Harris, Collaros, Fajardo, Kilgore and probably Franklin Argos - CFL QB Farm Team

[jerrym]

Harris, Collaros, Fajardo, Kilgore and probably Franklin. The Toronto Argonauts - QB farm team of the CFL. Is it possible for the team to keep a young QB?

[Will]

While he was never an Argo, it is slightly frustrating that Popp was the one who found Vernon Adams Jr.

[paulwoods13]

While he was never an Argo, it is slightly frustrating that Popp was the one who found Vernon Adams Jr.

Altho he was originally on B.C.'s neg list, IIRC, and had to be obtained for a first-round draft pick. So some credit to Wally as well.

[Neely2005]

At least Harris and Collaros were understandable as we had Ray in MVP form. We're probably going to lose Franklin because MBT!

[R.J]

Not thinking about the future, and holding onto Ricky Ray too long lead to the Argos losing Harris, Collaros in his prime, and Fajardo. It’ll probably happen again now with the morons leading this team sticking with the clearly backup at best Bethel-Thompson.

Prukop and O’Connor should get the rest of the reps this season IMO, but I see no point in holding my breath on that, as the morons will ride Bethel-Thompson and Franklin until the fat lady sings.

[ArgoGabe22]

Idk if Kilgore is close to the others.

[jerrym]

Idk if Kilgore is close to the others.

I agree. However, I didn't say otherwise. However, he is deemed good enough by another team to be a #2 and to start when Harris went down.

[gilthethrill]

I agree. However, I didn't say otherwise. However, he is deemed good enough by another team to be a #2 and to start when Harris went down.

I think Kilgore won the #2 job in Edmonton because there was no one else.

[Antwon]

I understand losing Harris and Collaros because Ray was still playing well. But Fajardo ticks me off. He spends two years behind Ray learning, then Trestman and Popp let him go as a FA. Then he spends a year learning from Lulay.
He's played behind two future HOF's. Not a surprise he's playing so well now.

[jerrym]

Are the Argos showcasing Franklin for a possible trade? It would not surprise me considering their record with other young QBs. If he does well in the next couple of games, I hope they at least see if they can resign him at a reasonable price before putting out there as trade bait. But if history is predictive, that seems unlikely.

[jerrym]

Harris is leading the CFL in passing yardage, even though he missed a game, while also going 15/4 in TDs/Int. with a 104.4 Efficiency rating and a 0.9% interception rate. Fajardo, despite seeing relatively little action before this breakout season is fifth in passing yardage with a 99.6 efficiency rating and likely to be third after this week as he is about 100 yards behind MBT and Adams who are not starting and suspended respectively. It hurts to think how much they might have improved the Argos and how long that might have lasted.

[AngeloV]

Harris is leading the CFL in passing yardage, even though he missed a game, while also going 15/4 in TDs/Int. with a 104.4 Efficiency rating and a 0.9% interception rate. Fajardo, despite seeing relatively little action before this breakout season is fifth in passing yardage with a 99.6 efficiency rating and likely to be third after this week as he is about 100 yards behind MBT and Adams who are not starting and suspended respectively. It hurts to think how much they might have improved the Argos and how long that might have lasted.

Harris has had the same problems the Argos QB's have had this season in not being able to finish off drives. He really hasn't been that good since week 3 (excluding the game in Toronto). Difference being his D has been really good, yet he still only led them to a 6-6 record before going down. I've always liked Harris' toughness, but I'm not going to concede that he's a great QB. As I have said, he left Ottawa for Edmonton, and made both teams worse.

[jerrym]

Harris has had the same problems the Argos QB's have had this season in not being able to finish off drives. He really hasn't been that good since week 3 (excluding the game in Toronto). Difference being his D has been really good, yet he still only led them to a 6-6 record before going down. I've always liked Harris' toughness, but I'm not going to concede that he's a great QB. As I have said, he left Ottawa for Edmonton, and made both teams worse.

I never said he was great but he is one of the better QBs in the league and better than MBT, IMO.

[doubleblue]

I never said he was great but he is one of the better QBs in the league and better than MBT, IMO.

I would rate Harris #4 in the League behind Mitchell, Reilly and Masoli. Followed by Nichols, Adams, Fajardo, Bethel-Thompson and who ever Ottawa starts.
Vernon Adams would be my pick to eventually move up a couple of notches.
I'm sure there will be great agreement. :)

[AngeloV]

I would rate Harris #4 in the League behind Mitchell, Reilly and Masoli. Followed by Nichols, Adams, Fajardo, Bethel-Thompson and who ever Ottawa starts.
Vernon Adams would be my pick to eventually move up a couple of notches.
I'm sure there will be great agreement. :)

Agree for the most part. To me BLM and Masoli are 1-2. I think Reilly has been slipping the last couple of years. Yes he has a horrible o-line in BC, but he still throws a lot of bad picks that just aren't on the o-line. I have Adams ahead of him right now. Would be interesting to see how good Nichols would be if he had to throw as much as other QB's do. I think he would be at the bottom of the list TBH.

