Game Thread - September 22, 2018 - Shredded Wheat @ Argonauts

[Will]

Just win baby!

[Wobbler]

Where there's a Will, there's a way.

[gilthethrill]

I will be livid if Collaros puts up big numbers.

[Will]

I will be livid if Collaros puts up big numbers.

Mike Archer is still defensive coordinator.

[jerrym]

Shredded Wheat @ Argonauts (http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?5723-Game-Thread-September-22-2018-Shredded-Wheat-Argonauts)




Just win baby!


Better yet, unleash Carter and shred them.

[lazycro]

Carter and Green on the same side of the field.... interesting

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Where there's a Will, there's a way.

How long have you been holding that one back Wobbler?

[AngeloV]

Dowling at safety, Woodson on the corner, Williams back in at WR. 8 Nationals starting.

a little disappointed not to see McCluster in the line-up.

[gilthethrill]

Dowling at safety, Woodson on the corner, Williams back in at WR. 8 Nationals starting.

a little disappointed not to see McCluster in the line-up.

I assumed it would be either McCluster or Alford replacing Jackson as return man. I didn't think it too likely that Likely would have that job.

[jerrym]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">And the full depth ⤵️ <a href="https://t.co/hzbT6ywUGy">pic.twitter.com/hzbT6ywUGy</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/1043153141955547138?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[jerrym]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here’s how we’ll lineup Saturday in Toronto, taking on the <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TorontoArgos</a>.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/RiderPride?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#RiderPride</a> <a href="https://t.co/yVbsZL0DvG">pic.twitter.com/yVbsZL0DvG</a></p>&mdash; Saskatchewan Roughriders (@sskroughriders) <a href="https://twitter.com/sskroughriders/status/1043152951278268418?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[paulwoods13]

Dowling at safety, Woodson on the corner, Williams back in at WR. 8 Nationals starting.

a little disappointed not to see McCluster in the line-up.

I take these depth charts with a huge grain of salt, but IMO Dowling should be lined up at LB, and Darby should be at HB or CB. Of course, they move the back seven around a ton so it may not matter.

[Wobbler]

How long have you been holding that one back Wobbler?
Blackadder: No, not really. This is a different thing; it's spontaneous and it's called wit.

[Stevoman]

Argos are going to win this one!

[jerrym]

I think Carter could be focused and determined to have a good night against Jones for keeping him in a DB straightjacket and to show Trestman how good he is (or at least thinks he is). Of course this depends on whether Trestman lets him off the leash.

[ArgoZ]

https://youtu.be/-GSU8RBbPKU

Our new kick returner for this week anyway, Will Likely.

[lazycro]

Noticed some people with a bbq behind the cop shop last game (parking lot behind the go train) anyone from here?

[ArgofanIan]

Perfect Football weather... looking forward to a big win.... and hopefully the start of our playoff drive..... GO ARRRRGOS !!!!

[argolio]

If we can handle their speed on D, I see good things.

[jerrym]

MBT once again fails to throw an accurate 20 yard pass. I think I see a pattern here. This time the result is an interception.

[Neely2005]

Here's a novel idea, how about for a change we don't let the opposing team score on the opening drive.

[jerrym]

Argos making dumb mistakes: no end, offsides on third down to give a first down leading to a TD, and a lucky break from a procedure call before the play to give them a chance at a FG. So far this team looks amateurish.

[jerrym]

Great catch and run by Green setting up Argo TD.

[jerrym]

Credit to Thigpen for his speed and shiftiness, but once again it's assisted by shoddy Argo tackling. One play after tying the game. This team is sure tries one's patience (I'm being diplomatic).

[ArgoTD]

At BMO tonight watching the game. For some unexplainable reason Trestman has Smith playing receiver and Carters on the bench watching. What is Trestman thinking?!,!?

[ArgoTD]

This D is embarrassing. Archer has to go - and Inqould even support him leaving at half time!

[jerrym]

This D is embarrassing. Archer has to go - and Inqould even support him leaving at half time!

The DL does not create much pressure and with one experienced DB (Yell who is so-so) and the rest first or second year tonight, it's a recipe for a lot of points against.

[jerrym]

At BMO tonight watching the game. For some unexplainable reason Trestman has Smith playing receiver and Carters on the bench watching. What is Trestman thinking?!,!?

Wilder has also been off the field for several offensive series.

[jerrym]

Wilder is playing with greater intensity in the second half, driving through people on his runs and making a great catch on BMT's overthrow, giving us a chance.

[jerrym]

Trumaine's pick six ties it up!

[R.J]

Fans can blame the defence all they want for this loss, but Archer's D kept Saskatchewan to 2 field goals in the second half. Argos offence only scored 1 TD all game, 1 TD scored by the D, and Medeiros accounted for the rest of the points....

The "Genius" Marc Trestman sits Wilder for a large chunk of the first half, then uses Wilder predominantly in the passing game instead of rushing the ball in the second half. Carter is only targeted once, and sits most of the game.

Argos just have to continue to trust "the process".... at least they have a good locker room....

[Bleeds Double Blue]

A good effort that comes up short again. We have turned into the Browns of the CFL.

Also, I don't know why we signed Duron Carter to sit on the bench.

[jerrym]

The MBT question remains can he throw the long ball with any accuracy.

[Argo57]

The MBT question remains can he throw the long ball with any accuracy.

Certainly not one of his strengths.

[Argo57]

A good effort that comes up short again. We have turned into the Browns of the CFL.

Also, I don't know why we signed Duron Carter to sit on the bench.

The whole Duron Carter thing is a head scratcher, fills a huge need for the Argos and isn’t being used?

