Argos want what TFC has - and vice versa

[ArgoRavi]

A very good column by Steve Simmons: http://torontosun.com/sports/football/cfl/toronto-argonauts/argos-want-what-tfc-has-and-vice-versa

It is great to get updated TV numbers here.

[Neely2005]

Definitely an interesting read but I still don't agree with the Myth that it's all old white guys at Argonauts games. I see plenty of kids and families at every game.

[gilthethrill]

Definitely an interesting read but I still don't agree with the Myth that it's all old white guys at Argonauts games. I see plenty of kids and families at every game.

I am seeing that trend as well. Still believe TFC has hit it's peak and will level off in the very near future.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

I am seeing that trend as well. Still believe TFC has hit it's peak and will level off in the very near future.

As long as MLSE is buying designated players, the support will not not die off any time soon. MLS as a whole is a growth league and Toronto is one of the top 5 clubs.

[Mightygoose]

It's a good article but although both teams are poised for hopefully long playoff runs, the unfortunate part is the continued comparison between the 2 teams will take away from any on field success the Argos hope to have.

Argos brass can learn from what makes TFC a success and hopefully with the overlap in ownership they will.

Overall, the Argos early days in BMO are coinciding with what appears to be a golden era with TFC. Similar to the Argos early days in SkyDome occurring during the Jays glory years.

[doubleblue]

A very good column by Steve Simmons: http://torontosun.com/sports/football/cfl/toronto-argonauts/argos-want-what-tfc-has-and-vice-versa

It is great to get updated TV numbers here.

Interesting read. I was under the impression that the CFL TV rating were higher than the 473,000 mentioned and the TFC were around 80,000 from figures I have seen. That might have been last year's numbers I was thinking about though for TFC.
From watching and listening to the Sport Channels one would think the numbers were reversed. Little about the Argos, much about the Soccer team. Do the people who pay for advertisement not look at the viewer/listener numbers. I know I off to another channel if there is something about Soccer or Baskekball on, but maybe I'm one of the odd balls who only want to hear about the Argos, Leafs and Jays.
Stevie said the Argos averaged under 14,000 this year, and maybe including the pre-season game that could be true. But I don't think those ex games should be included. Even the mighty NFL plays in front of half empty stadiums in pre-season. According to cfl.ca game stats, the Argos average was 14,403 for their 9 regular season home games. 20,000 would be nice to see eventually. Going to be difficult selling ST's for the lower East side if they keep scheduling afternoon games in July and August. Talk about the Hot Stove League. Some People talk about things that "really burns their ..." but I don't think they have tried to sit on the lower East side for an Argo game for a summer afternoon game.

[gilthethrill]

As long as MLSE is buying designated players, the support will not not die off any time soon. MLS as a whole is a growth league and Toronto is one of the top 5 clubs.

Not all of these high priced imports pay off. I have no interest in MLS what so ever, but MLSE tried to buy championships several times over the years but failed. Once TFC starts becoming ordinary, or worse, the fans will stay away until they compete again.

[paulwoods13]

From watching and listening to the Sport Channels one would think the numbers were reversed. Little about the Argos, much about the Soccer team.

I don't watch Sportsnet very often, but I almost always PVR TSN's SportsCentre at 5 and 6 p.m. They have way more coverage of the CFL than MLS. It's not remotely close. Obviously now that MLS playoffs are here, with two Cdn teams in them, there is a fair bit of MLS coverage. But from June through end of October I would bet CFL gets at least 10 times the coverage MLS does on SportsCentre, and it may be a much higher ratio than that.

[timlb01]

One can look at this a few ways. MLS has a revenue stream of $550 million and the CFL has aprox has $200 million. You can argue MLS has more than double the teams but the bottom line is the same problem for the CFL is that Canada only does not have the population base to compete long term with other leagues that play in the US and here. I am not a MLS fan but I don't think from my perspective it is going to shrink but only grow. MLS has done a great job and have built purposeful stadiums for their teams which is something the CFL has been unable to do in Halifax and Quebec City to name two locations. CFL needs to stabilize the current teams but also grow by expanding. Sometimes growth / expansion can lead to stabilization. I think these types of arguments about the CFL and its health will go on forever as perception without US teams and revenue is it can never be as good.

I have made this argument before but the focus should be on how different the game is and how it takes different types of players to play the Canadian game. Maybe the CFL could target US expansion again and look to put teams into MLS specific stadiums.... now that would be something and I am sure with the love for real football they could generate a deeper TV contract then MLS.

[paulwoods13]

Maybe the CFL could target US expansion again and look to put teams into MLS specific stadiums.... now that would be something and I am sure with the love for real football they could generate a deeper TV contract then MLS.

Except most Americans don't consider the brand of football played in Canada to be "real" football. There was no MLS to compete with in 1993-95, yet we didn't see the CFL getting on U.S. network TV, so why would it happen now? The U.S. expansion days are over and won't be repeated IMO. Get into Halifax if possible (of course there's no stadium and a million other reasons why it's far from happening) but anything above a 10-team league in my lifetime would be a shocker.

[timlb01]

Except most Americans don't consider the brand of football played in Canada to be "real" football. There was no MLS to compete with in 1993-95, yet we didn't see the CFL getting on U.S. network TV, so why would it happen now? The U.S. expansion days are over and won't be repeated IMO. Get into Halifax if possible (of course there's no stadium and a million other reasons why it's far from happening) but anything above a 10-team league in my lifetime would be a shocker.

I agree that I do not see the US expansion again. I don't think it should be completely dismissed. One of the real issues back in 1993-5 was the fact it was done in a rush as the league needed the cash infusion. I think if we look at the USFL example it is possible to get a foot hold in that market. But like you said I too do not see it happening again.

I would like to see Halifax and Quebec City along with another city. That would be great. I saw on 3downnation.com that the Comish was talking about expansion but more forcefully. I hope it happens.

[paulwoods13]

As always with expansion talk, two things are prerequisites: stadium and ownership. I don't see anyone building CFL-calibre stadiums in any city any time soon. If Halifax could get a big international event like Pan-Ams or Commonwealth Games, it might happen, but neither seems likely in foreseeable future. Quebec City spent a lot of public money on an NHL-sized hockey arena that does not have an NHL team -- hard to see govt coughing up for a stadium.

A 12-team CFL would be fabulous (but extremely unlikely), a 10-team league would be way more than 11% better than what we have now, but I'm not expecting even the latter in the next five years.

[Tobythor]

As always with expansion talk, two things are prerequisites: stadium and ownership. I don't see anyone building CFL-calibre stadiums in any city any time soon. If Halifax could get a big international event like Pan-Ams or Commonwealth Games, it might happen, but neither seems likely in foreseeable future. Quebec City spent a lot of public money on an NHL-sized hockey arena that does not have an NHL team -- hard to see govt coughing up for a stadium.

A 12-team CFL would be fabulous (but extremely unlikely), a 10-team league would be way more than 11% better than what we have now, but I'm not expecting even the latter in the next five years.

Unfortunately, Halifax was considering a Commowealth games bid about 10 years and decided against it due to cost. Too bad, I was hoping it would help get a stadium for a CFL team as well.

[Topshelf]

That was a suprisingly fair article to both sides. The TFC GameDay experience is fantastic, they seem to be on the upward trend, but it is true their tv numbers are dismal. Heck, I'm an SSH for tfc and I never watch regular season away games.

Can the Argos replicate that atmosphere at BMO. I'd say doubtful, but ottawa has proven that cfl franchises can bounce back.

Everyone knows who the Argos are. But their biggest star isn't on the field. Pinball is loved by this city, as he should be. But Ray is a future hall of famer and doesn't carry the same status I'd say as TFC's big 3.

The only knock against the Simmons piece is that we all know that, it's been the same storyline for at least 2 years, it's an article that would have been better placed in the preseason next year highlighting what the argos had planned to bring the fans off their couch and to bmo

[AngeloV]

Everyone knows who the Argos are. But their biggest star isn't on the field. Pinball is loved by this city, as he should be. But Ray is a future hall of famer and doesn't carry the same status I'd say as TFC's big 3.



TFC's big 3 make huge money. I've said for a long time that the attitude in Toronto is quite often based strictly on money, and not entertainment value. Because the other teams in the city have players making multi-million dollars annually, and not 1 Argo player is even close to that, many people perceive the Argos as being minor league.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

TFC will never have the Canada-wide viewership that the Argos have. Interest in TFC is largely within the 416 and the GTA, so the TV numbers will always be limited.

While the Argos may have limited interest in the 6ix, they do have the advantage of a Canada-wide audience by virtue of the fact they are always playing another CFL team.

[argotom]

Definitely an interesting read but I still don't agree with the Myth that it's all old white guys at Argonauts games. I see plenty of kids and families at every game.

Absolutely, that's one of the things that I have noticed the last few years and it has been on the increase.

[Shatto]

Numbers can be interpreted many ways based on one's bias but here is one possible take on the numbers, assuming they are correct.

Approximately, for every one TFC fan who attends their games, 3 people watch the TFC games on TV. Whereas, for every one Argo fan who attends games, about 30 people watch their games on TV. This seems to indicate, TFC is hugely popular with a relatively small local group but the rest of the country is relatively uninterested in the team. With the Argos it appears to be the opposite, with less interest in the team locally but a seemingly strong interest across the country.

IMO, it should be an easier task, to increase stadium numbers than national TV numbers. If Copeland et al can manage to address the attendance concerns, the Argos will be on very strong footing. My only concern, is Copeland has been extremely unsuccessful so far and numbers have actually gone down this year, which raises the question of how long can ownership continue to stay with this CEO. The next couple of years will be crucial in the team's future. A CEO and marketing manager, who can increase attendance are of essential importance to the team, right now. The window is small and the team deserves the best possible people in place to attract fans to the stadium. Hopefully Copeland will be able to do the job but if not, for the sake of the team, changes will have to be made.

[paulwoods13]

Excellent analysis, Shatto.

[OV Argo]

TFC will never have the Canada-wide viewership that the Argos have. Interest in TFC is largely within the 416 and the GTA, so the TV numbers will always be limited.

While the Argos may have limited interest in the 6ix, they do have the advantage of a Canada-wide audience by virtue of the fact they are always playing another CFL team.

Soccer may continue to grow in popularity in Canada, but IMO, pro soccer will never become huge and approach even close to viewership numbers of hockey, OR, football - which (and a lot of people, like Simmons, don't get this) - IS a Canadian game - invented here and played here, competitively, at many levels, for over a hundred years.

