GAME THREAD / Week 6 / Winnipeg @ Toronto

[mchesher03]

Would sure be nice to get back in the win column.

IMO, very doable and I think Franklin puts some pieces together and we get some nice offensive output this game.

Defensively, key on Harris and make Nicholls try to beat us. As others have posted on another thread, I’m not fussed about Darvin Adams – agree that he’s a tad overrated.

[OV Argo]

[QUOTE=mchesher03;129368]Would sure be nice to get back in the win column.

IMO, very doable and I think Franklin puts some pieces together and we get some nice offensive output this game.

Defensively, key on Harris and make Nicholls try to beat us. As others have posted on another thread, I’m not fussed about Darvin Adams – agree that he’s a tad overrated.


Nichols did not look good against BC - threw some bad picks; agreed that key is to try to limit Harris - guy is a beast of a RB and the focal point of their offence; but they have some good receiver talent (over-rated Adams still has some big-play capability) and the Argo D-backfield has not looked that good in coverage.

Key to this game will be Franklin and the Argo offence showing some smarts to move the ball and keep time of possession up. Bomber D has some talent, but is not that great and can beaten.

[gilthethrill]

Winnipeg Defence tends to give up yardage similar to a drunk guy handing out Halloween candy. Franklin has a big game as does Wilder. Argos win.

[Argo]

IMO, if the Argos, at home, cannot win this one => definitely deepening doo-doo.

[RB957]

IMO, if the Argos, at home, cannot win this one => definitely deepening doo-doo.

I agree. They should win at home. Stopping Harris is key, because he seems to play well against us. If the Argos do win, they then face the same situation as they did against Edmonton. If we end up splitting this head to head match-up, the problem is that the Argos are no farther ahead and we would just be treading water. It would be great if we could take both games from Winnipeg and start building some real momentum. Taking both games is going to be difficult.

[jerrym]

If the Argos can keep the Bomber offence from splurging in points, as they did against Edmonton in the last two games, they have a good chance of winning.

[macspectrum]

[QUOTE=mchesher03;129368]Would sure be nice to get back in the win column.

IMO, very doable and I think Franklin puts some pieces together and we get some nice offensive output this game.

Defensively, key on Harris and make Nicholls try to beat us. As others have posted on another thread, I’m not fussed about Darvin Adams – agree that he’s a tad overrated.


Nichols did not look good against BC - threw some bad picks; agreed that key is to try to limit Harris - guy is a beast of a RB and the focal point of their offence; but they have some good receiver talent (over-rated Adams still has some big-play capability) and the Argo D-backfield has not looked that good in coverage.

Key to this game will be Franklin and the Argo offence showing some smarts to move the ball and keep time of possession up. Bomber D has some talent, but is not that great and can beaten.

as for argo d - i think the zone def called by the dc is to blame - argo d is far too lax in zone - the argo d is full of ball hawks - let 'em go do it !

[mchesher03]

Is there not a hard deadline on when the depth chart has to be out? Maybe I’m just antsy but we’re within 48 hours of game time here.

[AngeloV]

Is there not a hard deadline on when the depth chart has to be out? Maybe I’m just antsy but we’re within 48 hours of game time here.


It's 24 hours, but even that is not set in stone. Game day roster moves can be made up to 1 hour prior to kickoff.

[lazycro]

Nice to see Barry Hassan getting in the lineup this week.

6'0 - 311

[mchesher03]

anyhow see it is out now for what it's worth.

[Shatto]

The defensive backfield not filling me with a lot of confidence and with Ball out Harris may have an easier time of it. Notice that Noel has taken the starter's spot from Ralph at RB/SB with Smith moving to boundary WR.

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Full Depth. <a href="https://t.co/KxPuGeMeRG">pic.twitter.com/KxPuGeMeRG</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/1020325263928852480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 20, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[lazycro]

The defensive backfield not filling me with a lot of confidence and with Ball out Harris may have an easier time of it. Notice that Noel has taken the starter's spot from Ralph at RB/SB with Smith moving to boundary WR.

Hoping to see Barry bring his hustle like he did in McMaster, not sure why he was placed on suspended list at the start of the season.

[paulwoods13]

Glad to see Noel moves to slot, and Smith listed as starting at WR. Curious to see how Washington does at lb. He looked great in preseason but I thought Dowling looked good last week. I'm not able to attend the game or watch it unless I can somehow defeat some streaming and wifi issues so I hope you guys will provide a lot of commentary and notes. I fully expect Argos to win and have a funny feeling it might not be close.

[lazycro]

Just a note, in case anyone isn't aware of it, "The Board of Governors of Exhibition Place voted today to lock out members of IATSE Local 58 as of 12:01 a.m. this Friday."

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/canadian-national-exhibition-faces-uncertainty-this-summer-as-exhibition-place-board-of-governors-lock-out-longstanding-technical-and-stagecraft-workers-688659651.html


Possible picket lines

[gilthethrill]

Hoping to see Barry bring his hustle like he did in McMaster, not sure why he was placed on suspended list at the start of the season.

I had forgotten about Barry. Looks like he is dressing ahead of Finley. I guess Trestman expects Winnipeg to run the ball and want a bigger body in the interior. Finley is built more like a DE at 260.

