Tyler Holmes

[Wobbler]

I missed this article by Zicarelli (http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/01/argos-turn-back-time-with-new-uniforms) which mentiones that Holmes was worked out by the Vikings. In fact, Holmes participated in their rookie mini-camp this weekend (he's pictured in this article from Friday (http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_20549794/minnesota-vikings-matt-kalil-excellent-rookie-minicamp-opens?source=pkg)). Amusingly that photo makes him look a bit small, but the guy he's standing next to is 6'7".

Holmes was one of 39 undrafted invitees at this camp (http://thevikingden.com/2012/05/04/vikings-kick-off-2012-rookie-minicamp-with-71-participants/) (listed as a Guard), so had his work cut out for him. Today the Vikings signed one of those players, so perhaps they've already made their decisions.

[gilthethrill]

I missed this article by Zicarelli (http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/01/argos-turn-back-time-with-new-uniforms) which mentiones that Holmes was worked out by the Vikings. In fact, Holmes participated in their rookie mini-camp this weekend (he's pictured in this article from Friday (http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_20549794/minnesota-vikings-matt-kalil-excellent-rookie-minicamp-opens?source=pkg)). Amusingly that photo makes him look a bit small, but the guy he's standing next to is 6'7".

Holmes was one of 39 undrafted invitees at this camp (http://thevikingden.com/2012/05/04/vikings-kick-off-2012-rookie-minicamp-with-71-participants/) (listed as a Guard), so had his work cut out for him. Today the Vikings signed one of those players, so perhaps they've already made their decisions.


Good find Wobbler, I was wondering how Holmes aspirations to play "Big time pro-football" was going. I will be checking the Vikings website soon to see if he advances to main TC.

[jerrym]

It would be nice if the Argos could add him to their roster, thereby creating even more competition among offensive linemen at training camp. Increasing Canadian depth is important to covering the injuries that are inevitable in football.

[KCargosfan]

http://www.nfl.com/teams/minnesotavikings/roster?team=MIN

By my count the Vikings have 90 players (the max) on their roster right now. I expect Holmes to be in our camp on May 30 or whenever it starts.

[Argonauter]

http://www.nfl.com/teams/minnesotavikings/roster?team=MIN

By my count the Vikings have 90 players (the max) on their roster right now. I expect Holmes to be in our camp on May 30 or whenever it starts.

I hope so. Thanks all for the updates on Holmes.

[gilthethrill]

So, if Minnesota does not sign Holmes, what are his chances of another NFL team signing him? If no other team signs him I hope he does not take the same approach as Joel Reinders. I think Holmes could play right away for the Argos.

[ArgoRavi]

So, if Minnesota does not sign Holmes, what are his chances of another NFL team signing him? If no other team signs him I hope he does not take the same approach as Joel Reinders. I think Holmes could play right away for the Argos.

At this point, training camp rosters are filling up in the NFL so each day that goes by with Holmes not signing in the NFL brings him one day closer to the Argos. Joel Reinders is one of a kind IMO. Furthermore, Holmes' father, Richard, was a running back for several seasons with the Argos, Bombers and Rough Riders so I suspect that young Tyler was brought up with positive attitudes toward the CFL.

[Will]

Holmes would be stuck behind Matt Kalil in Minnesota who was drafted 4th overall.

I'd like to see Holmes come up to Toronto especially with the recent Coughman troubles.

[AngeloV]

Holmes would be stuck behind Matt Kalil in Minnesota who was drafted 4th overall.

I'd like to see Holmes come up to Toronto especially with the recent Coughman troubles.

Not to mention the teams apparent desire to go with an all Canadian o-line.

[Mulder]

He's just signed with the Vikings. Looks like he won't be with us for at least half the season.

[ArgoGabe22]

From the TSN article "In 2010, he was named conference defensive player of the year." Was he a DT converted to OL? lol Not the first time they posted the wrong CFL info.

http://tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=395949

[KCargosfan]

Well, I was wrong. Look forward to seeing him in September.

[ArgoRavi]

Well, I was wrong. Look forward to seeing him in September.

Me too. I wonder if Holmes would have been signed if training camp rosters had not recently been increased from 80 to 90.

[1argoholic]

The Vikings are in neeed of players everywhere. He might just stick. The exact reason I don't like the way the Argonauts use the Canadian draft, or should I say don't use it.

[KCargosfan]

Me too. I wonder if Holmes would have been signed if training camp rosters had not recently been increased from 80 to 90.

Good question. The NFL is going to cut 928 players between now and its opening game, not including practice players. That's a ton of guys CFL teams can access (if they want) starting mid-Sept. My guess is Holmes would be one of those 928, but we'll see.

[Nob]

There may be 928 players available, but 927 of them wait after they have been cut to see if another team will pick them up, or wait for another player in the same position on another team to get injured, or cut.....

No guarantee we see him in September.

[gilthethrill]

That really stinks. Don't expect to see Holmes in an Argo uniform anytime this season. Rest assured he will hang on for as long as he can even if means a PR spot or sitting by the phone.

[1argoholic]

Another year and same old crap. I'm so sick of hearing and reading about Argo wasted draft picks and when they'll show up. He's another guy who's dead to me. You can't think in terms of when he'll show up. Time to start drafting guys who want to play in the CFL. You can't start the old airlift BS in Sept.

[KCargosfan]

There may be 928 players available, but 927 of them wait after they have been cut to see if another team will pick them up, or wait for another player in the same position on another team to get injured, or cut.....

No guarantee we see him in September.

True, it will most likely be next season, but I really don't see him making the Vikings. However, with my track record of predictions, he'll likely start at RT week 1, haha.

[Midnight Blue]

The Vikings are in neeed of players everywhere. He might just stick. The exact reason I don't like the way the Argonauts use the Canadian draft, or should I say don't use it.


I'm sure I've metioned it before, but another Vikings fan here.

To hell with Florida or Texas or Louisiana or California ; I think the Super Bowl should be played in Minnesota every year --- Greenland, or Ellesmere Island would be better....

It would separate the Vikings from mere Men. This is, after all, Football.

And yes, the Grey Cup should always be played in Edmonton, or even better, Whitehorse, Yukon.

Or even better, Ellesmere Island. Where one can still smoke a cigarette.


Cheers !

[1argoholic]

Or Newfoundland as per your other post. haha.

[paulwoods13]

Time to start drafting guys who want to play in the CFL. You can't start the old airlift BS in Sept.

But argoholic, there is not a single draft-eligible Canadian player who would not pick the NFL over the CFL if given a choice. It's a simple matter of dollars available (even practice roster guys make more than a rookie would make in the CFL) and the prestige of competing in North America's richest and most powerful league. If we limit our choices to guys who don't want to go to the NFL, we won't be able to pick anyone. If we limit it to guys who definitely aren't good enough to go to the NFL, we'll be cutting off our nose to spite our face because many of the guys who go down there eventually return to Canada. Remember -- the Argos waited four full years to get Chris Schultz. I'd say it was worth drafting him and waiting for him.

[RoRoYoBoat]

You can't trade half your pick and have the other half be no show. If your trading than you better make sure the rest of your picks pan out.