IF Canadian football got even a fraction of the attention now - from media types - that hockey does, then the CFL would be much more popular - like back in the old glory days of the CFL - 60s & 70s say - when CFL football did get way more hype and attention and rivalled NHL hockey for coverage and respect in the old media (daily newspapers) of the day. Those days are long gone of course, and there are now decades worth of wannabes ignoring Canadian football and flocking to other sports as they were told the CFL wasn't major league or world class and worth any attention. But I still believe the CFL and Canadian football could see some sort of resurgence in popularity and respect - not sure I'd bet on that though. But I would be willing to bet that pro soccer in Canada (or the US) never gets anything close to the viewership numbers that the CFL has had in Canada. Part of this is because football is a Canadian sport.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

Soccer may continue to grow in popularity in Canada, but IMO, pro soccer will never become huge and approach even close to viewership numbers of hockey, OR, football - which (and a lot of people, like Simmons, don't get this) - IS a Canadian game - invented here and played here, competitively, at many levels, for over a hundred years.

IF Canadian football got even a fraction of the attention now - from media types - that hockey does, then the CFL would be much more popular - like back in the old glory days of the CFL - 60s & 70s say - when CFL football did get way more hype and attention and rivalled NHL hockey for coverage and respect in the old media (daily newspapers) of the day. Those days are long gone of course, and there are now decades worth of wannabes ignoring Canadian football and flocking to other sports as they were told the CFL wasn't major league or world class and worth any attention. But I still believe the CFL and Canadian football could see some sort of resurgence in popularity and respect - not sure I'd bet on that though. But I would be willing to bet that pro soccer in Canada (or the US) never gets anything close to the viewership numbers that the CFL has had in Canada. Part of this is because football is a Canadian sport.

There is no questioning the popularity of football in Canada and the CFL is very strong west of Ontario. There just seems to be obstacles to the CFL in Toronto. Most people I know are not soccer fans, its a niche market. NHL and NFL are the most popular in my opinion with the gen x and millennial demographics. The biggest complaints in the GTA that I hear about the CFL are:



1.Its not the NFL
2.CFL is more like a division
3.I don't care about being patriotic

This perception needs to be addressed in order to increase Argos attendance.

[argotom]

TFC and MLS has basically only a niche following in each city, with the people attending being the extent of the following.
Since the TV numbers are so abysmal, I say they have no growth potential.
Unlike the Argos who have quite a TV following in the league which has Canada wide following.
There is no comparison between the two, so why don't we just ignore it.
Simmons is a troll when it comes to the Argos and CFL, as it is all virtually negative reporting.

[AngeloV]

TFC and MLS has basically only a niche following in each city, with the people attending being the extent of the following.
Since the TV numbers are so abysmal, I say they have no growth potential.
Unlike the Argos who have quite a TV following in the league which has Canada wide following.
There is no comparison between the two, so why don't we just ignore it.
Simmons is a troll when it comes to the Argos and CFL, as it is all virtually negative reporting.

You need to read Simmons and not just go by a pre-conceived idea of what he believes. He's been pumping the tires on the Argos game day experience for the better part of 2 years now.

[Neely2005]

TFC will never have the Canada-wide viewership that the Argos have. Interest in TFC is largely within the 416 and the GTA, so the TV numbers will always be limited.

While the Argos may have limited interest in the 6ix, they do have the advantage of a Canada-wide audience by virtue of the fact they are always playing another CFL team.

Isn't the argument that a lot of people don't watch the CFL because it's Only Canadian teams?

[Neely2005]

There is no questioning the popularity of football in Canada and the CFL is very strong west of Ontario. There just seems to be obstacles to the CFL in Toronto. Most people I know are not soccer fans, its a niche market. NHL and NFL are the most popular in my opinion with the gen x and millennial demographics. The biggest complaints in the GTA that I hear about the CFL are:



1.Its not the NFL
2.CFL is more like a division
3.I don't care about being patriotic

This perception needs to be addressed in order to increase Argos attendance.

The CFL is also very popular in Hamilton and Ottawa, both of which are in Ontario.

[argotom]

You need to read Simmons and not just go by a pre-conceived idea of what he believes. He's been pumping the tires on the Argos game day experience for the better part of 2 years now.


When was the last time that Simmons wrote an entirely positive article on the Argos and or the CFL?
I can't recall, as even when there is the slight positive slant there is always a "but".
His equivalent are fellow Sportsnet kool aid drinkers and anti CFL Stephen Brunt and Damien Cox.

[RB957]

You need to read Simmons and not just go by a pre-conceived idea of what he believes. He's been pumping the tires on the Argos game day experience for the better part of 2 years now.

Not to mention that his family has season's tickets. I personally met him at one of the tailgates last year and there were twelve people with him who came to see the game.

[OV Argo]

When was the last time that Simmons wrote an entirely positive article on the Argos and or the CFL?
I can't recall, as even when there is the slight positive slant there is always a "but".
His equivalent are fellow Sportsnet kool aid drinkers and anti CFL Stephen Brunt and Damien Cox.

Simmons is a classic wannabe - and it's cool for those types to mock or put down the CFL - cause it ain't "world class" or major league; and those types abound in the media now; too bad there aren't a lot of the other end of the scale types in the media - people who are proud of the CFL - it's heritage and continued fine quality of play & competition - and willing to speak out & comment positively on it.

[Argo57]

When was the last time that Simmons wrote an entirely positive article on the Argos and or the CFL?
I can't recall, as even when there is the slight positive slant there is always a "but".
His equivalent are fellow Sportsnet kool aid drinkers and anti CFL Stephen Brunt and Damien Cox.

Simmons has been critical of the CFL but to his credit he pony’s up the cash and has season tickets.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

I can't believe the contempt for Simmons on here. I'd say he's one of the main backers of the Argos - when TFC is being talked on TSN radio, he'd be the first one to change the subject to the Argos/CFL.

[paulwoods13]

Criticizing Simmons is just done by rote around here. I don't believe those who condemn him as anti-CFL actually read him regularly, or at all. It's simpler, after all, to deride something repeatedly than to actually delve into it. (Exactly what those same people often accuse others of doing to the CFL, ironically.)

[DoubleBlue_Red]

Isn't the argument that a lot of people don't watch the CFL because it's Only Canadian teams?

My point is that if the Argos are playing Edmonton for example, the TV numbers are increased because there is viewership in the Edmonton market and across the country. This contributes to the healthy TV numbers.

[AngeloV]

When was the last time that Simmons wrote an entirely positive article on the Argos and or the CFL?
I can't recall, as even when there is the slight positive slant there is always a "but".
His equivalent are fellow Sportsnet kool aid drinkers and anti CFL Stephen Brunt and Damien Cox.

You obviously believe what you want to believe. I used to not like Simmons too, and felt he was too critical of the Argos and the league specifically. I admit I was wrong. I really enjoy listening to him on 1050, and thought he was great on the reporters (sad to see that show cancelled). When you write as many columns as he does, there are bound to be some hit and miss ones. Overall, I think he's very good.

As for Brunt and Cox, I know for a fact I have seen Brunt in the stands many times at Ti-Cats home games over the years. He is a fan. I blame the Rogers affiliation for any conceived ill will people see from him towards the league. Not sure about Cox. He has a much bigger ego than Brunt IMO and I am not a fan of his.

[Neely2005]

Criticizing Simmons is just done by rote around here. I don't believe those who condemn him as anti-CFL actually read him regularly, or at all. It's simpler, after all, to deride something repeatedly than to actually delve into it. (Exactly what those same people often accuse others of doing to the CFL, ironically.)

A significant number of posters seem to take issue with anyone being critical of the Argonauts. I've never had an issue with Simmons, he's always been fair IMO.

[Neely2005]

My point is that if the Argos are playing Edmonton for example, the TV numbers are increased because there is viewership in the Edmonton market and across the country. This contributes to the healthy TV numbers.

No different than when the Impact, Whitecaps or TFC play each other. The ratings are still much lower than the Argonauts when that happens.

[ArgoGabe22]

I'm good with Simmons as long as I don't have to hear about Ricky Ray eating a hotdog before the game.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

No different than when the Impact, Whitecaps or TFC play each other. The ratings are still much lower than the Argonauts when that happens.

No question. But, I would guess that Argos vs Als would have lower TV figures than Argos vs Sask. Although I guess other CFL markets have a vested interest in all CFL games.

[ArgoZ]

Simmons writes his fair share on the CFL, both positive and negative. To his credit, the negative issues are actually true, fans just don't want to hear them. He's a big Argonauts fan. Aside from Hogan, probably the biggest in Toronto media.

[ArgoZ]

No question. But, I would guess that Argos vs Als would have lower TV figures than Argos vs Sask. Although I guess other CFL markets have a vested interest in all CFL games.

I've always hated when people claim the Argos numbers are inflated by Western Canada. It's not true. When the Argos play any East team, they produce the same good viewership. The whole province of Saskatchewan, for example, is not tuning into a Toronto/Montreal matchup.

[OV Argo]

A significant number of posters seem to take issue with anyone being critical of the Argonauts. I've never had an issue with Simmons, he's always been fair IMO.


Hmmm; interesting - and a significant number of posters here get all bent out of shape over any criticism of anything the current Argo "braintrust" does; wether it was Barker & Scotty or now Jimmy P and Trestman = how dare any of you know nothing fans dare question inscrutable football geniuses.


Simmons is IMO a typical clown, knows zip about sports (and football specifically) "journalist" of these times; good at sucking up to whatever flavor of the day the big-time major league sports world has to offer and he's ordered to talk about; and it's cool or fashionable in Toronnawannabeland to mock the CFL, so he jumps on the bandwagon there - has for years & years now - and if some just don't get that his type are a big part of the problem the Argos & CFL face in S. Ontario - ok/whatever. Good for Simmons though - just doin' his job; and just swell that he has Argo season tix (probably courtesy of his employer) - what a huge fan.

[Joe Barnes]

The good TV numbers cited in the article show why Bell has invested in the team and should continue to do so. Though the Argo crowd is not entirely 'old and white', it leans that way, and much of it stays home. This while the more niche TFC crowd, which is younger and more accurately, kinda/sorta, reflects modern Toronto, goes to the games. So, how do the Argos get at least some of the people who watch their games from home down to the stadium? If a few more did (like 4 or 5 thousand), it'd look way better on TV, would shut the cynics up, and thereby attract more younger/casual fans because it would look like a fun place to be. A full(ish) East Side is the advertising required, regardless of the age or ethnicity of those sitting there. If the old(er) guard came out, instead of watching from home, wouldn't that do more good to spark interest from the newer fans the Argos seem to be targeting and need to survive in the long term? The younger crowd, new Canadians, and anyone who has not grown up watching CFL, needs to be shown they way and the way to help do it is to go to the games!

