Tailgating Cancelled

[matthew]

Is what I read on 3Down for real, that the tailgates are cancelled? I find this really hard to believe and amazing if true.

http://3downnation.com/2018/04/09/argos-axe-tailgating-as-part-of-2018-changes/

[dmont]

.

Unbelievable, incredibly disappointing. Tailgating is a no brainer. It's done formally or informally in just about every football market in North America. Done right, it would be something unique that people could get from an Argonauts game that they can't get from any other Toronto sports team.

The Argonauts don't have a lack of interest problem. They have a won't-get-your-a$$-off-the-couch-and-show-up-at-the-game problem. They need to find some kind of gameday experience that is worth turning off the TV and showing up for. The tailgate was it. Done right, it's something great that you get from attending that does not translate through the TV screen.

The big caveat is the whole "done right" thing, and I would argue that the tailgate barely scratched the surface of it's potential under Copeland for obvious reasons. With the MLSE muscle behind it, they finally would have had the resources to do it right.

Manning, how could you think this was a good idea? Why should the casual fan show up now? Now, what's supposed to be the hook that builds the attendance? Tarped-off sections? Tried that. Cheaper tickets? Tried that. Outdoor games in a small stadium? Tried that.

That's it. It's hashtag time. #BringBackArgoTailgate . Even if you don't like social media, this trending crap is what an organization like MLSE pays attention to. Tweet and post it if you want MLSE to take notice and rethink their decision.

[shayman]

Grr. That was one thing that WAS working.

[Scooter McCray]

WTF. This was something to build on and make better not tear down. Pinball as brand ambassador is a good thing. He should still be the Argo CEO. Very muted attendance goals based upon my fear of doing nothing. The team will be very good this year and it looks as though they will be called upon to fill seats by their play rather than any effort made by management. Tarping seats? Really? Very disappointed. What will be the point of the town hall? Not to solicit feedback as they seem to have made their decisions. This guy clearly has zero passion for the team he has been put in charge of. Argos deserve better.

[gilthethrill]

Hard to tell a TFC guy is now running the Argos!😅

[ArgoGabe22]

It's worth the costs in a long run attempt to get fan base to grow IMO

[Neely2005]

It's all about the $ with MLSE! They weren't able to gouge fans at the Tailgates so they had to cancel them.

MLSE is a joke. I warned people about what they'd do to the Argonauts.

Wasn't discounted Tailgate parking one of the season ticket holder benefits?!?

[Antwon]

Very dissapointed they are cancelling tailgating. Had a lot of fun meeting other football fans etc.
It was also the hook to get other friends down to a game. Already had more planning on it for this year.
I'm guessing the MLSE lawyers looked at this and said it was a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[jerrym]

It makes no sense in terms of building fan support for a team that badly needs all the promotion that it can get.

[matthew]

This from the organization that likes to provide a similar experience in Maple Leaf Square for Leafs/Raptors and unofficially liberty village I am just amazed.

Assuming costs are:

Permit & lot rental: is there an appetite to slap on an entry fee among us in addition to the parking fee to help bridge this gap?
Security: assuming necessary for permit so no ideas here
Marketing Company: I understood that a marketing company was hired to run the tailgate. Was their contract too much. Now that we're part of MLSE with their marketers in house, is this not now cheaper?
Food Trucks: not really vital as most tailgaters know to bring their own food
Parking Lot marshalls: I thought the marshalls were Argo staffers but maybe not. Why not ask for volunteers for volunteers from the fan base? Invite people to a education session, train them how to park the cars and then have them co-ordinate their own shifts on game day.
Beer Girls/Guy: These are essential workers! LOL

[Neely2005]

Emailed the Argonauts about this. I will call them when I have time.

[argofan81]

So much for all those mini group sessions they held last year to get STHs opinions on what was and what wasn't working for them. At least at the one I attended, I know that the tailgaiting was specifically mentioned as something that was appreciated by the fans and how many of us felt that they helped bond together the Argo fan base. Sigh, it always seems to be one mini step forward and 10 giant steps backward with this team.

[smokeslet'sgo]

Always one step forward two steps back with this team. Will they at least allow people to tailgate on their own? I get not allowing alcohol in the lots (laws and all) but can you still use grills, hang out and toss footballs on an organic level? I sure hope so. MLSE have all the money in the world for their other teams but can't spare pocket change for the Argos. Nothing changes and nothing will change.

[shayman]

I wish we knew more about why it's being cancelled. Usually if you don't know the answer to a question, the answer is "money" so that's probably it - but I hope they considered ways to modify what seemed to be a successful event before bailing on it. It felt like the beginning of a tradition. People want to belong to a community and the tailgates gave me that feeling more than the game did.

Frustrating. My wife enjoyed the tailgates more than the games. We met up with friends there - although it was a little stressful trying to time our arrivals so we could park adjacently. (Wish we could have pre-booked a spot. There are lots of things the team could have tried before just abandoning this.)

I wish they could have made the original plan work which was to have the majority of the tailgates in the CNE lot adjacent to the stadium. That would have made everything bigger and better. Who knows what logistical plans scuttled that though.

[Hook16]

As always feedback is important and appreciated. Although tailgate at Ontario Place will not take place. It should be noted that the Shipyard at Barricks will be back and offer fans a great venue pre-game. Although I do not have all the details (those will come) I wanted to ensure many of you were aware of this. A few other things to note:

1. Price reduction on season tickets - season ticket holders will receive a credit applied to their account
2. Pre-season game will be held in Guelph - season ticket holders will receive the value credited to their account
3. Further enhanced in game experience

I can assure everyone that ownership is committed to growing the fan base and the Argonauts brand within this market.

Thank you for the continued support of the Toronto Argonauts
Michael Hook

[gilthethrill]

As always feedback is important and appreciated. Although tailgate at Ontario Place will not take place. It should be noted that the Shipyard at Barricks will be back and offer fans a great venue pre-game. Although I do not have all the details (those will come) I wanted to ensure many of you were aware of this. A few other things to note:

1. Price reduction on season tickets - season ticket holders will receive a credit applied to their account
2. Pre-season game will be held in Guelph - season ticket holders will receive the value credited to their account
3. Further enhanced in game experience

I can assure everyone that ownership is committed to growing the fan base and the Argonauts brand within this market.

Thank you for the continued support of the Toronto Argonauts
Michael Hook

I can safely say that the fans who are on this forum appreciate you taking time to log in and provide us with reassurance.

[Neely2005]

Emailed the Argonauts about this. I will call them when I have time.

Mike Hook has replied. Nothing confidential here so I'm going to share his response:

As always thank you for the email and feedback. I can appreciate your frustration but can advise that although tailgate is cancelled we will be have the Shipyard back for this season at the Barracks. The plan is to fully activate this area for pre-game and work with Budweiser on building out a fan and engaging space.

Not sure if you have seen but we have also rolled out revised pricing and a rescaling of the stadium. Something that was discussed last year at the open mic nights. Please note that you will receive a credit on your account for the difference of what you paid, including a credit for the value of the pre-season game.

Please note that I am no longer working on the Argos ticketing. MLSE has shifted my focus to the premium side of the business (suites) for Argos and other teams. That said I am always happy to help out season tickets holders. You will be contacted in the coming days from one of the sales reps.

Thank you for the continued support and I can assure you that MLSE is committed to growing the Argos fan base!


MICHAEL HOOK | PREMIUM SALES

Toronto Argonauts Football Club

[Rich]

As always feedback is important and appreciated. Although tailgate at Ontario Place will not take place. It should be noted that the Shipyard at Barricks will be back and offer fans a great venue pre-game. Although I do not have all the details (those will come) I wanted to ensure many of you were aware of this. A few other things to note:

1. Price reduction on season tickets - season ticket holders will receive a credit applied to their account
2. Pre-season game will be held in Guelph - season ticket holders will receive the value credited to their account
3. Further enhanced in game experience

I can assure everyone that ownership is committed to growing the fan base and the Argonauts brand within this market.

Thank you for the continued support of the Toronto Argonauts
Michael Hook

I would gladly give up any ticket credit if it meant keeping the tailgates. Shame on MLSE for nickel and diming this club and killing something that could have grown into a very unique sports experience for many Torontonians.

[dmont]

As always feedback is important and appreciated. Although tailgate at Ontario Place will not take place. It should be noted that the Shipyard at Barricks will be back and offer fans a great venue pre-game. Although I do not have all the details (those will come) I wanted to ensure many of you were aware of this. A few other things to note:

1. Price reduction on season tickets - season ticket holders will receive a credit applied to their account
2. Pre-season game will be held in Guelph - season ticket holders will receive the value credited to their account
3. Further enhanced in game experience

I can assure everyone that ownership is committed to growing the fan base and the Argonauts brand within this market.

Thank you for the continued support of the Toronto Argonauts
Michael Hook

WHY????? Why won't the tailgate take place?

Shipyard is not the same as a tailgate. Any Toronto team can (and probably does) provide some version of the Shipyard, there's nothing about it that lets the Argos stand out in a crowded professional sports market. Standing around with a cheap hotdog and a plastic cup in my hand isn't the same as driving up with a barbeque, cooler, lawn chairs, and stereo. Why do you think virtually every other football team in North America does a tailgate instead of a "Shipyard"? Because it's different, organic, and unique! I understand Ontario liquor laws make tailgating a special challenge that imposes some constraints, but this is something that should be grown not shut down.

I say boo to your bosses, Michael Hook, for a lack of vision and lack of understanding into what's been tried in the past and what this team needs to do differently. I hope everyone else joins me in campaigning to have this decision reversed.

[Neely2005]

Mike Hook has replied. Nothing confidential here so I'm going to share his response:

As always thank you for the email and feedback. I can appreciate your frustration but can advise that although tailgate is cancelled we will be have the Shipyard back for this season at the Barracks. The plan is to fully activate this area for pre-game and work with Budweiser on building out a fan and engaging space.

Not sure if you have seen but we have also rolled out revised pricing and a rescaling of the stadium. Something that was discussed last year at the open mic nights. Please note that you will receive a credit on your account for the difference of what you paid, including a credit for the value of the pre-season game.

Please note that I am no longer working on the Argos ticketing. MLSE has shifted my focus to the premium side of the business (suites) for Argos and other teams. That said I am always happy to help out season tickets holders. You will be contacted in the coming days from one of the sales reps.

Thank you for the continued support and I can assure you that MLSE is committed to growing the Argos fan base!


MICHAEL HOOK | PREMIUM SALES

Toronto Argonauts Football Club

My reply in case anyone is interested:

Thank you for the quick reply. It's very disappointing that the new Argonauts president is choosing to take away the one unique game day experience that the Argonauts had.

The Argonauts get good TV Ratings and poor attendance, the exact opposite of TFC. MLSE should be enhancing the Tailgates, not cancelling them.

This just reinforces MLSE's reputation as being a greedy entity that's more interested in the Suits and caviar crowd than the real fans.

[argofan81]

I will be reaching out for a refund in the difference of the new pricing structure -- it looks like I have overpaid by approx. $288 for my 2 season tickets -- that's what I get for buying early! That amount of money is better served in my bank account or at least on my credit card, thanks! And with Tailgaiting out, what exactly would I be using the credit for this year -- not much; I'm not willing to let the team assume that I will renew my tickets again next year (that will have to be earned by team management!).

[Neely2005]

I will be reaching out for a refund in the difference of the new pricing structure -- it looks like I have overpaid by approx. $288 for my 2 season tickets -- that's what I get for buying early! That amount of money is better served in my bank account or at least on my credit card, thanks! And with Tailgaiting out, what exactly would I be using the credit for this year -- not much; I'm not willing to let the team assume that I will renew my tickets again next year (that will have to be earned by team management!).

Agreed. I'll be contacting them for a refund too.

[shayman]

More info is coming out. Bill Manning:

"With the ordinances and where they are, it is hard to replicate what they do in Ohio State or with the Florida Eagles," said Manning.


https://www.tsn.ca/argos-to-reduce-capacity-at-bmo-field-1.1051198

Respectfully, I don't think anybody was trying to replicate "what they do with the Florida Eagles".

[Neely2005]

Well the price decrease is very significant at least. Our season tickets went from $499 each to $159 each!

[Shatto]

Very disappointing news. If there was one positive element, aside from the game itself, it was the attraction of the tailgating. Having done both tailgating and Shipyard, I can tell you there is no comparison, Tailgating wins hands down. This decision was made without seeking any input from the fans. What type of organization makes decisions like this without at least polling their clients first? Unbelievable!

It appears Manning is using the TFC experience as a template, to determine how Argo fans are to be treated, which is a huge mistake as they are two very different fan bases. As much as I appreciate Michael Hook informing us through this version of social media, it is completely unprofessional for management to withhold information about such pertinent decisions . The information about the exhibition game and the cancellation of Tailgating should have been communicated officially and early by management through e-mail and print media.

So let's look at Manning's performance so far:
.Little or no communication to STH's and other fans
.Schedule the replacement of BMO field for TFC convenience without consideration of Argo fans' wishes
.The home Exhibition game to be played mid-week at an out of town location
.Cancel the one unique and positive experience the Argo fans were enjoying (Tailgating)
.An almost condescending attitude to the Argos when comparing them to TFC
.No imaginative or creative strategy for increasing attendance
.Tarping off some seating areas at BMO to camouflage attendance issues rather than trying to increase attendance

Doesn't give one much confidence in management, I'm afraid.

[Neely2005]

More info is coming out. Bill Manning:

"With the ordinances and where they are, it is hard to replicate what they do in Ohio State or with the Florida Eagles," said Manning.


https://www.tsn.ca/argos-to-reduce-capacity-at-bmo-field-1.1051198

Respectfully, I don't think anybody was trying to replicate "what they do with the Florida Eagles".

The Argonauts Tailgates were perfect. No drunks as you had to buy your drinks there but drinks were fairly priced.

[Neely2005]

Very disappointing news. If there was one positive element, aside from the game itself, it was the attraction of the tailgating. Having done both tailgating and Shipyard, I can tell you there is no comparison, Tailgating wins hands down. This decision was made without seeking any input from the fans. What type of organization makes decisions like this without at least polling their clients first? Unbelievable!

It appears Manning is using the TFC experience as a template, to determine how Argo fans are to be treated, which is a huge mistake as they are two very different fan bases. As much as I appreciate Michael Hook informing us through this version of social media, it is completely unprofessional for management to withhold information about such pertinent decisions . The information about the exhibition game and the cancellation of Tailgating should have been communicated officially and early by management through e-mail and print media.

So let's look at Manning's performance so far:
.Little or no communication to STH's and other fans
.Schedule the replacement of BMO field for TFC convenience without consideration of Argo fans' wishes
.The home Exhibition game to be played mid-week at an out of town location
.Cancel the one unique and positive experience the Argo fans were enjoying (Tailgating)
.An almost condescending attitude to the Argos when comparing them to TFC
.No imaginative or creative strategy for increasing attendance
.Tarping off some seating areas at BMO to camouflage attendance issues rather than trying to increase attendance

Doesn't give one much confidence in management, I'm afraid.

Welcome to MLSE! These asshats couldn't organize a 2 car parade.

[dmont]

More info is coming out. Bill Manning:

"With the ordinances and where they are, it is hard to replicate what they do in Ohio State or with the Florida Eagles," said Manning.


https://www.tsn.ca/argos-to-reduce-capacity-at-bmo-field-1.1051198

Respectfully, I don't think anybody was trying to replicate "what they do with the Florida Eagles".

My first reaction was "who the hell are the Florida Eagles?" Does he mean FGCU? They don't have a football team! We definitely aren't trying to replicate that!

[shayman]

My first reaction was "who the hell are the Florida Eagles?" Does he mean FGCU? They don't have a football team! We definitely aren't trying to replicate that!

I suspect he's demonstrating the depth of his knowledge of football :-)

[Neely2005]

I suspect he's demonstrating the depth of his knowledge of football :-)

Exactly. So for all of you who wanted Michael Copeland out, are you happy now?

[dmont]

My first reaction was "who the hell are the Florida Eagles?" Does he mean FGCU? They don't have a football team! We definitely aren't trying to replicate that!

I figured it out: https://www.nefleaglecam.org/

No, Mr. Manning...... aside from the slick merchandising, this is not what we're trying to replicate.

[paulwoods13]

Manning clearly knows who the Philadelphia Eagles are -- he worked for that franchise for four years. I'm betting the reporter simply misheard or mistyped.

[GregR]

They need to explain to the fans why the tailgating was stopped. Very unprofessional how they handled it. It was sold as a season ticket benefit! I got the email for STH touting BIG NEWS! That is not exactly positive big news management.

[Canary]

I think you guys should give Bill Manning the benefit of the doubt. He's done a lot to increase the TFC season ticket base. I think he knows the way to do it sustainably isn't through magic bullets but the unsexy stuff of having a strategy, good on-line communications tools to build your customer lists, getting in front of people etc. And, honestly, millennials don't even have drivers licences. Driving to a downtown stadium is a nightmare - they don't have that problem in the US where stadiums are built on the outskirts of cities with acres and acres of parking. I don't see how tailgating was the magic bullet. Personally I think you'll see improvements this year.

[paulwoods13]

They need to explain to the fans why the tailgating was stopped. Very unprofessional how they handled it. It was sold as a season ticket benefit! I got the email for STH touting BIG NEWS! That is not exactly positive big news management.

If I read Naylor correctly, Manning explained to reporters that it was not worth the cost. I assume it was a hard-headed business decision (the sort of thing that successful enterprises do all the time). Assuming it's mostly the same couple of hundred people there most of the time, does it grow the business enough to justify the costs of doing it?

[paulwoods13]

I think you guys should give Bill Manning the benefit of the doubt. He's done a lot to increase the TFC season ticket base. I think he knows the way to do it sustainably isn't through magic bullets but the unsexy stuff of having a strategy, good on-line communications tools to build your customer lists, getting in front of people etc. And, honestly, millennials don't even have drivers licences. Driving to a downtown stadium is a nightmare - they don't have that problem in the US where stadiums are built on the outskirts of cities with acres and acres of parking. I don't see how tailgating was the magic bullet. Personally I think you'll see improvements this year.

Excellent points, and welcome to the site.

[dmont]

If I read Naylor correctly, Manning explained to reporters that it was not worth the cost. I assume it was a hard-headed business decision (the sort of thing that successful enterprises do all the time). Assuming it's mostly the same couple of hundred people there most of the time, does it grow the business enough to justify the costs of doing it?

If MLSE invested their considerable resources in promoting it and improving it, I think it would absolutely pay off in the long run. A good investment doesn't necessarily pay off immediately, it can do so over the long term and still be worth it. Even with roadblocks thrown up by the Ontario liquor laws, a robust tailgate would be something you can't get anywhere else in the city.

