Rothman, Schulich or Harvard Business Schools?

[1971GreyCup]

Which world-class business school will be first to chronicle the destruction of the Argos brand? Only a slow and methodical effort over a 35 to 40 year period could have brought this franchise, and the league it plays it, to its knees.

Recent efforts have been arguably the most effective to date. They include:

1. Fire all senior management and replace with a single part-timer. In the process, lose key support personnel.
2. Slash sales force and support it with a part-time staff.
3. Radically reduce marketing budget. Get those cost controls in place immediately.
4. Halt all pre-existing brand efforts and wait a year or two before instituting replacement efforts.
5. Hire outside think-tank to review the situation and put that on indefinite hold.
6. Ultimately leave it outsiders to attack the local market/customers to place the blame.

Have I missed any key ingredients to this long term?

Waiting for someone to write Jerry Maguire's Mission Statement" https://youtu.be/zDbV2-tZgbg

[PullTogether73]

1. Reduce ticket prices dramatically.
2. Offer discounts to STHs of affiliated franchises.
3. Offer flash ticket sales.
4. Provide discounted ticket prices for children and parents.
5. Hire staff to increase/improve online reports to fill void left by disinterested local media.


Having provided some positive points above, none of it is working (yet) and I am as dismayed with the attendance as you and many Argo fans are with the results.
:sick:

[1971GreyCup]

1. Reduce ticket prices dramatically.
2. Offer discounts to STHs of affiliated franchises.
3. Offer flash ticket sales.
4. Provide discounted ticket prices for children and parents.
5. Hire staff to increase/improve online reports to fill void left by disinterested local media.


Having provided some positive points above, none of it is working (yet) and I am as dismayed with the attendance as you and many Argo fans are with the results.
:sick:

Good input PullTogether73.

[Will]

Schulich a world-class business school? :D

As an alum I can ask.

[Wobbler]

Strange that the Argos are in decline in Toronto, whereas in Vancouver - the most comparable market - the Lions just keep getting stronger...

[R.J]

Weird how some continue to think the Argo brand is a quick fix. It's only year 3 at BMO and year one under MLSE (which came with a new plan).

[AngeloV]

Weird how some continue to think the Argo brand is a quick fix. It's only year 3 at BMO and year one under MLSE (which came with a new plan).

Apparently it's a lot easier to complain than to be patient. I stopped worrying about any off field stuff a while ago.

[Will]

1. Reduce ticket prices dramatically.
2. Offer discounts to STHs of affiliated franchises.
3. Offer flash ticket sales.
4. Provide discounted ticket prices for children and parents.
5. Hire staff to increase/improve online reports to fill void left by disinterested local media.


Having provided some positive points above, none of it is working (yet) and I am as dismayed with the attendance as you and many Argo fans are with the results.
:sick:

People cannot take advantage of that which they know nothing about.

[R.J]

People cannot take advantage of that which they know nothing about.
In the information age it's not that difficult to find out about these things. The issue quite simply is most people don't care.

[gilthethrill]

Apparently it's a lot easier to complain than to be patient. I stopped worrying about any off field stuff a while ago.

No no AV....simply move the Argos to Halifax or KW...that what the experts on other forums suggest. It is just that simple!😁

[Will]

I'm a Schulich MBA grad -- where would you like me to start?

- Porter's Five Forces
- SWOT analysis
- 5 P's of Marketing

I forgot the rest already

[PHArgofan]

Lets not forget Sask was on the brink of collapse. They held telethons to keep the team alive. Look at them now. All is not lost.

MLSE has deep pockets and a desire to succeed. They've done it with TFC and the Raptors. Its year one with them.

it is not a one or two year process. They would know that. If they dont have a Harvard MBA on board im sure they have Rotman or Queens MBA who know the principles too.

[1971GreyCup]

Awfully dumb of the rest of the CFL, MLB, NFL and Hollywood and Broadway WASTING all that money on marketing. Let the customer do all the work and find out what your current offerings are.

