Game Thread - August 18: BC Lions @ Toronto Argonauts

[Will]

The Lions are proving not to be pushovers this season although each of their 3 wins have come at home. Travis Lulay has been solid.

For the Argos it is a chance to try and get their season back on track after the comeback win against the Redblacks.

The Lions may be vulnerable on the ground having given up 124 YPG (prior to Thursday) and give up quite a bit through the air as well.

That's obviously not to say that the Argos don't have their own troubles defensively.

[macspectrum]

ex argos fajardo and lemon will be pumped up

[cfl-cis fan]

The Lions are proving not to be pushovers this season although each of their 3 wins have come at home. Travis Lulay has been solid.

For the Argos it is a chance to try and get their season back on track after the comeback win against the Redblacks.

The Lions may be vulnerable on the ground having given up 124 YPG (prior to Thursday) and give up quite a bit through the air as well.

That's obviously not to say that the Argos don't have their own troubles defensively.

Can we please have the Trestman Offence for the whole game and not Condell's version.

[macspectrum]

Can we please have the Trestman Offence for the whole game and not Condell's version.

protection of qb and mobile qb will be huge for the successful offence of the argos

[Stevoman]

The Lions defence stepped up after a weak first quarter against Edmonton. They are going to be a tough team to beat but I do think the Argos can get it done provided they don't wait until the 4th quarter to get it going again. They really need a fast start.

[Argo57]

The Lions defence stepped up after a weak first quarter against Edmonton. They are going to be a tough team to beat but I do think the Argos can get it done provided they don't wait until the 4th quarter to get it going again. They really need a fast start.

Your last statement is crucial IMO particularly on D.
Too many times this season the Argo D has let the opposition score a seemingly easy TD early in the game, can’t continue.

[jerrym]

Too many times this season the Argo D has let the opposition score a seemingly easy TD early in the game, can’t continue.

The Lions are a different team now that Lulay is back. However, their confidence did seem to be waning after the Eskimos took a 14-3 lead until Rainey's punt return TD rekindled it. I expect them to come into Toronto on a high, so the Argos better be ready to go from the start of the game.

[dmont]

Your last statement is crucial IMO particularly on D.
Too many times this season the Argo D has let the opposition score a seemingly easy TD early in the game, can’t continue.

Watch for Kanneh to be the main culprit. He usually snoozes through the first two or three defensive series. Get that man an alarm clock, stat!

[AngeloV]

The Lions are a different team now that Lulay is back. However, their confidence did seem to be waning after the Eskimos took a 14-3 lead until Rainey's punt return TD rekindled it. I expect them to come into Toronto on a high, so the Argos better be ready to go from the start of the game.

Funny that Lulay is getting all the credit, but IMO, he hasn't done anything special, or even better than Jennings was doing. In the 2 games they have won with Lulay, the Lions D has given up zero and 3 points in the 2nd halves of those games. Take away that, and the Rainey punt return TD, is anyone really saying Lulay has made a difference?

[Argo57]

Watch for Kanneh to be the main culprit. He usually snoozes through the first two or three defensive series. Get that man an alarm clock, stat!

Very true.
I’d love to see him replaced in the lineup.

[gilthethrill]

This game will be win #2 for the Argos enroute to their 6 game winning streak.

[jerrym]

Funny that Lulay is getting all the credit, but IMO, he hasn't done anything special, or even better than Jennings was doing. In the 2 games they have won with Lulay, the Lions D has given up zero and 3 points in the 2nd halves of those games. Take away that, and the Rainey punt return TD, is anyone really saying Lulay has made a difference?
I attended BC's home opener where the listless attack the Lions under Jennings had against the Alouettes, who have the most porous defence in the league, was manifest. That continued in his next two starts. Lulay's return brought a major change as the stats in the article below show. The defence has gotten better but part of that is the offence is no longer typically two and out both physically and mentally, now that Lulay is back. At the time the following article was written, the Lions had played five games, three with Jennings and two with Lulay. Despite Jennings advantage in games played, Lulay dominated in long pass completions, thereby changing the nature of the offence.



Despite having the fewest passing attempts in the CFL, the Leos have the second-most completions over 30 yards (11) with the Lions’ share coming with Lulay at the helm (eight).
The veteran quarterback is going deeper more than Jonathon Jennings did, hitting for 292 yards and two touchdowns on 23 passes over 20 yards, as opposed to Jennings’ three completions for 115 yards and one score.
The numbers are, of course, skewed by the small sample size — Lulay has only started two games — but the fact he leads the league in completion yardage (13.5) shows the difference in the two pivots’ styles.


https://nationalpost.com/sports/football/cfl/bc-lions/j-j-adams-lions-take-refuse-to-lose-attitude-to-calgary-to-face-unbeaten-stamps/wcm/2317e168-b86d-4821-bb06-d3121f1dcbe8

[ArgoZ]

This game will be win #2 for the Argos enroute to their 6 game winning streak.
I like your thinking! Winning this one game puts the Argos in second place with a full second half of mostly Eastern opponents. Sets up a nice and potential exciting finish to the season.

[mchesher03]

Need a win and the resulting momentum big time!

For amusement purposes – the Boatmen have not beaten BC at home since 2013, with the road teams winning each game for the past few years starting in 2014. I also seem to recall that that road win back in 2013 snapped quite a long streak of Argo losses in BC.

Anyhow that said, BC is not a pushover but I still think the Argos can get the W here – run the ball, control time of possession (feel they’ve struggled with this in 2018), keep their defence on the field.

[AngeloV]

Need a win and the resulting momentum big time!

For amusement purposes – the Boatmen have not beaten BC at home since 2013, with the road teams winning each game for the past few years starting in 2014. I also seem to recall that that road win back in 2013 snapped quite a long streak of Argo losses in BC.

Anyhow that said, BC is not a pushover but I still think the Argos can get the W here – run the ball, control time of possession (feel they’ve struggled with this in 2018), keep their defence on the field.


Argos and Lions have both been really bad on the road this year. I hope that continues this week, and ends following the game as the Argos next 2 are on the road.

[lazycro]

We were 3-5 after 8 games played last year so let's hope the boys show up

[mchesher03]

Argos and Lions have both been really bad on the road this year. I hope that continues this week, and ends following the game as the Argos next 2 are on the road.

Maybe this is out of the team’s hands (and I’m guessing it is), but why don’t we ever play 1pm home games against bc? We always seem to get stuck playing road games at 7pm local time there, but never seem to get the corresponding advantage at home.

I’ve read all these articles mentioning out west coast NFL teams tend to struggle with the 1pm EST starts so why not use it to our advantage here (everything helps no?)

