Game Thread: Ottawa at Toronto Saturday, October 26th

[jerrym]

This should be an Argo win. After all, have the Argos ever found ways to lose a game?

[Mightygoose]

It's the relegation game.

[Neely2005]

Apparently they're finally going to be handing out those lunch bags that they were supposed to give out at the Family Day Game.

[gilthethrill]

Argos will steamroll Ottawa.

[Argo57]

This is the depressing time of the season when your team isn’t in the playoffs.
A real piss off TBH!

[Neely2005]

This is the depressing time of the season when your team isn’t in the playoffs.
A real piss off TBH!

Especially when 6 of 9 teams make the playoffs.

[Argo57]

Especially when 6 of 9 teams make the playoffs.

Very true👍

[Antwon]

They say all three QB's will get playing time. I hope O'Conner and Prukop get significant time. Not sure why MBT gets the start, but hopefully no more than the first quarter.

[argolio]

They say all three QB's will get playing time. I hope O'Conner and Prukop get significant time. Not sure why MBT gets the start, but hopefully no more than the first quarter.They probably want him to hit 4,000 yards (needs 174) which would be a minor miracle for a QB on a team this poor and who didn't start every game.

[Argo57]

They probably want him to hit 4,000 yards (needs 174) which would be a minor miracle for a QB on a team this poor and who didn't start every game.

Pretty good result for a “crappy” QB on a bad football team😛

[paulwoods13]

MBT actually has a chance to lead the league in passing yards and passing TDs. He's tops in the latter, and very close in the former. And he has basically played about 12 games and a bit, when you account for Franklin getting four starts and MBT sitting out half of one of his own starts. It's a pretty remarkable accomplishment, especially considering how bad the o-line has been most of the year and how poor the offensive game planning seemed to be at times. He's also had a lot of passes dropped but I don't know if we've been any worse than other teams in that regard. I would love him to get enough yards and TDs to end the year leading those categories, but I also want to see MOC and DP each play at least two quarters in the next two games.

[gilthethrill]

MBT actually has a chance to lead the league in passing yards and passing TDs. He's tops in the latter, and very close in the former. And he has basically played about 12 games and a bit, when you account for Franklin getting four starts and MBT sitting out half of one of his own starts. It's a pretty remarkable accomplishment, especially considering how bad the o-line has been most of the year and how poor the offensive game planning seemed to be at times. He's also had a lot of passes dropped but I don't know if we've been any worse than other teams in that regard. I would love him to get enough yards and TDs to end the year leading those categories, but I also want to see MOC and DP each play at least two quarters in the next two games.

MBT will be a sought after FA in the off season.. .could this be his last start at BMO Field wearing the Blue on Blue of the Argonauts?

[Argo57]

MBT will be a sought after FA in the off season.. .could this be his last start at BMO Field wearing the Blue on Blue of the Argonauts?

I agree, I’m sure other teams have taken notice.
You wonder what he could accomplish behind a good O-Line and a decent OC.

[gilthethrill]

I agree, I’m sure other teams have taken notice.
You wonder what he could accomplish behind a good O-Line and a decent OC.

I think his personal stats would be similar since he could lean on a run game.

[Argo57]

I think his personal stats would be similar since he could lean on a run game.

Yes, and he would certainly win more games.

[paulwoods13]

As I've said before, I really hope we re-sign MBT and bring him to camp as no worse than one of two legit contenders for the starting role. If he goes elsewhere, he's going to make us regret letting him go.

[gilthethrill]

As I've said before, I really hope we re-sign MBT and bring him to camp as no worse than one of two legit contenders for the starting role. If he goes elsewhere, he's going to make us regret letting him go.

Good to see Cody Fajardo remaining in the CFL instead of trying out the XFL as speculated. Hopefully MBT will stay North as well. There was an article that came out recently stating XFL salaries are not as high as they were originally advertised.

[jerrym]

Good to see Cody Fajardo remaining in the CFL instead of trying out the XFL as speculated. Hopefully MBT will stay North as well. There was an article that came out recently stating XFL salaries are not as high as they were originally advertised.

There won't be a mass exodus or even a moderate one to the XFL because of the lower salaries there, especially for first string QBs, and the fact CFL free agency starts after the beginning of the XFL season, in addition to the fact that the XFL has decided not to pursue players currently under contract.





Game activation fees and victory bonuses are $1,685 and $2,222, respectively. Accordingly, a player may earn up to $4,947 per game week.
In total, the average XFL salary will be approximately $55,000 for players who remain on the active list of a team throughout the season, taking into account potential activation fees and bonuses that may be earned.
All game activation fees or victory bonuses due to a player will be paid on the regularly scheduled bi-weekly pay date. The 2019-20 XFL payroll schedule follows below.
Effective December 4, 2019, players will be eligible to participate in the XFL’s health insurance program – which includes medical, dental, and vision plans – at no charge for a player’s individual coverage. Players who are interested also may participate in the XFL’s 401(k) plan.

If at any time after the conclusion of the 2020 XFL championship game (April 25, 2020) a player receives and chooses to accept a written offer to sign a contract with an NFL team, the player will be free to play competitive football for such NFL team and the player’s XFL contract will be terminated. ...

As full-time employees, XFL players will be paid on a bi-weekly basis ($2,080 USD) from December 4 through May 31, 2020, if they remain on an XFL team for the complete 2020 season. A player’s first pay check will be issued on Friday, December 20, 2019.