[paulwoods13]

Carter dogged it back to the huddle after he was targeted on an incompletion in the second quarter. Didn't see much action after that. I wouldn't be surprised if he has already tried Trestman's patience, but we'll never find out if there's anything to this theory.

Complain about the offence and the qb all you want (and both deserve some criticism), but the defence was not able to get a stop when Sask was backed up deep in its own end with four minutes to go. As has been the case all season, when the opponent really needed yards, receivers came into wide open spaces.

Despite that, the game might have been won had we not wasted 16 seconds in the final minute. MBT clearly did not get a Play call in his helmet and time ticked away sorting it out and then running a poorly executed play that failed. A time-out should have been called -- we could have saved some clock and run a better play, and maybe would have got the ball closer than a 51-yard field goal.

[mchesher03]

Trestman will have to answer for how little he used Carter and wilder. Regardless, another winnable game that slipped away - but really does it matter at this point? This isn’t a playoff bound team. Let’s just hope for some bright spots like Washington in the remaining games

[AngeloV]

I have nothing to be upset about after the game. It was a very entertaining game which the Argos should have won. MBT played great against a great defence, and the defence looked great in the 2nd half. As I said after the Ti-Cats loss at home, I'm just going to go and enjoy every game on a game by game basis. Again, it was a great game to watch.

[Argo57]

Carter dogged it back to the huddle after he was targeted on an incompletion in the second quarter. Didn't see much action after that. I wouldn't be surprised if he has already tried Trestman's patience, but we'll never find out if there's anything to this theory.

Complain about the offence and the qb all you want (and both deserve some criticism), but the defence was not able to get a stop when Sask was backed up deep in its own end with four minutes to go. As has been the case all season, when the opponent really needed yards, receivers came into wide open spaces.

Despite that, the game might have been won had we not wasted 16 seconds in the final minute. MBT clearly did not get a Play call in his helmet and time ticked away sorting it out and then running a poorly executed play that failed. A time-out should have been called -- we could have saved some clock and run a better play, and maybe would have got the ball closer than a 51-yard field goal.

The Argo D has been the biggest issue this season and has consistently failed to make critical stops in 2018.
Argos tie the game up then give up a long TD run by Thigpen which pretty much sums up 2018.

[Shatto]

On a positive note---the weather was perfect football weather!

This game again demonstrated that MBT is not the QB of the future for the team. He is a 30 year old capable journeyman backup. With playoffs basically out of reach, it is time to see if Franklin can do the job. I doubt it will happen, as it appears Trestman wants BMT as his QB

Trestman's handling of the Carter situation is a head scratcher. He alternated Carter with the rather ineffective Smith and even when it was his time to play in the last minute, Carter was on the sidelines. He was only thrown to once and that pass was short and lucky not to be intercepted. It is almost as if Trestman is indicating he didn't want Carter to begin with and is refusing to use him in the game. Forget the excuse Carter needs to learn the offense---other players are here for a shorter amount of time and are playing full time.

The defense did play better in the second half. Watching Little closely, it appears he could be a very good CB for the team. Washington's two interceptions were a thing of beauty. He is a keeper and is a difference maker on defense. Tuggle replaced a banged up Woods at some point in the game and frankly performed better than Woods.

In spite of everything, if the two teams had exchanged kickers, the Argos would have won this game.

[Argo57]

I have nothing to be upset about after the game. It was a very entertaining game which the Argos should have won. MBT played great against a great defence, and the defence looked great in the 2nd half. As I said after the Ti-Cats loss at home, I'm just going to go and enjoy every game on a game by game basis. Again, it was a great game to watch.

I’m trying the same approach Angelo but struggle with my inner rage when watching the 2018 Argonauts.

[R.J]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">1Of note during the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Argos</a> 4-game losing streak:<br><br>at Montreal they were outscored 9-0 during 4Q<br>at Hamilton they were outscored 18-0 during 4Q<br>vs Hamilton they were outscored 11-6 during 4Q<br>vs Saskatchewan they were outscored 3-2 during 4Q</p>&mdash; Argofans.com (@Argofans) <a href="https://twitter.com/Argofans/status/1043716705602560000?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 23, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


I'm glad someone else has noticed this. Not surprised that the defence is getting blamed yet again for another loss though....

[Will]

I don't know if figuratively is the right word to use here, but it figures (for the 2018 Argos) that their kicker can make a 56-yarder while the Argos kicker misses two in the last few minutes.

[Stevoman]

The Argos defense was weak in the first half but tightened up in the second. Our offense and quarterback play had some good drives but continue to struggle finishing them off. MBT continues the high percentage offense but struggles throwing deep. If he had thrown a better ball to Wilder in the 3rd (where Wilder had to acrobatically catch it) he likely would've had a much bigger gain. The other unfortunate pass (aside from the pick 6) was on the second last play to a wide open Green. Without the quite amazing pick 6 by Washington, the Argos likely wouldn't have even had a chance to win in the second half. I agree that this season is done and so why not switch to your players for next year. MBT has been adequate but it is time to see Franklin back in as starter. Although, playing Calgary next is not going to be pretty no matter who's back there.

Trestman and Popp are a terrific combination and yet I do agree that Trestman has lots to answer for. I don't think that this has been a good year for him and have to wonder when he will deviate from his philosophy (at least a little) and experiment more both with his system and how he utilizes the assembled talent. He is trusting his process but, this year anyway, his process has been flawed.

[Will]

As I look through some statistics, I note that of the Argo receivers only S.J Green and James Wilder averaged more than 10 yards a catch. The rest were under 9 yards a catch.