[gilthethrill]

Maybe this is out of the team’s hands (and I’m guessing it is), but why don’t we ever play 1pm home games against bc? We always seem to get stuck playing road games at 7pm local time there, but never seem to get the corresponding advantage at home.

I’ve read all these articles mentioning out west coast NFL teams tend to struggle with the 1pm EST starts so why not use it to our advantage here (everything helps no?)




TSN is responsible for the late Saturday kickoff times. Look forward to the September 8 game against Hamilton that does start at 1.

[Will]

Maybe this is out of the team’s hands (and I’m guessing it is), but why don’t we ever play 1pm home games against bc? We always seem to get stuck playing road games at 7pm local time there, but never seem to get the corresponding advantage at home.

I’ve read all these articles mentioning out west coast NFL teams tend to struggle with the 1pm EST starts so why not use it to our advantage here (everything helps no?)


It is Vancouver's revenge for the 4 PM local starts whenever the Leafs visit there.

[AngeloV]

I'm really looking forward to the return of Coombs this week. Argos have really lacked in YAC this season with the exception of Wilder out of the backfield. Alford going in for Smith may also result in better open field running after the catch. I for one, can't wait for Saturday.

[paulwoods13]

I'm really looking forward to the return of Coombs this week. Argos have really lacked in YAC this season with the exception of Wilder out of the backfield. Alford going in for Smith may also result in better open field running after the catch. I for one, can't wait for Saturday.

Is Alford going in for Smith or for Williams? With Bomben starting we have an extra INT to play with.

[AngeloV]

Is Alford going in for Smith or for Williams? With Bomben starting we have an extra INT to play with.

Good point, but Frank Z's column today seemed to indicate it would be for Smith and that he was practicing at boundary WR spot, which is where Smith was lining up. Personally, I would prefer to start an extra Canadian. It allows for more flexibility as far as rotations go.

[gilthethrill]

I am excited to see Alford make his debut. He looked good in Guelph on return duty. Not a big guy buy any means, but as we see in Hamilton, smaller receivers with speed are dangerous and productive.

[jerrym]

I am excited to see Alford make his debut. He looked good in Guelph on return duty. Not a big guy buy any means, but as we see in Hamilton, smaller receivers with speed are dangerous and productive.

I'm not against Smith, although his contribution so far has been limited but could improve with experience, but the Argos could definitely use a speedy receiver.

[ArgoZ]

I have two tickets in section 126, but need a third for my teenage relative. If anyone has anything or would like trade, ideas, etc, let me know.

[lazycro]

Marcus Roberson is in this game too interested to see who is sitting in that backfield.

[jerrym]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Full depth ⤵️ <a href="https://t.co/8PTolBVsmm">pic.twitter.com/8PTolBVsmm</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/1030470037839261696?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 17, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[lazycro]

No Woods.....

[Skinny G]

Surprised that it looks as though Bear won't be playing tomorrow...

[Skinny G]

Marcus Roberson is in this game too interested to see who is sitting in that backfield. Looks like Kanneh sits...

[lazycro]

Looks like Kanneh sits...

We like this news right?

[Will]

We like this news right?

Indeed.

[Will]

Surprised that it looks as though Bear won't be playing tomorrow...

Makes the Taylor Reed release interesting. I assumed when that transaction was made that it more or less confirmed that Woods was ready.

[AngeloV]

So Smith does start at Boundary WR and Alford replaces Malcolm Williams on the field side with Williams heading to the 1 game IR (guessing that's because he doesn't play ST's). When will I learn never to pay attention to Frank Z? I've seen him at practice, and he really barely even looks at the field when the team is practicing.

[argofan81]

Makes the Taylor Reed release interesting. I assumed when that transaction was made that it more or less confirmed that Woods was ready.

Woods got hurt at practice on Tuesday. Reports from spectators at practice said his left hand was wrapped in ice after a (hefty) player fell on him.

[Will]

Woods got hurt at practice on Tuesday. Reports from spectators at practice said his left hand was wrapped in ice after a (hefty) player fell on him.

I just read the news in the Sun.

Bad luck.

[dmont]

I like, I like!

I'm glad we're making changes in the secondary. I remember Byron Parker earlier in the year implying that Yell had a slow start because he was playing out of his natural position. Is CB where he played in BC?

Curious to see what alford can do. I doubt he can block downfield as well as William's, given his size, but he might have the jets (a la Dionne spencer) to stretch the D and free up Edwards and green.

Coombs finally gets a look. I'm pulling for him.... but all the same, I'm glad to have Noel there as an insurance policy.

A concern for me is lack of depth on the o-line. Are either kolonkowski or J Campbell ready to step in if a guard or left tackle goes down?

[paulwoods13]

Not surprised to see Smith and Alford both starting at WR. That is the most logical outcome of taking an INT off the o-line.

Good to see Kanneh being replaced. I'd still like to see Dowling in the lineup somewhere, but intrigued to see what Roberson can bring to the secondary.

I assume White is the INT who will sit. Among the NATs, I expect either a DT or an LB will sit to get to the 44.

I'm fine with having Campbell and Kolankowski as our two backup o-linemen. We've had them as the backups for several games the past two seasons. Kolankowski can play both guard and centre.

[jerrym]

I like, I like!

Coombs finally gets a look. I'm pulling for him.... but all the same, I'm glad to have Noel there as an insurance policy.

A concern for me is lack of depth on the o-line. Are either kolonkowski or J Campbell ready to step in if a guard or left tackle goes down?

Ditto.

[jerrym]

Here's BC's depth chart:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Depth chart day!<br><br>Here is how we lineup in the Big 💨tomorrow night!<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WeAreTheLions?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#WeAreTheLions</a> <a href="https://t.co/mjkJ8Y67xW">pic.twitter.com/mjkJ8Y67xW</a></p>&mdash; BC Lions (@BCLions) <a href="https://twitter.com/BCLions/status/1030492014821953537?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 17, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[gilthethrill]

So Smith does start at Boundary WR and Alford replaces Malcolm Williams on the field side with Williams heading to the 1 game IR (guessing that's because he doesn't play ST's). When will I learn never to pay attention to Frank Z? I've seen him at practice, and he really barely even looks at the field when the team is practicing.

Was that article not written by a new name...i don't think it was Frank.

[Argo57]

Argo rep told me ticket sales are strong for tomorrow’s game.

[ArgoRavi]

Argo rep told me ticket sales are strong for tomorrow’s game.

Zicarelli reported this in the Sun a couple of days ago and it was confirmed by Mike Hogan on Twitter yesterday - a near capacity crowd will be on hand for Saturday's game. The east upper deck will remain closed, as it was for TFC's game this week.

[argolio]

When will I learn never to pay attention to Frank Z? I've seen him at practice, and he really barely even looks at the field when the team is practicing.lol!