[1971GreyCup]

Lets not forget Sask was on the brink of collapse. They held telethons to keep the team alive. Look at them now. All is not lost.

MLSE has deep pockets and a desire to succeed. They've done it with TFC and the Raptors. Its year one with them.

it is not a one or two year process. They would know that. If they dont have a Harvard MBA on board im sure they have Rotman or Queens MBA who know the principles too..

Sounds like a jab Argosfans.com

[jerrym]

Strange that the Argos are in decline in Toronto, whereas in Vancouver - the most comparable market - the Lions just keep getting stronger...

Lion attendance has been on a more or less downhill slide since 1986 when it peaked at an 46,637 average with occasional resurgences, mainly in the Bobby Ackles return years. This year there has been a very slight uptick from an 19,858 average in 2017 to 20,182 average so far.


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https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/bc-lions/ (https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/bc-lions/attendance/)

[AngeloV]

Lets not forget Sask was on the brink of collapse. They held telethons to keep the team alive. Look at them now. All is not lost.

MLSE has deep pockets and a desire to succeed. They've done it with TFC and the Raptors. Its year one with them.

it is not a one or two year process. They would know that. If they dont have a Harvard MBA on board im sure they have Rotman or Queens MBA who know the principles too.

Best post of the thread (with apologies to those others that posted, no disrespect to you).

[1971GreyCup]

“Constructive feedback increases self-awareness, offers guidance and encourages development, so it is important to learn both to give it and to receive it. Constructive feedback does not mean only giving positive feedback (praise). Negative, or critical feedback given skilfully can be very important and useful.” University of Nottingham

[Will]

Best post of the thread (with apologies to those others that posted, no disrespect to you).

Disagree. He forgot to include Schulich.

[PHArgofan]

Disagree. He forgot to include Schulich.

I just figured if UoT MBA program cant sort their own school's football program out how can they fix the Argos. LOL !!!
:D

[Wobbler]

Lion attendance has been on a more or less downhill slide...
I was being sarcastic.

[Will]

I just figured if UoT MBA program cant sort their own school's football program out how can they fix the Argos. LOL !!!
:D

I wasn't about to touch York's football team either.

[PullTogether73]

Lets not forget Sask was on the brink of collapse. They held telethons to keep the team alive. Look at them now. All is not lost.

MLSE has deep pockets and a desire to succeed. They've done it with TFC and the Raptors. Its year one with them.

it is not a one or two year process. They would know that. If they dont have a Harvard MBA on board im sure they have Rotman or Queens MBA who know the principles too.

Yup.
Good post.
Good reminder to have patience with this process.

But geez, the first objective to healing an injured patient is to stop the bleeding, and all we have seen is bleeding since the change in ownership and the initial "triage" that was the move to BMO Field.

[Argofan_1000]

Which world-class business school will be first to chronicle the destruction of the Argos brand? Only a slow and methodical effort over a 35 to 40 year period could have brought this franchise, and the league it plays it, to its knees.

Recent efforts have been arguably the most effective to date. They include:

1. Fire all senior management and replace with a single part-timer. In the process, lose key support personnel.
2. Slash sales force and support it with a part-time staff.
3. Radically reduce marketing budget. Get those cost controls in place immediately.
4. Halt all pre-existing brand efforts and wait a year or two before instituting replacement efforts.
5. Hire outside think-tank to review the situation and put that on indefinite hold.
6. Ultimately leave it outsiders to attack the local market/customers to place the blame.

Have I missed any key ingredients to this long term?

Waiting for someone to write Jerry Maguire's Mission Statement" https://youtu.be/zDbV2-tZgbg

We can learn a lesson from Rogers and the Blue Jays. They have sold that team on every media outlet 24/7. They still do it. They have elevated this team above the Argos in the city's mind. We haven't had that for the Argos in this city for a long time. There was nobody doing it. There is no difference in the quality of the athletes or exciting games we watch in the CFL. In fact I would think that would be in Argos favor. I don't know what Rogers did you would call it Brainwashing but it's close.