[ArgoZ]

I would rate Harris #4 in the League behind Mitchell, Reilly and Masoli. Followed by Nichols, Adams, Fajardo, Bethel-Thompson and who ever Ottawa starts.
Vernon Adams would be my pick to eventually move up a couple of notches.
I'm sure there will be great agreement. :)

To think that in 2015, Collaros was better than all of them. Hamilton would have won the cup that year had he stayed healthy. I didn’t want to admit it at the time, but looking back he was the closest player I have ever seen to Flutie that year, as far as confidence and skill level.

[Neely2005]

Well that pro Fajardo poster from a couple years ago is being proven correct.

[ArgoZ]

Well that pro Fajardo poster from a couple years ago is being proven correct.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion. It was how they were delivering it in a constant, annoying way. I’m surprised at Fajardo’s success. I don’t believe he’s as good as he’s getting credit for. Still shows a very weak arm for a pro QB. They are making it work though, mostly do his run threat and some good play calling.

Edit: Nice 50 yard TD pass to prove me wrong, LOL.

[OV Argo]

Well that pro Fajardo poster from a couple years ago is being proven correct.


Sure would be interesting to go back and read the Fajardo reviews from commentators here when he got some playing time as an Argo - some thought he was at least impressive, others wrote him off big-time.

[OV Argo]

Not thinking about the future, and holding onto Ricky Ray too long lead to the Argos losing Harris, Collaros in his prime, and Fajardo. It’ll probably happen again now with the morons leading this team sticking with the clearly backup at best Bethel-Thompson.

Prukop and O’Connor should get the rest of the reps this season IMO, but I see no point in holding my breath on that, as the morons will ride Bethel-Thompson and Franklin until the fat lady sings.


I`ll be shocked if Prukop, and especially O`Connor play a down for this team this season; yup - better to stick with the average to mediocre performances of QBs who have shown they are not going to win consistently rather than go to a young QB and see what they can do.

Decision making of CFL coaching staffs - both rosters and play-book & calling; are teams like Ottawa, BC and the Argos really going to stick with their GM, HC and coaching staff after putrid, laughable seasons ÉÉÉ

[argotom]

After today's latest fiasco, O'Connor should be starting next week and for the rest of the season.
Or alternating with Prukop.
The history with our 3 QB's leaving, ultimately some can be attributed for the stupidity of manangement for staying with Ray too long, even after the GC 2017 season.
That's when he should have been forced to retire period with the transitioning into at least Harris and Fajardo remaining to battle it out.

[ArgoGabe22]

After today's latest fiasco, O'Connor should be starting next week and for the rest of the season.
Or alternating with Prukop.
The history with our 3 QB's leaving, ultimately some can be attributed for the stupidity of manangement for staying with Ray too long, even after the GC 2017 season.
That's when he should have been forced to retire period with the transitioning into at least Harris and Fajardo remaining to battle it out.

Not the most ideal conditions for O’Conner. Terrible offensive playbook with a terrible o-line is recipe for disaster

[Argo57]

Not the most ideal conditions for O’Conner. Terrible offensive playbook with a terrible o-line is recipe for disaster

That’s exactly why they shouldn’t play at this point, this O-Line is atrocious and Chapdelaine’s offence doesn’t strike fear into anyone.

[paulwoods13]

After today's latest fiasco, O'Connor should be starting next week and for the rest of the season.
Or alternating with Prukop.
The history with our 3 QB's leaving, ultimately some can be attributed for the stupidity of manangement for staying with Ray too long, even after the GC 2017 season.
That's when he should have been forced to retire period with the transitioning into at least Harris and Fajardo remaining to battle it out.

Harris was gone before 2017.

[doubleblue]

That’s exactly why they shouldn’t play at this point, this O-Line is atrocious and Chapdelaine’s offence doesn’t strike fear into anyone.

I agree except Chapdelaine's offense does strike fear in somebody. THE FAN BASE.

[Argo57]

I agree except Chapdelaine's offense does strike fear in somebody. THE FAN BASE.

And the Head Coach that hired him.

[Neely2005]

Sure would be interesting to go back and read the Fajardo reviews from commentators here when he got some playing time as an Argo - some thought he was at least impressive, others wrote him off big-time.

Found these:

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?5057-Cody-Fajardo

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?3964-Cody-Fajardo

[Stevoman]

Found these:

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?5057-Cody-Fajardo

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.php?3964-Cody-Fajardo

Haha, fun to read through and I like that I was on his side way back when as I'm definitely happy for him now and truly wish he was still with the Argos. The media keeps saying that he never was given a start with the Argos but I seem to remember that he started one game against Montreal and did not fare very well in that one. Am I confusing him with Jeff Matthews?

[jerrym]

I agree except Chapdelaine's offense does strike fear in somebody. THE FAN BASE.

Nominated for best joke of the season.