Expecting a tough game as I think the Lions are better than their record.

[smokeslet'sgo]

Zicarelli reported this in the Sun a couple of days ago and it was confirmed by Mike Hogan on Twitter yesterday - a near capacity crowd will be on hand for Saturday's game. The east upper deck will remain closed, as it was for TFC's game this week.

I think it may sell out, at least what is being sold. Almost nothing left on Ticketmaster, and only endzone available on Stubhub which is a good sign. Will be interesting to see if there's a difference between tickets sold and actual a$$es in seats.

If there's a good crowd on hand, the Argos CANNOT blow it. It seems like every time they get a strong crowd, except last year's East Final, they play a terrible game and turn off any potential new fans. At least keeping the game close, if not winning, is so important

[lazycro]

Ticket sales could be good because of the Ex especially with how weather played out this week today becomes more opening day than yesterday

[smokeslet'sgo]

Ticket sales could be good because of the Ex especially with how weather played out this week today becomes more opening day than yesterday

I'm assuming this is what it is. I don't see why we would draw friends and family against Winnipeg and Ottawa and then suddenly "sell out" against BC of all teams. Hopefully more people than not actually attend the game though

[Mightygoose]

Ticketmaster only showing field level seats available but I've noticed isolated pairs popping up and going away so it does seem sales are strong.

Even if it does sell out, I don't see the team announcing it.

[lazycro]

Be aware of the picket lines today. Park FAR if you are driving. They are blocking turning on Strachan and blocking sidewalks for people to walk.

[jerrym]

Expecting a tough game as I think the Lions are better than their record.

They have played much better since the return of Lulay.

[lazycro]

How many years did Yell play with Lulay

[jerrym]

Argos asleep on the fake punt. How many times in my life have I seen that?

[jerrym]

Argos are 15 for 20 now in short yardage, which is terrible. Trestman is gambling too much on long short yardage for a team that is not that good at it.

[dmont]

Our defense is soooooooo bad on second and long. It's the most frustrating thing about watching this team. "BC, second and 9"....... no problem! Automatic!

[jerrym]

Medeiros is a big improvement in FGs and giving us a chance in this game.

[dmont]

Defense is pretty soft so far. I realize the team philosophy is to try to force the fumble, and sometimes I'm happy with the result... but sometimes it's so frustrating to watch our guys slap at the ball while the receiver or RB gets six or seven more yards.

O line is playing well. MBT is playing efficient football. Wilder and Cross look good. Coombs looked good on his one reception. Offense isn't doing too bad, they're just not getting on the field.

I liked how the used walford, sending him down field. Bethel Thompson underthrew him, otherwise it would've been a TD.

Overall, especially the D is playing like theres a bunch of new faces on the field.

[jerrym]

Welcome back Anthony Coombs!

[dmont]

Woohoo touchdown!!!

Van Zeyl got away with a hold on that one. Lucky.

[1971GreyCup]

BC coverage on that play had one player face down in the end zone.

Definitely turf. On review he transitioned poorly and went down on the goal line.

That turf is a disgrace to the CFL!

[jerrym]

B-T is maturing as a CFL QB very quickly.

[jerrym]

Martese saves the Argos from having very poor field position after Laing's dumb roughing the passer penalty on second down.

[jerrym]

Marcus's interception and fumble is a gift first down to BC. Could be a game breaker.

[jerrym]

A crazy ending with Marcus redeeming hlmself on the fumble recovery for an Argo win!

[dmont]

I screamed "GET THE F@<#ING BALL!!!"... at the top of my lungs... in front of my sweet little 2 yr old daughter...

...nothing yet... fingers crossed.

[mchesher03]

A win is a win. That was full entertainment value and I’m glad the team played entertaining football for a bigger crowds today (for the most part). Wilder had a heckuva game and I think Bethel-Thompson was close to a very very good game if not for a few bad throws - he’s making good reads imo. Think he could have incorporated Coombs more for what it’s worth but hopefully he does more so next game. Lemon silent all game except for one unfortunate sack Atthe end.

[Stevoman]

Offense was moving well in the first quarter but had to settle for 3's too many times. I like how they got the momentum back in the 3rd quarter though and at least got 2 touchdowns. Wilder ran well but would've liked him used more in the second half. Edwards had some clutch catches and I thought Alford did well on the outside. Welcome back Coombs! His contributions today was the difference between a win and a loss. Bethel-Thompson did well but we need more drives finishing in TD's.

[jerrym]

The attendance of 18,104 was significantly aided by the free entrance to the game for those attending the Ex. Hopefully the exciting, close game will draw some of the casual fans back.

[Argofan_1000]

The attendance of 18,104 was significantly aided by the free entrance to the game for those attending the Ex. Hopefully the exciting, close game will draw some of the casual fans back.

these games are fun. I'll be back

[ArgoGabe22]

The attendance of 18,104 was significantly aided by the free entrance to the game for those attending the Ex. Hopefully the exciting, close game will draw some of the casual fans back.

Wasn’t it the other way around? Free entrance to the EX for those attending the game?

[lazycro]

Wasn’t it the other way around? Free entrance to the EX for those attending the game?

Yes

[argos1873]

The attendance of 18,104 was significantly aided by the free entrance to the game for those attending the Ex. Hopefully the exciting, close game will draw some of the casual fans back.

My thought as well. I knew the game was padded by the Ex, but that's ok. I was only concerned that the Argos played a good game. And a close game is even better in my books. Hopefully this lights a bit of a spark with those who were just there for the "cheap tickets".

[doubleblue]

I thought most of the changes to the roster worked out ok. Bomben in at RG didn't hurt and may well have been an improvement from Washington. Roberson in for Kanneh was an improvement IMO. Alford at the WR was an improvement, should stay on the roster. Coombs just a better receiver than Williams and was an improvement. Now if Bear Woods can finally get back at MLB and maybe sending Tuggle to DE can improve the defense. Tuggle has played well but they need him and Woods on the field at the same time. Medeiros looks to have taken over the kicking game in the immediate future. Again maybe a little lucky but a win is a win.

[Bill G]

Likes:
James Wilder Jr running & receiving. Lots of tough yards.
New? (new to me?) receiver Alford with some catches
Good YAC on short passes to Cross & Coombs (nothing more frustrating for defenses than seeing short passes converted to big yards)
M B-T ... he has a nice arm! (TD pass to Coombs)

Dislikes
Asleep on the fake punt in a "semi-obvious they could fake it" situation (distance and field position)

Neutral
Hard to dislike a squad that gives up 23 points but ... could Bear Woods, Bear Woods, please report to the playing field.

[Bill G]

And another dislike ... the offense stalled badly in the 4th quarter after getting 24 on the board.

