BMO Field of Dreams! Good luck to the Argos stadium-mates Toronto FC

[Argobouncer]

Good luck to Toronto FC in the MLS Cup today - Make BMO Field the home of Champions!

Wish there was more support going both ways from the teams & their fans playing in the same venue - support each other like in every other city in North America.

The ground share has proven to be a huge success for both teams - & it seems now like it may well save the Argos long term in being a great atmosphere to watch a game at (which more & more fans are finding out).

[smokeslet'sgo]

Ironic how a while back Dean Blundell asked listeners if watching an Argo or TFC game was worse (I forget the exact context of his question). Now both teams are champions while he was ridden out of town on a rail. I normally don't enjoy peoples' failures but that one is an exception

[Tau Ceti]

Lucked into a last minute ticket. Kudos on a very convincing win.

Great times at BMO these last two years. The double championship must feel especially nice for Larry Tanenbaum. Happy for him.

[rdavies]

https://i.imgur.com/7KRZTJ5.png

Schadenfreude is our friend : )

[Argo57]

https://i.imgur.com/7KRZTJ5.png

Schadenfreude is our friend : )

Love it.
His show sucked!

[ToneDeaf]

A very noble thread to start here and kudos to the OP.

Here’s to both championship winning teams striving forward.

Aaaaargooooooooooooos! Go TFC!

[rdavies]

https://i.imgur.com/4Cmy5PB.png

[Argo57]

I have several friends who have been diehard TFC fans since the beginning, most who sent me congrats after our latest World Title.
To them I say congrats and enjoy the party tonight!

[argos1873]

Congrats to TFC.

[Shatto]

Glad to see the "congrats" on Argo Twitter soon after the TFC win. Classy thing to do, in spite of the long delay of the same "congrats" coming the other way when Argos won the GC.

Regardless---well done and well deserved TFC.

[Joe Barnes]

Way to go, TFC! Congrats on a well earned victory...

[Argofan_1000]

https://i.imgur.com/7KRZTJ5.png

Schadenfreude is our friend : )

Dean needed to include his own show as an option. Can't ask now, he works under the Gardiner everyday washing wind shields. Does a good job too.

Congrats to TFC

[RB957]

Glad to see the "congrats" on Argo Twitter soon after the TFC win. Classy thing to do, in spite of the long delay of the same "congrats" coming the other way when Argos won the GC.

Regardless---well done and well deserved TFC.

I totally agree and wish TFC all the best. However, I was told by two separate friends today that they heard on the media (not sure which) congratulations being offered to TFC for winning the first "major" championship in Toronto since 1993. If that is true, (and there is no reason to doubt my friends, who are both credible and heard it independently), then that sucks. If intentional, it shows that there is still a bias to some degree to the CFL. I hope it was just an oversight.

["Issues"Mcgee]

I totally agree and wish TFC all the best. However, I was told by two separate friends today that they heard on the media (not sure which) congratulations being offered to TFC for winning the first "major" championship in Toronto since 1993. If that is true, (and there is no reason to doubt my friends, who are both credible and heard it independently), then that sucks. If intentional, it shows that there is still a bias to some degree to the CFL. I hope it was just an oversight.

That has CBC written all over it. They criticize every other sport but ignore the ills that come with soccer such as violence and neo nazism.

[Argobouncer]

I totally agree and wish TFC all the best. However, I was told by two separate friends today that they heard on the media (not sure which) congratulations being offered to TFC for winning the first "major" championship in Toronto since 1993. If that is true, (and there is no reason to doubt my friends, who are both credible and heard it independently), then that sucks. If intentional, it shows that there is still a bias to some degree to the CFL. I hope it was just an oversight.

That's just somebody trolling. Everyone knows MLS is not considered "major" or even close to the elite of the sport. Even just in North America the Mexican league is considered higher than MLS.

[R.J]

Congrats to TFC and Tanenbaum.

[ArgoGabe22]

And Argos ruining the turf is a problem? How does this even happen?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">113 after the game. <br>Took some beating.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TFCLive?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#TFCLive</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MLSCup?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MLSCup</a> <a href="https://t.co/5aa4nPKKrE">pic.twitter.com/5aa4nPKKrE</a></p>&mdash; Jarrek (@JarrekTO) <a href="https://twitter.com/JarrekTO/status/939722632513036288?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 10, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Argo57]

And Argos ruining the turf is a problem? How does this even happen?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">113 after the game. <br>Took some beating.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TFCLive?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#TFCLive</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MLSCup?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MLSCup</a> <a href="https://t.co/5aa4nPKKrE">pic.twitter.com/5aa4nPKKrE</a></p>&mdash; Jarrek (@JarrekTO) <a href="https://twitter.com/JarrekTO/status/939722632513036288?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 10, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I guess the hooligan soccer fan behaviour is part of the game day experience?

[gilthethrill]

TFC fans were just celebrating.

[Argo57]

TFC fans were just celebrating.

I vandalized my family room when the Argos won the Grey Cup so I shouldn’t talk.
😛

[ArgoZ]

City owned stadium, so I’d imagine MLSE will get the bill to fix the seats. Luckily, these extremely low quality seats are an easy fix and they likely have hundreds in storage.

[RB957]

And Argos ruining the turf is a problem? How does this even happen?

<twitterwidget class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" id="twitter-widget-0" style="position: static; visibility: visible; display: block; transform: rotate(0deg); max-width: 100%; width: 500px; min-width: 220px; margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px;" data-tweet-id="939722632513036288"></twitterwidget>
<script async="" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's disgusting.

<iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: none;" title="Twitter analytics iframe"></iframe>

[Shatto]

Seats were probably damaged when fans stood and jumped on the seats, in excitement at the end of the game. Really don't see TFC fans destroying stadium seats on purpose. A couple of questions though----who took the pictures?, who posted the pictures?, is BMO following up with TFC to discover who were in those seats?, where was security when the damage was done?