For a salary comparison, according to sources, the average CFL player made around $84,000 CAD in 2018. Excluding quarterbacks, athletes from the United States earned approximately $93,000 CAD and Canadians $80,000 CAD. CFL players are paid after every game played. While the XFL’s approximate salary cap is $4 million, while the CFL’s is over $5.2 million.

The CFL reintroduced the NFL window in July 2018. ...

The XFL had decided not to pursue players currently under contract in the CFL — active or practice roster. If a pact is discontinued then a player could be considered for the XFL. That means pending CFL free agents won’t be eligible to sign with XFL teams until mid-February. Vince McMahon’s league is scheduled to kick-off one week after the Super Bowl on February 8, 2020.



https://3downnation.com/2019/10/17/comparing-xfl-salaries-cap-and-nfl-options-with-the-cfl/

[Argo57]

This will be our third straight game watching Ottawa (saw them playing Hamilton last weekend), Argonauts should beat them.
I am looking forward to seeing the young QB’s (particularly O’Connor) get some playing time, should be interesting.

[Shatto]

Starting MBT is counterproductive in the greater scheme of things. The team should be determining if either Prukop or O'Connor are ready to take a step forward in their QB careers. The team knows what MBT is able to do and playing him in the next two games won't change that.

[Rich]

Starting MBT is counterproductive in the greater scheme of things. The team should be determining if either Prukop or O'Connor are ready to take a step forward in their QB careers. The team knows what MBT is able to do and playing him in the next two games won't change that.

This is a 3-13 football team rewarding a player by letting him pad his stats -- even though he may not be back next year -- instead of taking as much time as possible auditioning fresh new talent for next year. Mind boggling.

[paulwoods13]

Like it or not, valid or not, the coaches and players still want to win. Best chance of doing so is with MBT playing. And playing him some of the game also keeps in play the possibility of re-signing him, moreso than sitting him would. He has leverage in negots, and the team may be trying to reduce it a bit by keeping him aligned with the org. That said, I expect he will play no more than half the game.

[gilthethrill]

This is a 3-13 football team rewarding a player by letting him pad his stats -- even though he may not be back next year -- instead of taking as much time as possible auditioning fresh new talent for next year. Mind boggling.

By the same token should SJ Green and Armanti Edwards sit out in favour of a PR receiver?

[lazycro]

Well, definitely some auditions going on this week

[argolio]

It's perfectly fine to give some of our young players more reps, but these last two games are meaningless in the standings for us and or opponents. I don't think it would mean a lot for next year if O'Connor was great or terrible. That's what training camp is for, especially if we have a new coaching staff.

[paulwoods13]

It's perfectly fine to give some of our young players more reps, but these last two games are meaningless in the standings for us and or opponents. I don't think it would mean a lot for next year if O'Connor was great or terrible. That's what training camp is for, especially if we have a new coaching staff.

That is a very good point. We should all resist the urge to anoint MOC (or DP, for that matter) as the saviour in waiting, or a hopelessly out-of-his-league bum, based on these next two games. Remember how some of us felt about James Franklin after his first start in the CFL (in a game that actually mattered)? Marvin Graves anyone? One-offs can be deceiving as hell.

[GregR]

I love 4pm Saturday games!

[OV Argo]

By the same token should SJ Green and Armanti Edwards sit out in favour of a PR receiver?


Basically - yes; especially vet Green who has nothing left to prove; get as many roster receivers who have not had much shot as much playing time as possible - like to see Noel and Gittens playing with passes directed their way.

[Rich]

That is a very good point. We should all resist the urge to anoint MOC (or DP, for that matter) as the saviour in waiting, or a hopelessly out-of-his-league bum, based on these next two games.

You are right, it matters very little how MOC plays, or what kind of defences he faces. What is important is that he gets game experience. He will definitely be on the QB depth chart next year, and so the more experience he can get this year, the better off both he and the team will be, no matter who the starter ends up being (after tonight i’ll put my money on Collaros)

[jerrym]

Here's the Argos depth chart:

https://d3ham790trbkqy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2016/06/Oct262019vsOTTpdf.pdf

[jerrym]

The Argo offence is hardly setting the world on fire so far but the Ottawa offence is truly woeful.

[jerrym]

MBT saved from a terrible pass and interception by a too many men on the field penalty.

[Antwon]

MBT is playing horribly! No touch on deep passes. Not sure why we need to see him today????

[jerrym]

Argos are woken up by an Ottawa TD and respond with MBT marching down the field for a TD. Worthy is showing some promise as a WR/KR.

[jerrym]

Prukop looked like he knew what he was doing on the drive that led to his first TD pass. Oullette also looking promising for next year.

[jerrym]

Prukop showing more ingenuity in seven minutes of play than MBT did in a half of action.

[jerrym]

A couple of O'Connor's passes weren't perfect spirals but he looked in command of the huddle in leading the Argos down the field to a TD.

[Nob]

If only they could play Ottawa every week.......

Prukop looked good in the third quarter. It’s the same question that I asked last week - if he had 18 starts like MBT did then where would he be in his career?

Good start for O’Connor, but I would have thought that he would have learned from Prukop to not throw your first career td pass to Smith if you want tho keep the ball.......lol.