I will be at the Thursday night game - not going to let the team down when they are on the bottom

[Argo57]

Strange that the Argos are in decline in Toronto, whereas in Vancouver - the most comparable market - the Lions just keep getting stronger...

David Braley’s Vision?

[RB957]

I'm a Schulich MBA grad -- where would you like me to start?

- Porter's Five Forces
- SWOT analysis
- 5 P's of Marketing

I forgot the rest already

I am a Schulich MBA grad too.... so those that know me would challenge the fact that the school is world-class if I was able to graduate... but here's another to add to your list:

Supply and Demand. As far as the Argos go, we have the former, but are critically lacking in the latter.

If anyone really wanted to do a legitimate business case study, the Ottawa Redblacks resurgence would be compelling. They sure seem to have done everything right, and have made TD Place the place to be. If I had a say, I would embed some of the Argos staff in Ottawa to really see what they did and what if anything we could duplicate here.

[Joe Barnes]

I am a Schulich MBA grad too.... so those that know me would challenge the fact that the school is world-class if I was able to graduate... but here's another to add to your list:

Supply and Demand. As far as the Argos go, we have the former, but are critically lacking in the latter.

If anyone really wanted to do a legitimate business case study, the Ottawa Redblacks resurgence would be compelling. They sure seem to have done everything right, and have made TD Place the place to be. If I had a say, I would embed some of the Argos staff in Ottawa to really see what they did and what if anything we could duplicate here.

OSEG made Lansdowne Park an entertainment hub, fixing up the hockey arena, and stadium, while adding restaurants, bars and a Cineplex to the formerly popular site that used to host the Ottawa Exhibition. Made the area a 'go to' place for entertainment, even when there is no game on. Mlse already runs BMO and Ricoh (Coca-cola now), on Toronto's formerly popular exhibition grounds (I say formerly because the ex ain't what it used to be). The immediate area also has the Ontario Place site (including Cinesphere and the Budweiser Stage) as well as the Queen Elizabeth Theatre and Medieval Times. It seems to me that if you cleaned up the area a bit and added a few permanent bars and restaurants, you could have quite an entertainment attraction there. It's already a hub for a lot, but it's disjointed and not the place to be if you aren't already attending an event there. Synergy between the venues and connection by strategically locating bars and restaurants throughout the site. I realize this is much bigger than the Argos, but all stakeholders would benefit, and if anyone has the clout to drive a thing like this, surely it's MLSE.

[Joe Barnes]

Lansdowne in Ottawa is also close to the trendy Glebe area, kind like the CNE area is close to Toronto's trendy Liberty Village...

[Ron]

Yup.
Good post.
Good reminder to have patience with this process.

But geez, the first objective to healing an injured patient is to stop the bleeding, and all we have seen is bleeding since the change in ownership and the initial "triage" that was the move to BMO Field.

also to remember that the top brass have said it will take a decade (starting this year) to fix the problem. They also have set a goal of "hopefully" increasing crowd sizes by 1500 per game per season. We have ownership with a very long term view so we should also have the same.

I have a neighbour that used to go to games. I asked him if he was going to go back since tix were only $20 and he always said he'd love the team at an outdoor stadium. Well his reply was "That's $20 more than I got tix for before."

It'll take a decade folks. No point getting all anxious every week.

[shayman]

I think we're in about the 20th year of various three-to-ten-year-long plans to rebuild attendance.

[paulwoods13]

I think we're in about the 20th year of various three-to-ten-year-long plans to rebuild attendance.

I don't agree, Steve. I can't recall any ownership group, going all the way back to Ornest, that said anything other than "we will bring the fans back quickly." Certainly the Bell-Tanenbaum group said it. Braley never said anything that implied any sort of challenge. C&S talked big and delivered (albeit with papered houses). Schwarz talked big. TSN/Labatt suggested things would be turned around in a year or two. McNall et al said they expected to sell out right away. Ornest said his team played in the world's greatest stadium and people would flock to see it. Before that was Carling O'Keefe, which bought the team when it was successful at the gate.