Let's give the fans the benefit of the doubt and assume the damage was accidental, until any further information proves otherwise.

Kind of reminds me of the 50's when jubilant football fans used to tear the goalposts down after a championship win--when they were made of wood---of course those fans often got arrested and charged with drunken behaviour etc. Understand it still occasionally happens at college games in the States.

[Wobbler]

It'll be fixed.

[rdavies]

And Argos ruining the turf is a problem? How does this even happen?I saw that as well and that is a total lie.

Might as well get this straight now. Before the Argos went to BMO the object of the TFC "fan" scorn were the "fat" "out of shape" baseball players. There is a significant amount of TFC fans who believe that if they attack other sports and denigrate them that will somehow make soccer/TFC look better and "take over". Neither the Impact or Whitecaps fans do this. Where it all turned was when it was announced the Argos were going to BMO, then you saw full on social media attack.

They post at CFL sites posing as fans and insidiously take shots and denigrate the CFL in any way they can. They do it here and at other CFL sites. They are usually allowed to get away with it and yet if a CFL fan goes to one of their sites they are banned immediately.

Now for the big lie. They like to tell everybody that football destroys their precious turf except that isn't true, it is soccer that does the damage. How do we know that? It comes from the mouth of the groundskeeper at probably the most famous turf in the world, Wembley.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHNxCzUBnNQ

Here is what he says

Tony Stones, Head Groundsman, Wembley Stadium

"We find most damage is caused by football (soccer) players digging in, turning quick, whereas an NFL game it's all solid, it's crunching together, Desso likes that, holds together well, it's when they're doing quick turns, your Rugby Union you get a bit of quick turning in that as well and a bit of scrummaging so you get a bit of mess from that but I'd say most damage comes from football (soccer)

It's warmups, football (soccer) warmups that are the worst thing, that's where we get the most damage from, especially the goalkeepers that will not use his portable goal, they insist on using his main goal that creates us some serious trouble" 51

Now since the sky hasn't fallen and a number of TFC people have seen reason, this issue is not as bad as it was but there are still many who post this lie, Now, the Argos are taking the high road and many TFC fans are classless as always (as seen from not posting congrats to the Argos until after it was mentioned) but that doesn't mean you have to turn your back to some of their tricks.

BTW, the part about soccer being the most damaging to turf is backed up by John Torres the head groundskeeper at Philadelphia's PPL park who hosted a seminar called "Playing Surface Management (https://www.pathlms.com/nscaa/product_bundles/126)" at the 2015 MLS draft. Torres says that, though it surprises some people, soccer does the most damage to a playing field of the sports he's worked with. 25

Now before some people get all upset, I'm not trying to start anything, just telling it like it is/was, the situation is much better now, but when obvious lies are put out there, the experts' opinion is out there as well, and it's best to be "armed" with the truth.

[Shatto]

Maybe I missed it but did the TFC front office, on behalf of the club and the majority of the TFC fans (who I believe are reasonable individuals), ever post an apology for the tasteless "No Argos@BMO" banners prominently displayed just before the Eastern final?

[gilthethrill]

Maybe I missed it but did the TFC front office, on behalf of the club and the majority of the TFC fans (who I believe are reasonable individuals), ever post an apology for the tasteless "No Argos@BMO" banners prominently displayed just before the Eastern final?

Good question...not that I am aware of.

[BATKINSON001]

Maybe I missed it but did the TFC front office, on behalf of the club and the majority of the TFC fans (who I believe are reasonable individuals), ever post an apology for the tasteless "No Argos@BMO" banners prominently displayed just before the Eastern final?

why would they?

it wasn't done by the club, it was done by stupid classless children fans who wont grow up and learn to share what isn't theirs to begin with.

[AngeloV]

Seats were probably damaged when fans stood and jumped on the seats, in excitement at the end of the game. Really don't see TFC fans destroying stadium seats on purpose. .

I don't know about that. If it was just the broken seats I may be inclined to agree with you, but the picture clearly shows areas where the entire seat has been ripped out. That doesn't happen from jumping up and down on them.

[Ron]

Maybe I missed it but did the TFC front office, on behalf of the club and the majority of the TFC fans (who I believe are reasonable individuals), ever post an apology for the tasteless "No Argos@BMO" banners prominently displayed just before the Eastern final?

It's great that they didn't as it would have given the sign a larger profile in the media.

[rdavies]

Had to laugh at a comment at another site responding to a post showing the damage.

"I am quite confident they left the pitch intact, though! " : )

[Shatto]

To answer the question "Why would they?"----normally any organization will comment when unacceptable behaviour is conducted by anyone, who might be construed to represent the organization in any way, shape or form. Perhaps expecting an apology might be a little much but surely a comment from the front office expressing regret for the affront directed at the Argos and their fans Perhaps a comment distancing the club from the unacceptable behaviour would be appropriate. Also a request requesting fans to refrain from activities that their co-tenant might find distasteful, would be nice.

A positive and principled stand by the TFC front office, making it clear that such behaviour is not approved of, by the management, would go a long way towards establishing a better sense of harmony between the two clubs and their fans. I certainly would expect this from the Argos, if the shoe were on the other foot. Or am I being naïve in expecting such an approach?---hope not.

[Argofan_1000]

It was on purpose. Starts with 1 then others do it.

[Argobouncer]

Argos & Grey Cup still outdrawing Toronto FC & the MLS Cup on TV by quite a lot. Had over twice as many TV viewers for the Division Finals (1.4mil vs 641k), and 4.1m (Grey Cup) to 1.3m (MLS Cup) for the Final game of each league on TSN.