[Stevoman]

A win is a win and it feels good! Happy for Prukop and thought he looked very solid. Glad to see O'Connor get in and both QB's capitalize on the short field and get some early success. Today was a nice reward to the Argo faithful who were at the game.

[Will]

The Argonauts swept the season series over the Redblacks and outscored them 113-47 in the three games. Argos averaged just under 38 points per game against them and allowed just under 16 points. The Argos are 1-13 against the rest of the league, and if my math is correct has averaged just 17 points for in those games and 35 points against.

I liked what I saw from Dakota Prukop, he provides that improvisational element that MBT cannot necessarily.

Also, liked what I saw from Onyeka, Kwemo and Gilchrist on the defensive side of the bsll.

[argotom]

There is absolutely no way the team can sell MBT coming in next year to compete for a starter position.
Just like last year, the team has to go the FA route and unlike last year to appease what is left of the fan base and us season ticket holders we have to sign Masoli to be our "saviour".
Bring Prokup and O'Connor only back to battle for either one or both spots.
MBT is done.

[Blue90]

There is absolutely no way the team can sell MBT coming in next year to compete for a starter position.
Just like last year, the team has to go the FA route and unlike last year to appease what is left of the fan base and us season ticket holders we have to sign Masoli to be our "saviour".
Bring Prokup and O'Connor only back to battle for either one or both spots.
MBT is done.

Hopefully this is the last time we have to see MBT.

Both of the young QBs are far better and more accurate passers. Why weren't these two guys given a chance earlier this year, instead of MBT and Franklin?

[argotom]

Hopefully this is the last time we have to see MBT.

Both of the young QBs are far better and more accurate passers. Why weren't these two guys given a chance earlier this year, instead of MBT and Franklin?

Absolutely, most of us here were calling for these two to see starter action earlier in the season even after the 0-6 start, most definitely when it became apparent this was a disasterous season.
Chamblin like Trestman last year, has been stubborn beyond belief in giving the two horrendous QB's all of the playing time.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

O'Connor should get the start next week. Worthy, Ouellette and Smith played well.
I would like to see Damion Jeanpiere and Kurleigh Gittens get playing time at receiver next week.

[Will]

Prukop should get the start next week.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Absolutely, most of us here were calling for these two to see starter action earlier in the season even after the 0-6 start, most definitely when it became apparent this was a disasterous season.
Chamblin like Trestman last year, has been stubborn beyond belief in giving the two horrendous QB's all of the playing time.
This has been a pattern throughout the CFL for the past several years.Teams seem reluctant to pull starters when games seem out of reach.Hamilton kept Dane Evans and Brandon Banks in Today's game late into the fourth quarter.Mike O'Shea kept Matt Nichols in games that were decided blowouts twice this season.

[argotom]

This has been a pattern throughout the CFL for the past several years.Teams seem reluctant to pull starters when games seem out of reach.Hamilton kept Dane Evans and Brandon Banks in Today's game late into the fourth quarter.Mike O'Shea kept Matt Nichols in games that were decided blowouts twice this season.

True, but Hamilton and Winnipeg have winning seasons and are in the playoffs.
The Argos have been pathetic for the past two years so there should be no excuses and reason to play the two stiff QB's as long as they have.

[doubleblue]

Prokop looked good, was kind of pleasently surprised with his play after seeing him play earlier. Just shows that some guys take longer to to get it. I would like to see more of him next week for sure. O'Conner looked good his first series, but then the O Line seemed to forget how to pass block. I wonder if the Coaches wanted to see how O'Conner handled a pass rush. They wouldn't do that would they? Lol
But he has promise needs a bit more time running QB sneaks and mop up time as a back up IMO. Something about a Canadian QB that gets people interested, but then they have to produce. Could O'Conner and Rourke be a drawing card down the road in Toronto?
Also happy to see the young Canadians get some playing time and not look out of place. Kwemo looked quicker than I thought he was, I would like to see more of him in game action. Onyeka made some nice tackles and is a solid back up and ST guy. DE Robbie Smith got back in after being set out for a few games. He's going to be a starter.
Ouelette looks like he did at Ohio. Honest tough down hill runner who has a burst if he gets a hole. Maybe he can help recruit Nathan Rourke.

[paulwoods13]

Our stiff QB is likely going to lead the league in td passes and passing yards. Sure hope we don't bother trying to sign him to a new contract.

[Argo57]

Our stiff QB is likely going to lead the league in td passes and passing yards. Sure hope we don't bother trying to sign him to a new contract.

If the Argos don’t I sure a couple of other teams would love to have him.

[argotom]

Our stiff QB is likely going to lead the league in td passes and passing yards. Sure hope we don't bother trying to sign him to a new contract.

Statistics are meaningless when they do no equate to wins.
Also, a vast majority of the yards for MBT was during garbage time when the team was way behind and the other D was playing lose not to include a ton of underneath throws.
Milt on the TSN panel after the game also said there is no chance the Argos can go with MBT for next year, as the team has to move on.