[paulwoods13]

Trestman's handling of the Carter situation is a head scratcher. He alternated Carter with the rather ineffective Smith and even when it was his time to play in the last minute, Carter was on the sidelines. He was only thrown to once and that pass was short and lucky not to be intercepted. It is almost as if Trestman is indicating he didn't want Carter to begin with and is refusing to use him in the game. Forget the excuse Carter needs to learn the offense---other players are here for a shorter amount of time and are playing full time.

As I said above, Carter nonchalantly sauntered back to the huddle after his one target, getting there after the huddle had already ended. He had to be told the play personally by MBT. The previous play was not a deep pass, and any other player would have been in position again within a few seconds. Later in the game, while the offence was on the field, Carter plunked himself down on the bench rather than stand with the other offensive players who might have been substituted in. His body language, to me, indicated a lack of interest in being part of a team. I could be completely wrong but my interpretation is that he is happy only when he's the feature player. If I'm right, he won't last long here.

[paulwoods13]

I agree that this season is done and so why not switch to your players for next year.

While it's incredibly unlikely we will make the playoffs, we are not officially eliminated, and I cannot see the organization going into "experimentation/scouting" mode until we are. As unlikely as it seems, the team could win five or all six of its remaining games, and doing so would likely result in a playoff spot. Therefore they will play whatever combo they believe gives the best chance to win. Two to three weeks from now, the story could be different and at that point, by all means try to figure out what you've got in the pipeline at various positions.


Trestman and Popp are a terrific combination and yet I do agree that Trestman has lots to answer for. I don't think that this has been a good year for him and have to wonder when he will deviate from his philosophy (at least a little) and experiment more both with his system and how he utilizes the assembled talent. He is trusting his process but, this year anyway, his process has been flawed.

There's no question Trestman deserves scrutiny and criticism for the way things have gone this year. It (presumably) wasn't his fault that Chamblin quit, and did so too late for the team to bring in an adequate replacement, but it may be Trestman's fault that Chamblin was allowed to string them along as long as he did. That was commendable but misguided. He's not to blame for his QB being injured in Week 2, but Popp should be held to account for the lack of depth and fresh talent on the o-line. There seems to have been a difference of opinion between Popp and Trestman as to which backup QB should be most carefully developed. Trestman's loyalty to his own guy may have wasted a year of Franklin's development -- not necessarily a wise course given that Franklin is under contract for next year and MBT is not. A lot of these decisions in and of themselves weren't necessarily wrong, but add them all up and it leaves us at 3-9 and facing only a faint hope of being in the tournament at the end.

[AngeloV]

I’m trying the same approach Angelo but struggle with my inner rage when watching the 2018 Argonauts.

I had no rage last night. After a rough start, the D got it together. One thing I noticed in the 2nd half was when the team blitzed, the DB’s were tighter to the receivers than they had been all season which took away an easy hot read. No 10 yard cushion which made a huge difference.

All the whining about MBT is just stupid. He was great last night and was hit on a lot of his pass attempts. The late deep ball which he over threw was because of the pressure and he had to release the ball much earlier than when the receiver broke open. If anyone wants to blame him on that, they either have a huge bias against him, or just have no clue about football.

Yes, it’s frustrating to lose as often as they have this year, but MBT has been the least of the problem.

[paulwoods13]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">1Of note during the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Argos?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Argos</a> 4-game losing streak:<br><br>at Montreal they were outscored 9-0 during 4Q<br>at Hamilton they were outscored 18-0 during 4Q<br>vs Hamilton they were outscored 11-6 during 4Q<br>vs Saskatchewan they were outscored 3-2 during 4Q</p>— Argofans.com (@Argofans) <a href="https://twitter.com/Argofans/status/1043716705602560000?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 23, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


I'm glad someone else has noticed this. Not surprised that the defence is getting blamed yet again for another loss though....

Hey, the offence bears some criticism, but to suggest the defence should not be blamed because it surrendered only three points in Q4, while the offence should be blamed because it scored only two, is faulty reasoning. Yes, the defence played significantly better in the second half than it did in the first (although its biggest play was largely an amazing individual effort). But when the game was on the line -- when we had the lead for the first time all day, with four minutes left and the opposition well out of FG range -- it surrendered easy yardage to two wide-open receivers, three if you include the dropped pass down around the 20. As for the offence, it put us in position in Q4 for six points, not two, if our kicker hadn't missed two makeable FGs. Numbers seldom tell the full story, and 3-2 in Q4 definitely does not tell the full story.

And BTW, what was with the defensive alignment late in the game where Laing and Butler lined up at DE while the regular DEs lined up inside? We got zero pressure from that look, which resulted in an easy completion for a big gain that led to the winning FG. It might be fun for guys to be put into new positions from time to time, but that one didn't come close to working, and the timing was atrocious.

[Argo57]

While it's incredibly unlikely we will make the playoffs, we are not officially eliminated, and I cannot see the organization going into "experimentation/scouting" mode until we are. As unlikely as it seems, the team could win five or all six of its remaining games, and doing so would likely result in a playoff spot. Therefore they will play whatever combo they believe gives the best chance to win. Two to three weeks from now, the story could be different and at that point, by all means try to figure out what you've got in the pipeline at various positions.



There's no question Trestman deserves scrutiny and criticism for the way things have gone this year. It (presumably) wasn't his fault that Chamblin quit, and did so too late for the team to bring in an adequate replacement, but it may be Trestman's fault that Chamblin was allowed to string them along as long as he did. That was commendable but misguided. He's not to blame for his QB being injured in Week 2, but Popp should be held to account for the lack of depth and fresh talent on the o-line. There seems to have been a difference of opinion between Popp and Trestman as to which backup QB should be most carefully developed. Trestman's loyalty to his own guy may have wasted a year of Franklin's development -- not necessarily a wise course given that Franklin is under contract for next year and MBT is not. A lot of these decisions in and of themselves weren't necessarily wrong, but add them all up and it leaves us at 3-9 and facing only a faint hope of being in the tournament at the end.