Both teams got about the same number of fans out to Nathan Phillips Square for their celebrations (4-5k). Props to both franchises

Paulo Senra‏ @paulosenra (https://twitter.com/paulosenra)<small class="time" style="font-size: 14px; color: rgb(101, 119, 134); margin-right: 5px; white-space: nowrap;"> 2h2 hours ago (https://twitter.com/paulosenra/status/940317011992875010)</small><button class="ProfileTweet-actionButton u-textUserColorHover dropdown-toggle js-dropdown-toggle" type="button" aria-haspopup="true" style="color: rgb(101, 119, 134); font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-size: 16px; line-height: 1; font-family: inherit; margin: 0px; overflow: visible; cursor: pointer; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; border-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; padding: 2px 9px; transition: box-shadow 0.15s ease-in-out; position: relative;">More
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From notes I kept this past year + google searches: the average TV ratings on the night champions were crowned in 2017. Football still leading.

Super Bowl : 4.47M
Stanley Cup : 2.67M
NBA Finals : 588K
World Series : 1.13M
Grey Cup : 4.3M
MLS Cup : 1.3M

[argotom]

No me.
I don't give a rats rectum about TFC or the 5th Division quality MLS.
TFC is nothing more than a niche sport in this city, with television numbers of infomercial size.
Not that I have ever been, but I am told on their site they have nothing positive ever to say about the Argos or the CFL.
So why should we care here.
In fact these photos of damages, show how there are soccer hooligans also in this country.

[R.J]

A lot of people out for their parade.

[AngeloV]

A lot of people out for their parade.

As there were for the Argos in 2012. Had the Argos had had an actual parade, just as many would have been out. Working at Bay and Wellington for the last 28+ years, I can tell you that people that work down there would go out and watch any championship team being celebrated along the route. The true indication is how many people go into Nathan Phillips Square for the rally. I wasn't there today, but from people I know that went to both, the crowd there today was very similar to the Argos celebration 2 weeks ago.

[R.J]

TFC's Nathan Phillips Rally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMnf358B_A

Sad that they have to copy Iceland's Viking Clap.

[rdavies]

Possible BMO Field changes (start at 10:35)

Prime Time Sports (http://pmd.fan590.com/audio_on_demand-5/Bill-Manning-on-PTS-PTS-20171211-Interview.mp3)
Where does Toronto FC go from here?
December 11 2017

Toronto FC President Bill Manning joins Joey Vendetta and Damien Cox to discuss the team's MLS Cup win, their focus on the CONCACAF Champions League, how this team compares to his 2009 Real Salt Lake club, whether or not he sees TFC becoming the New York Yankees of MLS, and what the off-season plans are.

[Saugonaut]

Popped out of the office today to see the TFC parade, it felt very much like the Argos in 2012. Both cases it was really cool seeing the trophis!

[ToneDeaf]

TFC's Nathan Phillips Rally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMnf358B_A

Sad that they have to copy Iceland's Viking Clap.

It’s been done at TFC since 2008.

[BATKINSON001]

Possible BMO Field changes (start at 10:35)

Prime Time Sports (http://pmd.fan590.com/audio_on_demand-5/Bill-Manning-on-PTS-PTS-20171211-Interview.mp3)
Where does Toronto FC go from here?
December 11 2017

Toronto FC President Bill Manning joins Joey Vendetta and Damien Cox to discuss the team's MLS Cup win, their focus on the CONCACAF Champions League, how this team compares to his 2009 Real Salt Lake club, whether or not he sees TFC becoming the New York Yankees of MLS, and what the off-season plans are.

As for expanding bmo, they had better work with the Argos. Keeping the stands in the northend is a good idea.

[timlb01]

A lot of people out for their parade.

I agree with others the crowd size was similar to the Argo one. Just watch how they show the crowd and everything is a close up. I do think TFC did a great job and the enthusiasm of there fans is infectious. People from work always talk about the atmosphere there. I am sure over the next few years the Argos will move in the same direction. I also think it is very interesting on game day you see a lot of people wearing TFC clothing but you don't see that for the Argos. I believe a lot of the TFC fans are localized in the Liberty Village area. Very different dynamics than what the Argos draw from what I can tell.

[paulwoods13]

As for expanding bmo, they had better work with the Argos. Keeping the stands in the northend is a good idea.

Can't do it and fit in a CFL field. That's why there is turf in that end zone.

[Joe Barnes]

Can't do it and fit in a CFL field. That's why there is turf in that end zone.

I think they mean turning the stands added to the north end for the playoffs into a permanent structure. The downside of this is it eliminates the fan deck/patio feature the Argos have been trying to develop there.

[paulwoods13]

I think they mean turning the stands added to the north end for the playoffs into a permanent structure. The downside of this is it eliminates the fan deck/patio feature the Argos have been trying to develop there.

OK. Not sure I see a great need for more seats at this point, especially if it removes something else that is working.

[Topshelf]

Problem is bmo needs to get to 45-50 for the world cup, so at some point another significant renovation will happen.
I think the TFC win helps the argos, as we should be able to finally stop talking about the ground share being an issue.
The field held up fine, both teams played as late into fall as possible (other than a grey cup hosting), both teams won on home turf.
Aside from a very small group of self described hooligans, the no argos at bmo slogan should be dead.
And that's only good for the argos. A sports fan is a sports fan, I think you're more likely to get a tfc game atendee to check out an argos game, rather than a retiree who had seasons tix in the early 80s and now watches at home.

[Mightygoose]

To echo the above (post came the same time as mine) My understanding, any major expansion will be contingent on hosting World Cup games. One thought is rebuild the West side to the same size as the East. I could be mistaken though.

Expanding for TFC alone? Despite the good support, if I was MLSE, I would wait until TFC's contention window ends and see what attendance does first.

[Shatto]

If Canada ever gets the soccer World Cup, it should be provisional that some games are played across the whole country, including the east coast.. Perhaps that way we can obtain a stadium in Halifax that can subsequently be the home of the Schooners.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

It’s been done at TFC since 2008.

actually it only started last year during Icelands miracle run at the Euros

[DoubleBlue_Red]

I agree with others the crowd size was similar to the Argo one. Just watch how they show the crowd and everything is a close up. I do think TFC did a great job and the enthusiasm of there fans is infectious. People from work always talk about the atmosphere there. I am sure over the next few years the Argos will move in the same direction. I also think it is very interesting on game day you see a lot of people wearing TFC clothing but you don't see that for the Argos. I believe a lot of the TFC fans are localized in the Liberty Village area. Very different dynamics than what the Argos draw from what I can tell.