[doubleblue]

Statistics are meaningless when they do no equate to wins.
Also, a vast majority of the yards for MBT was during garbage time when the team was way behind and the other D was playing lose not to include a ton of underneath throws.
Milt on the TSN panel after the game also said there is no chance the Argos can go with MBT for next year, as the team has to move on.
What does Milt know about QB's. Lol

But seriously there has to be a lot of evaluation of all the free agent QB's by the Argos new powers that be. Namely John Murphy and Pinball, who is suppose to have the last word. I agree with Milt, I think they have to move on. Not because MBT hasn't played well this year as he has at times. But because of the negativity that has risen around the QB situation this year. The team needs a fresh start with a new QB and new Coaches to get rid of the bad taste created this year.
Could Dakota Prukop be considered. Maybe, if he is allowed to play against Hamilton next week and does well again there should be a lot of questions why he wasn't in there sooner. There will be several free agent QB's on the market this off season with Masoli, Collaros, Evans, Arbuckle the top of the list IMO. Guys who can scramble and pass as well. Maybe one of them and Prukop with O'Conner in the bull pen should be considered as the way to go into next season.
Of course I would still love to see Nathan Rourke drafted to have in the pipeline.

[Argo57]

What does Milt know about QB's. Lol

But seriously there has to be a lot of evaluation of all the free agent QB's by the Argos new powers that be. Namely John Murphy and Pinball, who is suppose to have the last word. I agree with Milt, I think they have to move on. Not because MBT hasn't played well this year as he has at times. But because of the negativity that has risen around the QB situation this year. The team needs a fresh start with a new QB and new Coaches to get rid of the bad taste created this year.
Could Dakota Prukop be considered. Maybe, if he is allowed to play against Hamilton next week and does well again there should be a lot of questions why he wasn't in there sooner. There will be several free agent QB's on the market this off season with Masoli, Collaros, Evans, Arbuckle the top of the list IMO. Guys who can scramble and pass as well. Maybe one of them and Prukop with O'Conner in the bull pen should be considered as the way to go into next season.
Of course I would still love to see Nathan Rourke drafted to have in the pipeline.

Dane Evans has another 2 years to go on his contract.

[Shatto]

It is dangerous to make assumptions based on a one-off, especially if the one-off is only one quarter but Prukop probably played the best quarter that any Argo QB has played this year and that can't be ignored. He demonstrated mobility, creativity and a nice passing touch. In one quarter he put up 17 points, which except for Worthy dropping a sure catch, probably would have been 21 points. It should also be noted that in the next quarter (4th) he was on the punt teams, showing his toughness as a player. We tend to think of him as inexperienced but he has been practicing with the team for three years, in his role as a backup QB.

MBT performed as he has all year, with determination and toughness but he also demonstrated some of his deficiencies, such as a real inconsistency with the long pass. This is not to take anything away from MBT's fine year under adverse conditions but do we really have confidence that he is the starter we want leading this team next year? Personally, I have reservations but others would obviously disagree.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained in playing MBT in the final game. Prukop and O'Connor should each play a full half in the upcoming game. If Prukop plays similar to today's game, IMO, the team would be very foolish to let him leave. If the team is not careful, it could be discarding the next "Fajardo" for another team to benefit. This year, Evans, Fajardo and Arbuckle have proven, we have backups in this league that have the potential to lead their teams to a successful season. Hamilton, the way they are playing, would be a huge challenge for any QB. It will be interesting the see how Prukop and O'Connor do against them.

[Nob]

Our stiff QB is likely going to lead the league in td passes and passing yards. Sure hope we don't bother trying to sign him to a new contract.

Yes, he did lead the league in passing td’s this season, but this season is rather unusual with all of the QB’s that went on the IR this year. It’s not as if MBT threw 50+ td’s. I will also acknowledge that he played without the benefit of a lot of things - good coaching, a good OL, a good running game, etc....

The other thing that I noticed today is that he threw deep a lot more today, and on my count he was 1/6 on the deep throws.

The lack of a large sample size will make it difficult to know what the Argos have with Prukop and O’Connor.

The only thing that we do know is that Franklin was not the answer. It will be an interesting off season to see what happens at the QB spot, in Toronto, and around the league.

[Rich]

I think they have to move on. Not because MBT hasn't played well this year as he has at times. But because of the negativity that has risen around the QB situation this year. The team needs a fresh start with a new QB and new Coaches to get rid of the bad taste created this year.

I agree with all of this. MBT has earned my respect this year, he is a gamer for sure. But putting aside his strengths and weaknesses, the guy has unfortunately become the living breathing embodiment of not one but two of the most gawdawful seasons in recent memory. It’s not his fault but we gotta move on.

[argolio]

If only they could play Ottawa every week.......

Prukop looked good in the third quarter. It’s the same question that I asked last week - if he had 18 starts like MBT did then where would he be in his career?MBT hasn't started every game.

Prukop has had two mediocre camps in a row, and was nowhere near the starter's job. If Bridge's contract wasn't slotted for him to get #2 money, Prukop may have been cut.


Great to get the win, reach a few statistical milestones, and see some young players get experience. But the idea that a nothing game against the worst team in the league meant much beyond professional pride is pretty ridiculous.

[Rich]

It is dangerous to make assumptions based on a one-off, especially if the one-off is only one quarter but Prukop probably played the best quarter that any Argo QB has played this year and that can't be ignored. He demonstrated mobility, creativity and a nice passing touch. In one quarter he put up 17 points, which except for Worthy dropping a sure catch, probably would have been 21 points. It should also be noted that in the next quarter (4th) he was on the punt teams, showing his toughness as a player. We tend to think of him as inexperienced but he has been practicing with the team for three years, in his role as a backup QB.

