Argo Fan No-Shows?

[Godfather]

Hi all, do the argos have a lot of fan no-shows at games? For last week's ticats game the announced attendance was 14,100 but a Toronto Sun article stated that 18,000 tickets were sold. A look on ticketmaster did show only about 1000 tickets left. I tried to get seats in section 119 at the box office and they were sold out at game time and only one seat was available in sec 120. But I did notice empty seats in these sections when I was at the game.

I have heard that argos only report tickets scanned. So if this is true maybe the argos poor fan support is not as bad as it seems. I recall reading somewhere that argos revenue has gone up at BMO (sorry no source).

Do you guys have any insights?

[paulwoods13]

Last week's crowd looked pretty sparse, especially for a Ticats game. A lot of regulars in my section (which is completely seasons tix, as far as I know) were not there. So 14k in the building and 18k tix sold both sounded plausible to me.

[AngeloV]

Hi all, do the argos have a lot of fan no-shows at games? For last week's ticats game the announced attendance was 14,100 but a Toronto Sun article stated that 18,000 tickets were sold. A look on ticketmaster did show only about 1000 tickets left. I tried to get seats in section 119 at the box office and they were sold out at game time and only one seat was available in sec 120. But I did notice empty seats in these sections when I was at the game.

I have heard that argos only report tickets scanned. So if this is true maybe the argos poor fan support is not as bad as it seems. I recall reading somewhere that argos revenue has gone up at BMO (sorry no source).

Do you guys have any insights?

I'm guessing the 18k was a bad number. Too many rows of empty seats to suggest there were 4,000 no shows IMO.

[Argofan_1000]

I'm guessing the 18k was a bad number. Too many rows of empty seats to suggest there were 4,000 no shows IMO.


Argo office has told me a few times 4 or 5 thousand no shows can happen. I trust the 18K number is probably true. Today Argo ticket office said they expect 14 for the game on Sat.

[Mightygoose]

Yes the Argos do report tickets scanned so it's no surprise that there were lost of no shows.

I believe TFC does the same thing. Manning says they have about 24,500 STHs but last game drew about 22K and change.

Edit: Anyone care to share the link from the Sun mentioning the 18K sold? Haven't found anything yet.

[Shatto]

I don't doubt the veracity of the reported discrepancy between the 18,000 sold tickets to the 14,00 that turned up. Earlier in the season I enquired about buying an extra ticket and was informed our whole area was sold out. However, at the game there were probable 15-20 empty seats immediately around us. My guess is that in our supposedly sold out section (123), about one third of the seats were empty.

Do we know how many season corporate seat have been sold? Could this partially explain the difference in the two numbers?

If the team really has been selling a substantial number of tickets beyond the stated attendance, then perhaps the team has been close to meeting its break even number.

[ArgoRavi]

Yes the Argos do report tickets scanned so it's no surprise that there were lost of no shows.

I believe TFC does the same thing. Manning says they have about 24,500 STHs but last game drew about 22K and change.

Edit: Anyone care to share the link from the Sun mentioning the 18K sold? Haven't found anything yet.

Here is the link: https://torontosun.com/sports/football/cfl/toronto-argonauts/ticats-roll-in-the-rain-to-complete-season-sweep-of-argos-with-a-second-half-surge

[Mightygoose]

Here is the link: https://torontosun.com/sports/football/cfl/toronto-argonauts/ticats-roll-in-the-rain-to-complete-season-sweep-of-argos-with-a-second-half-surge

Thank you for the link.

18K is near the capacity based on the current configuration

[shayman]

I spent a while counting and estimating at the game today. Looked like about 40% capacity to me. Perhaps 8,000. Certainly lots more empty seats than Ticketmaster was telling me last night.

[paulwoods13]

I spent a while counting and estimating at the game today. Looked like about 40% capacity to me. Perhaps 8,000. Certainly lots more empty seats than Ticketmaster was telling me last night.

I thought around 10k, but it's impossible to get a full read from my seats as I can't see any of the west upper deck. Many of the regulars in my section (which is mostly STHs) were again absent, not surprising given there is nothing to play for except dreaming about the future.

[Will]

I spent a while counting and estimating at the game today. Looked like about 40% capacity to me. Perhaps 8,000. Certainly lots more empty seats than Ticketmaster was telling me last night.

My '5 second estimate' guessed below 10,000.

[shayman]

I thought around 10k, but it's impossible to get a full read from my seats as I can't see any of the west upper deck. .
I too was on the west side and took a walk to the south end zone in Q3 to get a look. Upper west was also about 40% full. More full behind the Argo bench, less full at the other end.

Here's the west and east sides part way through Q3 -

929930

[Shatto]

I suspect many of the season ticket didn't bother to turn up for the game. I went to a grandson's hockey game rather than a nothing Argo game. Wont change my decision to buy tickets next year---after all these years and having experienced bad seasons before--once an Argo fan, always an Argos fan

[GregR]

One effect of lower ticket prices is that it is not as painful to "no show" I guess. I always make sure I give my tickets to someone if I am not going. I hate to see them go unused, and it is also good to promote the game by giving them away. Also once eliminated from the playoffs, the no shows will increase in all sports.