Well stated Paul, in regards to Franklin my fear is the Argonauts only have him under contract for one more season and as you stated esssentially have wasted a year of development with him.
The most difficult aspect in all of this is harmonizing the organizations short term and long term goals.
Developing a QB in many cases takes a couple of years (or longer) to achieve and you have to let them play through some pretty rough times to gain experience and improve which often contradicts the “win now” philosophy in pro sports.
Trestman has given MBT plenty of opportunity to show what he is capable of and he has played decently but is not our starting QB of the future but instead a good alternative as a backup QB.
Franklin was touted as a can’t miss starter in the CFL so it is critical for the Argos to get him back in the lineup for an extended period of time to truly see what he can do, if they don’t they risk losing him after next season which would be a shame.

[Stevoman]

Well stated Paul, in regards to Franklin my fear is the Argonauts only have him under contract for one more season and as you stated esssentially have wasted a year of development with him.
The most difficult aspect in all of this is harmonizing the organizations short term and long term goals.
Developing a QB in many cases takes a couple of years (or longer) to achieve and you have to let them play through some pretty rough times to gain experience and improve which often contradicts the “win now” philosophy in pro sports.
Trestman has given MBT plenty of opportunity to show what he is capable of and he has played decently but is not our starting QB of the future but instead a good alternative as a backup QB.
Franklin was touted as a can’t miss starter in the CFL so it is critical for the Argos to get him back in the lineup for an extended period of time to truly see what he can do, if they don’t they risk losing him after next season which would be a shame.

These are my sentiments as well. MBT has played adequately enough and I do not have a bias against him and there are aspects of his game that I really like, but I just don't see the point in continuing to develop him at the risk of alienating Franklin who has a bigger upside. We saw this once already with Trevor Harris. In addition, we keep losing and yet Thompson's leash is certainly longer than Franklin's.

[mchesher03]

I agree with Paul’s assessment of Duron’s body language and it’s baffling why he’s here then when in hindsight it could’ve been posey.

[Shatto]

I also noted Carter return slowly to the huddle after that pass but assumed that he may have been slightly shaken up as he had to fight to prevent an interception on an atrociously underthrown ball. Others have occasionally been slow back to the huddle under similar circumstances but they have not been benched.

Trestman has made no secret by words said and words unsaid, he didn't want Carter but he has him and should be utilizing him to help the team win. Yes, Carter has been a problem to other coaches in the past and may be so again but that does not change the fact he is an exceptional receiver who could help this team. It appears Trestman is either being stubborn or attempting to punish Carter for past behaviour. Carter should be on the field playing regularly and if he misbehaves, then he should be suspended or released but the present situation is untenable.

We are whistling past the graveyard if we think this team has any chance of making the playoffs. With the greatest respect, I'm not suggesting wholesale changes at this time but rather using players who might be assets next year. For example, the team has to know if Franklin can be the QB of the future and it only makes sense to give him the reins of the team now to see if he is that guy.

[AngeloV]

I also noted Carter return slowly to the huddle after that pass but assumed that he may have been slightly shaken up as he had to fight to prevent an interception on an atrociously underthrown ball.
.

This is what I'm talking about. I guess some people only see what they want to see. MBT was hit as he released the ball causing the under throw on the play. Yet you word it like it was just a bad throw (atrociously? Really??) I get that the majority of people here are pissed about this season, but examples like this are so off base it's not even funny. I woujld prefer to see Franklin too, but it has nothing to do with the way MBT has played. IMO, that was the best D in the league last night. He was damn good. End of story.

[paulwoods13]

In addition, we keep losing and yet Thompson's leash is certainly longer than Franklin's.

I just don't get this concept. MBT has clearly played better in his starts than JF did in his. And it's not as if MBT is personally costing us games. By the same token (for example), why is Woods getting a longer leash than, say, Jordan or Tuttle had? (And does anyone know if Plummer is ever coming back this season?)

[Argo]

I’m trying the same approach Angelo but struggle with my inner rage when watching the 2018 Argonauts.

This season is toast (no insult to toast intended). We'll see what happens next season, hoping for considerable improvement: otherwise that any changes required are implemented with dispatch (both meanings of the word).

[Bleeds Double Blue]

I'm hoping that Jim Popp puts "find a reliable kicker" on his offseason to-do list. With the game on the line you can't be missing a 36 yarder. That was a back breaker.

[AngeloV]

I just don't get this concept. MBT has clearly played better in his starts than JF did in his. And it's not as if MBT is personally costing us games. By the same token (for example), why is Woods getting a longer leash than, say, Jordan or Tuttle had? (And does anyone know if Plummer is ever coming back this season?)

The Woods example is bang on. Tuggle was playing great in the middle, and I stated at the time I would have kept him there over a returning Woods wearing a cast.

[Stevoman]

I just don't get this concept. MBT has clearly played better in his starts than JF did in his. And it's not as if MBT is personally costing us games. By the same token (for example), why is Woods getting a longer leash than, say, Jordan or Tuttle had? (And does anyone know if Plummer is ever coming back this season?)

MBT has 2 wins in 6 games and Franklin 1 in 4. Neither are getting it done. Both do not have nearly enough touchdowns thrown and MBT's interceptions are starting to add up. I agree that Woods has been given a longer leash as well and Carter hasn't been given any at all. Our coach has his guys and he's committed to them. On one hand, I respect and admire it, on the other, I think he's crazy.

This season, no one has been good enough (except for Declan Cross and maybe Darby). Switching quarterbacks every other game doesn't work either but MBT is not the long term answer. I love his story and can see him getting another game (against Calgary) but after that loss, it's time to develop for the future.