[paulwoods13]

Haha, fun to read through and I like that I was on his side way back when as I'm definitely happy for him now and truly wish he was still with the Argos. The media keeps saying that he never was given a start with the Argos but I seem to remember that he started one game against Montreal and did not fare very well in that one. Am I confusing him with Jeff Matthews?

IIRC Matthews started, Fajardo played the second half. Neither distinguished himself that day.

[Neely2005]

IIRC Matthews started, Fajardo played the second half. Neither distinguished himself that day.

Correct, I remember because we were at this game in Montreal.

IIRC this was the only game that Ray didn't start that season.

[Jon Gonzo]

BBDW (bring back Drew Willy)!

[argos1873]

I`ll be shocked if Prukop, and especially O`Connor play a down for this team this season; yup - better to stick with the average to mediocre performances of QBs who have shown they are not going to win consistently rather than go to a young QB and see what they can do.

Decision making of CFL coaching staffs - both rosters and play-book & calling; are teams like Ottawa, BC and the Argos really going to stick with their GM, HC and coaching staff after putrid, laughable seasons ÉÉÉ

I have been calling for O'Connor to start for a few weeks now, mostly out of spite for the mostly horrible decisions of the coaching staff, and mostly lackluster performance of the current starting QBs. But I realize putting O'Connor into this mess will mostly be a disaster for him. But I if he doesn't play at least 1 series from here on out, I will be very disappointed over and above how disappointed I already am in this coaching staff/management.

[AngeloV]

I have been calling for O'Connor to start for a few weeks now, mostly out of spite for the mostly horrible decisions of the coaching staff, and mostly lackluster performance of the current starting QBs. But I realize putting O'Connor into this mess will mostly be a disaster for him. But I if he doesn't play at least 1 series from here on out, I will be very disappointed over and above how disappointed I already am in this coaching staff/management.

I would like to see him dress and run the QB sneaks for now. He's a big athletic guy, and Prukop was horrible at it earlier in the year. Franklin to me should not see the field again as an Argo.

[RB957]

I would like to see him dress and run the QB sneaks for now. He's a big athletic guy, and Prukop was horrible at it earlier in the year. Franklin to me should not see the field again as an Argo.

I agree with you on this. I have been a big believer in Franklin, but have resigned myself to the fact he is not the guy. Some of it is on the team's mismanagement of him, but he hasn't helped himself either.

[argos1873]

I would like to see him dress and run the QB sneaks for now. He's a big athletic guy, and Prukop was horrible at it earlier in the year. Franklin to me should not see the field again as an Argo.

I would be happy with that as well. Has he not dressed? Everytime the depth chart comes out they list him as 4th string. Don't know why they are carrying 4 QBs, but I assumed if he's listed on the depth chart he is dressing. Am I wrong?

[AngeloV]

I would be happy with that as well. Has he not dressed? Everytime the depth chart comes out they list him as 4th string. Don't know why they are carrying 4 QBs, but I assumed if he's listed on the depth chart he is dressing. Am I wrong?

He dressed while Franklin was on the IR, but only as #3. He has a really nice arm and is pretty big, and looked pretty nimble in the pre season game at Varsity. I wouldn't want to play him taking reps with this o-line right now. Similar situation in Hamilton with Larry Jusdanis. He got killed when he played and I think it ruined him.

[paulwoods13]

We are carrying five QBs (five, actually, including Collaros) because two of them are kids with potential. Prukop presumably is ahead of O'Connor at this stage, and is also a useful guy on special teams. There are many things to criticize mgmt for, but keeping too many QBs is not one of them, especially if the alternative was letting O'Connor walk.

[doubleblue]

I have been calling for O'Connor to start for a few weeks now, mostly out of spite for the mostly horrible decisions of the coaching staff, and mostly lackluster performance of the current starting QBs. But I realize putting O'Connor into this mess will mostly be a disaster for him. But I if he doesn't play at least 1 series from here on out, I will be very disappointed over and above how disappointed I already am in this coaching staff/management.

After the Argos are "officially" eliminated this weekend in BC I would like to see Prukop start or play a lot against Ottawa the following week. As others have said he's been here three years now and should have some knowledge of the offense and the League. Got see what he can do now. Let him get in there and allow him to use his legs when needed. Who would have thought at the start of the season that backup QB's Evans, Fajardo, Arbuckle, Adams, Streveler and Kilgore would all be starting and in most cases doing very well. Simplify the offense for him if needed. You don't need a 101 different plays that makes the OC sound smart. Then give O'Conner some plays in the second game against Ottawa. He has a strong arm and a quick release sounds perfect for a short passing game to get his feet wet and slow down the pass rush. They have four Import offensive linemen on the roster. I say start at least three of them, LT and both guards and drop one of the receiver's Smith or Edwards, they not seeing the ball much anyway. Let Noel and Gittens replace one of them. Give us season ticket holders a reason to look forward to coming to the games. :bored:
Sorry about that James and McLeod I like you both as people, but we have seen enough, and because I like you I would love to see you both get some playoff money and a chance at winning the Grey Cup. Starting on the trade deadline October the 9th.