One can make a great case that a long, slow build should have been the approach as far back as 1994, but I don't think any owner since then said that publicly, and I don't think any of them believed it secretly, either.

[MikeT]

OSEG made Lansdowne Park an entertainment hub, fixing up the hockey arena, and stadium, while adding restaurants, bars and a Cineplex to the formerly popular site that used to host the Ottawa Exhibition. Made the area a 'go to' place for entertainment, even when there is no game on. Mlse already runs BMO and Ricoh (Coca-cola now), on Toronto's formerly popular exhibition grounds (I say formerly because the ex ain't what it used to be). The immediate area also has the Ontario Place site (including Cinesphere and the Budweiser Stage) as well as the Queen Elizabeth Theatre and Medieval Times. It seems to me that if you cleaned up the area a bit and added a few permanent bars and restaurants, you could have quite an entertainment attraction there. It's already a hub for a lot, but it's disjointed and not the place to be if you aren't already attending an event there. Synergy between the venues and connection by strategically locating bars and restaurants throughout the site. I realize this is much bigger than the Argos, but all stakeholders would benefit, and if anyone has the clout to drive a thing like this, surely it's MLSE.

Yes they are kind of similar areas but Liberty Village is very close and full of trendy bars and restaurants. No need to put in restaurants and bars beside BMO when Liberty is already there.

As for getting fans back by offering "cheap" tickets, that hasn't worked because that is not the problem in Toronto. This is rich Toronto where fans pay big bucks for entertainment including Raptors/Leafs/Jays/TFC. Look at the prices people pay for season tickets to the other teams. Very few of the "cheap" tickets were sold last game and still looks like thousands available for next weeks game. The cheap tickets aren't selling because pricing is not the problem.
Whats the problem? I'm sure MLSE/Argos and their marketing department have been trying to figure this out for a couple of years, if they knew what was wrong and it was an easy fix they would do it.

[Will]

Hello slimjim

[shayman]

Well, OK. Maybe I should have said "we're in the 20th year of trying seemingly obvious solutions that aren't working", including

• fancy halftime shows
• better schedule
• move outdoors
• move to BMO
• tailgates
• lower prices
• sign some big names
• get out in the community
• just win


As a long time fan it's really hard to sit back and just hope that MLSE's long term plan will turn things around when we've seen so many things that haven't helped.

[jerrym]

Another sad story about Argo attendance with a description of some of the problems but few hints at solutions:



There is always optimism about the Argos and new ownership. The problem is, once the optimism wanes, the reality rarely changes. On the day the team was officially sold from David Braley to Larry Tanenbaum and Bell Inc., there were smiles everywhere. They were moving to a great new stadium. They were finally heading outdoors. This was going to change things, so many said. Tanenbaum predicted a run on tickets and sellouts and all that good stuff. New ownership always thinks that way at the beginning with the Argos.
The transition to BMO Field, from indoor to outdoor, from stale environment to football environment, was to be like the return of football in Ottawa, where time stopped when the Redblacks played.
This kind of move worked in Montreal when football came back, works in Hamilton now with Tim Hortons Field, was a back-to-the-future play intended to return to when football moved the needle in this town.

I bought the pitch. I’m probably the right age for it — with a memory of days gone by. I bought season tickets and tried to turn back the clock. I invited friends to join me. We got a group together as large as 26 season-ticket holders the first year and wanted in early because demand was going to be high.
That’s what we thought. ...

Our group had 26 the first year. It shrunk to 16 the second year. It’s 12 now.
There is no single reason why customers didn’t return. But there was a sentiment: If I can buy a ticket for any game at any time, why should I buy for all the games? ...