[AngeloV]

MBT has 2 wins in 6 games and Franklin 1 in 4. Neither are getting it done. Both do not have nearly enough touchdowns thrown and MBT's interceptions are starting to add up. I agree that Woods has been given a longer leash as well and Carter hasn't been given any at all. Our coach has his guys and he's committed to them. On one hand, I respect and admire it, on the other, I think he's crazy.

This season, no one has been good enough (except for Declan Cross and maybe Darby). Switching quarterbacks every other game doesn't work either but MBT is not the long term answer. I love his story and can see him getting another game (against Calgary) but after that loss, it's time to develop for the future.

Franklin was terrible in 2 of his 4 starts though. I don’t get where MBT can’t be He future. At 30 he has at least 5 or 6 years possible quality seasons ahead of him. Not saying I would not prefer him to JF, but this anti MBT stuff is ridiculous. I guess there must always be a scapegoat amongst certain fans. I defended JF when he struggled, and MBT has played much better than he did, and that is a fact.

[gilthethrill]

I really think the qb "won loss record" that has been introduced a couple years ago is so over used. So MBT took the "loss" last night. A missed 36 yard FG in the 4th quarter contributed mightily. MBT played well enough for the team to win....the qb "won loss" stat does not cover that.

[Argo57]

This is what I'm talking about. I guess some people only see what they want to see. MBT was hit as he released the ball causing the under throw on the play. Yet you word it like it was just a bad throw (atrociously? Really??) I get that the majority of people here are pissed about this season, but examples like this are so off base it's not even funny. I woujld prefer to see Franklin too, but it has nothing to do with the way MBT has played. IMO, that was the best D in the league last night. He was damn good. End of story.

MBT has played well at times and made some critical errors as well which should be expected however I wonder if we’ve already seen his maximum upside already (only time will tell).
My point is I suspect Franklin has more upside and the time is rapidly approaching to give him another look.
I would hate to see the Argos dither around with another QB prospect and have him leave after the 2019 season to go elsewhere.
Upgrade the surrounding talent on O would also give a better indication of how good Franklin or MBT could be.
Argos record with developing young QB prospects is not so impressive.

[AngeloV]

MBT has played well at times and made some critical errors as well which should be expected however I wonder if we’ve already seen his maximum upside already (only time will tell).
My point is I suspect Franklin has more upside and the time is rapidly approaching to give him another look.
I would hate to see the Argos dither around with another QB prospect and have him leave after the 2019 season to go elsewhere.
Upgrade the surrounding talent on O would also give a better indication of how good Franklin or MBT could be.
Argos record with developing young QB prospects is not so impressive.

And again, I don’t disagree with that. My issue is with the stupidity of people blaming MBT. Indon’t Think he has reached his limit at all. He hasn’t played enough gam reps to determine that. He dressed for 9 games last year with zero reps and has played 6 games. With some timely FG kicking, they can easily be 4-2 and should at least be 3-3. Like I said, the usual suspects are needing a scape goat, and it appears he is it. It’s always the QB’s fault when they lose. There were tons of cat calls towards JF during the Winnipeg home games in which the offenc produced 3 points, and yet Trestman who some feel has no use for JF started him the following week again. People were angry then too.

[Will]

While it's incredibly unlikely we will make the playoffs, we are not officially eliminated, and I cannot see the organization going into "experimentation/scouting" mode until we are. As unlikely as it seems, the team could win five or all six of its remaining games, and doing so would likely result in a playoff spot. Therefore they will play whatever combo they believe gives the best chance to win. Two to three weeks from now, the story could be different and at that point, by all means try to figure out what you've got in the pipeline at various positions.



There's no question Trestman deserves scrutiny and criticism for the way things have gone this year. It (presumably) wasn't his fault that Chamblin quit, and did so too late for the team to bring in an adequate replacement, but it may be Trestman's fault that Chamblin was allowed to string them along as long as he did. That was commendable but misguided. He's not to blame for his QB being injured in Week 2, but Popp should be held to account for the lack of depth and fresh talent on the o-line. There seems to have been a difference of opinion between Popp and Trestman as to which backup QB should be most carefully developed. Trestman's loyalty to his own guy may have wasted a year of Franklin's development -- not necessarily a wise course given that Franklin is under contract for next year and MBT is not. A lot of these decisions in and of themselves weren't necessarily wrong, but add them all up and it leaves us at 3-9 and facing only a faint hope of being in the tournament at the end.

Does anybody remember when the first rumblings of Chamblin leaving occurred? My recollection is that it was much earlier in the off-season than when it was actually made public that he wasn't coming back. The team should've set itself a firm deadline to Chamblin as to him making a decision. But maybe they were set on Archer as a replacement from the get go. Hate to say it, but that LB spot was an area of strength last year and Archer may just be a victim of the Peter principle.

[Argo57]

And again, I don’t disagree with that. My issue is with the stupidity of people blaming MBT. Indon’t Think he has reached his limit at all. He hasn’t played enough gam reps to determine that. He dressed for 9 games last year with zero reps and has played 6 games. With some timely FG kicking, they can easily be 4-2 and should at least be 3-3. Like I said, the usual suspects are needing a scape goat, and it appears he is it. It’s always the QB’s fault when they lose. There were tons of cat calls towards JF during the Winnipeg home games in which the offenc produced 3 points, and yet Trestman who some feel has no use for JF started him the following week again. People were angry then too.

Agreed, the Argos have plenty of other issues (higher on the list) than MBT’s play.
Upgrade the O-Line, receivers and even play selection would be a good start.
You also made a good point last night when we talked, perhaps Marcus Brady’s role with the Argos has been understated and his departure has effected the O more than many (including myself anticipated).