[argos1873]

Here's what's really interesting. The Argos for the better part of what, 4 decades, signed or developed ZERO young capable Qbs with no pro experience. Suddenly starting with Collaros, Harris, etc, the Argos actually started to acquire and develop young QBs. But they had Ray, who while extraordinary while healthy was injured a lot. The timing was just all wrong, and I actually don't blame management for this mess. I was one of the "keep Zach" camp in 2013, but they didn't. How many cups has Zach won? Ray won us another in 2017. I wanted Harris to stay, but he didn't again....2017...that's Ray. So here we are in 2019. All those QBs that the Argos developed are gone, and all we have to show for it is a Grey Cup in 2017. None of these guys we let go, brought their team to a Grey Cup, except maybe Harris who filled in for Burris when he was hurt.

[paulwoods13]

Here's what's really interesting. The Argos for the better part of what, 4 decades, signed or developed ZERO young capable Qbs with no pro experience. Suddenly starting with Collaros, Harris, etc, the Argos actually started to acquire and develop young QBs. But they had Ray, who while extraordinary while healthy was injured a lot. The timing was just all wrong, and I actually don't blame management for this mess. I was one of the "keep Zach" camp in 2013, but they didn't. How many cups has Zach won? Ray won us another in 2017. I wanted Harris to stay, but he didn't again....2017...that's Ray. So here we are in 2019. All those QBs that the Argos developed are gone, and all we have to show for it is a Grey Cup in 2017. None of these guys we let go, brought their team to a Grey Cup, except maybe Harris who filled in for Burris when he was hurt.

Pretty good thing to show for it. (Which doesn't mean we should stop trying to develop, and keep, young QBs. But I'd make that trade again.)

[Al&Kat]

After the Argos are "officially" eliminated this weekend in BC I would like to see Prukop start or play a lot against Ottawa the following week. As others have said he's been here three years now and should have some knowledge of the offense and the League. Got see what he can do now. Let him get in there and allow him to use his legs when needed. Who would have thought at the start of the season that backup QB's Evans, Fajardo, Arbuckle, Adams, Streveler and Kilgore would all be starting and in most cases doing very well. Simplify the offense for him if needed. You don't need a 101 different plays that makes the OC sound smart. Then give O'Conner some plays in the second game against Ottawa. He has a strong arm and a quick release sounds perfect for a short passing game to get his feet wet and slow down the pass rush. They have four Import offensive linemen on the roster. I say start at least three of them, LT and both guards and drop one of the receiver's Smith or Edwards, they not seeing the ball much anyway. Let Noel and Gittens replace one of them. Give us season ticket holders a reason to look forward to coming to the games. :bored:
Sorry about that James and McLeod I like you both as people, but we have seen enough, and because I like you I would love to see you both get some playoff money and a chance at winning the Grey Cup. Starting on the trade deadline October the 9th.

Argos may not yet be "officially eliminated" but here is their status, for those who may believe they will finish the year with a five-game win streak (cough cough)...
They are like the small-mouth bass "keeper", in the bottom of my 14-ft aluminum boat a couple weekends ago. Flipping, flopping and gasping for breath until
I crush its skull with my knock-out stick (which the Lions will do in a few days)
PS
for those who are voting, this is my 2019 entry for Laff of the Year...

[Argo57]

Argos may not yet be "officially eliminated" but here is their status, for those who may believe they will finish the year with a five-game win streak (cough cough)...
They are like the small-mouth bass "keeper", in the bottom of my 14-ft aluminum boat a couple weekends ago. Flipping, flopping and gasping for breath until
I crush its skull with my knock-out stick (which the Lions will do in a few days)
PS
for those who are voting, this is my 2019 entry for Laff of the Year...

Must admit I got a good laugh reading this one😂

[OV Argo]

He dressed while Franklin was on the IR, but only as #3. He has a really nice arm and is pretty big, and looked pretty nimble in the pre season game at Varsity. I wouldn't want to play him taking reps with this o-line right now. Similar situation in Hamilton with Larry Jusdanis. He got killed when he played and I think it ruined him.


Jusdanis was `killed`by CFL GOB thinking when he was written-off after one year of some playing time at QB - with lots of struggles on a bad offence, but also some flashes of promise; he was asked to switch to slotback the next season with no other real shot to play QB in the CFL again; meanwhile OTOH - dozens and dozens of young import QBs who struggled a bit or else got little playing time, have and continue to, survived on CFL rosters, with repeat chances to be on rosters of multiple teams, and get at least several shots at playing time.

It`s the CFL way - wether some like it or not - all sorts of young American QBs get multiple shots at roster spots and at least some playing time; Canadian QBs are 3rd class citizens there - to be written-off with little shot or totally ignored to begin with, Don`t expect any change there soon; don`t expect O`Connor to play QB in the CFL.