[Wobbler]

If we limit our choices to guys who don't want to go to the NFL, we won't be able to pick anyone. If we limit it to guys who definitely aren't good enough to go to the NFL, we'll be cutting off our nose to spite our face because many of the guys who go down there eventually return to Canada.
Indeed. There's no harm in having players show up several years after being drafted, provided that there is a (more-or-less) continuous flow of players arriving. Always focusing on players who will be immediately available is a path to mediocrity.

The only frustration with Holmes is that he'll be playing "out of position" as far as we're concerned. If he ends up spending a substantial amount of time in the NFL as a guard he'll have to re-learn the tackle position when he shows up.

[gilthethrill]

As much as I hate having "futures" picks try the NFL first, Barker could draft CIS/NCCA guys in the 1st round who are not 1st round material just to have a body come to camp. Then Barker would be labelled a failure if that overvalued pick did not pan out. Either way, CFL GM's are not in a favourable position when it comes to draft day.

I say with the NFL added 10 more "Cannonfodder" spots for training camps, it will have a negative effect on the Canadian content & it is only going to get worse.

[RoRoYoBoat]

I think Jim Popp's idea is to stop drafting NCAA Juniors is bang on. First off the big Div 1 schools don't appreciate it and it would they would be able to have a better sense of who they are drafting. Won't even mention the injury risk with these guys having an entire season of college ball left to play.

It is only going to get worse as the Canadian kids get better.


As much as I hate having "futures" picks try the NFL first, Barker could draft CIS/NCCA guys in the 1st round who are not 1st round material just to have a body come to camp. Then Barker would be labelled a failure if that overvalued pick did not pan out. Either way, CFL GM's are not in a favourable position when it comes to draft day.

I say with the NFL added 10 more "Cannonfodder" spots for training camps, it will have a negative effect on the Canadian content & it is only going to get worse.

Everyone in the Q knew Corey Greenwood was going to the NFL. He'd been scouted constantly for two years by three teams. You got to do your homework.

[OV Argo]

CFL teams have somehow managed to ignore or over-look plenty of good draftable players over the years; often in favor of reach, questionable or perhaps laughable draft picks instead.

The Argos could have drafted Kyle Koch - a top CIS all-star O-Lineman - a few years ago; he ended up signing as a FA with the Bombers and has now moved on to the Esks where he is IMO a solid if not top CFL OG; the Argos passed on Matt Norman - a similiarly recognized top CIS OG - in favor of a "project" like Laing, who has another year of NCAA ball left, and has thus far been a back-up mostly there. If somebody can provide some solid evidence of how drafting anybody with a pulse who is on an NCCA program (guys who were not proven starters there), has paid off with these guys becoming top notch starters down the road in the CFL - i'd love to hear that list. Meanwhile - i believe i could provide a decent list of proven CIS players - guys who were repeat CIS all-stars there with top stats / play-making ability shown - who have panned out quite well in the CFL - including players like Koch, Rob Bagg or Burk Dales, who were not drafted at all by the CFL "experts" ???

CIS star QBs Quinlan, Greene and Graves not picked at all this recent draft - no surprise there really; nor were other top CIS all-star/ stat leader types like Seb Levesque, Dylan Hollohan, Mike Van Praaet, Brescacin, Mederios, at other positions for example; meanwhile - some of the other draft picks = what are some of these CFL "scouts" going by ???

And drafting top players who are a good bet to get an NFL shot continues to be risky business - worth a shot perhaps with later round picks (the Argos once drafted Tim Biakabutuka in the later rounds) - but using first round picks on Kaczur or even Greenwood (and yep RoRo, i heard about the NFL interest in Greenwood, plus he put up a suprerb set on testing #s at the CFL E-Camp that would draw some NFL attention) = very questionable drafting strategy IMO. Perhaps the Argos should think of employing some different drafting strategy in the future - be nice to get a Fantuz or Cory Watson, or Labatte or Kyle Koch or Foley or Craig Butler type via the draft. But if your thinking is top, proven CIS players are just TC fodder type, then why bother i guess?

[Rich]

Indeed. There's no harm in having players show up several years after being drafted
How often has this happened to the Argos, though? Chris Schultz, has been mentioned, does O'Shea falls in this category?, Glen Young perhaps -- but I can't think of too many Argos who have shown up several years after being drafted.


Always focusing on players who will be immediately available is a path to mediocrity.
The wise GM knows when to roll the dice and when not to. Last year with the #1 pick, Barker had a sure thing in his pocket, an exceptional athlete who was a virtual certainty to stay in the CFL because he was setting up some businesses in Canada. Instead, Barker got greedy and decided to roll the dice on a guy he should have known was getting some looks down south. And wouldn't Shomari Williams look good in double Blue right now, a nice 1-2 thing he could do with Ricky Foley. Sometimes, Mr. Barker, the safe pick is the right one.

[KCargosfan]

Everyone in the Q knew Corey Greenwood was going to the NFL. He'd been scouted constantly for two years by three teams. You got to do your homework.

And you think Barker didn't? If the Chiefs didn't have an injury at mini-camp to one of their LBs, Greenwood never would have got an invite. If we didn't take Greenwood, BC would have. When Greenwood arrives in 2013 or '14, it will have been worth it.

[Invader]

But argoholic, there is not a single draft-eligible Canadian player who would not pick the NFL over the CFL if given a choice. It's a simple matter of dollars available
Where's your proof? I doubt you've personally talked to every draft-eligible player to gauge their intentions. There are American players who've turned down NFL offers which included a $90,000 signing bonus, like Khalif Mitchell this year, who chose to stay in the CFL because he doesn't care about the NFL money...and Chad Owens last year who turned down an NFL offer with signing bonus to stay with the Argos.

Since there are American players who chose the CFL over the NFL, there are likely Canadian players who'd prefer to play in Canada for a variety or reasons, regardless of NFL riches.

So your blanket statement downgrading the CFL is false.

[paulwoods13]

To each his own, Invader. If you can find me a single Cdn player just starting his pro career who turned down an invitation to an NFL camp, I'll take notice. Basing your argument on Americans who have already played in the pros and decided they'd rather take sure money and playing time in Cda over being possible TC fodder down south is not gonna convince me. And I don't for a second believe that my post "downgraded" the CFL.

[RoRoYoBoat]

And you think Barker didn't? If the Chiefs didn't have an injury at mini-camp to one of their LBs, Greenwood never would have got an invite. If we didn't take Greenwood, BC would have. When Greenwood arrives in 2013 or '14, it will have been worth it.

Your dreaming. He just signed a four year deal worth close to 3 million dollars.

[paulwoods13]

Your dreaming. He just signed a four year deal worth close to 3 million dollars.

For the record, he's scheduled to make $540k this year, with annual increases and a final salary of $745,000 in 2015. Total value four years, $2.75M. Of course NFL contracts are not guaranteed. If he does not advance to a starting LB position by 2013, will the Chiefs want to pay him $650k or so to play special teams? It would not be unreasonable to assume they might prefer to use a low draft pick or unsigned free agent at a lower salary for such a role. If he continues to be a special teams demon, he might be able to stick even at a fairly high price. And maybe he will eventually become a starter, but typically that has to happen by Year 3, and certainly Year 4, if it is ever going to happen.