[Argo57]

Does anybody remember when the first rumblings of Chamblin leaving occurred? My recollection is that it was much earlier in the off-season than when it was actually made public that he wasn't coming back. The team should've set itself a firm deadline to Chamblin as to him making a decision. But maybe they were set on Archer as a replacement from the get go. Hate to say it, but that LB spot was an area of strength last year and Archer may just be a victim of the Peter principle.

Wouldn’t be the first time a competent positional coach has sh*t the bed when promoted to coordinator.

[Will]

Wouldn’t be the first time a competent positional coach has sh*t the bed when promoted to coordinator.

Nope

[Argo57]

Nope

Argos D showed some pre snap confusion before some plays last night, is that coaching or simply the byproduct of having different players in and out of the lineup this season?
Perhaps both?

[Will]

Argos D showed some pre snap confusion before some plays last night, is that coaching or simply the byproduct of having different players in and out of the lineup this season?

I'd have to say both. I've been as critical of Archer as anybody here, but there is a serious lack of experience in the Argo secondary.

[Stevoman]

And again, I don’t disagree with that. My issue is with the stupidity of people blaming MBT. Indon’t Think he has reached his limit at all. He hasn’t played enough gam reps to determine that. He dressed for 9 games last year with zero reps and has played 6 games. With some timely FG kicking, they can easily be 4-2 and should at least be 3-3. Like I said, the usual suspects are needing a scape goat, and it appears he is it. It’s always the QB’s fault when they lose. There were tons of cat calls towards JF during the Winnipeg home games in which the offenc produced 3 points, and yet Trestman who some feel has no use for JF started him the following week again. People were angry then too.

I think it's kind of true that the back up quarterback is always the most popular with the fans!

[cfl-cis fan]

Agreed, the Argos have plenty of other issues (higher on the list) than MBT’s play.
Upgrade the O-Line, receivers and even play selection would be a good start.
You also made a good point last night when we talked, perhaps Marcus Brady’s role with the Argos has been understated and his departure has effected the O more than many (including myself anticipated).

Absolutely affected the play calling. There is something else at play here which is the QB and progression read.

[gilthethrill]

I'd have to say both. I've been as critical of Archer as anybody here, but there is a serious lack of experience in the Argo secondary.

I think the problem starts up front on defence. Lack of sacks and pressure has made life difficult for the secondary. Victor Butler retiring really hurt.

[AngeloV]

I think it's kind of true that the back up quarterback is always the most popular with the fans!

This is true.

[Argo]

I think the problem starts up front on defence. Lack of sacks and pressure has made life difficult for the secondary. Victor Butler retiring really hurt.

Ode to Calgary... year after year after year ... always seeming to find all the high-quality players they need at whatever position. The Argos lose one piece of the puzzle and it's a catastrophe.

Do I exaggerate? Not so much.

[ArgoGabe22]

Duron Carter has been a disappointment thus far (not all on him). Seems like MBT focuses on Edwards first, then Green. I want to see him unleashed and targeted more often but it is a pet peeve of mine looking at his body language, and his lack of hustle to get in the huddle. I benched kids for walking on the field.

[R.J]

Does anybody remember when the first rumblings of Chamblin leaving occurred? My recollection is that it was much earlier in the off-season than when it was actually made public that he wasn't coming back. The team should've set itself a firm deadline to Chamblin as to him making a decision. But maybe they were set on Archer as a replacement from the get go. Hate to say it, but that LB spot was an area of strength last year and Archer may just be a victim of the Peter principle.
IIRC there was something in late October that Chamblin had an out in his contract (for an HC gig IIRC). Later in one of the 3down podcasts it was brought up that not long after the GC win, Chamblin notified the team that he may not return. I can;t recall if his father had past away at that time or if he gotten ill at that point then past. From my understanding Popp and Trestman were aware sometime in December, but I'd have to find that podcast again.

[Rich]

This is what I'm talking about. I guess some people only see what they want to see. MBT was hit as he released the ball causing the under throw on the play. Yet you word it like it was just a bad throw (atrociously? Really??) I get that the majority of people here are pissed about this season, but examples like this are so off base it's not even funny. I woujld prefer to see Franklin too, but it has nothing to do with the way MBT has played. IMO, that was the best D in the league last night. He was damn good. End of story.

It's like you're arguing with yourself. You say you'd like to see Franklin start, but you get salty with people who have different reasons for wanting to see Franklin start. The reasons why aren't that important. Either you want Franklin to start or you don't, end of story.

[cfl-cis fan]

I miss Brady so much .......

[Rich]

MBT has played well at times and made some critical errors as well which should be expected however I wonder if we’ve already seen his maximum upside already (only time will tell).
My point is I suspect Franklin has more upside and the time is rapidly approaching to give him another look.
I would hate to see the Argos dither around with another QB prospect and have him leave after the 2019 season to go elsewhere.
Upgrade the surrounding talent on O would also give a better indication of how good Franklin or MBT could be.
Argos record with developing young QB prospects is not so impressive.

I agree strongly with all of this. Trestman has painted himself into a corner with this QB situation. If Franklin comes back and lights it up for the rest of the season -- a big if, but you never know -- then Trestman's MBT experiment will be rightly seen as a massive blunder that ruined the season. He might be disinclined to start Franklin for this very reason.

[Rich]

MBT has clearly played better in his starts than JF did in his.

This argument gets harder and harder to make with every additional loss started by MBT. I would argue that Franklin's performance on July 7 against the Esks was at least as good as any of MBT's last four starts.