[Neely2005]

I think that the scalpers have a lot of season tickets so if they don't sell them that's a no show. I gave away 2 of my tickets for the Hamilton game and then those people didn't show. I gave my tickets for yesterdays game away to a charity, hopefully they were used!

[jerrym]

I suspect many of the season ticket didn't bother to turn up for the game. I went to a grandson's hockey game rather than a nothing Argo game. Wont change my decision to buy tickets next year---after all these years and having experienced bad seasons before--once an Argo fan, always an Argos fan

There is also a greater temptation to watch the game on TV rather than make the effort and cost of going to the stadium when teams, like the Argos, are playing "nothing" games.

[ArgoFan1]

I don't get all this talk of a 'nothing' game. As a fan you should want to be at every game. They only play NINE per calendar year !!! I love watching football live and never miss and cannot imagine staying away because the team is out of the playoffs. The game was still fun to be at and exciting down to the wire. It is real life happening, so any play can turn out to be the greatest ever in history. Always good to be there if that happens. I could see skipping a Leaf game since they play 41 at home, but there are so few games, and now we have to wait until June for the next one. I am going to miss it so much that I am headed to Montreal next weekend to see them play one more time.

[AngeloV]

I don't get all this talk of a 'nothing' game. As a fan you should want to be at every game. They only play NINE per calendar year !!! I love watching football live and never miss and cannot imagine staying away because the team is out of the playoffs. The game was still fun to be at and exciting down to the wire. It is real life happening, so any play can turn out to be the greatest ever in history. Always good to be there if that happens. I could see skipping a Leaf game since they play 41 at home, but there are so few games, and now we have to wait until June for the next one. I am going to miss it so much that I am headed to Montreal next weekend to see them play one more time.

I'm with you. No matter the situation, I love the entertainment value of being live at the game. I go to every home game, and watch every away game on TV regardless of record. Maybe it's just me, I don't know, but I've read so much talk about what a crappy game it was yesterday. I thought it was very entertaining.

[Shatto]

It is all relative. If one has something else on the calendar and it is also of considerable interest, then it is easier to forgo an Argo "nothing" game to attend the other event. Not right or wrong, just an individual decision.

I caught the second half of the Argo game on TV. Exciting finish but it did look like a battle of the incompetents. However, as others have mentioned, there does appear to be some talent on the team and with another year's experience and some needed changes, there is every possibility the team could be competitive next year.

[ArgoFan1]

As I keep saying- it is only nine days out of the year. When the schedule comes out, absolutely nothing else can be scheduled on those days. I have people schedule a golf tournament so as not to be on the same day as an Argo game. Once I know the schedule, it all falls into place. Kills me when guys I know tell me they never know when the games are. Pretty easy to know something like that these days, if you had just the slightest bit of interest.

[Neely2005]

It is all relative. If one has something else on the calendar and it is also of considerable interest, then it is easier to forgo an Argo "nothing" game to attend the other event. Not right or wrong, just an individual decision.

I caught the second half of the Argo game on TV. Exciting finish but it did look like a battle of the incompetents. However, as others have mentioned, there does appear to be some talent on the team and with another year's experience and some needed changes, there is every possibility the team could be competitive next year.

Exactly. Our son had away hockey games on the same day as the last 2 Argonauts home games. It's certainly easier to decide if he should miss his game when the Argonauts game is meaningless in the standings.

[shayman]

The team says Saturday's attendance was 14,080.
https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/1054452916273082368

[Mightygoose]

I wonder if that is a sold and distributed figure.

If that's the official figure then the average this season is 14,211, up from 13,914 last year about 2.1%

https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-argonauts/attendance/2017/

An increase despite no 4 free vouchers per ST, 2 or 19.97 Doug Flutie promo or 15.00 upper east end tickets which we're sold for all games in the second half of the season last year.

It's progress, all I really wanted to see this year.

[Treblecharger1]

Agreed, It is a shame that they were terrible on the field. But I think if prices are the same renewals should be good. The fan oriented tailgates are going to increase my total seasons from 4 to 6 and maybe as high as 10.

A full off season to push seasons and I think it is feasible for us to increase season tickets to around the 9k mark

[doubleblue]

The team says Saturday's attendance was 14,080.
https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/1054452916273082368

That's about 1,000 - 1,500 more than I was guessing. But I did notice the East side seem to fill up more after the start. Just need to get another 4 - 5,000 die hards to fill it up.

[gilthethrill]

I have to wonder, does the absence of GO Train service on Saturdays have an effect on attendance?

[shayman]

We all ought to be a little bit concerned that 14,080 tickets were sold or distributed or whatever, but only about 8,000 people actually went to the game.

[Mightygoose]

I wouldn't be too concerned about a high number of no shows for a meaningless games.

Even the Friday night last week vs. Hamilton had about 4K no shows which is not uncommon for any team out of it.

If the ST base is 6K then that means 8K extra sold for a dog match up.

[ArgoZ]

I have to wonder, does the absence of GO Train service on Saturdays have an effect on attendance?