[RoRoYoBoat]

For the record, he's scheduled to make $540k this year, with annual increases and a final salary of $745,000 in 2015. Total value four years, $2.75M. Of course NFL contracts are not guaranteed. If he does not advance to a starting LB position by 2013, will the Chiefs want to pay him $650k or so to play special teams? It would not be unreasonable to assume they might prefer to use a low draft pick or unsigned free agent at a lower salary for such a role. If he continues to be a special teams demon, he might be able to stick even at a fairly high price. And maybe he will eventually become a starter, but typically that has to happen by Year 3, and certainly Year 4, if it is ever going to happen.

He got a four year deal at close to 3 million. They have plans for him and even if KC cut him he would find another job in the NFL with how he's progressed so far. To think he will be in Toronto is 2013 is not realistic.

[ArgoRavi]

He got a four year deal at close to 3 million. They have plans for him and even if KC cut him he would find another job in the NFL with how he's progressed so far. To think he will be in Toronto is 2013 is not realistic.

Doesn't that contract amount to the minimum amount that KC would have to give him if he sticks for four more years? I agree with Paul and KCargosfan that Greenwood could potentially end up like many NFLers in that if he doesn't progress to a starting position by Year 4, he will be looking for work up here instead.

[RoRoYoBoat]

I understand why they use the four year but I don't think tha applies in the same way to guys like Greenwood, Martin and the likes Because there is way more growth potential in guys like that than your typical player coming through the NCAA.

[paulwoods13]

I remain convinced that if he is not a starting LB by next year at the latest, he will be up against the reality that a guy who is three-four years younger and $200-300k cheaper can be brought in to play special teams and back up at LB. That's not a knock on Greenwood -- he has done extremely well to date and deserves to remain on the Chiefs roster at this point. But I don't believe he is in a different category than any other non-starter in the NFL -- he can easily be replaced by a younger, cheaper player. It happens all the time in football to backups/special team players. The contract the Chiefs gave him is not somehow indicative of special plans for him, IMO. It's not that big a contract bny NFL standards, and of course it is not guaranteed.

[KCargosfan]

He got a four year deal at close to 3 million. They have plans for him and even if KC cut him he would find another job in the NFL with how he's progressed so far. To think he will be in Toronto is 2013 is not realistic.

Are you Greenwood's brother or something? 4 years for $2.75 million means nothing in the NFL. His base this year is $540K, the minimum for a third year player, and his signing bonus was a whopping $25K. Wow, he must be important.

What progression are you looking at? In 32 games he's made 24 tackles and never gets in on defense except when the game is a blowout. Or maybe you're watching different Chiefs games than I am?

That's a nice dream you have of that when he gets cut by the Chiefs, he would immediately be picked up by another team. Again, based on what? If the Chiefs have big plans for him, I'd like to know, because that means our LB corps is pretty questionable.


I remain convinced that if he is not a starting LB by next year at the latest, he will be up against the reality that a guy who is three-four years younger and $200-300k cheaper can be brought in to play special teams and back up at LB. That's not a knock on Greenwood -- he has done extremely well to date and deserves to remain on the Chiefs roster at this point. But I don't believe he is in a different category than any other non-starter in the NFL -- he can easily be replaced by a younger, cheaper player. It happens all the time in football to backups/special team players. The contract the Chiefs gave him is not somehow indicative of special plans for him, IMO. It's not that big a contract bny NFL standards, and of course it is not guaranteed.

Bingo pw13.

[RoRoYoBoat]

We all know he's a backup and ST player like 2/3 of the team, he still hit the field as a pure rookie right out of the CIS. and he's making 105 000.00 plus is 35k that's 140k more this year than minimum btw.So KC is getting pretty good value.

No, we are not related.

[KCargosfan]

We all know he's a backup and ST player like 2/3 of the team, he still hit the field as a pure rookie right out of the CIS. and he's making 105 000.00 plus is 35k that's 140k more this year than minimum btw.So KC is getting pretty good value.

No, we are not related.

I'm the first guy who wants Greenwood to be the next Derrick Johnson, I just haven't seen anything to make me believe he will be.

League minimum for 3rd year NFL players is $540K, so he is making the minimum for his service time:
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2011/07/2011-2014-nfl-minimum-base-salaries/

Greenwood's complete salary package is $566,250:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/cory-greenwood/

His salary cap hit makes him the 40th-highest paid player on the team.

And the Chiefs signed another linebacker today in former Brown/Cowboy Leon Williams:
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/article-2/Chiefs-ink-two-more-draft-picks-sign-three-players-off-minicamp-tryout-and-add-another-free-agent/6e0e3145-dbec-4330-9532-eee314760f54

[OV Argo]

Much as I'd love to see it - I'll bet Greenwood never shows-up for the Argos. And while there are a number of Canadian players who have come to the CFL after being in the NFL for awhile or even a bit, there is a much lengthier list of guys who did not. Schultz played when NFL money was not near what it is now. There are a number of reasons such guys may never report to the CFL: they made good coin down there so are financially set; they got injured badly or even nicked enough to want to give-up football; or, maybe they don't have much respect for the CFL - due to ego/CFL image or lower pay, or the 2nd class treatment (arguably of course) given to Canadian players in this "radical" league.

Funny, I don't see Nick Kazcur or Dan Federkeil suiting up for the Argos this TC; nor Clifton Dawson; did JP Darche want to come back to the CFL? Tim Biakabtuka ever show up?; Mark Montreuil? - did or have the Argos seriously persued such players after they were done in the NFL? (and Glenn Young was drafted by the Ticats; O'Shea was already an established CFL star who signed as a FA with the Argos after a try-out in Detroit).

We'll see how Greenwood does or if he progresses with the Chiefs; i think they consider him a good special-teamer and maybe a guy who could play some LB there ; don't count on him getting cut just because he is making a bit more than NFL minimum after a few years - nice theory on paper though.

[paulwoods13]

Much as I'd love to see it - I'll bet Greenwood never shows-up for the Argos. And while there are a number of Canadian players who have come to the CFL after being in the NFL for awhile or even a bit, there is a much lengthier list of guys who did not. Schultz played when NFL money was not near what it is now. There are a number of reasons such guys may never report to the CFL: they made good coin down there so are financially set; they got injured badly or even nicked enough to want to give-up football; or, maybe they don't have much respect for the CFL - due to ego/CFL image or lower pay, or the 2nd class treatment (arguably of course) given to Canadian players in this "radical" league.

Funny, I don't see Nick Kazcur or Dan Federkeil suiting up for the Argos this TC; nor Clifton Dawson; did JP Darche want to come back to the CFL? Tim Biakabtuka ever show up?; Mark Montreuil? - did or have the Argos seriously persued such players after they were done in the NFL? (and Glenn Young was drafted by the Ticats; O'Shea was already an established CFL star who signed as a FA with the Argos after a try-out in Detroit).

We'll see how Greenwood does or if he progresses with the Chiefs; i think they consider him a good special-teamer and maybe a guy who could play some LB there ; don't count on him getting cut just because he is making a bit more than NFL minimum after a few years - nice theory on paper though.

I agree with your basic premise, that it is less likely now than it was 15-20 yrs ago that Canadians who have played for any length of time in the NFL will sign in the CFL. The salary they can earn in three or four years down there, even on the PR, can make them unlikely to accept the kind of money they would get in Cda. But some of the examples you cite are a stretch. Kazcur made tons of money as a long-term starter, and was beaten up by the end of his time in NE. Federkeil (as has been reported many times) suffered an injury that meant his health would be jeopardized if he kept playing. Dawson is an Ivy League grad who probably had/has the ability to earn way more money in business than he ever could in the CFL. Darche played so many years in the NFL (nine) that he probably doesn't need to work, period. Same with Biakabatuka (six years). Montreuil is the one guy on your list who I thought probably would come back to the CFL; who knows why he didn't.