[ArgoRavi]

My point is that if the Argos are playing Edmonton for example, the TV numbers are increased because there is viewership in the Edmonton market and across the country. This contributes to the healthy TV numbers.

Importantly, Simmons wrote this: "In Southern Ontario alone, the Argos have 60% more viewers than TFC."

The opponent does not matter. The Argos draw far more viewers for their games in Southern Ontario alone than TFC does.

[Neely2005]

Importantly, Simmons wrote this: "In Southern Ontario alone, the Argos have 60% more viewers than TFC."

The opponent does not matter. The Argos draw far more viewers for their games in Southern Ontario alone than TFC does.

It seems like most TFC fans go to the games and there aren't many other TFC fans left to watch on TV.

[Joe Barnes]

It seems like most TFC fans go to the games and there aren't many other TFC fans left to watch on TV.

But because the stadium is full, it creates the perception that TFC has more fans, is more successful, and is the place to be for the casual fans. I have friends who are casual sports fans, and who follow the hot team. Otherwise they don't pay attention to any team in particular. Last year it was the Jays - several of them hadn't been to a game in years. But the dome was the place to be, so they followed the team and went. This year a couple of these people went to TFC games (posting pics of themselves on Facebook, for G's sake!); it's the place to be. TFC is even popping up in conversation, and when I mention the CFL, I get blank stares. But this is only a perception issue, as the numbers Simmons cites reflects. As I said, if even some of the Argo fans who watched from home came down to a game, the very act of filling the stadium creates that positive perception for the Argos, which is what the casual fan picks up on, and drives their desire to follow the team. The hardcore fan will always be there (at this point 13,000 to 15,000), but the casual fan puts a team over the top financially, by attending a game, or two, a season. Right now it seems like the vast number of hardcore members of 'Argo Nation' stay home to watch, to the detriment of the team's reputation.

Long term, the Argos need to cultivate new, younger fans, as they are doing with tailgates, their targeting of elementary aged kids, and the in-game presentation (as in hip hop and techno, over AC/DC!) but the best advertising is a full stadium. The Argos have enough fans out there to do it now. In another thread, someone posted that 40,000 attended a game just 10 years ago. Where are these people, and why don't they come back?

[Tau Ceti]

I find it curious that the success or failure of TFC and the Argos are so often treated as a zero sum affair. While there's a basic linkage between all the sports teams in the city given a finite number of entertainment dollars spent, MLS growth has very little to do with CFL decline in Toronto.

[BATKINSON001]

In another thread, someone posted that 40,000 attended a game just 10 years ago. Where are these people, and why don't they come back? Argos lost ALOT of fans with the eviction from Rogers Centre. BMO is not as easy to get to as it was and so people don't go.

[Joe Barnes]

Argos lost ALOT of fans with the eviction from Rogers Centre. BMO is not as easy to get to as it was and so people don't go.

I absolutely agree, BMO isn't easy to get to. But that doesn't stop the TFC fans. The Dome is more convenient to get to (via public transit, at least), but was a terrible venue for football, while BMO may well have the best sight lines of any stadium I've ever been to - so the trip is worth it. Plus, many of the old(er) guard will have trucked down to Exhibition Stadium, back in the day, so why not BMO now?

[BATKINSON001]

I absolutely agree, BMO isn't easy to get to. But that doesn't stop the TFC fans. The Dome is more convenient to get to (via public transit, at least), but was a terrible venue for football, while BMO may well have the best sight lines of any stadium I've ever been to - so the trip is worth it. Plus, many of the old(er) guard will have trucked down to Exhibition Stadium, back in the day, so why not BMO now?. The old guard as most fans from back then probably have moved out of the gta and won't bother making the trip back in to the city.

[Joe Barnes]

. The old guard as most fans from back then probably have moved out of the gta and won't bother making the trip back in to the city.

Yes, fair enough...it is a challenge to get into the city for games. I live in Barrie and leave at least 2 hours before game time, sometimes three, and don't always make it with much time to spare, if any. But again, all the other GTA teams face the same situation.

[Argofan_1000]

Mike Babcock discussing his Green Riders and its on Sportsnet.

This is good for us also. We needed more of this

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/photographic-memories-mike-babcock-beloved-saskatchewan-roughriders/

[1971GreyCup]

I absolutely agree, BMO isn't easy to get to. But that doesn't stop the TFC fans. The Dome is more convenient to get to (via public transit, at least), but was a terrible venue for football, while BMO may well have the best sight lines of any stadium I've ever been to - so the trip is worth it. Plus, many of the old(er) guard will have trucked down to Exhibition Stadium, back in the day, so why not BMO now?

There's no comparison to the traffic conditions to BMO Field vs. Exhibition Stadium. With exception to getting in and out of the parking lot. The city has probably tripled in size and infrastructure is exactly the same. It is noticeably much more difficult to get to games.

[ArgoZ]

Argos lost ALOT of fans with the eviction from Rogers Centre. BMO is not as easy to get to as it was and so people don't go.

I find BMO easier to get to, especially from the West. Lots of "secret" lots in Liberty village, really easy West end Medieval Times/Raptors lot. If you tailgate, you have a whole reserved lot. The train drops you off steps from the gate.

At the dome, I remember waiting for 1/2 hr on the Spadina exit, then another 1/2hr to park underground for $20 back then. Not exactly convenient. To catch a train, you would have to leave 30 minutes early to take the very long Skywalk.

[gilthethrill]

I find BMO easier to get to, especially from the West. Lots of "secret" lots in Liberty village, really easy West end Medieval Times/Raptors lot. If you tailgate, you have a whole reserved lot. The train drops you off steps from the gate.

At the dome, I remember waiting for 1/2 hr on the Spadina exit, then another 1/2hr to park underground for $20 back then. Not exactly convenient. To catch a train, you would have to leave 30 minutes early to take the very long Skywalk.

Don't miss the dome what so ever.

[1971GreyCup]

I find BMO easier to get to, especially from the West. Lots of "secret" lots in Liberty village, really easy West end Medieval Times/Raptors lot. If you tailgate, you have a whole reserved lot. The train drops you off steps from the gate.

At the dome, I remember waiting for 1/2 hr on the Spadina exit, then another 1/2hr to park underground for $20 back then. Not exactly convenient. To catch a train, you would have to leave 30 minutes early to take the very long Skywalk.

It's true, coming in from the west by car is considerably easier than the East, especially Monday to Friday. The DVP is often a problem and by Bloor you have to he entire City of Toronto heading home west in front of you. So bad that we've often driven to the west side and come down 427 to approach BMO Field from that side.

I think our solution for 2018 is to take the GO train to the game, but that means abandoning tailgating.

I'd add that the traffic problem becomes incrementally more difficult. After 10 years, you ask yourself how did it get this bad? No improvement in sight.

[doubleblue]

It's true, coming in from the west by car is considerably easier than the East, especially Monday to Friday. The DVP is often a problem and by Bloor you have to he entire City of Toronto heading home west in front of you. So bad that we've often driven to the west side and come down 427 to approach BMO Field from that side.

I think our solution for 2018 is to take the GO train to the game, but that means abandoning tailgating.

I'd add that the traffic problem becomes incrementally more difficult. After 10 years, you ask yourself how did it get this bad? No improvement in sight.

Agreed. I have always maintained the hassle of getting to the games is a big part of some fans staying homes and watching on TV.

[Joe Barnes]

Agreed. I have always maintained the hassle of getting to the games is a big part of some fans staying homes and watching on TV.

No doubt, there are challenges in getting to the games. This year, I was able to make every game - last year I missed a few - that's how it goes...but when the majority of Argo fans choose to stay home the majority of the time, as it now appears, then we have the situation as it now exists: Argos, with what the numbers tell us is a strong fan base, LOOKING like losers, who should just move to Halifax (as the Premier of Saskatchewan suggested). Meanwhile, the soccer team that has a much smaller fan base look like world beaters because the stadium is always raucous and full. This is the perception people have across the country, both CFL fans and detractors, especially in the GTA. At some point Argo Nation has to start coming to the stadium in greater numbers (not every game but more). Clearly the fan base exists, but until the current fans start to come to the stadium more often, why would a new fan come? If many of the Argos most ardent fans won't bother to actually attend a game, why would a new, young or casual fan make the effort?

[Argo57]

Argos lost ALOT of fans with the eviction from Rogers Centre. BMO is not as easy to get to as it was and so people don't go.

Don’t agree with this statement at all, BMO is actually easier to get to than Skydome.
Go train to the Ex, 2 minute walk and your there, not so difficult.

[AngeloV]

I find BMO easier to get to, especially from the West. Lots of "secret" lots in Liberty village, really easy West end Medieval Times/Raptors lot. If you tailgate, you have a whole reserved lot. The train drops you off steps from the gate.

At the dome, I remember waiting for 1/2 hr on the Spadina exit, then another 1/2hr to park underground for $20 back then. Not exactly convenient. To catch a train, you would have to leave 30 minutes early to take the very long Skywalk.

I agree. The only thing I miss about the dome was being able to walk there from work on weeknight game. I usually takes me 40 minutes or so to bet home after a game now. Used to take me 20 minutes just go walk to the parking log after a game at the dome.

[1971GreyCup]

So much in Toronto has changed since the 1970s. Games were played on the weekend. During the week, Argo fans used to head home. Get changed and head in from Etobicoke, Mississauga, North York or Scarborough. Mostly Sunday games without the rush hours to contend with. On the way to, and once away from the stadium, clear sailing. Express TTC buses were available from Yorkdale and Royal York as an alternative. Game blackouts didn't offer an alternative.

Many of the games now are played during the week now and all games are televised.

Many of the children of the 1970s Argo fans now live in the GTA from Burlington, Barrie to Newcastle. The Monday to Friday traffic GTA gridlock puts off those that still prefer driving over commuting. If you work in the city, the fans or family you'd attend the games with, might not. Those that live and work well outside the city may look at the gridlock and say no way. Get home, eat and turn on the game on TV.

[Joe Barnes]

So much in Toronto has changed since the 1970s. Games were played on the weekend. During the week, Argo fans used to head home. Get changed and head in from Etobicoke, Mississauga, North York or Scarborough. Mostly Sunday games without the rush hours to contend with. On the way to, and once away from the stadium, clear sailing. Express TTC buses were available from Yorkdale and Royal York as an alternative. Game blackouts didn't offer an alternative.