[Shatto]

Great game --a nail biter to the last play. Hopefully, as others have suggested, this may encourage fans to return for future games.

Observations (for what they are worth):
The newcomers looked very good--- Alford has outstanding speed and always seemed to be able to get separation---Roberson was steady and looked very dependable( definitely an improvement on Kanneh) In the post game interview, Trestman mentioned the roster is still fluid---so perhaps we may see further roster changes in the future.

Coombs was a great addition ---let's hope he can stay injury free as he is a real asset to the offense.

MBT got stronger as the game progressed. Just as in the last game he played a better second half than the first. 2 starts and 2 wins--can't ask more than that

Wilder with 130 total yards from scrimmage was again a workhorse Watching when he didn't have the ball, I was impressed with his blocking.

It was justice that after Ball dropped the ball while heading into the end zone, he should recover the BC fumble to wrap up the win

Again we saw the atrocious north end zone playing surface help dictate the outcome of a play. When Coombs scored his TD, it looked as if the BC defender slipped and fell as he tried to turn. This won't always work out to our advantage and one time it may cost us the game. It is a disgrace that nothing is being done (that we know of) to rectify this situation.

[jerrym]

I thought most of the changes to the roster worked out ok. Bomben in at RG didn't hurt and may well have been an improvement from Washington. Roberson in for Kanneh was an improvement IMO. Alford at the WR was an improvement, should stay on the roster. Coombs just a better receiver than Williams and was an improvement. Now if Bear Woods can finally get back at MLB and maybe sending Tuggle to DE can improve the defense. Tuggle has played well but they need him and Woods on the field at the same time. Medeiros looks to have taken over the kicking game in the immediate future. Again maybe a little lucky but a win is a win.

I agree with everything you say and would just add the B-T shows great presence for only his second start in the CFL and seems capable of further development within a single game.

[1971GreyCup]

B.C. Lions are a talented, well coached team. As Chris Schultz said after the game, Argos matched up very well against them. In particular, HC Trestman perhaps out-coached the winningest coach in CFL history. Can’t ask for more than that.

Second week in a row, Argos half time adjustment got the job done. :)

[gilthethrill]

Took a couple of life long friends to the game and had a great time, always enjoy the company of forum members who were there as well (Argo57, Gabe, PW, AV, argofans.com and argolio).

Thought the maligned D had it's best game by far, it looks like Archer is getting the secondary in order...Bomben trade appeared to really solidify the line .Montreal is up next, a stadium that not been kind over the years, but I think the Argos can continue the streak. MBT moves well in the pocket and continues to win me over.

[dmont]

Best team performance of the year. Very glad it happened at home in front of 18k fans.

Macbeth (I'm trying it out, we'll see how it goes) played a nice efficient game. More balanced than last week, which my nerves appreciate. He can still improve on his chemistry with the receivers (Alford underthrow). He took some risks throwing into coverage with ball hawks in the area. Armanti came up with circus catches on two of them and the ground saved us from an interception on the third. His last possession was troubling when he took those two sacks. Up by one, you cant do SOMETHING to take some time off the clock? Maybe run calls would be better, but I dont like that Mac froze with the game on the line.

The ball got spread nicely among the receivers. Armanti had a great game, maybe not in yards but in fighting for the ball. I hope this is the start of good things for Coombs. Great game by wilder.

How 'bout that secondary???? :) :) :) see what happens when you dont spot the other team two touchdowns in the first five minutes of the game? I didnt notice Roberson at all and that's a good thing. Like Ottawa, they targeted Darby a little bit, but at least he was right with the receiver so he made it tough.

D line was ok (pressures) but improvements still needed. I thought linebackers were weak in the first half. On a run, screen, or pass to the flat, if they got past the d line, it was 10 yards easy.

Happy for the win (especially at home in front of the big crowd) but mistakes in the last couple minutes could have cost us the game. #NeverEasy

[Will]

By no means was MB-T perfect but he is coming along nicely. He missed on a few throws, but that's growing pains. He stood in there on several others, took a hit (the Coombs touchdown) an delivered a completion Now he is going to have to win on the road. Having Coombs back was a HUGE +, and nice to see that they tried to mix in the new receiver Alford. Wilder was solid as well.

Defence played much better in the second half. Although I saw more than a few missed tackles yesterday to be concerned. Tuggle had a bit of an issue in pass defence w/ Johnson. The two new DBs Washington and Roberson seemed to have nice debuts.

Special teams were very good. Medeiros, Jackson and cover teams were great.

[paulwoods13]

It was GREAT to be back at BMO for the first time in six weeks. Although I don't know how many more one-point comeback wins my heart can take!

MBT looks like a guy who can play QB in this league. He stands in against the rush, is able to sidestep pressure, makes good reads and throws with a lot of zip to all areas of the field. He seems poised, and he appears to have the full support of his teammates.

I've said it before, but the offence just seems to run better when Coombs is in the lineup. Unlike Ralph and Noel, he forces the defence to account for him, and when he gets the ball in his hands he almost always makes guys miss. If he can ever stay healthy, he'll be recognized as one of the top NAT receivers in the league.

The receivers all looked good. Alford and Smith both contributed. I like this particular lineup and don't feel there's any need to chase after Carter if all of these guys stay healthy.

The o-line looks vastly improved with Bomben in there. We used double-tights only a couple of times, and a sixth o-lineman maybe five or six times max.

The secondary looked a ton better. Interestingly, Darby played inside and Roberson played corner. The fact that Burnham and Arceneaux had generally quiet games tells me our back-end strategy was good. The one thing I hated about the defence was the blitzing -- we seemed to get burned almost every time we brought the house.

I agree with the idea that getting Woods back, and moving Tuggle to DE, should really solidify the defence. Hopefully BW's wrist injury is not going to keep him out much longer.

Medeiros has won the kicking job, IMO. He was great in all three phases, albeit with one mildly shanked punt late in the game.

[RB957]

It was a great win, and an exciting game. I felt that the crowd was really into it, especially when the Argos were on defense. Next home game against the Ti-Cats should generate another good crowd, and hopefully this translates into more interest from casual fans.

I was not happy that James Franklin was pulled after the last Winnipeg game, because I didn't think it was his fault... however, I have come to really respect MBT. He shows poise and confidence in the pocket, has a rocket arm, and is not afraid to run. I think someone else made the comment that he reminds them of Mike Reilly. I think this is very true.

If the Argos can play the entire game like they have in the second half of the last two, we could be in business!

I am still concerned with the play of our defense at times. Especially frustrating is when we make a good stop or there is an incompletion on first down, and then we give up huge yardage on second down. It just seems that other team's receivers are much more open most of the time. Is this just the result of the defensive scheme that they are playing?? I look forward to the return of Bear Woods. I think that will light a spark and add some punch.