[AngeloV]

It's like you're arguing with yourself. You say you'd like to see Franklin start, but you get salty with people who have different reasons for wanting to see Franklin start. The reasons why aren't that important. Either you want Franklin to start or you don't, end of story.

No, I get salty when I see people blaming MBT for the loss, and reading ridiculous comments about his play. I want Franklin to start because I believe in him and want to see if his benching had a negative or positive effect on him, but at the same time, based on performance this season, I fully understand why MBT is starting. As I have said numerous times, he has performed the best of any of our QB's this season.

I'll say it again, the Argos failed to score more than 20 points in their first 6 games, games in which MBT didn't play 1 down in. The Argos have scored more than 20 points in each of their next 6 games, games MBT started. How does anyone not see that he has been our best on field QB this season?

[paulwoods13]

This argument gets harder and harder to make with every additional loss started by MBT. I would argue that Franklin's performance on July 7 against the Esks was at least as good as any of MBT's last four starts.

At the risk of seeming to dump on Franklin (whom I really like, as I have said more than once), I'd take that argument. IMO MBT has surpassed JF's July 7 performance more than once, including on Saturday when he brought us back from a deficit in the fourth quarter and put us in position to win the game at the end. Conversely, none of MBT's performances has come close to being as bad as JF's three-pick effort on July 27.

I get that JF had an o-line that was performing worse than it is now (albeit it didn't play very well on Saturday IMO). When we are officially eliminated from the playoffs, I do want to see Franklin get another shot so the org has a greater database of info about both guys.

(BTW, for whoever was asking about when Bomben moved into the o-line, he backed up in game 7 against Ottawa, and began starting the following week against B.C.)

[ArgoRavi]

Both do not have nearly enough touchdowns thrown and MBT's interceptions are starting to add up.

MBT has thrown just 4 INTs in six starts, along with 8 TDs. Franklin threw 6 INTs in his four starts, along with just 2 TDs. I don't see any evidence that MBT's interceptions "are starting to add up".

[Stevoman]

MBT has thrown just 4 INTs in six starts, along with 8 TDs. Franklin threw 6 INTs in his four starts, along with just 2 TDs. I don't see any evidence that MBT's interceptions "are starting to add up".

His TD/INT ratio is getting worse, which is really what i meant by his INT's starting to add up. Currently 2/1 which is fine but it was a better ratio a few weeks ago. The biggest problem for the Argos all year, regardless of who is at quarterback, is settling for 3's instead of 7's. 8 TD's in 6 games is not good enough and neither is 2 in 4. MBT needs to get back to a kind of game with 3 TD's with only 1 pick or preferably zero. The receivers need to run better routes to create more separation too. That pick 6 was into triple coverage because the receivers didn't run it well enough for the area to get cleared. Still not sure why he still decided to throw that one though. To MBT's credit, that mistake didn't seem to phase him much but it sure hurt on the scoreboard.

[AngeloV]

His TD/INT ratio is getting worse, which is really what i meant by his INT's starting to add up. Currently 2/1 which is fine but it was a better ratio a few weeks ago. The biggest problem for the Argos all year, regardless of who is at quarterback, is settling for 3's instead of 7's. 8 TD's in 6 games is not good enough and neither is 2 in 4. MBT needs to get back to a kind of game with 3 TD's with only 1 pick or preferably zero. The receivers need to run better routes to create more separation too. That pick 6 was into triple coverage because the receivers didn't run it well enough for the area to get cleared. Still not sure why he still decided to throw that one though. To MBT's credit, that mistake didn't seem to phase him much but it sure hurt on the scoreboard.

No of TD passes need to be taken with a grain of salt these days. If the Argos pass the ball down to the 1 yard line, and Franklin scores on a 1 yard plunge, as was the case Saturday, and 11 times total this year, why is the QB being punished for lack of a TD pass?

[Rich]

IMO MBT has surpassed JF's July 7 performance more than once, including on Saturday when he brought us back from a deficit in the fourth quarter and put us in position to win the game at the end.

So you don't believe QBs should be individually credited for a team win, but you do believe they should be individually credited for putting the team in position to win. My layman's brain is having trouble grasping the distinction between the two.

[paulwoods13]

So you don't believe QBs should be individually credited for a team win, but you do believe they should be individually credited for putting the team in position to win. My layman's brain is having trouble grasping the distinction between the two.

The QB has primary responsibility for moving the ball and helping his team score, but that doesn't necessarily make him the primary reason for a win or loss. Football is a team sport, IMO the ultimate team sport. The QB can pass for 500 yards and six TDs, yet his team can still lose if the defence or special teams don't also do their jobs. Should he be held responsible for the latter? Or he can throw six picks and accumulate 100 yards, yet team can still win if the defence or special teams play well. Should he be given credit for the latter? There were a lot of games back in the mid-2000s when the Argos won almost solely because of their defence, for example. Yet Michael Bishop was the "winning QB."

[OV Argo]

The QB rating/efficiency system in use now is IMO one of the biggest joke stats i have ever seen in sports - i give it zero notice; wayyyyyyyyy too skewed to TD/INT ratio, and does not take into account all sorts of other factors for QB play.

I would suggest a points system based on : yards passed for = points, plus add the QBs rushing yards (but do not subtract yards lost on sacks) with a bonus 10 points for a rushing TD; then give a bonus 50 points for each TD pass, and subtract 50 points for each INT thrown. Then take the QBs completion percentage and multiply it by 100. Add up all those points. Simple system and it will still favor a QB who gets to throw the most (more chances to produce points; but a QB with the most passing yardage could still easily be passed in points by the QB with a much better completion %, plus better TD/INT ratio, and who runs for decent yardage). I do not believe there is a fare & proper way to factor in a QB "win" in a team game in such a system ? - maybe some bonus points for a team win where the margin of victory is all off offensive scoring points (i.e. - take defensive TDs, special teams TDs and FGs longer than 50 yards off the board/ out of the equation ?).

