Argonauts Marketing in Toronto and the GTA

[BayArgonaut]

One of the things all of us were excited about when MLSE bought the Argos was their branding power and marketing potential. to date, i cannot recall seeing any bit of visual merchandising or advertising for the Argos. has anyone seen any around? has anyone heard word of any plans to initiate a (series) of promotions?

ill admit im severely disappointed in how little mlse has done for the visibility of the Argos thus far. im still hopeful, but im a 31 year old who has friends as young as 22 who have no idea Toronto has a professional football team. its disastrous.

[paulwoods13]

941

Just throwing this out there for historical reference.

[BayArgonaut]

941

Just throwing this out there for historical reference.

'fraid i cant see the attachment

[AngeloV]

Argos responding to a tweet regarding jerseys:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/RealSports?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@RealSports</a> will have them when we launch our new jerseys in May.</p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/1116132965778694145?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 11, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't realize this was posted in another thread. Mods, feel free to remove if so desired.

[paulwoods13]

'fraid i cant see the attachment

I can't figure out how to post a picture that is not online. Sorry about that.

[Neely2005]

I can't figure out how to post a picture that is not online. Sorry about that.

You have to upload it to a file sharing site and then use the Link.

[BayArgonaut]

Argos responding to a tweet regarding jerseys:

<twitter-widget class="twitter-tweet twitter-tweet-rendered" id="twitter-widget-0" style="position: static; visibility: visible; display: block; transform: rotate(0deg); max-width: 100%; width: 500px; min-width: 220px; margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px;" data-tweet-id="1116132965778694145"></twitter-widget>
<script async="" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't realize this was posted in another thread. Mods, feel free to remove if so desired.


in any case, the Argos are doing a jersey launch and noone is talking it up. not one bit of promo or advertisement. its pathetic to be honest<iframe scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.2e9f365dae390394eb8d923cba8c5b11.htm l?origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.argofans.com&settingsEndpoint=https%3A%2F%2Fsyndication.twitter .com%2Fsettings" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;"></iframe><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: none;" title="Twitter analytics iframe"></iframe>

[OV Argo]

in any case, the Argos are doing a jersey launch and noone is talking it up. not one bit of promo or advertisement. its pathetic to be honest<iframe scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.2e9f365dae390394eb8d923cba8c5b11.htm l?origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.argofans.com&settingsEndpoint=https%3A%2F%2Fsyndication.twitter .com%2Fsettings" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;"></iframe><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: none;" title="Twitter analytics iframe"></iframe>


Some of us had a sneaking suspicion this supposed high powered sports machine that became Argo owners might not exactly know what they're doing in terms of Canadian football, the Argos and marketing of those 2 things.

But hey, it's still early ;o) - give them some time and the Argos will be a brand to reckon with again in GTA wannabeland; an NFL wannabe and some Volvo driving soccer snobs are just perfect to steer the good ship out of troubled waters.


I mentioned this idea before in another thread here on this subject. Could MLSE not be able to leverage an Argo booth set-up somewhere in or around the Leaf & Raptor home play-off games - just a small set-up with some photos and pamphlets of Argos history, some pocket scheds. to hand-out, and maybe a couple of Argo greats (eg. Pinball, Don Moen, Damon Allen. etc. whoever would volunteer) on hand to chat or pose for photos with sports fans. Can't see this idea costing much - too difficult or whacky to try ?

MUCH MORE EFFORT needed.

[paulwoods13]

in any case, the Argos are doing a jersey launch and noone is talking it up. not one bit of promo or advertisement. its pathetic to be honest

Or maybe the jerseys for all teams will be unveiled at the same time, in a launch coordinated by the league, not individual teams. New Era's contract is with the league. When every team got new jerseys in 2016, there was a single announcement featuring the entire league:

https://www.cfl.ca/2016/05/12/new-season-new-style-the-adidas-cfl-collection-has-landed/

The same thing happened in 2005 when stars from each team (including John Avery of the Argos) came together in the new duds. I fully expect the same thing to happen this time. (And yes, I'm aware that Montreal did an unveil earlier this off-season but that was a complete makeover, including logo. And the Alouettes appeared to be in dire need of extra help getting fan attention.)

[Mike Hogan]

Why would we talk up a jersey release when we have at least one other event before that? It's still weeks away. Why would we do that when the Raps and Leafs are both opening playoff series, taking up 99% of the sports pages? You'll find out about these things in due time. We're open to criticism or suggestions, but calling it pathetic is extreme, no?

I read somewhere that patience is a virtue.

If your definition of marketing is putting an ad in the paper or an ad on the radio, that's not the best bang for the buck anymore. The targeting of specific groups, school kids and young athletes, is something that needed to happen in this market and is long overdue. The connection to the Toronto Flag Football League is targeting young athletes who already have an interest in the sport, now we have to get them interested in our brand, team and league. The same goes for the pre-season game, it's an effort to get kids exposed to the Argos at an impressionable age...the same as many of us were. It's the same with our effort to get free footballs into the hands of kids. The more they play, the more inclined they'll be to become fans of the sport.

I think the people on the social media side have done a great job of keeping fans informed and entertained over the off season. I feel our Argonauts.ca content has kept fans informed of what's being done on the Xs and Os side, more so than in other off seasons.

The goal is to get people to become long-time fans. Without getting into specifics, our research shows if we can get people to a game, there's a good chance they'll come back. If we can get them to come out 3-4 times the odds are really good that they'll keep coming back on a regular basis.

The goal is to make going to an Argo game the best sporting event in the city for fans (I think it is now, but the goal is to make it even better). Be patient, I think you'll like what we have in store for this year.

This is the first full off-season for us to do a plan for a season. I've seen what's gone on behind the scenes and it's impressive. If you think MLSE is in this for the short term, you're wrong. The goal is to make this team a success on and off the field year after year after year.

What our ticketing department did last year with a 4-14 team and essentially three months lead-up to the season was astonishing. After Labour Day there was no walkup crowd, based mostly on the team's record, but overall the paid attendance still went up. There are some incredibly hard-working people with some great ideas busting their rear ends to make this team a success at the gate. Let them work their magic.

I love your passion and your desire to see more splash, but this is not a short-term turnaround in the market, and everyone I work with is aware of that. I hope you continue to work with us, not against us, to make that happen.

Cheers.

[BayArgonaut]

Or maybe the jerseys for all teams will be unveiled at the same time, in a launch coordinated by the league, not individual teams. New Era's contract is with the league. When every team got new jerseys in 2016, there was a single announcement featuring the entire league:

https://www.cfl.ca/2016/05/12/new-season-new-style-the-adidas-cfl-collection-has-landed/

The same thing happened in 2005 when stars from each team (including John Avery of the Argos) came together in the new duds. I fully expect the same thing to happen this time. (And yes, I'm aware that Montreal did an unveil earlier this off-season but that was a complete makeover, including logo. And the Alouettes appeared to be in dire need of extra help getting fan attention.)

its more than likely what you say, but it doesnt have to be exclusive. the launch of any item can be spearheaded by the league but that doesnt mean the team cant ramp up a hype machine. there is plenty to work with to get word out about something i would say is pretty big. Montreal being the first, may mean they're launching from east to west. or no particular way, who knows.
this should be a talking point though, not just an "oh, here you are. surprise!".
unless of course, only montreal gets the overhaul...

[paulwoods13]

its more than likely what you say, but it doesnt have to be exclusive. the launch of any item can be spearheaded by the league but that doesnt mean the team cant ramp up a hype machine. there is plenty to work with to get word out about something i would say is pretty big. Montreal being the first, may mean they're launching from east to west. or no particular way, who knows.
this should be a talking point though, not just an "oh, here you are. surprise!".
unless of course, only montreal gets the overhaul...

So now that you're sounding a bit more rational (and hopefully by now you have also read Mike Hogan's detailed and diplomatic response), would it be too much to ask that you acknowledge that this is not "pathetic to be honest"? The way a few fans are so quick to condemn is astonishing and disheartening at times. In some cases (not yours, to be clear), virtually every post is negative and most amount to repetitious whining. It's a wonder anyone from the org ever bothers to read this forum, much less to offer dignified responses as Hoagie has done more than once.

[Argo57]

Years (if not decades) of brand neglect won’t be turned around overnight, incremental improvements over an extended period of time will ultimately prove to be sustainable.

[BayArgonaut]

Why would we talk up a jersey release when we have at least one other event before that? It's still weeks away. Why would we do that when the Raps and Leafs are both opening playoff series, taking up 99% of the sports pages? You'll find out about these things in due time. We're open to criticism or suggestions, but calling it pathetic is extreme, no?

I read somewhere that patience is a virtue.

If your definition of marketing is putting an ad in the paper or an ad on the radio, that's not the best bang for the buck anymore. The targeting of specific groups, school kids and young athletes, is something that needed to happen in this market and is long overdue. The connection to the Toronto Flag Football League is targeting young athletes who already have an interest in the sport, now we have to get them interested in our brand, team and league. The same goes for the pre-season game, it's an effort to get kids exposed to the Argos at an impressionable age...the same as many of us were. It's the same with our effort to get free footballs into the hands of kids. The more they play, the more inclined they'll be to become fans of the sport.

I think the people on the social media side have done a great job of keeping fans informed and entertained over the off season. I feel our Argonauts.ca content has kept fans informed of what's being done on the Xs and Os side, more so than in other off seasons.

The goal is to get people to become long-time fans. Without getting into specifics, our research shows if we can get people to a game, there's a good chance they'll come back. If we can get them to come out 3-4 times the odds are really good that they'll keep coming back on a regular basis.

The goal is to make going to an Argo game the best sporting event in the city for fans (I think it is now, but the goal is to make it even better). Be patient, I think you'll like what we have in store for this year.

This is the first full off-season for us to do plan for a season. I've seen what's gone on behind the scenes and it's impressive. If you think MLSE is in this for the short term, you're wrong. The goal is to make this team a success on and off the field year after year after year.

What our ticketing department did last year with a 4-14 team and essentially three months lead-up to the season was astonishing. After Labour Day there was no walkup crowd, based mostly on the team's record, but overall the paid attendance still went up. There are some incredibly hard-working people with some great ideas busting their rear ends to make this team a success at the gate. Let them work their magic.

I love your passion and your desire to see more splash, but this is not a short-term turnaround in the market, and everyone I work with is aware of that. I hope you continue to work with us, not against us, to make that happen.

Cheers.


im trusting you on this 'cause you're the guy.

but being in the market, ive grown up with people not even knowing we have a professional football team, so something is off base when people will watch the nfl completely unaware there is a CFL. print or radio or tv isnt my idea of marketing, but really when image is everything around branding and the image isnt even visible it makes you wonder whats being done. i get alot of CFL ads because an algorithm has already determined that im interested in Canadian professional and collegiate football, not the case for many others.

you can always try to allocate a slot for any talking point around the league or a team, but the talking points need to be there. imagine if there was a teaser for anything Argos related while the 2.5 million heads are watching the Leafs v Boston. would it be a resounding success? who knows, but im sure theres a way to test the waters.

even with the amazing game day experience -something i'll never complain about- if people dont know an event is happening, how are they going to participate?
i've kept my renewal of season seats for a while but now am the only one in my group of friends to do so.



one thing i do want to ask you, if you happen to know: whats being done to get new canadians to be fans?
ive been ranting ad nauseam that second language media(maybe even broadcast?) needs to be done in either mandarin, punjabi, arabic, tagalog or cantonese(being the languages with largest increases) so that new canadians can participate in something canadian without giving up a part of their identity.

[Mike Hogan]

We'll obviously pump things up when the season starts. James Wilder Jr, for example, is throwing out the first pitch at the Jays game tomorrow.

Ticketing is targeting new Canadians in terms of group sales. Football can be a difficult sport for newcomers to understand, not just new Canadians, but people unfamiliar with the sport. The goal is to start making a dent with different groups within the GTA's fantastic ethnic gumbo. There's no more "Canadian" event than the Grey Cup, something we're stressing to those groups. Other events are planned as well, again, I'm not going to jump any announcements here.

So...long answer short, we're trying to get a toehold this year so the interest in those communities grows going forward.

As for the interplay with our other properties, the Leafs, Raps etc, the plan is to better cross-promote franchises. That's something that has definitely been talked about and I can guarantee you it's going to improve over time.

It was under the radar, but Derel Walker was flown to Toronto the opening night of free agency. He spent the next night at a Raptors game in a private box with Wilder, Lemon, Edwards, Darby and the personnel guys. The money was significant, but that event helped put him over the top. He cancelled two other planned visits the next day and agreed to the Argos terms. That MLSE connection with the Raps may have sealed the deal.

Much of the stuff being done is directly with a targeted group and wouldn't be visible to the masses. We'll get a lot more visible closer to the season. We just had a meeting to go over what's planned for written content for Argonauts.ca and some of the social media content...I'm going to be a busy boy this season and am energized by that.

I hope you trust me...I'm not BSing you at all. Things will be announced in the days and weeks ahead. I hope you can lure some of your pals back to BMO Field so they can experience some of the improvements. I can honestly say this is a great time to be an Argos fan.

Pull Together.

[paulwoods13]

Also worth noting that Wilder has been promoting the start of the hockey playoffs (i.e. Leafs) this week, and of course Marner was a visible cheerleader at a few Argo games in summer of 2017. These are good cross-promotion initiatives and I have no doubt we'll see more of these in the months and years to come.

[OV Argo]

We'll obviously pump things up when the season starts. James Wilder Jr, for example, is throwing out the first pitch at the Jays game tomorrow.

Ticketing is targeting new Canadians in terms of group sales. Football can be a difficult sport for newcomers to understand, not just new Canadians, but people unfamiliar with the sport. The goal is to start making a dent with different groups within the GTA's fantastic ethnic gumbo. There's no more "Canadian" event than the Grey Cup, something we're stressing to those groups. Other events are planned as well, again, I'm not going to jump any announcements here.

So...long answer short, we're trying to get a toehold this year so the interest in those communities grows going forward.

As for the interplay with our other properties, the Leafs, Raps etc, the plan is to better cross-promote franchises. That's something that has definitely been talked about and I can guarantee you it's going to improve over time.

It was under the radar, but Derel Walker was flown to Toronto the opening night of free agency. He spent the next night at a Raptors game in a private box with Wilder, Lemon, Edwards, Darby and the personnel guys. The money was significant, but that event helped put him over the top. He cancelled two other planned visits the next day and agreed to the Argos terms. That MLSE connection with the Raps may have sealed the deal.

Much of the stuff being done is directly with a targeted group and wouldn't be visible to the masses. We'll get a lot more visible closer to the season. We just had a meeting to go over what's planned for written content for Argonauts.ca and some of the social media content...I'm going to be a busy boy this season and am energized by that.

I hope you trust me...I'm not BSing you at all. Things will be announced in the days and weeks ahead. I hope you can lure some of your pals back to BMO Field so they can experience some of the improvements. I can honestly say this is a great time to be an Argos fan.

Pull Together.


Hope you are right Mike - looking forward to all of the new Argo marketing ideas.

I guess though that none of the ideas that some very passionate Argo fans here have suggested as worth trying are worth addressing? How bout the old style pocket schedules (a much glossier and better version though) that used to be available pumped out on display in convenience, beer & liquor stores counters all over the GTA? How bout approaching a local (or big national) brewer to have Argo caps or tees available in cases of 24 ? - this trick is done for NFL, NHL, Raptors or Jays swag ? MY idea for having an Argo booth with scheds. Argo history & pictures, and an Argo great available to chat - at Leaf or Raptor play-off games (plus Jays games) - is totally useless ?


The points and concern that BayArgonaut brings up in this thread are quite valid IMO - where is the marketing effort up till now? was it better to wait till the start of this season for some reason? Sorry, but I just have little faith in this Argo ownership group in this department at this point> Love to be proven wrong though.

[paulwoods13]

Love to be proven wrong though.

Wish I could believe that.

[Neely2005]

Hope you are right Mike - looking forward to all of the new Argo marketing ideas.