[lazycro]

I had forgotten about Barry. Looks like he is dressing ahead of Finley. I guess Trestman expects Winnipeg to run the ball and want a bigger body in the interior. Finley is built more like a DE at 260.

I don't fully understand how the transactions work when he was suspended, but then removed from active roster, added to practice roster and now we're seeing him on the starting lineup.

I'm not a GM for a reason

[Joe Barnes]

Just a note, in case anyone isn't aware of it, "The Board of Governors of Exhibition Place voted today to lock out members of IATSE Local 58 as of 12:01 a.m. this Friday."

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/canadian-national-exhibition-faces-uncertainty-this-summer-as-exhibition-place-board-of-governors-lock-out-longstanding-technical-and-stagecraft-workers-688659651.html


Possible picket lines

Keep in mind, these people have been bargaining in good faith and are not on strike. They've been locked out. An important difference!

[ArgoZ]

Just a note, in case anyone isn't aware of it, "The Board of Governors of Exhibition Place voted today to lock out members of IATSE Local 58 as of 12:01 a.m. this Friday."

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/canadian-national-exhibition-faces-uncertainty-this-summer-as-exhibition-place-board-of-governors-lock-out-longstanding-technical-and-stagecraft-workers-688659651.html


Possible picket lines

Replacement "parking attendants"?

[lazycro]

Keep in mind, these people have been bargaining in good faith and are not on strike. They've been locked out. An important difference!

Yep! It's unfortunately probably MLSE as the cause.

I don't know if these guys do anything with the field but will be more of set up of stages, stands etc I believe.

[paulwoods13]

I had forgotten about Barry. Looks like he is dressing ahead of Finley. I guess Trestman expects Winnipeg to run the ball and want a bigger body in the interior. Finley is built more like a DE at 260.

Two NATs have to sit this out. I'm guessing Barry and Sackey draw short straws this week.

[Wobbler]

This is not the LB corps I was expecting us to field at this point in the season. I have a bad feeling about this one...

[halifaxguy]

Yep! It's unfortunately probably MLSE as the cause.

I don't know if these guys do anything with the field but will be more of set up of stages, stands etc I believe.

What does it have to do with MLSE? these are city unionized workers and their beef is with the city and the Mayor.

“Led by Mayor (John) Tory, however, the city risks ruining the CNE by locking us out of Exhibition Place,” said Antheunis.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/07/20/picket-lines-expected-at-exhibition-place-after-board-locks-out-union-ahead-of-cne.html

[ArgoGabe22]

Sackey and Ralph are the scratches

[dmont]

.

Everyone enjoying the vintage 2016 Argonauts? Spotting Winnipeg 15 points in the first five minutes and this game seems over already.

Abdul Kenneh is the culprit so far. Bad coverage and braindead offside penalty lead to two touchdowns.

Martese Jackson fumbling and losing the kickoff makes me want to jump out a window.

Also, Wilder's running like a wimp so far. Could have picked up 4 at least by charging straight ahead, instead tries to avoid contact running the width of the field for a loss.

Pfeffer misses a 20 yard field goal, true to form.

Rodney Smith looks good. About the only bright spot.

[OV Argo]

Argos totally out-classed in the first half = embarrasing and especially at home.

The D has many holes, and is not near good enough; and the Trestman offence looks boring, predictable and wimpy.

Changes are needed; big-time.

[lazycro]

Wilder is all in his head this year. It's all mental. I'm thinking bout putting him in touch with a friend of mine who specializes in that shiz

[dmont]

.

We have zero containment on Harris and Demski. They're getting to the outside no problem and gaining 10+ yards every time.

Their o line is dominating our d line. Nichols has all day.

Looked like Heath blew his assignment on that pass to the wide open bomber.

[jerrym]

Turn on the game to see the Argos fumble and then recover a fumble that turns into a TD on the next play and then discover the score is now 35-20 after the two pointer. Seems it was good to miss what happened earlier! <script async="" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><iframe scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.7a5ca036ea5299f1d2ebb2234731e35e.htm l?origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.argofans.com&settingsEndpoint=https%3A%2F%2Fsyndication.twitter .com%2Fsettings" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;"></iframe><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" title="Twitter analytics iframe" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: none;"></iframe>

[lazycro]

Pretty disappointed with the people from Winnipeg here today cheering for Winnipeg but trying to start fights

[jerrym]

Well that hope didn't last long because of the Bomber interception.

[Argo]

The Argos are the worst team in the league.

[jerrym]

Hopefully the Argos did not lose Van Zeyl for future games due to injury.

[jerrym]

161 yards for the #2 all-time Canadian rusher, Andrew Harris. He showed why he is so good but the Argo DL gets an assist in his career single game rushing high.

[Stevoman]

Pfeffer needs to improve on field goals or else be replaced.

Wilder needs to attack the line and run straight forward more instead of so many side steps.

Heath was beaten lots in the first half but seemed better in the second

Franklin was better in the first half but threw a bad pick in the 4th quarter. I'd also love to see him run with the ball more especially on a day like today where it was needed to keep the defence from blitzing so often

When your offence scores a total of 4 points all game, that's a major fail.

[R.J]

Yet another embarrassing loss for the Argos. At least there weren't too many around to see it. I'm hoping McCluster replaces Wilder next week - lots of moves need to get made IMO.

[jerrym]

Pfeffer needs to improve on field goals or else be replaced.