[Neely2005]

Sanchez saying that one of MBT or Franklin will be traded to Winnipeg:

https://mobile.twitter.com/CFL_News/status/1179441700718219264

[doubleblue]

Sanchez saying that one of MBT or Franklin will be traded to Winnipeg:

https://mobile.twitter.com/CFL_News/status/1179441700718219264

Maybe that's why Chamblin hasn't named a starting QB yet for the game against the Lions. Frank Z. also mentioned in his article that Zach Collaros was taking some reps this week.
Conditional draft pick would be about all Winnipeg would give up IMO.

[Neely2005]

Maybe that's why Chamblin hasn't named a starting QB yet for the game against the Lions. Frank Z. also mentioned in his article that Zach Collaros was taking some reps this week.
Conditional draft pick would be about all Winnipeg would give up IMO.

What you mean that we won't be able to get what Winnipeg got from us for Drew Willy?!?
:-)

[AngeloV]

What you mean that we won't be able to get what Winnipeg got from us for Drew Willy?!?
:-)

I’m sure we can get a couple of players that are no longer in football.

[Argo57]

I’m sure we can get a couple of players that are no longer in football.

Popp: “Do you have any overrated DB’s who can’t tackle”?

[Neely2005]

I’m sure we can get a couple of players that are no longer in football.

Nah, I'll take what we gave up for Willy. A first overall draft pick, an all star player and a third round pick.

[OV Argo]

I`d take a 1st round pick and another player ( a promising young NI like receiver Peterman or DB Hallett) for either of Franklin or MacBeth

[Argo57]

I`d take a 1st round pick and another player ( a promising young NI like receiver Peterman or DB Hallett) for either of Franklin or MacBeth

This would be a good return for either QB.
Winnipeg have a very good team but surely must realize that having Streveler as their only option will lead them nowhere.

[AngeloV]

Nah, I'll take what we gave up for Willy. A first overall draft pick, an all star player and a third round pick.

So basically what I said. Nothing for nothing.

[BantOarsman]

If Streveler struggles in Regina this week, I have a feeling that MBT gets dealt. Guessing the return, I'll say: a 1st, Craig Roh, and a neg-lister/late pick.

[doubleblue]

If Streveler struggles in Regina this week, I have a feeling that MBT gets dealt. Guessing the return, I'll say: a 1st, Craig Roh, and a neg-lister/late pick.

Sounds pretty rich return for a very average QB who will be a free agent in February. I would think if Winnipeg was to trade anyone off their roster it would be under a "player to be named later" trade, especially a player like Roh. But the Argos could use a DE like him for sure.

[Neely2005]

So basically what I said. Nothing for nothing.

Nope, pretty much the exact opposite of what you said.

[paulwoods13]

Nope, pretty much the exact opposite of what you said.

Wouldn't the exact opposite of "Nothing for nothing" be "Something for something"?

The Willy trade was basically nothing for two draft picks that could have, but didn't, become something and a player who was briefly something but ended up amounting to nothing. So closer to nothing for nothing than nothing for something, and definitely not something for something.

[Wobbler]

Ugh. This, still? Heath did quite a bit more for Winnipeg than Willy did for the Argos. Winnipeg's poor use of the #1 pick in 2017 doesn't devalue it. Daniel Petermann may not have set the world on fire, but they have him and we don't.

It was a bad trade... that is no longer relevant.

[Nob]

I think that if you can get anything (even "futures") for either Franklin or MBT then be all over it.

Winnipeg needs help. I know that O'Shea is spouting that he doesn't - but that is just "Coach speak" (what else is he supposed to say???). Steveler is this decade's Ken Hobart. It scares me that he will be a free agent at the end of the season and could be (not necessarily "will be") a sought after commodity - a QB with 3-down experience. His failings are obvious. He's a worse passer than Franklin and MBT. No thanks.

The only reason why I would think that Winnipeg may not want a QB at the deadline is because it's tough to bring in a new QB and have him learn the system, and timing with new receivers. QB is a tougher position to plug and play new players in to.

[OV Argo]

Ugh. This, still? Heath did quite a bit more for Winnipeg than Willy did for the Argos. Winnipeg's poor use of the #1 pick in 2017 doesn't devalue it. Daniel Petermann may not have set the world on fire, but they have him and we don't.

It was a bad trade... that is no longer relevant.


Players Argos could have drafted with that 1st round 2017 pick - LB Cameron Judge - doing a very nice job as a starting LB for the Riders now; O-Linemen - Geoff Gray and Evan Johnson - both starting CFL O-linemen now in an area where Argos are weak; Petermann would have been a nice 3rd round get in 2018 as well IMO.


Bad trade É - more like brutal; but defenders of the faith might not think so.

[paulwoods13]

If it's a bad trade because the Argos lost the ability to draft guys who were available at the time of those picks, then virtually every trade involving draft picks is a bad trade. Players getting outperformed by players drafted lower than them is one of the only predictable things about every CFL draft. Maybe there have been trades where the player selected with the acquired pick turned out to be the best available player, but I'd bet those are few and far between. The Willy trade -- where the picks turned out to be worse players than guys who could have been picked -- is just par for the course.