I see a lot of people getting on the GO train at Burlington and every stop in between there and Mimico.

[R.J]

actually it only started last year during Icelands miracle run at the Euros
Yup.

[Rich]

As there were for the Argos in 2012. The true indication is how many people go into Nathan Phillips Square for the rally. I wasn't there today, but from people I know that went to both, the crowd there today was very similar to the Argos celebration 2 weeks ago.

This is huge. Getting people to NPS at noon on a workday is a real test of a fanbase. I think a lot of people were surprised at how big the Argos rally was, and now that the TFC rally was the same size, everyone in the media can put aside their anecdotal notions that TFC is more popular that the Argonauts in this town

[ArgoZ]

actually it only started last year during Icelands miracle run at the Euros


Yup.

TFC supporters have had their own drum/clap version for many years, 2008 is probably right. The whole stadium participating, (made famous by Iceland) has only been a thing since 2016 Euros. I guess you could say some supporter groups are not copying Iceland, but the rest of the stadium is.

[Joe Barnes]

I would say adding seats would be ill-advised. They have a great thing going on at BMO - both teams. Once TFC goes into a rebuild, there will be no need for extra seats for them, and as we know, empty seats don't play well on TV, negatively affect atmosphere and perception of 'a place to be'.

Rebuilding the West side would be a bad idea, as well, IMO. Right now, the original stadium is mostly made of metal, which is why it is so loud when the crowd stomps its feet. This is a huge part of what makes the atmosphere at BMO so good. If you 'improve' the stadium, that likely means reinforced concrete (like most other stadiums and the new East side upper deck at BMO), thus eliminating that unique, sound making quality we currently have. In 2016, my STs were on the upper East side, and it was nowhere near as good as the West, from an atmosphere standpoint. What we have now is excellent - leave it alone!

[ArgoRavi]

The most I see them doing for any World Cup bid is adding temporary seats to bring capacity up a bit. To be brutally honest though, it isn't like Canada would be hosting the biggest games in a World Cup that has the U.S. and Mexico as co-hosts.

[Rich]

Adding a second deck on the West side has always been part of the plan. That's why they built the West side roof so high, to accommodate a second deck.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

I would say adding seats would be ill-advised. They have a great thing going on at BMO - both teams. Once TFC goes into a rebuild, there will be no need for extra seats for them, and as we know, empty seats don't play well on TV, negatively affect atmosphere and perception of 'a place to be'.

Rebuilding the West side would be a bad idea, as well, IMO. Right now, the original stadium is mostly made of metal, which is why it is so loud when the crowd stomps its feet. This is a huge part of what makes the atmosphere at BMO so good. If you 'improve' the stadium, that likely means reinforced concrete (like most other stadiums and the new East side upper deck at BMO), thus eliminating that unique, sound making quality we currently have. In 2016, my STs were on the upper East side, and it was nowhere near as good as the West, from an atmosphere standpoint. What we have now is excellent - leave it alone!

TFC won't need to rebuild - its MLS not MLB. They will simply spend $20 million on designated players.

[Scooter McCray]

TFC won't need to rebuild - its MLS not MLB. They will simply spend $20 million on designated players.Where does the money come from to be able to do this?

[DoubleBlue_Red]

Where does the money come from to be able to do this?

MLSE, ticket sales, tv contract with TSN, sponsorship w/ Bell Media, KIA, BMO etc.

If the team is successful then they are playing more games in CONACAF which means more ticket sales.

[Scooter McCray]

MLSE, ticket sales, tv contract with TSN, sponsorship w/ Bell Media, KIA, BMO etc.

If the team is successful then they are playing more games in CONACAF which means more ticket sales.None of those things add up to anywhere near $20 million. Unless MLSE chooses to take a huge bath on the team. Which they have to be. The only hope for ROI has to be ever rising expansion fees. That cannot be a sustainable business model. The Argos generate 5X the tv viewership but pay players $5,000,000 combined. If the Argos are losing MLSE $5m per year how much are TFC losing them?

[R.J]

According to Forbes, TFC loses about $9 million
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2017/08/16/major-league-soccers-most-valuable-teams-2/2/#6ac68d8b199c

And that's with MLSE using the Leafs to sell TFC corporate sponsorship and tickets (about $21 million according to Rick Westhead a couple of years ago). Imagine what the Argonauts could do if Rogers bought into them, and the Argonauts were a part of MLSE.

[rdavies]

According to Forbes, TFC loses about $9 million (http:// https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2017/08/16/major-league-soccers-most-valuable-teams-2/2/#6ac68d8b199c)

And that's with MLSE using the Leafs to sell TFC corporate sponsorship and tickets (about $21 million according to Rick Westhead a couple of years ago). Imagine what the Argonauts could do if Rogers bought into them, and the Argonauts were a part of MLSE.https://i.imgur.com/eBnNgXf.png

[R.J]

Is there a reason why you felt the need to post something I just posted rdavies ?

[Golden Fleece]

Imagine what the Argonauts could do if Rogers bought into them, and the Argonauts were a part of MLSE.

Imagine no longer. Are you clairvoyant or did you have inside information? LOL

[R.J]

Imagine no longer. Are you clairvoyant or did you have inside information? LOL
I thought it would happen eventually, but not this soon.

Not sure how many here would care, but I've heard that MLSE has been in talks with Jamie Dawick about the Rock for a little while now. Initiated by Dawick from my understanding.