MBT performed as he has all year, with determination and toughness but he also demonstrated some of his deficiencies, such as a real inconsistency with the long pass. This is not to take anything away from MBT's fine year under adverse conditions but do we really have confidence that he is the starter we want leading this team next year? Personally, I have reservations but others would obviously disagree.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained in playing MBT in the final game. Prukop and O'Connor should each play a full half in the upcoming game. If Prukop plays similar to today's game, IMO, the team would be very foolish to let him leave. If the team is not careful, it could be discarding the next "Fajardo" for another team to benefit. This year, Evans, Fajardo and Arbuckle have proven, we have backups in this league that have the potential to lead their teams to a successful season. Hamilton, the way they are playing, would be a huge challenge for any QB. It will be interesting the see how Prukop and O'Connor do against them.

I agree with every word of this. I would add that Prukop showed an arm strength that I didn’t think he had on a couple of throws over the middle, and he showed a real command of the play. Very impressive.

I thought MOC looked a little nervous and tight, but he made a couple of great reads and showed a lot of toughness. He’s got all the tools.

Pending their performance next week, count me among those who would be happy to see Prukop and MOC as the #2 and #3 QBs behind a new #1 guy.

[Blue90]

Our stiff QB is likely going to lead the league in td passes and passing yards. Sure hope we don't bother trying to sign him to a new contract.

A couple of differences with the 2 new QBs vs MBT....

1. they can scramble to avoid a loss

2. they are more accurate with the deep pass

I think you would agree that this was obvious in today's game.

MBT could be a CFL backup, but not a starting QB.

[ArgoFan1]

I cannot understand all the hate for MBT. With such a poor team and horrid O line to protect him, he has put up good numbers. Forget about the losses, since at least four of those are directly blamed on the kickers. Several directly blamed on a defence that gave up last minute scores. MBT doesn't call the plays. I know he has some problem with the deep ball, so I keep asking why is he making those plays? He started the game great with 10 to 20 yard throws and then they went with about 5 straight throws way down field, for no reason. If the OC had stuck with what works, then MBT would have looked even better.
The other two QBs were impressive, considering their stories, but you have to realize who they were playing against. Even next week in Hamilton... the Ticats will be resting a lot of their starters. It is a nothing game for them, so don't make such a big deal of any numbers those QBs put up next week either.
MBT is really in his first season, and any time you can get that kind of production from a first year guy, it is something not to be ignored. I don't want to see him just thrown away simply because the team wants to clean house. I'm glad PInball is the new GM and not some of the posters here.

[paulwoods13]

It's getting tiresome answering the same arguments over and over, but here goes, again.

1. QB win-loss record is the dumbest "stat" around. Football is the ultimate team sport, and games are won or lost for many reasons, almost never solely because of how the QB played. To suggest we move on from MBT because he has a bad won-lost record completely ignores the many things that were done terribly by other players, positions and coaches the past two years. Bo Levi Mitchell would have had a losing record in this system and with this roster.

2. Yes, there were QB injuries elsewhere that reduced the stats of other QBs. MBT also sat on the bench for four games while Franklin was playing, and the better part of two other halves (vs. Edm and yesterday). If you're going to discount his stats because of playing time, discount it across the board.

3. No, he did not accumulate "most" of his stats in garbage time, unless you want to consider the entire season garbage time. He did roll up big numbers after one game (at Wpg) had already been decided (decided because of terrible play and coaching by others, it must be noted). But other than that, how many "garbage-time/defence-not-really-trying" yards and TDs did he rack up?

4. To suggest he can't scramble and run for positive yards when under duresss ignores evidence we have seen this season.

5. It was sadly predictable that whatever Prukop and O'Connor did yesterday would be overrated/overstated by fans. They each played one quarter against the worst team in the league, a team that has clearly lost its will. Good on them for doing what we wanted them to do, but to suggest that it would be a big mistake to let Prukop leave as a free agent after such a small amount of impressive playing time (even if he does it again next week, even if he does it for a whole half or even a whole game) is as silly as suggesting he should have been cut for playing so terribly in Edmonton.

6. The Argos get blasted constantly (often by their own fans) for not developing QBs, and for letting QBs go elsewhere on those rare occasions when they do develop them. We now have a QB who has started 21 games in this league, has played well enough to lead the league in TD passes and be among the league leaders in yardage, despite the handicap of a bad o-line, poor offensive schemes both years, virtually no running game and a bunch of receivers who are decent but slow. And now fans are saying we should let him go elsewhere. Is irony truly as dead as it seems to be?

[Argo57]

Statistics are meaningless when they do no equate to wins.
Also, a vast majority of the yards for MBT was during garbage time when the team was way behind and the other D was playing lose not to include a ton of underneath throws.
Milt on the TSN panel after the game also said there is no chance the Argos can go with MBT for next year, as the team has to move on.

Prukop and O’Connor both played pretty well last night which will give them valuable experience and of course confidence.
Regarding MBT he has played most of the season for the Argonauts and under difficult circumstances has performed admirably to say the least, to simply shrug this off as “garbage time” is total BS.
Sure you can argue the merits of MBT as a QB but he is full marks for the statistics he has managed to achieve this season, last time I checked wins/losses are a team statistic and as commented on all season this team (which includes the coaching staff) has been awful in 2019 which isn’t one players fault.
In fact I would say MBT has been far from the Argos biggest problem this season.
The Argonauts roster has some good talent (including MBT) but is sadly lacking in key areas (O-Line, D Secondary and coaching) which has had a direct effect on this seasons results.
Put MBT on a team with a good O-Line with a decent game plan provided by his OC and he would be even more successful in the CFL.