I know we make excuses every year, but it seemed like the Argos really couldn't catch a break this season. For a sales team that needs every fan possible, they had to endure a poor record, terrible go service, picketers. Even so, attendance was up, so baby steps I guess.

[Joe Barnes]

I know we make excuses every year, but it seemed like the Argos really couldn't catch a break this season. For a sales team that needs every fan possible, they had to endure a poor record, terrible go service, picketers. Even so, attendance was up, so baby steps I guess.

Agreed. Considering all those factors, especially the poor on-field results, it is amazing that attendance is up, even if only a bit. Baby steps are still steps in the right direction!

[ArgoRavi]

MLSE was hoping for attendance to be up about 1500 per game IIRC but they almost certainly didn't expect this team to have such a poor season. For attendance to be up at all has to be considered a victory.

[ArgoRavi]

I'm with you. No matter the situation, I love the entertainment value of being live at the game. I go to every home game, and watch every away game on TV regardless of record. Maybe it's just me, I don't know, but I've read so much talk about what a crappy game it was yesterday. I thought it was very entertaining.

Many had their minds made up before this game that it would be a "bad" game. It really wasn't. There were only four turnovers and not an inordinate number of penalties either. Both offences put up decent numbers and both defences made plays too. It was actually a reasonably well-played game.

[Ron]

Much better to have 14K paid and 8K show up then the years when only 8K paid and 20K showed up.

[paulwoods13]

Much better to have 14K paid and 8K show up then the years when only 8K paid and 20K showed up.

Good perspective.

[jerrym]

Much better to have 14K paid and 8K show up then the years when only 8K paid and 20K showed up.

While I am not opposed to having a single game in a season where lots of free tickets are given away to possibly attract new fans, ongoing ticket giveaways will never be the solution to the attendance problem.

[shayman]

Much better to have 14K paid and 8K show up then the years when only 8K paid and 20K showed up.

But - 8K showing up looks terrible on TV and sends the message that this event is not very interesting, when even people who paid for tickets couldn't be bothered to come.

[Shatto]

MLSE has to recognize there is strong competition for peoples' entertainment dollar (and attention). Knowing that the team was out of the playoffs and there would be a possibility that folks, for whatever reason, might decide not to attend, perhaps the organization might have had some special promotion to entice potential fans---kids get in free/STH's given extra tickets to take family members/free tickets to minor football organizations/special draw for those attending for free ST's for next season---and publicize the heck out of the special promotions.

As Shayman has stated, having only 8,000 in attendance looks really poor and sends the wrong message to the public.

[HankSr]

But - 8K showing up looks terrible on TV and sends the message that this event is not very interesting, when even people who paid for tickets couldn't be bothered to come.

It has been odd in section 107 the last few games. People who seemed like die hard attendees all year have suddenly disappeared. And the people next to me have gone AWOL as well. A lot of the other seats seems to always have someone different so can't really comment on them. Also noticing more and more people who leave before half time which I always find odd.

[Neely2005]

But - 8K showing up looks terrible on TV and sends the message that this event is not very interesting, when even people who paid for tickets couldn't be bothered to come.

Since the move to BMO Field the Argonauts have only announced tickets scanned for the attendance number. Where are you getting the 8000 figure from?

[AngeloV]

Since the move to BMO Field the Argonauts have only announced tickets scanned for the attendance number. Where are you getting the 8000 figure from?

That may be the general thought, but I don't think so. There is no way that 14k were at the game Saturday.

[Will]

That may be the general thought, but I don't think so. There is no way that 14k were at the game Saturday.

I agree with Angelo, it simply did not pass the eye test.

[shayman]

Where are you getting the 8000 figure from?

Just an educated estimate. It looked to me like each side was about 40% full, and 8000 is more or less 40% of capacity.

(I took a picture of each side during the 3rd quarter, posted earlier in this thread. Take a look, tell me what you think.)

[Slack10]

Thanks! I was looking for the attendance and could not find it!

[Godfather]

So if the argos average 14K in tickets scanned but there are and additional 2-3K no show ticket sales (let's say) then the argos fan support could be stronger than what people think and they are probably not losing as much money as many would have thought. Would you guys agree with this?

[doubleblue]

That 8,000 guesstimate doesn't sound right to me. I was thinking at least 12,000. People stand around the end and there is always people coming and going out in the concourse area. Can't just go by one picture. The only thing we know for sure, it wasn't a 18,000 sell out.

[Ron]

But - 8K showing up looks terrible on TV and sends the message that this event is not very interesting, when even people who paid for tickets couldn't be bothered to come.

That's an old wives tale IMO. Past ownership wanted it to look good on TV and what we got was owners bailing after a few years of ticket buying failures

[doubleblue]

Hi all, do the argos have a lot of fan no-shows at games? For last week's ticats game the announced attendance was 14,100 but a Toronto Sun article stated that 18,000 tickets were sold. A look on ticketmaster did show only about 1000 tickets left. I tried to get seats in section 119 at the box office and they were sold out at game time and only one seat was available in sec 120. But I did notice empty seats in these sections when I was at the game.