I guess though that none of the ideas that some very passionate Argo fans here have suggested as worth trying are worth addressing? How bout the old style pocket schedules (a much glossier and better version though) that used to be available pumped out on display in convenience, beer & liquor stores counters all over the GTA? How bout approaching a local (or big national) brewer to have Argo caps or tees available in cases of 24 ? - this trick is done for NFL, NHL, Raptors or Jays swag ? MY idea for having an Argo booth with scheds. Argo history & pictures, and an Argo great available to chat - at Leaf or Raptor play-off games (plus Jays games) - is totally useless ?


The points and concern that BayArgonaut brings up in this thread are quite valid IMO - where is the marketing effort up till now? was it better to wait till the start of this season for some reason? Sorry, but I just have little faith in this Argo ownership group in this department at this point> Love to be proven wrong though.

Pocket schedules are not required anymore IMO. Anyone can easily find the schedule on their phone. I do like your earlier idea of having someone like Pinball or the Argonauts cheerleaders at Jurassic Park / Maple Leafs Square to promote the team.

[OV Argo]

Wish I could believe that.



Right; how dare any of us know nothing fans question anything this Argo ownership does; sorry bout that.

[OV Argo]

Pocket schedules are not required anymore IMO. Anyone can easily find the schedule on their phone. I do like your earlier idea of having someone like Pinball or the Argonauts cheerleaders at Jurassic Park / Maple Leafs Square to promote the team.


You could find Ottawa Senators pocket schedules all over the place here going back since they started (maybe they discontinued this season though). To me (and again a bigger, brighter version of these things) i'ts an easy, simple way to market the team and let people know when games are. People aren't about to look up Argos games on their phones if they have no idea they exist. An Argo logo on thousands of counters in convienience, beer & liquor stores across the area just might do something. But maybe nothing.


You can also find Senators AND RedBlacks gear in lots of stores here too - hats, tees. jersies, key-chains, etc. - and the amount of people sporting RedBlacks gear since they have returned to the league is very impressive/noticeable. Is there Argo gear available all over the place in the GTA ? Maybe people there are afraid to wear Argo gear cause some wannabes are going to snicker at them for being un-cool or not "Major League" ?

Leafs & Raptore play-off games are underway - any Argo presence upcoming at these events? - or would that not be allowed for offending wannabes as well ?

[Wobbler]

OV, if you could limit yourself to two (or fewer) sneering comments per message that would be appreciated. For brief posts, maybe aim for zero?

[Shatto]

Can understand why some get tired of people who post negative comments but in their defense, at least they care enough to comment. Too many of my friends are just plain disinterested in the Argos and the CFL. I would prefer if they would show enough interest, to at least comment, even if it were just to complain.

[BayArgonaut]

@Mike Hogan


I Wonder if you know or can disclose what or if MLSE plans on REINVIGORATING our rivalry with Hamilton. That on it's own would make a huge difference. Especially at a regional level

[lazycro]

I have the best pocket schedule like most people under 35. It's a cell phone.
I ride transit everyday and I'm not sure if ads there would even get my attention since I'm either listening to a podcast or watching a show/movie on my way downtown.
I don't have cable so ads on TV take me out of that demographic as well.


I'm on instagram, twitter, facebook though.
I don't even listen to the radio very often since when I'm in the car I throw on spotify on my phone.

So when classic marketing isn't happening anymore you may understand why - There's no reason the Argos can't do some of it to re-invigorate their older fan base but most of that fan base who would have traditional classic marketing appeal to them are already in the know and decide if they want to go to games in general.

We've seen the campaigns to reinvigorate all the teams within the MLSE umbrella and I'm willing to give time to allow them to make some headway

Disagree with me all you want but I believe the future of the fan base depends on the younger generations

[AngeloV]

I have the best pocket schedule like most people under 35. It's a cell phone.
I ride transit everyday and I'm not sure if ads there would even get my attention since I'm either listening to a podcast or watching a show/movie on my way downtown.
I don't have cable so ads on TV take me out of that demographic as well.


I'm on instagram, twitter, facebook though.
I don't even listen to the radio very often since when I'm in the car I throw on spotify on my phone.

So when classic marketing isn't happening anymore you may understand why - There's no reason the Argos can't do some of it to re-invigorate their older fan base but most of that fan base who would have traditional classic marketing appeal to them are already in the know and decide if they want to go to games in general.

We've seen the campaigns to reinvigorate all the teams within the MLSE umbrella and I'm willing to give time to allow them to make some headway

Disagree with me all you want but I believe the future of the fan base depends on the younger generations

Great post. I am over 35 by...well let's just say a couple of years. I am in the same boat as you. I rarely ride the TTC, but Go train to and from work every day and listen to music from my phone almost exclusively on the ride. Some of the thoughts on here are the same as what many have complained about all along, and that being the Argos in the past haven't changed with the times. I have trust in Hoagie and the current brass to change that.

[BayArgonaut]

Im 31, use instagram and twitter mostly.
Ill watch the occasional Netflix and that's something that i would like to see targetted. Admittedly, it's hard for me to see Argos marketing objectively because im a die hard who seeks out anything CFL. But Netflix has the attention of most millenials and if there were a way to sneak into a commercial free streaming service... Damn.
I see instagram ads routinely, but i dont know whether i do because of an algorithm or regional ad distribution setup. Hopefully the latter.
I do think a blowup billboard in pedestrian friendly public spaces would make a difference. Commuter culture thats being cultivated and perpetuated is what kills the effectiveness of visual ads in public spaces, but yonge dundas square for example, is so prominent you cant help but see. Nathan phillips square would be effective as well. Even though targetting commuters has historically been effective because of the sheer volume, we should be targetting people that are already at their destination for the purpose of enjoyment.

Maybe a partnership with cineplex? There plenty of eyes already watching the screen, especially for the blockbusters, people will associate everything in the theatre with the sentiment they left. So an Argos trailer for the season would be cool, cinematic style. Especially for targetting new canadians, lots of cineplex show second language releases.

Thinking aloud here

[Mike Hogan]

Some good ideas, will bring them up.

Yes we're working on picking the Ticats rivalry up a notch, you'll notice more shots in my articles as a starter.

https://www.argonauts.ca/2018/12/20/hogan-argos-schedule-offers-bit-everything/
(https://www.argonauts.ca/2018/12/20/hogan-argos-schedule-offers-bit-everything/)

We are working very hard on content and social media and saw this graphic yesterday. Hopefully it's paying off.





https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4OE425X4AER1-O.jpg

[BayArgonaut]

Some good ideas, will bring them up.

Yes we're working on picking the Ticats rivalry up a notch, you'll notice more shots in my articles as a starter.

https://www.argonauts.ca/2018/12/20/hogan-argos-schedule-offers-bit-everything/
(https://www.argonauts.ca/2018/12/20/hogan-argos-schedule-offers-bit-everything/)

We are working very hard on content and social media and saw this graphic yesterday. Hopefully it's paying off.





https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4OE425X4AER1-O.jpg


I saw this and made sure to retweet as well. It was surprising to see, but im glad. Also surprised that BC hasnt received more hits, their marketing is on fire lately

[Argo57]

Great post. I am over 35 by...well let's just say a couple of years. I am in the same boat as you. I rarely ride the TTC, but Go train to and from work every day and listen to music from my phone almost exclusively on the ride. Some of the thoughts on here are the same as what many have complained about all along, and that being the Argos in the past haven't changed with the times. I have trust in Hoagie and the current brass to change that.

I’m almost half Angelo’s age and I also agree, traditional marketing methods have limited effect in today’s world.

[argonaut11xx]

I saw this and made sure to retweet as well. It was surprising to see, but im glad. Also surprised that BC hasnt received more hits, their marketing is on fire lately

Real World in BC, theres not much BC Lions talk on the streets/bars/groceries stores.

The internet is so fake and phoney these days, who knows.

[gilthethrill]

I’m almost half Angelo’s age and I also agree, traditional marketing methods have limited effect in today’s world.

Gosh that makes you quite elderly.

[BayArgonaut]

I just finished watching Shazam with my girl friend and i noticed there was some Ticats merchandise in the convenience store scene. I wonder if that has a major effect... Most people definitely dont notice it but the trained eye would.

[KCargosfan]

Some good ideas, will bring them up.

Yes we're working on picking the Ticats rivalry up a notch, you'll notice more shots in my articles as a starter.

https://www.argonauts.ca/2018/12/20/hogan-argos-schedule-offers-bit-everything/
(https://www.argonauts.ca/2018/12/20/hogan-argos-schedule-offers-bit-everything/)

We are working very hard on content and social media and saw this graphic yesterday. Hopefully it's paying off.





https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4OE425X4AER1-O.jpg

This is more proof that the Als might be the worst-run professional organization in sports.

[matthew]

Another idea might be to explore what is the the fastest growing connected tech space in canada...Smart Speakers.

Argos could be the first team to launch an Alexa skill where we could check game dates and times, get 1-min flash briefings etc. Great and cost effective way to connect with fans and new customers. Love to have a Hoagie-hosted flash breifing.

Something to think about. I use my Alexa Echo Dots for pretty much everything in my connected home especially in the am when getting ready for work checking news and weather. Argos could easily be a part of that. Great way to get fans weekly updates.


Some good ideas, will bring them up.

Yes we're working on picking the Ticats rivalry up a notch, you'll notice more shots in my articles as a starter.

https://www.argonauts.ca/2018/12/20/hogan-argos-schedule-offers-bit-everything/
(https://www.argonauts.ca/2018/12/20/hogan-argos-schedule-offers-bit-everything/)

We are working very hard on content and social media and saw this graphic yesterday. Hopefully it's paying off.





https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4OE425X4AER1-O.jpg

[BayArgonaut]

Another idea might be to explore what is the the fastest growing connected tech space in canada...Smart Speakers.

Argos could be the first team to launch an Alexa skill where we could check game dates and times, get 1-min flash briefings etc. Great and cost effective way to connect with fans and new customers. Love to have a Hoagie-hosted flash breifing.

Something to think about. I use my Alexa Echo Dots for pretty much everything in my connected home especially in the am when getting ready for work checking news and weather. Argos could easily be a part of that. Great way to get fans weekly updates.

On that note, music streaming services. Spotify has plenty of ad space for free users to get targetted by. Between Spotify and Apple music you can reach most of the youngins as they are 1 and 2.

[CFLfan]

Years (if not decades) of brand neglect won’t be turned around overnight, incremental improvements over an extended period of time will ultimately prove to be sustainable.

It's always easy to blame "lack of marketing" etc but the last owner was part of MLSE and they did a great job of marketing.
How can anyone say that the brand was neglected? When they moved to BMO there was tons of publicity/marketing, the TV ads with the players running through the Princes Gates, the billboards, ads on the TTC all over the place. The publicity with the Shipyards, the concerts the $4 Beers etc
The Rap performers, the Doug Fluties boble head night.
Last year it was the $20 tickets, the $5 in-stadium draft beer, the Ex-tickets with admission.
This year a lot of talk about the pre-season game at Varsity for school kids.
Why do we always have to blame the owners for lack of marketing?
MLSE has to market, it's their team, why wouldn't they try to sell their own product?

[Argo57]

It's always easy to blame "lack of marketing" etc but the last owner was part of MLSE and they did a great job of marketing.
How can anyone say that the brand was neglected? When they moved to BMO there was tons of publicity/marketing, the TV ads with the players running through the Princes Gates, the billboards, ads on the TTC all over the place. The publicity with the Shipyards, the concerts the $4 Beers etc
The Rap performers, the Doug Fluties boble head night.
Last year it was the $20 tickets, the $5 in-stadium draft beer, the Ex-tickets with admission.
This year a lot of talk about the pre-season game at Varsity for school kids.
Why do we always have to blame the owners for lack of marketing?
MLSE has to market, it's their team, why wouldn't they try to sell their own product?

As I said years if not decades of brand neglect won’t be turned around overnight as we are seeing right now.
The move to BMO occurred in 2016, Argos for various reasons have been shrinking in the Toronto sports scene since the mid 1980’s.

[jerrym]

Here's one effort to get some attention.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Join <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TorontoArgos</a> star RB <a href="https://twitter.com/IAm_Wilder32?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@IAm_Wilder32</a> this weekend at Centreville’s Easter EGGstravaganza! He will be visiting Centreville Saturday and Sunday from 1-2pm. <br><br>Get your tickets today —&gt; <a href="https://t.co/mS3fjMlB0p">https://t.co/mS3fjMlB0p</a> <a href="https://t.co/x5R5KAyH88">pic.twitter.com/x5R5KAyH88</a></p>&mdash; Centreville Amusement Park (@Centreville4Fun) <a href="https://twitter.com/Centreville4Fun/status/1119012750246596609?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 18, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[BayArgonaut]

As I said years if not decades of brand neglect won’t be turned around overnight as we are seeing right now.
The move to BMO occurred in 2016, Argos for various reasons have been shrinking in the Toronto sports scene since the mid 1980’s.

many will turn the blackouts for having lost an entire generation. im afraid i wasnt alive for that so i dont have a reference for it.
is that true though? im sure blackouts do not help one bit, but can anyone conclusively prove that was The major hit?(against the cfl as a whole)

[paulwoods13]

many will turn the blackouts for having lost an entire generation. im afraid i wasnt alive for that so i dont have a reference for it.
is that true though? im sure blackouts do not help one bit, but can anyone conclusively prove that was The major hit?(against the cfl as a whole)

I don't know anyone who says the blackout was the major reason for the CFL's decline in popularity from its peak in the period between 1976 and 1982 or so. It was just one of many, many reasons.

[AngeloV]

I don't know anyone who says the blackout was the major reason for the CFL's decline in popularity from its peak in the period between 1976 and 1982 or so. It was just one of many, many reasons.

I will continue to say the biggest factor was when the NFL started paying larger salaries. When the salaries of the 2 leagues were relatively in the same ball park for the higher end players, nobody looked down on the CFL. Once the NFL salaries skyrocketed, people (especially casual fans) started to see the CFL as 2nd rate. It's all about perception IMO.

As a Buffalo Bills fan of the NFL, I can say that the majority of their home games pre Jim Kelly era were blacked out in their market, which includes the GTA.

[paulwoods13]

It's worth noting that, according to this comprehensive and credible account (http://www.broadcasting-history.ca/in-depth/cfl-television-years), CFL blackouts began in the early 1950s. Blackouts were first lifted on an experimental basis in 1987, and by 1991 the Argos were no longer blacking out their home games. Blackouts didn't seem to cause the loss of a "generation of fans" in the 1950s and 1960s, yet that is what is often said about the 1970s and 1980s. Clearly there were other factors that caused the drop-off in attendance that began around 1980 in Montreal, 1983-84 in Toronto and a bit later in Edmonton and Vancouver.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

many will turn the blackouts for having lost an entire generation. im afraid i wasnt alive for that so i dont have a reference for it.
is that true though? im sure blackouts do not help one bit, but can anyone conclusively prove that was The major hit?(against the cfl as a whole)

BayArgonaut,

I will leave this link to give you a feel for what was going on during 1987.
This was the year Toronto pretty much broke up with the CFL.

https://www.si.com/vault/1987/11/09/116556/staying-away-in-flocks-as-far-as-most-canadians-are-concerned-their-pro-football-league-is-for-the-birds-a-victim-of-terrible-management


(https://www.si.com/vault/1987/11/09/116556/staying-away-in-flocks-as-far-as-most-canadians-are-concerned-their-pro-football-league-is-for-the-birds-a-victim-of-terrible-management)

[CFLfan]

As I said years if not decades of brand neglect won’t be turned around overnight as we are seeing right now.
The move to BMO occurred in 2016, Argos for various reasons have been shrinking in the Toronto sports scene since the mid 1980’s.

Agree but why the big drop SINCE moving to BMO? Moving back to the CNE in a smaller stadium was supposed to be the Argos saviour. The average crowd was around 24k to 26k at the dome for final 5 or 6 years there (I don't count that final year), what happened to the 10k fans?
My theory is that the Argos have a majority of "older baby boomer" followers and many didn't want to sit outside or just didn't want to change.

[paulwoods13]

Agree but why the big drop SINCE moving to BMO? Moving back to the CNE in a smaller stadium was supposed to be the Argos saviour. The average crowd was around 24k to 26k at the dome for final 5 or 6 years there (I don't count that final year), what happened to the 10k fans?
My theory is that the Argos have a majority of "older baby boomer" followers and many didn't want to sit outside or just didn't want to change.