[RoRoYoBoat]

The longer he plays in the NFL. The least likely he is to play in the CFL for all the reasons mentioned above. However he was interviewed on TSN radio a few months back and he did not sound like he had any contempt or negative feelings towards the CFL.

[Rich]

Let me get this straight: people talk optimistically about Greenwood's possible return, when in fact not a single Argo draftee under similar circumstances has returned to the Argos in over 20 years. And yet very few here are prepared to blame a flawed draft strategy involving picking high-risk players in round one instead of safe picks who are much more likely to stay in Canada. I don't get it.

[KCargosfan]

Much as I'd love to see it - I'll bet Greenwood never shows-up for the Argos. And while there are a number of Canadian players who have come to the CFL after being in the NFL for awhile or even a bit, there is a much lengthier list of guys who did not. Schultz played when NFL money was not near what it is now. There are a number of reasons such guys may never report to the CFL: they made good coin down there so are financially set; they got injured badly or even nicked enough to want to give-up football; or, maybe they don't have much respect for the CFL - due to ego/CFL image or lower pay, or the 2nd class treatment (arguably of course) given to Canadian players in this "radical" league.

Funny, I don't see Nick Kazcur or Dan Federkeil suiting up for the Argos this TC; nor Clifton Dawson; did JP Darche want to come back to the CFL? Tim Biakabtuka ever show up?; Mark Montreuil? - did or have the Argos seriously persued such players after they were done in the NFL? (and Glenn Young was drafted by the Ticats; O'Shea was already an established CFL star who signed as a FA with the Argos after a try-out in Detroit).

We'll see how Greenwood does or if he progresses with the Chiefs; i think they consider him a good special-teamer and maybe a guy who could play some LB there ; don't count on him getting cut just because he is making a bit more than NFL minimum after a few years - nice theory on paper though.

I will take your bet. I'm not wealthy, so sometime next summer, if we both want to send money, such as $50-$100 to a trustworthy poster on here such as pw13 or AngeloV or argolio or a moderator, let me know.

Kaczur likely made close to $10 million in the NFL over 5 years including playoff money and bonuses. He was also a 3rd round NFL draft pick and received a 6-figure signing bonus.
Federkeil -- injuries.
Darche as pw13 said, 9 seasons in the NFL = lots of money, he was also a specialist.
Biakabutuka was the No. 8 pick in the '96 NFL draft and received millions in signing bonus money alone. He then played 5 years in the NFL at 1st round draft pick money contract.

Greenwood was not drafted and his signing bonus in '10, if there even was one, would have been 20K or less. He is not a specialist, therefore I don't see many comparisons to anyone above other than he is Canadian.

In 3 years in the NFL, he will have made roughly $1.2 million gross. If he isn't back with KC for '13 or '14, it's not like he'll have made the money the above 3 guys did. So if the option is to get a real job or play in the CFL for $100K+ a year, I would guess he'd take the latter. I think of Greenwood as more similar to Sam Giguere than any of the guys you mentioned.

Greenwood is literally one of the last 8 guys on Kansas City's 53-man roster. All of the above is why I think there is a pretty good shot we see him in '13 or '14.

[Wobbler]

Rich:

For one thing, you are talking about a pretty short list. How many first round draft picks have the Argos permanently lost to the NFL in the past 20 years? We had 17 first round picks in that time, and permanently lost two of them (Kaczur and Federkeil) to the NFL. That doesn't seem like a meaningful statistic.

[ArgoRavi]

Let me get this straight: people talk optimistically about Greenwood's possible return, when in fact not a single Argo draftee under similar circumstances has returned to the Argos in over 20 years. And yet very few here are prepared to blame a flawed draft strategy involving picking high-risk players in round one instead of safe picks who are much more likely to stay in Canada. I don't get it.

Greenwood was not a high-risk pick. The prime period for undrafted free agent signings had passed by the time that the Argos drafted him. It was seen to be very unlikely that Greenwood would be NFL-bound by that point and even Greenwood himself did not expect to be signed by an NFL team at that time. It was bad luck for the Argos and good luck for Greenwood that there was a late injury in KC which opened up a spot for him.

[paulwoods13]

Let me get this straight: people talk optimistically about Greenwood's possible return, when in fact not a single Argo draftee under similar circumstances has returned to the Argos in over 20 years. And yet very few here are prepared to blame a flawed draft strategy involving picking high-risk players in round one instead of safe picks who are much more likely to stay in Canada. I don't get it.

But (again) what is the better strategy? Take guys who are not likely to go the NFL because they're definitely not good enough? Wouldn't that mean passing on a lot of better players, many of whom would eventually (or immediately) end up in the CFL?

[RoRoYoBoat]

Let me get this straight: people talk optimistically about Greenwood's possible return, when in fact not a single Argo draftee under similar circumstances has returned to the Argos in over 20 years. And yet very few here are prepared to blame a flawed draft strategy involving picking high-risk players in round one instead of safe picks who are much more likely to stay in Canada. I don't get it.

I agree. Some teams like Montreal, BC and Calgaryl have drafted plenty of NCAA juniors and guys who had try-out and NFL PR contracts and seen just about every one of them. Like I wrote you have to do your homework and it helps to have contacts in the NFL to get some inside information as to how these prospects are viewed. 2010 was a spectacular draft no less than 25 players from that draft are active on CFL rosters, the Argos had NINE picks including #2 and #3 and have next to nothing to show for it two years later. They passed over guys like Watson, Bomben, Gore, Foster, Bulcke just to name a few.


But (again) what is the better strategy? Take guys who are not likely to go the NFL because they're definitely not good enough? Wouldn't that mean passing on a lot of better players, many of whom would eventually (or immediately) end up in the CFL?

Reinders over Bomben or Bender ?
Greenwood over Matte or Bender

Argos would have no problem fielding a NI Oline had they used common sense in the 2010 draft. That is the first priority building your NI talent. When you've got that sorted you can get cute with returners and linebackers. Three words come to mind with Argo scouting in the last 10 years. Lazy, drunk, incompetent.

[AngeloV]

I don't get all the flack some on here are giving the Argos over the drafting of Greenwood. Honestly, In the history of the NFL, how many CIS trained players have played in the NFL? 5? 10? I love the comments about the Argos not doing their homework when they drafted him because it was well known he was going to the NFL. Who's feeding all of you this information? Pretty easy to bring this up 3 years later.

[RoRoYoBoat]

I don't get all the flack some on here are giving the Argos over the drafting of Greenwood. Honestly, In the history of the NFL, how many CIS trained players have played in the NFL? 5? 10? I love the comments about the Argos not doing their homework when they drafted him because it was well known he was going to the NFL. Who's feeding all of you this information? Pretty easy to bring this up 3 years later.

Angelo are you happy with how we drafted over the last five or six years ?

How about Holmes, Reinders. It's not just Greenwood but in his case it was obvious there was a very good chance that he would get picked up by an NFL club. At the time Jim Popp was asked by Montreal reporters if he was going to try and move up to draft him and his answer was point blank "No, Greenwood is going to the NFL.".