[Jon Gonzo]

There are absolutely no reasons to defend that trade. You couldn't' possibly spin it as anything other than a giant, desperate mistake that in all likelihood cost those two gentlemen their jobs. Willy would have most likely been available as a free agent in short order anyway, and if he wasn't, who cares? He wasn't any good. Saying that; if the Argos are able to turn this into a little bidding war with a couple of teams interested, maybe they can get a 1st rounder back? If I'm Winnipeg, and that was the price, I'd really have to consider thinking about that being worth it and getting a little Mc-Insurnace

[Wobbler]

If it's a bad trade because the Argos lost the ability to draft guys who were available at the time of those picks, then virtually every trade involving draft picks is a bad trade. Players getting outperformed by players drafted lower than them is one of the only predictable things about every CFL draft. Maybe there have been trades where the player selected with the acquired pick turned out to be the best available player, but I'd bet those are few and far between. The Willy trade -- where the picks turned out to be worse players than guys who could have been picked -- is just par for the course.
Really, Paul? Leaving aside the measurable outcomes (Willy vs. Heath), probability-limited assets have value. This topic should die, but I'm intrigued.

[paulwoods13]

Yes, draft picks have value, but it's only potential value until we see how the picks turn out. A lot of picks turn out to have lower value than later picks. My point was that if you're going to say trading picks is bad on the basis of who was chosen later (and who could have been chosen by you with the pick you traded), then there's a good chance most trades involving picks would be considered bad -- because it's common for later picks to outperform earlier picks. To test this one would simply need to look at every "acquired" pick made in any gibven draft and compare the player taken with the pick against all players taken later. I'd be willing to bet there would be few occasions when the picked player was clearly better than everyone else still available.

[Neely2005]

Ugh. This, still? Heath did quite a bit more for Winnipeg than Willy did for the Argos. Winnipeg's poor use of the #1 pick in 2017 doesn't devalue it. Daniel Petermann may not have set the world on fire, but they have him and we don't.

It was a bad trade... that is no longer relevant.

Well it's relevant if we trade MBT who is our current version of Drew Willy.

[doubleblue]

Ugh. This, still? Heath did quite a bit more for Winnipeg than Willy did for the Argos. Winnipeg's poor use of the #1 pick in 2017 doesn't devalue it. Daniel Petermann may not have set the world on fire, but they have him and we don't.

It was a bad trade... that is no longer relevant.

You are right on with this post.

[jerrym]

You are right on with this post.

And we don't know who the Argos would have picked with the #1 overall, good, bad or indifferent, if they still had had it.

[Argo57]

And we don't know who the Argos would have picked with the #1 overall, good, bad or indifferent, if they still had had it.

This is a key point Jerry, who knows who the Argos would have picked.
In hindsight the trade wasn’t the disaster I thought it was at the time given the fact the Argos won a Grey Cup the following season but it still was a desperate overpay for a mediocre at best QB.
Time to move on.

[argolio]

Jo Jo Heath (RIP) was the better CFL journeyman DB. He actually played in a Grey Cup. Two of them!

[argos1873]

Pretty good thing to show for it. (Which doesn't mean we should stop trying to develop, and keep, young QBs. But I'd make that trade again.)

Which trade are you talking about?

[paulwoods13]

Which trade are you talking about?

Read the post I was responding to. Not a trade, a tradeoff.

[ArgoRavi]

Jusdanis was `killed`by CFL GOB thinking when he was written-off after one year of some playing time at QB - with lots of struggles on a bad offence, but also some flashes of promise; he was asked to switch to slotback the next season with no other real shot to play QB in the CFL again; meanwhile OTOH - dozens and dozens of young import QBs who struggled a bit or else got little playing time, have and continue to, survived on CFL rosters, with repeat chances to be on rosters of multiple teams, and get at least several shots at playing time.

It`s the CFL way - wether some like it or not - all sorts of young American QBs get multiple shots at roster spots and at least some playing time; Canadian QBs are 3rd class citizens there - to be written-off with little shot or totally ignored to begin with, Don`t expect any change there soon; don`t expect O`Connor to play QB in the CFL.

To be fair, John Huard and J.I. Albrecht gave Jusdanis every opportunity to be the Argos' starter in 2000 training camp and preseason and he stunk. I believe he played the most in preseason too. Jusdanis retired after the preseason.

[ArgoRavi]

I`d take a 1st round pick and another player ( a promising young NI like receiver Peterman or DB Hallett) for either of Franklin or MacBeth

If Popp extracts anything more than a conditional draft pick for Franklin he should get a parade for it.

[ArgoRavi]

Jo Jo Heath (RIP) was the better CFL journeyman DB. He actually played in a Grey Cup. Two of them!

Jo Jo Heath could actually cover. There is a reason why TJ is no longer in the league.