Many of the games now are played during the week now and all games are televised.

Many of the children of the 1970s Argo fans now live in the GTA from Burlington, Barrie to Newcastle. The Monday to Friday traffic GTA gridlock puts off those that still prefer driving over commuting. If you work in the city, the fans or family you'd attend the games with, might not. Those that live and work well outside the city may look at the gridlock and say no way. Get home, eat and turn on the game on TV.

Yet, Argos still draw poorly on the weekends, when the gridlock is much less. Other Toronto teams still draw their fans, fans of all ages, from across the GTA, in spite of all this. Smaller crowds for weeknight games, perhaps, for many of the same reasons you mention but still better than the Argos manage. But it's not that the Argo fans aren't out there! Why do those fan bases attend games while the Argo fan base chooses to watch from home?

[1971GreyCup]

Yet, Argos still draw poorly on the weekends, when the gridlock is much less. Other Toronto teams still draw their fans, fans of all ages, from across the GTA, in spite of all this. Smaller crowds for weeknight games, perhaps, for many of the same reasons you mention but still better than the Argos manage. But it's not that the Argo fans aren't out there! Why do those fan bases attend games while the Argo fan base chooses to watch from home?

True. But somehow Toronto seems to use Argo weekend games around Marathons and othe road closures. The explanation for the Leafs/Raptors attendance is pure corporate. How else could some afford $350 per ticket over 62 games. A lot are rotated over large corporate clients. TFC is the most comparable. Repeat fans, braving the worst traffic conditions Toronto now has to offer. I suspect Go is the preferable mode of transportation for their millennial fan base. The CFL older fanbase probably prefer the automobile mode of transportation and find that route more frustration.

[Neely2005]

Don’t agree with this statement at all, BMO is actually easier to get to than Skydome.
Go train to the Ex, 2 minute walk and your there, not so difficult.

It depends on where you're coming from and how you get to the games.

The Rogers Centre is easier if you use the TTC as you can take the Subway.
The Rogers Centre is easier to get to if you're taking the GO Train from the East.
The Rogers Centre is easier if you're coming down the 404/DVP and across the Gardner or Lakeshore from the East.

BMO Field is easier if you're coming from the West.

For us it's easier and faster to get to the Rogers Centre.

[Argo57]

It depends on where you're coming from and how you get to the games.

The Rogers Centre is easier if you use the TTC as you can take the Subway.
The Rogers Centre is easier to get to if you're taking the GO Train from the East.
The Rogers Centre is easier if you're coming down the 404/DVP and across the Gardner or Lakeshore from the East.

BMO Field is easier if you're coming from the West.

For us it's easier and faster to get to the Rogers Centre.

Fair points Neely, east or west BMO is easier to get to for sure.
I travel to the games from an hour west of Toronto with no issues, seems there is always an excuse as to why people can’t (or won’t) go to games.
The on field product has been highly entertaining to watch this year, hopefully people wake up and start going to games!

[1971GreyCup]

Fair points Neely, east or west BMO is easier to get to for sure.
I travel to the games from an hour west of Toronto with no issues, seems there is always an excuse as to why people can’t (or won’t) go to games.
The on field product has been highly entertaining to watch this year, hopefully people wake up and start going to games!

It really is a problem from the DVP north and 401 east. It's worth it to us to attend, so we'll adjust. Probably end up going the E407 to the 427 and get the advantages the BMO Field offers for those attending from the west. My son navigates with Google maps and alerts me of traffic issues on a real time basis.

[AngeloV]

It depends on where you're coming from and how you get to the games.

The Rogers Centre is easier if you use the TTC as you can take the Subway.
The Rogers Centre is easier to get to if you're taking the GO Train from the East.
The Rogers Centre is easier if you're coming down the 404/DVP and across the Gardner or Lakeshore from the East.

BMO Field is easier if you're coming from the West.

For us it's easier and faster to get to the Rogers Centre.

I come from the north of the city, and drive to every game. I only had issues once, and that was the Thursday night of Caibana weekend as there was an event at Lamport which called for reserved parking. It took me an extra 15 minutes to find a parking spot, and in the end, it was even closer to the stadium for $15, which is the most I paid for parking all season. Getting home was a breeze virtually every game, except for the CNE game, as I couldn't drive through the grounds to get on the Gardner east to the DVP, but as I mentioned, average of 40 minutes to get home from Liberty village to Bayview and 407 area.

[Scooter McCray]

I actually turned on the FC playoff game today. Great crowd but some of these soccer players should be embarrassed. Falling down as if shot when they are barely touched. I have seen 3 instances in less than one half of play. If that is part of the game than no thanks for me.

[Scooter McCray]

Okay now I'm confused. FC win game one 2-1. Red Buĺls win game 2, 1-0. Aggregate is 2-2 but FC win the series. ?????

[Neely2005]

Okay now I'm confused. FC win game one 2-1. Red Buĺls win game 2, 1-0. Aggregate is 2-2 but FC win the series. ?????

IIRC away goals are worth more and TFC won the first game which was away.

[ArgoZ]

Okay now I'm confused. FC win game one 2-1. Red Buĺls win game 2, 1-0. Aggregate is 2-2 but FC win the series. ????? Away goals count more. Same format, as long as I can remember, for Champions League Tournaments. Common in soccer.

[gilthethrill]

Okay now I'm confused. FC win game one 2-1. Red Buĺls win game 2, 1-0. Aggregate is 2-2 but FC win the series. ?????

Aggregate means what?

[Scooter McCray]

Away goals count more. Same format, as long as I can remember, for Champions League Tournaments. Common in soccer.Thanks. I was going crazy trying to wrap my head around that. Still makes no sense IMO but if that is how it's done so be it. I hope they didn't tear up the field too bad today in the rain for the Argos. We might have some cramping on the field.

[gilthethrill]

Thanks. I was going crazy trying to wrap my head around that. Still makes no sense IMO but if that is how it's done so be it. I hope they didn't tear up the field too bad today in the rain for the Argos. We might have some cramping on the field.

Duane Forde made a similar comment Friday night about the soccer team not tearing up the field for the Argo playoff game. Well said Duane!

[Joe Barnes]

I actually turned on the FC playoff game today. Great crowd but some of these soccer players should be embarrassed. Falling down as if shot when they are barely touched. I have seen 3 instances in less than one half of play. If that is part of the game than no thanks for me.

Imagine if these 'world class athlete' soccer players had to get up from some of the hits Ricky Ray has taken? They wouldn't...

[Scooter McCray]

Imagine if these 'world class athlete' soccer players had to get up from some of the hits Ricky Ray has taken? They wouldn't...Well said. Taking such hits and then immediately playing at a high level.

[AngeloV]

I actually watched the majority of the game as my NFL point spread ticket was dead and none of the games really interested me today. The flopping is so embarrassing. The jock straps..er supporters throwing streamers while the opposing team is taking a corner is also ridiculous. The home team should be penalized in some sort of way when this happens.

[Bruro]

Im an Argo season ticket holder and go to almost every game. While it is true that there are young families and even visible minorities there i have to say the biggest demographic there are white males 50-64 (i even sadly see many by themselves). At TFC home games the fans are younger and a healthy cross section from every ethnic group.

[Bruro]

While TSNs coverage of the CFL is excellent if you were go outside TSN the coverage of the Argos is next to nil, and this is part of the problem. Ive noticed this over the last few years especially. The Argos get no mention on local radio or tv except TSN. This deal has in effect marginalized the league to one media source because in a sense they own the league with their 40 million dollar a year. On sports coverage on other radio and TV the argos are barely mentioned. Listened to 640 one Saturday afternoon on the QEW on my way to a 4 oclock Saturday tilt at BMO and the sports news started with of course the BJs, leafs, raptors, US college football scores (it was a Saturday) and even English Premier league soccer scores and did not even mention the Argos game at BMO!

[Joe Barnes]

I actually watched the majority of the game as my NFL point spread ticket was dead and none of the games really interested me today. The flopping is so embarrassing. The jock straps..er supporters throwing streamers while the opposing team is taking a corner is also ridiculous. The home team should be penalized in some sort of way when this happens.

I played soccer as a kid and certainly appreciate the skill and fitness level required to play the sport, particularly at such a high level (though MLS is certainly, ahem, minor league in the world of soccer). The word embarrassing is an accurate one, though, to describe the behaviour of both the players, and often the fans. It's almost built into the culture of the sport to flip and flop as if you've just been shot. The refs have seen it all, so just play the game!! MLS has been, to their credit, good at marketing the 'experience', having all the trappings of European soccer (flags, flares, supporters groups, etc) and making the league the closest you will get to being at an actual European game. But why the idiotic boorishness, as well? If fans throw things at opponents, or today I saw stuff thrown at the ref, the home team must give up a free kick or something. As part of the opening ceremonies they had Wendel Clark on the field in a TFC jersey...Wendel F-ing Clark!! If there is any athlete who is the absolute antithesis of these soccer players it is him! Think of Wendel, then think of Giovinco...yup, embarrassing.

[Joe Barnes]

Im an Argo season ticket holder and go to almost every game. While it is true that there are young families and even visible minorities there i have to say the biggest demographic there are white males 50-64 (i even sadly see many by themselves). At TFC home games the fans are younger and a healthy cross section from every ethnic group.

Yes, I have seen that, as well. Hey, I've been that guy a couple of times! Again, touching on the theme of this thread, it is not always easy to get someone to come down to the game if my buddy or I can't make it. We sit up in the $20 seats, so don't even charge anyone to come with us, just to use the ticket. But the casual fans among us don't even think of the Argos...but anyway...as a step to changing this state of affairs, let's do are utmost to fill BMO on the 19th. If every seat is filled, no one will be sitting alone, will they? Pull Together! Let's go Argos!

[gilthethrill]

I actually watched the majority of the game as my NFL point spread ticket was dead and none of the games really interested me today. The flopping is so embarrassing. The jock straps..er supporters throwing streamers while the opposing team is taking a corner is also ridiculous. The home team should be penalized in some sort of way when this happens.

Apparently both teams engaged in a brawl in one of the stadium tunnels after the game. Lots of hair pulling and slapping I would think.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

I find it curious that the success or failure of TFC and the Argos are so often treated as a zero sum affair. While there's a basic linkage between all the sports teams in the city given a finite number of entertainment dollars spent, MLS growth has very little to do with CFL decline in Toronto.