Although his punting is fine, Pfeffer needs to be replaced as a FG kicker now as a low-scoring team like the Argos cannot continue to throw away chip shot FGs.

[Argos1983]

The good thing is almost no one saw the game at BMO as it was the lowest attended regular season game there ever. I’m sure a Thursday night against Ottawa will be another sad draw too....I appreciate the kids day effort (although it seems like a league wide thing not an Argos thing per se) but charging $25 for a “kids day” ticket (even with a hot dog/drink) is misguided - this should be a buy 2 adults and 2 kids tickets for $50 total including drinks and popcorn (which cost very little) — get the next generation interested in your product —- clearly they are missing the mark even at the present price points.....the Ex game with all its previous promos will sell ok as will Hamilton and Sask but to me they are still nowhere near growing our market this year after a GC winning year which tells me a lot about the state of things in Argoland.

[jerrym]

I was going to discuss the holes I saw on offence and defence, but what I saw in the last twenty minutes of the game was simply one big hole covering every aspect of the Argo team.

[Argofan_1000]

I was going to discuss the holes I saw on offence and defence, but what I saw in the last twenty minutes of the game was simply one big hole covering every aspect of the Argo team.

So team is BAD - got it - no desire - no hussle today - question - where are all the fans? It can't be, in a city of 6M we can't get 20K out for a game. I just can't understand this.

[dmont]

.

Just like 2016, I'm really not liking this Stubler-style "bend but dont break" defense. Im no great football mind, but it seems to me this type of defense is so complicated that you need the right/awesome defensive players to make it work. Otherwise it's a disaster. I dont think our secondary is good enough and our linebackers are too depleted. Second-down defense is terrible. If I were the opposing offense, I would throw the ball all day because we give up at least 10 yards on most second downs.

The story of the 2018 Argos is underperforming veterans. Heath and Yell came in with high billing but have not lived up to the hype. Kanneh was a late addition, but I dont have confidence in him either. I'm liking Trumaine Washington and thought Dowling didnt look out of place last game.

On offense, the o line is good (not great) at pass protection, but they're not doing enough to open up the run game. Franklin seems to have adequate (if not ample) time to get the ball out.

I like the emergence of Rodney Smith, although I dont know if he represents that burner needed to stretch the defense. I thought Williams improved today, not with a ton of catches but he was where he needed to be and drew a key penalty.

D-line is not getting enough pressure. Chalk it up to injuries and personnel losses (butler).

The Pfeffer situation needs to get resolved.

I think another season like 2016 would be a long-term disaster. I dont think it's a coincidence that attendance fell off a cliff that year. It was just a horrible team to watch and the games felt out of reach by the end of the first quarter. I dont understand how this team can play respectably on the road, but be completely out of sorts at home.

[smokeslet'sgo]

The good thing is almost no one saw the game at BMO as it was the lowest attended regular season game there ever.

I believe this is actually the smallest crowd in the teams' entire history in the modern CFL, not counting pre-season games. I've still been to Jays games with much smaller crowds though (actual people not announced attendance)

[Will]

Offence

Bad

- Why was Franklin forced to try and be a pocket pass today?

Defence

Bad

Special Teams

Bad

Trestman is no longer blameless either. All three phases of his football team are awful right now.

Neither the offence or defence have any imagination. Opponents are not fooled.

[smokeslet'sgo]

.I think another season like 2016 would be a long-term disaster. I dont think it's a coincidence that attendance fell off a cliff that year. It was just a horrible team to watch and the games felt out of reach by the end of the first quarter. I dont understand how this team can play respectably on the road, but be completely out of sorts at home.

That first game blowout against Hamilton at the highly-anticipated and hyped BMO opener sealed the Argos' fate I believe. Almost 25,000 people packing the stadium, a fantastic atmosphere, an actually pro-Argo crowd against Hamilton for once, and they played a terrible game and many people were gone by halftime, never to return again. If the Argos had won that game, things might be different. Maybe not selling out, but 18-20k crowds or so. I think that one game basically ruined this team. It was more important than any Grey Cup game

[R.J]

Offence

Bad

- Why was Franklin forced to try and be a pocket pass today?

Defence

Bad

Special Teams

Bad

Trestman is no longer blameless either. All three phases of his football team are awful right now.

Neither the offence or defence have any imagination. Opponents are not fooled.
Don Argo, I think you know the answer to the question.

[Will]

Don Argo, I think you know the answer to the question.

BTW, McCluster replaces Jackson IMO.

[Argo57]

.

Just like 2016, I'm really not liking this Stubler-style "bend but dont break" defense. Im no great football mind, but it seems to me this type of defense is so complicated that you need the right/awesome defensive players to make it work. Otherwise it's a disaster. I dont think our secondary is good enough and our linebackers are too depleted. Second-down defense is terrible. If I were the opposing offense, I would throw the ball all day because we give up at least 10 yards on most second downs.

The story of the 2018 Argos is underperforming veterans. Heath and Yell came in with high billing but have not lived up to the hype. Kanneh was a late addition, but I dont have confidence in him either. I'm liking Trumaine Washington and thought Dowling didnt look out of place last game.

On offense, the o line is good (not great) at pass protection, but they're not doing enough to open up the run game. Franklin seems to have adequate (if not ample) time to get the ball out.