Two points about SkyDome attendance:

1. The average reported attendance for the final five years at SkyDome (not counting 2015) was 21,477, according to CFLdb (https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-argonauts/).

2014 19,687
2013 21,926
2012 23,689
2011 20,017
2010 22,069
2009 26,374
2008 29,189
2007 26,423
2006 29,677
2005 30,195

2. Those are all reported attendance figures, and don't reflect either paid attendance or reality, IMO.

Having said that, there is no doubt that some fans from the SkyDome era (and not just Baby Boomers) don't like sitting outside. Too bad for them; that ship has sailed and we now play in a facility that IMO is infinitely better for football than SkyDome ever was.

[gilthethrill]

Two points about SkyDome attendance:

1. The average reported attendance for the final five years at SkyDome (not counting 2015) was 21,477, according to CFLdb (https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-argonauts/).

2014 19,687
2013 21,926
2012 23,689
2011 20,017
2010 22,069
2009 26,374
2008 29,189
2007 26,423
2006 29,677
2005 30,195

2. Those are all reported attendance figures, and don't reflect either paid attendance or reality, IMO.

Having said that, there is no doubt that some fans from the SkyDome era (and not just Baby Boomers) don't like sitting outside. Too bad for them; that ship has sailed and we now play in a facility that IMO is infinitely better for football than SkyDome ever was.

I miss nothing about RC ...absolutely nothing. Argos have a much better schedule as well as a much better venue.

[OV Argo]

I miss nothing about RC ...absolutely nothing. Argos have a much better schedule as well as a much better venue.

Sure, yes; everybody thought nice new venue for the Argos going from the SkyDump ... but they had attendance at least in the 20K or above mark there in the mid 2000s era (or is that a total lie and it was more like under 20 mostly?); last year's attendance at the nice, newer outdoor facility = epic fail and an embarrassment. In the corporation we trust though. ;o)

[AngeloV]

Sure, yes; everybody thought nice new venue for the Argos going from the SkyDump ... but they had attendance at least in the 20K or above mark there in the mid 2000s era (or is that a total lie and it was more like under 20 mostly?); last year's attendance at the nice, newer outdoor facility = epic fail and an embarrassment. In the corporation we trust though. ;o)

Honestly, as someone that went to all but 3 games in all the years the Argos were in the dome, I can say that from 2000 on, I never believed the announced attendance. I always thought it was papered.

[Neely2005]

I miss nothing about RC ...absolutely nothing. Argos have a much better schedule as well as a much better venue.

One thing that I miss is having proper seats. The seats in the 200 Level at BMO Field are garbage and the ones in the 100 Level aren't that much better. Having access to the Subway was nice too.

[BayArgonaut]

I miss nothing about RC ...absolutely nothing. Argos have a much better schedule as well as a much better venue.

I miss the bar strip before games, going to them after.
The amenities in the stadium were much better I think, and if you sat in the 100's you had an excellent view. In certain spots, you come to appreciate how the stad ium curves. In others it's a damn obstruction.
Way more accessible via transit
Not to mention the fact it was warm on cold days

[gilthethrill]

I miss the bar strip before games, going to them after.
The amenities in the stadium were much better I think, and if you sat in the 100's you had an excellent view. In certain spots, you come to appreciate how the stad ium curves. In others it's a damn obstruction.
Way more accessible via transit
Not to mention the fact it was warm on cold days

I agree with Neely about the seats in the 200 level. The weather form The Argos since the move to BMO has been nothing to complain about. Coming from the west, access to BMO is much easier. RC was crap for watching football. Does anyone remember how poorly the team was treated by the owners of the RC. I honestly doubt I will set foot inside that aging slab of concrete ever again.

[RB957]

I wasn't sure that this deserves its own thread, and the topic kind of relates to this thread... anyway, this past weekend the opening game of the Canadian Premier (Soccer) League at Tim Hortons Field drew over 17K fans. Toronto Wolfpack home opener drew over 9,000 fans at Lamport. This suggests, to me, that there is interest in the GTA in sporting events other than the "major leagues". So what gives with the continued lack of interest in the CFL?? It is a high level, highly competitive and entertaining game... yet for whatever reason, we can't seem toget any real traction. What gives? I am so glad we have the financial stability and organizational support that comes with being owned by MLSE. I have taken Mike Hogan's comments about everything that is being done to pump up interest to heart, and am very hopeful for bigger crowds, but I remain perplexed as to why it has been so difficult.

[paulwoods13]

Two points: 1. The Hamilton soccer game was free attendance, so I'd wait until people have to pay for tickets before drawing many conclusions there. 2. Wolfpack are the top brand of rugby available in this market, which has (as far as I know) next to no TV coverage. Unlike the CFL which has to contend with hundreds of hours of TV programming from the biggest football league in the world.

Having said all that, I find it heartening that the Wolfpack have started to build a nice little niche and see no reason why the Argos (whose niche is already at least twice as large as the Wolfpack's attendance-wise, and multiple times larger revenue-wise) can't keep growing attendance over time.

[Neely2005]

Two points: 1. The Hamilton soccer game was free attendance, so I'd wait until people have to pay for tickets before drawing many conclusions there. 2. Wolfpack are the top brand of rugby available in this market, which has (as far as I know) next to no TV coverage. Unlike the CFL which has to contend with hundreds of hours of TV programming from the biggest football league in the world.

Having said all that, I find it heartening that the Wolfpack have started to build a nice little niche and see no reason why the Argos (whose niche is already at least twice as large as the Wolfpack's attendance-wise, and multiple times larger revenue-wise) can't keep growing attendance over time.

Are the Wolfpack still giving away thousands of free tickets to every game?

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Are the Wolfpack still giving away thousands of free tickets to every game?

Can Toronto support a second pro rugby team?

https://torontoarrows.com/

[Neely2005]

Can Toronto support a second pro rugby team?

https://torontoarrows.com/

Are those tickets free too?

[doubleblue]

One of the things all of us were excited about when MLSE bought the Argos was their branding power and marketing potential. to date, i cannot recall seeing any bit of visual merchandising or advertising for the Argos. has anyone seen any around? has anyone heard word of any plans to initiate a (series) of promotions?

ill admit im severely disappointed in how little mlse has done for the visibility of the Argos thus far. im still hopeful, but im a 31 year old who has friends as young as 22 who have no idea Toronto has a professional football team. its disastrous.

I was listening to one of the Toronto sports radio show the other day and they were joking about an add the Leafs had out for hiring a new position in their office. All the sports teams owned by MLSE were listed in the add, except one. You guessed it, The Argos. Probably because some office slug has failed to update things since the Argos have come on board. But it does show how MLSE maybe views the Argos when the Marlies are more important.

[OV Argo]

I was listening to one of the Toronto sports radio show the other day and they were joking about an add the Leafs had out for hiring a new position in their office. All the sports teams owned by MLSE were listed in the add, except one. You guessed it, The Argos. Probably because some office slug has failed to update things since the Argos have come on board. But it does show how MLSE maybe views the Argos when the Marlies are more important.


Maybe MLSE is embarrassed about owning the Argos and don't want it well known? - not "world class" or "major league" and all. Sort of like Argo fans in Toronto who are afraid to wear Argo gear about town cause some wannabes would look down on them or mock or laugh ? ;o)

[ArgofanIan]

Thought the ARGOs having a draft party was a nice gesture. Think events like this are positive for our fans , good marketing and hopefully something we can build on. Hope they have a viewing party at real sports or similar event. Some of the events / games this summer look like will be fun.

Still think they should advertise on AM740 to the zoomer crowd but I realize most disagree.

[BayArgonaut]

Thought the ARGOs having a draft party was a nice gesture. Think events like this are positive for our fans , good marketing and hopefully something we can build on. Hope they have a viewing party at real sports or similar event. Some of the events / games this summer look like will be fun.

Still think they should advertise on AM740 to the zoomer crowd but I realize most disagree.


i wish i had gone, but i rsvp'd too late for an invite. oh well.


one thing i noticed about CFL and specific CFL team advertising is that it's only ever been on during game broadcasts. "this is argos football" and CFL gameday tickets only ever air(ed) during games for people already fans of the team. i thought that was pretty redundant. i would assume that you want to target sports fans as a whole and people who are unaware of your product- the youth. im not in marketing or anything so i cant argue that this is the right or wrong way to promote a team but it just seems like they unnecessarily oversaturated one demographic who are already fans.

[Will]

The Argos had a table at the Marlies game on Wednesday.

[Neely2005]

i wish i had gone, but i rsvp'd too late for an invite. oh well.


one thing i noticed about CFL and specific CFL team advertising is that it's only ever been on during game broadcasts. "this is argos football" and CFL gameday tickets only ever air(ed) during games for people already fans of the team. i thought that was pretty redundant. i would assume that you want to target sports fans as a whole and people who are unaware of your product- the youth. im not in marketing or anything so i cant argue that this is the right or wrong way to promote a team but it just seems like they unnecessarily oversaturated one demographic who are already fans.

In the first year at BMO Field there were plenty of TV commercials on outside of Argonauts games and on non sports channels too.

[AngeloV]

The Argos had a table at the Marlies game on Wednesday.

Smart. Similar pricing so that is a good target.

[BayArgonaut]

In the first year at BMO Field there were plenty of TV commercials on outside of Argonauts games and on non sports channels too.

I must have missed all of them :S


I will commend how the Argos are making everything into an event as of late. If you can make every event seem like a large party, you can make people want to attend. Hopefully it gains traction and creates buzz in the city

https://twitter.com/TheArgosOARS/status/1124419709523329030?s=19

[OV Argo]

The Argos had a table at the Marlies game on Wednesday.

WTF? - that's as dumb an idea as pocket schedules all over town; Argos probably don't rate a table at Jays or Raptors games though - not Major League enough and would probably have to endure mocking or laughs from wannabes there.

[gilthethrill]

I was surprised that the Sun did not any articles written by Toronto writers on the Argos draft. I realize that's not the teams doing but I wonder why Torontos pro football team can't have a beat writer of some sort.

[Neely2005]

I must have missed all of them :S


I will commend how the Argos are making everything into an event as of late. If you can make every event seem like a large party, you can make people want to attend. Hopefully it gains traction and creates buzz in the city

https://twitter.com/TheArgosOARS/status/1124419709523329030?s=19

Versions of this were in heavy rotation on numerous channels:

https://youtu.be/bZ67WkHerao

[AngeloV]

Versions of this were in heavy rotation on numerous channels:

https://youtu.be/bZ67WkHerao

For sure. There were tons of those leading up to the '16 season.

[KCargosfan]

I was surprised that the Sun did not any articles written by Toronto writers on the Argos draft. I realize that's not the teams doing but I wonder why Torontos pro football team can't have a beat writer of some sort.

Then they’d actually have to hire and pay someone.

[paulwoods13]

Then they’d actually have to hire and pay someone.

I don't know where that comment is coming from, but it can't be based on ever having picked up a copy of the paper. The Sun employs more sports reporters and columnists than any other news outlet in Canada. They cover the Argos regularly and do have a "beat" reporter (Zicarelli). He also provides secondary coverage of the Raptors, who are in the playoffs and therefore receiving intensive coverage. As for pay, the Sun is unionized and its pay rates are aligned with other union shops in this country, albeit a lot higher than the hedge fund that owns the paper would like them to be.

EDIT: I now see Zicarelli is on the road this weekend with the Blue Jays. I doubt he is permanently assigned to the baseball beat, but I guess we'll see in the coming weeks. Regardless, there is no reason to believe the Sun won't continue its deep coverage of Argos (and to a lesser extent the Ticats) this season. (As an aside, I would love to see someone like Mike Ganter replace Zicarelli as the primary Argo reporter, but I doubt that will happen. I think FZ will be covering Argos until he retires.)

[paulwoods13]

MLSE gives Argos equal prominence with Leafs, Raps and TFC in its Playground Pros program (https://www.playgroundpros.ca/).

[BayArgonaut]

Versions of this were in heavy rotation on numerous channels:

https://youtu.be/bZ67WkHerao


I do Remember seeing them, but never outside of a football slot during the season, and only on tsn before it's start

[matthew]

Interesting it shows the offical tailgate that was cancelled. I guess its still fine to show now that "tailgating" is legal.

[Neely2005]

I do Remember seeing them, but never outside of a football slot during the season, and only on tsn before it's start

I saw them on CTV, CP24 and TSN.

[KCargosfan]

I don't know where that comment is coming from, but it can't be based on ever having picked up a copy of the paper. The Sun employs more sports reporters and columnists than any other news outlet in Canada. They cover the Argos regularly and do have a "beat" reporter (Zicarelli). He also provides secondary coverage of the Raptors, who are in the playoffs and therefore receiving intensive coverage. As for pay, the Sun is unionized and its pay rates are aligned with other union shops in this country, albeit a lot higher than the hedge fund that owns the paper would like them to be.

EDIT: I now see Zicarelli is on the road this weekend with the Blue Jays. I doubt he is permanently assigned to the baseball beat, but I guess we'll see in the coming weeks. Regardless, there is no reason to believe the Sun won't continue its deep coverage of Argos (and to a lesser extent the Ticats) this season. (As an aside, I would love to see someone like Mike Ganter replace Zicarelli as the primary Argo reporter, but I doubt that will happen. I think FZ will be covering Argos until he retires.)

Correct, as I live about a 24-hour drive from Toronto I have not picked up a copy of the Sun. gilthethrill’s comment made it sound as if there was no beat reporter.

If the Sun is owned by a hedge fund like many media properties down here, it wil only be a matter of time before layoffs happen, union or not.

[AngeloV]

Interesting it shows the offical tailgate that was cancelled. I guess its still fine to show now that "tailgating" is legal.

It's an old commercial from 2016, not something they are running now.

[gilthethrill]

Correct, as I live about a 24-hour drive from Toronto I have not picked up a copy of the Sun. gilthethrill’s comment made it sound as if there was no beat reporter.

If the Sun is owned by a hedge fund like many media properties down here, it wil only be a matter of time before layoffs happen, union or not.

Simply put, the CFL draft is a significant event. If Frank Z was on the road covering the Jays (great more coverage of the Jays), then the Sun should have sent Jimmy from the Mailroom or Agnus from Accounting....somebody....the Argos did a fine job with that event, it should have had coverage.

[OV Argo]

Simply put, the CFL draft is a significant event. If Frank Z was on the road covering the Jays (great more coverage of the Jays), then the Sun should have sent Jimmy from the Mailroom or Agnus from Accounting....somebody....the Argos did a fine job with that event, it should have had coverage.

Exactly; and if mighty MLSE can't leverage some way more Argo respect & coverage - there is something wrong with that picture - suggesting epic fail like in the pathetic attendance last season.

[paulwoods13]

Simply put, the CFL draft is a significant event. If Frank Z was on the road covering the Jays (great more coverage of the Jays), then the Sun should have sent Jimmy from the Mailroom or Agnus from Accounting....somebody....the Argos did a fine job with that event, it should have had coverage.

Perhaps you've noticed that the Sun's sports section is no longer as big as it used to be. Nowadays it is typically 24 pages, and sometimes 20. Two-three years ago it was typically 24, often 28 and sometimes 32. That's a function of reduced ad sales. So revenue is dropping, and so is the space for editorial content. And yet the paper still sends reporters on the road for every game by every team it covers, including the Argos and TFC -- something no other paper in town has been able to say for a few years.

Newspapers are bleeding money, and the Sun's owner is a hedge fund that cares not a whit about journalism -- just wants its investment back (good luck with that). Whether or not Postmedia will still be here in a few years is very much an open question. Given all that, and the fact that the Sun is engaged in full-court coverage of the Raptors' playoff run, I think it's completely reasonable that CFL draft coverage was not a priority. The CFL draft is indeed a significant event -- to CFL fans, and there aren't many of them in this market.

I now await the "apologist" accusations from some quarters.

[Argo57]

Perhaps you've noticed that the Sun's sports section is no longer as big as it used to be. Nowadays it is typically 24 pages, and sometimes 20. Two-three years ago it was typically 24, often 28 and sometimes 32. That's a function of reduced ad sales. So revenue is dropping, and so is the space for editorial content. And yet the paper still sends reporters on the road for every game by every team it covers, including the Argos and TFC -- something no other paper in town has been able to say for a few years.