[Argo57]

It's getting tiresome answering the same arguments over and over, but here goes, again.

1. QB win-loss record is the dumbest "stat" around. Football is the ultimate team sport, and games are won or lost for many reasons, almost never solely because of how the QB played. To suggest we move on from MBT because he has a bad won-lost record completely ignores the many things that were done terribly by other players, positions and coaches the past two years. Bo Levi Mitchell would have had a losing record in this system and with this roster.

2. Yes, there were QB injuries elsewhere that reduced the stats of other QBs. MBT also sat on the bench for four games while Franklin was playing, and the better part of two other halves (vs. Edm and yesterday). If you're going to discount his stats because of playing time, discount it across the board.

3. No, he did not accumulate "most" of his stats in garbage time, unless you want to consider the entire season garbage time. He did roll up big numbers after one game (at Wpg) had already been decided (decided because of terrible play and coaching by others, it must be noted). But other than that, how many "garbage-time/defence-not-really-trying" yards and TDs did he rack up?

4. To suggest he can't scramble and run for positive yards when under duresss ignores evidence we have seen this season.

5. It was sadly predictable that whatever Prukop and O'Connor did yesterday would be overrated/overstated by fans. They each played one quarter against the worst team in the league, a team that has clearly lost its will. Good on them for doing what we wanted them to do, but to suggest that it would be a big mistake to let Prukop leave as a free agent after such a small amount of impressive playing time (even if he does it again next week, even if he does it for a whole half or even a whole game) is as silly as suggesting he should have been cut for playing so terribly in Edmonton.

6. The Argos get blasted constantly (often by their own fans) for not developing QBs, and for letting QBs go elsewhere on those rare occasions when they do develop them. We now have a QB who has started 21 games in this league, has played well enough to lead the league in TD passes and be among the league leaders in yardage, despite the handicap of a bad o-line, poor offensive schemes both years, virtually no running game and a bunch of receivers who are decent but slow. And now fans are saying we should let him go elsewhere. Is irony truly as dead as it seems to be?

^^^^^^^^^👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍^^^^^^^^^

[Argo57]

I cannot understand all the hate for MBT. With such a poor team and horrid O line to protect him, he has put up good numbers. Forget about the losses, since at least four of those are directly blamed on the kickers. Several directly blamed on a defence that gave up last minute scores. MBT doesn't call the plays. I know he has some problem with the deep ball, so I keep asking why is he making those plays? He started the game great with 10 to 20 yard throws and then they went with about 5 straight throws way down field, for no reason. If the OC had stuck with what works, then MBT would have looked even better.
The other two QBs were impressive, considering their stories, but you have to realize who they were playing against. Even next week in Hamilton... the Ticats will be resting a lot of their starters. It is a nothing game for them, so don't make such a big deal of any numbers those QBs put up next week either.
MBT is really in his first season, and any time you can get that kind of production from a first year guy, it is something not to be ignored. I don't want to see him just thrown away simply because the team wants to clean house. I'm glad PInball is the new GM and not some of the posters here.

Bingo👍

[Golden Fleece]

I don't hate MBT, but one big eye test for me is the ability to throw the deep ball and he certainly wasn't showing it yesterday. One game sample size I know, but I remember Trevor Harris passing that eye test for me in his early days with the Argos and his accomplishments since then have not surprised me. MBT's penchant for throwing multiple picks in a game are concerning as well. As for next year, I trust coach and manager evaluations more than every fan (including myself) combined. They have the information about arm strength, accuracy, and knowledge of play and game plan execution that we don't.

[Golden Fleece]

Good start for O’Connor, but I would have thought that he would have learned from Prukop to not throw your first career td pass to Smith if you want tho keep the ball.......lol.

Funny. Not sure if you saw during the game that they got the ball back for him and gave the fan a different football as a replacement.

In other news, it seemed like there were way more than 12 000 fans at the game yesterday. Assuming I'm right, then paid attendance was supplemented with a number of freebies. If so, I'm glad they did that. For a meaningless late October game the atmosphere was pretty good. I saw junior football teams out in groups. I also saw the most diverse audience I remember seeing at an Argos game. This is key to building for the future. The Raptors have built a strong base amongst well-heeled first and second generation Canadians. The Argos best opportunity to rebuild the fan base is to continue reaching out to new Canadians looking for economical family entertainment.

Even though gear was 40% off it was still great to see young fans wearing what looked like their first piece of Argo gear. They start wearing that to school and the mall and visibility increases.

The fan appreciation seemed to work really well too. My son got a free cap and scarf and he's been wearing the scarf around the house since last night. He's a baseball player and likes going to Jays games, but when we arrived at BMO yesterday he said seeing the Argos is still his favourite thing. By the end of the game when he received a signed player's glove I felt like I was looking at an Argos fan for life.

[Will]

The initiative for new Canadians was an excellent one!

[paulwoods13]

I don't hate MBT, but one big eye test for me is the ability to throw the deep ball and he certainly wasn't showing it yesterday. One game sample size I know, but I remember Trevor Harris passing that eye test for me in his early days with the Argos and his accomplishments since then have not surprised me. MBT's penchant for throwing multiple picks in a game are concerning as well.