Not to mention their schedule is much improved this season with more Saturday games conducive to attracting fans to an hours-long tailgate.

[paulwoods13]

If MLSE invested their considerable resources in promoting it and improving it, I think it would absolutely pay off in the long run. A good investment doesn't necessarily pay off immediately, it can do so over the long term and still be worth it. Even with roadblocks thrown up by the Ontario liquor laws, a robust tailgate would be something you can't get anywhere else in the city.

Not to mention their schedule is much improved this season with more Saturday games conducive to attracting fans to an hours-long tailgate.

Last season also had tons of Saturday games. A lot of people don't drive to the games, so tailgates are meaningless to them. I do agree that a long-term plan is needed, but the long-term plan needs to be about selling more tickets, not keeping a few hundred regular tailgaters happy. Maybe the tailgate could have grown over time to include a few thousand new fans, but with the logistical and legal restrictions in place, I find it hard to see that happening. Maybe if they could open the main Ex Place parking lot, but that will never happen because the stadium is not the only facility on the site.

[R.J]

Exactly. So for all of you who wanted Michael Copeland out, are you happy now?
I know I am.

How many people attended the tailgate ?
Did the tailgate increase attendance ?

Tailgates should be organic and run by the fans IMO. Keeping the Shipyard in some form is a good idea. I actually like the moves the team has made as of late.

[matthew]

Article on The Athletic now.

[AngeloV]

For me personally, I'll take the 20% reduction I received on my season ticket packages over the tailgate anytime. I realize many on here loved the tailgate, and for you guys sorry this is being stopped, but for those who claim it will hurt attendance, give me a break. 13-15k in the stands shows the tailgate did nothing to help the Argos attendance wise. The best atmosphere for a game last regular season was the game during the CNE, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no tailgate that day.

[Neely2005]

If I read Naylor correctly, Manning explained to reporters that it was not worth the cost. I assume it was a hard-headed business decision (the sort of thing that successful enterprises do all the time). Assuming it's mostly the same couple of hundred people there most of the time, does it grow the business enough to justify the costs of doing it?

I attended every Tailgate except for last seasons preseason game. They were definitely growing by a noticeable amount. Aside from the Grey Cup Tailgate the last one was the biggest one yet.

[Neely2005]

For me personally, I'll take the 20% reduction I received on my season ticket packages over the tailgate anytime. I realize many on here loved the tailgate, and for you guys sorry this is being stopped, but for those who claim it will hurt attendance, give me a break. 13-15k in the stands shows the tailgate did nothing to help the Argos attendance wise. The best atmosphere for a game last regular season was the game during the CNE, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no tailgate that day.

The best atmosphere for a game was the Eastern Final, and that was the biggest Argonauts Tailgate.

[Shatto]

In regards to tailgating and attendance, in our case we took several members of our family, who normally do not attend Argo games. Mostly this included teenagers turned on to the CFL for the first time. When you have a successful product , you don't cancel it, you build on it.

The management of the exhibition game, tailgating, lack of timely communication and even seat price reduction, reminds me of an old movie "The Gang that Couldn't Shot Straight"

So, instead of a huge marketing endeavour at the time of season tickets going on sale, exclaiming to one and all, that all season tickets were going on sale at a fantastic new low price, we are left with the impression that we were sold overpriced tickets to begin with and now they are returning our money to us.

Just to go back to tailgating---it was the one thing that marked an Argo game unique and different from all the other sports. That's the type of thing one expands upon and markets to the public, as giving the Argo fan something different. If it was not cost effective, then write it off as a marketing expense and use it in the team's advertising and marketing.

I respect those who say we should give Manning time to prove himself but I can't think of one endeavour, so far, that he has managed well. Hopefully he will turn things around but it appears he is more interested in reproducing a TFC experience rather than creating a strategy unique to the interests of Argo fans. Perhaps I'm being overly critical of Mr. Manning and how he is running the ship and for the sake of the future of the team, hopefully I am wrong in my evaluation of his performance to date. But I don't think I am.

[Neely2005]

In regards to tailgating and attendance, in our case we took several members of our family, who normally do not attend Argo games. Mostly this included teenagers turned on to the CFL for the first time. When you have a successful product , you don't cancel it, you build on it.

The management of the exhibition game, tailgating, lack of timely communication and even seat price reduction, reminds me of an old movie "The Gang that Couldn't Shot Straight"

So, instead of a huge marketing endeavour at the time of season tickets going on sale, exclaiming to one and all, that all season tickets were going on sale at a fantastic new low price, we are left with the impression that we were sold overpriced tickets to begin with and now they are returning our money to us.

Just to go back to tailgating---it was the one thing that marked an Argo game unique and different from all the other sports. That's the type of thing one expands upon and markets to the public, as giving the Argo fan something different. If it was not cost effective, then write it off as a marketing expense and use it in the team's advertising and marketing.

I respect those who say we should give Manning time to prove himself but I can't think of one endeavour, so far, that he has managed well. Hopefully he will turn things around but it appears he is more interested in reproducing a TFC experience rather than creating a strategy unique to the interests of Argo fans. Perhaps I'm being overly critical of Mr. Manning and how he is running the ship and for the sake of the future of the team, hopefully I am wrong in my evaluation of his performance to date. But I don't think I am.

Our experience has been similar. We brought a lot of different people to the Tailgates and everyone enjoyed them and came back because they enjoyed the Tailgate experience.

[paulwoods13]

I attended every Tailgate except for last seasons preseason game. They were definitely growing by a noticeable amount. Aside from the Grey Cup Tailgate the last one was the biggest one yet.

How many attendees, roughly? And when you say you brought a lot of different people to the tailgates, how many?

[paulwoods13]

If it was not cost effective, then write it off as a marketing expense and use it in the team's advertising and marketing.


Precisely what happened in 2016 and 2017, when paid attendance dropped year over year. No successful enterprise will keep losing money on the same unsuccessful marketing schemes year after year. There's little doubt the tailgate was fun for those who attended, but they represented just a small fraction of the paying customers, and there's only a bit of anecdotal evidence about some people who went to games only because of tailgates.

[Neely2005]

How many attendees, roughly? And when you say you brought a lot of different people to the tailgates, how many?

The biggest Tailgates were a few thousand, the smallest a few hundred. They were bigger on weekends and they were growing. Over the 2 seasons we brought about 50+ total.

[AngeloV]

The best atmosphere for a game was the Eastern Final, and that was the biggest Argonauts Tailgate.

I guess you didn't see the part where I said LAST REGULAR SEASON. Playoff game in 2013 vs Hamilton also had great atmosphere despite the loss. No official tailgate then. Playoffs are a different breed. Atmoshere is always great.


The biggest Tailgates were a few thousand, the smallest a few hundred. They were bigger on weekends and they were growing. Over the 2 seasons we brought about 50+ total.

They were growing, yet actual attendance wasn't. Think about that.

[Saugonaut]

I'll be GO training it in so no tailgating in my future. Loved it at the Bills games though, feel bummed out all the fans missing out.

Hope the Shipyard thing is good.

[Argo57]

For me personally, I'll take the 20% reduction I received on my season ticket packages over the tailgate anytime. I realize many on here loved the tailgate, and for you guys sorry this is being stopped, but for those who claim it will hurt attendance, give me a break. 13-15k in the stands shows the tailgate did nothing to help the Argos attendance wise. The best atmosphere for a game last regular season was the game during the CNE, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no tailgate that day.

Yes sir, I’m with you on this one.
Personally could care less about tailgating but like the cost saving on my tickets, especially when considering $44.00 or so in GO train tickets per game, dinner, snacks for my son it does add up.

[timlb01]

What matters to me is a winning team, every year and a full stadium. I don't like changing the game plan to do this every other year but I hope this is the end and it works this time. Regardless this is the best league and game around. Nothing is better than attending Argo games and winning, especially attending 4 Grey Cups with the Argos winning. Some of the best memories every. Please fill the stadium......please............. the league and team deserve it!!!!!!!!

[dmont]

Last season also had tons of Saturday games. A lot of people don't drive to the games, so tailgates are meaningless to them. I do agree that a long-term plan is needed, but the long-term plan needs to be about selling more tickets, not keeping a few hundred regular tailgaters happy. Maybe the tailgate could have grown over time to include a few thousand new fans, but with the logistical and legal restrictions in place, I find it hard to see that happening. Maybe if they could open the main Ex Place parking lot, but that will never happen because the stadium is not the only facility on the site.

My argument isn't that the past two season's tailgates were unbelievable. My argument is that, done properly, they are the best chance to 1) give new fans something unique that no other sports team in Toronto can do, and 2) give existing fans who watch on TV a good reason to attend the game in person.

We idiots don't need a hook to get us to attend a game. But there aren't enough of we idiots. With MLSE behind it, the tailgate would have been a great draw to the game, would have presented great promotional and marketing opportunities, and could have shown the city that something exciting was happening down at BMO (I wish CFL football was enough for most people in the city, but unfortunately it's not).

They could have AT THE PITIFUL LEAST tried it for one season with the full MLSE backing before throwing in the towel. Now we'll never know. Short-sighted cowards.

[paulwoods13]

It's interesting how some people are ripping the move as MLSE stupidity, and others think the marketing geniuses of MLSE could have made the tailgate a big success.

[R.J]

What I find interesting is how a couple of hundred people at best going to most tailgating events= success to some.

[rdavies]

Argos to introduce lower ticket prices and nix parking lot tailgating (http://3downnation.com/2018/04/09/argos-introduce-lower-ticket-prices-nix-parking-lot-tailgating/#comment-134593)
Tara Deschamps, Canadian Press April 9 2018

Toronto Argonauts fans can expect lower ticket prices this season, along with tailgating inside the stadium and branding focused on the team’s roots as a rowing club.

The changes announced Monday are part of owner Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment’s ambitious efforts to revamp the Argos and after years of attendance woes and build a fanbase as large and rabid as MLSE’s other teams – the NHL’s Toronto Maple Leafs, NBA’s Toronto Raptors and Toronto FC of Major League Soccer.

“Our job is to make sure that club is on the same playing field as the rest of our great franchises here,” said Jerry Ferguson, MLSE’s head of marketing. “We want people to feel and believe that the Argos is Toronto’s team.”

The Argos averaged less than 14,000 fans last season at BMO Field, a stadium that seats roughly 26,000. To increase that number, MLSE says it will target millennials new to the CFL experience as well as long-time Argos supporters. If both groups are enticed to come out to games, MLSE thinks it can increase their stadium audience.

To get fans to games, the average ticket price will be rolled back by 23 per cent, meaning about 2,600 tickets will be sold for as low as $15 per game for season’s seat holders and $19 per game for single-seat buyers.

“At the Argos, the fanbase has struggled a little bit,” Argos president Bill Manning admitted. “We were actually priced higher than TFC and we were losing some of the family aspect of Argos games.”

He said the team won’t drop ticket prices too low or give seats away en mass, because once someone is used to tickets being so cheap or getting them for free “they’ll never pay.”

However, the club will “condense” seating, by selling tickets in the lower bowl first and keeping the upper deck on the east side empty, unless demand increases to fill those seats.

The team will also nix tailgating parties in the parking lots outside BMO Field and move them into the stadium. The popular U.S. phenomenon was brought to Argos games in 2016, but provincial liquor laws meant fans had to purchase booze on-site instead of bringing it from home.

Manning, who grew up in the U.S., said Toronto’s tailgating felt “forced.”

“With the ordinances and where they are, it is hard to replicate what they do in Ohio State,” said Manning. “It actually costs the organization a lot of money to put that on and it wasn’t worth it with the number of people that actually did it.”

He didn’t share specifics about how tailgating at BMO Field will work, but said MLSE is toying with specials and an area at the north end of the stadium that could be built out.

Meanwhile, fans will be able to purchase new Argos merchandise emblazoned with cannons, shields and typography inspired by old cuts of wood.

The nautical themes are rooted in the team’s past as part of the Argonaut Rowing Club, which had a football team as a way to stay fit. The merchandise will feature the blue hues associated with Oxford and Cambridge Universities, a homage to the rowing club’s love of both schools’ rugby teams.

The team will use an old slogan “Pull Together” in an attempt to match bravado of the Raptors’ “We the North” and TFC’s “All for One” campaigns.

“We want to create a sense of rivalry, so if you’re from here, you love us and if you’re not from here, you hate us,” said Ferguson.

That message wasn’t lost on CFL Commissioner Randy Ambrosie, who joked that he took one look at a forthcoming Argos shirt with “Toronto” written over a map of Canada and thought “I’m a Winnipegger, born and raised, so I already hate that.”

He said that the attitude was indicative of the league’s bold plans to become “bigger, stronger, better.”

“The CFL is no longer interested in being the humble church mouse league. We are no longer interested in being small and obscure,” he said. “We are no longer interested in making do. We want to take the Canadian Football League to new heights.”

[ArgoZ]

Only made it to one tailgate, had fun, but the Shipyard, if done right, would satisfy myself. Feel sorry for those that loved it and will miss it. If the trade off is my $499 tickets now costing $255, I'll take no tailgate.

[OV Argo]

It's interesting how some people are ripping the move as MLSE stupidity, and others think the marketing geniuses of MLSE could have made the tailgate a big success.

It's also interesting how the usual defenders of the faith are going to defend/excuse anything the Argo corporate expert owners are going to do; and to hell with the know nothing fans. Just STFU and buy Argo tickets will ya, and who cares about an event that plenty enjoyed and that adds to the game day experience. Bring back the SkyDome Nazi security maybe too, to keep those fans in line.

[Neely2005]

It's also interesting how the usual defenders of the faith are going to defend/excuse anything the Argo corporate expert owners are going to do; and to hell with the know nothing fans. Just STFU and buy Argo tickets will ya, and who cares about an event that plenty enjoyed and that adds to the game day experience. Bring back the SkyDome Nazi security maybe too, to keep those fans in line.

To The Defenders of the Faith the Argonauts can do no wrong.

[OV Argo]

To The Defenders of the Faith the Argonauts can do no wrong.

I get that some are very good with corporate weasels - led by NFL wannabes and soccer first snobs, who don't think much of the Argos and the dinky little minor league CFL - running the Argos now; and believe they will improve the Argos fortunes and status on the TO sports map. I hope they are right and i wish them luck. Sorry for not being down with that program though.

The comments I've read here and on the 3RD Down site on the matter - including some saying they will no cancel their season tix over this - are not that encouraging however. But f*** joe average fan who is not with the corporate program, eh ? ;o)

[ArgoGabe22]

Article on The Athletic now.

My subscription ended today.

[dmont]

It's interesting how some people are ripping the move as MLSE stupidity, and others think the marketing geniuses of MLSE could have made the tailgate a big success.

Message is solid, so attack the messenger. Gotcha...

That MLSE have near-limitless resources and the ability to market is a fact; unchallengeable. Constraints are not the issue. The decision to kill the tailgate without giving it a chance tells me that they a) are considering the short-run more than the long run, b) are not terribly interested in investing in the team, and c) are ignorant of what has and hasn't worked for the team in the past. I'm questioning their will, vision, and understanding of the team's unique challenges. Not their resources or capabilities.

And to all of you saying "If it means I save money on my seasons tickets, then I'm ok with killing the tailgate": it's not an either-or choice. If indeed the Argo tickets were more expensive than TFC tickets, then reducing the price is a no-brainer. Should have been done last season. Reducing the ticket price doesn't necessitate killing the tailgate; that was a conscious choice that MLSE made to save a few bucks in the short term.

I'm not calling for season ticket holders to boycott. I'm just pointing out what an incredible long-term opportunity a decent tailgate would mean to the future of this team and its place in the city. If you feel the same way, absolutely contact your ticket rep and let them know.

[ArgoGabe22]

I never tailgated and probably never will, so I'm not personally invested in the decision. But I will say that when Copeland took over from Braley, they really were starting from scratch and although a bit difficult with the laws in place, they did pull off some sort of tailgate.

While attendance didn't reach what we hoped for the tailgate did create some sort of buzz and was really new and unique to the Toronto sports scene. The tailgate definitely didn't hurt and I can see how it may have been costly to continue doing it. But from what I know, those who did it enjoyed it and those from out of town (opposing fans) also liked it, so you can't really say it was unsuccessful. I think something like this needs time to grow. All tailgates have to start somewhere and the ones in Edmonton or Calgary would've started with only a few people, a few grills and took years for it to take off to what it is today. I think it had potential here in Toronto and I think they pulled the plug on it a bit too soon but this could also start a new trend with angry fans deciding to F the system and do their own tailgate instead. So maybe MLSE are geniuses after all?

[Shatto]

My last comments re cancellation of tailgating, since the decision is made and won't be reversed. Paul is correct (as usual) that attendance went down, during the two years we had tailgating. But I'd like to think that was in spite of tailgating and without tailgating the attendance might have dropped even more. Regarding the numbers, though I have no conclusive or even objective evidence, since most vehicles appeared to have four people on the average, it suggests the actual number of fans might well have been a lot higher than just 200.

The decision to terminate tailgating was almost certainly made by Manning. His comments "tailgating felt forced" and "it wasn't worth it" definitely suggests the decision was made early in his tenure as president. I'm not sure how he came to the perception that it" felt forced", as that certainly was not my perception.

So just a few summary thoughts( I recognize they are my opinions only and others may disagree):
.Whether it was 200 or a 1000, the decision has made game day a little less enjoyable for those folks
.A unique and different game day aspect from any other sport, has been lost
.Tailgating was a family type of activity. Manning said "we are losing some of the family aspects of Argo game" this will make that even worse
.If one aspect of a product is highly regarded by those using it, why eliminate that aspect, why not expand it?
.Can we assume beer will still be sold for $4 at the Shipyard?

The tailgating experience will be remembered fondly by those who were involved. Sometime in the future we may well speak of the good memories of the tailgating but now it has gone and guess we should all move on.


.

[matthew]

Mine has been expired for a while but I was still able to read article using The Athletic app.

Also noted the touch of irony in the new video where the stadium was shown through the heat waves of someone barbecuing at the TAILGATE!

So Shatto you're right, this is likely not coming back but to move on today is too soon.

[ArgofanIan]

Very disappointing news. If there was one positive element, aside from the game itself, it was the attraction of the tailgating. Having done both tailgating and Shipyard, I can tell you there is no comparison, Tailgating wins hands down. This decision was made without seeking any input from the fans. What type of organization makes decisions like this without at least polling their clients first? Unbelievable!