I like the emergence of Rodney Smith, although I dont know if he represents that burner needed to stretch the defense. I thought Williams improved today, not with a ton of catches but he was where he needed to be and drew a key penalty.

D-line is not getting enough pressure. Chalk it up to injuries and personnel losses (butler).

The Pfeffer situation needs to get resolved.

I think another season like 2016 would be a long-term disaster. I dont think it's a coincidence that attendance fell off a cliff that year. It was just a horrible team to watch and the games felt out of reach by the end of the first quarter. I dont understand how this team can play respectably on the road, but be completely out of sorts at home.

Well summarized.
Argos track record following Grey Cup victories not great, coaching and player turnover seems to bite this franchise after winning a championship.
Corey Chamblin sorely missed at this point, guys really bought into his schemes last season, don’t get the same sense with Archer as DC.
Kanneh’s brain cramp left him 10 yards behind Winnipeg’s receiver on the first TD, add poor tackling, no pass rush and poor coverage by the rest of the defensive backfield and here we are.
Find a new kicker period, this team nowhere near good enough to give up sure points through inept FG kicking.
O-line mediocre at best, Wilder reverting to early 2017 form and a receiving group that cannot stretch the field add to the disastrous start to the season.
Franklin not blameless in all of this but you can see the talent and potential he possesses, hopefully his development doesn’t get derailed through all of this.

[R.J]

BTW, McCluster replaces Jackson IMO.
I was talking about forcing Franklin to stay in the pocket - Trestman is the answer.

Maybe McCluster does replace Jackson, but Wilder doesn't deserve a free pass. I get that the oline is playing horribly, but Wilder is making even worse decisions because he's not very good up the gut. IMO it looks like he avoids running north/south unless he has space. I still think he reminds me of Chevon Walker.

[Argo57]

I was talking about forcing Franklin to stay in the pocket - Trestman is the answer.

Maybe McCluster does replace Jackson, but Wilder doesn't deserve a free pass. I get that the oline is playing horribly, but Wilder is making even worse decisions because he's not very good up the gut. IMO it looks like he avoids running north/south unless he has space. I still think he reminds me of Chevon Walker.

Wilder looks like he did early last season.

[R.J]

Wilder looks like he did early last season.
And in the playoffs.

I've been saying for quite some time now that a runningback's primary job should be running the ball, but coaches seem to think it's blocking at #1 and pass catching at #2. Yeah, this is a "pass first" league, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the stronger offensive teams almost always have a strong run game.

[doubleblue]

Beautiful day for football, even the East side wouldn't have got scalded today. Don't know why 20,000 people will come to the soccer and Blue Jay games and not the Argos. Different bunch I get it. I would think there would be 20,000 diehards in the area instead of 10-12,000.

What changes does Trestman make for next friday? I would think McCluster in for Jackson. Bring Waters back for field goals. Smith should stay in at WR. Hope Van Zeyl isn't too badley injured.

Defense needs Bear Woods back in the middle. Maybe Tuggle could get more of a pass rush than Davis at DE, or as someone has suggested give Wynn a shot there. Opposing offenses are just playing pitch and catch against this laid back defense. Veteran DB's but QB's have too much time with no pass rush to speak of.
Trestman said this was a different team, but I don't think he was thinking it was this different.

[lazycro]

Very disappointed in the lack of use over Barry on D

[macspectrum]

Offence

Bad

- Why was Franklin forced to try and be a pocket pass today?

Defence

Bad

Special Teams

Bad

Trestman is no longer blameless either. All three phases of his football team are awful right now.

Neither the offence or defence have any imagination. Opponents are not fooled.

trestman needs to stop loving players and start yelling at them

[macspectrum]

Beautiful day for football, even the East side wouldn't have got scalded today. Don't know why 20,000 people will come to the soccer and Blue Jay games and not the Argos. Different bunch I get it. I would think there would be 20,000 diehards in the area instead of 10-12,000.

What changes does Trestman make for next friday? I would think McCluster in for Jackson. Bring Waters back for field goals. Smith should stay in at WR. Hope Van Zeyl isn't too badley injured.

Defense needs Bear Woods back in the middle. Maybe Tuggle could get more of a pass rush than Davis at DE, or as someone has suggested give Wynn a shot there. Opposing offenses are just playing pitch and catch against this laid back defense. Veteran DB's but QB's have too much time with no pass rush to speak of.
Trestman said this was a different team, but I don't think he was thinking it was this different.

play calls on d need to be more aggressive
more blitz and more man to man
zone d is getting killed
db are ball hawks - let em go after the ball - sure they will get beat but they will get knockdowns, int and swag !

[Bruro]

Time to face the bitter truth. Today was the smallest crowd to watch an Argo game at home in the post war era (exception of preseason and home games scheduled outside Toronto). 10,844 Thats right people. 10,844. These are the grey cup champions. 10,844! Beautiful aftrrnoon for football. 10,844! Let that sink in. Thats getting close to Las Vegas Posse numbers. Lets put this in perspective. 2017 the average attendance of the Toronto Wolfpack (rugby in case you never heard of them) was just shy of 7,000 at Lamport Stadium. 10,844! It surely rubs off on the players as well. This reminds me of the Alouettes circa 1986.is it time to pull the plug? 10,844! Thoughts? Perhaps the franchise can be moved to Halifax. What is the seating capacity at U of Guelph? Western University?