Newspapers are bleeding money, and the Sun's owner is a hedge fund that cares not a whit about journalism -- just wants its investment back (good luck with that). Whether or not Postmedia will still be here in a few years is very much an open question. Given all that, and the fact that the Sun is engaged in full-court coverage of the Raptors' playoff run, I think it's completely reasonable that CFL draft coverage was not a priority. The CFL draft is indeed a significant event -- to CFL fans, and there aren't many of them in this market.

I now await the "apologist" accusations from some quarters.

Protecting your media cronies again eh Mr Woods😁

[KCargosfan]

Perhaps you've noticed that the Sun's sports section is no longer as big as it used to be. Nowadays it is typically 24 pages, and sometimes 20. Two-three years ago it was typically 24, often 28 and sometimes 32. That's a function of reduced ad sales. So revenue is dropping, and so is the space for editorial content. And yet the paper still sends reporters on the road for every game by every team it covers, including the Argos and TFC -- something no other paper in town has been able to say for a few years.

Newspapers are bleeding money, and the Sun's owner is a hedge fund that cares not a whit about journalism -- just wants its investment back (good luck with that). Whether or not Postmedia will still be here in a few years is very much an open question. Given all that, and the fact that the Sun is engaged in full-court coverage of the Raptors' playoff run, I think it's completely reasonable that CFL draft coverage was not a priority. The CFL draft is indeed a significant event -- to CFL fans, and there aren't many of them in this market.

I now await the "apologist" accusations from some quarters.

If a tab is still putting out 24 pages of content, that's very impressive.

Do you work for The Sun?

[CFLfan]

I must have missed all of them :S


I will commend how the Argos are making everything into an event as of late. If you can make every event seem like a large party, you can make people want to attend. Hopefully it gains traction and creates buzz in the city

https://twitter.com/TheArgosOARS/status/1124419709523329030?s=19

How could you have missed it? the Argos and the CFL had posters at almost every TTC station, billboards all over the GTA, ads on TV with the team running through the Princes Gates. Tons of sports coverage in the media about the Argos "new" stadium. There was a lot of news about the Argos Tail gate, the Shipyard concerts, the cheap ticket sales etc.

It's always easy to blame "lack of marketing" for small crowds or that the Sun should devote more articles about the Argos. That's not the problem.
These days most people, especially young people, get their sports news on-line. They aren't picking up a paper copy of the Sun etc to get their news. Any one can google "Argos" or "CFL" and they get numerous articles.
Everyone in Toronto knows about the Argos, more marketing is not going to make any difference.
People complained that Braley didn't spend money on marketing but attendance averaged 13k higher at the RC over the last 5 seasons there.

[gilthethrill]

If a tab is still putting out 24 pages of content, that's very impressive.

Do you work for The Sun?

Oh, the Toronto Sun can only wish that he did! What a fine addition he would make.

[paulwoods13]

If a tab is still putting out 24 pages of content, that's very impressive.

Do you work for The Sun?

Nope.

FYI today's Sun sports section is 20 pages. There has been only one 24-page section in the past week. It's a very tight squeeze between Raptors, NHL playoffs, Blue Jays and everything else at the moment.

[paulwoods13]

People complained that Braley didn't spend money on marketing but attendance averaged 13k higher at the RC over the last 5 seasons there.


This is the second time you have made a demonstrably false statement about how high attendance was in the Dome. As I pointed out previously, these are the actual reported attendance figures (and I use the word reported deliberately -- there is no way these numbers represent either paid attendance or actual bodies in the building):

2014 19,687
2013 21,926
2012 23,689
2011 20,017
2010 22,069
2009 26,374
2008 29,189
2007 26,423
2006 29,677
2005 30,195

[1971GreyCup]

The Toronto Wolfpack has come out with a package that includes admission and public transit on Go Transit. Great idea. Hopefully the Argos can establish as a similar deal!

https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-with-us/promotions-and-events/wolfpack

[GregR]

Toronto Wolfpack are doing a lot of things right.

[CFLfan]

The Toronto Wolfpack has come out with a package that includes admission and public transit on Go Transit. Great idea. Hopefully the Argos can establish as a similar deal!

https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-with-us/promotions-and-events/wolfpack

Might be good marketing but not a deal that the Argos should copy. Argos have the cheap tickets again this year.

The Wolfpack GO deal: All seats $35 (GO transit included)
Cheapest Argo tickets $21 - cheaper to buy an Argo ticket and buy your GO ticket separate.

[gilthethrill]

Might be good marketing but not a deal that the Argos should copy. Argos have the cheap tickets again this year.

The Wolfpack GO deal: All seats $35 (GO transit included)
Cheapest Argo tickets $21 - cheaper to buy an Argo ticket and buy your GO ticket separate.

My GO ticket from Aldershot actually costs more than my Argo ticket now that I think of it.

[Scooter McCray]

I wish MLSE which is Bell and Roger's would just cover the team with their media assets. Yesterday the only time Overdrive brought up Ricky Ray was at end naming him man of Stihl. A lot of their show was talking about nothing. Don't understand it or accept it. Never will.

[Antwon]

I wish MLSE which is Bell and Roger's would just cover the team with their media assets. Yesterday the only time Overdrive brought up Ricky Ray was at end naming him man of Stihl. A lot of their show was talking about nothing. Don't understand it or accept it. Never will.

Overdrive is on TSN, how they didn't have a segment to talk about his career is beyond me. If Ray was not doing interviews after the conference call, at least get someone on to talk about it. Popp, Barker, anyone from the TSN football panel.
This reinforces why the CFL needs to spread it's broadcast deal to multiple partners.

[Will]

Not saying it is right, but the Overdrive guys have never been particularly CFL friendly.

[argolio]

Not saying it is right, but the Overdrive guys have never been particularly CFL friendly.That's fair, though I'd say more neutral than negative. Generally speaking, the local sports media gives extensive coverage to the teams which play in leagues with billion dollar TV contracts and million dollar players, and limited coverage to everything else. That's what Toronto has become, and that's what the Argos are up against.

[Argo57]

My GO ticket from Aldershot actually costs more than my Argo ticket now that I think of it.

Yes sir, for Eric and I $48.00 return Aldershot to Exhibition.
Not cheap Dean.

[CFLfan]

Yes sir, for Eric and I $48.00 return Aldershot to Exhibition.
Not cheap Dean.

I assume that's for two? the fare is $28 return ($14 each way) if you travel on a Saturday, not bad.
If you drive parking will cost you $25 or $12.50 each, add the cheap $21 Argo tickets - pretty good deal when compared to attending a game in Hamilton or Ottawa

https://reservia.viarail.ca/search/tripresult.aspx?t=D&from=bc

[ArgoZ]

Driving from Aldershot and back will cost $25 parking, $10 gas, $5-10 wear and tear (depending on vehicle) $45 total and way faster than GO with no traffic, but way slower with Friday night traffic, which we have quite a few games that night this year. Not an Argos problem but GO shouldn’t be almost the same cost. GO is fine by yourself. When you add people to your party and your paying, it’s expensive.

[AngeloV]

Driving from Aldershot and back will cost $25 parking, $10 gas, $5-10 wear and tear (depending on vehicle) $45 total and way faster than GO with no traffic, but way slower with Friday night traffic, which we have quite a few games that night this year. Not an Argos problem but GO shouldn’t be almost the same cost. GO is fine by yourself. When you add people to your party and your paying, it’s expensive.

You can cut that down by close to $20 if you park in Liberty village. I park in a lot that costs me $3 after 6 on weeknights and all day weekends very close to the go station. Only exceptions last season were the Thursday night game Carribana weekend and the CNE game where they have attendants charging 20.

[ArgoZ]

You can cut that down by close to $20 if you park in Liberty village. I park in a lot that costs me $3 after 6 on weeknights and all day weekends very close to the go station. Only exceptions last season were the Thursday night game Carribana weekend and the CNE game where they have attendants charging 20.

NICE! I sometimes park near the restaurants in Liberty City for $15, but I didn't think that was a fair comparison to the GO that drops you off beside the stadium. Care to share where the $3 lot is? With prices like that, the only reason to take the GO is traffic.

[Neely2005]

Driving from Aldershot and back will cost $25 parking, $10 gas, $5-10 wear and tear (depending on vehicle) $45 total and way faster than GO with no traffic, but way slower with Friday night traffic, which we have quite a few games that night this year. Not an Argos problem but GO shouldn’t be almost the same cost. GO is fine by yourself. When you add people to your party and your paying, it’s expensive.

Public transit is heavily subsidized by taxpayers, in reality it should cost much more.

[gilthethrill]

Yes sir, for Eric and I $48.00 return Aldershot to Exhibition.
Not cheap Dean.

Gee Craig it never dawned on me that you and your lad take that same train. Will have to try to coordinate a ride in some time and engage in meaningful conversation. The GO is very reliable and I estimate it takes about 60km off my drive each way.

[Argo57]

Gee Craig it never dawned on me that you and your lad take that same train. Will have to try to coordinate a ride in some time and engage in meaningful conversation. The GO is very reliable and I estimate it takes about 60km off my drive each way.

Absolutely, let me know your train times and we will meet up, my sons IQ drops several points and his knuckles drag on the ground when he puts his Ticat gear on making meaningful conversation impossible😛

[cfl-cis fan]

The Argos can certainly do a better job marketing their Canadian players ............ If I was not familiar with the Canadian content requirements I would not know. Just sayin .....

[shayman]

My son and I went to the Raptors game on Tuesday and I was pleased to see that a pregame video about safety or proper in game behaviour or something featured representation from all the MLSE squads, including the Argos. Not a big deal but nice to see the sort of cross promotion between MLSE teams that we'd all like more of.

[bannedforlife]

Good to see Mike Hogan actively engaging with the fanbase and with that I'll throw in my two cents. Three ideas I'd like to see discussed:

1. How about season ticket holders (throughout the season and beyond) getting invited to a corporate box to meet celebs and bond with other ST holders and live it up as a reward for their loyalty.

2. Football does a terrible job explaining what's going on. I've been watching for a hundred years and I don't know what half of the terminology means. New Canadians and new comers to football need to know why they line up that way, what is a post pattern, etc. Football 101 at that simplistic level is never explained. I know this is not a specific Argo issue but if the Commish says he wants to work with the teams someone should plant a bug in his ear.

Curling does a great job at this. Unless you're an avid curler most people watching haven't a clue what's going on but the commentators explain things very well.

3. Somebody may have already mentioned this about getting Punjabi broadcasts etc. The story was related to CBC by the Punjabi broadcasters about the little old lady who followed hockey as it was one of the few things she could relate to because it was in Punjabi.

Mike, this should be required viewing for the Argo marketers (start at 5:08 if you want to get to the story). Thanks for listening.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPY-jr7M32s

[bannedforlife]

I can't remember if I saw it here but there is a fine line between constant blaring music and non stop jabbering by the PA announcer. They say young people like it and older folks hate it but one thing is for certain, fans can't be engaged to be loud organically if they have to be constantly prompted or if there is non stop, non relevant noise going on.

[bannedforlife]

And while I'm droning on, I think every piece of Argo merchandise or branding should contain Pull Together and EST 1873. Just like Coca-Cola (Delicious and Refreshing). While it may not be relevant to younger generations it definitely tacitly imprints a stability and that's always good.

[Neely2005]

And while I'm droning on, I think every piece of Argo merchandise or branding should contain Pull Together and EST 1873. Just like Coca-Cola (Delicious and Refreshing). While it may not be relevant to younger generations it definitely tacitly imprints a stability and that's always good.

Yeah I think that the Argonauts really need to emphasize that they're the oldest Toronto team and the oldest professional sports franchise in North America.

[bannedforlife]

Yeah I think that the Argonauts really need to emphasize that they're the oldest Toronto team and the oldest professional sports franchise in North America.Definitely a point of pride and bragging interest that should be used more if not constantly.

[Neely2005]

Some good cross-promotion from MLSE:

https://torontosun.com/sports/football/cfl/toronto-argonauts/argos-show-support-for-mlse-brethren-raptors

[Neely2005]

More cross-promotion:

https://3downnation.com/2019/05/31/argos-trying-to-put-wind-in-their-sails-from-raptors-run-to-the-nba-finals/

[AngeloV]

More cross-promotion:

https://3downnation.com/2019/05/31/argos-trying-to-put-wind-in-their-sails-from-raptors-run-to-the-nba-finals/

Good to see. It would be awesome if the cross promoting included Raptors players at a future Argos game. Announcing that they are honouring a great Raptors season sure couldn't hurt.

[Wobbler]

Or maybe bring some Leafs players to a game and give them a chance to apologize?

[bannedforlife]

Any news out there as to what the Argos are doing to put more AIS (asses in seats).

[dmont]

I'm guessing the plan was always to wait until the end of the Leafs and Raptors seasons. Who could've predicted the Raptors would go all the way?

Still a good plan. Dont want any big announcements drowned out by Raptor fever.

[bannedforlife]

I'm guessing the plan was always to wait until the end of the Leafs and Raptors seasons. Who could've predicted the Raptors would go all the way?

Still a good plan. Dont want any big announcements drowned out by Raptor fever.I guess I had read that earlier in the thread but seeing as I have ZERO interest in the Raps and the Leafs have been gone for a long time, I was just hoping there's be a few tidbits out there.

[Neely2005]

Large ads for the Home Opener & the Bobble Head giveaway in the Toronto Sun today.

[Neely2005]

Large ads for the Home Opener & the Bobble Head giveaway in the Toronto Sun today.

Just heard an Ad for the Home Opener and Bobble Head giveaway on Newstalk 1010 (CFRB)

[paulwoods13]

Large ads for the Home Opener & the Bobble Head giveaway in the Toronto Sun today.

Also full-page ad in the Star (as well as front page of the Sun).

[Neely2005]

Also full-page ad in the Star (as well as front page of the Sun).

Glad to hear that. Hopefully we're finally done with this Argonauts don't advertise/market narrative.

[timlb01]

Article in the Sun says we are close to a sell out. I would assume that would be with upper east stands empty.

[argolio]

The Argos should hold a Raptors parade every home game. 15 minutes, not five hours!

[Neely2005]

Argos RB takes a walk on the ‘Wilder’ side:

https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2019/07/10/argos-rb-takes-a-walk-on-the-wilder-side/

[gilthethrill]

Argos RB takes a walk on the ‘Wilder’ side:

https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2019/07/10/argos-rb-takes-a-walk-on-the-wilder-side/

Nice glimpse of Lamport Field....the porta potties were a nice touch for the Argos new home.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[bannedforlife]

Argo marketing, what's going on? What are some of the visions to get this organization back to where it should be. Is there a ten year plan, five year plan, what is in the works?

[Neely2005]

Argo marketing, what's going on? What are some of the visions to get this organization back to where it should be. Is there a ten year plan, five year plan, what is in the works?

7 pages worth of examples in This Thread.
:-)

[Argofan_1000]

7 pages worth of examples in This Thread.
:-)

problem is the team itself doesn't cooperate

[1971GreyCup]

Sadly, this year’s performance provides a massive headwind for attracting attendance in the GTA.

[Argo57]

Sadly, this year’s performance provides a massive headwind for attracting attendance in the GTA.

Agreed.

[Ron]

The team is off to it's worst start since 1993. To me that's no co-incidence.

So for a promotion next game the team should give every fan a free Ham. Maybe that'll lift the curse.

[Neely2005]

Sadly, this year’s performance provides a massive headwind for attracting attendance in the GTA.

Not just this year. We haven't had back to back winning regular seasons since 2006 & 2007. Tough to attract fans when you're always losing.

[Treblecharger1]

Not just this year. We haven't had back to back winning regular seasons since 2006 & 2007. Tough to attract fans when you're always losing.

You could really make an argument that the last truly great teams we have had in this marketplace was in 1996 and 1997. We have got pretty lucky in 2004, 2012 and 2017 to win those Grey Cups. In postive news our owners are now valued at 5.5 Billion dollars and can sustain this ship for us.

[AngeloV]

You could really make an argument that the last truly great teams we have had in this marketplace was in 1996 and 1997. We have got pretty lucky in 2004, 2012 and 2017 to win those Grey Cups. In postive news our owners are now valued at 5.5 Billion dollars and can sustain this ship for us.