[Argo57]

If Popp extracts anything more than a conditional draft pick for Franklin he should get a parade for it.

You are probably correct Ravi.

[OV Argo]

To be fair, John Huard and J.I. Albrecht gave Jusdanis every opportunity to be the Argos' starter in 2000 training camp and preseason and he stunk. I believe he played the most in preseason too. Jusdanis retired after the preseason.

Really É - interestin`Ravi - I guess i don`t recall enough about that Argo TC; so maybe I`ll have to take your word on the èvery opportunity`bit - LOL He retired after the pre-season despite being the favorite to be the starter ÉÉÉ - guess we see that all the time with import CFL QBs. LOL

[OV Argo]

If Popp extracts anything more than a conditional draft pick for Franklin he should get a parade for it.


Then the Bombers should have been handed the GC for getting lots for a total stiff QB like Drew Willy.

[Neely2005]

Bombers, Argos have discussed trade for Zach Collaros:

https://3downnation.com/2019/10/08/bombers-argos-have-discussed-trade-for-zach-collaros/

[Neely2005]

Matthew Scianitti on Twitter: "Multiple sources tell @TSN_Sports now former #Argos GM Jim Popp had a 1 year deal in place to bring Zach Collaros back to Toronto in 2020. Popp never got the chance to bring deal to MLSE. Popp also turned down inquiries from…

https://mobile.twitter.com/TSNScianitti/status/1181952816803467264?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1181952816803467264&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2F3downnation.com%2F2019%2F10% 2F09%2Fformer-argos-gm-jim-popp-had-2020-extension-in-place-with-qb-zach-collaros%2F

[Tobin Rote]

I was real jacked when they signed Fajardo... first recognizable QB signed from the NCAA in a long time. He never got a fair chance here though... for some reason.

[Argo57]

I was real jacked when they signed Fajardo... first recognizable QB signed from the NCAA in a long time. He never got a fair chance here though... for some reason.

Ricky Ray.

[Neely2005]

Collaros traded to Winnipeg:

http://www.tsn.ca/1.1378878

[jerrym]

Prukop and O'Connor showed some promise today but obviously need some development. They may or may not develop into first string QBs. All that I ask is that the Argos not spend time developing them into first string QBs only to let them go to other teams, as has happened with Harris, Fajardo, and Collaros. This is getting monotonous.

[paulwoods13]

All I ask is that the Argos not develop MBT into a first-string quarterback and let him go to another team. This is getting monotonous.

[ArgoRavi]

I was real jacked when they signed Fajardo... first recognizable QB signed from the NCAA in a long time. He never got a fair chance here though... for some reason.

In fairness, Fajardo was injured midway through his first season and was stuck behind Ricky Ray in his second. There is little question though that he wasn't a QB that Marc Trestman was keen on.

[Treblecharger1]

In fairness, Fajardo was injured midway through his first season and was stuck behind Ricky Ray in his second. There is little question though that he wasn't a QB that Marc Trestman was keen on.

What Ravi said none of these guys were going to stick around until Ricky Ray decided he was going to retire. Just like in Hamilton if they decided to stick with Masoli going forward then Evans is going to sign elsewhere.

[Shatto]

Going into free agency, 3 QB's should receive a lot of interest, if not resigned by present clubs.

. Masoli could be available if Evans gets Hamilton into the Grey Cup. Hamilton may try to avoid a QB controversy by trading Masoli. As the 2018 Eastern All-Star QB with 5209 passing yards, he should be the most sought after free agent QB. At 31 he is just approaching his most productive years.

. MBT is also 31 and many feel that his 4024 passing yards, would have been considerably higher, if he had the benefit of a good OC and especially if he played behind a good OL. He has received mixed reviews but even his harshest critics admire his toughness and determination under adverse conditions. Many also believe he could be a very effective starting QB. The question is do the Argos see him as their starting QB

. Arbuckle is only 26. After stepping in for the injured Mitchell he has proved to be a very good QB. He seems to have a huge upside and played enough games to dismiss any claims of being a one shot wonder. After being a starting QB, he may not want to be a long term back up to Mitchell.

A couple of other free agents who may get some attention:

.Nichols at 32, has been a long term starter and appears to have the confidence of the Winnipeg coaches. It is very likely he may be resigned by Winnipeg, especially if O'Shea remains as head coach.

.Collaros has shown the potential to be a very good starting QB but injuries have hampered him considerably and there is some doubt if he will ever return to the form he had a few years ago. Winnipeg could resign him but it is doubtful.

. Prukop --not as a starting QB but could be a very attractive candidate as a back up. He is very mobile, tough and appears to remain cool under pressure and has shown he can throw an accurate long pass. He has shown, albeit, in only 3 quarters, he could continue the line of QB's the Argos have let go only for them to star elsewhere.

The above is all very subjective and I'm sure other will have different opinions. I welcome your comments.



.