I have heard that argos only report tickets scanned. So if this is true maybe the argos poor fan support is not as bad as it seems. I recall reading somewhere that argos revenue has gone up at BMO (sorry no source).

Do you guys have any insights?

Maybe Bob Young bought 4,000 tickets to help the Argos out. ;)

[jerrym]

Thanks! I was looking for the attendance and could not find it!

Welcome on board the leaky ship Argo. Good to see someone joining when the ship is taking on water.

[Shatto]

All this confusion could be avoided if management just published both scanned tickets (bums in seats) and actual number of tickets sold.

[doubleblue]

All this confusion could be avoided if management just published both scanned tickets (bums in seats) and actual number of tickets sold.

I like that, but don't know if they would really want to do it. Might be a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't situation.

[AngeloV]

All this confusion could be avoided if management just published both scanned tickets (bums in seats) and actual number of tickets sold.

Do any teams actually do that? At the end of the day, is it really important? That's the business side of things. Personally, I don't care about that stuff. Just something else for people to whine about I guess.

[ArgoRavi]

Do any teams actually do that? At the end of the day, is it really important? That's the business side of things. Personally, I don't care about that stuff. Just something else for people to whine about I guess.

For the record, Manning told TSN Radio the other day that paid attendance was up something like 1850 per game and he sounded thrilled about that. There was a smaller increase in bums in seats but an increase nonetheless.

[ArgoZ]

Do any teams actually do that? At the end of the day, is it really important? That's the business side of things. Personally, I don't care about that stuff. Just something else for people to whine about I guess.

I agree that it's getting tiresome. I was in a little Twitter war the other day about Argonauts attendance. The fellow harped on how the team isn't viable and should fold, only due to attendance. I kept asking why he cares so much? I told him the team was stable, regardless, and let MLSE worry about it. Somehow, our low crowds still make for a good atmosphere and a fun day at BMO. Let us have our fun, quit complaining people and hopefully MLSE can get 20k there soon enough and everything will be fine.

[smokeslet'sgo]

I agree that it's getting tiresome. I was in a little Twitter war the other day about Argonauts attendance. The fellow harped on how the team isn't viable and should fold, only due to attendance. I kept asking why he cares so much? I told him the team was stable, regardless, and let MLSE worry about it. Somehow, our low crowds still make for a good atmosphere and a fun day at BMO. Let us have our fun, quit complaining people and hopefully MLSE can get 20k there soon enough and everything will be fine.

MLSE will pay Kawhi Leonard 4 times more money than the entire Argos' roster in a season, assuming the Argos are at the cap. Any money MLSE loses on the Argos is like one of us dropping a nickel under the car seat after going through the Tim's drive thru.

Ironically enough, the two teams I have the most fun seeing in the city are the Argos and Toronto Rock, and both play to around half capacity

[Saugonaut]

I had some thoughts about going / not going to the games after the playoffs got taken off the table. I weighed the money option, as in, i paid for these tickets might as well go. But that arguement didn't sway me. What did was, at the end of the day, I get to go watch a football game! Even though the team struggled this year, there were still awesome plays, and fun to be had. Kiss cams, blooper reals, those little 2 minute player bios are all way better than watching crappy commercials. It's a way better experience being there with other fans and cheering and stomping your feet. I'd look mental doing that at home, and my wife would kill me!

That being said, the Go transit situation this season sucked balls!

#isitJuneyet

[AngeloV]

I had some thoughts about going / not going to the games after the playoffs got taken off the table. I weighed the money option, as in, i paid for these tickets might as well go. But that arguement didn't sway me. What did was, at the end of the day, I get to go watch a football game! Even though the team struggled this year, there were still awesome plays, and fun to be had. Kiss cams, blooper reals, those little 2 minute player bios are all way better than watching crappy commercials. It's a way better experience being there with other fans and cheering and stomping your feet. I'd look mental doing that at home, and my wife would kill me!

That being said, the Go transit situation this season sucked balls!

#isitJuneyet

No matter the situation standings wise, I always have a great time at games. For the most part, they were only out of 1 home game this year, and that was the Calgary game. Every other game was within reach in the final quarter (although I have no idea how that was the case against the Bombers).

[AngeloV]

I agree that it's getting tiresome. I was in a little Twitter war the other day about Argonauts attendance. The fellow harped on how the team isn't viable and should fold, only due to attendance. I kept asking why he cares so much? I told him the team was stable, regardless, and let MLSE worry about it. Somehow, our low crowds still make for a good atmosphere and a fun day at BMO. Let us have our fun, quit complaining people and hopefully MLSE can get 20k there soon enough and everything will be fine.

My feelings exactly. The fact is, the league will not let the Argos die, ever.

[Will]

I agree that it's getting tiresome. I was in a little Twitter war the other day about Argonauts attendance. The fellow harped on how the team isn't viable and should fold, only due to attendance. I kept asking why he cares so much? I told him the team was stable, regardless, and let MLSE worry about it. Somehow, our low crowds still make for a good atmosphere and a fun day at BMO. Let us have our fun, quit complaining people and hopefully MLSE can get 20k there soon enough and everything will be fine.