Maybe the 10,000-plus fans they announced on Saturday afternoon after a crowd of around 12,000 the week before is supply-and-demand at its most telling. The Argos have a supply of tickets available at a reasonable price by today’s ticket standards of entertainment products. There just isn’t any demand for them. And a truth we have seen in other markets with other teams and other leagues when the wall is struck and there is no place to go: You can’t make people care about what they don’t care about. ...
They won the Grey Cup last November. That’s two championships in six years in a place where championships are rarely won. It didn’t move the turnstiles at all. ...

Pushing tickets isn’t something MLSE does with any kind of regularity or need. They operate mostly high-demand franchises. ...

What’s the answer? MLSE hasn’t found one, neither did Tanenbaum or Braley or Howard Sokolowski or David Cynamon or Sherwood Schwarz or Harry Ornest or Bruce McNall in partnership with Wayne Gretzky and the late John Candy. That’s 10 owners in 29 seasons. Each of them believing they would be different.
We’ve talked about getting more kids in the park, turning to families, turning to the various ethnic communities of Toronto, turning to the high schools, turning to the young adults of Liberty Village — we’ve talked about all of that. Probably a lot more.


https://torontosun.com/sports/football/cfl/toronto-argonauts/simmons-new-owner-same-old-story-for-rock-bottom-drawing-argonauts

[Shipyard]

Lion attendance has been on a more or less downhill slide since 1986 when it peaked at an 46,637 average with occasional resurgences, mainly in the Bobby Ackles return years. This year there has been a very slight uptick from an 19,858 average in 2017 to 20,182 average so far.

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https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/bc-lions/ (https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/bc-lions/attendance/)



they had 26,000 STH 5 years ago ... now around 15,000.
Vancouver is a bandwaggon city. Winning is all that matters

[R.J]

they had 26,000 STH 5 years ago ... now around 15,000.
Vancouver is a bandwaggon city. Winning is all that matters
Source ?

[macspectrum]

Lets not forget Sask was on the brink of collapse. They held telethons to keep the team alive. Look at them now. All is not lost.

MLSE has deep pockets and a desire to succeed. They've done it with TFC and the Raptors. Its year one with them.

it is not a one or two year process. They would know that. If they dont have a Harvard MBA on board im sure they have Rotman or Queens MBA who know the principles too.

the raison d'etre for mlse is to make $ - full stop
when was the last time leafs won a cup ?

[Ron]

I think we're in about the 20th year of various three-to-ten-year-long plans to rebuild attendance.

First time with owners that'll own them that long and longer.

[macspectrum]

We can learn a lesson from Rogers and the Blue Jays. They have sold that team on every media outlet 24/7. They still do it. They have elevated this team above the Argos in the city's mind. We haven't had that for the Argos in this city for a long time. There was nobody doing it. There is no difference in the quality of the athletes or exciting games we watch in the CFL. In fact I would think that would be in Argos favor. I don't know what Rogers did you would call it Brainwashing but it's close.

I will be at the Thursday night game - not going to let the team down when they are on the bottom

'not going to let the team down when they are on the bottom'
seems that is exactly what shapiro loves and to use your word 'brainwashed'

[macspectrum]

corporate owners = death
basille, where r u ?


First time with owners that'll own them that long and longer.

[Shatto]

Better brains than mine have tried to solve the attendance problem and failed but ignoring that, here are a few suggestions for what it's worth:

1)A full time president needs to be appointed with the sole task of selling the team to the public. The individual has to have a high profile and the ability to sell himself as well as the team.
2)Bell has to use its media platforms to highlight the team just as Rogers does with the Jays.
3)Canvass the fans to see what they want to see before and during the game.
4)When the team gets a good idea that many fans seem to like ---don't cancel it just because it wasn't the new management's baby (tailgate)
5)Recognize that there may not be any one particular thing to solve the problem but maybe a number of different PR/Marketing approaches
6)When you sell a steak--sell the sizzle---unfortunately there is no sizzle or buzz connected to the team at this time, so work at creating one.
7)Start highlighting the players in the media. For example-How many non Argo fans know about Edwards exploits as a college QB? How many non Argo fans know of the trials and tribulations that Gabriel went through to become a football pro?