It appears Manning is using the TFC experience as a template, to determine how Argo fans are to be treated, which is a huge mistake as they are two very different fan bases. As much as I appreciate Michael Hook informing us through this version of social media, it is completely unprofessional for management to withhold information about such pertinent decisions . The information about the exhibition game and the cancellation of Tailgating should have been communicated officially and early by management through e-mail and print media.

So let's look at Manning's performance so far:
.Little or no communication to STH's and other fans
.Schedule the replacement of BMO field for TFC convenience without consideration of Argo fans' wishes
.The home Exhibition game to be played mid-week at an out of town location
.Cancel the one unique and positive experience the Argo fans were enjoying (Tailgating)
.An almost condescending attitude to the Argos when comparing them to TFC
.No imaginative or creative strategy for increasing attendance
.Tarping off some seating areas at BMO to camouflage attendance issues rather than trying to increase attendance

Doesn't give one much confidence in management, I'm afraid.


That's pretty well how I feel as well ... The tailgate was a ton of fun... this is very sad news...
Been an ARGO fan since the late 60's.... going to think about it this week... contemplating just asking for my season ticket money back....
We really need a dedicated president with some CFL knowledge or at least interest.

[Mightygoose]

Although it's disappointing to hear that they're ending it, but still, for people contemplating cancelling their season tickets despite the team lowering prices, having fewer price-points and a better merchansing discount....over a tailgate which wasn't even a ST benefit?

I think it's best to sleep on this.

[Treblecharger1]

Tailgating should be organic. Park your car and fire up your grill you will be fine. The Cops are not going to shut it down unless you are being stupid and creating a problem. I have been doing it for years at games in Hamilton and at TFC games and have never had an issue with police outside of them asking me to pour my beer into a plastic cup :)

[Stevoman]

As an Argos fan in BC I know my opinion means very little on this issue but when first hearing about it I thought it was a mistake. I'm happy for cheaper tickets as it will hopefully lead to larger crowds and for Pinball to be more visibly involved but also envied from afar what the tailgates would be like. They don't have to stop though as Treblecharger said in the post above, just do it anyway without it being team sanctioned.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Hey Stevoman, maybe you and I can have our own non-team sanctioned tailgate this year. Your driveway or mine?

[PullTogether73]

After yesterday's announcements, I thought I would check the reaction on this site.
(I stopped coming to this site last fall as I found the incessant whining by many posters here was actually ruining my enjoyment of the Argonauts and the CFL.)

I see that nothing has changed.
If I remember correctly, there was a lot of whining on this site about how the tailgating was going to be run when it was first set up. Beer prices would be too high...parking prices would be too high...lineups would be long if you couldn't bring your own beer....
Now, most of those people are crying about the scrapping of that same tailgating. :ohno:

A question for everyone here who is slamming MLSE for scrapping tailgating: Would you forgo the price reduction on your game tickets in order to retain tailgating?
No excuses about how MLSE has gobs of money that can be thrown around to "invest" in the Argos long term - So many people here are great at spending other peoples' money, yet those same people are screaming that they want a refund on the money for which they are receiving a credit for their already paid season tickets. Where is YOUR long-term investment in the team?

Talk is cheap.

[PullTogether73]

BTW, I see that the Argos are using one of my suggestions about restoring traditions - note my forum name and the moniker of the new marketing campaign.:D

I wonder if they will use one of my other suggestions of playing a team fight song after touchdowns.

[doubleblue]

After yesterday's announcements, I thought I would check the reaction on this site.
(I stopped coming to this site last fall as I found the incessant whining by many posters here was actually ruining my enjoyment of the Argonauts and the CFL.)

I see that nothing has changed.
If I remember correctly, there was a lot of whining on this site about how the tailgating was going to be run when it was first set up. Beer prices would be too high...parking prices would be too high...lineups would be long if you couldn't bring your own beer....
Now, most of those people are crying about the scrapping of that same tailgating. :ohno:

A question for everyone here who is slamming MLSE for scrapping tailgating: Would you forgo the price reduction on your game tickets in order to retain tailgating?
No excuses about how MLSE has gobs of money that can be thrown around to "invest" in the Argos long term - So many people here are great at spending other peoples' money, yet those same people are screaming that they want a refund on the money for which they are receiving a credit for their already paid season tickets. Where is YOUR long-term investment in the team?

Talk is cheap.

You're realize you are talking about the 1 %'ers.

[paulwoods13]

Message is solid, so attack the messenger. Gotcha...

If that was attacking the messenger, was it also attacking the other messenger?

[paulwoods13]

So let's assume that 1,000 people regularly attended tailgates. (I find that a bit hard to believe, but maybe it's true.) And let's imagine that over time, the tailgates might have expanded to hold 5,000. (I don't think the parking lot could accommodate that many, but let's say I'm wrong.) That's still 15,000 fewer people than they hope to put into the stadium consistently. Every paying customer benefits from the price decrease. Only those who attend tailgate benefit from the existence of tailgate. While it's possible people who would otherwise not go to a game would go to a tailgate and be converted into ticket-buying fans, the number seems more likely to be in the dozens than the thousands.

[paulwoods13]

No excuses about how MLSE has gobs of money that can be thrown around to "invest" in the Argos long term - So many people here are great at spending other peoples' money, yet those same people are screaming that they want a refund on the money for which they are receiving a credit for their already paid season tickets. Where is YOUR long-term investment in the team?


This. People's proclivity for spending the money of for-profit enterprises owned by someone other than themselves knows no bounds. Yes, MLSE has massive revenues. It is also in the business of making profit for its shareholders, and in fact has a fiduciary obligation to maximize their return on investment. That's capitalism for you.

[OV Argo]

This. People's proclivity for spending the money of for-profit enterprises owned by someone other than themselves knows no bounds. Yes, MLSE has massive revenues. It is also in the business of making profit for its shareholders, and in fact has a fiduciary obligation to maximize their return on investment. That's capitalism for you.

Gee, thanks for the Economics 101 lesson there Karl Marx (or is it Goucho ?).

We must all bow down to the Argos saviour/master - the allmighty corporation- and worship whatever they say or do. "Shareholders" eh ? - LOL

[DoubleBlue_Red]

Its time to focus on the product on the field and getting people into the stands sitting amidst each other and create some atmosphere around the game. Things can always expanded later on.

[Canary]

Excellent points, and welcome to the site.

Thanks. To put all my cards on the table, I'm a TFC season ticket holder. I sometimes complain about the ground share, but really I want to see the Argos succeed. I grew up on Canadian football and would way rather watch it than NFL these days. The Argos are important.

I totally get why people don't like losing tailgating. I'd probably complain too. But I do think Manning knows his stuff. I've seen TFC's communications and general approach to everything professionalize in the past 2-3 years. Quick example: when we won the last round of the Champions League, I had an email telling me how to get tickets for the next round before I got home. Used to take 24 hours or so to get that. A good starting point to building some loyalty to the team is to not be embarrassed about supporting it. That's where we were 5 years ago.

These guys are on the ball. Hearing their branding approach to connect to the Toronto Argonauts Rowing Club is really smart I think. Only two sports teams in Toronto can lay any claim to history: the Leafs and the Argos. Smart to use that. I think for the Argos to succeed, "football" thinking has to be done away with. Toronto is a different market from Calgary or Regina. The solutions will be different here.

All I'm saying is don't pass judgement on Manning this early after this one thing. I think he'll end up surprising you.

[shayman]

Only those who attend tailgate benefit from the existence of tailgate. .

Well .... It was a great promotional opportunity. There were frequently TV cameras there, and not from TSN - from other stations or shows that wanted to do something with interesting people in an interesting setting. The tailgates attracted attention.

[Treblecharger1]

Another thing people need to remember is if a concert is taking place at Ontario Place they cannot get the space to run an official tailgate the Argos had conflicts on the following nights:

July 7th: Beck
July 21st: Yanni
August 2nd: Kenny Chesney
August 18th CNE

And RBC Echo Beach and the Amphitheater will still have some more dates to announce. I would rather the Argos do something on a consistent basis. Those conflicts leave them with almost half the schedule not being able to run it anyway on their own. The shipyard when they had the strumbellas playing was amazing if the can activate that area like they did that night it will be fantastic. Or if you still want to tailgate let’s do it on our own like in every other football city :)

[R.J]

After yesterday's announcements, I thought I would check the reaction on this site.
(I stopped coming to this site last fall as I found the incessant whining by many posters here was actually ruining my enjoyment of the Argonauts and the CFL.)

I see that nothing has changed.
If I remember correctly, there was a lot of whining on this site about how the tailgating was going to be run when it was first set up. Beer prices would be too high...parking prices would be too high...lineups would be long if you couldn't bring your own beer....
Now, most of those people are crying about the scrapping of that same tailgating. :ohno:

A question for everyone here who is slamming MLSE for scrapping tailgating: Would you forgo the price reduction on your game tickets in order to retain tailgating?
No excuses about how MLSE has gobs of money that can be thrown around to "invest" in the Argos long term - So many people here are great at spending other peoples' money, yet those same people are screaming that they want a refund on the money for which they are receiving a credit for their already paid season tickets. Where is YOUR long-term investment in the team?

Talk is cheap.
That's the thing I find hilarious about this situation - fans crying about the owners investing money into the team, and yet just because the team will no longer financially support a "beer garden", the so called "fans" want to pull their support of the team lol.

Tailgating should and can be done by the fans, not sure why so many feel it's over and done with, just because the owners don't feel they should run a beer garden.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Argonauts biggest issues are #1. the perception of the team/league within the general masses, and #2. the fanbase itself, who are always looking for ways to abandon the team.

So let's assume that 1,000 people regularly attended tailgates. (I find that a bit hard to believe, but maybe it's true.) And let's imagine that over time, the tailgates might have expanded to hold 5,000. (I don't think the parking lot could accommodate that many, but let's say I'm wrong.) That's still 15,000 fewer people than they hope to put into the stadium consistently. Every paying customer benefits from the price decrease. Only those who attend tailgate benefit from the existence of tailgate. While it's possible people who would otherwise not go to a game would go to a tailgate and be converted into ticket-buying fans, the number seems more likely to be in the dozens than the thousands.
Zero chance there were 1,000 people regularly attending the tailgate/shipyard, 200-350 at best.

[shayman]

Here's something I don't get. People say "Tailgating should be spontaneous, the fans should just organize it." Sure. theoretically. But that never happened here.

Much respect to people who tried; I know (back at Skydome) over the past two decades there were lots of efforts to get something going that rarely attracted more than a handful of cars. (admittedly it didn't help that every parking lot was eventually turned into a condo.)

But once the Argos said "THIS is where tailgating is", it started to grow. Having someone with a little authority say "this is the spot, we'll make sure it's available" is important. Who's going to do that now?

[R.J]

In Calgary the fans brought back tailgating, in Edmonton fans run tailgating, likewise in Hamilton.

[Stevoman]

Hey Stevoman, maybe you and I can have our own non-team sanctioned tailgate this year. Your driveway or mine?

Yeah, that'd be great man! The only problem is that, this being the lower mainland, I don't have a driveway!

[Will]

Whatever your opinions are on this news--you can't argue the passion that Argo fans have one way or the other.

[paulwoods13]

Gee, thanks for the Economics 101 lesson there Karl Marx (or is it Goucho ?).

We must all bow down to the Argos saviour/master - the allmighty corporation- and worship whatever they say or do. "Shareholders" eh ? - LOL

It's funny -- you actually seem to be suggesting we should all bow down before those who are critical of any decision mgmt makes. For a guy who repeatedly bemoans the fact that his own dissenting opinions are supposedly not allowed, you seem to relish trying to stifle opinions that dissent with your own. It's also interesting that I'm apparently both a corporate shill and a Marxist.

[GregR]

A lot of good points here. A couple of things: As pointed out earlier, reduction in ticket prices does not automatically lead to no tailgating and vice versa - silly argument. I attended two tailgates last season and I can guarantee there were closer to 1000 people than 200. Maybe I just picked the biggest games by chance. I like the idea of tailgating being run by the fans. As long as the aggressive by-law officers from our wonderful City don't crack down on it like they tend to do. I am willing to give management a chance. I hope they end up packing that stadium.

[OV Argo]

It's funny -- you actually seem to be suggesting we should all bow down before those who are critical of any decision mgmt makes. For a guy who repeatedly bemoans the fact that his own dissenting opinions are supposedly not allowed, you seem to relish trying to stifle opinions that dissent with your own. It's also interesting that I'm apparently both a corporate shill and a Marxist.

You can be whatever you like chum - a Marxist, a capitalist, whatever.

I come to this forum to hear various opinions from Argo fans about all things Argos - sorry, not into bowing; you repeatedly try to defend pretty well anything & everything the current Argo "braintrust" does against complaints or dissenting opinions from some fans, and often totally discount those opinions - wether to do with on field football stuff, or the busine$$ of running the team - because they are not in line with what the expert football people or corporate suits business experts told you is "right". So noted.

[Will]

In Calgary the fans brought back tailgating, in Edmonton fans run tailgating, likewise in Hamilton.

You're absolutely right about Hamilton. The team AFAIK does not officially sanction the tailgating, but it does take place in parking lots that are officially sanctioned by the team. I have seen very few incidents (if any) in about 10 years of tailgating in Hamilton. The only time that the police gave people any hint of trouble was in 2010-2011 (and it was minor) was during the height of the stadium controversy.

I believe the concern in Toronto is that the people who need to look the other way will not look the other way when people try to set up their tailgates independently.

[R.J]

You're absolutely right about Hamilton. The team AFAIK does not officially sanction the tailgating, but it does take place in parking lots that are officially sanctioned by the team. I have seen very few incidents (if any) in about 10 years of tailgating in Hamilton. The only time that the police gave people any hint of trouble was in 2010-2011 (and it was minor) was during the height of the stadium controversy.

I believe the concern in Toronto is that the people who need to look the other way will not look the other way when people try to set up their tailgates independently.
Yeah, I recall some tightening up during the stadium controversy, but beyond that all I've ever seen is an Officer asking someone to pour their beer in a cup.

I don't see the cops or Exhibition Board having any issue with people paying for a parking spot, and setting up chairs, a barbeque or some games etc. The issue I suppose is the booze, which IMO the Province needs to amend their Prohibition era liquor laws, beyond that though I don't know. I don't know if it would be an issue or not, but I do know that if people take advantage and get too drunk, it would all end pretty quickly.

Again, I really don't understand why the fans who love tailgating can't come together in droves and organize their own. Put some effort in and try to speak with Bill Manning about at least naming one of the parking lots as the unofficial tailgating area.

[AngeloV]

After yesterday's announcements, I thought I would check the reaction on this site.
(I stopped coming to this site last fall as I found the incessant whining by many posters here was actually ruining my enjoyment of the Argonauts and the CFL.)

I see that nothing has changed.
If I remember correctly, there was a lot of whining on this site about how the tailgating was going to be run when it was first set up. Beer prices would be too high...parking prices would be too high...lineups would be long if you couldn't bring your own beer....
Now, most of those people are crying about the scrapping of that same tailgating. :ohno:

A question for everyone here who is slamming MLSE for scrapping tailgating: Would you forgo the price reduction on your game tickets in order to retain tailgating?
No excuses about how MLSE has gobs of money that can be thrown around to "invest" in the Argos long term - So many people here are great at spending other peoples' money, yet those same people are screaming that they want a refund on the money for which they are receiving a credit for their already paid season tickets. Where is YOUR long-term investment in the team?

Talk is cheap.

Great post.

[AngeloV]

This. People's proclivity for spending the money of for-profit enterprises owned by someone other than themselves knows no bounds. Yes, MLSE has massive revenues. It is also in the business of making profit for its shareholders, and in fact has a fiduciary obligation to maximize their return on investment. That's capitalism for you.

Agreed. Argos also likely have the highest overall payroll in the league when you factor what they are paying Popp and their coaching staff, yet they are getting the least revenue from ticket sales. I don't get the constant complaining on here about the ownership.

[Will]

Agreed. Argos also likely have the highest overall payroll in the league when you factor what they are paying Popp and their coaching staff, yet they are getting the least revenue from ticket sales. I don't get the constant complaining on here about the ownership.

There is a natural distrust of MLSE among some.

[AngeloV]

There is a natural distrust of MLSE among some.

Yeah--the paranoid.

[Will]

Yeah--the paranoid.

I don't view it as paranoid.

I view it was the Toronto Maple Leafs being one of the more polarizing teams in professional sport.

That being said, I have seen a few (no means do they constitute the majority) bringing the Rogers conspiracy into play.

[R.J]

Agreed. Argos also likely have the highest overall payroll in the league when you factor what they are paying Popp and their coaching staff, yet they are getting the least revenue from ticket sales. I don't get the constant complaining on here about the ownership.
Argos are one of the CFL's highest spending teams (if not thee highest) in terms of football ops(stark contract from the Cynamon/Sokowlski era and Braley era), and from what I've been told: the budget increased for 2018.

There is a natural distrust of MLSE among some.
As I stated previously, MLSE is no longer run by Richard Peddie nor owned by the Teachers Pension Fund - I think some seem to overlook that part. MLSE teams (even the Marlies) have been more competitive since Bell and Rogers bought majority share.

[paulwoods13]

I come to this forum to hear various opinions from Argo fans about all things Argos - sorry, not into bowing; you repeatedly try to defend pretty well anything & everything the current Argo "braintrust" does against complaints or dissenting opinions from some fans, and often totally discount those opinions - wether to do with on field football stuff, or the busine$$ of running the team - because they are not in line with what the expert football people or corporate suits business experts told you is "right". So noted.

Oh, I see -- you come to hear various opinions, but aren't interested in hearing opinions contrary to yours. Good to know.

[R.J]

Didn't know if I should lump this in with one of the existing threads or a separate one, in either case a good read.
https://www.tsn.ca/talent/mlse-unveils-its-vision-for-the-argonauts-1.1052451

[PullTogether73]

You can be whatever you like chum - a Marxist, a capitalist, whatever.

I come to this forum to hear various opinions from Argo fans about all things Argos - sorry, not into bowing; you repeatedly try to defend pretty well anything & everything the current Argo "braintrust" does against complaints or dissenting opinions from some fans, and often totally discount those opinions - wether to do with on field football stuff, or the busine$$ of running the team - because they are not in line with what the expert football people or corporate suits business experts told you is "right". So noted.

As I said earlier, nothing here has changed.:sick:

Well, at least you are consistent in your unwavering criticism of anything done by ownership/management.
"The Man" can never be right because he is "The Man" - correct?:ohno:

[Rich]

Zero chance there were 1,000 people regularly attending the tailgate/shipyard, 200-350 at best.

You don't know what you're talking about. There was easily over 2,000 people at the last tailgate, probably closer to 3,000. It very well may be that the tailgating thing was just starting to catch on and might have really taken off this year.