His deep throws yesterday in the first quarter were mostly off target, but he did complete a 45-yarder to Smith in the second Q, and he didn't rack up 198 yards in a half all on YAC. Deep accuracy is not his strong suit, but it is something that can be worked on, and given his improvements in other areas this season, it seems entirely possible he can get better on deep throws as well. Given a straight-up choice between him and Harris right now, I would probably take MBT. Harris has been wildly inconsistent during his career -- lights out at times (especially his first eight or so games as an Argo starter), sub-par at other times. MBT at least seems to be on a mostly straight trajectory upward. All QBs throw interceptions, and I don't see MBT as being any worse than average in that regard. Vernon Adams, whom I assume most fans would take over MBT, threw four picks two weeks ago and has thrown the same number as MBT this season on 78 fewer attempts. Among the top 10 QBs yardage-wise, MBT has the fifth-best INT percentage (behind Harris, Fajardo, Arbuckle and Nichols and ahead of Mitchell, Adams, Evans Reilly and Davis).

[ArgoZ]

A great finish to a crappy season! Loved seeing our backups get there first TD’s! Ottawa was terrible, so I’m sure that helped things. Congrats to the fans who won a game worn jersey! I liked that they randomly drew winners rather than have us fight over T-shirts. It was better when we went on the field last year and met the players though.

MBT is serviceable, (I find myself saying this every week). His deep balls always concerning. At this point, it is the only thing holding me back from being OK having him as the starter next season. When teams don’t respect the deep ball, we are going to see cover 1, maybe even cover 0 and their going to blitz the heck out of us. Especially when we don’t have blazing speed at receiver. I think that’s going to be the game plan next season for opposing teams. Make MBT beat you deep.

I’m not bothered by Mederios, as an emergency replacement. Dee, where are U? Kicking is a major disadvantage for this team in all aspects. We are going to lose games directly because of this next season, if not fixed.

When was the last time an Argo Rookie threw a TD pass in his first game! That’s was great to witness.

[ArgoZ]

His deep throws yesterday in the first quarter were mostly off target, but he did complete a 45-yarder to Smith in the second Q, and he didn't rack up 198 yards in a half all on YAC. Deep accuracy is not his strong suit, but it is something that can be worked on, and given his improvements in other areas this season, it seems as being any worse.

The Smith throw was under thrown, would have been a TD in stride. Edwards TD also under thrown. Rarely do we ever see MBT put the touch on the ball to hit someone in stride. His TD’s would be even higher if he did. What’s encouraging is it’s not arm strength, which leads me to believe it is possible to improve.

[paulwoods13]

The Smith throw was under thrown, would have been a TD in stride. Edwards TD also under thrown. Rarely do we ever see MBT put the touch on the ball to hit someone in stride. His TD’s would be even higher if he did. What’s encouraging is it’s not arm strength, which leads me to believe it is possible to improve.

I'd love to see a stat (maybe DTonSC tracks this) of deep balls thrown perfectly (i.e. receiver hit in stride, no challenge associated with making the catch). I would be willing to bet that every QB in football (maybe not Aaron Rogers) makes receivers work for the catch a fair bit of the time. It ain't easy to throw a perfect deep ball. We were spoiled by Ricky Ray, but even some of his passes were under- and over-thrown at times.

[paulwoods13]

Serious question for those who continue to describe MBT as a good backup but not a starter, who are the nine QBs in the league right now who are clearly better than him? If there aren't at least nine, then he's a starting-calibre QB. IMO the number is quite a bit below nine.

[Mike Hogan]

Funny. Not sure if you saw during the game that they got the ball back for him and gave the fan a different football as a replacement.

In other news, it seemed like there were way more than 12 000 fans at the game yesterday. Assuming I'm right, then paid attendance was supplemented with a number of freebies. If so, I'm glad they did that. For a meaningless late October game the atmosphere was pretty good. I saw junior football teams out in groups. I also saw the most diverse audience I remember seeing at an Argos game. This is key to building for the future. The Raptors have built a strong base amongst well-heeled first and second generation Canadians. The Argos best opportunity to rebuild the fan base is to continue reaching out to new Canadians looking for economical family entertainment.

Even though gear was 40% off it was still great to see young fans wearing what looked like their first piece of Argo gear. They start wearing that to school and the mall and visibility increases.

The fan appreciation seemed to work really well too. My son got a free cap and scarf and he's been wearing the scarf around the house since last night. He's a baseball player and likes going to Jays games, but when we arrived at BMO yesterday he said seeing the Argos is still his favourite thing. By the end of the game when he received a signed player's glove I felt like I was looking at an Argos fan for life.

This post made me unbelievably happy. Thank you.

[Shatto]

Hopefully no one has inferred from my posts any "hate" for MBT, in fact it is just the opposite. I have great respect and admiration for what he has accomplished under great difficulties this year. The issue here, is whether one believes he is the starter we want, for next year or whether he is a more than capable backup. There is considerable difference of opinion and mine is the latter. Hopefully we can respect each other's opinions without resorting to aggravating each other, after all the bottom line is we all want the same thing ---a winning team.