It has become more of a zero sum affair now that the teams are sharing BMO field. Clearly 1/2 the Argo fanbase does not like BMO field and are not attending.

[paulwoods13]

Clearly 1/2 the Argo fanbase does not like BMO field and are not attending.

Huh? So the Argos have 28,000 fans, but only 14,000 of them like BMO? Any evidence for this claim?

[DoubleBlue_Red]

Huh? So the Argos have 28,000 fans, but only 14,000 of them like BMO? Any evidence for this claim?

In the Flutie era the Argos averaged about 17K at the Dome.

In the Damon Allen era they averaged about 23k.

In the Braley era the average was back to about 17k.

In the BMO field era the Argos are around 14K.

There has clearly been a decline in attendance over a short amount of time.

[Mightygoose]

In the BMO field era, they Argos also started reporting attendance based on scanned, not sold and distributed so it's tough to compare recent eras. In the final 2 years of the Braley era...when the bottom really fell off, how many actually attended. Based on what were seeing in BC these days, I would say much lower than announced.

[paulwoods13]

In the Flutie era the Argos averaged about 17K at the Dome.

In the Damon Allen era they averaged about 23k.

In the Braley era the average was back to about 17k.

In the BMO field era the Argos are around 14K.

There has clearly been a decline in attendance over a short amount of time.

None of this provides evidence that half of the Argos' fanbase does not like BMO and is not attending. Attendance has been declining since 1976, with a few upward exceptions along the way.

[BATKINSON001]

None of this provides evidence that half of the Argos' fanbase does not like BMO and is not attending. Attendance has been declining since 1976, with a few upward exceptions along the way. no it doesn't, but a large portion of the Argos fanbase chooses not to, or cannot, attend the home games.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

None of this provides evidence that half of the Argos' fanbase does not like BMO and is not attending. Attendance has been declining since 1976, with a few upward exceptions along the way.

OK 'half' is hyperbole. But long story short in 2007 the Argos were getting 20K+ in the Skydome. They are not getting that at BMO.

[Jon Gonzo]

I think some are guilty of over-simplification in this thread.

How not to run a business? Do what Braley did over his 5 year tenure as Owner.

I believe the current attendance numbers are more an echo of that inefficiency -- as opposed to any statement about the new facility.

I'll give Braley credit for the hold; it may have saved the franchise, but there has been a price to pay.

Now that we've checked off a couple of boxes in the positive column (a good football program with solid football people running it, and a more entertaining product, and good football team) we will call on Michael Copeland to channel Keith Pelley with business baby steps.

This truly is (pardon the cliche) a 5 season program of re-growth.

This is Year 1.

Can they do it? Yes, they can; but Copeland will have to be good. I know I'll demand that of him. It's important to me, us and the entire league.

[paulwoods13]

OK 'half' is hyperbole. But long story short in 2007 the Argos were getting 20K+ in the Skydome. They are not getting that at BMO.

It is fact that they are not currently drawing 20k at BMO. It is far less certain that they were regularly drawing 20k+ (at least paid) at SkyDome in 2007, since it has widely been reported that attendance figures released by that regime were not accurate. Beyond that, there is the undisputed fact that attendance peaked in 1976 and has been dropping ever since, except for a few upward blips along the way. Your statement seems to suggest that BMO is the reason fans are not attending. Which doesn't explain the 27 years in SkyDome, or the last 12 in Exhibition Stadium.

[Mightygoose]

I think some are guilty of over-simplification in this thread.

How not to run a business? Do what Braley did over his 5 year tenure as Owner.

I believe the current attendance numbers are more an echo of that inefficiency -- as opposed to any statement about the new facility.

I'll give Braley credit for the hold; it may have saved the franchise, but there has been a price to pay.

Now that we've checked off a couple of boxes in the positive column (a good football program with solid football people running it, and a more entertaining product, and good football team) we will call on Michael Copeland to channel Keith Pelley with business baby steps.

This truly is (pardon the cliche) a 5 season program of re-growth.

This is Year 1.

Can they do it? Yes, they can; but Copeland will have to be good. I know I'll demand that of him. It's important to me, us and the entire league.

This.

1 years ago is not that long ago. In 2007 the Argos averaged nearly 31K a game (sold and distributed). Yes, that was a Grey Cup hosting year which brings up the average. Still during the C&S era, they never averaged less than 25K a game. They were higher than the Jays in many of those years.

That started to slowly slip during the Braley era but were seeing things in BC very similar to what happened here too. I've always said a badly run business is going to have fewer customers than one that's well run and funded. The Grey Cup Fiasco last year is a big part of this year's decline.....still a by product of the Braley era I might add. That's a major difference between TFC and the Argos too.

[ToneDeaf]

I'm a Brit and therefore primarily a soccer fan by default. I'm also interested enough in CFL and the Argos in particular to have read this forum for some time and will attend my first game in person at the Eastern playoff final. I am genuinely looking forward to it.

Now I hope some of you will have been able to read past my opening sentence without dismissing me as a troll and be prepared to read my twopenny worth on this subject with an open mind, because often, some of you guys on this forum might well be a reason why newcomers are deterred from attending Argo games.

Firstly, sports fans are the most likely persons likely to want to want to attend an Argo game. An obvious statement yes, but also a pertinent one. My point here is that fans of other sports tempted to go and watch the Argos in the flesh will often happen upon places like this forum and read the attitudes on display to see if they might 'fit in' with the crowd. To see some of the comments levelled towards soccer is off-putting to say the least and will deter potential fans - take it from me, I nearly changed my mind to book up for the Eastern final.

Also, the younger generation will not tolerate what seems to be borderline homophobic commentary on display on this thread and will only increase the perception that Argo fans are fusty, old, white men with two feet in the past.

Another opinion that is evident here on a regular basis is that those who attend other sports are 'wannabe' Americans or otherwise and in some way not proudly Canadian enough. That is frankly bullshit - I have never met a Canadian who is not extremely proud to be so and I have never met anyone from any other country so keen to distinguish themselves from being mistaken as a citizen of another country. Just because a person enjoys another sport does not make them wannabe anything.

And therein lies another problem with regard to attracting a younger demographic; the fact that this generation sees itself as part of a global society. I know many (Torontonians) consider the CFL to be minor league or a second class product as do many of you by the looks of it, but that is and isn't because it's Canadian. Due to the 24 hour long, 24 time zones wide availability of information, people these days feel part of the wider World. Limiting a sport to within the borders of this great country seems parochial to many citizens of what is a World-class city. The kids want to play and beat New York City, Chicago and Los Angeles, not Regina, Hamilton or Winnipeg. I predict that one day taking on the largest US cities will not be enough and Torontonians will want to take on the Londons, Parises, Moscows, Tokyos and Beijings. And they want to because they want to beat them, not be them - they're proud Canadians who want to project themselves onto the global stage, not the domestic.

Maybe it might be time to retain the game but market it in a manner that places it's Canadianness as secondary and not fully in the face of those it seeks to attract? Sure that would be anathema to many of the purists on here but, as long as the World makes itself more open and available, the kids will want to look outwards instead of inwards.

I look forward to the game on the 19th - I can't wait in fact - but I will be interested to make my own, first-hand observations towards the demographics of the crowd and also it's opinions and politics if only to see just how welcoming and inclusive it is.

[paulwoods13]

The rote condemnation of soccer and/or MLS by Cdn football fans, and Cdn football by MLS and/or soccer fans, is extremely unbecoming to both groups. It largely disappeared from this forum some time ago, but every now and then it rears its ugly head, sadly. I've said before and I'll say again, TFC is here to stay and Argo fans would do well to live and let live. And of course the same goes for TFC fans (a few of whom can't seem to avoid indulging in wishful "Argos-will-die" posts on social media).

[ToneDeaf]

The rote condemnation of soccer and/or MLS by Cdn football fans, and Cdn football by MLS and/or soccer fans, is extremely unbecoming to both groups. It largely disappeared from this forum some time ago, but every now and then it rears its ugly head, sadly. I've said before and I'll say again, TFC is here to stay and Argo fans would do well to live and let live. And of course the same goes for TFC fans (a few of whom can't seem to avoid indulging in wishful "Argos-will-die" posts on social media).

I agree wholeheartedly that both fans groups ought to be more tolerant of the other. I watch TFC regularly at BMO and deeply dislike the moronic 'No Argos at BMO' chant. It is, however rooted mainly in one particular fan group who by no means represent the opinions of the larger fan base.

I might add that I also hate the ridiculous over reactions to fouls in soccer, as do the vast majority of soccer fans. it is a scourge on what is otherwise the 'beautiful game'.

I do hope that TFC and Argo fans can live and let live as you say - there are benefits that each can gain from the other and also become fans of the other, but it takes effort from both sides - there have been notorious Argo trolls targeting TFC on social media, too.

[paulwoods13]

there have been notorious Argo trolls targeting TFC on social media, too.

Unfortunately, this is 100% true.

[Shatto]

Like ToneDeaf, I was born in the UK and have attended top tier soccer games there. I have a fondness, appreciation and understanding of the game but an undying love for the CFL and the Argos, so yes there is a bias to the Canadian game. Hopefully Tone has a great time on Nov 19 and returns for regular season games next year.

Though agreeing with many of the points made, I must, respectfully, take exception to the "borderline homophobic" comment and the implication this could be part of an "old white men" syndrome. Frankly, I find that generalization, both insulting and unbecoming of someone who obviously writes so open mindedly and intelligently. In the past couple of years, a number of the "younger generation" TFC fans, have been guilty of some atrocious behaviour, including ugly sexist comments made to a young female reporter but I would never suggest that this is indicative of the general behaviour of TFC fans. I have also not anti TFC taunts by Argo fans at the BMO but have heard anti Argo taunts at TFC games.

Though born a Brit, I'm now a Canadian through and through (even though my kids still think have an English accent). As a Canadian, I can appreciate the history of the CFL and its contributions to Canadian culture. Only in Canada would a fan bypass the PM and speak to an ex CFL great (Jackson). One of things often overlooked, is how competitive the CFL an its players are when compared to gold level NFL. When I try to convince my friends, including ex-Brits to follow TFC and perhaps even attend a game, they mock MLS league not as second rate but as 5th or 6th rate. They will dutifully watch Man U on telly but never watch a TFC game. Until that attitude changes, TFC will continue to have abysmal TV ratings. Hopefully, that attitude will change and we can look forward to both great crowds for Argos games at BMO and good TV ratings for TFC and MLS.