They were a pretty good team over a 5 year stretch from 2003-2007. A grey cup in 2004 and first place in 05 and 07, albeit with upset losses at home in the Eastern Final.

[Topshelf]

According to the Athletic article, Manning seems to think multiple CNE games is the answer.
Unless Hamilton is willing to move the labour day game to toronto, that means just 1 additional date as CNE runs 3 weekends.
Can't hurt, but its low hanging fruit.

[Neely2005]

According to the Athletic article, Manning seems to think multiple CNE games is the answer.
Unless Hamilton is willing to move the labour day game to toronto, that means just 1 additional date as CNE runs 3 weekends.
Can't hurt, but its low hanging fruit.

We had 2 CNE games in our first year at BMO Field, I'm not sure how effective it was.

[Mightygoose]

Not exact numbers but the 2 CNE games in 2016 did about 15K on the Saturday and over 17K on the Wednesday. The Wednesday game had a free ticket offer through STHs, likley other places too.

2017 the CNE game did about 16,500 and last year over 18K. So multiple CNE date did less.

Curious to see the context in the article on what Manning said, if he feels that will be the ultimate solution then he probably not focused enough by wearing 2 hats to put enough of a plan together to rebuild the brand.

[paulwoods13]

Not exact numbers but the 2 CNE games in 2016 did about 15K on the Saturday and over 17K on the Wednesday. The Wednesday game had a free ticket offer through STHs, likley other places too.

2017 the CNE game did about 16,500 and last year over 18K. So multiple CNE date did less.

Curious to see the context in the article on what Manning said, if he feels that will be the ultimate solution then he probably not focused enough by wearing 2 hats to put enough of a plan together to rebuild the brand.

The story does not say he sees it as "the ultimate solution."

[Mightygoose]

The story does not say he sees it as "the ultimate solution."

OK. I don't have an Athletic subscription so curious to know what he did say. Was it even about the Business of the Argos?

Any recap would be great - thanks!

[Scooter McCray]

The story does not say he sees it as "the ultimate solution."No but 2 1/2 years into MLSE ownership and Manning at the helm musing about 2 CNE games concerns me that there is no 10 year or 5 year plan or 1 year plan to rebuild this once proud brand in Toronto. What we have got from Manning so far has been close off section of stadium and maybe have 2 cne games. I don't blame him - he's simply not interested and his passion lies elsewhere. MLSE if they cared to run their football team as they do each of their other teams should have appointed a full time CEO of the Argos and it should have been and should still be Michael Clemons.

[paulwoods13]

OK. I don't have an Athletic subscription so curious to know what he did say. Was it even about the Business of the Argos?

Any recap would be great - thanks!

As a matter of principle, I can't do that. It costs money to produce journalism, and the Athletic has made the sensible choice to have people pay a share of that cost. A subscription is very inexpensive, and well worth it.

[Mightygoose]

As a matter of principle, I can't do that. It costs money to produce journalism, and the Athletic has made the sensible choice to have people pay a share of that cost. A subscription is very inexpensive, and well worth it.

Understood, but I will stay with my opinion on this matter.

That being management wearing multiple hats is only a stop gap measure, it's fine for a year or two as they have severace costs with the old admin, but they'll need one person I charge with a team under him/her to give the team a better focus.

[Argofan_1000]

Athletic doesn't support my team very well so I am out.

NCAA has produced more football players then all the other sports COMBINED! but the Athletic still looks down on their ability when they find their way north. CFL only drafts or brings in a few and the NFL drafts 256 out of 16500 graduating every year plus Usports football has almost has as many playing football as there are Major Jr. A hockey players every year. Athletic dovotes nothing to us. I am not paying for this. I don't even want it for free. What the CFL doesn't have is American money so it becomes minor league in their eyes.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Understood, but I will stay with my opinion on this matter.

That being management wearing multiple hats is only a stop gap measure, it's fine for a year or two as they have severace costs with the old admin, but they'll need one person I charge with a team under him/her to give the team a better focus.

The article did mention that Mr.Manning is trying to pursue a Grey Cup bid in the near future.The comments section for the article was lit up with the usual TFC toxicity.






Athletic doesn't support my team very well so I am out.

NCAA has produced more football players then all the other sports COMBINED! but the Athletic still looks down on their ability when they find their way north. CFL only drafts or brings in a few and the NFL drafts 256 out of 16500 graduating every year plus Usports football has almost has as many playing football as there are Major Jr. A hockey players every year. Athletic dovotes nothing to us. I am not paying for this. I don't even want it for free. What the CFL doesn't have is American money so it becomes minor league in their eyes.

The Editor-in-chief Jame Mirtle is no friend of the CFL.

[bannedforlife]

No but 2 1/2 years into MLSE ownership and Manning at the helm musing about 2 CNE games concerns me that there is no 10 year or 5 year plan or 1 year plan to rebuild this once proud brand in Toronto.I mentioned that earlier and was told to reread the thread (which I have yet to do) but about all I can recall is $5 beers which doesn't say much for either my memory or what the campaign (if any) is about.

No one can tell me that in an area of five million plus you can't get 25k people out to a game. The CFL is closer to the NFL in talent than MLS is to the EPL, so my question is does anyone know what happened, where is the disconnect and I'm not buying the ancient blackout excuse and I'm not really buying the "it'll take ten years to rebuild" routine. I'm not buying it that "it isn't the best" argument because TFC can draw an audience. I've seen fast turnarounds in many different things but this is the one case where a very long term rebuild might be necessary but exactly what is taking place to further that end?

Who are they targeting, are the millennials a lost cause and are they targeting the generations beyond them. Why and how did Hamilton and especially Ottawa make a reconnect and when I watch Montreal I see lots of engaged young fans in a city where losing actually seems to adversely affect attendance moreso than other places (especially over those many years)

Why is Toronto so different than Ottawa where the reconnect was so quick

Found an article from a few years ago (https://www.torontomike.com/2016/07/toronto_argos_attendance_problem.html)that touches on many "excuses" in the comments section. Was Braley's forced starvation of the Argos, really the tipping point?. It seemed even in the Skydome with what we thought was low attendance (which was even cyclical over the years) the team had a much better perception than now.

So what I want to know is, with this ownership, which is likely the best the Argos will ever have, what are the plans? Why did Rogers sign on? The conspiracist in me can only come up with negative reasons for that last question.

[bannedforlife]

The article did mention that Mr.Manning is trying to pursue a Grey Cup bid in the near future.The comments section for the article was lit up with the usual TFC toxicity.Which is why it shouldn't be condoned here by those pretending they are "fans"

[Shatto]

It has been reported, BMO stadium will become more Argo friendly over the next 5-6 years. This is the team's 4th year at BMO and over the next 5-6 years it will become more Argo friendly---What! So, a 10 year project?

This city owned property, should have become completely Argo friendly in its first year. Difficult for casual fans to get too interested in supporting the team when its owners need a 10 plan to make our home stadium "Argo Friendly"

While I'm on a roll, have to agree with Mightygoose, that the team needs a full time president who lives, dies and is evaluated solely, on how successful this team becomes. That is successful on the field and successful at the gate.

Excuse the rant but really, 10 years to make BMO more Argo friendly. That should have been MLSE's priority from day one.

[Ron]

No but 2 1/2 years into MLSE ownership and Manning at the helm musing about 2 CNE games concerns me that there is no 10 year or 5 year plan or 1 year plan to rebuild this once proud brand in Toronto.

At the fan meeting before the season last year Manning said it'll take 10 years to fix the brand. he also said they were hoping to increase attendance 1500 per season. He said it'll take time.

Now. If fans can't remember when brass says stuff. (It'll probably be on here early last year from those who attended) Why on earth do people get concerned there is no plan when the team has already stated there is a plan. Hogie on this site has repeatedly said they're working hard on it.

I can also see why the team doesn't tell all of their plan (like any team anywhere tells their whole plans) to fans that either won't recall what they say a year later and would probably bitch about anything they did say. For me I take them at their word and will see how things are in 10 years (*8.5 more actually) Because until the 10 years pass this is all just hysterical pablum filling space in a closed lid cereal bowl..

[Tricky Dick]

The CFL is closer to the NFL in talent than MLS is to the EPL

Telling it like it is, even if the soccer tribe won't accept the truth.

[Neely2005]

I mentioned that earlier and was told to reread the thread (which I have yet to do) but about all I can recall is $5 beers which doesn't say much for either my memory or what the campaign (if any) is about.

No one can tell me that in an area of five million plus you can't get 25k people out to a game. The CFL is closer to the NFL in talent than MLS is to the EPL, so my question is does anyone know what happened, where is the disconnect and I'm not buying the ancient blackout excuse and I'm not really buying the "it'll take ten years to rebuild" routine. I'm not buying it that "it isn't the best" argument because TFC can draw an audience. I've seen fast turnarounds in many different things but this is the one case where a very long term rebuild might be necessary but exactly what is taking place to further that end?

Who are they targeting, are the millennials a lost cause and are they targeting the generations beyond them. Why and how did Hamilton and especially Ottawa make a reconnect and when I watch Montreal I see lots of engaged young fans in a city where losing actually seems to adversely affect attendance moreso than other places (especially over those many years)

Why is Toronto so different than Ottawa where the reconnect was so quick

Found an article from a few years ago (https://www.torontomike.com/2016/07/toronto_argos_attendance_problem.html)that touches on many "excuses" in the comments section. Was Braley's forced starvation of the Argos, really the tipping point?. It seemed even in the Skydome with what we thought was low attendance (which was even cyclical over the years) the team had a much better perception than now.

So what I want to know is, with this ownership, which is likely the best the Argos will ever have, what are the plans? Why did Rogers sign on? The conspiracist in me can only come up with negative reasons for that last question.

My analysis:

TFC can draw fans to the stadium but gets terrible TV Ratings.

The Argonauts can't draw fans to the stadium but get good TV Ratings.

TFC fans tend to be younger and don't watch as much traditional TV.

Argonauts fans tend to be older and don't want to get off the couch.

More TFC fans seem to live downtown and take transit to BMO Field.

More Argonauts fans seem to live outside the downtown core and drive to BMO Field.

TFC plays in a legue with more teams and US teams. The Argonauts do not. Sadly this seems to be very important to many Canadians, more so Torontonians.

TFC can spend to sign big name players which lends legitimacy. The Argonauts can not.

TFC can have a large payroll. The Argonauts can not. Sadly this seems to be important to some Canadians. More so Torontonians.

Soccer is easy to understand and is familiar to new Canadians.

Football is difficult to understand and is unfamiliar to new Canadians. On top of that the CFL uses very different rules than the NFL.

[AngeloV]

My analysis:

TFC can draw fans to the stadium but gets terrible TV Ratings.

The Argonauts can't draw fans to the stadium but get good TV Ratings.

TFC fans tend to be younger and don't watch as much traditional TV.

Argonauts fans tend to be older and don't want to get off the couch.

More TFC fans seem to live downtown and take transit to BMO Field.

More Argonauts fans seem to live outside the downtown core and drive to BMO Field.

TFC plays in a legue with more teams and US teams. The Argonauts do not. Sadly this seems to be very important to many Canadians, more so Torontonians.

TFC can spend to sign big name players which lends legitimacy. The Argonauts can not.

TFC can have a large payroll. The Argonauts can not. Sadly this seems to be important to some Canadians. More so Torontonians.

Soccer is easy to understand and is familiar to new Canadians.

Football is difficult to understand and is unfamiliar to new Canadians. On top of that the CFL uses very different rules than the NFL.

I can't disagree with any of that.

Argos really need to get out to the corporate world and sell as many season tickets as possible. They really need to go to the basics, and go door to door if necessary the way the late Bobby Ackles did in Vancouver. Prior to his passing, the Lions were making huge strides towards getting attendance towards 30k. He was a face that went door to door, and was well respected, so it meant something.

Sometimes old school ways of selling are still the best.

[1971GreyCup]

I can't disagree with any of that.

Argos really need to get out to the corporate world and sell as many season tickets as possible. They really need to go to the basics, and go door to door if necessary the way the late Bobby Ackles did in Vancouver. Prior to his passing, the Lions were making huge strides towards getting attendance towards 30k. He was a face that went door to door, and was well respected, so it meant something.

Sometimes old school ways of selling are still the best..

Totally agree. I think the shrink down to the smallest, most cost effective survival mode time is over. Time to think about growth. There’s nothing compared to “sweat” equity. Person on the top has to love this franchise!

[paulwoods13]

At the fan meeting before the season last year Manning said it'll take 10 years to fix the brand. he also said they were hoping to increase attendance 1500 per season. He said it'll take time.

Now. If fans can't remember when brass says stuff. (It'll probably be on here early last year from those who attended) Why on earth do people get concerned there is no plan when the team has already stated there is a plan. Hogie on this site has repeatedly said they're working hard on it.

I can also see why the team doesn't tell all of their plan (like any team anywhere tells their whole plans) to fans that either won't recall what they say a year later and would probably bitch about anything they did say. For me I take them at their word and will see how things are in 10 years (*8.5 more actually) Because until the 10 years pass this is all just hysterical pablum filling space in a closed lid cereal bowl..

This.^^^^^

The ability of some fans to jump to conclusions ("lack of a plan," "lack of passion/caring," etc. -- in some cases based on articles they haven't even read) can never be underestimated.

[Topshelf]

Media cutbacks have played a role i imagine.
Growing up, the star had coverage of local high school football
Even u sports, there was some hype when jesse lumsden was putting up numbers at Mac, and entered the cfl.
Now i couldnt tell you one player at that level.

Not that the Argos can fund local sports media coverage, just saying that i imagine it factors into the lack of support we have for more localised sports, cfl, usports, ohl etc.

Its natural to try to compare argos crowds with tfc, but if it were that easy, mlse would have accomplished it already

[bannedforlife]

At the fan meeting before the season last year Manning said it'll take 10 years to fix the brand. he also said they were hoping to increase attendance 1500 per season. He said it'll take time.

Now. If fans can't remember when brass says stuff. (It'll probably be on here early last year from those who attended) Why on earth do people get concerned there is no plan when the team has already stated there is a plan. Hogie on this site has repeatedly said they're working hard on it.

I can also see why the team doesn't tell all of their plan (like any team anywhere tells their whole plans) to fans that either won't recall what they say a year later and would probably bitch about anything they did say. For me I take them at their word and will see how things are in 10 years (*8.5 more actually) Because until the 10 years pass this is all just hysterical pablum filling space in a closed lid cereal bowl..Sorry, not buying any of that. This isn't the %!@^*& Manhattan Project, throw me a bone that I can chew on so I can help spread the Gospel. If the plan is saying it will take 10 years and they hope to increase 1500 per season that isn't something I think I could sell to a sponsor without a little bit of "how" involved. I ain't into fiddling while Rome is burning.

Some of you guys can put out your "hysterical pablum" insults all you want but sometimes people have to held to the fire a little bit, it shows we still care. Wasn't that why the Leafs were so terrible for so long, because the fans filled the coffers and never complained.

Sounds like the plan is to say there is a plan and "we're working hard on it". This so called plan should be ready and operating, they should have been in planning stages before the sale.

Why I am harping on this, is because a strong Argos will be the lynchpin to a strong CFL. I've posted lots of articles so I think I am fairly well read on the subject and despite what some of you might think I am not an impatient person, I just want to see a path, I don't need to see every house and business on the way.

[Mike Hogan]

Glad you’re interested in what we’re doing from a marketing perspective. I’m not going to go into minute detail, but here are some examples of what we’re doing.

If the league is going to thrive, we have to get the attention of the next generation. Our pre-season game was marketed almost exclusively to students and I believe we had over 5,300 kids at Varsity.

We’ve also partnered with the Toronto Flag Football League. Every team uniform at every level is adorned with a giant Argos logo on the front. We want to entice kids with an interest in the sport to become more Argo friendly. This is hopefully a long-term arrangement.

We’re also giving 2,000 Argo logoed youth footballs out to kids to encourage them to play the game. Again, we’re trying to cultivate a younger fan base.

These are a handful of examples of one theme with several streams from there.

We’re targeting groups of new Canadians as well. Last game we had a Brazilian Heritage Night where over 300 people came for a pre-game party and then the game. For many it was their first CFL experience and they enjoyed the outing. Many more of these group nights are planned.