[1971GreyCup]

According to Forbes, TFC loses about $9 million
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2017/08/16/major-league-soccers-most-valuable-teams-2/2/#6ac68d8b199c

And that's with MLSE using the Leafs to sell TFC corporate sponsorship and tickets (about $21 million according to Rick Westhead a couple of years ago). Imagine what the Argonauts could do if Rogers bought into them, and the Argonauts were a part of MLSE.

One could tolerate $9 million loss if you share in expansion fees for the new teams. The two new teams are putting up $150 million. That fee continues to rise.

[Ron]

I thought it would happen eventually, but not this soon.

.

They read your post and just had to buy them right away. And voila!

[Shatto]

It was a thrill to see TFC join the Argos as champions of their league. The team has rewarded its loyal and numerous fans with this championship.

It has been a pleasure seeing the success of the league and TFC in particular. However, there are still many challenges facing MLS before it can be acclaimed as an unmitigated success:

. The majority of the clubs are still losing money (TFC supposedly lost 9 M)

. There is no salary cap, allowing rich clubs to buy success on the field.(even the mighty NFL has a salary cap for the sake of parity)

. The danger of charter clubs being abandoned in the chase for profit

. Disappointing TV ratings-only 1.14 m USA viewers for the championship game(drop of 43%). A drop from 1.5 m to 1.3 m in Canada. When compared to Super Bowl and Grey Cup, it shows a general disinterest in the most important soccer game of the year. Some will point to extenuating circumstances for the poor numbers but the numbers are so dismal, the league must be concerned. When a regular league game in a foreign country(UK's Premier league) can have more U.S. viewers than their own championship, it's got to be worrying.

.What some see as the inflated price to enter the league. If this major source of revenue goes bust, the league could be in serious trouble.

Soccer is a wonderful game but if the above issues are not addressed, it is possible, we could see the whole thing collapse like a house of cards. I enjoy watching the occasional soccer game but must admit I'm a fervent fan of the CFL, so hopefully I'm not being too biased in my concerns about the MLS.

.

[argos1873]

Is there a reason why you felt the need to post something I just posted rdavies ?

He was probably just posting the picture from your link, so people could immediately see it. Why are you always so pissy? Always posting ??? and huh?? Just relax dude. Lol.

[argos1873]

One could tolerate $9 million loss if you share in expansion fees for the new teams. The two new teams are putting up $150 million. That fee continues to rise.

This is why the franchise values are so high. People putting up the money for the franchises are obviously betting on soccer. They may be right, but I really don't see it, at least the way they do. I do agree that soccer will continue to rise in popularity, mainly due to immigration, and changing demographics, but I think they are getting ahead of themselves, and basically turning the MLS into a pyramid scheme. They promised not to follow the old NASL scheme of rapid expansion, but they let that slip in the search of easy $$$. I don't have a crystal ball, but in my humble opinion I see another implosion of pro soccer in North America if the MLS is not careful. There are many franchises losing money, and a couple of fires in certain cities. I will only say that MLS needs to be very careful unless they want to end up in the very full graveyards of defunct North American soccer leagues. I actually wish them well, but I find that hard to do with certain TFC fan types, but that's a different story.

[Shatto]

The biggest danger to MLS, is loss of confidence by present owners and potential new investors in the product. As long as everyone involved, retains confidence, that things will continue to get better and values of clubs will continue to climb, then all will be well. If the majority of the clubs continue to lose money and any potential TV revenue looks like it might disappear because of poor television numbers, then there is always the possibility that confidence could wane.

No endeavour can succeed in the long run, if it continues to rely on new investors to keep the books balanced. Eventually, either the endeavour runs out of new investors or lack of confidence it long range profitability, causes potential investors to abandon the idea of getting involved.

As "argos1873" mentioned, NASL eventually collapsed because of over reaching with rapid expansion and mounting debts. MLS would be wise to learn from this example and be more cautious and take a slower approach to future growth. Failure to do so could result in a dot com type crash.

The warnings are on the horizon but hopefully MLS will take a more prudent approach in their business model and avoid a collapse of the league. But as we have seen numerous times in the past, no organization is too big to fail.

[1971GreyCup]

Nashville joined the MLS as the 24th franchisee. Another $150m to divide equally amongst the existing franchise. Nice!

[argos1873]

Nashville joined the MLS as the 24th franchisee. Another $150m to divide equally amongst the existing franchise. Nice!

The founders of Amway nod their head in approval. But all joking aside, that's 6.8 million per franchise, as I assume that the pending new LA franchise doesn't get a cut of that money. I could be wrong, but if they do then that's 6.5 million. Nothing to scoff at, but TFC still loses 3 million per season if all things remain the same. I can see the board room presentations; the future of sport in North America is soccer, and at $150 million you are getting in on the ground floor. I can't say they are wrong, but I'm not as certain as they are that they are right. But what do I know, I had a chance to buy bitcoin at 10 cents a coin but didn't and later owned 10 coins and sold them for a hefty 700 dollar profit. I wish them all the luck in the world in their ventures.

[Argofan_1000]

According to Forbes, TFC loses about $9 million
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2017/08/16/major-league-soccers-most-valuable-teams-2/2/#6ac68d8b199c

And that's with MLSE using the Leafs to sell TFC corporate sponsorship and tickets (about $21 million according to Rick Westhead a couple of years ago). Imagine what the Argonauts could do if Rogers bought into them, and the Argonauts were a part of MLSE.

$9 Million loss per Forbes would be in US $ wouldn't it?

[DoubleBlue_Red]

Nashville and Sacramento just granted MLS franchises - more expansion fees - yee haw!

[argotom]

Nashville and Sacramento just granted MLS franchises - more expansion fees - yee haw!


A definite ponzy scheme.
Who gives a rats rectum about the MLS and TFC.

[argos1873]

A definite ponzy scheme.
Who gives a rats rectum about the MLS and TFC.

Its a ponzy scheme until it proves itself otherwise, but still, there's people who care about MLS and TFC. People say who cares about the CFL and the Argos. They are aholes. You don't need to be like them. Let them enjoy what they like, while they can.