I just don't think this team is in a position to gamble on or trade draft picks right now.

[KCargosfan]

It's not just Greenwood but in his case it was obvious there was a very good chance that he would get picked up by an NFL club. At the time Jim Popp was asked by Montreal reporters if he was going to try and move up to draft him and his answer was point blank "No, Greenwood is going to the NFL.".


lol, sure.

[RoRoYoBoat]

lol, sure.

Laughs the guy who had no clue who Feoli-Godino was. A real expert on the goings on of College ball in Canada.

[OV Argo]

Interesting discussion on Argos draft history and strategy, guys; and some interesting comparisons.

IMO - Kaczur is a classic example of a big gamble / potential total waste of a 1st round CFL draft pick - guy was a 4 year starter and all-star at a Div I program - obvious NFL type; OTOH - Federkeil was more the opposite end of the scale - CIS D-Lineman who although he played in the Shrine game, was not real huge nor had any eye-popping testing #s at the CFL E-Camp; i doubt anybody would have predicted that he makes the NFL as an O-Lineman (influence of Cal Murphy as a Colts scout was a factor i'd believe) - so Argo draft thinkers probably thought he was a good, safe bet for a 1st round pick. Greenwood more in between - top defensive player in all of Canadian college ball, PLUS he put up a superb set of testing #s at the Combine (probably as good a set of testing # for first rounder NFL draft type NCAA linebackers from big DI programs), and PLUS - it was known that NFL scouts had been sniffing around this guy (heard that before his final CIS season); SO - Argo personnel thinkers should have been aware of these factors, seems to me anywho - and been a bit leery of using a FIRST round pick on such a player - top CIS players have been drawing more and more attention over the past few years by the NFL; not sure Barker has much clue here though?

Not that CFL teams should ignore top talent available in their draft, but IMO it comes down to making sure a first rounder is going to be a guy who shows up pretty well for sure for you and plus addresses a team need. Fine to gamble on NFL flight risks (in the later rounds like Biakabatuka or Dawson, or recent CFL draft picks like Vaughn Martin or Phil Blake), OR - maybe if you have 2 first rounders and your team is already stocked with lots of NI talent - then sure, make a gamble type pick. IMO again - a CFL team with serious need for NIs, should almost NEVER be using their first round / top pick on a player who is viewed as even a decent NFL prospect - and because - most importantly - there is almost always plenty of very good talent available in the first couple of rounds of the CFL draft who end up making and playing well for CFL teams and a lot of these guys are pretty well sure bets to show-up for you and maybe contribute right away. Comes down to respect for a number of top draftable NIs - not sure it is there for a lot of CFL thinkers - so they have little hesitation to gamble or waste top picks on players because they are "great athletes" or the "best player" (whatever the **** that means), or else on "projects" they have taken a liking to for not real sound football reasons it seems sometimes. I'd always use my top CFL pick on proven football players who are very unlikely to get an NFL look; rather than on NFL potential guys or pie in the sky "projects" - use a top pick on a guy you are quite certain will be happy to report to the CFL and who is a player in an area of need; save the NFL flight risks or projects for the later rounds.

[RoRoYoBoat]

Interesting discussion on Argos draft history and strategy, guys; and some interesting comparisons.

IMO - Kaczur is a classic example of a big gamble / potential total waste of a 1st round CFL draft pick - guy was a 4 year starter and all-star at a Div I program - obvious NFL type; OTOH - Federkeil was more the opposite end of the scale - CIS D-Lineman who although he played in the Shrine game, was not real huge nor had any eye-popping testing #s at the CFL E-Camp; i doubt anybody would have predicted that he makes the NFL as an O-Lineman (influence of Cal Murphy as a Colts scout was a factor i'd believe) - so Argo draft thinkers probably thought he was a good, safe bet for a 1st round pick. Greenwood more in between - top defensive player in all of Canadian college ball, PLUS he put up a superb set of testing #s at the Combine (probably as good a set of testing # for first rounder NFL draft type NCAA linebackers from big DI programs), and PLUS - it was known that NFL scouts had been sniffing around this guy (heard that before his final CIS season); SO - Argo personnel thinkers should have been aware of these factors, seems to me anywho - and been a bit leery of using a FIRST round pick on such a player - top CIS players have been drawing more and more attention over the past few years by the NFL; not sure Barker has much clue here though?

Not that CFL teams should ignore top talent available in their draft, but IMO it comes down to making sure a first rounder is going to be a guy who shows up pretty well for sure for you and plus addresses a team need. Fine to gamble on NFL flight risks (in the later rounds like Biakabatuka or Dawson, or recent CFL draft picks like Vaughn Martin or Phil Blake), OR - maybe if you have 2 first rounders and your team is already stocked with lots of NI talent - then sure, make a gamble type pick. IMO again - a CFL team with serious need for NIs, should almost NEVER be using their first round / top pick on a player who is viewed as even a decent NFL prospect - and because - most importantly - there is almost always plenty of very good talent available in the first couple of rounds of the CFL draft who end up making and playing well for CFL teams and a lot of these guys are pretty well sure bets to show-up for you and maybe contribute right away. Comes down to respect for a number of top draftable NIs - not sure it is there for a lot of CFL thinkers - so they have little hesitation to gamble or waste top picks on players because they are "great athletes" or the "best player" (whatever the **** that means), or else on "projects" they have taken a liking to for not real sound football reasons it seems sometimes. I'd always use my top CFL pick on proven football players who are very unlikely to get an NFL look; rather than on NFL potential guys or pie in the sky "projects" - use a top pick on a guy you are quite certain will be happy to report to the CFL and who is a player in an area of need; save the NFL flight risks or projects for the later rounds.

Bang ! That easy... Buy the groceries before the lottery ticktets.

[Rich]

But (again) what is the better strategy? Take guys who are not likely to go the NFL because they're definitely not good enough? Wouldn't that mean passing on a lot of better players, many of whom would eventually (or immediately) end up in the CFL?

Paul, your inner Brunt is showing. Too many Canadians think the NFL has some kind of magic crystal ball that allows them to distinguish those players who are "good enough" for the NFL from those who are not. Well they don't. NFL teams spend millions of dollars on scouting and player development, and still almost half of the 1st-round picks in the NFL draft turn out to be stiffs. Sure, it's easy for them to take an Andrew Luck or a Trent Richardson, who are clearly way, way better than anyone coming into the CFL. But beyond the obvious elite talents, player evaluation is and always will be a crapshoot.

So what they do then is rely on the measurables. When a player scores exceptionally high at the combine, as I understand Greenwood did, then that player has to be considered a possible NFL prospect. The NFL took Reinders because he runs exceptionally well for such a big guy. But they had absolutely no idea if he could actually play the game or not.

So to answer your question, a better drafting strategy would be to identify great Canadian football players who don't have the exceptional measurables to make it onto the NFL radar. A guy can be good enough but not big enough for the NFL. Secondly the team should concentrate more on drafting CIS players. Third, if there's a guy with exceptional ability and character who openly states he wants to play in the CFL, then you bloody well take him if you have the chance.