Our Celebration Day ticketing blitz was wildly successful and surpassed a rather lofty goal.

This is a very small sample of what we're doing. We have a lot of balls in the air and a team of people hard at work to attract new fans to our incredibly loyal base. Just because we’re not advertising our marketing plans on billboards doesn’t mean we’re not working hard at bringing aboard new fans, then most importantly, making the game-day experience a ton of fun so they come back.

Now, how many tickets can I put you down for?

[BATKINSON001]

Glad you’re interested in what we’re doing from a marketing perspective. I’m not going to go into minute detail, but here are some examples of what we’re doing.

If the league is going to thrive, we have to get the attention of the next generation. Our pre-season game was marketed almost exclusively to students and I believe we had over 5,300 kids at Varsity.

We’ve also partnered with the Toronto Flag Football League. Every team uniform at every level is adorned with a giant Argos logo on the front. We want to entice kids with an interest in the sport to become more Argo friendly. This is hopefully a long-term arrangement.

We’re also giving 2,000 Argo logoed youth footballs out to kids to encourage them to play the game. Again, we’re trying to cultivate a younger fan base.

These are a handful of examples of one theme with several streams from there.

We’re targeting groups of new Canadians as well. Last game we had a Brazilian Heritage Night where over 300 people came for a pre-game party and then the game. For many it was their first CFL experience and they enjoyed the outing. Many more of these group nights are planned.

Our Celebration Day ticketing blitz was wildly successful and surpassed a rather lofty goal.

This is a very small sample of what we're doing. We have a lot of balls in the air and a team of people hard at work to attract new fans to our incredibly loyal base. Just because we’re not advertising our marketing plans on billboards doesn’t mean we’re not working hard at bringing aboard new fans, then most importantly, making the game-day experience a ton of fun so they come back.

Now, how many tickets can I put you down for?

Well said Mike!

[bannedforlife]

Glad you’re interested in what we’re doing from a marketing perspective. I’m not going to go into minute detail, but here are some examples of what we’re doing. Now, how many tickets can I put you down for?I am interested because one piece of paper I have is a post grad associate's degree in marketing. (smile) Thanks for the post, that is what I've been asking about. I don't expect you to go into minute detail about every bit of strategy, but as a start, I think we can have some fun sinking our teeth into the examples you've given.

As for tickets, the Argos aren't really my favourite team and I'm about 1000 miles away but I find them one of the more interesting teams in what I think has become a strangely hostile market. How you could reverse that I find very compelling.

I also find myself one of those strange people that the CFL has, in that they love the league. Most leagues aren't really like that but many CFL fans love the league itself.

I would like to ask some questions and hopefully get a few answers. As an example, recently, a local very worthwhile charity asked me about my company helping them. I thought for sure my corporate HQ would totally get behind it. Have to say I was shocked when they didn't but at least they gave an answer that they didn't want to get involved at this time. That's better than being ignored and I accepted their answer.

Be prepared, discussion questions to follow, I'm going to go over your post one point at a time (smile)

[Mike Hogan]

I'm really happy you're interested enough to ask and would LOVE to get into other ideas publicly, but I don't feel I'm at liberty to go much further than I already have.

Is there a short term plan? Yes.

Is there a long term plan? Yes.

Is the goal line constantly moving and are we coming up with new ideas on an ongoing basis? Yes.

I had a salesperson sit down at my desk for about an hour today discussing about a million different Argo-oriented topics, then spitballing about other possibilities going forward. We're going out after work one day next week and going to a bar because we all know that's where the best ideas come from. LOL We're hoping a solid number of people from work show up to kick things around on an informal basis.

We have a lot of work to do, we're well aware of that. If there was an an easy solution we'd have done it. So would the previous ownership group, so would Braley, so would Sokolowski and Cynamon, so would Sherwood Schwartz etc., etc., etc.

One of the things we KNEW we had to do was improve the game-day experience. I even came on here and asked for suggestions and received many. All of those suggestions were seen by Sr. Management, many were implemented. We've improved the conditions for the players, including a more than two-million dollar investment in a new playing surface. Many of the improvements are things the public wouldn't know about, but the players sure do and that's known around the league. These will help attract free agents down the road.

I'm glad you're interested in the health of the franchise from afar. I had a friend in Edmonton, a long-time season ticket holder there, buy an Argo season ticket this year to show his support. He's coming here for the Eskimos game. If he can buy, so can you. LOL

Seriously, it is a strange market. I don't know if it's a hostile market, or an apathetic market, and honestly I don't know which is worse, but I do know neither is ideal.

I also know it's going to be a long-term process, but I do know it's going to happen, and I do know that I want to be here when we sell out the current configuration for the first time. I know that I want to be here when we open up the east side upper deck for the first time. I know that I want to be here when we sell out the entire building for the first time, and you know what? That day is going to be ^(&(&^%*U* sweet and I hope everyone here stays around to celebrate with me.

Cheers.

[bannedforlife]

No, I'm not really looking for specific answers, more like discussion and blue skies type thinking. But I would like to get an answer, if I ask if you have been considering some things. Glad you are seeing this in the spirit it's been intended, and you're right, it will be an incredible day when BMO can be sold out for Canadian football.

It would really be great if you or another MLSE representative could keep tabs on this and help people like me spread the word. I show my support by spreading the good news about the CFL and I especially want to do that with the Argos.

[Mike Hogan]

No, I'm not really looking for specific answers, more like discussion and blue skies type thinking. But I would like to get an answer, if I ask if you have been considering some things. Glad you are seeing this in the spirit it's been intended, and you're right, it will be an incredible day when BMO can be sold out for Canadian football.

It would really be great if you or another MLSE representative could keep tabs on this and help people like me spread the word. I show my support by spreading the good news about the CFL and I especially want to do that with the Argos.

Keep tabs on what specifically?

[bannedforlife]

One of the things we KNEW we had to do was improve the game-day experience. I even came on here and asked for suggestions and received many. All of those suggestions were seen by Sr. Management, many were implemented.

Seriously, it is a strange market. I don't know if it's a hostile market, or an apathetic market, and honestly I don't know which is worse, but I do know neither is ideal.Jeff Hunt had some interesting ideas about some of the things you posted. "Learned from Renegades' mistakes that if there were ten reasons why the team failed five had to do with the stadium" Frank Clair Stadium (FCS) did not deliver a pro sports experience ie concessions lineups, washrooms, poor sound system, bench seating. Hopefully BMO at least does not have those issues.

He also commented that apathy, which you always hear is the worst thing, may not be bad at all. Because of the previous failures of the RR, an apathy and lack of knowledge had set in with the younger generation. To that end they really had no bad preconceptions, so the team could basically market afresh. Apparently he asked his own kids and they didn't know anything about the RR. Obviously in that market their approach has been wildly successful.

[bannedforlife]

Keep tabs on what specifically?This thread, hear what the folks have to say, which you have already done and hopefully will continue to do so.

[ArgoGabe22]

Keep tabs on what specifically?

Don't worry too much Mike. One user does not represent the entire fan base, nor this forum.

[Mike Hogan]

This thread, hear what the folks have to say, which you have already done and hopefully will continue to do so.

I like to keep tabs on this site because it gives me at least a snapshot as to what some of the diehard fans are thinking. I can't sit in the stands during a game, so I honestly appreciate any/all feedback here because it allows me to do my job better, and to learn more about what is and isn't working from the perspective of someone in the seats.

I'd like to think I've been accessible to Argo fans here and all across social media, and will continue to be.

Think about this, people who frequent this site have direct access to someone who sits in Sr. Management meetings and is more than happy to listen to and act upon complaints/suggestions. How many fan bases can say that? In my eyes it shows we're all about our fans, which I can guarantee you is absolutely true.

[bannedforlife]

Don't worry too much Mike. One user does not represent the entire fan base, nor this forum.I think you're missing the point

[ArgoGabe22]

I think you're missing the point

I think you’ve been missing Mike’s points.

[Treblecharger1]

Everything Mike said is extremely accurate. I have personally worked with many people in that front office and I can tell you these people CARE. They have a vision and are willing to sustain losses in order to achieve that long term goal. It sure beats the days when C&S had myself and some the other ticket office staff parade around Downtown Toronto just handing out tickets to anyone and everyone. Patience my friends the good times are going to come back :)

[bannedforlife]

I think you’ve been missing Mike’s points.What point am I missing? And frankly I resent my keen interest in this side of the business being seen as something sinister.

As much as I am loathe to say, TFC has a much more engaged fanbase for all aspects of their team. Is there something wrong in me asking a few questions and showing a little passion for the future of the team. If my words have been misconstrued by people as challenging management they were not meant like that. But I think any TFC fan wouldn't be satisfied with vague responses.

I have never criticized anything Mike said and truthfully want to explore each initiative that he posted. Simple as that.

[ArgoGabe22]

What point am I missing? And frankly I resent my keen interest in this side of the business being seen as something sinister.

As much as I am loathe to say, TFC has a much more engaged fanbase for all aspects of their team. Is there something wrong in me asking a few questions and showing a little passion for the future of the team. If my words have been misconstrued by people as challenging management they were not meant like that. But I think any TFC fan wouldn't be satisfied with vague responses.

I have never criticized anything Mike said and truthfully want to explore each initiative that he posted. Simple as that.

Hoagie takes the time to read this forum, asks for our feedback, gives us updates on what will be implemented going forward. I don't think I have ever witnessed such engagement between a fan forum and someone with ties to upper management. This is the closest we got in my lifetime, confirming that posts are being read. And instead of recognizing this fact, being thankful (and respectful), we choose to question Mike, ask for more than he can really give us or just complain. What I fear is that the communication may stop because some people will choose to just continue criticizing and being negative rather than being thankful for Mike taking his time to engage with us. He, nor anyone from the team, has to do this and they could fairly well just stop. This is why I make it clear, that your posts does not represent the fan base or this forum. Especially the fact, "Argos aren't my first choice and I don't really support the team". And yes, there are subtle remarks within your posts that aren't exactly "innocent" (ex. vague responses).

[bannedforlife]

You win, I give up.

[Topshelf]

Its unfair to the argos fans that we always have the tfc comparison.
The team doesnt care. The media dont care. We are the only ones that care.
Argos and tfc ownership are the same and they likely have the exact same teams working on marketing and ticketing.
This is a league wide issue.
The TSN tv numbers really hide the fact that this league is dying at the gate. Lots of empty seats in calgary tonight.
Maybe mcMahon stadium is too big? But at one point it was probably filled frequently.
The league needs some marketable stars. Until tonight i had never heard of the calgary qb, and likely by tommorow i'll have forgotten his name.
I challenge you to ask your friends to list cfl qbs, then list nfl qbs.

[Neely2005]

Honestly it's Almost at the point where it doesn't matter what they do. Who would want to come watch this team? All they do is lose regular season games. As I've said previously they haven't had back to back winning regular seasons since 2006 & 2007.

[Bosco]

Honestly it's Almost at the point where it doesn't matter what they do. Who would want to come watch this team? All they do is lose regular season games. As I've said previously they haven't had back to back winning regular seasons since 2006 & 2007.

they won 2 grey cups in the last 8 years.. and won just 2 years ago... having back-to-back winning seasons won't make a difference if winning the grey cup made no difference.

the Jays missed the playoffs 20 years straight and would still get at least 25k into the stadium.

Toronto just doesn't care

[Neely2005]

they won 2 grey cups in the last 8 years.. and won just 2 years ago... having back-to-back winning seasons won't make a difference if winning the grey cup made no difference.

the Jays missed the playoffs 20 years straight and would still get at least 25k into the stadium.

Toronto just doesn't care

That's great but that doesn't help home attendance when you can't win regular season home games.

Have you seen all the empty seats at Jays games this season? Guaranteed there have been games with less than 10,000 in actual attendance this season.

[1971GreyCup]

That's great but that doesn't help home attendance when you can't win regular season home games.

Have you seen all the empty seats at Jays games this season? Guaranteed there have been games with less than 10,000 in actual attendance this season.

It could be argued that this team is ruining attendance at the “away” games. In the English Premiership League the teams charge two tier prices. High prices for games against the top teams and low prices against the rest of the league.

[1971GreyCup]

Next home game start YouTube sensation @destroying. Social media night. About 1.5 million young people will know the Argos are playing. My son’s friends don’t follow the Argos but do follow @destroying.

[Neely2005]

It could be argued that this team is ruining attendance at the “away” games. In the English Premiership League the teams charge two tier prices. High prices for games against the top teams and low prices against the rest of the league.

The Jays do this as well. I believe that the leafs and Raptors do too. Also higher prices for weekend games and lower prices for weekday games.

[Neely2005]

Next home game start YouTube sensation @destroying. Social media night. About 1.5 million young people will know the Argos are playing. My son’s friends don’t follow the Argos but do follow @destroying.

At this point you may as well. If we don't win our next game our season will pretty much be over.

[gilthethrill]

Next home game start YouTube sensation @destroying. Social media night. About 1.5 million young people will know the Argos are playing. My son’s friends don’t follow the Argos but do follow @destroying.

Screw that. Crapigna can kick circles around Tennis Fan. There have been enough puzzling decisions made by the staff already this season. It's a nice story but he is not deserving a roster spot.

[mchesher03]

the real question is why Crapigna was cut in the first place and Drew Brown was kept, but i digress.

[1971GreyCup]

You don’t think they could find a roster spot for a couple thousand seats in the stands? ? How about the idea of putting a media sensation in front of the GTA fans for nothing. We’ve paid millions for that kind of media exposure in the past. Unless you’re happy with the status quo, you’d better start thinking out of the box. Or saying it’s a long term solution.

[Neely2005]

You don’t think they could find a roster spot for a couple thousand seats in the stands? ? How about the idea of putting a media sensation in front of the GTA fans for nothing. We’ve paid millions for that kind of media exposure in the past. Unless you’re happy with the status quo, you’d better start thinking out of the box. Or saying it’s a long term solution.

If we keep losing you may as well play him. People certainly aren't going to be lining up to buy tickets to watch a winless team.

[1971GreyCup]

The owner of the Chicago White Sox was famous for marketing when he had a poor team. Go to any minor league baseball team and you’ll see amazing marketing. Make it fun!

How far has professional/minor league sports taking the social media theme to the game? I don’t know, put a GoPro camera on his helmet and live mike him??

Did the Titanic Captain roll out a 10 year business plan?

[gilthethrill]

You don’t think they could find a roster spot for a couple thousand seats in the stands? ? How about the idea of putting a media sensation in front of the GTA fans for nothing. We’ve paid millions for that kind of media exposure in the past. Unless you’re happy with the status quo, you’d better start thinking out of the box. Or saying it’s a long term solution.

I just don't believe a backup kicker will increase attendance. No, I am not happy with the status quo, but I want the best players on the field. I believe MLSE is working hard behind the scenes and the Argos attendance will increase over time.

[paulwoods13]

I agree it is unlikely a kicker, no matter how much of a social media following he has, would put many bodies in the seats. Dressing him would not suddenly make the Argos a cool thing to spend money on for thousands or even hundreds of young people in this market, IMO. And having mgmt. dictate personnel decisions for the sake of marketing is a dangerous game. As it is, I think it's possible Wilder is still the starting RB because he's the most "marketable" guy on the roster, not because he's appreciably better than Burks.

[1971GreyCup]

I just don't believe a backup kicker will increase attendance. No, I am not happy with the status quo, but I want the best players on the field. I believe MLSE is working hard behind the scenes and the Argos attendance will increase over time.

That statement is a valid one for hardcore fans. Have we limited ourselves to marketing to the hardcore fans in the GTA? I didn’t say he would even kick. Didn’t Joe Theismann get on a NFL roster running back kickoffs? He is on the PR for a reason.

I think the time will come we he loses interest in this opportunity. His YouTube income makes him the highest paid Argo player. He isn’t here for the PR salary. If there’s a plan to monetize his game for MLSE do it. If there isn’t, cut him loose.

[Neely2005]

I agree it is unlikely a kicker, no matter how much of a social media following he has, would put many bodies in the seats. Dressing him would not suddenly make the Argos a cool thing to spend money on for thousands or even hundreds of young people in this market, IMO. And having mgmt. dictate personnel decisions for the sake of marketing is a dangerous game. As it is, I think it's possible Wilder is still the starting RB because he's the most "marketable" guy on the roster, not because he's appreciably better than Burks.