[Rich]

Another thing people need to remember is if a concert is taking place at Ontario Place they cannot get the space to run an official tailgate the Argos had conflicts on the following nights:

July 7th: Beck
July 21st: Yanni
August 2nd: Kenny Chesney
August 18th CNE

And RBC Echo Beach and the Amphitheater will still have some more dates to announce. I would rather the Argos do something on a consistent basis. Those conflicts leave them with almost half the schedule not being able to run it anyway on their own.

The Ontario Place lot could never be a long-term location for tailgating anyway. Ontario Place is going to be redeveloped over the next few years and no matter what they end up putting in there, it's not likely they'd ever have a huge empty parking lot available.

[R.J]

You don't know what you're talking about. There was easily over 2,000 people at the last tailgate, probably closer to 3,000. It very well may be that the tailgating thing was just starting to catch on and might have really taken off this year.
The East Final where there was just under 25,000 for the the game ?
What about the games that averaged between 12-15 thousand, still 2-3,000 ?

For those claiming that there was 1,000 or over for regular season tailgates, do you have photographic proof ?

[Rich]

The East Final where there was just under 25,000 for the the game ?
What about the games that averaged between 12-15 thousand, still 2-3,000 ?


If there's more people at the game there will be more people at the tailgate. What's your point?

[R.J]

If there's more people at the game there will be more people at the tailgate. What's your point?
Paul's statement which I quoted was: "So let's assume that 1,000 people regularly attended tailgates", to which I replied 200-350 "regularly". Neither one of us stated it's never gone over that number on a one game basis, like the East Final as you brought up.

[Rich]

Paul's statement which I quoted was: "So let's assume that 1,000 people regularly attended tailgates", to which I replied 200-350 "regularly". Neither one of us stated it's never gone over that number on a one game basis, like the East Final as you brought up.

If the Argos drew 25,000 to every game it is not unreasonable to assume that the tailgates would have regularly attracted 2-3,000 people.

[R.J]

If the Argos drew 25,000 to every game it is not unreasonable to assume that the tailgates would have regularly attracted 2-3,000 people.
And your point is ?

[mchesher03]

Wow this one is really off the rails.

My 2 cents: yes I’m disappointed there’s no more tailgates but I totally see why they stopped doing it. The team was probably paying a pretty penny to operate these tailgates and I’d struggle to say they were having an impact on attendance, it was mainly a couple hundred of the “die hards” who’d be at these games come hell or high water.

They were great fun but such is life, they weren’t the be all and end all of the game day experience.

[Rich]

And your point is ?

It shouldn't be so hard to understand that low tailgate attendance was directly related to low game attendance, and not necessarily a reflection of the tailgates' worthiness or popularity.

[Neely2005]

After yesterday's announcements, I thought I would check the reaction on this site.
(I stopped coming to this site last fall as I found the incessant whining by many posters here was actually ruining my enjoyment of the Argonauts and the CFL.)

I see that nothing has changed.
If I remember correctly, there was a lot of whining on this site about how the tailgating was going to be run when it was first set up. Beer prices would be too high...parking prices would be too high...lineups would be long if you couldn't bring your own beer....
Now, most of those people are crying about the scrapping of that same tailgating. :ohno:

A question for everyone here who is slamming MLSE for scrapping tailgating: Would you forgo the price reduction on your game tickets in order to retain tailgating?
No excuses about how MLSE has gobs of money that can be thrown around to "invest" in the Argos long term - So many people here are great at spending other peoples' money, yet those same people are screaming that they want a refund on the money for which they are receiving a credit for their already paid season tickets. Where is YOUR long-term investment in the team?

Talk is cheap.

Yes I would forego my price reduction in favour of keeping Tailgating. I know I'm in the minority but after talking to other season ticket holders I'm certainly not alone.

[Neely2005]

So let's assume that 1,000 people regularly attended tailgates. (I find that a bit hard to believe, but maybe it's true.) And let's imagine that over time, the tailgates might have expanded to hold 5,000. (I don't think the parking lot could accommodate that many, but let's say I'm wrong.) That's still 15,000 fewer people than they hope to put into the stadium consistently. Every paying customer benefits from the price decrease. Only those who attend tailgate benefit from the existence of tailgate. While it's possible people who would otherwise not go to a game would go to a tailgate and be converted into ticket-buying fans, the number seems more likely to be in the dozens than the thousands.

Most cars at the Tailgate had multiple people, so 1 car X 4 people. More people than parking spots.

[paulwoods13]

It shouldn't be so hard to understand that low tailgate attendance was directly related to low game attendance, and not necessarily a reflection of the tailgates' worthiness or popularity.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the tailgates were enjoyed by those who attended (even though it was not a "true" -- i.e. BYOB, little regulation, etc. -- tailgate experience). But did it do any more than create a really fun experience for a few hundred to several hundred spectators, most of whom would likely go to the games anyway? Did it drive business success? The answer seems to be No, based on Manning's comments. Might it have driven business success (by bringing in new fans, who liked it so much they became regulars) if it had been kept alive this year and in the future? Maybe -- we really have no way of knowing. We do know that the physical setup is not terribly conducive to a great (and consistent) tailgate experience. The tailgate lot is far from the stadium and is unavailable at least 45% of the time this season.

[Neely2005]

That's the thing I find hilarious about this situation - fans crying about the owners investing money into the team, and yet just because the team will no longer financially support a "beer garden", the so called "fans" want to pull their support of the team lol.

Tailgating should and can be done by the fans, not sure why so many feel it's over and done with, just because the owners don't feel they should run a beer garden.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Argonauts biggest issues are #1. the perception of the team/league within the general masses, and #2. the fanbase itself, who are always looking for ways to abandon the team.

Zero chance there were 1,000 people regularly attending the tailgate/shipyard, 200-350 at best.

The weekend Tailgates easily had over 1000 people. Aside from the Grey Cup Tailgate the East Final Tailgate was the biggest one yet.

[paulwoods13]

Most cars at the Tailgate had multiple people, so 1 car X 4 people. More people than parking spots.

Right, so 5,000 people would mean at least 1,250 parking spots. Are there that many spots in that lot?

[Neely2005]

Right, so 5,000 people would mean at least 1,250 parking spots. Are there that many spots in that lot?

There are multiple parking lots there and yes I believe there are enough parkin spots to accommodate 1250 cars.

You can see a parking map here:

www.ontarioplace.com/en/visit-us/parking

(Scroll down)

[Harpastum]

Sure - I'll miss the fun of tailgating - but it wasn't the sole reason I ever went to an Argo game.
And you can bet MLSE knows they will need more than just the game itself to draw in new fans - & will be providing a good pregame experience to replace this.
So I'm gonna be patient & give them this season to show me their new vision.

[R.J]

http://www.ontarioplace.com/sites/default/files/13-000%20Parking%20Lots%20Map.pdf

752 parking spots where the official tailgate/shipyard was. Considering how much space the shipyard took, and that on most games the lot wasn't even half full at best (including the Shipyard), I have a real hard time believing that the Shipyard/Tailgate averaged over 1,000 attendees on the regular. If I'm wrong, no worries, but I'd at least like to see some proof.

[AngeloV]

You don't know what you're talking about. There was easily over 2,000 people at the last tailgate, probably closer to 3,000. It very well may be that the tailgating thing was just starting to catch on and might have really taken off this year.

Disagree. The tailgate at the first BMO game in 2016 was also huge. It's the size of the crowd that drives how big the tailgate is. Not the other way around. My point, fans aren't just going to go to a football game because of the tailgate. You have to get them interested in going to the game first. The tailgate is an added bonus to those that choose to partake.

[R.J]

Disagree. The tailgate at the first BMO game in 2016 was also huge. It's the size of the crowd that drives how big the tailgate is. Not the other way around. My point, fans aren't just going to go to a football game because of the tailgate. You have to get them interested in going to the game first. The tailgate is an added bonus to those that choose to partake.
Of which they can still continue to do so.

[Neely2005]

You're absolutely right about Hamilton. The team AFAIK does not officially sanction the tailgating, but it does take place in parking lots that are officially sanctioned by the team. I have seen very few incidents (if any) in about 10 years of tailgating in Hamilton. The only time that the police gave people any hint of trouble was in 2010-2011 (and it was minor) was during the height of the stadium controversy.

I believe the concern in Toronto is that the people who need to look the other way will not look the other way when people try to set up their tailgates independently.

IIRC the Toronto Police shut down TFC fans tailgating before games at BMO Field a few years ago. I think Tbone may have even posted about it on this message board.

[BATKINSON001]

I was quite mad when i heard about naylors tweets about the loss of the tailgate, but having had time to think about things and now that we have official word from the argos via email regarding that and the surprise price reductions... I am just sad and disappointing... I used the tailgates to meetup with my DBO people, and it was fun, now we will just go back to meeting up at a pub or something in the village, probably cheaper too.

[OV Argo]

Oh, I see -- you come to hear various opinions, but aren't interested in hearing opinions contrary to yours. Good to know.

You DON'T know, do you? ;o)


I see some fans really liked the tailgates and are annoyed and disappointed that they were taken away. And some are saying they helped build interest in the team and provided game day atmosphere that could help build some Argo momentum.

Others could care less sort of and are glad for a ticket price reduction instead. The team will do just fine without the team led tailgates, hopefully.

We'll put you down for - the corporation that runs the Argos are genius "businessmen" experts who have an obligation to their "shareholders" and everything they do is righeous and in pursuit of the holy bottom-line; so STFU you know nothing little fans - how dare you question the inscrutable experts. That's good to know.

[Neely2005]

http://www.ontarioplace.com/sites/default/files/13-000%20Parking%20Lots%20Map.pdf

752 parking spots where the official tailgate/shipyard was. Considering how much space the shipyard took, and that on most games the lot wasn't even half full at best (including the Shipyard), I have a real hard time believing that the Shipyard/Tailgate averaged over 1,000 attendees on the regular. If I'm wrong, no worries, but I'd at least like to see some proof.

As I said earlier there were more people than cars. I estimate the last Tailgate was about 3000 people.

[OV Argo]

As I said earlier, nothing here has changed.:sick:

Well, at least you are consistent in your unwavering criticism of anything done by ownership/management.
"The Man" can never be right because he is "The Man" - correct?:ohno:


Dave Mann was an all-time great Argo IMO; superb punter and played other positions back in the day when players often had to be more versatile. Mann was good in my books.

[R.J]

As I said earlier there were more people than cars. I estimate the last Tailgate was about 3000 people.
That's fine, again though there was just under 25,000 who attended the game. Season average was under 14,000, the math just doesn't add up. And I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for proof over 1,000+ on average.

[Neely2005]

Of which they can still continue to do so.

Until they get to big and the Toronto Police shut them down. Constantly looking over your shoulder for police isn't exactly conducive to a fun time.

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Quite the reaction via Twitter yesterday to <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TorontoArgos</a> decision to end tailgating, which was foundation of marketing 2 years ago leading up to to BMO move. Understand it was popular with many fans but based on attendance — less than 14K per game — it was not helping the gate.</p>&mdash; David William Naylor (@TSNDaveNaylor) <a href="https://twitter.com/TSNDaveNaylor/status/983727435362562048?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 10, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tailgating was intended to attract a younger demo to <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TorontoArgos</a> games but in fact appeared to be attended mostly by traditional (older) Argo fans, rather than growing the fan base. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CFL</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Argos</a></p>&mdash; David William Naylor (@TSNDaveNaylor) <a href="https://twitter.com/TSNDaveNaylor/status/983727977606328321?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 10, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Neely2005]

That's fine, again though there was just under 25,000 who attended the game. Season average was under 14,000, the math just doesn't add up. And I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for proof over 1,000+ on average.

I said the Weekend Tailgates were easily over 1000 people. Either you believe me or you don't because I certainly don't have ariel photographs to prove it.

[R.J]

Until they get to big and the Toronto Police shut them down. Constantly looking over your shoulder for police isn't exactly conducive to a fun time.
Only becomes a problem if there are too many drunks causing problems. 5,000+ barbecuing, sitting out in the sun, and playing games, won't be much of an issue in my estimation.

[paulwoods13]

We'll put you down for - the corporation that runs the Argos are genius "businessmen" experts who have an obligation to their "shareholders" and everything they do is righeous and in pursuit of the holy bottom-line; so STFU you know nothing little fans - how dare you question the inscrutable experts. That's good to know.

Yeah, you will put me down. That's one thing on which we can agree.

[Neely2005]

Only becomes a problem if there are too many drunks causing problems. 5,000+ barbecuing, sitting out in the sun, and playing games, won't be much of an issue in my estimation.

Yet the Toronto Police shutdown small TFC pregame gatherings @ the BMO Field parking lots a few years ago.

[AngeloV]

Yet the Toronto Police shutdown small TFC pregame gatherings @ the BMO Field parking lots a few years ago.

Must you always have to get the last word in on everything? You said your piece as has RJ. Let it go.

[Neely2005]

Must you always have to get the last word in on everything? You said your piece as has RJ. Let it go.

Thanks but I'll post as I see fit. And unlike you I won't resort to name calling if someone has a different opinion than me.

[AngeloV]

Thanks but I'll post as I see fit. And unlike you I won't resort to name calling if someone has a different opinion than me.

Good for you. I think it's been a long time since I did that, but carry on. Feel free to research. I know you love doing that.

[argofan81]

Only becomes a problem if there are too many drunks causing problems. 5,000+ barbecuing, sitting out in the sun, and playing games, won't be much of an issue in my estimation.

Until you get the cop who has had a bad day (or whatever the reason) and decides to hand out tickets for having open alcohol in public -- which according to the law, he is entitled to do so. I for one am not willing to risk having a citation on my record because I hoped that the cops would turn a blind eye. Professionally, that could ruin my career. I liked having a legal option to enjoy a few beverages and tailgate (i.e. bring my own vehicle, food, etc., etc.) should I choose to do so.


The bottom line is those that have partaken in the tailgate in the past are going to be more upset with its cessation than those that didn't. And at the end of the day, I think more people are upset because there was no public consultation prior to the decision being made.

[Neely2005]

Good for you. I think it's been a long time since I did that, but carry on. Feel free to research. I know you love doing that.

No need to research, I remember yesterday.


Pretty stupid comment considering the soccer team just won their league championship.

[Neely2005]

Until you get the cop who has had a bad day (or whatever the reason) and decides to hand out tickets for having open alcohol in public -- which according to the law, he is entitled to do so. I for one am not willing to risk having a citation on my record because I hoped that the cops would turn a blind eye. Professionally, that could ruin my career. I liked having a legal option to enjoy a few beverages and tailgate (i.e. bring my own vehicle, food, etc., etc.) should I choose to do so.


The bottom line is those that have partaken in the tailgate in the past are going to be more upset with its cessation than those that didn't. And at the end of the day, I think more people are upset because there was no public consultation prior to the decision being made.

Same for us. Just not worth the potential headaches of Ontario's antiquated liquor laws.

[AngeloV]

No need to research, I remember yesterday.

Didn't call you stupid. Just the comment.

[Ron]

Shame the tailgating lost out. But whatever the team owners need to do to keep this club viable for decades to come I am all for. If that means a small number of fans get put out then too bad. Better to put those resources elsewhere.

[Flutie]

As I said earlier there were more people than cars. I estimate the last Tailgate was about 3000 people.

Yes at the tail gate area at the far end of Ontario Place there were more people than cars but the lot in front of BMO was always full and plenty of cars on the other end of Ontario Place where we parked.

So what's wrong with Argo fans setting up their own tail gate at the Ontario Place lot??? are they afraid the police will raid it?
It just seems so typically Canadian that we expect the authorities in this case the "team" to organize a tail gate, compare that to the NFL or NCAA where fans set up their own tail gates in the stadium parking lots.

[matthew]

These Naylor follow up posts are interesting.

On the first one, he may be right, maybe it was having a marginal effect on attendance but I still feel it was something to grow.

On the second point, I agree, it was largely the old guard and the fanboy/girls that were were coming so maybe it was not having the desired effect. I am not justifying the cancellation as I loved the experience. In fact, I was not hot on the idea and didn't care about tailgating when it first started by now I find myself lamenting its demise.

Personally I think the tailgate was missing 2 keys things:

1. A real kids area. One was starting to develop towards the end but it wasn't robust enough to really attract families to a cool environment.
2. Strong social media outreach. Why not get a staffer to go around with a celebrity alumni player AND blog them out from the event real time. I know alumni were coming around but don't think they were doing real time twitter or facebook posts.

They could have also come around and had sit down interviews with 4-5 tailgaters a game to let them tell their stories to put that human touch on the team and with every team video that they put out last year which were good, have a team vid / fan vid combo every week. For the casual visitor to the site when they see that stuff and realize that its as much about the fan as it is the team, people might be motivated to come on board.

Seems to me that they had a content goldmine that they could have leveraged but all I ever experienced was staff coming around and checking out what we were cooking versus what the tailgate really meant to the people that came.



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[R.J]

Shame the tailgating lost out. But whatever the team owners need to do to keep this club viable for decades to come I am all for. If that means a small number of fans get put out then too bad. Better to put those resources elsewhere.
By all accounts here, around barely 10% of the in stadium attendance went to the tailgates, yet it was a"success", and it was "growing". Boggles my mind.

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">ARGOS tailgaters... you can still tailgate. All the organization said was they would not be funding and setting up the tailgate anymore due to costs. You can still pull out your bbq, toss a football or play tailgate games. If you drink, strongly suggest to do it in a plastic cup.</p>&mdash; ARRR CiTY ARRR TEAM (@GIVENS38) <a href="https://twitter.com/GIVENS38/status/983724042862637056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 10, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We tailgated for years before the tailgating was set up by Ontario place. Just be respectful and smart. Clean up your mess and be responsible. All common sense factors. Enjoy and see you there.</p>&mdash; ARRR CiTY ARRR TEAM (@GIVENS38) <a href="https://twitter.com/GIVENS38/status/983724568148836352?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 10, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Funny thing about common sense is that nowadays it's not too common.

[argolio]

Choice #1: subsidize tailgates where less than 5% of fans participate
Choice #2: don't subsidize tailgates and pay less for season tickets

I'm taking door #2.

[OV Argo]

Choice #1: subsidize tailgates where less than 5% of fans participate
Choice #2: don't subsidize tailgates and pay less for season tickets

I'm taking door #2.

And let's not forget, this is a really financially struggling ownership involved with the Argos, and the huge/astronomical costs of helping run an Argo tailgate just might bankrupt them.