[argolio]

I remember there being more NFL speculation concerning Shomari Williams in 2010 than for Greenwood. This year, there were some doubts whether Ben Heenan would be safe at #1 overall. In the end, CFL teams are at the mercy of the possibility of an agent finding a fit for his client down south.

As for drafting Kaczur in 2005, that was a pretty big mistake, especially considering we drafted him a few days after the NFL draft. Maybe coming off the Grey Cup win made our management too over-confident.

[ArgoGabe22]

The Argos aren't the only one's who are losing picks to the NFL. Danny Watkins and Phil Blake were both first round "futures" last year. Honestly no one thought Holmes would be an NFLer with his size and what not but it just happened and all you can do is congratulate the kid. Montreal made a gamble with Vaughn Martin in the 4th round, its great to have his rights but he will probably never play a down here. Cory Mace was drafted by WPG but for some strange reason we traded for him, now that is something I'm not happy with. We basically gave ABIII away for nothing. Gore and Lee were both players getting NFL interest yet the Lions still gambled on them. I personally don't like going for futures but you're making it seem the Argos are the only one's doing it.

I agree with Jim Popp, the CFL draft should only include Seniors who are ready to play right away. Players still may sign down south but at least they have a better sense of who.

[ArgoRavi]

I remember there being more NFL speculation concerning Shomari Williams in 2010 than for Greenwood. This year, there were some doubts whether Ben Heenan would be safe at #1 overall. In the end, CFL teams are at the mercy of the possibility of an agent finding a fit for his client down south.

As for drafting Kaczur in 2005, that was a pretty big mistake, especially considering we drafted him a few days after the NFL draft. Maybe coming off the Grey Cup win made our management too over-confident.

Kaczur was a terrible pick. Greenwood was not as Barker would have had to have psychic abilities to know that a KC player would be injured which was the only way that Greenwood would be in the NFL. If that player were not injured, Greenwood would likely be an Argo starter in 2012 and everyone would be hailing Barker as making a genius pick.

[Argocister]

[QUOTE=ArgoGabe22;7178

I agree with Jim Popp, the CFL draft should only include Seniors who are ready to play right away. Players still may sign down south but at least they have a better sense of who.[/QUOTE]

I also agree with this as well as Popps statement regarding adding more rounds to the draft. Right now it appears worthwhile to lay your claim on the futures and those that may end up in the NFL, as there will still be a pool of good prospects to chose from afterwards. But I have a question, how many players from the draft can or would be signed? If you had 10 rounds, would a team sign all 10 players?

[AngeloV]

The Argos aren't the only one's who are losing picks to the NFL. Danny Watkins and Phil Blake were both first round "futures" last year. Honestly no one thought Holmes would be an NFLer with his size and what not but it just happened and all you can do is congratulate the kid. Montreal made a gamble with Vaughn Martin in the 4th round, its great to have his rights but he will probably never play a down here. Cory Mace was drafted by WPG but for some strange reason we traded for him, now that is something I'm not happy with. We basically gave ABIII away for nothing. Gore and Lee were both players getting NFL interest yet the Lions still gambled on them. I personally don't like going for futures but you're making it seem the Argos are the only one's doing it.

I agree with Jim Popp, the CFL draft should only include Seniors who are ready to play right away. Players still may sign down south but at least they have a better sense of who.

Exactly the points I was trying to make. I'm really getting tired of the "the sky is falling" mentality of a few on here.

[RoRoYoBoat]

The Argos aren't the only one's who are losing picks to the NFL. Danny Watkins and Phil Blake were both first round "futures" last year. Honestly no one thought Holmes would be an NFLer with his size and what not but it just happened and all you can do is congratulate the kid. Montreal made a gamble with Vaughn Martin in the 4th round, its great to have his rights but he will probably never play a down here. Cory Mace was drafted by WPG but for some strange reason we traded for him, now that is something I'm not happy with. We basically gave ABIII away for nothing. Gore and Lee were both players getting NFL interest yet the Lions still gambled on them. I personally don't like going for futures but you're making it seem the Argos are the only one's doing it.

I agree with Jim Popp, the CFL draft should only include Seniors who are ready to play right away. Players still may sign down south but at least they have a better sense of who.

Phil Blake was not a first round pick. He was the last pick of the third round and the Als third pick "flyer"...

[paulwoods13]

Paul, your inner Brunt is showing.

Thanks, that is a big compliment!


NFL teams spend millions of dollars on scouting and player development, and still almost half of the 1st-round picks in the NFL draft turn out to be stiffs. Sure, it's easy for them to take an Andrew Luck or a Trent Richardson, who are clearly way, way better than anyone coming into the CFL. But beyond the obvious elite talents, player evaluation is and always will be a crapshoot.

Agreed, and the exact same thing applies here. For every high draft pick who spurned the CFL for the NFL, I could find you at least one (and probably more) high draft pick who simply failed to pan out, period. All of us experts who come on these boards and pronounce on the success or failure of a particular team's draft should go to sleep for at least three years, then take another shot.


So what they do then is rely on the measurables. When a player scores exceptionally high at the combine, as I understand Greenwood did, then that player has to be considered a possible NFL prospect. The NFL took Reinders because he runs exceptionally well for such a big guy. But they had absolutely no idea if he could actually play the game or not.

So to answer your question, a better drafting strategy would be to identify great Canadian football players who don't have the exceptional measurables to make it onto the NFL radar. A guy can be good enough but not big enough for the NFL. Secondly the team should concentrate more on drafting CIS players. Third, if there's a guy with exceptional ability and character who openly states he wants to play in the CFL, then you bloody well take him if you have the chance.

Sounds logical, and on some levels it appears to make sense. But quite a few guys have good measurables. Should they all then be left until the fourth or fifth rounds while demonstrably inferior players are drafted? How would drafting more CIS players help? Greenwood played CIS. So did Giguere. So did other players who have passed on the CFL for the NFL. And the vast majority of the NCAA guys who get drafted do not sign with an NFL club. There's simply no logical connection that I can see between the system a guy plays in and the likelihood he will want to sign with, or be signed by, an NFL club. (Unless you are suggesting CIS athletes are inherently of less interest to NFL teams, which I doubt you are.) And finally, I don't believe there are any players "with exceptional ability and character" who truly want to play only in the CFL. I do not have any evidence to prove this, but I believe it. Maybe there have been some highly regarded players in recent years who said publicly that they had no interest in the NFL, and actually meant it. But I would bet that every single guy who goes into the draft hopes, at least privately, that he will be signed by an NFL team, if for no other reason than to have a shot at greater pay and to be tested against what would generally be considered (by football players, not necesssarily by CFL fans) as the highest level of competition.

BTW, those who are claiming that Reinders was a wasted pick -- he was taken, as I recall, in the fifth or sixth rounds. If he was drafted first or second, a case could be made that the pick was wasted (although it's been only two years since since his draft, so still too early to really judge). But near the end of the draft, it does not hurt to take a flyer on a guy who clearly has NFL aspirations but seems a good bet to end up in the CFL. Even some of those who have a different perspective on the draft than I do seem to agree that there's no harm in taking a longshot in later rounds.

[gilthethrill]

Kaczur was a terrible pick. Greenwood was not as Barker would have had to have psychic abilities to know that a KC player would be injured which was the only way that Greenwood would be in the NFL. If that player were not injured, Greenwood would likely be an Argo starter in 2012 and everyone would be hailing Barker as making a genius pick.