[R.J]

Time to face the bitter truth. Today was the smallest crowd to watch an Argo game at home in the post war era (exception of preseason and home games scheduled outside Toronto). 10,988. Thats right people. 10,988. These are the grey cup champions. 10,988! Beautiful aftrrnoon for football. 10,988! Let that sink in. Thats gettinf close to Las Vegas Posse numbers. 10,988! Even Lamport Stadium that wouldnt be a sellout. It surely rubs off on the players as well. This reminds me of the Alouettes circa 1986.is it time to pull the plug? Thoughts?
mikem/slimjim, you're back already ?

FYI, Lamport capacity: 9,600.

[Argo]

and in the playoffs.

I've been saying for quite some time now that a runningback's primary job should be running the ball.

^^^ t h i s ^^^

[Bruro]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.

[Argo57]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.

I’m sure future television rights owners would pay millions without a franchise in Canada’s largest city?

[PullTogether73]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.

Yup.
Utterly dismal attendance.
There's no way to talk this away.

It's not management not trying.
They have put together a good in-stadium experience IMO.
They have slashed ticket prices.
They have offered discounts to STHs of other MLSE teams.
They have had a flash sale of discounted tickets to "Friends & Family".
I can only think of more advertising as another tactic to increase attendance.

But this situation is untenable.
I am not optimistic about the survival of this franchise in Toronto anymore.

[Argofan_1000]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.

I can't even pronounce your name so you must be a TFC supporter. It would be better if you didn't post here

[Wobbler]

It won't look as bad tomorrow, people.

[ArgoZ]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.

No one bashes you. They do put up resistance to your non stop agenda that the Argos must/will die. What exactly do you want? Us, Argos fans to agree? Will you be satisfied only when they do cease to operate? I don't get it, especially on a "fan site".

[Shatto]

Normally after a game, one can point to several pros and cons of the game. Not this time---it was all negative.

Offense was terrible--couldn't run the ball, couldn't hold off the Winnipeg D line, receivers seldom getting separation, poor play calling, QB never moved the pocket, receivers can't stretch the field etc
Defense wasn't much better--DB's played very soft most of the time, little pressure on the QB, allowed Harris to run at will etc. Looks like they miss Chamblin far more than we expected.

So far we have criticised certain players but it is coming to a point where the coaching has accept some of the responsibility.

The crowd was extremely disappointing. Last year, even though the attendance was poor for many games, there was the beginning of a buzz surrounding the team and their activities. Cancelling the tailgating now looks to be an even bigger blunder than we first thought.

[Wobbler]

It seems kinda early to hit the panic button.

- Franklin's third start was poor, but he played pretty well in the first two games. It's early to expect the offense to be built around him.

- The receiving corps *may* be a serious liability without Posey and (IMO) with Green's decline, but if we get Coombs back pretty soon it could make a big difference.

- Some magical combination of OL/JWJ/etc. confidence and/or game plan yields a productive ground game. It happened last year and it can happen again if we can just figure it out.

Having said that... I'm impatient too. I would like to hear (or better yet see) that the staff is working on these problems and has some good ideas.

[jerrym]

The score flatters the Argos' effort. The really scary thing about the low attendance is what will it be after this disaster?

[R.J]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.
Yup let's just either fold the team or move 'em to Halifax, then bring the NFL to Toronto.

The crowd was extremely disappointing. Last year, even though the attendance was poor for many games, there was the beginning of a buzz surrounding the team and their activities. Cancelling the tailgating now looks to be an even bigger blunder than we first thought.
30-40 cars tailgating has been the norm so far this season, and based on reports it was in the 30-40 range the previous two season. I'm not following how tailgating is the answer.

[Shatto]

With respect the difference from last year to this year is three fold.

1) The number of cars last year always appeared to be much more than 30-40. On the one occasion I took a rough count it was well over 100 vehicles.
2) It was an official Argo event and was advertised and publicised as such, getting good press in the media
3) It was creating a buzz. Folks who were casual fans were asking about it. It appeared to be gaining momentum as the season progressed.

On a personal note, on several occasions we took the extended family down to the game and the pre-game tailgate. Those extra 8 people attended the game. This year that hasn't happened.

I commend the folks who have continued with an unofficial tailgate and plan to join them in the future. However, by necessity it can't be publicized by MLSE or the Argos. It was this buzz that made attending the game more attractive to many. If we want to see increased attendance a buzz must be created to sell the casual fans. Maybe there are other ways to create a buzz that the PR folks can play on but eliminating the one thing that was creating a buzz wasn't a smart marketing move. Effective organizations add to things that appeal to potential ticket buyers not reduce them. Official tailgating may not be the answer but it could have been one of them.

[ArgoRavi]

It seems kinda early to hit the panic button.

- Franklin's third start was poor, but he played pretty well in the first two games. It's early to expect the offense to be built around him.

- The receiving corps *may* be a serious liability without Posey and (IMO) with Green's decline, but if we get Coombs back pretty soon it could make a big difference.

- Some magical combination of OL/JWJ/etc. confidence and/or game plan yields a productive ground game. It happened last year and it can happen again if we can just figure it out.

Having said that... I'm impatient too. I would like to hear (or better yet see) that the staff is working on these problems and has some good ideas.