It certainly isn't going to hurt and it will definitely give the Argonauts more publicity.

[1971GreyCup]

Argos are now retweeting young fans buying @destroying’s online merchandise. His merchandise line looks more comprehensive than the team he works for.

TorontoArgos liked:
“Well the @TorontoArgos may have lost but at least we got to rep that @Deestroying merch! shopdeestroying.com“

[paulwoods13]

It certainly isn't going to hurt and it will definitely give the Argonauts more publicity.

This is a team that doesn't get much publicity of any kind now -- coverage once or twice a week on TSN, daily coverage from one newspaper, once-a-week coverage (roughly) from CP. That's about it. Any publicity bump from adding this guy to the roster would be short-lived, i.e. basically the run-up to his first game. If he kicked (or missed) a game-winning FG there would be a second bump. Is that going to turn his followers into short-term or long-term paying customers? I suppose anything's possible, but I would not build a business plan around the possibility.

[1971GreyCup]

I don’t think any of his fans follow MSM. He’d be reaching out to them directly. What harm could come from this?

[Neely2005]

This is a team that doesn't get much publicity of any kind now -- coverage once or twice a week on TSN, daily coverage from one newspaper, once-a-week coverage (roughly) from CP. That's about it. Any publicity bump from adding this guy to the roster would be short-lived, i.e. basically the run-up to his first game. If he kicked (or missed) a game-winning FG there would be a second bump. Is that going to turn his followers into short-term or long-term paying customers? I suppose anything's possible, but I would not build a business plan around the possibility.

Kids today don't watch TV or read newspapers. They consume content entirely differently. Who said anything about building a business plan around him? That's quite a leap you took there. This will give the Argonauts additional exposure to people that they aren't currently reaching. It is one small step that can only help. I don't understand why anyone would be arguing against this. It would only help the team to dress him.

[Neely2005]

I don’t think any of his fans follow MSM. He’d be reaching out to them directly. What harm could come from this?

A common complaint is that Argonauts fans are old white men and that we need to attract new fans from new And younger demographics. De La Haye does that.

It's obvious that many people here just don't understand how popular this guy is because he's totally outside of their world.

As I posted in the other Thread:


Not for this team. The Argonauts need all the help they can get to draw attention from his dempgraphic.

Here's an example:

Argonauts YouTube Channel
Created 2007
869,000+ Total Views

Deestroying YouTube Channel
Created 2005
179,000,000+ Total Views

[1971GreyCup]

At least try and tap into this phenom. MLSE has the resources to figure out how. YouTube night. Make a YouTube Video in the Shipyard and win a chance to make a video with the best??

Not since Anthony Davis came to Toronto was a talent underutilizes?? He cost $1 million in 1975 dollars. That $4.7 million today. We’re paying a PR salary.

Use in, or lose him. What else do the fans have to look forward to?

[paulwoods13]

Not since Anthony Davis come to Toronto was a talent underutilizes?? He cost $1 million in 1975 dollars. That $4.7 million today. We’re paying a PR salary.

If Anthony Davis is the standard for under-utilized marketing opportunities, we are really in trouble. A guy who wanted nothing to do with playing football, and was loathed by teammates.

[1971GreyCup]

If Anthony Davis is the standard for under-utilized marketing opportunities, we are really in trouble. A guy who wanted nothing to do with playing football, and was loathed by teammates.

Then let me be clearer, because you don’t seem to get it. The Argos used to pay very big bucks for marquee players. Doug Flutie included. Those days are long gone.

They are having a dreadful season and they have an entertainment phenomenon available virtually for free. Do you actually think it’s a bad idea to try and engage the youth and take advantage of this opportunity? It’s a league opportunity too.

Toronto and the CFL has lost the young demographic. Why not give it at least a shot?

Maybe you can offer some solutions since this idea is clearly not appealing to you.

I hope the 10 year plan works, because someone has to take my seat, because in 2029 it’s unlikely that I’ll be able to sit in it.

[Ron]

Kids today don't watch TV or read newspapers. They consume content entirely differently. Who said anything about building a business plan around him? That's quite a leap you took there. This will give the Argonauts additional exposure to people that they aren't currently reaching. It is one small step that can only help. I don't understand why anyone would be arguing against this. It would only help the team to dress him.

True.

On a somewhat related outside the box topic. I was watching some espn show on youtube (forget which one) and they were talking about how some pro sports teams are offering "millennial" tickets because millennial's like to roam around and not really sit anywhere. Then they have the option to upgrade to a seat if they want. Those teams don't care if a group of millennial's show up and leave after walking around for a hour or two.

Anyways ... where this relates to the Argos is that the Argos had a great setup for millennial's. Nice open standing area in the south endzone and a very popular large standing area in the north endzone. The north is no longer a selling point though with those stands there blocking the area.

[paulwoods13]

Then let me be clearer, because you don’t seem to get it. The Argos used to pay very big bucks for marquee players. Doug Flutie included. Those days are long gone.


I get that this kicker is not being paid a marquee salary. I don't see what that has to do with what Anthony Davis was paid 45 years ago. So I guess I still don't get it.


They are having a dreadful season and they have an entertainment phenomenon available virtually for free. Do you actually think it’s a bad idea to try and engage the youth and take advantage of this opportunity? It’s a league opportunity too.

Toronto and the CFL has lost the young demographic. Why not give it at least a shot?



Despite how many YouTube followers this guy has, I have yet to see any evidence that putting him on the roster would create an increase in ticket sales or lead to the creation of long-term customers. I don't know how many of his followers are in this market, but I imagine it's a fraction of the total. Even if all his followers got excited about him on the roster of a CFL team (which seems unlikely), how does that translate to business success for the Argonauts? If we're adding him solely because he's here and it seems like an idea worth a shot, that strikes me as no more sensible than throwing something/anything against the wall to see if it sticks. And I do see potential downside -- the guy turns out to be a bust, we lose a game because he's more interested in making videos than working on the craft of football, we lose a real kicker because we opened a roster spot for a gimmick, we become a laughingstock for trying something that turns out to be outlandishly short-sighted and stupid. Sure, maybe he turns out to be a capable kicker and good teammate, and maybe hundreds of thousands of plugged-in individuals are enthusiastic about that, and maybe a few thousand or even a few hundred of them start regularly buying Argo tickets and/or merchandise. Maybe all of that happens. It's possible. But I would not want the organization to do it unless they had a bit more confidence than "what have we got to lose?"

[paulwoods13]

True.

On a somewhat related outside the box topic. I was watching some espn show on youtube (forget which one) and they were talking about how some pro sports teams are offering "millennial" tickets because millennial's like to roam around and not really sit anywhere. Then they have the option to upgrade to a seat if they want. Those teams don't care if a group of millennial's show up and leave after walking around for a hour or two.

Anyways ... where this relates to the Argos is that the Argos had a great setup for millennial's. Nice open standing area in the south endzone and a very popular large standing area in the north endzone. The north is no longer a selling point though with those stands there blocking the area.

There's no doubt that standing room only/party sections are growing in appeal for a certain segment of potential customers. Hamilton and to a lesser extent some other CFL teams claim that lots of fans never go to their seats. The 2021 Grey Cup is being built around a standing-room party zone. So yes, the addition of moveable stands in the north end zone does indeed seem like an opportunity lost. But they do seem moveable, and maybe there will be a way to roll them in and out for future configurations of the stadium.

[1971GreyCup]

I get that this kicker is not being paid a marquee salary. I don't see what that has to do with what Anthony Davis was paid 45 years ago. So I guess I still don't get it.



Despite how many YouTube followers this guy has, I have yet to see any evidence that putting him on the roster would create an increase in ticket sales or lead to the creation of long-term customers. I don't know how many of his followers are in this market, but I imagine it's a fraction of the total. Even if all his followers got excited about him on the roster of a CFL team (which seems unlikely), how does that translate to business success for the Argonauts? If we're adding him solely because he's here and it seems like an idea worth a shot, that strikes me as no more sensible than throwing something/anything against the wall to see if it sticks. And I do see potential downside -- the guy turns out to be a bust, we lose a game because he's more interested in making videos than working on the craft of football, we lose a real kicker because we opened a roster spot for a gimmick, we become a laughingstock for trying something that turns out to be outlandishly short-sighted and stupid. Sure, maybe he turns out to be a capable kicker and good teammate, and maybe hundreds of thousands of plugged-in individuals are enthusiastic about that, and maybe a few thousand or even a few hundred of them start regularly buying Argo tickets and/or merchandise. Maybe all of that happens. It's possible. But I would not want the organization to do it unless they had a bit more confidence than "what have we got to lose?"

You succinctly made your case to not proceed with any type of social media campaign. Too many risks I guess.

I was just wondering, have you ever offered a proactive initiative on this site to put a halt to the decline in customers? Any new ideas to attract and keep different customers?

Supporting the status quo isn’t particularly new. Kind’ve reminds of the story of Dr. Lind who found the cure for scurvy and published his treatise in 1753. His innovation was adopted by the Royal Navy 42 years years later.

[ArgoGabe22]

Manziel didn’t create new CFL fans so how could a YouTube kicker? The fact that he’s a Youtuber means people like to watch online, so would his fans actually go to see him play in person? And are his fans even in the GTA?

[paulwoods13]

You succinctly made your case to not proceed with any type of social media campaign.

That's just a wee bit of a leap, but whatever.


I was just wondering, have you ever offered a proactive initiative on this site to put a halt to the decline in customers? Any new ideas to attract and keep different customers?

Supporting the status quo isn’t particularly new. Kind’ve reminds of the story of Dr. Lind who found the cure for scurvy and published his treatise in 1753. His innovation was adopted by the Royal Navy 42 years years later.

Feel free to review my post history and determine for yourself whether I have ever offered a proactive initiative to put a halt to the decline in customers, or merely support the status quo. I suspect you have already made that determination tho.

[Neely2005]

Manziel didn’t create new CFL fans so how could a YouTube kicker? The fact that he’s a Youtuber means people like to watch online, so would his fans actually go to see him play in person? And are his fans even in the GTA?

Watch his video where you see all the kids waiting for him @ BMO Field, around the 12 Minute Mark:

https://youtu.be/TPFTlGF0FOw

[ArgoGabe22]

Watch his video where you see all the kids waiting for him @ BMO Field, around the 12 Minute Mark:

https://youtu.be/TPFTlGF0FOw

I saw that BUT how many are there just to see him? I'm guessing a lot are there regardless with their football team. So how many tickets can this guy actually sell. Can his other fans even make a 3 hour commitment to live football or are they more invested in shortened condensed clips available whenever they choose to watch it? Look at Netflix, people prefer the season being released at once so they can watch it whenever they choose rather than commit to a weekly date and time.

Going off topic, and more so relating to the millennial ticket idea, for whatever reason people can no longer just sit still in their seats and watch an entire game. So can a kicker really sell tickets? It's interesting to see what will happen, whether it progresses or not, but the next gen of society aren't like what sports fans used to be IMO.

[Neely2005]

I saw that BUT how many are there just to see him? I'm guessing a lot are there regardless with their football team. So how many tickets can this guy actually sell. Can his other fans even make a 3 hour commitment to live football or are they more invested in shortened condensed clips available whenever they choose to watch it? Look at Netflix, people prefer the season being released at once so they can watch it whenever they choose rather than commit to a weekly date and time.

Going off topic, and more so relating to the millennial ticket idea, for whatever reason people can no longer just sit still in their seats and watch an entire game. So can a kicker really sell tickets? It's interesting to see what will happen, whether it progresses or not, but the next gen of society aren't like what sports fans used to be IMO.

Yeah you're probably right why bother trying to take advantage of our best known player.

On that we can agree, judging by our youngest son and his friends professional sports are in big trouble. My son and his friends are among the few that actually play sports and even they don't watch sports.

[ArgoGabe22]

Yeah you're probably right why bother trying to take advantage of our best known player.

I believe JWJ is involved a lot with TV spots and community events :D

[Neely2005]

I believe JWJ is involved a lot with TV spots and community events :D

Lol, good one. Let me know when he hits 1.5+ Million followers.

[gilthethrill]

Basing roster spots on You Tube followers rather than talent. Sounds like a good plan.

[1971GreyCup]

The team has something up their sleeve. Given the roster, keeping him on the PR makes zero sense. Given his World Cup visit recently, he is staying on the PR on his terms.

[gilthethrill]

The team has something up their sleeve. Given the roster, keeping him on the PR makes zero sense. Given his World Cup visit recently, he is staying on the PR on his terms.

I have to agree with you.....MLSE has something going on with this youngster ....

[Neely2005]

Basing roster spots on You Tube followers rather than talent. Sounds like a good plan.

Yes we definitely don't want to mess with the chemistry of this winning team.

[argolio]

Basing roster spots on You Tube followers rather than talent. Sounds like a good plan.Yeah, it's a really stupid plan. But if the season is officially lost by September/October, they can use him as a P.R stunt all they want. Put him on the roster, publicize it all they want, and see what happens. You could also justify that from a football point-of-view since other younger players would also get more playing time.

[gilthethrill]

Yes we definitely don't want to mess with the chemistry of this winning team.

If Tyler Crapigna, he of the career 86.4 % FG success rate stumbles, then yes, by all means promote De La Haye.

[Joe Barnes]

If Tyler Crapigna, he of the career 86.4 % FG success rate stumbles, then yes, by all means promote De La Haye.

I remember Evel Knievel taking penalty shots on the back-up goalie between periods at a Toros game, back in the day. Got lots of media coverage. Maybe we could see what he's up to? Or perhaps his son...

[paulwoods13]

If you're going to make football decisions for business (rather than football) reasons, you had better have a sound business case and plan. "Let's see what happens if we try it" probably does not meet that test. But maybe that's just old-school thinking.

I would love someone to explain to me why people who watch an individual for free on YouTube videos in which he is the unquestioned feature attraction would also spend money to see him stand around doing nothing for the better part of three hours.

[Neely2005]

If Tyler Crapigna, he of the career 86.4 % FG success rate stumbles, then yes, by all means promote De La Haye.

Is missing his first regular season kick as an Argonaut a stumble?

[Neely2005]

So much small minded, old school thinking on exhibit.

[bannedforlife]

So much small minded, old school thinking on exhibit.You're kidding. I was discouraged from even discussing some points that Mike Hogan brought up himself. And I wanted to be positive, but no I might offend our guest.

I haven't weighed in much on De La Haye because i thought it wasn't a good idea and that he might not be up to snuff. But the biggest thing you seem to hear about this team is lack of visibility. Do I think this guy is a gimmick, yes. Do I think he will draw a significant number of fans into the stadium, no. Flutie couldn't, I don't think Ricky Williams did, I really thought Manziel would but I don't think he did either. Manziel did draw a significant spike for the CFL on American TV. Since when have the Argos been averse to a gimmick? They have probably been the worst offender for famous ex NFL talent since the Alouettes early 80s debacle.

What this kid can do is bring some visibility and maybe sell some merch and I'm beginning to think at this present time that might be even more important than winning. God knows the Argos need some visibility. Try the kid at kickoffs, cheerleader, something.

[AngeloV]

Is missing his first regular season kick as an Argonaut a stumble?

Have you ever kicked? I have, and as I mentioned on that game thread, laces were pointing towards the kicker, which is the cause for the hook on that kick. It wouldn’t have been an issue if they were still kicking converts from the 12, but from 32, it is a huge factor. That miss is on Ralph, not Crapinga.

[1971GreyCup]

The issue of the next generation engagement is critical. I don’t know the answer. George Cope Bell Inc. and Larry Tanenbaum rescued the team in 2012. George Cope is retiring. Larry is 75 years old. His tenure may not be too long.

Because you don’t pay for YouTube doesn’t make it free. Companies and individuals are getting rich on this platform.

[bannedforlife]

Because you don’t pay for YouTube doesn’t make it free. Companies and individuals are getting rich on this platform.You never know, might be the next CFL "TV" contract. Maybe the one after that (smile)

[ArgoGabe22]

You're kidding. I was discouraged from even discussing some points that Mike Hogan brought up himself. And I wanted to be positive, but no I might offend our guest.

It’s not what exactly you’re saying, it’s how you’re saying it. This comment exemplifies that, again. So does your username. And this isn’t your first rodeo.