He was pushing the Lamport idea wasn't he? I cannot say for sure, but that's something a lot of the TFC trolls love saying.

[R.J]

That being said, the Go transit situation this season sucked balls!
You can say that again.

[Will]

You can say that again.

That being said, the Go transit situation this season sucked balls!

[R.J]

That being said, the Go transit situation this season sucked balls!
It really did, it took almost double the amount of time I was at the game just to get to and from the game. I'm never doing that again.

[Harpastum]

Ok - I wasn't going to comment - but maybe it's neccasary.
I'm a long time season seat holder - mostly since 92 - but know I missed a couple years along the way.
Anyway - I went to 4 games this year... Would have been more if the team had performed better.
Gave away 2 games - & yes those tickets were used.
To be honest -I can't see myself renewing for next season though.
Anyone won't make a case for why I should?

[ArgoZ]

Ok - I wasn't going to comment - but maybe it's neccasary.
I'm a long time season seat holder - mostly since 92 - but know I missed a couple years along the way.
Anyway - I went to 4 games this year... Would have been more if the team had performed better.
Gave away 2 games - & yes those tickets were used.
To be honest -I can't see myself renewing for next season though.
Anyone won't make a case for why I should?

Because they will probably bounce back and maybe even win the Cup next year. You know that's usually the case with this team and you've been through much worse since 92. A new coach and possible new QB might happen too. Although the season was a loss, aside from the Calgary game, I enjoyed all our live football events. BMO is a great place to watch a game. A relative of mine enjoyed his time so much, we are likely going up to 3 season tix next year. As I watch the final four teams today, I realize the Argos can hang with any of them with only a few changes.

[Topshelf]

We stress too much over the crowd.
Neither western playoff games was sold out and those are cfl hotbeds. There are many factors for the gameday crowd.
There is no easy fix to the crowd. We have to find a way to just move on.

[AngeloV]

We stress too much over the crowd.
Neither western playoff games was sold out and those are cfl hotbeds. There are many factors for the gameday crowd.
There is no easy fix to the crowd. We have to find a way to just move on.

Calgary hasn't sold out games in years, no matter what time of year. Division semi's have always been a hard sell too. Don't know why. Canadian fans are very fickle. Nice to see a full house in Ottawa yesterday. Maybe that will put to rest the (IMO) stupid thought that fans won't go to games if it's cold.

[RB957]

Calgary hasn't sold out games in years, no matter what time of year. Division semi's have always been a hard sell too. Don't know why. Canadian fans are very fickle. Nice to see a full house in Ottawa yesterday. Maybe that will put to rest the (IMO) stupid thought that fans won't go to games if it's cold.

Ottawa has been a model franchise since their return to the league. The most amazing thing when they scan the crowd during televised games is the fact that there are so many young people there... and they are having a great time. Somehow, we need to start to replicate that here in Toronto... and with Liberty Village and City Place so close to the stadium and packed with young people, I believe the team should make this a priority. With MLSE now owning the team, and Mitch Marner having been to a game and spoken highly of how much he enjoyed it, that could be a key marketing strategy.

[AngeloV]

Ottawa has been a model franchise since their return to the league. The most amazing thing when they scan the crowd during televised games is the fact that there are so many young people there... and they are having a great time. Somehow, we need to start to replicate that here in Toronto... and with Liberty Village and City Place so close to the stadium and packed with young people, I believe the team should make this a priority. With MLSE now owning the team, and Mitch Marner having been to a game and spoken highly of how much he enjoyed it, that could be a key marketing strategy.

Couldn't agree more.

[Topshelf]

I lived in Liberty for 2 years.
Super convenient for games. But also super convenient for everything else that's going on in town.
The Argos first tried that approach right after the move to BMO. They had a liberty village offer code, they had kate bereiness from tsn giving away free tix at the Local bar before each game.
It just didnt catch on.
It's worth trying again. But itll be a challenge.

I think a big help would be if the city and MLSE got together and came up with some transit strategy for gameday.
Getting to the stadium is only going to get worse with all the new condos going up in liberty. 5 of them alone at king and strachan.
Also the new shelter took away at least 1/4 of the lamport lot.
If you go to buffalo, while the crowd is obviously much larger, they do have traffic cops out.

[Will]

Ottawa has been a model franchise since their return to the league. The most amazing thing when they scan the crowd during televised games is the fact that there are so many young people there... and they are having a great time. Somehow, we need to start to replicate that here in Toronto... and with Liberty Village and City Place so close to the stadium and packed with young people, I believe the team should make this a priority. With MLSE now owning the team, and Mitch Marner having been to a game and spoken highly of how much he enjoyed it, that could be a key marketing strategy.

They did nothing with Marner this year as far as I know.

[RB957]

They did nothing with Marner this year as far as I know.

I know. But when Marner went, he said it was because he was invited to go by some of his buddies. I remember the tweet he put out where he really did a shout out to the quality of the game and players. My point was that given this, I think they could leverage that into some great messaging and marketing. One of the biggest issues that the CFL faces IMO is that certain people don't give the league's athletes any serious respect. Having someone like Marner pulling for them, could be a game changer.