Dan Fiederkell is another 1st round Argo pick out of the CIS that had unexpected success in the NFL prior to retiring.

[OV Argo]

Kaczur was a terrible pick. Greenwood was not as Barker would have had to have psychic abilities to know that a KC player would be injured which was the only way that Greenwood would be in the NFL. If that player were not injured, Greenwood would likely be an Argo starter in 2012 and everyone would be hailing Barker as making a genius pick.


Really Ravi? - Greenwood would be a starter for the Argos this season - at MLB i guess? - could well be i suppose - seems like a pretty talented player; but i wouldn't bet that he is a sure fire starter for Barker/Millanovich and a Jones defence; could also be he would get low-balled with a contract offer and have to make his mark mostly on special teams to begin with. Be interesting to see though - maybe by next season when some are pretty sure he will show-up for the Argos. Tyler Holmes going to be a starting OT if he shows up for the Argos this season? Eppelle pretty well a sure bet to be a starter this year? I'll bet 2011 18th overall pick Kouame is right up there in the running to compete at receiver this year too? Is 2009 Argos 10th overall pick Matt Lambros coming to TC to compete at receiver too? = could be a real battle between Kouame, Lambros, Steven Turner and this year's pick Hurst in the receiving corps. ;0)

[KCargosfan]

Laughs the guy who had no clue who Feoli-Godino was. A real expert on the goings on of College ball in Canada.

Says the guy who said the Chiefs have big plans for Greenwood. You're a real expert on the Chiefs, right?

Where's this quote from Popp about Greenwood?

My knowledge of Feoli-Godino or the CIS has nothing to do with you making silly statements about Greenwood and the Chiefs. I've never claimed to be a CIS or CFL expert, but I am pretty certain I know more about what's going on with the Chiefs and its roster more than anyone else on this board.

[ArgoRavi]

Really Ravi? - Greenwood would be a starter for the Argos this season - at MLB i guess? - could well be i suppose - seems like a pretty talented player; but i wouldn't bet that he is a sure fire starter for Barker/Millanovich and a Jones defence; could also be he would get low-balled with a contract offer and have to make his mark mostly on special teams to begin with. Be interesting to see though - maybe by next season when some are pretty sure he will show-up for the Argos. Tyler Holmes going to be a starting OT if he shows up for the Argos this season? Eppelle pretty well a sure bet to be a starter this year? I'll bet 2011 18th overall pick Kouame is right up there in the running to compete at receiver this year too? Is 2009 Argos 10th overall pick Matt Lambros coming to TC to compete at receiver too? = could be a real battle between Kouame, Lambros, Steven Turner and this year's pick Hurst in the receiving corps. ;0)

I am not saying that Greenwood would have walked in and been a starter this year. If he had been around in Toronto for two years already playing on special teams and getting some occasional time on defence, he would have had a good chance of starting this year. BTW, Eppele is likely to be a starter on the offensive line this year as he was during the second half of last season.

[argolio]

I've never claimed to be a CIS or CFL expert, but I am pretty certain I know more about what's going on with the Chiefs and its roster more than anyone else on this board.Is Steve Fuller making a comeback this year?


From the their team site:

Inside Linebacker (4) – Jovan Belcher isn’t part of this list, yet. Pencil him in for a return alongside Derrick Johnson since he’s only a restricted free agent.

Outside of Johnson and Belcher, the Chiefs have room for addition. Brandon Siler could be a capable backup to both inside positions and possibly even push Belcher for a starting job, but is coming off a torn Achilles. Cory Greenwood makes his mark on special teams and Caleb Campbell was on the practice squad last season.

Free agent addition or draft pick? There’s an argument for either. The Chiefs have yet to draft an inside linebacker under Pioli’s watch.What I'm getting from this pre-camp analysis is that the writer believes Greenwood is more likely to stay in the same role rather than move up or down.

[RoRoYoBoat]

Says the guy who said the Chiefs have big plans for Greenwood. You're a real expert on the Chiefs, right?

Where's this quote from Popp about Greenwood?

My knowledge of Feoli-Godino or the CIS has nothing to do with you making silly statements about Greenwood and the Chiefs. I've never claimed to be a CIS or CFL expert, but I am pretty certain I know more about what's going on with the Chiefs and its roster more than anyone else on this board.

Please don't try and spin this around or make stuff up. Never said they had "grand plans" They gave him a new contract which says something and Greenwood was on TSN radio (the interview is on Itunes) and he did not sound like a player on the bubble at all. Your making an educated guess that he will be of no interest to any NFL squad and released before he becomes eligible for an NFL pension and that's your opinion does not make it so. You may be a Chief's fan but the NFL does not end with the Chiefs. He may join the Argos at some point but there are no guarantees. He could also be injured and end his career prematurely and never suit up for the Argos.

As for a quote from Popp I heard it with my own ears and I don't walk around with the voice recorder on my android on all the time. Popp's record in the CFL is tops in the CFL and most consider him on of the top two GM ever to work in this league. Others on here have confirmed to you that there was a lot of NFL scouts following Greenwood's progress at Concordia. We won't even get into the fact that even if Greenwood came to the CFL he would have to be offered a two year contract option.

As for the draft record of the Argos. It is brutal and it isn't a Jim Barker thing, it goes way back. Look at what Tillman has built for talent on his oline in Edmonton in just two years. The CFL has a very specific path to building a championship roster. I'd say 80 to 90 percent of Grey Cup winners in the last 10 to 20 years have had dominant all Canadian offensive line.

[paulwoods13]

Never said they had "grand plans" They gave him a new contract which says something and Greenwood was on TSN radio (the interview is on Itunes) and he did not sound like a player on the bubble at all.

He was a solid contributor on special teams the last two seasons -- it would have been news if they hadn't given him a new contract. As has been pointed out, that contract is pretty well the minimum for a third-year player, which is about what any undrafted special teams guy would get in his third year. He may not feel he's on the bubble, but does any athlete ever feel he is? In fact, he probably isn't on the bubble this year, given that every team needs good ST guys and the Chiefs do not appear to have a lot of depth at LB. But will he still be kept around for a fourth year? If he's still playing special teams only and is making fourth-year money, I'm suggesting there's a decent chance he will be let go and replaced by a younger, cheaper player who can do those things. It would be great for him (and for the CIS) if he were to stay long-term, but I'd say chances are no better than 50-50 he plays four full years with the Chiefs.

[OV Argo]

He was a solid contributor on special teams the last two seasons -- it would have been news if they hadn't given him a new contract. As has been pointed out, that contract is pretty well the minimum for a third-year player, which is about what any undrafted special teams guy would get in his third year. He may not feel he's on the bubble, but does any athlete ever feel he is? In fact, he probably isn't on the bubble this year, given that every team needs good ST guys and the Chiefs do not appear to have a lot of depth at LB. But will he still be kept around for a fourth year? If he's still playing special teams only and is making fourth-year money, I'm suggesting there's a decent chance he will be let go and replaced by a younger, cheaper player who can do those things. It would be great for him (and for the CIS) if he were to stay long-term, but I'd say chances are no better than 50-50 he plays four full years with the Chiefs.