[Topshelf]

Wouldn't the easier way of determining a teams value be what someone is willing to pay for it?
The CFL has solid ownership now, but we don't have to go very far back to when that wasn't the case.
That said, the tv ratings for the mls cup have to be a cause for some alarm. All of the points on both sides are valid.
But as fans we all have to move on from the tfc/argos debate.
Both teams won titles this year, both teams are successful, both teams have loyal fans. Just because a small group of hooligans hung a banner on an overpass, is no reason to wish for a franchise/league to fold

[Scooter McCray]

Why is the fee $150 million? And why are people paying it? To lose money and have low tv audience. Je ne comprends pas.

[Shatto]

I'm not sure anyone has actually stated they wanted to see MLS/TFC fold. It is possible to infer from some of the statements, that some are not exactly rooting for the league but few really wish the league to collapse. Most of us are cautioning that the continued success of the league can't be based on exorbitant expansion fees, as that will lead to eventual disaster.
With the hugely disappointing TV ratings for the MLS Cup and the majority of the teams losing money, relying on expansion fees to keep teams afloat, is not a sound business model. What many of us are urging, is for the league, not to over reach with rapid expansion but rather take a more prudent approach to the growth of the league.
Many want to see both the Argos and TFC being successful on the field and on the books but this can only happen if MLS is put on sound financial footing and depending on what appears to be inflated expansion fees, could well blow up in the league's face sooner or later.

[argos1873]

Why is the fee $150 million? And why are people paying it? To lose money and have low tv audience. Je ne comprends pas.

Because a slick haired huckster has convinced them that soccer is the future of sport in North America. Well that's not really how it happened, but that's the jist of it. Its the same ploy they pushed in the 70s with the NASL, but the only difference now, is that is more a reality than it was then. But I guarantee you they are convincing the new franchisees that they are getting in on the ground floor. 150 million will look like chump change in a decade they are telling them. I'm very sure there's lots of immigration numbers, and demographic numbers being shown. So hey maybe they are right. I still think they are doubling down on something that is far from a sure thing. It would be like doubling down on the CFL because many Canadians watch football. But wait, many of them ONLY watch the NFL and no matter what you try to sell them, will ONLY watch NFL. Well many soccer fans ONLY watch and will ONLY watch European soccer etc. This is why many people, including myself believe the MLS is really just a pyramid scheme. Think of it, probably all pro North American leagues are a bit of a pyramid scheme, get it before the next and then make money off of the next, but no league, except maybe the NASL has expanded as rapidly as the MLS. If the TV numbers and the profit numbers were there, I would say that's warranted, but they aren't, so what does that really tell you? They are trying their hardest to get expansion money, when they can, and to hell with the future, if they can't help it. Basically a pyramid scheme.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

Look at the Atlanta United case though - they averaged 60k this year. This is in a stadium that also houses Falcons and Georgia State bowl games. Perhaps the revolution will not be televised..

[paulwoods13]

I don't think there's any doubt that MLS is here to stay and will continue to grow in popularity. Premier League, Champions League, World Cup and Euro are all way bigger in North America than they ever were in the past, so interest in the sport is growing. MLS faces some challenges, including the belief it is well below the calibre of the European leagues, but it is here, has mostly good facilities to play in, and tons of parents are putting their kids in soccer rather than more violent and expensive sports. A major structural challenge MLS faces is being out of synch with the international soccer calendar -- this causes regular disruptive breaks in its schedule and requires it to play 10 months of the year. But the idea that the whole thing is a pyramid scheme based on suckering rich guys to pay expansion fees seems way off base to me.

[Scooter McCray]

I don't think there's any doubt that MLS is here to stay and will continue to grow in popularity. Premier League, Champions League, World Cup and Euro are all way bigger in North America than they ever were in the past, so interest in the sport is growing. MLS faces some challenges, including the belief it is well below the calibre of the European leagues, but it is here, has mostly good facilities to play in, and tons of parents are putting their kids in soccer rather than more violent and expensive sports. A major structural challenge MLS faces is being out of synch with the international soccer calendar -- this causes regular disruptive breaks in its schedule and requires it to play 10 months of the year. But the idea that the whole thing is a pyramid scheme based on suckering rich guys to pay expansion fees seems way off base to me.I agree that soccer isn't going away but most if not all of the people putting up $150 million will never see that money again. The economics of the CFL are stronger based upon viewership yet franchises are worth no more than $5 million.

[bluto]

Some people may need to adjust their thinking. NYCFC, owned by Manchester City's City Football group (6 Futbol clubs around the world and growing) was established for a $100M expansion fee less than 5 years ago. Forbes has them at $275M now with an estimated $36M revenue... which is behind TFC's valuation and revenue.

[AngeloV]

I agree that soccer isn't going away but most if not all of the people putting up $150 million will never see that money again. The economics of the CFL are stronger based upon viewership yet franchises are worth no more than $5 million.

I think stronger franchises like Ottawa, Edmonton and Saskatchewan are worth considerably more than 5M. I think the Argos sold for more than that despite the hard times they've had. I would bet the Saskatchewan and Edmonton could sell for more than $25M if they ever decided to sell to private groups.

[bluto]

I think stronger franchises like Ottawa, Edmonton and Saskatchewan are worth considerably more than 5M. I think the Argos sold for more than that despite the hard times they've had. I would bet the Saskatchewan and Edmonton could sell for more than $25M if they ever decided to sell to private groups.

The main difference in valuations is likely that the CFL's broadcaster doesn't have sexy initials like ESPN or NBC.

[Scooter McCray]

I think stronger franchises like Ottawa, Edmonton and Saskatchewan are worth considerably more than 5M. I think the Argos sold for more than that despite the hard times they've had. I would bet the Saskatchewan and Edmonton could sell for more than $25M if they ever decided to sell to private groups.Maybe. Saskatchewan is a top 10 north America merchandise franchise, play in the best stadium in Canada and have tv viewership MLS clubs will only ever dream about. How can they be worth 1/6 of an MLS expansion fee? Coke ca juste.