[ArgoRavi]

Calgary hasn't sold out games in years, no matter what time of year. Division semi's have always been a hard sell too. Don't know why. Canadian fans are very fickle. Nice to see a full house in Ottawa yesterday. Maybe that will put to rest the (IMO) stupid thought that fans won't go to games if it's cold.

I would argue that the division semi-finals this year did exceptionally well as it was close to capacity in both Hamilton and Saskatchewan. You are correct, AV, that those games tend to be difficult sells and have been for decades.

BTW, I just checked cfldb and playoff attendance was at almost 95% capacity league-wide this year. Post-season attendance was up over 660 per game compared to last season.

[AngeloV]

I would argue that the division semi-finals this year did exceptionally well as it was close to capacity in both Hamilton and Saskatchewan. You are correct, AV, that those games tend to be difficult sells and have been for decades.

BTW, I just checked cfldb and playoff attendance was at almost 95% capacity league-wide this year. Post-season attendance was up over 660 per game compared to last season.

But..but..but it's too cold to play football in November.

[gilthethrill]

It really did, it took almost double the amount of time I was at the game just to get to and from the game. I'm never doing that again.

Oh the GO Train disruption on Saturdays really stunk didn't it? I drove to BMO to see Montreal play and parked on the 401 near Milton in a construction zone for 90 minutes....never doing that again.

[Argo57]

Oh the GO Train disruption on Saturdays really stunk didn't it? I drove to BMO to see Montreal play and parked on the 401 near Milton in a construction zone for 90 minutes....never doing that again.

Shout out to you👍
I know how far you travel to attend an Argo game, good on you!

[Neely2005]

I would argue that the division semi-finals this year did exceptionally well as it was close to capacity in both Hamilton and Saskatchewan. You are correct, AV, that those games tend to be difficult sells and have been for decades.

BTW, I just checked cfldb and playoff attendance was at almost 95% capacity league-wide this year. Post-season attendance was up over 660 per game compared to last season.

That's great but also a little misleading as Ottawa and Hamilton are two of the smallest stadiums in the league.

[Neely2005]

But..but..but it's too cold to play football in November.

It's too cold for some people to want to attend games outside in October and November. That's why the Eskimos have been trying for years to have the season start and end earlier.

https://globalnews.ca/news/1679244/should-the-cfl-season-start-earlier-to-avoid-cold/

Poll Results:

Yes, it would help boost attendance during playoffs 83.33%


No, freezing at games is part of the experience. Canadians are tough! 11.66%


It doesn't matter to me either way 5.01%


https://globalnews.ca/news/3883817/should-cfl-season-be-moved-up-to-avoid-playing-in-bad-weather/

[AngeloV]

It's too cold for some people to want to attend games outside in October and November. That's why the Eskimos have been trying for years to have the season start and end earlier.

https://globalnews.ca/news/1679244/should-the-cfl-season-start-earlier-to-avoid-cold/

Poll Results:

Yes, it would help boost attendance during playoffs 83.33%


No, freezing at games is part of the experience. Canadians are tough! 11.66%


It doesn't matter to me either way 5.01%


https://globalnews.ca/news/3883817/should-cfl-season-be-moved-up-to-avoid-playing-in-bad-weather/

What a poll says and what is reality often give you completely different results. I'm sure Edmonton would really love going head to head with the Oilers should they every go deep into the NHL playoffs. And I'm sure the league as a whole would really benefit from the lack of national media coverage kicking off the season throughout the NHL playoffs.

I am willing to bet, the league will never start their season before June 10. Which I would be perfectly fine with a Grey Cup on the first Sunday in November. A 10th team would allow an 18 game schedule with 1 bye week, to finish the first Sunday in November if June 10 was the start date. My major disagreement comes with people that think the league should start mid May. That would be 3 0r 4 full weeks games going head to head with the final 2 rounds of the NHL playoffs. Financial suicide from a sponsorship point of view.

[argolio]

You also can't have training camp in late April/early May, especially out west. Camp is short and in many ways is the most important time of the year. Teams need to see players on the field on a daily basis to evaluate personnel and implement their systems. You would also have no choice but to schedule the CFL draft before the NFL draft. That would be a nightmare for CFL teams, which is why they moved the draft in the first place.

[Neely2005]

What a poll says and what is reality often give you completely different results. I'm sure Edmonton would really love going head to head with the Oilers should they every go deep into the NHL playoffs. And I'm sure the league as a whole would really benefit from the lack of national media coverage kicking off the season throughout the NHL playoffs.

I am willing to bet, the league will never start their season before June 10. Which I would be perfectly fine with a Grey Cup on the first Sunday in November. A 10th team would allow an 18 game schedule with 1 bye week, to finish the first Sunday in November if June 10 was the start date. My major disagreement comes with people that think the league should start mid May. That would be 3 0r 4 full weeks games going head to head with the final 2 rounds of the NHL playoffs. Financial suicide from a sponsorship point of view.

The poll results mean something. Are you saying that you don't think a significant number of fans stay home due to cold weather? Why would the Eskimos be lobbying to start the season earlier if they didn't believe that it would make a significant difference in ticket sales?