I really don't think that Green is declining but I would agree with what you have said otherwise. Additionally, the problems on defence start up front. They have to find a way to get pressure with their front 4; they just have to.

[Ron]

Yup.
Utterly dismal attendance.
There's no way to talk this away.

It's not management not trying.
They have put together a good in-stadium experience IMO.
They have slashed ticket prices.
They have offered discounts to STHs of other MLSE teams.
They have had a flash sale of discounted tickets to "Friends & Family".
I can only think of more advertising as another tactic to increase attendance.

But this situation is untenable.
I am not optimistic about the survival of this franchise in Toronto anymore.

The team said it would take a decade. 5 weeks in and people are bitching already. If it isn't improved in 8 years ... then bitch about it.

[Ron]

Offence

Bad

- Why was Franklin forced to try and be a pocket pass today?

Defence

Bad

Special Teams

Bad

Trestman is no longer blameless either. All three phases of his football team are awful right now.

Neither the offence or defence have any imagination. Opponents are not fooled.

Finally some clarity. About time Trestman gets his share of blame here. Turning Franklin into a Ricky ray is not going to work. Worst thing is seeing so many posts online blaming Franklin.

With Franklin in "Ray" mode the defenses can stuff JWJ and force Franklin to beat them from the pocket. He won't have great success and teams know it. Trestman is to blame for no roll outs, no option runs with JWJ. Make defenses respect his legs to open the pass. Teams were not able to over commit to stop JWJ because Ray would pick them apart. Franklin right now is not a threat to do that.

[paulwoods13]

Good thing I didn't see this one, I gather.

Obviously I have nothing to add except to second Ron's reminder that the rebuild of this business will take years, not weeks. A low-attended game inevitably brings all the "fold or move" catcallers out of the woodwork. Ignore them.

On the field, who knows the answers but hopefully Popp and Trestman did not suddenly become blind or stupid. If changes need to be made, I'd like to think they will endeavour to make them.

[Argos1983]

No one is suggesting that this will not take years to fix - but if by the end of this year the average attendance for 2018 is less than 2017 (I would have hoped for a moderate uptick - maybe average 500-1000 more people per game considering you had an off season of slashed prices and a GC champion to sell) and considering the number of tickets that were pre-sold as ST was surely higher in June 2018 then it was in June 2017 - then that is clearly not a good sign that walk-up ticket buying or engaging the non hard-core fan (the ones who go to 1 or 2 games a year or are trying your product) is surely dwindling......whatever it is, it's not working and the fact that they can't even draw the same as last year is quite sad --- I am sure Ottawa will be a poorly attended game on a Thursday - the Ex game and the Hamilton and Sask games will sell ok with "visiting" fans helping to sell tickets and the last two games might be really poorly attended if the Argos are out of it, although they may sell some tickets if Manziel sees the field and the ensuing hype creates some interest.......although I did see them advertising $25 tickets for the Family Day Game of July 21st on TV tonight about 3 hours after the game was over.....nice job!

[Scooter McCray]

Everyone bashes me for being an Argo cynic but ive been a life long fan since 1982. Poor management decisions have driven this franchise into the ground. For the sake of the CFL we should seriously consider either folding the franchise or moving it to a smaller Canadian city that would support good quality football. Today was embarrassing. Even TSNs camera angles couldnt hide it. Time to talk about the elephant in the room.Until an effort is made to rebuild the fan base with an actual business plan and strategy and executed with the full might of MLSE behind it and that fails there is no way I accept folding or moving this team. Otherwise there will always be the what if question. A third year at BMO is going by without a plan beyond "tarping" and cutting prices which should have been done on day one. A game day experience beyond the game is still not being done.

[Argofan_1000]

The team said it would take a decade. 5 weeks in and people are bitching already. If it isn't improved in 8 years ... then bitch about it.

your right

[Argo57]

Good thing I didn't see this one, I gather.

Obviously I have nothing to add except to second Ron's reminder that the rebuild of this business will take years, not weeks. A low-attended game inevitably brings all the "fold or move" catcallers out of the woodwork. Ignore them.

On the field, who knows the answers but hopefully Popp and Trestman did not suddenly become blind or stupid. If changes need to be made, I'd like to think they will endeavour to make them.

Paul, always using logic to end some good rants (including mine on occasion) please stop it😛

[1971GreyCup]

Until an effort is made to rebuild the fan base with an actual business plan and strategy and executed with the full might of MLSE behind it and that fails there is no way I accept folding or moving this team. Otherwise there will always be the what if question. A third year at BMO is going by without a plan beyond "tarping" and cutting prices which should have been done on day one. A game day experience beyond the game is still not being done.

I agree. I'd love to provide a business plan that says "one decade out, things will be fine." I predict current management is gone in four, maybe five years. But then that's the cynic in me.

I'd love to see investment in the turn around. All I know is that there's a new set of "middle" management. They've stopped doing what was done in the past. No evidence that they've replaced old activities with new activities. Lots of cost savings apparent.

My anecdotal evidence is that when I asked questions on getting a corporate suite, I didn't get a reply. When I followed it up, I got no answers, just an invoice. I didn't pursue it any further. Not surprisingly, no follow up from the Argos on my interest. If that is the level of sales put in for large ticket items is indicative of the process, how can you expect single tickets sales to differ? I am not the least surprised by the attendance numbers.