I look forward to the time when TFC fans embrace having the Argos at BMO and Argo fans rejoice in the successes of TFC. Well, I can always hope.

ToneDeaf, thank you for your comments and analysis of the situation involving CFL and MLS. If I have disagreed with you on some points, please don't see that as a criticism of your post, on the whole. It was brave of you to come on this site and express your thoughts in a cogent and honest manner. Do attend the tailgating on the 19th, if you are able. If you make yourself know, I'm sure a number of us would be very happy to treat you to a beer. Once again, enjoy the game and hopefully an Argo win.

[R.J]

So........... previously the dome was seen as a big problem, because A. it was too big, and B. that it was a pain in the butt to drive to due to it being downtown. Now BMO which is in the old Ex. stadium grounds (which a lot of people wanted to go back to) is a problem because what was previously believed to be the "better" location no longer is and is a pain in the butt to get to ?

Seems to me Argo/CFL fans are always looking to find excuses for not attending. The dome didn't keep Jays fans, away when they were winning, the ACC seems to fill up nicely for the Leafs and Raps, and BMO Field to fill up relatively nicely for TFC.

[AngeloV]

So........... previously the dome was seen as a big problem, because A. it was too big, and B. that it was a pain in the butt to drive to due to it being downtown. Now BMO which is in the old Ex. stadium grounds (which a lot of people wanted to go back to) is a problem because what was previously believed to be the "better" location no longer is and is a pain in the butt to get to ?

Seems to me Argo/CFL fans are always looking to find excuses for not attending. The dome didn't keep Jays fans, away when they were winning, the ACC seems to fill up nicely for the Leafs and Raps, and BMO Field to fill up relatively nicely for TFC.

You can't just label Argo/CFL fans based on what you read here. Nothing that is speculated by a few on here is exactly 100% correct. As I mentioned, I come from north of the city, and find at least getting out of BMO to be a breeze compared to the dome. Getting in is about the same. Drive about 10-15 minutes longer, but the shorter walk to the stadium more than makes up for that. Plenty of cheap municipal parking lots around BMO also makes it more desirable for me.

[R.J]

You can't just label Argo/CFL fans based on what you read here. Nothing that is speculated by a few on here is exactly 100% correct. As I mentioned, I come from north of the city, and find at least getting out of BMO to be a breeze compared to the dome. Getting in is about the same. Drive about 10-15 minutes longer, but the shorter walk to the stadium more than makes up for that. Plenty of cheap municipal parking lots around BMO also makes it more desirable for me.
Not disagreeing, I just find it disappointing that "diehards" are still finding things to complain about when it comes to a stadium/location. I take the GO to the majority of games I attend, and I found it easy to go to the games at the dome and BMO. The times that I do drive to the games, I still don't see any issue.

The Argos have attendance issues are due to the perception of the CFL, just like the Rock (NLL), and Marlies (AHL). The Leafs, Raps, Jays and TFC all seem to sell fine (Jays will see a decline soon I think), and people seem to find ways to attend those games for the teams they enjoy. I don't understand why there's always excuses/complaints when it comes to the CFL (Ottawa and Saskatchewan being the exceptions right now).

[AngeloV]

Not disagreeing, I just find it disappointing that "diehards" are still finding things to complain about when it comes to a stadium/location. I take the GO to the majority of games I attend, and I found it easy to go to the games at the dome and BMO. The times that I do drive to the games, I still don't see any issue.

The Argos have attendance issues are due to the perception of the CFL, just like the Rock (NLL), and Marlies (AHL). The Leafs, Raps, Jays and TFC all seem to sell fine (Jays will see a decline soon I think), and people seem to find ways to attend those games for the teams they enjoy. I don't understand why there's always excuses/complaints when it comes to the CFL (Ottawa and Saskatchewan being the exceptions right now).

I guess I'm just used to all the complaining. Starting with the cutting of the "big 3", to going into the draft with no GM and coach in place, to the lack of season ticket perks, it goes on and on, often bringing out the worst of me on here. I have no problem being patient with a build of the fan base. It's something I have no control of, so why complain? Won't stop me from ever buying season tickets.

[Neely2005]

This.

1 years ago is not that long ago. In 2007 the Argos averaged nearly 31K a game (sold and distributed). Yes, that was a Grey Cup hosting year which brings up the average. Still during the C&S era, they never averaged less than 25K a game. They were higher than the Jays in many of those years.

That started to slowly slip during the Braley era but were seeing things in BC very similar to what happened here too. I've always said a badly run business is going to have fewer customers than one that's well run and funded. The Grey Cup Fiasco last year is a big part of this year's decline.....still a by product of the Braley era I might add. That's a major difference between TFC and the Argos too.

C&S were also papering the house apparently.

[Neely2005]

Also, the younger generation will not tolerate what seems to be borderline homophobic commentary on display on this thread and will only increase the perception that Argo fans are fusty, old, white men with two feet in the past.


I must have missed the borderline homophobic comments?

[Tau Ceti]

I don't think attendance has actually declined since the last few years of Braley, or at least not by much. I think they've simply stopped tacking 2,000 no shows onto the final figure. Michael Hook claims that paid attendance is actually up and I'm inclined to believe it. The flex tickets were a mistake -- not revoking them but offering them in the first place. You give things away and people interpret them as valueless. The current ownership has years worth of this problem to undo.

On another note, I agree firmly with R.J. The complaints on this forum about location are incredibly exasperating.

[Joe Barnes]

I don't think attendance has actually declined since the last few years of Braley, or at least not by much. I think they've simply stopped tacking 2,000 no shows onto the final figure. Michael Hook claims that paid attendance is actually up and I'm inclined to believe it. The flex tickets were a mistake -- not revoking them but offering them in the first place. You give things away and people interpret them as valueless. The current ownership has years worth of this problem to undo.

On another note, I agree firmly with R.J. The complaints on this forum about location are incredibly exasperating.

Agreed. As I suggested in an earlier post, as well, the fact is other fan bases come into the city, be it the Dome or BMO, and deal with all the same issues - parking, traffic, etc - yet the Argo base stays home is large numbers. Again, why is this?

[Joe Barnes]

I agree wholeheartedly that both fans groups ought to be more tolerant of the other. I watch TFC regularly at BMO and deeply dislike the moronic 'No Argos at BMO' chant. It is, however rooted mainly in one particular fan group who by no means represent the opinions of the larger fan base.

I might add that I also hate the ridiculous over reactions to fouls in soccer, as do the vast majority of soccer fans. it is a scourge on what is otherwise the 'beautiful game'.

I do hope that TFC and Argo fans can live and let live as you say - there are benefits that each can gain from the other and also become fans of the other, but it takes effort from both sides - there have been notorious Argo trolls targeting TFC on social media, too.

As someone who did post about TFC in an unfavourable manner in the last day, or so, I felt I needed to reply.

First of all, I did not intend to offend, but the game Sunday was an example of what is wrong with the sport of soccer: the constant feigning of injury, the ridiculous arguments, fans littering the field with debris...As i noted, I played soccer when I was younger and quite enjoy the sport, so I am not coming at this from an anti-soccer/TFC bias. I am glad we are on the same page as far as the over reaction to fouls go. Again, I applaud MLS for their marketing savvy. They've made soccer a success in North America, even if it is not highly ranked among the rest of the world's leagues. The CFL could learn from this type of marketing, although I consider it's product much better.

I used to be a follower of the Toronto Blizzard, in the old NASL, (better soccer than MLS, IMO) and I don't recall any animosity from the Argos (or Jays), or their fans, when the soccer team began play in Exhibition Stadium. The same can't be said for some (not all), in the TFC camp. I've never heard any Argo fan ever complain about TFC except as a sort of defensive reaction to the derision that has come the Argos way from some of the TFC supporters groups since the move into BMO. I think we should all be supportive of any team that represents our city/region. To that end, I also compared Giovinco unfavourably to Wendel Clark. Well, to me Giovinco acts like a spoiled brat while Wendel was the humble, hard working, heart and soul of the Leafs for almost 15 years. I know who I choose to represent me.

You clearly have an open mind to the Argos, for that I applaud you, and I hope you have a great time on the 19th.

[Shatto]

It is undoubtedly true, that when things are given away free, people will often see the items, if not valueless, then definitely of reduced value.

However the flex tickets were not given away free but rather given as a reward for those who had purchased season tickets. Argo season ticket holders are hardly overwhelmed, with rewards or benefits for putting out money, way in advance of the season. In my case the flex tickets were utilized to bring friends and family members to the game and hopefully motivating some of them to buy Argo tickets in the future.

This may simply be a case of individuals interpreting something in different ways and neither view is necessarily wrong. Whereas one may see the flex tickets as a valuable perk for being a STH, even a useful marketing tool to encourage future fans, others will see it as a freeby that devalues the value of the tickets they have purchased and discourage others from buying tickets at the regular price.

In our case the use of flex tickets did create interest in the team and motivated individuals to want to come to future games--so it worked but I respect if others have a different view. Whatever your take on this issue, I still hold that STH's are not receiving sufficient benefits from being a STH.

[Tau Ceti]

...However the flex tickets were not given away free but rather given as a reward for those who had purchased season tickets. Argo season ticket holders are hardly overwhelmed, with rewards or benefits for putting out money, way in advance of the season. In my case the flex tickets were utilized to bring friends and family members to the game and hopefully motivating some of them to buy Argo tickets in the future...

I don't mean to suggest the flex tickets were unappreciated or that having them taken away is not a fair frustration. (Having only been a STH for two seasons perhaps I haven't been exposed to as much misery and am being more forgiving.)

But I still don't like the strategy. For groups that have little purchasing power to begin with (eg. kids) or are deserving of special recognition (veterans, alumni, etc.) by all means have targeted freebies. (The absence of a smart children's strategy is really puzzling in year 3 at BMO.) Or, if you are making it open to all, have a flex night that is specific and measurable. Handing an open-ended free ticket to the salaried workmate at the next cubicle, or even my spouse or sibling, is another story however. It may be "hopefully motivating" but it will just as likely reinforce the notion that the Argos are a cheap night out. And at the end of the day the team is going to have little means to measure the efficacy.

There are smart ways to provide real monetary value adds. Imagine if, for example, for every $2 or $3 extra dollars in revenue you brought in during the regular season the team discounted next year's ST by $1. Then I'd want to SELL to the workmate in the next cubicle with a genuine incentive in mind. I'm sure we could come up with numerous similar strategies that would reward STHs without papering the stadium.