The Oilers aren't going to make the playoffs let alone go deep. There are only 7 Canadian NHL teams. It's unlikely that we'll regularly see Canadian teams having long playoff runs.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

The poll results mean something. Are you saying that you don't think a significant number of fans stay home due to cold weather? Why would the Eskimos be lobbying to start the season earlier if they didn't believe that it would make a significant difference in ticket sales?

The Oilers aren't going to make the playoffs let alone go deep. There are only 7 Canadian NHL teams. It's unlikely that we'll regularly see Canadian teams having long playoff runs.
It's not the Eskimos that want to change the schedule.It's Len Rhodes.This is his personal pet project.His stewardship of the franchise has not gone well with the core audience.
Go to Eskfans.com http://www.esksfans.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?12-Edmonton-Eskimos .It's just a small sample size(like the poll refered to in your post) but it is very telling.

[AngeloV]

The poll results mean something. Are you saying that you don't think a significant number of fans stay home due to cold weather? Why would the Eskimos be lobbying to start the season earlier if they didn't believe that it would make a significant difference in ticket sales?

The Oilers aren't going to make the playoffs let alone go deep. There are only 7 Canadian NHL teams. It's unlikely that we'll regularly see Canadian teams having long playoff runs.

So you are looking at the Oilers at this point in the season and determining that they will NEVER go deep into the playoffs? Considering the have the best player in the world, that is quite an assumption on your part. What about the Flames? Leafs? Jets? You don't think a May start would have really hurt the Bombers this past season? And you have also failed to miss my main point of good luck getting advertisers on board during the NHL playoffs.

You've mentioned many times on here how your wife won't go to a game if it's cold. That is a very small sample size and obviously influencing your point of view. Fact is, the coldest day in which a game has ever been played at BMO (eastern final...and it was cold and windy), resulted in the biggest crowd ever to watch an Argos game there. That at least is some real evidence, unlike anything you have provided.

[Neely2005]

It's not the Eskimos that want to change the schedule.It's Len Rhodes.This is his personal pet project.His stewardship of the franchise has not gone well with the core audience.
Go to Eskfans.com http://www.esksfans.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?12-Edmonton-Eskimos .It's just a small sample size(like the poll refered to in your post) but it is very telling.

It's not just Rhodes. Ambrosie is onboard too as per the second Link that I posted.

[Neely2005]

So you are looking at the Oilers at this point in the season and determining that they will NEVER go deep into the playoffs? Considering the have the best player in the world, that is quite an assumption on your part. What about the Flames? Leafs? Jets? You don't think a May start would have really hurt the Bombers this past season? And you have also failed to miss my main point of good luck getting advertisers on board during the NHL playoffs.

You've mentioned many times on here how your wife won't go to a game if it's cold. That is a very small sample size and obviously influencing your point of view. Fact is, the coldest day in which a game has ever been played at BMO (eastern final...and it was cold and windy), resulted in the biggest crowd ever to watch an Argos game there. That at least is some real evidence, unlike anything you have provided.

Where did I say that the Oilers will NEVER go deep in the playoffs? TSN doesn't show NHL playoff games so I don't see a big difference to their advertisers.

I actually provided two Links that both offer facts, but I guess you didn't read them? I notice that you still haven't answered my question as to if you actually believe that the weather doesn't impact attendance.

[paulwoods13]

I notice that you still haven't answered my question as to if you actually believe that the weather doesn't impact attendance.

IMO the weather does have an impact on attendance -- but it isn't just in November. IMO the Argos (and other eastern teams) will face a tougher challenge selling tickets if more of their games are in late spring and summer, and fewer in the fall. People in this market tend to get away to cottages and do other things on weekends in July and August, and weeknight games provide their own set of challenges, sales-wise. That's something the league better take into account if it moves the season up by three or four weeks as Ambrosie was suggesting at one point.

(And yes, I know the Blue Jays drew big crowds in the summer for a few years recently. They were also both a contender and trendy at the time. I stand by my belief that selling Argo tickets in the warmest months of the year is a tough challenge.)

[AngeloV]

I notice that you still haven't answered my question as to if you actually believe that the weather doesn't impact attendance.

I guess you conveniently missed the part where I said the Argos biggest ever crowd at BMO came on the coldest day they played there. IMO, you are out to lunch on the subject. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Neely2005]

I guess you conveniently missed the part where I said the Argos biggest ever crowd at BMO came on the coldest day they played there. IMO, you are out to lunch on the subject. Let's just agree to disagree.

The first ever home playoff game (and a Final at that) should automatically draw a bigger crowd. Plus the Argonauts put a huge amount of marketing into that game. The last 2 Argonauts home games were poorly attended and one of those games was against Hamilton.

IMO you seem very reluctant to actually say that you don't think that weather affects attendance. You keep beating around the bush.

[Neely2005]

IMO the weather does have an impact on attendance -- but it isn't just in November. IMO the Argos (and other eastern teams) will face a tougher challenge selling tickets if more of their games are in late spring and summer, and fewer in the fall. People in this market tend to get away to cottages and do other things on weekends in July and August, and weeknight games provide their own set of challenges, sales-wise. That's something the league better take into account if it moves the season up by three or four weeks as Ambrosie was suggesting at one point.