[Neely2005]

Yes at the tail gate area at the far end of Ontario Place there were more people than cars but the lot in front of BMO was always full and plenty of cars on the other end of Ontario Place where we parked.

So what's wrong with Argo fans setting up their own tail gate at the Ontario Place lot??? are they afraid the police will raid it?
It just seems so typically Canadian that we expect the authorities in this case the "team" to organize a tail gate, compare that to the NFL or NCAA where fans set up their own tail gates in the stadium parking lots.

Yes that's the concern, especially since they shutdown the small TFC Tailgates a few years ago.


Same for us. Just not worth the potential headaches of Ontario's antiquated liquor laws.

[ArgofanIan]

100 percent agree with Neely... not a chance in the world this is worth the risk... who knows what the fine would be and how much.

[R.J]

You guys realize that no one is forcing you to bring or drink booze, right ?

[argofan81]

You guys realize that no one is forcing you to bring or drink booze, right ?

You are correct, no one is forcing bringing/drinking booze but the fact remains that what is being taken away is a tailgate where drinking was legal. For those of us who do drink and wish to do so while partaking in other tailgate activities, we no longer have a legal option to do so. We do not live in a city where the cops simply turn a blind eye (even when the behaviour is not disorderly). Judge me all you want, but to me tailgating involves having a beer or two.

[argolio]

And let's not forget, this is a really financially struggling ownership involved with the Argos, and the huge/astronomical costs of helping run an Argo tailgate just might bankrupt them.We won't forget.

[PullTogether73]

And let's not forget, this is a really financially struggling ownership involved with the Argos, and the huge/astronomical costs of helping run an Argo tailgate just might bankrupt them.

Still spending other peoples' money as you see fit I see.

I'm sure MLSE bought the Argos to suck money from the profitable teams.
Good business plan.
:sick:

[gilthethrill]

I feel for those loyal fans who enjoyed the now defunct tailgate. I have decided with the ST price reduction to upgrade and purchase another ST.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

Its true - there was tailgating at the Skydome before Argo games, for a while on a construction lot and also another parking lot near the Dome. Nothing on the scale of the last two years tho.

Also, in the early TFC years there was tailgating in the parking lot directly adjacent BMO field.

Where there's a will there's a way.

[Will]

Yep, used to be in a lot at Simcoe/Bremner for a few years (Lake "G"). Keith Pelley showed up a few times when it was there. It then moved to the paved lot pretty well across the street for a few years. Never had any issues there.

[RB957]

I attended every Tailgate except for last seasons preseason game. They were definitely growing by a noticeable amount. Aside from the Grey Cup Tailgate the last one was the biggest one yet.


How many attendees, roughly? And when you say you brought a lot of different people to the tailgates, how many?


My son and I are STH's. Although we could not tailgate for every game, on those dates that we did, we always invited friends to join us and I used our extra free tickets or bought extra tickets to introduce those friends to the CFL experience. Without exception, everyone enjoyed it and had a great time. At the end, two of my friends ended up going in on a pair of season's tickets. So that would count as a success. But all of the others, as much as they said to my face that they would come back, did not. So while I am disappointed in this decision by the team, I can understand it. I always thought it must be costing the team a lot of money to run, and while the tailgating numbers may have been growing, perhaps they weren't growing fast enough. The size of the area allotted to it shrunk from the first year to the second, if I am not mistaken. In the final analysis, I don't think that tailgating itself is the "thing" that is going to resurrect fan interest. I just hope that whatever they are coming up with at the new "Shipyard" generates some pre-game excitement. Also, I wish i hadn't just gone out and bought a new portable grill! Good thing I hadn't ordered our new tent yet, lol.

[OV Argo]

Still spending other peoples' money as you see fit I see.

I'm sure MLSE bought the Argos to suck money from the profitable teams.
Good business plan.
:sick:

So tell us, why did MLSE buy the Argos ?

[AngeloV]

I feel for those loyal fans who enjoyed the now defunct tailgate. I have decided with the ST price reduction to upgrade and purchase another ST.

That's the spirit. I'm keeping the credit in my account and purchasing additional tickets to games for friends of mine.

[AngeloV]

My son and I are STH's. Although we could not tailgate for every game, on those dates that we did, we always invited friends to join us and I used our extra free tickets or bought extra tickets to introduce those friends to the CFL experience. Without exception, everyone enjoyed it and had a great time. At the end, two of my friends ended up going in on a pair of season's tickets. So that would count as a success. But all of the others, as much as they said to my face that they would come back, did not. So while I am disappointed in this decision by the team, I can understand it. I always thought it must be costing the team a lot of money to run, and while the tailgating numbers may have been growing, perhaps they weren't growing fast enough. The size of the area allotted to it shrunk from the first year to the second, if I am not mistaken. In the final analysis, I don't think that tailgating itself is the "thing" that is going to resurrect fan interest. I just hope that whatever they are coming up with at the new "Shipyard" generates some pre-game excitement. Also, I wish i hadn't just gone out and bought a new portable grill! Good thing I hadn't ordered our new tent yet, lol.

I agree that it isn't going to be the "thing" to generate fan interest. Lower ticket prices and an entertaining team will.

[AngeloV]

So tell us, why did MLSE buy the Argos ?

I'm guessing because they want to own all the pro sports teams in the city. Wouldn't be the least surprised if the Blue Jays are next, but because of the price tag, that may be a little more complicated.

[Flutie]

And let's not forget, this is a really financially struggling ownership involved with the Argos, and the huge/astronomical costs of helping run an Argo tailgate just might bankrupt them.

But WHY do you want MLSE to run a fan tailgate and supply the beer? as other people have pointed out, it is fans that organized and ran their own tailgate parties in the past. Go to Buffalo and any other NFL stadium and people are partying in the parking lots, bringing their own beer and making their own entertainment, they are not complaining that the owners aren't organizing it and supplying cheap beer.

[gilthethrill]

That's the spirit. I'm keeping the credit in my account and purchasing additional tickets to games for friends of mine.

Av I estimate you will be filling up our section completely if you buy tickets for just a few of your friends.

[AngeloV]

Av I estimate you will be filling up our section completely if you buy tickets for just a few of your friends.

HAHAHAHA. You wouldn't know that by reading my battles on here, that's for sure.

[GregR]

If the fans start their own tailgate and there is booze, there is NO WAY it won't be shut down. This is Toronto.

[Treblecharger1]

I just picked up 2 extra seasons @$159 it is a steal. If I don't use them I will donate them to charity.

[wewantthecup]

How are people getting refunds? I was just told that no one will be getting refunds?

[OV Argo]

But WHY do you want MLSE to run a fan tailgate and supply the beer? as other people have pointed out, it is fans that organized and ran their own tailgate parties in the past. Go to Buffalo and any other NFL stadium and people are partying in the parking lots, bringing their own beer and making their own entertainment, they are not complaining that the owners aren't organizing it and supplying cheap beer.

So, why did the current Argo braintrust decide to participate in and run the tailgate in the first place? Maybe because they were trying to find ways to create more interest and better game day experience for Argo fans - existing ones and potential new ones? Judging from a lot of comments I've read from those who attended - it was a fun & popular event, at least to some extent, and maybe attracted some new type fans who like that kind of game day experience to bring them to the stadium.

So now some soccer guy / bean-counter decides to cancel the tailgate - I guess for "bottom line" reasons and because it was just soooo incredibly taxing & draining on the cash strapped corporation in charge of the Argos ? And you want me to accept this as some sort of unchallengeable, brilliant business decision ? Sorry - no can do; you and others are free though to accept as right, anything & everything the current ownership does, of course.

[Rich]

I heard a rumour that there is a lawsuit currently pending over an injury sustained at a tailgate last year. If this is true then it is THE reason the tailgates were cancelled.

[argolio]

I'm guessing because they want to own all the pro sports teams in the city. Wouldn't be the least surprised if the Blue Jays are next, but because of the price tag, that may be a little more complicated.I think the big obstacle/elephant in the room is a new stadium, not the price tag. The Jays aren't getting a $25M gift next time.

[PullTogether73]

So, why did the current Argo braintrust decide to participate in and run the tailgate in the first place? Maybe because they were trying to find ways to create more interest and better game day experience for Argo fans - existing ones and potential new ones? Judging from a lot of comments I've read from those who attended - it was a fun & popular event, at least to some extent, and maybe attracted some new type fans who like that kind of game day experience to bring them to the stadium.

So now some soccer guy / bean-counter decides to cancel the tailgate - I guess for "bottom line" reasons and because it was just soooo incredibly taxing & draining on the cash strapped corporation in charge of the Argos ? And you want me to accept this as some sort of unchallengeable, brilliant business decision ? Sorry - no can do; you and others are free though to accept as right, anything & everything the current ownership does, of course.

Sigh.
Where to start?

"So, why did the current Argo braintrust decide to participate in and run the tailgate in the first place? Maybe because they were trying to find ways to create more interest and better game day experience for Argo fans - existing ones and potential new ones?"
Yes. But the current Argo braintrust is not the same as the one that instituted tailgating. Don't confuse owners with day-to-day managers.

"Judging from a lot of comments I've read from those who attended - it was a fun & popular event, at least to some extent, and maybe attracted some new type fans who like that kind of game day experience to bring them to the stadium."
The key word here is "maybe". Maybe the tailgate attracted existing ticket buyers AND curious newcomers. But maybe those newcomers did not become regular ticket purchasers, which was at least part of the goal of the tailgate. We may never know. MLSE may not know for sure either, but since nominal attendance dropped at BMO Field versus what was recorded at Rogers Centre (both numbers are suspect probably), management seems to have deemed the benefit outweighed by the cost and prefers to invest in lower ticket prices over the tailgate.

"So now some soccer guy / bean-counter decides to cancel the tailgate - I guess for "bottom line" reasons and because it was just soooo incredibly taxing & draining on the cash strapped corporation in charge of the Argos ?"
Well, I've already stated that you seem quite willing to spend other peoples' money. While there is the mantra that one has to spend money to make money, there is also the mantra that throwing money at a problem won't fix it. Better allocation of existing funds is always desired before borrowing elsewhere. It seems to me that the Argos have chosen to allocate funds to lower ticket prices in the hope that this will draw more ticket buyers than tailgating. Since attendance is lower now than when there was no formal tailgating at Rogers Centre, this seems like a reasonable move imo.

"And you want me to accept this as some sort of unchallengeable, brilliant business decision ? Sorry - no can do; you and others are free though to accept as right, anything & everything the current ownership does, of course."
You, and many others who have done so, are free to challenge any and all management decisions. I didn't see anyone say otherwise. However, as management has far more knowledge of the situation than any of we outsiders, I will listen to their explanations of their actions and question only what I can. None of us have knowledge of the team's/ownership's budget, goals, reasons for buying the team, etc. We can only speculate and judge based on insufficient information. If the owners do not wish to take funds from the other teams in their portfolio, why should we tell them otherwise? I'm pretty sure fans of those teams would be pissed if there were less funds for them to spend because the Argos pilfered a chunk of it. I know I wouldn't be thrilled to hear that TFC got some Argo money to help them out (if the Argos ever become profitable).

[AngeloV]

Sigh.
Where to start?

"So, why did the current Argo braintrust decide to participate in and run the tailgate in the first place? Maybe because they were trying to find ways to create more interest and better game day experience for Argo fans - existing ones and potential new ones?"
Yes. But the current Argo braintrust is not the same as the one that instituted tailgating. Don't confuse owners with day-to-day managers.

"Judging from a lot of comments I've read from those who attended - it was a fun & popular event, at least to some extent, and maybe attracted some new type fans who like that kind of game day experience to bring them to the stadium."
The key word here is "maybe". Maybe the tailgate attracted existing ticket buyers AND curious newcomers. But maybe those newcomers did not become regular ticket purchasers, which was at least part of the goal of the tailgate. We may never know. MLSE may not know for sure either, but since nominal attendance dropped at BMO Field versus what was recorded at Rogers Centre (both numbers are suspect probably), management seems to have deemed the benefit outweighed by the cost and prefers to invest in lower ticket prices over the tailgate.

"So now some soccer guy / bean-counter decides to cancel the tailgate - I guess for "bottom line" reasons and because it was just soooo incredibly taxing & draining on the cash strapped corporation in charge of the Argos ?"
Well, I've already stated that you seem quite willing to spend other peoples' money. While there is the mantra that one has to spend money to make money, there is also the mantra that throwing money at a problem won't fix it. Better allocation of existing funds is always desired before borrowing elsewhere. It seems to me that the Argos have chosen to allocate funds to lower ticket prices in the hope that this will draw more ticket buyers than tailgating. Since attendance is lower now than when there was no formal tailgating at Rogers Centre, this seems like a reasonable move imo.

"And you want me to accept this as some sort of unchallengeable, brilliant business decision ? Sorry - no can do; you and others are free though to accept as right, anything & everything the current ownership does, of course."
You, and many others who have done so, are free to challenge any and all management decisions. I didn't see anyone say otherwise. However, as management has far more knowledge of the situation than any of we outsiders, I will listen to their explanations of their actions and question only what I can. None of us have knowledge of the team's/ownership's budget, goals, reasons for buying the team, etc. We can only speculate and judge based on insufficient information. If the owners do not wish to take funds from the other teams in their portfolio, why should we tell them otherwise? I'm pretty sure fans of those teams would be pissed if there were less funds for them to spend because the Argos pilfered a chunk of it. I know I wouldn't be thrilled to hear that TFC got some Argo money to help them out (if the Argos ever become profitable).

I'm glad you decided to come back to the forum. Well thought out rebuttal.

[ArgofanIan]

So, why did the current Argo braintrust decide to participate in and run the tailgate in the first place? Maybe because they were trying to find ways to create more interest and better game day experience for Argo fans - existing ones and potential new ones? Judging from a lot of comments I've read from those who attended - it was a fun & popular event, at least to some extent, and maybe attracted some new type fans who like that kind of game day experience to bring them to the stadium.

So now some soccer guy / bean-counter decides to cancel the tailgate - I guess for "bottom line" reasons and because it was just soooo incredibly taxing & draining on the cash strapped corporation in charge of the Argos ? And you want me to accept this as some sort of unchallengeable, brilliant business decision ? Sorry - no can do; you and others are free though to accept as right, anything & everything the current ownership does, of course.

Great post OV...my feelings exactly on TFC Manning

[gilthethrill]

Was able to upgrade and purchase an additional ST this morning and still have $31.00 credit on my account. June just got closer for me today.

Hopefully by upgrading some of the rifraf that occupied my section in past seasons will have moved on as well...😆

[AngeloV]

Was able to upgrade and purchase an additional ST this morning and still have $31.00 credit on my account. June just got closer for me today.

Hopefully by upgrading some of the rifraf that occupied my section in past seasons will have moved on as well...😆

I don't like this. Last season I was 1 row above you. Now you are 1 row above me. Head on a swivel time.

[Will]

I seem to be chopped liver according to the Argos!

[gilthethrill]

I don't like this. Last season I was 1 row above you. Now you are 1 row above me. Head on a swivel time.

That's right....argolio is going to get his comeuppins.

[dmont]

Choice #1: subsidize tailgates where less than 5% of fans participate
Choice #2: don't subsidize tailgates and pay less for season tickets

I'm taking door #2.

I'll say it one more time: This. Is. A. False. Choice. MLSE didn't have to choose one or the other. Regardless of what happened with the tailgate, it is a good business decision to lower the price point of tickets so they at least match that of TFC. How could overpriced tickets, that suppressed the demand, be subsidizing the tailgate?? Lowering the price will probably increase demand and RAISE revenue in the long run. I personally think investing in and growing the tailgate would have raised revenue in the long run too. That would make both lowering prices and supporting the tailgate independent, sound business decisions. No tradeoff between the two!

That also eviscerates PullTogether's sanctimonious "you sure like spending other peoples' money" rebuttal. I don't support the tailgate because I think somebody should be underwriting my good time. I support the tailgate because I think, long term, a well-functioning tailgate is in the team's financial interest. I think the tailgate makes money for the team in the long term. I can hear the "Manning is smarter than you" reply coming, so just bear with me for a couple more paragraphs...

It all comes down to this: why should a casual fan bother going to an Argonauts game? The TO market is so full of near-perfect substitutes that (outside of the diehards like us) that I honestly can't think of a reason that hasn't been tried and failed in the not-too-distant past. I can cheer? I can do that at any pro sports event. I get to watch football? I can watch the game on my TV. I get to support the team? That hasn't been enough to persuade anybody for as long as I've been a fan. The tickets are cheap? Previous owners have tried lowering the price and gotten nowhere. A shipyard or beergarden? They had that at skydome and it's not very different from the pre-game parties that any other team throws. I get to drink at a bar in liberty village? Who cares, I can drink in a bar in my neighborhood. Bottom line, if there's a list of things I could get at an Argo game that I couldn't get literally ANYWHERE ELSE in Toronto, then a well-functioning tailgate is a big item on that list. As near as I can figure, it's a pretty damn short list, so the head office should have taken a serious look at it before crossing it off.

This will get me in trouble, but I want to say it: I carefully followed the TFC supporters groups and all the drama they kicked up with the condition of the field and the Argos moving to BMO. Do you think any of them said "well, they're really smart businessmen in the head office, they must know what they're doing, so let's go along with whatever they think is best"? Anytime something happened that they didn't like, they lost their friggin minds. They had their view of what made the team and the game special, they advocated tirelessly for that viewpoint, and get lost to any of the suits that tried to tell them differently. I completely disagreed with their viewpoint, and I'm not saying their approach was objectively right. All I know, however, is that MLSE blows copious amounts of money keeping that field in immaculate condition and scrubbing all traces of the Argonauts when the field is converted. Squeeky wheels get grease, my friends. Smiling, easy-going wheels get screwed.

Last point: Manning might have a bigger bank account than me, but that doesn't mean he's infallible. He's been a sports executive, but in leagues where the teams have always been cool and popular and not had the same problems the Argos have. Say what you want about Copeland and the execution, be he'd been a CFL executive for a long time and I think he had a better appreciation for what a successful tailgate would do for the team. Manning's been here for a cup of coffee, and I don't think he has nearly the same understanding of what they're getting into. You want to know what makes me worried? You're free to invent your own stories about why you think Manning axed the tailgate (lawsuits? show me the evidence), but all we know for sure is he took a look at it and said "it's forced. not enough people are doing it. it's not popular enough". Didn't we all think MLSE had the ability to MAKE things popular? How long before they decide "not enough people like the Argonauts. they're not popular enough"?
I know Naylor's convinced, but this is a red flag for me. I think it reflects a lack of thoughtfulness and nuance.

If I'm not already in trouble with you, this will probably clinch it: "He's a successful businessman, he must know what he's talking about," is one of the most common things I heard leading up to the 2016 U.S. presidential election... How's that working out?