[ArgoGabe22]

I like MBT. Makes the right moves, shifts feet in pocket, ain't afraid to go deep and limits the turnovers. A football cliche, but the Argos can't win if they throw the ball away like Franklin did, even when not all were his fault. He also moves the ball around and gets SJ Green more involved. Early in the season, I thought he might be nearing the end.

Alford and Coombs, give the Argos much needed YAC yards. Huge upgrade over Williams, Ralph and Noel.

Defence seems to be improving but it still seems that I'm watching them get beat way too easily. There is no pass rush, and coverage is shaky at times. But still managed to get the job done, surprisingly.

When Wilder gets more involved the better he seems to get. Although, I sometimes feel that we do rush too much on first down.

[AngeloV]

The attendance of 18,104 was significantly aided by the free entrance to the game for those attending the Ex. Hopefully the exciting, close game will draw some of the casual fans back.

Agree the Ex helped the attendance as it made for a full day of entertainment for some, but many were speculation people would buy tickets just to get into the Ex. I don't buy that as admission to the Ex was $15 while the cheapest ticket after ticketmaster fees was $21. All in all, a great day of entertainment was had.

[macspectrum]

i didnt see a holding penalty called on the o line and that is a great sign
great block by wilder on the td

bmt had some issues throwing deep but i really think carter would really help fix that and if d's are worried about carter going deep, sj green, coombs, cross will get a lot more room underneath
looked very much to me the sj green likes the button hook pattern

kicking game is solved in my opinion - medeiros is the guy

d pass rush was weak
db's need to play more man2man, instead of zone
let marcus ball call the d's ON THE FIELD

all in all a very good win!

[macspectrum]

"Although, I sometimes feel that we do rush too much on first down."
agreed!

[AngeloV]

The one thing I hated about the defence was the blitzing -- we seemed to get burned almost every time we brought the house.



Personally, I think the Argos worry too much about disguising the blitz. They are sending safeties starting at 20 yards deep on these blitzes and that is giving the opposition way too much time, as was evident on Burnham's TD. He had all day to come all across the field because the had Gabriel come from way too far back. You can't expect a DB to stay close to Burnham on that type of route. In contrast, Montreal showed blitz and really did a number on Reilly last night, despite the predictable scoring outcome.

[AngeloV]

BC coverage on that play had one player face down in the end zone.

Definitely turf. On review he transitioned poorly and went down on the goal line.

That turf is a disgrace to the CFL!

The turf is a convenient excuse on that play in particular. Coombs had at least 2 steps on the DB before he fell, and B-T's pass hit him in stride as Coombs actually had to accelerate to get to the ball. That was going to be a TD regardless.

[ArgoGabe22]

i didnt see a holding penalty called on the o line and that is a great sign
great block by wilder on the td

This play stood out for me. What a block by McEwan.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Have a day, AC. <a href="https://t.co/VzCPODceo1">pic.twitter.com/VzCPODceo1</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/1030943617156706304?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 18, 2018</a></blockquote>
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[1971GreyCup]

The turf is a convenient excuse on that play in particular. Coombs had at least 2 steps on the DB before he fell, and B-T's pass hit him in stride as Coombs actually had to accelerate to get to the ball. That was going to be a TD regardless.


I guess my question was, did he fall because of the turf and was the play called because of the turf? I don’t mind playing to your home advantage. Yankees have Yankee Stadium and Boston has the Green Monster. Players and plays chosen accordingly.

[Will]

Personally, I think the Argos worry too much about disguising the blitz. They are sending safeties starting at 20 yards deep on these blitzes and that is giving the opposition way too much time, as was evident on Burnham's TD. He had all day to come all across the field because the had Gabriel come from way too far back. You can't expect a DB to stay close to Burnham on that type of route. In contrast, Montreal showed blitz and really did a number on Reilly last night, despite the predictable scoring outcome.

So what you're saying is they're overthinking it way too much.

[Argo57]

Took a couple of life long friends to the game and had a great time, always enjoy the company of forum members who were there as well (Argo57, Gabe, PW, AV, argofans.com and argolio).

Thought the maligned D had it's best game by far, it looks like Archer is getting the secondary in order...Bomben trade appeared to really solidify the line .Montreal is up next, a stadium that not been kind over the years, but I think the Argos can continue the streak. MBT moves well in the pocket and continues to win me over.

Same here, good to see you guys!
Perfect weather, pretty decent crowd, lots of noise and an Argo victory👍
Overall things are improving, O-Line better with Bomben, D secondary much better without Kanneh, Coombs returning a big boost, Mario Alford looked good at receiver, Wilder when running north-south very effective.
MBT continues to impress running this offence, poised and seems comfortable spreading the ball around.

[AngeloV]

So what you're saying is they're overthinking it way too much.

Pretty much so.

[AngeloV]

Same here, good to see you guys!
Perfect weather, pretty decent crowd, lots of noise and an Argo victory👍
Overall things are improving, O-Line better with Bomben, D secondary much better without Kanneh, Coombs returning a big boost, Mario Alford looked good at receiver, Wilder when running north-south very effective.
MBT continues to impress running this offence, poised and seems comfortable spreading the ball around.

Ditto. Always great to meet up with you guys at the games. Also agree with your assessments.

[ArgoZ]

Just finished re-watching the game On Demand with commercials (forgot to PVR it).

Alford reminds me of Banks. They got to get him the ball. When MBT understands his speed, he won’t under throw him. Funny how MBT over threw a wide open receiver last week.

MBT didn’t have the best game, but he looks great. I love his passes. Love how he steps into the pocket with no fear. He’s only going to get better. Someone mentioned he reminds them of Reilly. The day MBT costs me 14000 in CFL Fantasy, will be a great one.

Coombs and Bomben. Two Canadians having an immediate impact on the results and ratio. I got this feeling the team is finally shaping up like it should have been early on.

One moment I have to share. After the game, my teenage relative remarked that he thinks he likes football better than basketball. I responded that they are both good, with a huge smile on my face. Hopefully more people realize how much fun the Argos are.

[Rich]

MBT didn’t have the best game, but he looks great.

To be honest i was a little disappointed that he didn't show much improvement over his first start. He missed at least 5 open guys by my count. This thing about this guy, though, is that he seems to play better in crunch time, which is maybe all you need out of a QB!

Still with two new weapons and another long week of reps I expected him to look a little better than he did against Ottawa and he really didn't. It makes me wonder how much better Franklin would have looked with Smith and Alford and Coombs at his disposal.