[Rich]

The QB has primary responsibility for moving the ball and helping his team score, but that doesn't necessarily make him the primary reason for a win or loss. Football is a team sport, IMO the ultimate team sport. The QB can pass for 500 yards and six TDs, yet his team can still lose if the defence or special teams don't also do their jobs. Should he be held responsible for the latter? Or he can throw six picks and accumulate 100 yards, yet team can still win if the defence or special teams play well. Should he be given credit for the latter? There were a lot of games back in the mid-2000s when the Argos won almost solely because of their defence, for example. Yet Michael Bishop was the "winning QB."

So I guess we can say that while MBT put the team in position to win, neither he nor anyone else did enough to actually get the job done.

[paulwoods13]

So I guess we can say that while MBT put the team in position to win, neither he nor anyone else did enough to actually get the job done.

Yes, we can indeed say that. He could have driven them closer (and in fact he is partly to blame for failing to call a timeout when he couldn't hear the play call in his helmet. Sixteen seconds were wasted -- coaches also bear some responsibility for that).

[Rich]

Yes, we can indeed say that. He could have driven them closer (and in fact he is partly to blame for failing to call a timeout when he couldn't hear the play call in his helmet. Sixteen seconds were wasted -- coaches also bear some responsibility for that).

And we could point out similarly crucial examples in two of the previous three losses where we needed a good play from MBT and didn't get it. So if you can't do enough to get the job done, then "putting the team in position to win" becomes a pretty hollow endorsement.

[AngeloV]

And we could point out similarly crucial examples in two of the previous three losses where we needed a good play from MBT and didn't get it. So if you can't do enough to get the job done, then "putting the team in position to win" becomes a pretty hollow endorsement.

Rich, is your whole stance coming from the fact that Franklin played his college ball in the SEC? I know how big a college fan you are through our discussions. I ask because I just can't understand how anyone can't agree that MBT has played better in his games than Franklin did in his.

[Rich]

Rich, is your whole stance coming from the fact that Franklin played his college ball in the SEC? I know how big a college fan you are through our discussions. I ask because I just can't understand how anyone can't agree that MBT has played better in his games than Franklin did in his.

And with all due respect Angelo, I'm having trouble understanding your stance on this. You argue so stridently about how great MBT has been, and yet you think that Franklin should get another chance to start because you "believe in him". Are you saying that, despite how badly MBT has outplayed him, you still believe Franklin is a better QB?

And for the record, i have never argued that Franklin has played better than MBT so far, I just don't believe that MBT has been "clearly" or "vastly" better than him. Honestly I think neither one of them has so far delivered the consistently good QBing this team needs going forward. I will concede that MBT may have played marginally better overall, but that's still not good enough, especially when the team keeps losing. I still think Franklin is a better QB with a bigger upside and should be starting, and maybe that's a point on which we can agree.

[paulwoods13]

And we could point out similarly crucial examples in two of the previous three losses where we needed a good play from MBT and didn't get it. So if you can't do enough to get the job done, then "putting the team in position to win" becomes a pretty hollow endorsement.

And I could similarly point to examples in Franklin's starts where we needed a good play from him and didn't get it. We are 3-and-9 because of the play of the entire team. Some guys have played better than others, and some worse, but overall we have been lacking. Some guys have put us in position to win (e.g. Washington last week), others have not. IMO MBT has played better than his predecessor did (something you clearly disagree with, as you are entitled to do), but both guys have contributed to the losing record along with the other 50-60 players who have dressed since week 3. It seems you keep looking for ways to prove that I should favour Franklin over MBT. I'm not doing that at this point (despite your best efforts), but my opinion could change at some point. I'd like to think yours could as well, but I'm starting to wonder.

[Rich]

And I could similarly point to examples in Franklin's starts where we needed a good play from him and didn't get it. We are 3-and-9 because of the play of the entire team. Some guys have played better than others, and some worse, but overall we have been lacking. Some guys have put us in position to win (e.g. Washington last week), others have not. IMO MBT has played better than his predecessor did (something you clearly disagree with, as you are entitled to do), but both guys have contributed to the losing record along with the other 50-60 players who have dressed since week 3. It seems you keep looking for ways to prove that I should favour Franklin over MBT. I'm not doing that at this point (despite your best efforts), but my opinion could change at some point. I'd like to think yours could as well, but I'm starting to wonder.

hey Paul I'm not interested in changing your opinion, I'm just trying to call 'em as I see 'em, and hoping to have a meaningful and civilized discussion about this stupid football team that I love. :-)

[AngeloV]

And with all due respect Angelo, I'm having trouble understanding your stance on this. You argue so stridently about how great MBT has been, and yet you think that Franklin should get another chance to start because you "believe in him". Are you saying that, despite how badly MBT has outplayed him, you still believe Franklin is a better QB?

And for the record, i have never argued that Franklin has played better than MBT so far, I just don't believe that MBT has been "clearly" or "vastly" better than him. Honestly I think neither one of them has so far delivered the consistently good QBing this team needs going forward. I will concede that MBT may have played marginally better overall, but that's still not good enough, especially when the team keeps losing. I still think Franklin is a better QB with a bigger upside and should be starting, and maybe that's a point on which we can agree.

I've explained my stance. I think JF is the QB of the future and would have no issue seeing him go back in, and in fact would like to see it, but as I have said many times, MBT has played much better in his starts than JF did, so I understand why he is starting at this point. Just look at the points the Argos have scored with each QB at the helm. The Argos worst point production under MBT is higher than their best point production in games not under MBT. Pretty clear to me.