IF - Grennwood is considered an excellent special teamer AND a pretty good LB who could play there - at least as a very capable back-up, I`d opine the chances of him sticking in KC are a lot better than 50-50; i doubt they cut a guy just because he is in line for `4th year money`, unless they draft or sign some superb new LB prospects; some guys have made good, long NFL careers out of being top special teamers anyways - including former CFLers like JP Darche or Bennie Thompson (both of whom played for the Chiefs in question at one time).

[paulwoods13]

IF - Grennwood is considered an excellent special teamer AND a pretty good LB who could play there - at least as a very capable back-up, I`d opine the chances of him sticking in KC are a lot better than 50-50; i doubt they cut a guy just because he is in line for `4th year money`, unless they draft or sign some superb new LB prospects; some guys have made good, long NFL careers out of being top special teamers anyways - including former CFLers like JP Darche or Bennie Thompson (both of whom played for the Chiefs in question at one time).

We'll find out who's right within the next 16 months. If he's still with the Chiefs in September 2013, he will have made it to his fourth year in the NFL. Until then (or sooner if he happens to get cut sooner), we're all left with our opinions about whether or not he will survive that long, and no one can be certain of what's going to happen.

Darche was a much different situation, IMO, because he played a harder-to-fill specialty role as a long snapper. There are probably dozens of linebackers who can cover kicks in the NFL for every player who can successfully snap the ball to the punter or kicker. I have no info about Thompson's career as a special teamer in the NFL but I don't doubt that he played there for quite for a while.

[ArgoRavi]

i doubt they cut a guy just because he is in line for `4th year money`, unless they draft or sign some superb new LB prospects

This happens a lot every year in the NFL as fourth year players are due sizable raises. If they aren't considered to be guys that are likely to be starting at that point, they will be let go and replaced by younger players and many of these fourth year players end up in the CFL. Perhaps Greenwood will be kept because he is one of the best special team players in the league or perhaps he will be starting material by his fourth year but if he isn't either of those things, don't be surprised to see him in Toronto in 2013 or 2014.

[OV Argo]

This happens a lot every year in the NFL as fourth year players are due sizable raises. If they aren't considered to be guys that are likely to be starting at that point, they will be let go and replaced by younger players and many of these fourth year players end up in the CFL. Perhaps Greenwood will be kept because he is one of the best special team players in the league or perhaps he will be starting material by his fourth year but if he isn't either of those things, don't be surprised to see him in Toronto in 2013 or 2014.

The sizeable raise you're referring to is chump change in the NFL; if a team likes a guy enough, he will be kept around, and won't get cut for the sake of saving a few NFL bucks; huge contract, over the hill / oft injured types is another matter - Greenwood ain't one of those.

[Rich]

Sounds logical, and on some levels it appears to make sense. But quite a few guys have good measurables. Should they all then be left until the fourth or fifth rounds while demonstrably inferior players are drafted? How would drafting more CIS players help? Greenwood played CIS. So did Giguere. So did other players who have passed on the CFL for the NFL. And the vast majority of the NCAA guys who get drafted do not sign with an NFL club. There's simply no logical connection that I can see between the system a guy plays in and the likelihood he will want to sign with, or be signed by, an NFL club. (Unless you are suggesting CIS athletes are inherently of less interest to NFL teams, which I doubt you are.) And finally, I don't believe there are any players "with exceptional ability and character" who truly want to play only in the CFL. I do not have any evidence to prove this, but I believe it. Maybe there have been some highly regarded players in recent years who said publicly that they had no interest in the NFL, and actually meant it. But I would bet that every single guy who goes into the draft hopes, at least privately, that he will be signed by an NFL team, if for no other reason than to have a shot at greater pay and to be tested against what would generally be considered (by football players, not necesssarily by CFL fans) as the highest level of competition.


I completely agree that 99% of all Canadian players would go to the NFL if given the opportunity. But that doesn't necessarily mean that those who do go south are better players than those who remain here. High measurables do not necessarily make a player "demonstrably superior" to others. Giguere's time in the 40 was off the charts, but after 3 years in the Show, we still have no idea if this guy can play WR at the professional level. Who would you rather have in your lineup, NFL vet Giguere or a guy who was rejected by the NFL, Andy Fantuz?

As for a player who would choose to play in the CFL over the NFL, you would have to call these Pinball Exceptions. You could make a case to a guy that his long-term and business prospects are better served if he stays in Canada. This was certainly the case with Shomari Williams, who ironically has a business training young Canadian high-school football players how to get into US colleges. He stated openly before the draft that he wanted to stay in Canada because of his business, but unfortunately the Argonauts passed on the lead-pipe certain sure thing.

Pinball himself has certainly made the case to many American players that their long-term prospects are better in Canada. Cory Boyd is without question good enough for NFL rosters and has undoubtedly turned down offers to go there, because he bought into Pinball's philosophy. There are others too -- but the vast majority, as you say, would head south in a heartbeat.

[1argoholic]

The biggest thing about heading south is the money to be made. I remember we lost that long snapper to Seattle in 97 I believe. His bro played for the Canadians. He was making 500 thou US a year to just long snap. Drawing a blank as to his name. French Canadian guy.

[Treblecharger1]

I think it was J.P. Darche ( Think the spelling is wrong on that) Damn good long snapper! John Rapso was another excellent long snapper but pretty sure he ended up in the police force.

[KCargosfan]

Is Steve Fuller making a comeback this year?


From the their team site:
What I'm getting from this pre-camp analysis is that the writer believes Greenwood is more likely to stay in the same role rather than move up or down.

Haha, I hope not on Fuller.

I agree with your take. I expect Greenwood to play nearly every special teams play this season and play little to no snaps on defense like last year.


Please don't try and spin this around or make stuff up. Never said they had "grand plans" They gave him a new contract which says something and Greenwood was on TSN radio (the interview is on Itunes) and he did not sound like a player on the bubble at all. Your making an educated guess that he will be of no interest to any NFL squad and released before he becomes eligible for an NFL pension and that's your opinion does not make it so. You may be a Chief's fan but the NFL does not end with the Chiefs. He may join the Argos at some point but there are no guarantees. He could also be injured and end his career prematurely and never suit up for the Argos.

As for a quote from Popp I heard it with my own ears and I don't walk around with the voice recorder on my android on all the time. Popp's record in the CFL is tops in the CFL and most consider him on of the top two GM ever to work in this league. Others on here have confirmed to you that there was a lot of NFL scouts following Greenwood's progress at Concordia. We won't even get into the fact that even if Greenwood came to the CFL he would have to be offered a two year contract option.

On page 4 you said "They have plans for him and even if KC cut him he would find another job in the NFL with how he's progressed so far."

They gave him a league minimum contract for his service time -- big whoop. And for the second time I'll ask you, what progression are you referring to?

As to him being on radio -- who cares? Do you expect him to say, "If I make the team again..."

Greenwood will be one of the last 8 guys to make the active roster if he does so, but he is on the bubble.

You're also making an educated guess that he would be of interest if he were cut.

And where did I mention anything about pension-eligibility? My point is you aren't going to keep 4th and 5th year guys around just for special teams.

I doubt Popp ever said that, but whatever.

Others here have confirmed to you that Greenwood never would have gotten a shot in the NFL unless the Chiefs had a LB get injured in OTAs.

Greenwood signed on May 18, 2010. If he was such a hot NFL commodity, why didn't some other team sign him sooner and why did it take an injury for the Chiefs to bring him in?