[Mightygoose]

Yeah. Brutal game on and off the field on all fronts.

Off field. Yes that attendance number is ugly and there's no sugarcoating it.

At the same time management said this will be a long term rebuild and I'll I'm looking for is progress. The first 2 games showed it, yesterday did not.

However it is a new business plan. Last year the ST package included 4 free vouchers per ticket. Also last year there were multiple promos on the upper east side. 2 for 19.97 Doug Flutie night, 15.00 CNE day, most games the rest of the season, they were sold between 12 to 15 dollars. The last 2-3 games there were some groups promos in the lower bowl 12 tickets for 240.00 and 24 tickets for 480.00...these 2 promos included a beer at the tailgate (sponsored by Budweiser).

These promos added thousands to each game so I strongly believe last year's numbers would have been far worse. These padded the numbers but it hurt the ST price integrity.

This season, these promos are gone and aside from a 1 day flash sale, they're not discounting (stub hub doesn't count). The long path to build the crowds back up is to build the season ticket base. MLSE's best move right now IMO is to stay the current course. The fact they announce attendance in stadium...something that wasn't done the past 2 years, suggests to be that's what they'll be doing.

The 2 positives from yesterday are 1) the airhorn issue from last game was dealt with and b) the dog is OK.... can't believe what it's 'owner' did....so glad he/was given a public shaming.

[doubleblue]

Can we point to one positive this year. The ST's went from 3500 to 6000.

[cfl-cis fan]

It seems kinda early to hit the panic button.

- Franklin's third start was poor, but he played pretty well in the first two games. It's early to expect the offense to be built around him.

- The receiving corps *may* be a serious liability without Posey and (IMO) with Green's decline, but if we get Coombs back pretty soon it could make a big difference.

- Some magical combination of OL/JWJ/etc. confidence and/or game plan yields a productive ground game. It happened last year and it can happen again if we can just figure it out.

Having said that... I'm impatient too. I would like to hear (or better yet see) that the staff is working on these problems and has some good ideas.

I would like to hear your opinion on this ........... did Franklin take what the Wpg D was giving him. There were open receivers or were they just too far into the progression !!

[macspectrum]

I would like to hear your opinion on this ........... did Franklin take what the Wpg D was giving him. There were open receivers or were they just too far into the progression !!

i notice that the argo didnt throw even once to cross in the flats
once downfield ond it was a bad throw and picked ff

alo 2nd and 10 and throw a 5 yr pass is a very bad play call
like getting sacked on 3rd down

[macspectrum]

Finally some clarity. About time Trestman gets his share of blame here. Turning Franklin into a Ricky ray is not going to work. Worst thing is seeing so many posts online blaming Franklin.

With Franklin in "Ray" mode the defenses can stuff JWJ and force Franklin to beat them from the pocket. He won't have great success and teams know it. Trestman is to blame for no roll outs, no option runs with JWJ. Make defenses respect his legs to open the pass. Teams were not able to over commit to stop JWJ because Ray would pick them apart. Franklin right now is not a threat to do that.

good analysis !

defensive play calls have been way too passive
defence blitz was way more effective gettig pressure on wun qb
and
argo db are ball hawks so stop with zone and play man to man
sure guys may get beat with man but u get a lot more picks and knockdowns
passive def does NOT work

[macspectrum]

your right

losing home games in horrible fashion is not a fix either
as al davis said; "just win baby !"

[R.J]

Finally some clarity. About time Trestman gets his share of blame here. Turning Franklin into a Ricky ray is not going to work. Worst thing is seeing so many posts online blaming Franklin.

With Franklin in "Ray" mode the defenses can stuff JWJ and force Franklin to beat them from the pocket. He won't have great success and teams know it. Trestman is to blame for no roll outs, no option runs with JWJ. Make defenses respect his legs to open the pass. Teams were not able to over commit to stop JWJ because Ray would pick them apart. Franklin right now is not a threat to do that.
I'm pretty sure I brought this up earlier, but was told Trestman would use Franklin's strengths and doesn't prefer pocket passers. I've said many times that Trestman's offense is very detailed, and doesn't allow "freelancing" - we're seeing it.

Trestman needs to wake up and tweak things. I'd love to see Condell handed the offense, but I don't see that happening.

[R.J]

I don't envy Don Argo and Co. having to do a fancast cast this week - it'll be yet another doozy.

[RB957]

Offence

Bad

- Why was Franklin forced to try and be a pocket pass today?

Defence

Bad

Special Teams

Bad

Trestman is no longer blameless either. All three phases of his football team are awful right now.

Neither the offence or defence have any imagination. Opponents are not fooled.


Pretty much sums it up. One of the worst games I have ever seen. I am going to Winnipeg for the re-match with some friends..... I pray the "away" Argos show up, not the "home team" we saw today. Too early to panic, but we need to turn things around in a hurry.


Can we point to one positive this year. The ST's went from 3500 to 6000.

I bumped into Commissioner Randy Ambrosie coming out of the washroom near sections 123/223. He was very polite and chatted for a few minutes. Not sure how to take it, but he said that yesterday's game had the biggest walk-up crowd of the season. That's a good news/bad news story, because if many of those were first timers, the Argos did nothing on the field to entice them to come back. THe other bad thing is if you have your biggest walk-up crowd, but lowest attendance figure in recent history, that is scary.