[Neely2005]

Agreed. As I suggested in an earlier post, as well, the fact is other fan bases come into the city, be it the Dome or BMO, and deal with all the same issues - parking, traffic, etc - yet the Argo base stays home is large numbers. Again, why is this?

First off we haven't missed a game in years but here's my theory:

There are less Argonauts fans in the GTA than Leafs, Raptors and Blue Jays fans.

A large percentage of our fans are located suburban and rural where the other teams have more urban located fans.

Our fans prefer driving to transit and it's hard to tailgate properly without a car.

[RB957]

It is undoubtedly true, that when things are given away free, people will often see the items, if not valueless, then definitely of reduced value.

However the flex tickets were not given away free but rather given as a reward for those who had purchased season tickets. Argo season ticket holders are hardly overwhelmed, with rewards or benefits for putting out money, way in advance of the season. In my case the flex tickets were utilized to bring friends and family members to the game and hopefully motivating some of them to buy Argo tickets in the future.

This may simply be a case of individuals interpreting something in different ways and neither view is necessarily wrong. Whereas one may see the flex tickets as a valuable perk for being a STH, even a useful marketing tool to encourage future fans, others will see it as a freeby that devalues the value of the tickets they have purchased and discourage others from buying tickets at the regular price.

In our case the use of flex tickets did create interest in the team and motivated individuals to want to come to future games--so it worked but I respect if others have a different view. Whatever your take on this issue, I still hold that STH's are not receiving sufficient benefits from being a STH.

Agree 100%. One of the friends I brought down to a game with my flex tickets has now become a STH.

[RB957]

On another note, I agree firmly with R.J. The complaints on this forum about location are incredibly exasperating.

I agree that complaints about location are exasperating, but from my own experience I know of three STH's who sat in the same section as me at Rogers Centre who were adamant that they would not attend games at BMO. As dismal as the atmosphere there was at times, they preferred it because they were guaranteed a climate controlled environment. This makes no sense to me, as football should be played outdoors and IMO, the atmosphere and sightlines at BMO are incredible. So far, we have been very blessed with excellent weather for all of our games. Without a large committed fan base, I worry what the stands would look like on a miserable day where it is raining or snowing.

[Neely2005]

I don't mean to suggest the flex tickets were unappreciated or that having them taken away is not a fair frustration. (Having only been a STH for two seasons perhaps I haven't been exposed to as much misery and am being more forgiving.)

But I still don't like the strategy. For groups that have little purchasing power to begin with (eg. kids) or are deserving of special recognition (veterans, alumni, etc.) by all means have targeted freebies. (The absence of a smart children's strategy is really puzzling in year 3 at BMO.) Or, if you are making it open to all, have a flex night that is specific and measurable. Handing an open-ended free ticket to the salaried workmate at the next cubicle, or even my spouse or sibling, is another story however. It may be "hopefully motivating" but it will just as likely reinforce the notion that the Argos are a cheap night out. And at the end of the day the team is going to have little means to measure the efficacy.

There are smart ways to provide real monetary value adds. Imagine if, for example, for every $2 or $3 extra dollars in revenue you brought in during the regular season the team discounted next year's ST by $1. Then I'd want to SELL to the workmate in the next cubicle with a genuine incentive in mind. I'm sure we could come up with numerous similar strategies that would reward STHs without papering the stadium.

Argonauts Kids Club:

https://www.argonauts.ca/kidsclub/

[Neely2005]

I agree that complaints about location are exasperating, but from my own experience I know of three STH's who sat in the same section as me at Rogers Centre who were adamant that they would not attend games at BMO. As dismal as the atmosphere there was at times, they preferred it because they were guaranteed a climate controlled environment. This makes no sense to me, as football should be played outdoors and IMO, the atmosphere and sightlines at BMO are incredible. So far, we have been very blessed with excellent weather for all of our games. Without a large committed fan base, I worry what the stands would look like on a miserable day where it is raining or snowing.

As I've mentioned before my wife feels the same way. She didn't come to the Grey Cup at BMO Field and has already told me that she may not come to this year's Eastern Final if it's to cold out. She's attended every other Argonauts game at BMO Field.

Also the quality of the seats themselves in the 200's @ BMO Field are pretty lackluster.

[Tau Ceti]

Argonauts Kids Club:

https://www.argonauts.ca/kidsclub/

That seems like a decent value for a fun pack. But there's no kids pricing or night, is there? I thought I read on here they were still having issues confirming who's a kid...

[ToneDeaf]

Like ToneDeaf, I was born in the UK and have attended top tier soccer games there. I have a fondness, appreciation and understanding of the game but an undying love for the CFL and the Argos, so yes there is a bias to the Canadian game. Hopefully Tone has a great time on Nov 19 and returns for regular season games next year.

Though agreeing with many of the points made, I must, respectfully, take exception to the "borderline homophobic" comment and the implication this could be part of an "old white men" syndrome. Frankly, I find that generalization, both insulting and unbecoming of someone who obviously writes so open mindedly and intelligently. In the past couple of years, a number of the "younger generation" TFC fans, have been guilty of some atrocious behaviour, including ugly sexist comments made to a young female reporter but I would never suggest that this is indicative of the general behaviour of TFC fans. I have also not anti TFC taunts by Argo fans at the BMO but have heard anti Argo taunts at TFC games.

Though born a Brit, I'm now a Canadian through and through (even though my kids still think have an English accent). As a Canadian, I can appreciate the history of the CFL and its contributions to Canadian culture. Only in Canada would a fan bypass the PM and speak to an ex CFL great (Jackson). One of things often overlooked, is how competitive the CFL an its players are when compared to gold level NFL. When I try to convince my friends, including ex-Brits to follow TFC and perhaps even attend a game, they mock MLS league not as second rate but as 5th or 6th rate. They will dutifully watch Man U on telly but never watch a TFC game. Until that attitude changes, TFC will continue to have abysmal TV ratings. Hopefully, that attitude will change and we can look forward to both great crowds for Argos games at BMO and good TV ratings for TFC and MLS.

I look forward to the time when TFC fans embrace having the Argos at BMO and Argo fans rejoice in the successes of TFC. Well, I can always hope.

ToneDeaf, thank you for your comments and analysis of the situation involving CFL and MLS. If I have disagreed with you on some points, please don't see that as a criticism of your post, on the whole. It was brave of you to come on this site and express your thoughts in a cogent and honest manner. Do attend the tailgating on the 19th, if you are able. If you make yourself know, I'm sure a number of us would be very happy to treat you to a beer. Once again, enjoy the game and hopefully an Argo win.

Shatto, thanks for your reply and others who have responded to my post. I apologize that it has taken a while to reply but life and stuff tends to get in the way.

First off, please let me address the concerns you and others have taken to my 'borderline homophobic commentary' phrase. I do not intend to insult anyone here - I do not have an agenda, hidden or otherwise, I just wanted to make a point.

I made that comment in reference to posts made within this thread, suggesting that soccer players would be "slapping and hair pulling" each other during a well-documented fracas. To my mind, those words imply a degree of effeminacy which in turn could lead to accusations of 'borderline homophobic commentary'. Especially in this day and age. Especially in this liberal city.

It's not clearly objectionable and nor is it overt, hence my use of the term 'borderline' but there is definitely a hint of 'something' in there as there has been in the past when referencing TFC players ('pansy' a term i remember being used). I know many will refuse to accept this and they may well be right - I am not judge and jury here - but you would in turn, be wrong to dismiss that many would certainly take exception to such verbal imagery. As such, I stand by my comment - it is a push to reconcile my comment with the ones it was intended to criticize, I gather that - but perception is key.

To add, I am only too aware of the 'F her right in the P' incident and consider it a stain on the character of TFC both as a club and a fanbase. I offer no defence of such behaviour or of other instances where TFC fans have not exactly showered themselves in glory.

But in danger of being sidetracked, I also wanted to state that I am going to the Eastern Conference Final as an Argos fan, not a TFC rubbernecker. I said I have enough interest in the Argos and the CFL to have watched games on TV and now I wish to see it in the flesh. I will also be cheering the boys on with gusto and I hope for a great game and a big win - and if I enjoy it, I'll be returning to BMO in double blue as well as in red for the foreseeable future.

Thanks Shatto, for your honest and eloquent reply, it was a pleasure to read and as I suspect there will still be points that we do not agree on, I have enjoyed the exchange and welcome it. I agree completely that there needs to be a coming together of TFC and Argos fans as both could be of benefit to the other. I just think in this instance, that Argo fans have a great opportunity to take the moral high ground here by talking about TFC in more complimentary terms, even if that is not reciprocated by many TFC fans.

Remember guys, this is a public forum read by many more eyes than those who choose to participate actively (as i write there are 5 active members and 19 guests viewing the forum). You the poster's comments can have an impact on whether the lurkers decide to attend an Argos home game or not. And whatever your thoughts about TFC or soccer in general, it has well over 25000 people who are proven willing to pony up the dollar and haul their asses out to BMO field - it would be foolish to alienate them.

[R.J]

And whatever your thoughts about TFC or soccer in general, it has well over 25000 people who are proven willing to pony up the dollar and haul their asses out to BMO field - it would be foolish to alienate them.
What's this supposed to mean ?

[Neely2005]

http://www.bttoronto.ca/videos/argos-to-play-first-playoff-game-at-bmo-field-on-sunday/

Even promoting on Breakfast Television which airs on Citytv, a station owned by Rogers. Gotta give some credit here.

Except the game isn't this Sunday.
:-)

[rdavies]

As a Canadian, I can appreciate the history of the CFL and its contributions to Canadian culture. Only in Canada would a fan bypass the PM and speak to an ex CFL great (Jackson).Totally agreed with all of your post and thought ToneDeaf was off the mark on many points. Glad you brought up that classic clip. I can't watch that enough. Many people spun that as a shot at Harper (Cohon was there as well) but it was really just someone paying homage to a God.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hXgI0zKdMk

[Joe Barnes]

Today, the Argos finally got what TFC has, that is, a (nearly) full BMO Field. An entertaining game in front of a terrific crowd. It was also cold - but not too cold. Could not have asked for more!

[timlb01]

Today, the Argos finally got what TFC has, that is, a (nearly) full BMO Field. An entertaining game in front of a terrific crowd. It was also cold - but not too cold. Could not have asked for more!

It was a good game and great atmosphere. Just need to carry the momentum into next season. Hopefully in the near future we will be disappointed by this size of crowd and be asking here why the hell did we not sell out for the 100th time in a row. Everyone on here did a great job hustling tickets and getting people out. It was nice how we all came together!