[paulwoods13]

I agree with most of your assessments, Shatto. Interestingly, Franklin is not on your list (or on mine). IMO he has played himself right out of the league.

It will be very interesting to see how things unfold. I can see Hamilton trying to re-sign Masoli, regardless of how well they do in post-season. They likely wouldn't want to give Masoli a big raise, but could sustain similar salaries to what he and Evans are making at the moment. Whether that would work for either guy is an open question. No idea whether Hayden Moore can develop into a decent QB but his performance in the last game was way below the performance Evans had in last year's last game against Mtl.

[AngeloV]

I agree with most of your assessments, Shatto. Interestingly, Franklin is not on your list (or on mine). IMO he has played himself right out of the league.

It will be very interesting to see how things unfold. I can see Hamilton trying to re-sign Masoli, regardless of how well they do in post-season. They likely wouldn't want to give Masoli a big raise, but could sustain similar salaries to what he and Evans are making at the moment. Whether that would work for either guy is an open question. No idea whether Hayden Moore can develop into a decent QB but his performance in the last game was way below the performance Evans had in last year's last game against Mtl.

I agree Franklin May have played himself out of the league, but when the dominos fall in a few weeks, I can see a scenario where Maas is BC’s HC and Franklin is re-united with Maas and Hervey to once again back up Mike Reilly.

[Argo57]

I agree Franklin May have played himself out of the league, but when the dominos fall in a few weeks, I can see a scenario where Maas is BC’s HC and Franklin is re-united with Maas and Hervey to once again back up Mike Reilly.

I still think Franklin has some value in a backup role, incredible how things have played out since the trade with Edmonton a couple of years ago.

[jerrym]

I still think Franklin has some value in a backup role, incredible how things have played out since the trade with Edmonton a couple of years ago.

Considering that every primary starting QB in the CFL missed some time this year and replacements had to be found, I expect Franklin will be in someone's TC and even if he gets cut, I would not be surprised to see him brought in to backup as QB injuries occur.

[Shatto]

With Hamilton and Winnipeg having made it to the Grey Cup, it raises some interesting speculations around QB's.

Evans has confirmed his status as a very effective starting QB, which could possibly make Masoli available through trade or free agency. If Hamilton believes Evans to be their QB of the future, they would obviously, prefer to trade Masoli rather than seeing him leave through free agency. In either case there could be a bidding war and the question is whether the Argos would be willing to pay the price.

Winnipeg has to decide if Nichols or Collaros is to be their number 1 QB next year. Originally, it appeared Nichols would have been the preferred choice but play of Collaros recently, has made that decision a little more difficult for them. If they do decide to sign Collaros, the 3rd round choice owed to the Argos, gets bumped up to a 1st rounder. If he is not offered a contract by Winnipeg, he would most likely look at returning to the Argos. Potentially, win-win situation for the Argos.

[Argo57]

With Hamilton and Winnipeg having made it to the Grey Cup, it raises some interesting speculations around QB's.

Evans has confirmed his status as a very effective starting QB, which could possibly make Masoli available through trade or free agency. If Hamilton believes Evans to be their QB of the future, they would obviously, prefer to trade Masoli rather than seeing him leave through free agency. In either case there could be a bidding war and the question is whether the Argos would be willing to pay the price.

Winnipeg has to decide if Nichols or Collaros is to be their number 1 QB next year. Originally, it appeared Nichols would have been the preferred choice but play of Collaros recently, has made that decision a little more difficult for them. If they do decide to sign Collaros, the 3rd round choice owed to the Argos, gets bumped up to a 1st rounder. If he is not offered a contract by Winnipeg, he would most likely look at returning to the Argos. Potentially, win-win situation for the Argos.

My understanding is the Argos get the 3rd round pick with the additional 1st round pick added if Collaros signs in Winnipeg.

[1971GreyCup]

With Hamilton and Winnipeg having made it to the Grey Cup, it raises some interesting speculations around QB's.

Evans has confirmed his status as a very effective starting QB, which could possibly make Masoli available through trade or free agency. If Hamilton believes Evans to be their QB of the future, they would obviously, prefer to trade Masoli rather than seeing him leave through free agency. In either case there could be a bidding war and the question is whether the Argos would be willing to pay the price.

Winnipeg has to decide if Nichols or Collaros is to be their number 1 QB next year. Originally, it appeared Nichols would have been the preferred choice but play of Collaros recently, has made that decision a little more difficult for them. If they do decide to sign Collaros, the 3rd round choice owed to the Argos, gets bumped up to a 1st rounder. If he is not offered a contract by Winnipeg, he would most likely look at returning to the Argos. Potentially, win-win situation for the Argos.

Win/win. Also, add to the fact that the Argos now know what Collaros still has to offer. The trade to Winnipeg provided clear evidence that Zach remains a number 1 QB in the league. Winnipeg appears to be in a very difficult position. The QB they don’t sign next year could be the one they wished they did. Also, could lose their HC and OC. I suspect they might have to promote their OC is O’Shea leaves.