[OV Argo]

That is just an outstanding post dmont. Love that clincher last paragraph - LOL ! Just IMO of course ;o)

[RB957]

How are people getting refunds? I was just told that no one will be getting refunds?

Was this question ever answered, because I have the same one? I believe we are entitled to a refund not just a credit, if that is what we prefer. Has anyone else got that, and were there any issues?

[RB957]

Was this question ever answered, because I have the same one? I believe we are entitled to a refund not just a credit, if that is what we prefer. Has anyone else got that, and were there any issues?

Never mind. I saw in the other post that refunds are being offered. Much appreciated.

[Neely2005]

I'll say it one more time: This. Is. A. False. Choice. MLSE didn't have to choose one or the other. Regardless of what happened with the tailgate, it is a good business decision to lower the price point of tickets so they at least match that of TFC. How could overpriced tickets, that suppressed the demand, be subsidizing the tailgate?? Lowering the price will probably increase demand and RAISE revenue in the long run. I personally think investing in and growing the tailgate would have raised revenue in the long run too. That would make both lowering prices and supporting the tailgate independent, sound business decisions. No tradeoff between the two!

That also eviscerates PullTogether's sanctimonious "you sure like spending other peoples' money" rebuttal. I don't support the tailgate because I think somebody should be underwriting my good time. I support the tailgate because I think, long term, a well-functioning tailgate is in the team's financial interest. I think the tailgate makes money for the team in the long term. I can hear the "Manning is smarter than you" reply coming, so just bear with me for a couple more paragraphs...

It all comes down to this: why should a casual fan bother going to an Argonauts game? The TO market is so full of near-perfect substitutes that (outside of the diehards like us) that I honestly can't think of a reason that hasn't been tried and failed in the not-too-distant past. I can cheer? I can do that at any pro sports event. I get to watch football? I can watch the game on my TV. I get to support the team? That hasn't been enough to persuade anybody for as long as I've been a fan. The tickets are cheap? Previous owners have tried lowering the price and gotten nowhere. A shipyard or beergarden? They had that at skydome and it's not very different from the pre-game parties that any other team throws. I get to drink at a bar in liberty village? Who cares, I can drink in a bar in my neighborhood. Bottom line, if there's a list of things I could get at an Argo game that I couldn't get literally ANYWHERE ELSE in Toronto, then a well-functioning tailgate is a big item on that list. As near as I can figure, it's a pretty damn short list, so the head office should have taken a serious look at it before crossing it off.

This will get me in trouble, but I want to say it: I carefully followed the TFC supporters groups and all the drama they kicked up with the condition of the field and the Argos moving to BMO. Do you think any of them said "well, they're really smart businessmen in the head office, they must know what they're doing, so let's go along with whatever they think is best"? Anytime something happened that they didn't like, they lost their friggin minds. They had their view of what made the team and the game special, they advocated tirelessly for that viewpoint, and get lost to any of the suits that tried to tell them differently. I completely disagreed with their viewpoint, and I'm not saying their approach was objectively right. All I know, however, is that MLSE blows copious amounts of money keeping that field in immaculate condition and scrubbing all traces of the Argonauts when the field is converted. Squeeky wheels get grease, my friends. Smiling, easy-going wheels get screwed.

Last point: Manning might have a bigger bank account than me, but that doesn't mean he's infallible. He's been a sports executive, but in leagues where the teams have always been cool and popular and not had the same problems the Argos have. Say what you want about Copeland and the execution, be he'd been a CFL executive for a long time and I think he had a better appreciation for what a successful tailgate would do for the team. Manning's been here for a cup of coffee, and I don't think he has nearly the same understanding of what they're getting into. You want to know what makes me worried? You're free to invent your own stories about why you think Manning axed the tailgate (lawsuits? show me the evidence), but all we know for sure is he took a look at it and said "it's forced. not enough people are doing it. it's not popular enough". Didn't we all think MLSE had the ability to MAKE things popular? How long before they decide "not enough people like the Argonauts. they're not popular enough"?
I know Naylor's convinced, but this is a red flag for me. I think it reflects a lack of thoughtfulness and nuance.

If I'm not already in trouble with you, this will probably clinch it: "He's a successful businessman, he must know what he's talking about," is one of the most common things I heard leading up to the 2016 U.S. presidential election... How's that working out?

Well said.

[CBlake]

A big factor with the cancelation of the tailgates was cost ie the permits that had to be in place for them. MLSE has also made cuts in the pregame festivities they have been doing with TFC due to the cost of permits. They use to close off a section of Liberty that ran in front of Brazen Head over to Local. It proved to be not worth it for them. One thing to consider is the Ex is municipal property while Ontario place is provincial. There are lots of moving parts when it comes to putting things on like this.

The focus as evident with the lowering of ticket prices has to be on your core product. Toronto is such a competivite market for entertainment dollars they made a choice and to me it makes sense. As we all know every Argos ownership had tried different things over the years and in some ways no one has really figured it out over the long term, who remembers Show Time of 2002. I know it's on a smaller scale at least for now, but the Wolfpack created a buzz with a sport that most of this city did not even know existed prior to last year.

[Neely2005]

So many people mention the Wolfpack. Giving away your tickets for free is not a strategy for longterm success.

[PullTogether73]

I'll say it one more time: This. Is. A. False. Choice. MLSE didn't have to choose one or the other. Regardless of what happened with the tailgate, it is a good business decision to lower the price point of tickets so they at least match that of TFC. How could overpriced tickets, that suppressed the demand, be subsidizing the tailgate?? Lowering the price will probably increase demand and RAISE revenue in the long run. I personally think investing in and growing the tailgate would have raised revenue in the long run too. That would make both lowering prices and supporting the tailgate independent, sound business decisions. No tradeoff between the two!

That also eviscerates PullTogether's sanctimonious "you sure like spending other peoples' money" rebuttal. I don't support the tailgate because I think somebody should be underwriting my good time. I support the tailgate because I think, long term, a well-functioning tailgate is in the team's financial interest. I think the tailgate makes money for the team in the long term. I can hear the "Manning is smarter than you" reply coming, so just bear with me for a couple more paragraphs...

It all comes down to this: why should a casual fan bother going to an Argonauts game? The TO market is so full of near-perfect substitutes that (outside of the diehards like us) that I honestly can't think of a reason that hasn't been tried and failed in the not-too-distant past. I can cheer? I can do that at any pro sports event. I get to watch football? I can watch the game on my TV. I get to support the team? That hasn't been enough to persuade anybody for as long as I've been a fan. The tickets are cheap? Previous owners have tried lowering the price and gotten nowhere. A shipyard or beergarden? They had that at skydome and it's not very different from the pre-game parties that any other team throws. I get to drink at a bar in liberty village? Who cares, I can drink in a bar in my neighborhood. Bottom line, if there's a list of things I could get at an Argo game that I couldn't get literally ANYWHERE ELSE in Toronto, then a well-functioning tailgate is a big item on that list. As near as I can figure, it's a pretty damn short list, so the head office should have taken a serious look at it before crossing it off.

This will get me in trouble, but I want to say it: I carefully followed the TFC supporters groups and all the drama they kicked up with the condition of the field and the Argos moving to BMO. Do you think any of them said "well, they're really smart businessmen in the head office, they must know what they're doing, so let's go along with whatever they think is best"? Anytime something happened that they didn't like, they lost their friggin minds. They had their view of what made the team and the game special, they advocated tirelessly for that viewpoint, and get lost to any of the suits that tried to tell them differently. I completely disagreed with their viewpoint, and I'm not saying their approach was objectively right. All I know, however, is that MLSE blows copious amounts of money keeping that field in immaculate condition and scrubbing all traces of the Argonauts when the field is converted. Squeeky wheels get grease, my friends. Smiling, easy-going wheels get screwed.

Last point: Manning might have a bigger bank account than me, but that doesn't mean he's infallible. He's been a sports executive, but in leagues where the teams have always been cool and popular and not had the same problems the Argos have. Say what you want about Copeland and the execution, be he'd been a CFL executive for a long time and I think he had a better appreciation for what a successful tailgate would do for the team. Manning's been here for a cup of coffee, and I don't think he has nearly the same understanding of what they're getting into. You want to know what makes me worried? You're free to invent your own stories about why you think Manning axed the tailgate (lawsuits? show me the evidence), but all we know for sure is he took a look at it and said "it's forced. not enough people are doing it. it's not popular enough". Didn't we all think MLSE had the ability to MAKE things popular? How long before they decide "not enough people like the Argonauts. they're not popular enough"?
I know Naylor's convinced, but this is a red flag for me. I think

it reflects a lack of thoughtfulness and nuance.

If I'm not already in trouble with you, this will probably clinch it: "He's a successful businessman, he must know what he's talking about," is one of the most common things I heard leading up to the 2016 U.S. presidential election... How's that working out?

Yes, well thought out comments sir.
A few thoughts...

"I'll say it one more time: This. Is. A. False. Choice. MLSE didn't have to choose one or the other."
How do you know this to be true? AFAIK, none of us have sat in on Argonauts management meetings, none of us know what, if any, the Argonauts operating budget might be. From what I have seen (tailgating cancellation, radio broadcast cancellation last year), the Argonauts do seem to have to operate within some sort of budget. The evidence suggests that they do not have access to unlimited amounts of MLSE cash.
(I'll remain "sanctimonious" as you put it, until I hear from someone who knows for certain that operating funds are endless and we can spend the Argonauts money freely.)

"the head office should have taken a serious look at it before crossing it off"
Again, how do you know that they didn't?

"I support the tailgate because I think, long term, a well-functioning tailgate is in the team's financial interest. I think the tailgate makes money for the team in the long term. I can hear the "Manning is smarter than you" reply coming"
"Manning might have a bigger bank account than me, but that doesn't mean he's infallible."
I don't know that anyone here thinks that any part of Argonauts (or even MLSE) management is infallible. I certainly don't. And your case that the tailgate is a good investment in the Argos success in the long term is sound imo. HOWEVER, I still go back to the budget/endless funds debate - one may argue that higher prices were not subsidizing the tailgate, but clearly, if attendance remains the same this year as the previous two years, the Argos are out a SIGNIFICANT amount of cash due to lower prices. Appearances are that tailgating and other measures (Shipyard) were tried, attendance actually dropped from the Rogers Centre days, time to try something else.

"MLSE blows copious amounts of money keeping that field in immaculate condition and scrubbing all traces of the Argonauts when the field is converted. Squeeky wheels get grease, my friends. Smiling, easy-going wheels get screwed."
Excellent point! Nothing wrong with/no cost to making our opinions heard. It at least got us home game radio broadcasts back last year.

Finally, yes, that last paragraph is hilarious and sad at the same time.

[AngeloV]

a big factor with the cancelation of the tailgates was cost ie the permits that had to be in place for them. Mlse has also made cuts in the pregame festivities they have been doing with tfc due to the cost of permits. They use to close off a section of liberty that ran in front of brazen head over to local. It proved to be not worth it for them. One thing to consider is the ex is municipal property while ontario place is provincial. There are lots of moving parts when it comes to putting things on like this.

The focus as evident with the lowering of ticket prices has to be on your core product. Toronto is such a competivite market for entertainment dollars they made a choice and to me it makes sense. As we all know every argos ownership had tried different things over the years and in some ways no one has really figured it out over the long term, who remembers show time of 2002. I know it's on a smaller scale at least for now, but the wolfpack created a buzz with a sport that most of this city did not even know existed prior to last year.

bingo!!

[argolio]

That's right....argolio is going to get his comeuppins.Ha! I basically got it right after the East final.

[AngeloV]

Ha! I basically got it right after the East final.

Wasn't that more of a godownins? LOL!!

[argolio]

Wasn't that more of a godownins? LOL!!Direction had no meaning for about ten seconds.

[Topshelf]

MLSE is trying to build a fanbase, rather than maintain one.
The tailgate just didnt reach enough people.
No other team has a pre game party, other than say the TFC championship, or opening days, etc.
The Argos are probably going back to trying to get the "liberty village" crowd to come out. People that will ttc to the game.
I still think the only answer is to make a big signing. If Manziel goes to hamilton, that will be the biggest home game of the year.
Fans turned out for Rocket, there was "buzz" for Ricky before he got hurt.
TFC saw a boost in their lean years whenever a big star from another team was rolling into town. Heck a big number of people bought seasons seats the first year solely to see Beckham.
Thats the toronto market.
That said, the scheduling issue someone posted early, with competing concerts at ontario place makes a lot of sense.
I dont think it was solely a cost issue. They likely just felt they want to bring in a certain crowd that wasnt going to attend the tailgate anyways.
The majority of fans who will be upset with this are likely existing season seat holders, who will renew anyways.

[Argocister]

I hope your last statement of seasons ticket holders will renew anyways holds ... Because for me this helps me to decide not to renew some of my tickets next year.

dmonts statement ......
Last point: Manning might have a bigger bank account than me, but that doesn't mean he's infallible. He's been a sports executive, but in leagues where the teams have always been cool and popular and not had the same problems the Argos have. Say what you want about Copeland and the execution, be he'd been a CFL executive for a long time and I think he had a better appreciation for what a successful tailgate would do for the team. Manning's been here for a cup of coffee, and I don't think he has nearly the same understanding of what they're getting into. You want to know what makes me worried? You're free to invent your own stories about why you think Manning axed the tailgate (lawsuits? show me the evidence), but all we know for sure is he took a look at it and said "it's forced. not enough people are doing it. it's not popular enough". Didn't we all think MLSE had the ability to MAKE things popular? How long before they decide "not enough people like the Argonauts. they're not popular enough"?
I know Naylor's convinced, but this is a red flag for me. I think
it reflects a lack of thoughtfulness and nuance.


That scares me ..... Because I agree that Copland knows the nuances of the CFL and the tailgate is one of them .
I have 6 seasons .... The tailgate is used every game .....and for at least 3 games a season we will get 10-20 more people out.
They all don't become season ticket holders but they do come to a couple games a year and they do follow the Argos now.

I'm not sure I will renew 6 in the future.... It's the experience that creates the atmosphere. It's the annual family gathering at the home opener ..... The 5,7 and 10 yr olds aren't getting into the shipyard. ..... It's the Women's Sports Network that comes together at least once a season ...... It's the summer birthdays that get celebrated ..... Sorry I'm not reserving 20 seats at a local restaurant for those..... We can hold a tailgate and then the game ..... Maybe best to do this at home from now on with my blue truck and new BBQ .... Yep this may be the last year for 6 seasons .....I will buy 2 from now on .

I am very disappointed . I'm not sure Manning knows what the repercussions will be .... I don't think they thought this out ....
It does look like he has taken his cookie cutter mold and placed it on the Argos . If it works ..... Good .... I guess the experience will be a TFC style one now ....

And sorry if the the tailgate seems forced but that's all we have in
Ontario ....so please don't take it away!..... Oh yea they already did. Damn

[argos1873]

They did the right thing which was lower ticket prices. Good lord those prices were out of whack. The tailgate, which was obviously great with some fans, didn't do anything attendance wise. Build the regular attendance first. I hate to see the tailgate go, but I think lower prices are more effective than the tailgate. If you get more fans, a natural tailgate might ensue...who knows, if the feds can legalize pot, maybe the province can loosen the liquor laws a smidge.

[paulwoods13]

I still think the only answer is to make a big signing. If Manziel goes to hamilton, that will be the biggest home game of the year.
Fans turned out for Rocket, there was "buzz" for Ricky before he got hurt.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The Argos had ONE crowd above 40,000 in Rocket's first season, and then a 50k crowd for the Eastern Final. The next year, same thing -- a single crowd above 40,000.

In 2006, when Ricky Williams was with the Argos, the reported average home attendance was 32,000, It's been widely reported -- and I certainly believe -- that attendance figures from the Cynamon-Sokolowski era did not accurately reflect tickets sold.

"Buzz" can't be measured, but IMO whatever buzz the signing of Ricky Williams generated among non-fans was gone a couple of weeks after the season started.

If Toronto's only or best hope of gate success is stunt signings, I'd say we are doomed because there is no way to sign anyone who would actually move the needle without blowing the salary cap to smithereens. That happened in 1991 and while it had some short-term success, the franchise was at rock bottom two years later, with no "name" star and dwindling crowds.

[gilthethrill]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The Argos had ONE crowd above 40,000 in Rocket's first season, and then a 50k crowd for the Eastern Final. The next year, same thing -- a single crowd above 40,000.

In 2006, when Ricky Williams was with the Argos, the reported average home attendance was 32,000, It's been widely reported -- and I certainly believe -- that attendance figures from the Cynamon-Sokolowski era did not accurately reflect tickets sold.

"Buzz" can't be measured, but IMO whatever buzz the signing of Ricky Williams generated among non-fans was gone a couple of weeks after the season started.

If Toronto's only or best hope of gate success is stunt signings, I'd say we are doomed because there is no way to sign anyone who would actually move the needle without blowing the salary cap to smithereens. That happened in 1991 and while it had some short-term success, the franchise was at rock bottom two years later, with no "name" star and dwindling crowds.

In addition, the CFL has a salary cap, where as the soccer league TFC plays in, clearly does not.

[OV Argo]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The Argos had ONE crowd above 40,000 in Rocket's first season, and then a 50k crowd for the Eastern Final. The next year, same thing -- a single crowd above 40,000.

In 2006, when Ricky Williams was with the Argos, the reported average home attendance was 32,000, It's been widely reported -- and I certainly believe -- that attendance figures from the Cynamon-Sokolowski era did not accurately reflect tickets sold.

"Buzz" can't be measured, but IMO whatever buzz the signing of Ricky Williams generated among non-fans was gone a couple of weeks after the season started.

If Toronto's only or best hope of gate success is stunt signings, I'd say we are doomed because there is no way to sign anyone who would actually move the needle without blowing the salary cap to smithereens. That happened in 1991 and while it had some short-term success, the franchise was at rock bottom two years later, with no "name" star and dwindling crowds.


Wasn't a buzz about the new super SkyDome a factor in bigger Argo crowds back then as well - more people wanting to check out the facility ? (along with the Rocket plus Candy & Gretzky as part onwers) ?


Signing another ex-all-american/NFL super-hero would only create a slight bump in Argo interest for part of a season maybe ? (was attendance way up for the first couple of games Ricky Williams played for the Argos ?)