(And yes, I know the Blue Jays drew big crowds in the summer for a few years recently. They were also both a contender and trendy at the time. I stand by my belief that selling Argo tickets in the warmest months of the year is a tough challenge.)

So why are TFC and the Jays able to overcome this cottage phenomenon? I've heard this cottage theory for years but has anyone actually spoken to Argonauts fans who are missing games to go to the cottage?

[Will]

The first ever home playoff game (and a Final at that) should automatically draw a bigger crowd. Plus the Argonauts put a huge amount of marketing into that game. The last 2 Argonauts home games were poorly attended and one of those games was against Hamilton.

IMO you seem very reluctant to actually say that you don't think that weather affects attendance. You keep beating around the bush.

4-14

[Will]

The Argos' problems in this market go well beyond when the season does or doesn't start.

BTW, I think it was mentioned in Ambrosie's State of the League that the season would be finishing a week earlier starting in 2020.

[AngeloV]

The Argos' problems in this market go well beyond when the season does or doesn't start.

BTW, I think it was mentioned in Ambrosie's State of the League that the season would be finishing a week earlier starting in 2020.

And as I said, I am fine with the league even ending 2 weeks earlier. When the 10th team comes in (hopefully) they can do 18 games in 19 weeks throughout the season. That would allow for a mid June start and an early November Grey Cup.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Info on moving up the season.
https://ottawasun.com/sports/football/cfl/ottawa-redblacks/embarrassingly-slick-grey-cup-field-may-give-cfl-push-to-bump-season-up
The situation with the field conditions could have been avoided.
The Denver Broncos use this system. The Packers, Patriots, and Ravens use similar systems.
https://www.rehau.com/us-en/mechanical-and-plumbing/turf-conditioning/sports-authority-field/1912974
(https://ottawasun.com/sports/football/cfl/ottawa-redblacks/embarrassingly-slick-grey-cup-field-may-give-cfl-push-to-bump-season-up)


(https://twitter.com/CFL_News/status/1067171872813580290)

[paulwoods13]

So why are TFC and the Jays able to overcome this cottage phenomenon?

Because they have bigger ticket-buying fanbases, for one thing.

I did refer to the Jays in my previous post on this. Yes, they have drawn big crowds in the summer, especially when they were contending and "cool." Baseball is also (unlike football) a summer sport. The football season used to begin in September, and football is generally considered a fall sport. Interest in Cdn football generally picks up from Labour Day on, especially in places (like Toronto) that have tons of other options for recreational time in the summer. As for TFC, they've been trendy for the past few years, and have successfully marketed themselves (as have the Jays, for the matter) to young people who are less likely to have a cottage to go to every weekend.

[paulwoods13]

The Argos' problems in this market go well beyond when the season does or doesn't start.


Yes, they do. Those problems have roots going back to 1983: 35 years. But IMO adding more summer games would make the challenge greater, not easier, in this market.

[Argo57]

The first ever home playoff game (and a Final at that) should automatically draw a bigger crowd. Plus the Argonauts put a huge amount of marketing into that game. The last 2 Argonauts home games were poorly attended and one of those games was against Hamilton.

IMO you seem very reluctant to actually say that you don't think that weather affects attendance. You keep beating around the bush.

Two meaningless home games played by a team who looked rather confused and disinterested for much of the season may have played into the attendance numbers late in the season.

[Topshelf]

MLSE could make it easier for fans to get to the game.
Work with ttc to run some express busses from dufferin or bathurst station,
Work with the cne to have cheaper on site parking
And most importantly have paid duty officers for traffic control.
Do it for both argos and tfc so both fans feel treated equally.
It would also improve relations with the liberty village community which is about to increase by thousands.
It simply isnt easy to get to the stadium,
If you go to a buffalo Bills game there are traffic cops everywhere.
Granted the crowd is much bigger.
But when you factor in toronto congestion I think we have way more cars around our stadium on gameday
Strachan is basically a 2 lane road.
Dufferin isnt the easiest to access from lakeshore
Lakeshore is the east west route that probably 90 percent of fans are driving on
The kicker is the traffic division has an office/garage right in liberty
It's only going to get worse as our crowds improve and more people move into the area

[gilthethrill]

Two meaningless home games played by a team who looked rather confused and disinterested for much of the season may have played into the attendance numbers late in the season.

Johnny Manziel was in town for the Argos last home game on a nice Saturday afternoon. I thought his presence would have brought more fans out. I thought the Argos played hard and fast that day.

[Neely2005]

Two meaningless home games played by a team who looked rather confused and disinterested for much of the season may have played into the attendance numbers late in the season.

Against Hamilton and Johnny Manziel. Plus the last game was Fan Appreciation Day.

[AngeloV]

Against Hamilton and Johnny Manziel. Plus the last game was Fan Appreciation Day.

But it was not cold for the last game against Montreal. The brutal season had more to do with the poor crowds to end the season, as it did in 2016 when the Argos had NO bad weather games.