[Tau Ceti]

Credible valuations of the Roughriders are around $40-45 million. This is "real value," based on actual revenue, expense, profit, etc.

Real valuations of the middle tier of MLS would probably be in a similar range. But the $150 million figure is not based on real value. It's perceived value, which is a different animal. At the end of the day, billionaires are willing to pay $150 for an MLS team because, as others have said, that's what it's worth to them (prestige, city pride, whatever).

No CFL team has a perceived value that high.

[Ron]

It's also a factor that the CFL is in Canada alone. If you're some American super rich dealer then buying a MLS team for 150 is a lot cheaper than buying an NFL, NBA, MLB or even an NHL team for a lot more. Gets you in a game.

[1971GreyCup]

Don't forget the new stadia been built across MLS. They're investing $250m in facilities too. It occurs to me that this stadia could be dual purpose built for American football too. Is that the avenue where XFL 2.0 returns?

Super rich owners didn't get super rich by throwing good money after bad.

[argos1873]

I don't think there's any doubt that MLS is here to stay and will continue to grow in popularity. Premier League, Champions League, World Cup and Euro are all way bigger in North America than they ever were in the past, so interest in the sport is growing. MLS faces some challenges, including the belief it is well below the calibre of the European leagues, but it is here, has mostly good facilities to play in, and tons of parents are putting their kids in soccer rather than more violent and expensive sports. A major structural challenge MLS faces is being out of synch with the international soccer calendar -- this causes regular disruptive breaks in its schedule and requires it to play 10 months of the year. But the idea that the whole thing is a pyramid scheme based on suckering rich guys to pay expansion fees seems way off base to me.

Its definitely here to stay if they don't get too aggressive. I'm being a bit facetious with it being a pyramid scheme, I admit. But like you said there are challenges that the league faces, not the least of which is the perception of the league (very similar to what the CFL faces), and the quickest way they can fail is to over expand, and have franchise fires all over the place. As I've said many times, I do not wish them to fail. I also have high hopes, but don't think it will succeed, in the Canadian Premier League. It would face even more perception challenges than MLS and CFL combined, especially when the top tier teams in Canada will be playing in a foreign league. I wish somehow MLS and CPL could have some sort of agreement in which TFC, Whitecaps and Impact moved to the CPL, and there was some cooperation somehow, so that Canadian fans didn't feel like there teams were being taking away from top competition, but that we had our own viable league, like most other countries in the world. Not sure how that would happen, and probably nobody else really does, and therefore it will never happen. But one can dream.

[OV Argo]

Credible valuations of the Roughriders are around $40-45 million. This is "real value," based on actual revenue, expense, profit, etc.

Real valuations of the middle tier of MLS would probably be in a similar range. But the $150 million figure is not based on real value. It's perceived value, which is a different animal. At the end of the day, billionaires are willing to pay $150 for an MLS team because, as others have said, that's what it's worth to them (prestige, city pride, whatever).

No CFL team has a perceived value that high.


Wonder what the CFL BOG (hey - GOB spelled bacwards) types would be asking for an Atlantic expansion team franchise fee ?

IMO - they should bend over backwards to let them in for free basically - cause it would be such a huge shot in the arm for the league and all franchises; but that would fly in the face of biz-ness/profit motive & gouging deep thinking.

Also wonder what old cheap-skate Braley is expecting to get for the Lions? - did I hear he was asking 15 mil ? = that's a total joke IMO.

[AngeloV]

Wonder what the CFL BOG (hey - GOB spelled bacwards) types would be asking for an Atlantic expansion team franchise fee ?

IMO - they should bend over backwards to let them in for free basically - cause it would be such a huge shot in the arm for the league and all franchises; but that would fly in the face of biz-ness/profit motive & gouging deep thinking.

Also wonder what old cheap-skate Braley is expecting to get for the Lions? - did I hear he was asking 15 mil ? = that's a total joke IMO.

I agree with you OV. Maybe have them put up some operating capital to prove they can handle things, but I agree expansion fee if they get greedy could be a deal breaker.

[argos1873]

I agree with you OV. Maybe have them put up some operating capital to prove they can handle things, but I agree expansion fee if they get greedy could be a deal breaker.

I agree with the free or low expansion fee, as the CFL would actually be the main benefactor in this arrangement and all the risk lays on the investor, HOWEVER, how do you season seat holders feel when someone gets a seat for cheaper than you paid, because the team is desperate to put butts in the seats? Some may think its good, but many will think why did they put all this money upfront, only to have other's get even cheaper seats, at a moments notice. Also, what's the argument of some people against the Argos for example pricing their seats too low? It devalues the product. Seriously what would the sports/business world think of the CFL if they gave a franchise away for free? Only in the extreme case where this franchise somehow lifts the CFL into the sporting stratosphere would this look like a good deal. Otherwise, it will just cement into the naysayers heads that this is a 2 bit league worthy of 2 bit attention. Therefore, the CFL needs to CAREFULLY arrange an expansion fee, one that allows a group to be able to afford it, and one that doesn't make the league look like a complete joke. A fine line indeed.

[Tau Ceti]

Agree with @argos1873. A no fee expansion devalues the league. To reuse a term from above, it reinforces the perceived value of CFL teams as nil.

Rather like an engagement ring, the expansion fee shows the suitor has financial means and is serious about commitment.

Finally, there are real burdens for existing teams: expansion draft, travel costs, diminished TV share, etc. I'd offer a $9 million expansion fee and disburse it amongst existing teams. If that's too much for the franchisee then they probably weren't serious about surviving the lean years anyway.

[1971GreyCup]

Wonder what the CFL BOG (hey - GOB spelled bacwards) types would be asking for an Atlantic expansion team franchise fee ?