We all realize it will be a long, tough haul to get the Argos back to anything approaching decent crowds and much more respect on the TO sports scene. Agreed with Paul that some gimmick signing of a name American football star is no answer to the problem. It will, IMO, take a whole bunch of baby steps and little things to help the Argos regain some stature in the market. Marketing of all sorts and reaching out to new fans in many ways. That's why - IMO - the cancellation of the tailgate is myopic, bottom line thinking - by an ownership I have little trust knows anything much or smart about Canadian football - and is not going to help, when it could have continued to be one of the little things that helped.

[jerrym]

Wasn't a buzz about the new super SkyDome a factor in bigger Argo crowds back then as well - more people wanting to check out the facility ? (along with the Rocket plus Candy & Gretzky as part onwers) ?


Signing another ex-all-american/NFL super-hero would only create a slight bump in Argo interest for part of a season maybe ? (was attendance way up for the first couple of games Ricky Williams played for the Argos ?)


We all realize it will be a long, tough haul to get the Argos back to anything approaching decent crowds and much more respect on the TO sports scene. Agreed with Paul that some gimmick signing of a name American football star is no answer to the problem. It will, IMO, take a whole bunch of baby steps and little things to help the Argos regain some stature in the market. Marketing of all sorts and reaching out to new fans in many ways. That's why - IMO - the cancellation of the tailgate is myopic, bottom line thinking - by an ownership I have little trust knows anything much or smart about Canadian football - and is not going to help, when it could have continued to be one of the little things that helped.

I agree totally. Promoting a quick fix of any type only will lead to discouragement when it fails.

[PullTogether73]

Wasn't a buzz about the new super SkyDome a factor in bigger Argo crowds back then as well - more people wanting to check out the facility ? (along with the Rocket plus Candy & Gretzky as part onwers) ?


Signing another ex-all-american/NFL super-hero would only create a slight bump in Argo interest for part of a season maybe ? (was attendance way up for the first couple of games Ricky Williams played for the Argos ?)


We all realize it will be a long, tough haul to get the Argos back to anything approaching decent crowds and much more respect on the TO sports scene. Agreed with Paul that some gimmick signing of a name American football star is no answer to the problem. It will, IMO, take a whole bunch of baby steps and little things to help the Argos regain some stature in the market. Marketing of all sorts and reaching out to new fans in many ways. That's why - IMO - the cancellation of the tailgate is myopic, bottom line thinking - by an ownership I have little trust knows anything much or smart about Canadian football - and is not going to help, when it could have continued to be one of the little things that helped.

Agreed on all counts.

Again, assuming that there is a budget that must be followed, I do believe that lowering ticket prices will have a larger impact on attendance than the tailgate, so I would invest money there as the team has done.
However, the tailgate did offer something unique to the Argonauts in the Toronto sporting landscape. Maybe they bring it back eventually?

[Will]

Wasn't a buzz about the new super SkyDome a factor in bigger Argo crowds back then as well - more people wanting to check out the facility ? (along with the Rocket plus Candy & Gretzky as part onwers) ?


Signing another ex-all-american/NFL super-hero would only create a slight bump in Argo interest for part of a season maybe ? (was attendance way up for the first couple of games Ricky Williams played for the Argos ?)


We all realize it will be a long, tough haul to get the Argos back to anything approaching decent crowds and much more respect on the TO sports scene. Agreed with Paul that some gimmick signing of a name American football star is no answer to the problem. It will, IMO, take a whole bunch of baby steps and little things to help the Argos regain some stature in the market. Marketing of all sorts and reaching out to new fans in many ways. That's why - IMO - the cancellation of the tailgate is myopic, bottom line thinking - by an ownership I have little trust knows anything much or smart about Canadian football - and is not going to help, when it could have continued to be one of the little things that helped.

Argo attendance at the Dome was above 30,000 from 1989 through 1992. There was an increase in attendance from 1991 to 1992, but it wasn't significant.

The Argos reported attendance in the 30,000 range from 2005-2007 range and I don't think it changed much for the Williams' season.

The "name American football star" gimmick worked so well for the Argos in the 1970's too.

[Neely2005]

Wasn't a buzz about the new super SkyDome a factor in bigger Argo crowds back then as well - more people wanting to check out the facility ? (along with the Rocket plus Candy & Gretzky as part onwers) ?


Signing another ex-all-american/NFL super-hero would only create a slight bump in Argo interest for part of a season maybe ? (was attendance way up for the first couple of games Ricky Williams played for the Argos ?)


We all realize it will be a long, tough haul to get the Argos back to anything approaching decent crowds and much more respect on the TO sports scene. Agreed with Paul that some gimmick signing of a name American football star is no answer to the problem. It will, IMO, take a whole bunch of baby steps and little things to help the Argos regain some stature in the market. Marketing of all sorts and reaching out to new fans in many ways. That's why - IMO - the cancellation of the tailgate is myopic, bottom line thinking - by an ownership I have little trust knows anything much or smart about Canadian football - and is not going to help, when it could have continued to be one of the little things that helped.

Yeah it really doesn't make any sense why they cancelled the only thing that was unique to the Argonauts in a crowded and competitive Toronto sports market. Totally shooting themselves in the foot.

[Argo57]

Yeah it really doesn't make any sense why they cancelled the only thing that was unique to the Argonauts in a crowded and competitive Toronto sports market. Totally shooting themselves in the foot.

If Argonaut attendance figures were rising I might be inclined to agree but the opposite is in fact true so eliminating tailgating is a non issue IMO.

[OV Argo]

If Argonaut attendance figures were rising I might be inclined to agree but the opposite is in fact true so eliminating tailgating is a non issue IMO.


Eliminating an effort to promote the Argos and the game day experience at the stadium - one that has been reported as popular & fun by many fans - or ANY effort to promote and market this team, is a"non issue" ? Sorry, I just don't get that.

[Argocister]

If Argonaut attendance figures were rising I might be inclined to agree but the opposite is in fact true so eliminating tailgating is a non issue IMO.

yea... I'm with OVArgo on this one .... If at least 10 % of your seasons ticket holders (if not more) are participating in this .... its not a non-issue.
It is a non-issue if you don't care about your existing STH.

I agree with the cost of the tickets .... and reducing them will hopefully work ... but rather than nix the tailgate, figuring out a less expensive alternative may have kept a good number of the STH happier.... but that may not fit into Mannings pre set program the Argos are to follow.

[Argo57]

Eliminating an effort to promote the Argos and the game day experience at the stadium - one that has been reported as popular & fun by many fans - or ANY effort to promote and market this team, is a"non issue" ? Sorry, I just don't get that.

Attendance numbers speak volumes IMO, tailgating has had little to no effect on the bottom line, sorry OV.

[Argo57]

yea... I'm with OVArgo on this one .... If at least 10 % of your seasons ticket holders (if not more) are participating in this .... its not a non-issue.
It is a non-issue if you don't care about your existing STH.

I agree with the cost of the tickets .... and reducing them will hopefully work ... but rather than nix the tailgate, figuring out a less expensive alternative may have kept a good number of the STH happier.... but that may not fit into Mannings pre set program the Argos are to follow.

Let’s see what the Argos come up with in regards to the game day experience and see what happens, perhaps the 350 or so STH’s that are unhappy or upset at this cancellation will be happy with the change.
Personally I see more upside in drawing more fans to the games with affordable ticket pricing vs tailgating which seemed to be Michael Copeland’s answer for everything.

[paulwoods13]

Argo attendance at the Dome was above 30,000 from 1989 through 1992. There was an increase in attendance from 1991 to 1992, but it wasn't significant.

Slight decrease from 1991 to 1992, according to this database:

https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-argonauts/attendance/1991/
https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-argonauts/attendance/1992/

[OV Argo]

Let’s see what the Argos come up with in regards to the game day experience and see what happens, perhaps the 350 or so STH’s that are unhappy or upset at this cancellation will be happy with the change.
Personally I see more upside in drawing more fans to the games with affordable ticket pricing vs tailgating which seemed to be Michael Copeland’s answer for everything.


Again though - you seem to be framing it as an either or choice. Reduced ticket prices AND a continuation of some sort of "tailgate" type pre-game/stadium experience effort = why not do both ?

I know you're not going to defer to a "well this Manning guy is an expert and knows all / knows best" type argument. If nothing happens and your wait & see what they do with game experience ideas comes up empty ... ?

[AngeloV]

Attendance numbers speak volumes IMO, tailgating has had little to no effect on the bottom line, sorry OV.

And the average attendance actually went down the 2nd year, despite having a much better team, so I don't see the optimism of it that others seem to.

[Argo57]

Again though - you seem to be framing it as an either or choice. Reduced ticket prices AND a continuation of some sort of "tailgate" type pre-game/stadium experience effort = why not do both ?

I know you're not going to defer to a "well this Manning guy is an expert and knows all / knows best" type argument. If nothing happens and your wait & see what they do with game experience ideas comes up empty ... ?

They could have done both, maybe they simply decided that tailgating wasn’t bringing any added value to the equation (overall attendance would indicate it hasn’t).
I would be willing to guess they discussed internally the potential upside of future attendance (with reduced ticket pricing) vs potential downside of eliminating tailgating which would make their decision prudent as well.
Let’s say 350 to 400 season ticket holders are pissed off about the tailgating situation I don’t see many (if any) packing it in but on the flip side I could see more affordable ticket pricing drawing people in as STH’s viewing the Argos as great entertainment for the $$.
Manning has had great success with TFC but not sure if he understands the CFL or not, seems to have the typical MLSE corporate speak down to a science so time will tell IMO.

[Jumbo]

Put me on the side of season ticket holders who are looking for a refund. I'll still be going to games, just not all of them like I did with our tailgating group. Our group were four guys who went to every game and made each game an event. We planned our meals a week in advance depending on who we were playing. Salmon and lobster for BC, steak or ribs for Alberta teams. We even make deep fried beaver tails for Ottawa during the Grey Cup. Our Hamilton meals were by far the worst! How do you bbq baloney?!

Each game, we brought others with us as well. Our tailgate often took up two spots and had as many as 15 people at any given time. Many in those groups returned to get tickets and tailgate with us 2 or 3 times each year. None of them would have come on their own. Each and everyone are regulars to the Leafs, Jays, Raptors and TFC. Each agreed that the tailgate was a blast and was unique and would return. I'll tell you it wasn't the quality of play 2 years ago that got them out!

If they are getting rid of the tailgate because it didn't improve attendance, then they might as well get rid of everything else they did the past 2 years. Get rid of the costly signage at BMO; that didn't help. Get rid of the cheap season ticket gifts; that didn't help either. Get rid of the hip hop dancers, the drummers, the plane fly overs, none of those helped and all cost money.

For those that could care less that the tailgate was cancelled is a shame. It's a shame that you didn't take advantage of it. It's a shame that you didn't reach out to your family and friends and make going to an Argo game a full day event. I can tell you if you did it once, you would have been hooked.

I'm also quite confident that if it was allowed to continue, it would have grown. The tailgates the second season were just as big or bigger than the first season. The last tailgate for the Eastern Final was amazing. So as the Argo crowds in BMO dwindled to some games just over 10,000, the tailgates didn't.

Hopefully the crowds will improve this year and the new management finds a way to bring back something that was entirely unique to the Toronto sporting scene. When that happens, sign me up for 4 seasons tickets again instead of a couple flex packs.

[Argo57]

And the average attendance actually went down the 2nd year, despite having a much better team, so I don't see the optimism of it that others seem to.

I agree AV, also tailgating was Michael Copeland’s vision not Manning’s so no shock that this was one of the first changes announced.

[Argo57]

Put me on the side of season ticket holders who are looking for a refund. I'll still be going to games, just not all of them like I did with our tailgating group. Our group were four guys who went to every game and made each game an event. We planned our meals a week in advance depending on who we were playing. Salmon and lobster for BC, steak or ribs for Alberta teams. We even make deep fried beaver tails for Ottawa during the Grey Cup. Our Hamilton meals were by far the worst! How do you bbq baloney?!

Each game, we brought others with us as well. Our tailgate often took up two spots and had as many as 15 people at any given time. Many in those groups returned to get tickets and tailgate with us 2 or 3 times each year. None of them would have come on their own. Each and everyone are regulars to the Leafs, Jays, Raptors and TFC. Each agreed that the tailgate was a blast and was unique and would return. I'll tell you it wasn't the quality of play 2 years ago that got them out!

If they are getting rid of the tailgate because it didn't improve attendance, then they might as well get rid of everything else they did the past 2 years. Get rid of the costly signage at BMO; that didn't help. Get rid of the cheap season ticket gifts; that didn't help either. Get rid of the hip hop dancers, the drummers, the plane fly overs, none of those helped and all cost money.

For those that could care less that the tailgate was cancelled is a shame. It's a shame that you didn't take advantage of it. It's a shame that you didn't reach out to your family and friends and make going to an Argo game a full day event. I can tell you if you did it once, you would have been hooked.

I'm also quite confident that if it was allowed to continue, it would have grown. The tailgates the second season were just as big or bigger than the first season. The last tailgate for the Eastern Final was amazing. So as the Argo crowds in BMO dwindled to some games just over 10,000, the tailgates didn't.

Hopefully the crowds will improve this year and the new management finds a way to bring back something that was entirely unique to the Toronto sporting scene. When that happens, sign me up for 4 seasons tickets again instead of a couple flex packs.

I’m sure making an Argonaut game a “full day event” means many things to many people.
As always I will be attending Argonaut games this season with my 14 year old son so our game day experience consists a GO train ride to the stadium, a walk around to check things out, and dinner before or after the game (depending on the day and time of the game) somewhere in Liberty Village, works well for us.

["Issues"Mcgee]

I woud love to bring a grill and some beers this season and have my own little tailgate with a few friends just to see what would happen.

[Jumbo]

I’m sure making an Argonaut game a “full day event” means many things to many people.
As always I will be attending Argonaut games this season with my 14 year old son so our game day experience consists a GO train ride to the stadium, a walk around to check things out, and dinner before or after the game (depending on the day and time of the game) somewhere in Liberty Village, works well for us.

I agree with you and that's what I'll be doing too, just not every game. In fact, that's the exact same 'experience' I get when I go to the Jays, Leafs, Raptors, or TFC, and that's the point I was trying to make. The tailgate, was unique and something new for the city. I just find it a shame that they couldn't find a way to keep it and allow it to grow.

[Jumbo]

I woud love to bring a grill and some beers this season and have my own little tailgate with a few friends just to see what would happen.

Our group is most likely going to try to do it for the home opener. Just have to figure which parking lot is best.

[Argo57]

Our group is most likely going to try to do it for the home opener. Just have to figure which parking lot is best.

5 years in the slammer (no parole), this is Toronto after all!

[OV Argo]

Judging by comments I've read - here and on the comments portion of the 3RD Down report on the matter - range from lots of disappointment to anger and include guys saying they won't be going to games as often to wanting to cancel their tix. and get a refund; along with some of it's no big deal or the right move.

Love to hear somebody put a question to Manning to see if he has heard of all the negative response and anger & disappointment over the move - and to hear his response. Too much to ask for (a response that is) ?

[ToneDeaf]

Judging by comments I've read - here and on the comments portion of the 3RD Down report on the matter - range from lots of disappointment to anger and include guys saying they won't be going to games as often to wanting to cancel their tix. and get a refund; along with some of it's no big deal or the right move.

Love to hear somebody put a question to Manning to see if he has heard of all the negative response and anger & disappointment over the move - and to hear his response. Too much to ask for (a response that is) ?

So why not start a petition and let them see how many disgruntled current and potential fans there are who would like to see the tailgate reinstated?

[OV Argo]

So why not start a petition and let them see how many disgruntled current and potential fans there are who would like to see the tailgate reinstated?

It's an idea for sure.

Could also try to draft an e-mail or some sort of note to Manning to see what his reaction and response would be. A job for somebody who has some faith that a corporate suit would care and bother to respond. ;o)

[ToneDeaf]

It's an idea for sure.

Could also try to draft an e-mail or some sort of note to Manning to see what his reaction and response would be. A job for somebody who has some faith that a corporate suit would care and bother to respond. ;o)

One email from one person wouldn’t be nearly enough, no matter how powerfully worded.

If people want their tailgate back, then there has to be weight of numbers behind the message, be it by traditional means or preferably modern, easily and highly-visible social media methods.

An opportunity for an Argo diehard to make voices heard. Anyone up for the job?

[Shatto]

OV makes a valid point when he questions why it had to be an either/or issue. It would be illuminating to see an objective accounting breakdown as to the actual cost of the tailgating.

Having read a number of posts, indicating tailgating attracted family and friends, who normally wouldn't have attended games; it raises the interesting question as to how much more the attendance might have dropped, especially in the 2nd year, without the tailgating experience.

[Scooter McCray]

I am willing to see what Manning and the organization have in store for their new game day experience. Pre game, In game and Post game. Something that differentiates them from the other teams, that will evolve but be consistently done so that Argo games become a destination event 10 times per year. The problem in the past has always been consistency and commitment of ownership. The tailgate is just another idea that has been forgotten because there is new management again. Just have a plan and do it. Michael Copeland did not have a plan beyond opening day 2016 because nothing was built off of that day. This is why it has been difficult to gain traction in the minds of Toronto fans. That and intentional media bias to not cover the team.

[Neely2005]

If Argonaut attendance figures were rising I might be inclined to agree but the opposite is in fact true so eliminating tailgating is a non issue IMO.

It's the only thing that differentiated the Argonauts gameday experience from every other Toronto teams gameday experience.

[Neely2005]

Put me on the side of season ticket holders who are looking for a refund. I'll still be going to games, just not all of them like I did with our tailgating group. Our group were four guys who went to every game and made each game an event. We planned our meals a week in advance depending on who we were playing. Salmon and lobster for BC, steak or ribs for Alberta teams. We even make deep fried beaver tails for Ottawa during the Grey Cup. Our Hamilton meals were by far the worst! How do you bbq baloney?!

Each game, we brought others with us as well. Our tailgate often took up two spots and had as many as 15 people at any given time. Many in those groups returned to get tickets and tailgate with us 2 or 3 times each year. None of them would have come on their own. Each and everyone are regulars to the Leafs, Jays, Raptors and TFC. Each agreed that the tailgate was a blast and was unique and would return. I'll tell you it wasn't the quality of play 2 years ago that got them out!

If they are getting rid of the tailgate because it didn't improve attendance, then they might as well get rid of everything else they did the past 2 years. Get rid of the costly signage at BMO; that didn't help. Get rid of the cheap season ticket gifts; that didn't help either. Get rid of the hip hop dancers, the drummers, the plane fly overs, none of those helped and all cost money.

For those that could care less that the tailgate was cancelled is a shame. It's a shame that you didn't take advantage of it. It's a shame that you didn't reach out to your family and friends and make going to an Argo game a full day event. I can tell you if you did it once, you would have been hooked.