All of the above are easier said than done but just as the previous management thought moving to BMO would draw the crowds, the present management appears to believe that reducing prices alone will attract more fans. It is not a simple as that and new creative, unique, imaginative, innovative approaches have to be explored. Well here's hoping!

[macspectrum]

Better brains than mine have tried to solve the attendance problem and failed but ignoring that, here are a few suggestions for what it's worth:

1)A full time president needs to be appointed with the sole task of selling the team to the public. The individual has to have a high profile and the ability to sell himself as well as the team.
2)Bell has to use its media platforms to highlight the team just as Rogers does with the Jays.
3)Canvass the fans to see what they want to see before and during the game.
4)When the team gets a good idea that many fans seem to like ---don't cancel it just because it wasn't the new management's baby (tailgate)
5)Recognize that there may not be any one particular thing to solve the problem but maybe a number of different PR/Marketing approaches
6)When you sell a steak--sell the sizzle---unfortunately there is no sizzle or buzz connected to the team at this time, so work at creating one.
7)Start highlighting the players in the media. For example-How many non Argo fans know about Edwards exploits as a college QB? How many non Argo fans know of the trials and tribulations that Gabriel went through to become a football pro?

All of the above are easier said than done but just as the previous management thought moving to BMO would draw the crowds, the present management appears to believe that reducing prices alone will attract more fans. It is not a simple as that and new creative, unique, imaginative, innovative approaches have to be explored. Well here's hoping!

nothing is better than wins

[paulwoods13]

Some good ideas, Shatto. One point worth noting is that bell really can't use its sports network to promote the Argos the way Rogers uses its. The Jays are the only baseball team in Canada so no one is offended if they are heavily promoted by Sportsnet. But TSN has often been accused over the years of being the Toronto Sports Network, and it would turn off fans of other teams if Argos got a lot more coverage. Now Bell could, however, feature the Argos heavily on its local properties.

[AngeloV]

Some good ideas, Shatto. One point worth noting is that bell really can't use its sports network to promote the Argos the way Rogers uses its. The Jays are the only baseball team in Canada so no one is offended if they are heavily promoted by Sportsnet. But TSN has often been accused over the years of being the Toronto Sports Network, and it would turn off fans of other teams if Argos got a lot more coverage. Now Bell could, however, feature the Argos heavily on its local properties.

With the regional set up TSN now has, I don't see why TSN4 can't be used to heavily promote the Argos.

[paulwoods13]

With the regional set up TSN now has, I don't see why TSN4 can't be used to heavily promote the Argos.

TSN doesn't do any region-specific programming at the moment, as far as I know. The strategy doesn't seem to be to differentiate the regional channels (apart from regional hockey team games and occasionally soccer). They are using the regionals as "alternative" programming channels and trying to drive customers to buy all five.

[AngeloV]

TSN doesn't do any region-specific programming at the moment, as far as I know. The strategy doesn't seem to be to differentiate the regional channels (apart from regional hockey team games and occasionally soccer). They are using the regionals as "alternative" programming channels and trying to drive customers to buy all five.

True.

[ArgoRavi]

Some good ideas, Shatto. One point worth noting is that bell really can't use its sports network to promote the Argos the way Rogers uses its. The Jays are the only baseball team in Canada so no one is offended if they are heavily promoted by Sportsnet. But TSN has often been accused over the years of being the Toronto Sports Network, and it would turn off fans of other teams if Argos got a lot more coverage. Now Bell could, however, feature the Argos heavily on its local properties.

And Bell did do that prior to the East Final last year, which drew almost 25k, and did, to some extent, do this prior to the home opener this year which drew over 16k.

[argolio]

nothing is better than winsThe Argos of 1974-81 would beg to differ.