream of top Canadian football talent to get a real chance to play in the big pro league in their own country? But why would Plesius or Gascon-Nadon spurn a chance to play for the Ticats? - maybe because they realize they'll get little chance to compete for playing time at the positions they were stars at in CIS ball from an Obie type because he prefers to hand jobs to American players at those positions? - so maybe they should be happy being viewed as back-ups or special teamers only and get low-balled with a CFL minimum contract offer? - is that what Hardaway should tell them to accept? - like it or tough $h*t? Is it such a shock they would want to return to a top CIS program where they are appreciated as key parts of a team they love and who will probably get to compete for another national championship?


Personally, I often find it kind of sad, if not appaling or pathetic, that there seems to be so little continuity or connect towards a CANADIAN football culture - with respect for all levels of a truely great Canadian game. This situation seems like the CFL fighting with CIS ball; and while I stand up for, follow and appreciate CIS ball, I've always been a much bigger CFL - the highest level of Canadian football - fan. But the CIS is the biggest league in the country with close to 30 teams as opposed to an 8 or 9 team CFL. And - IMO only of course - it's too bad the CFL didn't have a MUCH bigger connect and realationship with CIS ball and all other levels of Canadian football; instead of this Americans preferred attitude i see in the CFL. The Canadian football system has supplied the CFL with so much great talent over the years - from Russ Jackson, Whit Tucker and Ronnie Stewart types on those great Ottawa GC winning teams all the way thru to Foley, Durie and Van Zeyl types on this current Argo team. BUT -the CFL has evolved to allow more American players at the expense of Canadian players in the current CFL; the rosters used to feature more NIs than imports, and sorry - those days were heydays of great Canadian football; and while it's often said that the Canadian talent pool has improved - more top CIS players and more Canadians getting good US college ball training - then why the need to feaure more imports on CFL rosters? - simple - because the league is run by mostly ... it's obvious IMO.

Maybe when a few more football people from the Canadian football system are shown some more respect and hired for key positions in the CFL - guys like Nill, Constantin, Ptaszek, Towriss (and i have no idea if they'd really be interested in CFL positions - but i bet a few might); as opposed to Bart Andrus or Cory Chamblin or Joe Mack or Eric Tillspin types getting often hired instead - we might see some real change. And then we might see a few more of the top Canadian players who are drafted in the CFL, be proud to show-up in the CFL and get more real shots to play - we might even see a Canadian QB get to play a real down or two in this supposedly "radically canadian" (sick) league - which hasn't happened in 15 (!) years or so. And sorry Paul or whoever else might not agree - it's not all just about "talent" or even money (and yes - i can't blame any football player for wanting to take a shot at NFL buck$ or prestige) - but too bad there wasn't some more CFL prestige for top Canadian players that might lead some of them to be very happy to try the CFL; and a few more to be respected in the draft and being signed in the CFL.

[Nob]

OV - I agree with a lot of what you said, including the anti-Canadian sentiment from the American OL' boys network. However, there's a couple of things that you left out:

1 - Canadian talent has greatly improved. There are very talented players getting better coaching more so now then at any other time. More Canadian kids are playing at younger ages, and in other leagues and are getting to high school and university ball with more experience than prior generations. This is good for CIS. It is also bad for CIS because now more kids are going to the NCAA. I've had three kids that I coached go to the NCAA, and there are many, many more like them. The reality is when it comes time for the draft are you going to choose the Canadian from an NCAA Division 1 school or the CIS?

2 - the NFL dream is piped into these kids' heads by agents, and why wouldnt they listen? NFL training camp rosters have expanded and given increased chances. And that is what the agent is selling - a chance for the big NFL bucks. Nothing more, but a chance.

More opportunities are put there, add that to the fact that NFL teams have now discovered Canadian talent can play and it is a double-whammy for he CFL.

It is a bigger problem then the CFL is letting on. And it doesn't look like it wil get better any time soon.

[Argocister]

OVArgo ......."Yep - this is ALL the fault of one rouge greedy agent giving his clients bad advice; and also some unappreciative CIS coaches; and nothing to do with the attitude towards Canadian players of a clique of good ole boys who run the CFL."

OV I think you have this wrong, it's BECAUSE of the good ole boys attitude that allows a rouge greedy agent to throw the CFL draft into a crap shoot.
Hopefully having a group of drafted players doing this will put the draft and perhaps the CIS -CFL relationship on the agenda for discussion.
Obviously the dollar difference is key, but for the players from the Q , isn't age a concern the other way.Plesius and AGN are both 24, they get on a practice roster in the NFL at age of 25 ......at least a year or 2 /3 doing time there or on special teams. Doesn't that put them at a disadvantage in the long run, as the group they are with are 21/22 doing their time?

[jerrym]

I agree that the big money south of the border is the key to the brawn drain from the CFL and this is unlikely to change. It may even get worse. The days when even a Russ Jackson at the height of his CFL career would turn down what would have been one of the highest salaries in the NFL (as a replacement for the injured Johnny Unitas near the end of his career) because he could make enough between his CFL and teaching salaries to not make it worth while are long over. While tinkering with the draft system might save the occasional NI from going south, the money will attract many, even those with virtually no chance. Don't forget that in order to have success at the CIS level, they, with the rare exception of the late adapter, have had close to a decade or more of being a star or even a superstar at every level of football they have ever played. For the guy whose body size doesn't fit his position in the NFL, he has probably been told that at several other levels. Therefore, he is unlikely to listen to such advice, especially since he is young and failure has rarely crossed his path.