Agree with you ArgoZ about what a difference Alford and Coombs make. I love how quickly Alford turns downfield after the catch. He is special quick. And Coombsie is the straw that stirs the Argonaut drink, we've known that for a couple of years now. Just like his predecessor Mr. Durie was. These two are going to have defences mighty worried.

But the play of the game has to be Jermaine Gabriel's punishing hit on Arcenaux forcing the big fumble. Without that play our chances of winning at that point would have been pretty slim.

[macspectrum]

u typed; ''And Coombsie is the straw that stirs the Argonaut drink"
i would argue that Cross should be included as a 'straw'

[macspectrum]

u typed; 'After the game, my teenage relative remarked that he thinks he likes football better than basketball. I responded that they are both good, with a huge smile on my face.'
.
if he likes the football more than basketball, let him have his biases - after all, prez bush 1 famously said he did not care for broccoli
.
lol

[macspectrum]

i still think carter would really help argos deep throw game - he really would help stretch the field and i say he would have turned some of those deep throws into catches
he does have skillz
.
i just hope he is not a total basket case

[paulwoods13]

To be honest i was a little disappointed that he didn't show much improvement over his first start. He missed at least 5 open guys by my count. This thing about this guy, though, is that he seems to play better in crunch time, which is maybe all you need out of a QB!

In 2013, Collaros usually played poorly in the first half, and well in the second. I actually liked the way MBT looked in the first half on Saturday - yes, he missed a couple of open receivers but he also threaded the needle in a few times, and I never noticed any bad decisions on where he threw the ball. And two weeks in a row he has stepped up his game when the team was trailing in the second half. There's a lot to build on with this guy.

[AngeloV]

In 2013, Collaros usually played poorly in the first half, and well in the second. I actually liked the way MBT looked in the first half on Saturday - yes, he missed a couple of open receivers but he also threaded the needle in a few times, and I never noticed any bad decisions on where he threw the ball. And two weeks in a row he has stepped up his game when the team was trailing in the second half. There's a lot to build on with this guy.

Agree Paul. And your key comment was no bad decisions. Teams that make the fewest mistakes usually win.

On a side note, I watched the game again yesterday and the panel at half mentioned the same thing I did about the Argos blitz coming from too far back. You don't really need to disguise a blitz as long as assignments and execution are in order.

[macspectrum]

'I never noticed any bad decisions'
macbeth's throw in the 4th 1/4 almost resulting in an INT was not a good decision

[macspectrum]

'Argos blitz coming from too far back.'
i wonder why argos don't blitz LB instead as they are naturally closer to the line of scrimmage

[AngeloV]

'I never noticed any bad decisions'
macbeth's throw in the 4th 1/4 almost resulting in an INT was not a good decision

Decision was fine. Green was slow out of his break on the route, maybe read something different than the QB and curled instead of continuing on the route, but the play was there to be made. Sometimes you also have to give credit to the other team too.

[macspectrum]

Decision was fine. Green was slow out of his break on the route, maybe read something different than the QB and curled instead of continuing on the route, but the play was there to be made. Sometimes you also have to give credit to the other team too.

maybe i am thinking of a different pass in 4th as i dont recall green running the route - i dont have the game recorded - i recall receiver being well covered
i think martese jackson's play v als will really help give macbeth good field position as i think als kick coverage is suspect

[shayman]

Agree the Ex helped the attendance as it made for a full day of entertainment for some, but many were speculation people would buy tickets just to get into the Ex. I don't buy that as admission to the Ex was $15 while the cheapest ticket after ticketmaster fees was $21. All in all, a great day of entertainment was had.

I thought it was kind of odd that they only glanced at your Argos ticket when entering the CNE grounds - they didn't scan the barcode on the ticket, they scanned a totally separate barcode on a lanyard the ticket taker was wearing. All you had to do was wave something that looked sort of like an Argos ticket at them, and you were in. Seems like that could be abused pretty easily.

[doubleblue]

I haven't seen any blitz's that were better than Don Mathew's bring the house, and everybody knew it was coming.

[Will]

I thought it was kind of odd that they only glanced at your Argos ticket when entering the CNE grounds - they didn't scan the barcode on the ticket, they scanned a totally separate barcode on a lanyard the ticket taker was wearing. All you had to do was wave something that looked sort of like an Argos ticket at them, and you were in. Seems like that could be abused pretty easily.

I actually had a question about that. I had to buy 2 extra tickets for friends and I purchased them through Ticketmaster and I usually print out of a physical ticket. I may have been not paying attention when I bought the tickets on Wednesday but seemingly I selected mobile entry. When my friend asked me to email the PDF on Friday I discovered that I had selected mobile entry and went to try and switch the method of delivery, but the only option it gave me was will call. I'm thinking that this was possibility deliberate to combat the abuse the shayman describes.

I don't recall doing anything other than waving the ticket at the CNE gate in the two previous years either.

[Rich]

'I never noticed any bad decisions'
macbeth's throw in the 4th 1/4 almost resulting in an INT was not a good decision

Maybe you're referring to the thread-the-needle pass to Edwards late in the 3rd. The ball went right through a defender's hands and should have never been thrown. A pick there when we were down 20-10 could have been fatal. MBT followed up with a beauty TD throw on the run to Coombs, but he was extremely fortunate to have been in that position. He might not be so lucky next game.

[lazycro]

Maybe you're referring to the thread-the-needle pass to Edwards late in the 3rd. The ball went right through a defender's hands and should have never been thrown. A pick there when we were down 20-10 could have been fatal. MBT followed up with a beauty TD throw on the run to Coombs, but he was extremely fortunate to have been in that position. He might not be so lucky next game.

Seems to be getting that "ball luck" on some of those that Franklin wasn't MBT could have very different stats for TD/INT if not for some "ball luck"

[paulwoods13]

Ricky Ray threw a lot of passes right through defenders' hands to a receiver. Good QBs can often thread the needle. I like Franklin and I'm very glad we have him, but based on what I've seen of both guys (one game each in person, the rest on PVR), I'm very comfortable with MBT as the starter at this point.

[AngeloV]

I thought it was kind of odd that they only glanced at your Argos ticket when entering the CNE grounds - they didn't scan the barcode on the ticket, they scanned a totally separate barcode on a lanyard the ticket taker was wearing. All you had to do was wave something that looked sort of like an Argos ticket at them, and you were in. Seems like that could be abused pretty easily.

Good point. There was no scanning. I think you could have used an old ticket if you really wanted to get into the grounds for free.

[shayman]

Good point. There was no scanning. I think you could have used an old ticket if you really wanted to get into the grounds for free.

Or buy one ticket, print 50 copies at home, and forget about the game, all your friends get in to the Ex for free.

[ArgoZ]

Good point. There was no scanning. I think you could have used an old ticket if you really wanted to get into the grounds for free.