Someone else has mentioned it, but they are a different team at home. Maybe the lack of fan support does affect them. But then, even when they get a good crowd, they seem to crap their pants. I don't get it.

[PullTogether73]

I'm pretty sure I brought this up earlier, but was told Trestman would use Franklin's strengths and doesn't prefer pocket passers. I've said many times that Trestman's offense is very detailed, and doesn't allow "freelancing" - we're seeing it.

Trestman needs to wake up and tweak things. I'd love to see Condell handed the offense, but I don't see that happening.

Yup.
I've seen no evidence that Trestman allows his QBs to scramble or run when protection breaks down or receivers are not open.
It's always to find the "outlet" receiver in those situations.
Pathetically, I saw a lot of throws to a receiver in the 2-3 yard range and pray that the receiver can get YACs to gain the first down - which as usual never happened.
Shades of the Milanovich days.
:sick::ohno:

[R.J]

Yup.
I've seen no evidence that Trestman allows his QBs to scramble or run when protection breaks down or receivers are not open.
It's always to find the "outlet" receiver in those situations.
Pathetically, I saw a lot of throws to a receiver in the 2-3 yard range and pray that the receiver can get YACs to gain the first down - which as usual never happened.
Shades of the Milanovich days.
:sick::ohno:
Milanovich quite literally brought Trestman's playbook with him when hired by Barker. I still think Trestman is a much better coach, but he doesn't seem to have much faith in the players right now, and IMO is suffocating them. He has to open things up, and let the player skillset's shine, or we're in for a long season.

[Argo57]

Milanovich quite literally brought Trestman's playbook with him when hired by Barker. I still think Trestman is a much better coach, but he doesn't seem to have much faith in the players right now, and IMO is suffocating them. He has to open things up, and let the player skillset's shine, or we're in for a long season.

The whole team is tight RJ, you can see it plain as day watching the games.
Looks like they’re waiting for the inevitable disaster to happen, they need to turn things around quickly or the season will indeed be a write off.

[Joe Barnes]

Pfeffer has missed way too many FGs and needs to practice more, maybe work on his mechanics. But, as Steve Simmons tweeted, Lamport doesn't have football goalposts! How is he supposed to work on his very technical craft if this is the case? Now, instead of wanting to get rid of him, I feel for Pfeffer!

[Bleeds Double Blue]

It won't look as bad tomorrow, people.

Sunday 1:22 PST. Yes it does Wobbler.

[gilthethrill]

Pfeffer has missed way too many FGs and needs to practice more, maybe work on his mechanics. But, as Steve Simmons tweeted, Lamport doesn't have football goalposts! How is he supposed to work on his very technical craft if this is the case? Now, instead of wanting to get rid of him, I feel for Pfeffer!

Having goal posts at Lamport is simple. When I lived in London, I attended an NAFL game at Labatt Park. The host Silverbacks had mobile FG posts in each end zone. They can be pulled by pickup truck. London defeated the visiting Detroit Diesel on that warm summer night.

[jerrym]

The Argos should not have given up on the running attack so early in the game even if it wasn't initially working as the Bombers then paid no attention to it, making pressuring Franklin with abandon easy. Montreal did not give up on the run even when they were behind 19-1 in the third quarter and it kept the Stampeders from ignoring the run.
Having Franklin move around in the backfield and run a little more would also help.
Giving Bethel-Thompson some playing time towards the end of the game in garbage time might also help if Franklin goes down in future games. But that isn't Trestman's style.

[macspectrum]

trestman needs to learn that not eery qb is anthonny calvillo
some qb can run for yds and roll out to buy time
and wilder needs to be told to run n/s instead e/w - he is not walter payton

[R.J]

And in the playoffs.

I've been saying for quite some time now that a runningback's primary job should be running the ball, but coaches seem to think it's blocking at #1 and pass catching at #2. Yeah, this is a "pass first" league, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the stronger offensive teams almost always have a strong run game.
I should have added that Calgary seems to understand what a runningback's primary job should be, because Cornish, Messam, Jackson, and Williams were/are nowhere near good blockers, but all seem to have success running the ball. Game planning and play calling a good run game works! Their Offensive line no doubt helps, but it's not as though it's filled with All Stars this season. Heck, they lost quite a few All Stars the last few years, but keep chugging along.

[Wobbler]

Sunday 1:22 PST. Yes it does Wobbler.
Darn. Well, try looking on the bright side: there's a good chance we'll end up with the first-overall pick next year!

[R.J]

Darn. Well, try looking on the bright side: there's a good chance we'll end up with the first-overall pick next year!
First overall picks in the CFL don't seem to work out too well lol.

[OV Argo]

Darn. Well, try looking on the bright side: there's a good chance we'll end up with the first-overall pick next year!

Laval`s Matt Betts would sure be nice; he`s already IMO about 10x a better DE than this Davis guy the Argos keep trotting out there to do nothing.

[argolio]

Story of the game for me was that both lines got dominated. Pointing to anything else is like complaining about a broken toaster after a hurricane destroys your house.

Two short weeks coming up before a bye, so we probably won't see a lot of changes. It's up to the players to respond.

Bad week for the East. With three East home games, only a last-minute Ottawa TD prevented a West sweep.