[bannedforlife]

It’s not what you’re saying, it’s how you’re saying it. This comment exemplifies that, again. So does your username. What is this, your third rodeo? All those forgotten passwords...Nope just one, just trying not to get banned as it seems zealous fans do before obvious trolls.

Is it ok if I ask Mike a question?

[paulwoods13]

George Cope Bell Inc. and Larry Tanenbaum rescued the team in 2012. George Cope is retiring. Larry is 75 years old. His tenure may not be too long.

2016, for the record.


Because you don’t pay for YouTube doesn’t make it free. Companies and individuals are getting rich on this platform.

Sure, but users of basic YouTube pay nothing other than the time required to watch (or disable) ads.

[1971GreyCup]

2016, for the record.



Sure, but users of basic YouTube pay nothing other than the time required to watch (or disable) ads.

I was pretty sure George Cope Bell Media and Larry Tanenbaum bought the team prior to transferring it to MLSE.

[AngeloV]

I was pretty sure George Cope Bell Media and Larry Tanenbaum bought the team prior to transferring it to MLSE.

They did, but as Paul noted, it was 2016. MLSE was added in full after the 2017 season.

[argos1873]

Here's what I notice on threads like this. This has been going on for years. Someone will mention some sort of marketing thing. Some people on this forum will claim it won't work because of a and b and z. Years later, here we are....Those same people who were adamant that a,b and z wouldn't work, when never tried, are still here saying there's nothing you can do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[paulwoods13]

Here's what I notice on threads like this. This has been going on for years. Someone will mention some sort of marketing thing. Some people on this forum will claim it won't work because of a and b and z. Years later, here we are....Those same people who were adamant that a,b and z wouldn't work, when never tried, are still here saying there's nothing you can do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I haven't seen anyone here saying "there's nothing you can do." I've seen lots of suggestions in threads on this forum. And I've seen some suggestions get shot down as unworkable by some posters. Is there something wrong with people expressing opinions for or against ideas? Should every suggestion be embraced by all fans?

[bannedforlife]

Is there something wrong with people expressing opinions for or against ideas? I seemed to get that very impression.

[paulwoods13]

I seemed to get that very impression.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think what prompted a negative response was the fact that Hogan responded to you, in considerable detail, AND made clear that he could not answer every question. Yet you continued to ask questions, thereby putting him in a position where he had no choice but to stop responding.

[1971GreyCup]

They did, but as Paul noted, it was 2016. MLSE was added in full after the 2017 season.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

George Cope and Larry Tanenbaum both were brought up with, and loved the Toronto Argonauts like the rest of us Grey haired fans in the stadium. In 2016, they were instrumental in saving the team. Since that season, I’ve seen them at the games (with Dale Lastman). They sat in their club seats to start with, then moved to the owner’s box each game.

Like many of us, today’s Argos are just an extension of the special time in the sixties and seventies when 54,000 fans came out to cheer.

I have same concern about the aging fan base as I have with the aging ownership. George Cope is retiring. One half of the committed owners leaves shortly. Will George or Larry’s successors be as committed without the history?

[Neely2005]

Here's what I notice on threads like this. This has been going on for years. Someone will mention some sort of marketing thing. Some people on this forum will claim it won't work because of a and b and z. Years later, here we are....Those same people who were adamant that a,b and z wouldn't work, when never tried, are still here saying there's nothing you can do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mostly agree. However I don't think that most people say/think that there's nothing you can do.

A lot of people do shoot down new ideas/thinking and then offer no Specific ideas of their own. Or if they actually do make a suggestion it's an outdated one (TV commercials, pocket schedules etc.) that hasn't worked in the past / won't reach new younger fans.

[1971GreyCup]

Here’s my Jerry Maguire like Manifesto (he wrote “The Things We Think, But Do Not Say”).

I recently heard of an interesting business principle called “Courageous Conversations”. All businesses are always at threat of becoming dinosaurs and quickly. Too many businesses are populated by sycophants. Yes men. Courageous Conversations only come about when you can trust your colleagues to not try and embarrass you amongst your peer groups. Being shot down amongst your peer group has a negative feedback to you and your peer group.

I don’t think anyone here has an exclusive on direction or process. Everyone on here loves the team. I see a ton of marketing ideas implemented that were discussed, and some shot down here, years ago.

Perhaps this medium should continue to be one where ideas are proposed with less judgement. Does it really matter if an idea is ludicrous? Couldn’t it ok just to let it die here?

We all agree that more of the same may not be enough to turn the ship around? Out-of-the-box ideas shouldn’t be dismissed. I am of the position that it’s enough to get the idea out there. Let the eyes at MLSE see and take it or leave it. In the end, it’s their jobs on the line.

Let’s face it, the fan base is small and shrinking. Do we really want to fragment what’s left?

[bannedforlife]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think what prompted a negative response was the fact that Hogan responded to you, in considerable detail, AND made clear that he could not answer every question. Yet you continued to ask questions, thereby putting him in a position where he had no choice but to stop responding.I didn't see any problem between Hogan and me. First, it was his choice (with MLSE's tacit approval) to post what he did. And I said I appreciated it. But surely to God he can respond "I'm sorry I can't answer that" or "I don't know at this present time" Even if he couldn't answer, I just wanted to put some of these things up for discussion with everybody else. And then I get a response "It’s not what exactly you’re saying, it’s how you’re saying it". What kind of PC gobbledygook is that? It's like "I don't care about the facts, I feel that" Please don't act like Kreskin and that you can read my mind, if that's the case let's leave this forum, go to Vegas and make some money off that talent.

God, I can't believe I'm writing this. Mike has free will, he can choose to answer or not, he doesn't need a minder. I am quite sure MLSE doesn't mind us picking his brain and communicating with him without giving up any atomic secrets. Lord gimme strength! Tom Anselmi (IIRC) used to interact with TFC fans all the time and they didn't have this kid glove attitude, they were totally engaged. Maybe it's a generational thing but the worst part is I'm the same generation as the guys here. Now is this gonna flip people out or can we (Mike included or not) have some frank discussions on how to get the Argos back to where they should be.

[bannedforlife]

Here’s my Jerry Maguire like Manifesto (he wrote “The Things We Think, But Do Not Say”).

I recently heard of an interesting business principle called “Courageous Conversations”. All businesses are always at threat of becoming dinosaurs and quickly. Too many businesses are populated by sycophants. Yes men. Courageous Conversations only come about when you can trust your colleagues to not try and embarrass you amongst your peer groups. Being shot down amongst your peer group has a negative feedback to you and your peer group.

I don’t think anyone here has an exclusive on direction or process. Everyone on here loves the team. I see a ton of marketing ideas implemented that were discussed, and some shot down here, years ago.

Perhaps this medium should continue to be one where ideas are proposed with less judgement. Does it really matter if an idea is ludicrous? Couldn’t it ok just to let it die here?

We all agree that more of the same may not be enough to turn the ship around? Out-of-the-box ideas shouldn’t be dismissed. I am of the position that it’s enough to get the idea out there. Let the eyes at MLSE see and take it or leave it. In the end, it’s their jobs on the line.

Let’s face it, the fan base is small and shrinking. Do we really want to fragment what’s left?Amen, agree with everything you said, the highlighted is what we used to call blue skies thought. What if you had an unlimited budget or could do what you want what would you do? And then you can work from there to seek solutions. Just one approach from many.

[Neely2005]

Here’s my Jerry Maguire like Manifesto (he wrote “The Things We Think, But Do Not Say”).

I recently heard of an interesting business principle called “Courageous Conversations”. All businesses are always at threat of becoming dinosaurs and quickly. Too many businesses are populated by sycophants. Yes men. Courageous Conversations only come about when you can trust your colleagues to not try and embarrass you amongst your peer groups. Being shot down amongst your peer group has a negative feedback to you and your peer group.

I don’t think anyone here has an exclusive on direction or process. Everyone on here loves the team. I see a ton of marketing ideas implemented that were discussed, and some shot down here, years ago.

Perhaps this medium should continue to be one where ideas are proposed with less judgement. Does it really matter if an idea is ludicrous? Couldn’t it ok just to let it die here?

We all agree that more of the same may not be enough to turn the ship around? Out-of-the-box ideas shouldn’t be dismissed. I am of the position that it’s enough to get the idea out there. Let the eyes at MLSE see and take it or leave it. In the end, it’s their jobs on the line.

Let’s face it, the fan base is small and shrinking. Do we really want to fragment what’s left?

What you're describing is also Brainstorming 101. Companies will have a meeting and have everyone suggest as many ideas as possible. The only rule is no negative feedback. After all the ideas are gathered they will reconvene a couple days later and go through every idea one by one to discuss its feasibility.

[bannedforlife]

We’ve also partnered with the Toronto Flag Football League. Every team uniform at every level is adorned with a giant Argos logo on the front. We want to entice kids with an interest in the sport to become more Argo friendly. This is hopefully a long-term arrangement.I'm gonna start with this one as it's a fantastic initiative and one I raised years ago.

The idea of transitioning to contact football is a sound one. And getting the Argos logo out there is great. To transition to contact football, though, is to get the word out there that football is safe and your kid won't end up with CTE which the fear mongering does a better job of communicating. Safe tackling techniques (not leading with your head) have to be communicated to the public. To me there should be no reason why football should be any more prone to head injuries than any other sport.

Rant mode on, sensitive readers stop here
As some precedence, before the Sydney Olympics, the Australians initiated a plan to attract athletes so they would be competitive and not embarrass themselves at their own Olympics. Part of that was to recruit foreign athletes and give them Australian citizenship but the part that applies to us is that they wanted to take similar sports and convert the athletes to another sport, ie gymnastics to trampoline.

Has it been discussed about taking various football codes and applying them to Canadian football, obviously we are talking about flag football, what about youth rugby players transitioning to football. Pad protected football has a stigma attached to it now. Various PC movements ie third wave feminism are conspiring against it over the concussion issue, mothers don't want their kids playing football. Results are inconclusive, I have read reports over the most dangerous sports for children and I see different results with every report. I've seen basketball, and skateboarding heading lists which usually use ER room visits as a metric to the level of danger. Personally I was always under the impression gymnastics was one of the most dangerous sports but you will never read that.

In the short term, the issue is how to get kids playing contact football, if they are coming from another similar sport, and in the longer term the issue is how to get rid of the head injury stigma. Rant mode off

[ArgoGabe22]

I don’t see why fans cannot have doubts whether De La Haye’s online presence will translate into ticket sales. It’s a legitimate question. Also starting him just for the sake of his popularity might not sit well with the rest of the team, especially if there might be a mutiny (as per Zicarelli) . But if he’s the best kicker and deserves it, then go for it.

[bannedforlife]

^Totally agree, but I have two issues. One is the Argos need visibility and he can provide that and two, the Argos are bleeding and it needs to stop before the long road to health can begin. The Als were in critical condition but it seems like they've stopped the bleeding and are on the road to recovery. Sorry for the bad metaphor. I guess I'm trying to say that the Argos need a positive kickstart (no pun intended)

[1971GreyCup]

How about rethinking the CFL? Put more Canadian in CFL? Rather than try and be a poor cousin to the NFL, increase dramatically the Canadian content with a focus on teams retaining talent. My wife, twenty years removed from the U.K., was just asking about all those transient American players in the CFL that stay a year or two and seem to move from team to team.

Canadian talent is rapidly developing on the sides of the border. Can the league go back to the fifties/sixties when local talent plus American talent largely hung around for a career. No question, the CFL is heading towards more & cheaper Americans/global players with the new CBA.

I don’t see cheaper, transient American players appealing to Torontonians.

Just blue skying here!

[bannedforlife]

^Agree, reduce the ratio. The Canadian part is the essential appeal of the game, lessening it lessens the appeal for most fans. Common sense really, those that advocate for more Americans will be preferring the NFL anyway. Something lost in the shuffle was early on the Commissioner talking about de-emphasizing the "C" in CFL. I only heard it once, maybe that got translated into CFL 2.0

[1971GreyCup]

Curiously, wasn’t Randy Ambrosie was on the CFLPA that fought expanding the American roster?

[bannedforlife]

I believe I read that in this go around the threat to reduce the ratio was a BS ploy. But I don't think too many people have ever mentioned the thought of reducing the ratio and the American players getting control of the union. That would be the end of the CFL as I know it. Previously, the American players weren't much interested, now they are becoming much more interested.

[1971GreyCup]

What you're describing is also Brainstorming 101. Companies will have a meeting and have everyone suggest as many ideas as possible. The only rule is no negative feedback. After all the ideas are gathered they will reconvene a couple days later and go through every idea one by one to discuss its feasibility.

I think Courageous Conversations go 1 step beyond Brainstorming 101. If you have 5 minutes there’s a very good example of this on the podcast link below:

http://investorfieldguide.com/maureen/

Maureen Chiquet, longtime CEO of Chanel talks about it.

43:45 – Markers of courageous conversations

[1971GreyCup]

I don’t see why fans cannot have doubts whether De La Haye’s online presence will translate into ticket sales. It’s a legitimate question. Also starting him just for the sake of his popularity might not sit well with the rest of the team, especially if there might be a mutiny (as per Zicarelli) . But if he’s the best kicker and deserves it, then go for it.

I don’t think I even meant starting him. Somehow tap into his energy with the youth. Argos advertise on his channel? “Hey kids, come out to the next game and win a chance to make a YouTube video on the field with @ddestroying after the game?? Use this offer for a buy one ticket and get one for free.” Use code YouTube and be entered into a special draw. See what happens?

[bannedforlife]

I don’t think I even meant starting him. Somehow tap into his energy with the youth. Argos advertise on his channel? “Hey kids, come out to the next game and win a chance to make a YouTube video on the field with @ddestroying after the game?? Use this offer for a buy one ticket and get one for free.” Use code YouTube and be entered into a special draw. See what happens?That's good thinking, that is what I meant when I said get him involved somehow.

[ArgoGabe22]

I don’t think I even meant starting him.

“Next home game start YouTube sensation @destroying. Social media night. About 1.5 million young people will know the Argos are playing. My son’s friends don’t follow the Argos but do follow @destroying.”

I don’t think anyone has an issue if they use him for promos whether it’s to meet the players or use youtube coupon codes. I’m actually surprised they haven’t used him in such capacity, but he still needs to earn his spot.

[AngeloV]

“Next home game start YouTube sensation @destroying. Social media night. About 1.5 million young people will know the Argos are playing. My son’s friends don’t follow the Argos but do follow @destroying.”

I don’t think anyone has an issue if they use him for promos whether it’s to meet the players or use youtube coupon codes. I’m actually surprised they haven’t used him in such capacity, but he still needs to earn his spot.

Exactly. Argos should advertise on his YouTube channel, but don’t hand him a roster spot. The players on the team and around the league need to know that you are trying to field the best possible teams at all times.

[1971GreyCup]

“Next home game start YouTube sensation @destroying. Social media night. About 1.5 million young people will know the Argos are playing. My son’s friends don’t follow the Argos but do follow @destroying.”

I don’t think anyone has an issue if they use him for promos whether it’s to meet the players or use youtube coupon codes. I’m actually surprised they haven’t used him in such capacity, but he still needs to earn his spot.

My ideas aren’t ready for the MLSE Board of Directors. Just throwing out raw ideas. Everyone is welcome to improve on them. Or ideas on here. Just turn around the damn ship!

[bannedforlife]

Exactly. Argos should advertise on his YouTube channel, but don’t hand him a roster spot. The players on the team and around the league need to know that you are trying to field the best possible teams at all times.I don't think the Argos need to advertise on his channel, he is already giving them free promotion by being there, showing game footage and wearing the uniform. 71GC's suggestion was sound, or an idea like that, I don't think we even need to consider him as an active player to accomplish the exposure goal.

[ArgoGabe22]

I don't think the Argos need to advertise on his channel, he is already giving them free promotion by being there, showing game footage and wearing the uniform. 71GC's suggestion was sound, or an idea like that, I don't think we even need to consider him as an active player to accomplish the exposure goal.

What about a youth deal? Use deestroying as a coupon code? He could do giveaways on social media? He’s not doing much Argos content lately. At lot is still done statestide. And for the record, Nike invited him to Women’s World Cup in Paris (FYI to those wondering)