[294life]

It was nice to see 25K at BMO for an argos game especially after I saw that 'NO ARGOS AT BMO FIELD' banner hanging on top of a crossbridge above don valley parkway on my way to the game. felt like a hate message as a cfl fan.

good luck at the game. i'll be at the shipyard Saturday and the flutie bros band gig at the VIP tailgate sunday

[Joe Barnes]

It was nice to see 25K at BMO for an argos game especially after I saw that 'NO ARGOS AT BMO FIELD' banner hanging on top of a crossbridge above don valley parkway on my way to the game. felt like a hate message as a cfl fan.

I'd say the people who hung that banner either a) have way too much time on their hands, b) are the type who will try and ruin other peoples fun (cowardly, anonymous bullies, in other words - I'd have more respect for them if they'd at least stood with the banner, but alas, no) or c) just need to grow up. Probably a combination of all three. Certainly not a reflection of all TFC fans, I'm sure, and certainly not going to ruin my memories of what was a truly fantastic day for Argo fans.

[Brian45]

These fans are the "inebriatti" (sp?). They sitting down in front of section 115. I have TFC tickets in 114. These guys are fools. They've been reprimanded by the team in the past and have held protest. They are the ones who lead the anti-Argo movement. They are ignorant to their own fans too. Best to ignore them but I've considered wearing my Argos jersey to TFC games a few times haha

[ToneDeaf]

These fans are the "inebriatti" (sp?). They sitting down in front of section 115. I have TFC tickets in 114. These guys are fools. They've been reprimanded by the team in the past and have held protest. They are the ones who lead the anti-Argo movement. They are ignorant to their own fans too. Best to ignore them but I've considered wearing my Argos jersey to TFC games a few times haha

Absolutely right to condemn and then ignore them. They are self-serving idiots who way over value their own importance to TFC.

That banner in no way represents all or even few TFC fans. Its that of the Inebriatti and the Inebriatti only.

[Joe Barnes]

Absolutely right to condemn and then ignore them. They are self-serving idiots who way over value their own importance to TFC.

That banner in no way represents all or even few TFC fans. Its that of the Inebriatti and the Inebriatti only.

Nice to hear that, as I suspected, these are the actions of a few. On a positive note, what was your take away from your first Argo game?

[ArgoZ]

Absolutely right to condemn and then ignore them. They are self-serving idiots who way over value their own importance to TFC.

That banner in no way represents all or even few TFC fans. Its that of the Inebriatti and the Inebriatti only.

Yes, most intelligent TFC fans disaprove. They DO however, influence the casual attendee and even media (there's been positive articles remarking how cool they are, or their name at least). I have stopped attending TFC games. If they are such a-holes and are allowed to continue to demonstrate so (see Montreal BJ sign), then MLSE or even better, the MAJORITY of TFC fans should force MLSE to end their exsistence at games. I will not return until so, and I encourage others the same until something is done.

[Shatto]

The obnoxious sign was undoubtedly place there by a TFC fan group called the Inebriatti. It's a group with a short but interesting history:
.The Sun reported, security cameras showed they were involved in the display of a disgraceful banner of a woman performing oral sex on a man.
.They were responsible for creating the "No Argos@BMO" protest movement.
.They were banned from attending a game in Montreal in 2016, because of the apparent damage they caused at a previous game.
.There was a power struggle between Inebriatti and TFC front office following disciplinary action imposed by the TFC front office
.The group obstinately refuses to accept that the city owned BMO stadium should ever have the Argos as tenants.
.But most importantly, they don't represent the majority of the TFC fans

The last point is most significant. Now that it has been demonstrated that the field (pitch) is not being compromised by the presence of the Argos, most TFC fans appear to be graciously accepting the stadium now legitimately hosts both TFC and the Argos. Hopefully the influence of this adolescent like group, will wane over time. There is no reason the two fan groups can't accept and support each other.

[BATKINSON001]

The obnoxious sign was undoubtedly place there by a TFC fan group called the Inebriatti. It's a group with a short but interesting history:
.The Sun reported, security cameras showed they were involved in the display of a disgraceful banner of a woman performing oral sex on a man.
.They were responsible for creating the "No Argos@BMO" protest movement.
.They were banned from attending a game in Montreal in 2016, because of the apparent damage they caused at a previous game.
.There was a power struggle between Inebriatti and TFC front office following disciplinary action imposed by the TFC front office
.The group obstinately refuses to accept that the city owned BMO stadium should ever have the Argos as tenants.
.But most importantly, they don't represent the majority of the TFC fans

The last point is most significant. Now that it has been demonstrated that the field (pitch) is not being compromised by the presence of the Argos, most TFC fans appear to be graciously accepting the stadium now legitimately hosts both TFC and the Argos. Hopefully the influence of this adolescent like group, will wane over time. There is no reason the two fan groups can't accept and support each other.I will never support inebriatti. General Argos accepting tfc fanbase, yes but not them.

[Neely2005]

The obnoxious sign was undoubtedly place there by a TFC fan group called the Inebriatti. It's a group with a short but interesting history:
.The Sun reported, security cameras showed they were involved in the display of a disgraceful banner of a woman performing oral sex on a man.
.They were responsible for creating the "No Argos@BMO" protest movement.
.They were banned from attending a game in Montreal in 2016, because of the apparent damage they caused at a previous game.
.There was a power struggle between Inebriatti and TFC front office following disciplinary action imposed by the TFC front office
.The group obstinately refuses to accept that the city owned BMO stadium should ever have the Argos as tenants.
.But most importantly, they don't represent the majority of the TFC fans

The last point is most significant. Now that it has been demonstrated that the field (pitch) is not being compromised by the presence of the Argos, most TFC fans appear to be graciously accepting the stadium now legitimately hosts both TFC and the Argos. Hopefully the influence of this adolescent like group, will wane over time. There is no reason the two fan groups can't accept and support each other.

It makes me wonder if former Toronto mayor David Miller is a founding member.
:-)

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/former-toronto-mayor-giving-away-his-tfc-season-tickets/article14260250/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&service=mobile

[AngeloV]

I get that this group may be the worst of the bunch, but are they the only ones that post on Red Patch boys forum? I went on to have a look when the Argos move to BMO was announced, and would say at least 90% of their posters had the same thoughts towards the Argos. Have not checked it out in over a year, so just wondering.

[gilthethrill]

I get that this group may be the worst of the bunch, but are they the only ones that post on Red Patch boys forum? I went on to have a look when the Argos move to BMO was announced, and would say at least 90% of their posters had the same thoughts towards the Argos. Have not checked it out in over a year, so just wondering.

No doubt that many TFC fans who are not members of this "Innebratti" (sp), have no problem with this banner being displayed.

[rdavies]

I get that this group may be the worst of the bunch, but are they the only ones that post on Red Patch boys forum? I went on to have a look when the Argos move to BMO was announced, and would say at least 90% of their posters had the same thoughts towards the Argos. Have not checked it out in over a year, so just wondering.I haven't been there in a while, but even the RPB are kinda dickheads, but have softened their stance re ground sharing. When it was proven (over time and experience) that the groundsharing would not be harmful to the precious turf and also proven that soccer is more harmful to turf than football those who had the ability to think mellowed out.

[ArgoZ]

I get that this group may be the worst of the bunch, but are they the only ones that post on Red Patch boys forum? I went on to have a look when the Argos move to BMO was announced, and would say at least 90% of their posters had the same thoughts towards the Argos. Have not checked it out in over a year, so just wondering.

Red Patch Boys are a separate supporter group that has its own forum. Some members of Inebriatti are former members and both groups have gone head to head on a few issues. Despite what people claim, a lot of TFC supporter groups share the same mindset, Inebriatti just takes it to extreme.

[AngeloV]

Red Patch Boys are a separate supporter group that has its own forum. Some members of Inebriatti are former members and both groups have gone head to head on a few issues. Despite what people claim, a lot of TFC supporter groups share the same mindset, Inebriatti just takes it to extreme.

Thanks. Good explanation.

[Argo57]

Red Patch Boys are a separate supporter group that has its own forum. Some members of Inebriatti are former members and both groups have gone head to head on a few issues. Despite what people claim, a lot of TFC supporter groups share the same mindset, Inebriatti just takes it to extreme.

They all sound scary and should be avoided at all cost!😟

[R.J]

Ruffles Crunch Time: A change in the Argos Identity
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/ruffles-crunch-time-a-change-in-the-argos-identity~1268143


Here's hoping that the Eastern Final win leads to the rebuild and not just another blip.

[BATKINSON001]

Ruffles Crunch Time: A change in the Argos Identity
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/ruffles-crunch-time-a-change-in-the-argos-identity~1268143


Here's hoping that the Eastern Final win leads to the rebuild and not just another blip.hopefully it will. The Argos need to do the level of marketing for all their games that they did for the final.

[ArgoZ]

They all sound scary and should be avoided at all cost!😟
As a former poster used to point out, they are hardly scary. Their immature behaviour combined with the way they have treated the Argos is more off putting than anything. I just can't be a part or support any of it anymore.

[ToneDeaf]

For what it’s worth - I know I haven’t made too many new friends in here - I thoroughly enjoyed my first Argo game, the excitement and the atmosphere. I even got chatting with a few very decent people, who knows, maybe one of you.

In accordance with the thread, the Argos can claim a TFC fan as one of their own, too.

[smokeslet'sgo]

For what it’s worth - I know I haven’t made too many new friends in here - I thoroughly enjoyed my first Argo game, the excitement and the atmosphere. I even got chatting with a few very decent people, who knows, maybe one of you.

In accordance with the thread, the Argos can claim a TFC fan as one of their own, too.

If you're a fan of the Argos you're a friend to us. (also you must hate the Ticats)

[Joe Barnes]

For what it’s worth - I know I haven’t made too many new friends in here - I thoroughly enjoyed my first Argo game, the excitement and the atmosphere. I even got chatting with a few very decent people, who knows, maybe one of you.

In accordance with the thread, the Argos can claim a TFC fan as one of their own, too.

Good to hear! Hopefully Argos win this week and TFC, keeps it going, as well. As someone else pointed out, two BMO Field champions in 2017 has a pretty good ring to it...

[gilthethrill]

For what it’s worth - I know I haven’t made too many new friends in here - I thoroughly enjoyed my first Argo game, the excitement and the atmosphere. I even got chatting with a few very decent people, who knows, maybe one of you.

In accordance with the thread, the Argos can claim a TFC fan as one of their own, too.

Well, you've stuck around this long...you can't be too bad!