[argolio]

It should be noted that throughout most of the league's history, either all or almost all teams have been Canadian-owned, so Canadian owners have approved all changes that have led to today's CFL.

The other side of that coin is the CFLPA, which has sanctioned every roster change with little or no protest since its founding in the mid-60s. If the Canadian players themselves aren't expressing any appreciable dissatisfaction with how the CFL currently operates (and their silence seems to be deafening), then blaming the so-called clique of good ole boys for operating under the system that has been handed down to them is not seeing the forest for the trees.

[RoRoYoBoat]

It should be noted that throughout most of the league's history, either all or almost all teams have been Canadian-owned, so Canadian owners have approved all changes that have led to today's CFL.

The other side of that coin is the CFLPA, which has sanctioned every roster change with little or no protest since its founding in the mid-60s. If the Canadian players themselves aren't expressing any appreciable dissatisfaction with how the CFL currently operates (and their silence seems to be deafening), then blaming the so-called clique of good ole boys for operating under the system that has been handed down to them is not seeing the forest for the trees.

Great post. To blame Americans for how our league is run is not fair. Every once in a while there are Americans (Andrus) who come in with no understanding of our league just like there are Canadians Marshall, Bellefeuille but the bottom line is that every GM and HC in the league are trying to field the most competitive team within the rules that are in place and the resources their team has.

As for the CFLPA. They are just recently just starting to look like a real union. My biggest disappointment with them is how hard they have fought against giving the league proper sanctioning power over discipline issues on the field.

[ArgoRavi]

At the risk of incurring OV's wrath, I would question just how ill-treated Canadian players are. Canadian starters tend to make some of the higher salaries on any team. Rookie Canadians don't seem to make much less than rookie Americans. While Jonathan Hardaway can't be blamed for every unsigned Canadian draft pick this year, his attitude towards the CFL has certainly had an impact. It is hard to believe that even a sixth round pick like Ismael Bamba is holding out for more money before he signs on the dotted line in Saskatchewan. Something is definitely off about that.

[KCargosfan]

Plesius is returning to school because he wants another shot at the NFL next spring. It's that simple. Frankly, you can't blame him with the minimum NFL salary as high as it is.


Minor thing but both CIS and NCAA prospects are drafted after their fourth year. Only exception I can think of are players who played 2 years CEGEP would be 3 years University. Drafting after their fourth year in the CIS makes sense because probably half or more have graduated.

NCAA players can be drafted after their third year. Actually, all they have to be is 3 years out of high school, really has nothing to do with their NCAA eligibility.

[RoRoYoBoat]

NCAA players can be drafted after their third year. Actually, all they have to be is 3 years out of high school, really has nothing to do with their NCAA eligibility.

Thanks, forgot about their ability to declare themselves for the draft.


At the risk of incurring OV's wrath, I would question just how ill-treated Canadian players are. Canadian starters tend to make some of the higher salaries on any team. Rookie Canadians don't seem to make much less than rookie Americans. While Jonathan Hardaway can't be blamed for every unsigned Canadian draft pick this year, his attitude towards the CFL has certainly had an impact. It is hard to believe that even a sixth round pick like Ismael Bamba is holding out for more money before he signs on the dotted line in Saskatchewan. Something is definitely off about that.

Bamba had a change of heart. His degree is not that important now... :)
He's signed the 1+1 minimum contract. By the looks of it Agents played chicken and hit a wall. Most of them are in camp with the exception of Plesius and Chambers as far as I could read.

[ArgoRavi]

Here is an interesting article from the Hamilton Spectator in which a respected, prominent agent speaks out largely in defence of the league regarding CIS players who are going back to school rather than attending training camp with the team which drafted them: http://www.thespec.com/sports/ticats/article/734952--obie-worried-about-the-ones-that-got-away

[OV Argo]

Maybe the CFL should do away with the draft; and just make it a free for all of siging FAs?

The CFL teams that are really, seriously interested in top NI talent could work hard to scout and sign them if they think they are serious prospects, and the other teams could just sign NI players as "projects" or TC fodder or minimum wage back-ups or special teamers only - which is how the draft pans out sometimes anyway.

[Argocister]

Maybe the CFL should do away with the draft; and just make it a free for all of siging FAs?

The CFL teams that are really, seriously interested in top NI talent could work hard to scout and sign them if they think they are serious prospects, and the other teams could just sign NI players as "projects" or TC fodder or minimum wage back-ups or special teamers only - which is how the draft pans out sometimes anyway.

Without a draft what would us fans do?
Plus, the draft is a good marketing tool.

[KCargosfan]

Maybe the CFL should do away with the draft; and just make it a free for all of siging FAs?

The CFL teams that are really, seriously interested in top NI talent could work hard to scout and sign them if they think they are serious prospects, and the other teams could just sign NI players as "projects" or TC fodder or minimum wage back-ups or special teamers only - which is how the draft pans out sometimes anyway.

I think that's a pretty good idea.