Funny thing; since we missed the last home game, I tore out and accidentally brought the wrong tickets to the game. I didn’t notice until we entered the Ex. Didn’t matter as they simply waved us in. I did however have to sign in to my account manager and scan off my phone to get into BMO Field.

[Rich]

Ricky Ray threw a lot of passes right through defenders' hands to a receiver. Good QBs can often thread the needle.

Yes, everybody gets lucky every now and then, but surely you're not suggesting that that pass to Edwards was a good decision on MBT's part.

[paulwoods13]

I'm suggesting every qb makes bad decisions, and it sure looks to me as if MBT has made fewer bad decisions (and bad throws) than Franklin made in his starts. As I said, I like Franklin and I'm glad we have him. But I see no point diminishing what MBT has done in his two starts.

[AngeloV]

Yes, everybody gets lucky every now and then, but surely you're not suggesting that that pass to Edwards was a good decision on MBT's part.

As I mentioned earlier, sometimes you have to give credit to the D.

[macspectrum]

As I mentioned earlier, sometimes you have to give credit to the D.

i still think that carter would be a very pronounced deep threat and force defences to respect the long pass

[Rich]

As I mentioned earlier, sometimes you have to give credit to the D.

Give credit to the D for blowing an easy pick?

[macspectrum]

I'm suggesting every qb makes bad decisions, and it sure looks to me as if MBT has made fewer bad decisions (and bad throws) than Franklin made in his starts. As I said, I like Franklin and I'm glad we have him. But I see no point diminishing what MBT has done in his two starts.

wholeheartedly agree and i really enjoy his workman-like attitude
he always wants to get better and he spreads his success to other players - i like him !

'never stop fighting till the fight is done'

now for 2 pts - what movie is that quote from ?
google not allowed

[Rich]

I'm suggesting every qb makes bad decisions, and it sure looks to me as if MBT has made fewer bad decisions (and bad throws) than Franklin made in his starts. As I said, I like Franklin and I'm glad we have him. But I see no point diminishing what MBT has done in his two starts.

I like MBT too but as I said it would be nice to see some improvement in each start and I don't think we saw that on Saturday. He seems to have had all the breaks going his way in 2 games whereas Franklin had nothing go his way in his starts with lots of dropped balls, tipped picks and so on. On top of that the receiving corps has been upgraded greatly for MBT so a comparison between the play of the two so far seems kinda unfair.

[macspectrum]

I like MBT too but as I said it would be nice to see some improvement in each start and I don't think we saw that on Saturday. He seems to have had all the breaks going his way in 2 games whereas Franklin had nothing go his way in his starts with lots of dropped balls, tipped picks and so on. On top of that the receiving corps has been upgraded greatly for MBT so a comparison between the play of the two so far seems kinda unfair.

i'll take lucky over good any day of the week

i still think macbeth is a more serious qb

'luck is when preparedness meets opportunity'
- anatoli tarasov, sovet hockey coach [altho' quote has been attributed to philosophers of yore]

[paulwoods13]

I like MBT too but as I said it would be nice to see some improvement in each start and I don't think we saw that on Saturday. He seems to have had all the breaks going his way in 2 games whereas Franklin had nothing go his way in his starts with lots of dropped balls, tipped picks and so on. On top of that the receiving corps has been upgraded greatly for MBT so a comparison between the play of the two so far seems kinda unfair.

Did Franklin get better from start 1 to start 4? Yes, he had some drops and tips, also threw some bad passes. No question that MBT had a better receiving corps in start 2 than Franklin had in any of his starts. I don't think a comparison between the two is unfair but I also don't think it's necessary because MBT is clearly the starter for now and probably for weeks to come.

[Stevoman]

I'm suggesting every qb makes bad decisions, and it sure looks to me as if MBT has made fewer bad decisions (and bad throws) than Franklin made in his starts. As I said, I like Franklin and I'm glad we have him. But I see no point diminishing what MBT has done in his two starts.

MBT is winning and doing some excellent things. His footwork, composure, and strong passes are excellent and he does remind me of a Mike Reilly type of quarterback. I do have to say that playing back to backs against Edmonton and Winnipeg is a more difficult stretch though and so I do think Franklin would have done well the last two games also and that MBT would've struggled more had he played in those other games, but, you go with who's winning.

[argolio]

Could have been the turning point in a bad way when we turned it over on downs and then they came down and scored. Good job by the whole team overcoming that.

[Rich]

MBT is winning and doing some excellent things. His footwork, composure, and strong passes are excellent and he does remind me of a Mike Reilly type of quarterback. I do have to say that playing back to backs against Edmonton and Winnipeg is a more difficult stretch though and so I do think Franklin would have done well the last two games also and that MBT would've struggled more had he played in those other games, but, you go with who's winning.

Absolutely, and nobody should be complaining if we keep winning. But what if MBT keeps playing at this level and we lose a couple of games? Under those circumstances they would have to consider giving Franklin another chance to start, no?

[paulwoods13]

But what if MBT keeps playing at this level and we lose a couple of games? Under those circumstances they would have to consider giving Franklin another chance to start, no?

Not a chance IMO. "This level" is higher than what we saw from Franklin.

[Shatto]

MBT has looked more composed and has been definitely more successful than Franklin. He deserves to keep playing even if he suffers an occasional loss.

[AngeloV]

Absolutely, and nobody should be complaining if we keep winning. But what if MBT keeps playing at this level and we lose a couple of games? Under those circumstances they would have to consider giving Franklin another chance to start, no?

I really don't know what you are watching Rich. "this level"? He's been fantastic. 560 yard in 2 games with 5 TD's and 1 INT and 2 victories. What were you really expecting? He outplayed a really good QB in Lulay on Saturday and as for the ball that went through the defenders hands, well that happens every game to every QB. Lulay on back to back plays had INT's dropped by Cassius Vaughan.

[Jon Gonzo]

Absolutely, and nobody should be complaining if we keep winning. But what if MBT keeps playing at this level and we lose a couple of games? Under those circumstances they would have to consider giving Franklin another chance to start, no?

Of course there are no pictures on the scorecard, a win is a win is a win, but this guy is showing intangibles that are hard not to be intrigued by. You want intelligence, guts and character and I haven't seen a single indication that he doesn't have all of that. Having Franklin around is only a bonus. He'll get his time. I predicted this team would be .500 on/or just after Labour Day and I see no reason why I wouldn't stick to that. I also see no reason to over-analyse good fortune. It comes, and it goes. That's football.

[ArgoRavi]

The Argos had only 2 two and outs for the entire game on Saturday and both happened to be in the fourth quarter. Bethel-Thompson did an excellent job moving the offence for most of the game. I thought that he played at quite a high level that day.