I'm also quite confident that if it was allowed to continue, it would have grown. The tailgates the second season were just as big or bigger than the first season. The last tailgate for the Eastern Final was amazing. So as the Argo crowds in BMO dwindled to some games just over 10,000, the tailgates didn't.

Hopefully the crowds will improve this year and the new management finds a way to bring back something that was entirely unique to the Toronto sporting scene. When that happens, sign me up for 4 seasons tickets again instead of a couple flex packs.

Well said and very similar to the experiences that we had with the Tailgates.

[RB957]

Put me on the side of season ticket holders who are looking for a refund. I'll still be going to games, just not all of them like I did with our tailgating group. Our group were four guys who went to every game and made each game an event. We planned our meals a week in advance depending on who we were playing. Salmon and lobster for BC, steak or ribs for Alberta teams. We even make deep fried beaver tails for Ottawa during the Grey Cup. Our Hamilton meals were by far the worst! How do you bbq baloney?!

Each game, we brought others with us as well. Our tailgate often took up two spots and had as many as 15 people at any given time. Many in those groups returned to get tickets and tailgate with us 2 or 3 times each year. None of them would have come on their own. Each and everyone are regulars to the Leafs, Jays, Raptors and TFC. Each agreed that the tailgate was a blast and was unique and would return. I'll tell you it wasn't the quality of play 2 years ago that got them out!

If they are getting rid of the tailgate because it didn't improve attendance, then they might as well get rid of everything else they did the past 2 years. Get rid of the costly signage at BMO; that didn't help. Get rid of the cheap season ticket gifts; that didn't help either. Get rid of the hip hop dancers, the drummers, the plane fly overs, none of those helped and all cost money.

For those that could care less that the tailgate was cancelled is a shame. It's a shame that you didn't take advantage of it. It's a shame that you didn't reach out to your family and friends and make going to an Argo game a full day event. I can tell you if you did it once, you would have been hooked.

I'm also quite confident that if it was allowed to continue, it would have grown. The tailgates the second season were just as big or bigger than the first season. The last tailgate for the Eastern Final was amazing. So as the Argo crowds in BMO dwindled to some games just over 10,000, the tailgates didn't.

Hopefully the crowds will improve this year and the new management finds a way to bring back something that was entirely unique to the Toronto sporting scene. When that happens, sign me up for 4 seasons tickets again instead of a couple flex packs.

Great post. I agree with pretty much everything you say except for asking for a refund. As much as I loved the tailgate experience, for various reasons, I couldn't always do it for every game. I will miss it. But I would never consider giving up my Season's Tickets because it is gone. Love the game and the team too much. The idea of an "unofficial" tailgate sounds intriguing, but is it worth the potential of being fined? Not saying that the police would make that a high priority especially if you are discrete, and I am sure the first time you would probably get a warning. Who knows, if people start doing it, it might catch on, and something organic like that could grow on its own.

Like the other poster mentioned, I go to games with my son. He has a place not far from the stadium, so I am sure our game day experience will start with some cold ones on his balcony before heading down to check out what is happening pre-game. As much as I enjoyed them, I for one am not going to let the lack of tailgate stop me from enjoying the games, and the reduced ticket price has been a great blessing.

[rdavies]

I have not read the entire thread so first off I plead ignorance. I am totally missing the point here. The people here who are complaining about the tailgate being cancelled, why can't you just do it yourselves? Instead of expecting 1000/2000 people start out with thirty. Are there ten people here who would go to a tailgate and maybe have two other people with them.

Obviously with that many/few people you would be congregating together and not be spread throughout a parking lot. Promote yourselves with media outlets, radio loves live hits like that. The host broadcaster will want that type of colour to fill space in the broadcast, (the ol bratwurst on the barbie shot) Any decent cameraman will shoot the 30 people to look like 300, not to be manipulative but to make the gathering look like an event and not be pathetic with so few people. But to my mind 30 is a lot of people.

Now I don't know about your liquor laws but can you hand out free de-alcoholized beers (in a cup?), sort of your contribution to get the promotion of the team back on its feet and bring more people to the gathering. If it's a hot day, I'm drinkin' a free beer no matter what it is (you don't have to say it's de-alcoholized).

Do this for every game with 30 people, for one year, two if you have to, I guarantee, human nature being what it is people will be curious about why that group is having such a good time and will endeavour to find out.

Now some might say they already tried that but it wasn't the fans responsibility as a fan to go promote it, it was the team. This way the fan has a special interest in growing the tailgate. Just keep doing it and good things will happen, MLSE will do whatever they can to help facilitate you (without spending money?), they did that with TFC they'll do it with you.

Otherwise, worst case scenario, just look forward to having a good meal and a great time with some new found friends every couple of weeks. Doesn't sound bad to me.

Maybe I didn't explain myself and what I said came across as naive but I can tell you as a former TV and marketing guy it would work. In this case it will truly be if you build it they will come.

[dmont]

I have not read the entire thread so first off I plead ignorance. I am totally missing the point here. The people here who are complaining about the tailgate being cancelled, why can't you just do it yourselves? Instead of expecting 1000/2000 people start out with thirty. Are there ten people here who would go to a tailgate and maybe have two other people with them.

Obviously with that many/few people you would be congregating together and not be spread throughout a parking lot. Promote yourselves with media outlets, radio loves live hits like that. The host broadcaster will want that type of colour to fill space in the broadcast, (the ol bratwurst on the barbie shot) Any decent cameraman will shoot the 30 people to look like 300, not to be manipulative but to make the gathering look like an event and not be pathetic with so few people. But to my mind 30 is a lot of people.

Now I don't know about your liquor laws but can you hand out free de-alcoholized beers (in a cup?), sort of your contribution to get the promotion of the team back on its feet and bring more people to the gathering. If it's a hot day, I'm drinkin' a free beer no matter what it is (you don't have to say it's de-alcoholized).

Do this for every game with 30 people, for one year, two if you have to, I guarantee, human nature being what it is people will be curious about why that group is having such a good time and will endeavour to find out.

Now some might say they already tried that but it wasn't the fans responsibility as a fan to go promote it, it was the team. This way the fan has a special interest in growing the tailgate. Just keep doing it and good things will happen, MLSE will do whatever they can to help facilitate you (without spending money?), they did that with TFC they'll do it with you.

Otherwise, worst case scenario, just look forward to having a good meal and a great time with some new found friends every couple of weeks. Doesn't sound bad to me.

Maybe I didn't explain myself and what I said came across as naive but I can tell you as a former TV and marketing guy it would work. In this case it will truly be if you build it they will come.

I hope an organic tailgate does spring up and eventually turn into something huge for the team. That would be a good use of time for the fan groups, to get together and set out some parameters. I think this would be a second-best scenario. However, I'm not optimistic.

As other posters have noted, however, fan-driven tailgating faces a lot of barriers that will work against it. Ontario liquor laws will inject enough uncertainty for some fans to avoid participating. BMO field rules and Ontario place rules and Exhibition rules create a frustrating mess of a labyrinth that many fans are not going to want to put up with. I understand that TFC fans tried to do something like this and were sent packing by the cops or event staff. I can imagine the disappointment of lugging all the tailgating supplies down to the game and then being told you can't do that here or (worse) here's a citation for breaking the law this week even though it wasn't a big deal last week.

There were MANY things the team was able to do that facilitated the event, helped it go smoothly, removed uncertainty, and promoted it outside of the diehard core. They established the rules, so fans knew that participating wouldn't get them in trouble. They coordinated with all the other events going on downtown. They organized the parking spots so tailgaters could all be together. They held promotions, brought cheerleaders and former players down in order to enrich the experience. In my opinion, all of these are necessary for tailgating to really work in downtown Toronto on public land with antiquated liquor laws. Without these, a fan-driven tailgate withers on the vine and dies.

The best bet for an organic tailgate is if the leaders of the different fan groups (Friends of the Argonauts, Argofans.com, The OARS, Double Blue Order, etc.) get together and take over the team's former functions. They wouldn't be able to get a liquor license for the area (so imbibing would have to stay on the extreme down-low) or reserve parking spaces, and I'm sure they'd need some kind of permission to bring in outside vendors and/or promo teams, but they could at least help with coordination. It's an uphill battle, though, and given the current state of Argo fandom in the city, I don't think it goes anywhere without the assistance of the team.

[dmont]

So why not start a petition and let them see how many disgruntled current and potential fans there are who would like to see the tailgate reinstated?

Just show me where to sign. I tried to get #BringBackArgoTailgate going on twitter and facebook (which I guess is the social media equivalent of a petition) but it didn't seem to go anywhere. Never too late to start, though.

[rdavies]

The best bet for an organic tailgate is if the leaders of the different fan groups (Friends of the Argonauts, Argofans.com, The OARS, Double Blue Order, etc.) get together and take over the team's former functions. A good place to start, that's one area where Argo fans can take a page out of the (for me) despised TFC's book.

[Jumbo]

Our group has already decided to tailgate for the first game. We won't be spending too much on expensive cuts of meat in case we get shut down, but we will try. We'll keep our beer on ice in our truck and use plastic cups. I'm confident that the worst that will happen is we will get a warning. After tailgating for the past couple of years, I highly doubt police will be running around trying to ticket people without giving a warning first. Best case scenario is they do a few walk byes to make sure that things are in control and like others have said, an organic tailgate begins to grow and we make due until a larger, sanctioned tailgate returns as crowds increase.

[dmont]

Our group has already decided to tailgate for the first game. We won't be spending too much on expensive cuts of meat in case we get shut down, but we will try. We'll keep our beer on ice in our truck and use plastic cups. I'm confident that the worst that will happen is we will get a warning. After tailgating for the past couple of years, I highly doubt police will be running around trying to ticket people without giving a warning first. Best case scenario is they do a few walk byes to make sure that things are in control and like others have said, an organic tailgate begins to grow and we make due until a larger, sanctioned tailgate returns as crowds increase.

Good idea and best of luck to you. Which one is "our group"? Argofans.com? Will you be coordinating with any of the other fan groups?

[Will]

Good idea and best of luck to you. Which one is "our group"? Argofans.com? Will you be coordinating with any of the other fan groups?

We are chatting about it, but I don't really think a consensus has come around yet.

[rdavies]

We won't be spending too much on expensive cuts of meat in case we get shut down, but we will try. We'll keep our beer on ice in our truck and use plastic cups. I'm confident that the worst that will happen is we will get a warning. After tailgating for the past couple of years, I highly doubt police will be running around trying to ticket people without giving a warning first. Best case scenario is they do a few walk byes to make sure that things are in control and like others have said, an organic tailgate begins to grow and we make due until a larger, sanctioned tailgate returns as crowds increase.Holy cow, who runs your city, Heinrich Himmler? Don't know why you need a sanctioned tailgate, if you're already doing it, unless you want to get rid of whatever headaches you have organizing it.

[Jumbo]

Good idea and best of luck to you. Which one is "our group"? Argofans.com? Will you be coordinating with any of the other fan groups?

Our group consists of four guys who like to barbecue and listen to classic rock..........oh yea, and watch some football.

[smokeslet'sgo]

Our group consists of four guys who like to barbecue and listen to classic rock..........oh yea, and watch some football.

Room for one more in that group? lol jk

[dmont]

We are chatting about it, but I don't really think a consensus has come around yet.

Good luck, I hope you all work something else.

[Neely2005]

Holy cow, who runs your city, Heinrich Himmler? Don't know why you need a sanctioned tailgate, if you're already doing it, unless you want to get rid of whatever headaches you have organizing it.

It's not only the city it's also the provincial liquor laws.

[RB957]

It's not only the city it's also the provincial liquor laws.

Never mind the liquor laws.... after July 1st, wait until the wacky tabacky starts coming out!! :D

[PullTogether73]

Had my call this morning with the Argonauts regarding the credit on my account.

I didn't want to upgrade (upgraded from last year already and happy with my new seat this year) so I said to leave the credit on my account to use toward my season ticket for 2019.
I was advised that management hadn't approved that use of the credit yet - still to be discussed.

If this credit can only be used this year, I will be calling back for a refund.
Why would management not approve using the credit toward next year's season tickets?:ohno:
To me that is something you lock in - someone who not only is not asking for a refund, but is indicating that he will be back next year.

Heads up to anyone who is planning to do as I am (or was).

[Will]

I don't understand it either. They have your money.

If ticket prices were to increase or decrease for 2019 then you would just re-visit the credit in a year's time.

[Neely2005]

Had my call this morning with the Argonauts regarding the credit on my account.

I didn't want to upgrade (upgraded from last year already and happy with my new seat this year) so I said to leave the credit on my account to use toward my season ticket for 2019.
I was advised that management hadn't approved that use of the credit yet - still to be discussed.

If this credit can only be used this year, I will be calling back for a refund.
Why would management not approve using the credit toward next year's season tickets?:ohno:
To me that is something you lock in - someone who not only is not asking for a refund, but is indicating that he will be back next year.

Heads up to anyone who is planning to do as I am (or was).

That makes absolutely no sense. Between this and people being told different things about refunds they seem pretty disorganized.

[paulwoods13]

I have received written confirmation from my ticket rep that my credit can be applied to 2019 season's tickets, so I suspect anyone told otherwise has been given erroneous info.

[RB957]

I have received written confirmation from my ticket rep that my credit can be applied to 2019 season's tickets, so I suspect anyone told otherwise has been given erroneous info.

I was told I could use the credit for next year's seats. I think part of the issue is that they are using MLSE reps who have little or no regular dealings with the Argos. According to her email signature, the rep who called me was an account executive with Raptors 905. So I think paulwoods13 is correct. Not everyone has the same info.


On a different issue... last year the Argos had a promotion or STH benefit that if you brought in another STH, you would receive a discount on your own tickets. I did bring someone into the fold, and advised the rep who called me today, who was clearly unaware. It has been passed on to the Argos to deal with, but I sure hope they honour their commitment.

[Argo57]

I was told I could use the credit for next year's seats. I think part of the issue is that they are using MLSE reps who have little or no regular dealings with the Argos. According to her email signature, the rep who called me was an account executive with Raptors 905. So I think paulwoods13 is correct. Not everyone has the same info.


On a different issue... last year the Argos had a promotion or STH benefit that if you brought in another STH, you would receive a discount on your own tickets. I did bring someone into the fold, and advised the rep who called me today, who was clearly unaware. It has been passed on to the Argos to deal with, but I sure hope they honour their commitment.

Seems we are getting different stories depending who we talk to, unprofessional at best.

[Shatto]

The rep who called me was pleasant, professional and knowledgeable. The first question I asked was, how long he had been an Argo rep and he replied, "one year". So, to some extent, he did have an understanding of the Argos and their fans.

It appears that decisions are being made on the fly, without enough time or consideration being taken to ensure the decisions are well founded and meet the fans' expectations. For example, if it is true that the upper east side is just being kept vacant without appropriate tarping, it will just leave a very unattractive sea of red, advertising to the TV camera the lack of attendance. It also helps explain how the tailgating decision was made, especially when the only justification appears to be Manning's view that it seem forced and cost too much. He may be correct but some objective detailed factual justification would have been nice.

The reduction of the ticket pricing is appreciated and hopefully this approach will increase attendance but was there any type of market analysis including a polling of present and potential fans that a price drop would result more people purchasing tickets? Or is it simply, this is what TFC ticket buyers pay, therefore it must be correct? A little more professionalism in the decision making wouldn't go astray.

[AngeloV]

In reading all these differences of responses from the reps, to me, it has become a major topic for face to face discussion. Sadly, the Argos have yet to officially announce a date for the ST holders town hall. Training camp starts in about a month. This needs to get done ASAP.

[Will]

I was told I could use the credit for next year's seats. I think part of the issue is that they are using MLSE reps who have little or no regular dealings with the Argos. According to her email signature, the rep who called me was an account executive with Raptors 905. So I think paulwoods13 is correct. Not everyone has the same info.


On a different issue... last year the Argos had a promotion or STH benefit that if you brought in another STH, you would receive a discount on your own tickets. I did bring someone into the fold, and advised the rep who called me today, who was clearly unaware. It has been passed on to the Argos to deal with, but I sure hope they honour their commitment.

This was something that Manning mentioned that they could shift MLSE resources around, but what good is it if the ones who have been shifted are not fully briefed on what is and what is not a permissible use of this credit?

[AngeloV]

I exchanged PM's with an MLSE employee today, and was told that the team can't keep your money in regards to the credit. If you choose not to use the credit for an upgrade, or to purchase additional tickets, you can either get your credit card reversal, or use it towards next season's tickets. Sadly I also asked about the town hall. There is no guarantee the Argos will have a town hall before the start of the season despite the fact that the email for the Randy Ambrosie town hall from the team clearly stated there will be one. I'm trying to find an email address for Bill Manning himself, but all I can find online to this point is the one when he was in charge of Real Salt Lake in MLS. If anyone comes across his current MLSE email, I suggest we share it and everyone send him an email with our concerns. I get the feeling talking to our reps will only go so far.

[paulwoods13]

I will be very surprised if there is a town hall this year. Hope I'm wrong, but it just feels to me like this is not happening.

[Shatto]

Communication doesn't seem to have a high priority with management. I also suspect there will be no Town Hall event this year.

[Mightygoose]

I exchanged PM's with an MLSE employee today, and was told that the team can't keep your money in regards to the credit. If you choose not to use the credit for an upgrade, or to purchase additional tickets, you can either get your credit card reversal, or use it towards next season's tickets. Sadly I also asked about the town hall. There is no guarantee the Argos will have a town hall before the start of the season despite the fact that the email for the Randy Ambrosie town hall from the team clearly stated there will be one. I'm trying to find an email address for Bill Manning himself, but all I can find online to this point is the one when he was in charge of Real Salt Lake in MLS. If anyone comes across his current MLSE email, I suggest we share it and everyone send him an email with our concerns. I get the feeling talking to our reps will only go so far.

Is there a reason why the town hall has to take place before the start of the season? Some teams in other leagues have theirs towards the end, heck even hold it during the bye week.

Considering there was change in ownership and management this off season just like 2 years ago, I'm willing to be patient while they integrate into MLSE and people settle in their new roles.

[AngeloV]

Is there a reason why the town hall has to take place before the start of the season? Some teams in other leagues have theirs towards the end, heck even hold it during the bye week.

Considering there was change in ownership and management this off season just like 2 years ago, I'm willing to be patient while they integrate into MLSE and people settle in their new roles.

I highly doubt they would ever do it during the season. Looks like another cost cutting thing.

[OV Argo]

Relax; these are clearly super-expert, so well versed in the nuances of Canadian football & Argo history people running the Argos now. Frick = probably over-qualified. Patience and have some faith.

;o)