IMO - they should bend over backwards to let them in for free basically - cause it would be such a huge shot in the arm for the league and all franchises; but that would fly in the face of biz-ness/profit motive & gouging deep thinking.

Also wonder what old cheap-skate Braley is expecting to get for the Lions? - did I hear he was asking 15 mil ? = that's a total joke IMO.

I read somewhere that Ottawa paid an expansion fee of $4.5 -$5 million. I suspect that unless the CFL would like to return this fee, they'd better recover at least that amount from a new team. Look for MLSE to except value-added ideas to the league.

[AngeloV]

To be clear, I wasn't implying there should be no expansion fee what so ever. I meant they better not get greedy with it as Braley seems to be with his asking price for the Lions. Keeping under 5M with proof of good operating capital would be best IMO.

[1971GreyCup]

Careful not to want a tenth team so badly that they don't meet the criteria for a healthy franchise. Healthy expansion has to be the goal. Don't start with a marginal group. Keep Ottawa RedBlacks as the he model for expansion.

The Commissioner's job has to be to create value. Such as a new TV contract with cable/CBC/CTV/Global a start?

[R.J]

Wonder what the CFL BOG (hey - GOB spelled bacwards) types would be asking for an Atlantic expansion team franchise fee ?

IMO - they should bend over backwards to let them in for free basically - cause it would be such a huge shot in the arm for the league and all franchises; but that would fly in the face of biz-ness/profit motive & gouging deep thinking.

Also wonder what old cheap-skate Braley is expecting to get for the Lions? - did I hear he was asking 15 mil ? = that's a total joke IMO.
Braley reportedly wants around $20 million.

Free expansion team ? I don't think that's a good business move by the League - Basically saying that CFL teams are worthless, and I'm pretty sure the League and it's team are a $200+ million business.


I read somewhere that Ottawa paid an expansion fee of $4.5 -$5 million. I suspect that unless the CFL would like to return this fee, they'd better recover at least that amount from a new team. Look for MLSE to except value-added ideas to the league.
OSEG paid $7 million.

[argotom]

Speaking of franchise values, heck the Riders with the new wonderful stadium and continuing with the previous licence to print money mentality are I believe either number 2 or 3 in team merchandising in all of country.
Right behind the leafs.
Anyway the team has got to be worth way north of $100M.

[argos1873]

Speaking of franchise values, heck the Riders with the new wonderful stadium and continuing with the previous licence to print money mentality are I believe either number 2 or 3 in team merchandising in all of country.
Right behind the leafs.
Anyway the team has got to be worth way north of $100M.

Since the team is community owned, wouldn't their value be publicly known?

[paulwoods13]

Since the team is community owned, wouldn't their value be publicly known?

No. Value is whatever someone is willing to pay for it -- it's not an objective number unless the team is sold. The team's not for sale, so any conjecture about value is pure speculation.

[R.J]

Since the team is community owned, wouldn't their value be publicly known?
Nope, and it's very difficult to "buy" the team as well. Katz has looked into buying the Eskimos and Asper almost took over the Bombers during their stadium planning.

[argos1873]

No. Value is whatever someone is willing to pay for it -- it's not an objective number unless the team is sold. The team's not for sale, so any conjecture about value is pure speculation.

I agree with you, but as you know Forbes puts out their list of most valuable NFL/NHL/NBA/MLB teams for example. Most of those teams aren't for sale. You can put a value on something that isn't for sale, even if its just speculation, just like argotom's "the team has got to be worth way north of $100M", which is just speculation. But I would assume the organization itself has a number of their perceived value of their team's worth, based upon assets, revenue etc, and I was wondering that since its a community owned entity that that value might have to made public.

[paulwoods13]

I agree with you, but as you know Forbes puts out their list of most valuable NFL/NHL/NBA/MLB teams for example. Most of those teams aren't for sale. You can put a value on something that isn't for sale, even if its just speculation, just like argotom's "the team has got to be worth way north of $100M", which is just speculation. But I would assume the organization itself has a number of their perceived value of their team's worth, based upon assets, revenue etc, and I was wondering that since its a community owned entity that that value might have to made public.

I very much doubt the organization has anything more than directors shooting the breeze about it. Since the franchise is not for sale or really even sellable, what would be the point of paying an accountant to come up with a theoretical number? And even if they do have one, I can't see why it would be required to be released just because it's community owned. Unless the ownership agreement required that every piece of info held by the org be made public, which I'm sure it doesn't.

[argos1873]

I very much doubt the organization has anything more than directors shooting the breeze about it. Since the franchise is not for sale or really even sellable, what would be the point of paying an accountant to come up with a theoretical number? And even if they do have one, I can't see why it would be required to be released just because it's community owned. Unless the ownership agreement required that every piece of info held by the org be made public, which I'm sure it doesn't.

Ok thanks. Admittedly I thought there might be some rules in place, as there would be with a publicly traded company, but obviously that's not the case. However that doesn't stop some people from using the data from earnings, assets and outstanding shares (which are public) of the club to come up with a theoretical value. For example according to this Regina based "financial whiz" the Riders could have been valued at approx 43 million back in 2012 (theoretically of course): http://leaderpost.com/sports/football/cfl/saskatchewan-roughriders/assessing-the-riders-share-value

[1971GreyCup]

David Beckham may soon add a new MLS franchise.

Cleverly, he had in his past contract with LA Galaxy and MLS a right to add a franchise at anytime in the future for $25 million. He's now looking to exercise this option in Miami. Might be a good barometer to what he considers to a peaking in franchise fees for MLS?

[BATKINSON001]

And that's with MLSE using the Leafs to sell TFC corporate sponsorship and tickets (about $21 million according to Rick Westhead a couple of years ago). Imagine what the Argonauts could do if Rogers bought into them, and the Argonauts were a part of MLSE.

They have been part of mlse for a couple of years now and not much has been done as far as I can see. Argos tix should be mandatory for leafs and raptors ticket holders.