[Argo57]

I really don't know what you are watching Rich. "this level"? He's been fantastic. 560 yard in 2 games with 5 TD's and 1 INT and 2 victories. What were you really expecting? He outplayed a really good QB in Lulay on Saturday and as for the ball that went through the defenders hands, well that happens every game to every QB. Lulay on back to back plays had INT's dropped by Cassius Vaughan.

Not bad for his first 2 starts!
There will be bumps along the way which will help in his development.

[RB957]

Did Franklin get better from start 1 to start 4? Yes, he had some drops and tips, also threw some bad passes. No question that MBT had a better receiving corps in start 2 than Franklin had in any of his starts. I don't think a comparison between the two is unfair but I also don't think it's necessary because MBT is clearly the starter for now and probably for weeks to come.

And by virtue of his play, he has earned it. I see this as a real litmus test of Franklin's character. He was given the starter's job and now has lost it. How does he react? Will it light a fire in his belly so that if he gets another shot, he will do even more to hang on to it? In Saturday's game, he played his part in the short yardage offence scoring two TD's and seems to still be all in as a team player. That impressed me. So in the long run, this could be a positive. And it's not a bad thing that we have him in reserve if anything happens to MBT.

[AngeloV]

And by virtue of his play, he has earned it. I see this as a real litmus test of Franklin's character. He was given the starter's job and now has lost it. How does he react? Will it light a fire in his belly so that if he gets another shot, he will do even more to hang on to it? In Saturday's game, he played his part in the short yardage offence scoring two TD's and seems to still be all in as a team player. That impressed me. So in the long run, this could be a positive. And it's not a bad thing that we have him in reserve if anything happens to MBT.

Biggest question for Franklin is should MBT continue to play well and become the undisputed starter, he will be in for a big raise next year, assuming this is the last year on his entry level deal. Will the Argos be willing to continue to pay Franklin what they are currently paying him (rumoured to be over 200k). That's big coin for a back up.

[Rich]

The Argos had only 2 two and outs for the entire game on Saturday and both happened to be in the fourth quarter. Bethel-Thompson did an excellent job moving the offence for most of the game. I thought that he played at quite a high level that day.

You call MBT's play "excellent" and Angelo calls it "fantastic", but the majority of comments in this thread are something like "MBT was good-but-not-great", which is the way I see it too. Of course it's ridiculous to expect a QB to be truly great in his 2nd start, but until/unless he reaches that next level of quality, nobody should be anointing him as the undisputed starter.

[Rich]

Biggest question for Franklin is should MBT continue to play well and become the undisputed starter, he will be in for a big raise next year, assuming this is the last year on his entry level deal. Will the Argos be willing to continue to pay Franklin what they are currently paying him (rumoured to be over 200k). That's big coin for a back up.

The problem for Franklin in that scenario is that it's not likely any other CFL team will be looking for a starter next season, so he loses that leverage. He may be forced to accept a pay cut and keep the starter's bonuses.

[macspectrum]

The problem for Franklin in that scenario is that it's not likely any other CFL team will be looking for a starter next season, so he loses that leverage. He may be forced to accept a pay cut and keep the starter's bonuses.

i think winnipeg might be a place

[paulwoods13]

You call MBT's play "excellent" and Angelo calls it "fantastic", but the majority of comments in this thread are something like "MBT was good-but-not-great", which is the way I see it too. Of course it's ridiculous to expect a QB to be truly great in his 2nd start, but until/unless he reaches that next level of quality, nobody should be anointing him as the undisputed starter.

That's not my read of the comments (here and on Twitter) about MBT. I don't see anyone declaring him the next superstar (nor should anyone do that at this stage) but most fans (not just of the Argos) seem to have been pretty impressed with his performance, and rightly so. Regardless of fan opinions, I don't think there's much doubt he has played better in his two starts than JF played in his four starts. I don't think there's any doubt in the coaches' minds as to who should be starting right now.

[paulwoods13]

The problem for Franklin in that scenario is that it's not likely any other CFL team will be looking for a starter next season, so he loses that leverage. He may be forced to accept a pay cut and keep the starter's bonuses.

I could see Montreal, B.C., Saskatchewan and possibly Calgary (if BLM tries the NFL) and Edmonton (if B.C. signs Reilly) needing a QB next year. IMO there will be a healthy market for Franklin if he is made available.

[Jon Gonzo]

There is also a healthy market in Toronto for both QB's. You need two, at least, in the CFL. I think people get way too in front of themselves sometimes.

[macspectrum]

There is also a healthy market in Toronto for both QB's. You need two, at least, in the CFL. I think people get way too in front of themselves sometimes.

i harken back to the days of holloway / barnes
1983 gc barnes replaced holloway to start the 2nd half
argos went on to win

[AngeloV]

There is also a healthy market in Toronto for both QB's. You need two, at least, in the CFL. I think people get way too in front of themselves sometimes.

Don't disagree. I was talking strictly from a financial point. If MBT continues to roll and is the clear #1 heading into next season, would the Argos deem Franklin's contract too high for a backup? I would hope not, but you never know. It goes without saying this all just hypothetical.

[macspectrum]

Don't disagree. I was talking strictly from a financial point. If MBT continues to roll and is the clear #1 heading into next season, would the Argos deem Franklin's contract too high for a backup? I would hope not, but you never know. It goes without saying this all just hypothetical.

mbt or macbeth as i prefer, may not want to be #1 qb and pd less than backup
fajardo would sure as hell still look good in an argo jersey

[Rich]

I don't think there's much doubt he has played better in his two starts than JF played in his four starts.

I would argue that MBT didn't play any better against BC than JF did in the Edmonton win. And can we confidently reject the possibility that given Coombs, Alford, Smith and Bomben to work with, Franklin might have played even better than MBT did against the Lions? It's like a different offence with those guys in it, and JF never got the chance to use it.

[paulwoods13]

As I said above, there is no doubt MBT has a better offence to work with. That doesn't change my opinion that MBT has played better than JF did, and deserves to keep starting until and unless his play deteriorates significantly. Again, I like Franklin, but I've liked what I've seen from MBT a lot more. Stronger arm, more decisive, better reads, more zip on his throws, seems to inspire greater confidence among his teammates. One can lament JF's bad luck to have run an offence without Coombs, Alford and Bomben, but that's not in itself reason to change up what is clearly working. I know you like JF, Rich (and again, so do I), but I think you are arguing against pretty solid evidence here.

[Rich]

One can lament JF's bad luck to have run an offence without Coombs, Alford and Bomben, but that's not in itself reason to change up what is clearly working.

No, definitely not, but it IS a reason to consider putting him back in if MBT struggles.