As far as Prukop is concerned, one has to agree much more is needed before we would see him as a starter but regardless of that, one has to be greatly impressed with his performance on Saturday. It was not just he outplayed MBT in the one quarter he played but it was probably the best quarter an Argo QB has played since Ray. His upside is much greater than MBT's but whether he reaches that upside, only time will tell but I don't think it is "silly" to suggest the team might well regret letting him go, especially if he turns out to be another Fajardo.

Let's just agree to respect each other's opinion as we all want the same thing in the end.

[paulwoods13]

OK, but shouldn't the exact same thing be said about MBT? That is, we might regret letting him go? At this point there seems like a much greater chance of MBT starting somewhere next season than Prukop starting, so greater chance of MBT coming back to haunt us.

[Argo57]

The Smith throw was under thrown, would have been a TD in stride. Edwards TD also under thrown. Rarely do we ever see MBT put the touch on the ball to hit someone in stride. His TD’s would be even higher if he did. What’s encouraging is it’s not arm strength, which leads me to believe it is possible to improve.

Pretty windy day yesterday so surely that had something to do with not hitting Smith in stride perhaps?

[ArgoZ]

I'd love to see a stat (maybe DTonSC tracks this) of deep balls thrown perfectly (i.e. receiver hit in stride, no challenge associated with making the catch). I would be willing to bet that every QB in football (maybe not Aaron Rogers) makes receivers work for the catch a fair bit of the time. It ain't easy to throw a perfect deep ball. We were spoiled by Ricky Ray, but even some of his passes were under- and over-thrown at times.

I’m not asking for perfection. I will admit that I am biased and more demanding towards the Argos, as I usually watch the game live and again on PVR. It seems to me that MBT’s lack of accuracy shows up more often due to open receivers often having to let up. Worse quarterbacks might not even make the read, so being over critical is fair.


Serious question for those who continue to describe MBT as a good backup but not a starter, who are the nine QBs in the league right now who are clearly better than him? If there aren't at least nine, then he's a starting-calibre QB. IMO the number is quite a bit below nine.

Good question. Clearly, I can only say 3. One of them (Masoli) is a free agent and why I think they should pursue him. However, there is a bunch of guys including Fajardo, Evans, Adams, Collaros, Harris, Arbuckle who are equal or possibly better than MBT. Next season will tell for some, so your point is valid.

I can definitely see a scenario where Collaros and MBT are on the Argos next year along with O’Shea. Jim Popp had it all prepared though, if that’s the case.

[ArgoZ]

Pretty windy day yesterday so surely that had something to do with not hitting Smith in stride perhaps?

Good observation. It sure didn’t help. His overthrows all came from the other end.

[paulwoods13]

Good question. Clearly, I can only say 3. One of them (Masoli) is a free agent and why I think they should pursue him. However, there is a bunch of guys including Fajardo, Evans, Adams, Collaros, Harris, Arbuckle who are equal or possibly better than MBT. Next season will tell for some, so your point is valid.

Obviously we agree on BLM and Reilly. Masoli has definitely shown more than MBT to date, so if healthy I'd agree on him as well altho I'd be wary of giving a big FA deal to a guy recovering from an ACL. (That said, upgrading the Argos while simultaneously downgrading the Ticats is never a bad thing.)

I am sold on Adams, even though his sample size is not huge, because he has faced a fair bit of adversity (in his career, not this year per se) and he seems to have outstanding leadership skills. Fajardo and Evans both look like the real deal, but their sample sizes are a bit smaller than MBT's and I'm not yet prepared to say they are "clearly" as good or better. Let's see how they perform if and when they run into adversity, for one thing. I disagree re Collaros -- he hasn't been certifiably outstanding since 2015. (That said, I'd be happy as hell if he and MBT competed for the No. 1 job with the Argos next season, may the best man win.) I'm definitely not anointing Arbuckle yet. Very small sample size, outstanding talent around him -- the "next big thing" talk reminds me of how everyone felt about Franklin when he was the Eskimos' backup. And as I said before, I might take MBT over Harris at this point. I'm just not really a fan of Harris -- too much boom-or-bust for my taste, and he does not strike me as a team-first leader. That may be unfair to him but it's how I see him.

By my count there are six teams with no worries about their starting QB next season: B.C., Calgary, Edmonton, Sask, Ham and Mtl (assuming Adams is signed for 2020). That leaves Toronto, Winnipeg and Ottawa with no certainty about who will start for them. Three teams competing for Nichols, Streveler, Masoli, Arbuckle and MBT (plus a second tier of backups/potential future starters like Prukop, Franklin and maybe Shiltz and Pipkin -- I don't know their contract situations). If I was one of those three "need" teams, I'd be most comfortable chasing, in order, Masoli (assuming he's fully recovered), MBT, Arbuckle, Nichols and Streveler. Arbuckle will get offers because of his age and how he looked in his seven or eight starts (and the belief that Calgary is a QB factory) but there is risk in tying your fortunes to a guy who has not played even one full season. I'd personally want no part of Nichols, and Streveler only if I had no other good backup options.

[Nob]

Paul does raise a good point - we can’t look at the 2020 Argo QB situation in a vacuum. Winnipeg and Ottawa will also be looking for QB’s, and it is going to be a different QB market than it was in 2019. The list of free agent QB’s is will not have any all stars on it, and the demand will be greater than the supply.

Should make for a very interesting off season....but we said that last year too.

[Al&Kat]

Back to the game itself. Thanks Argos for a happy memory to carry me thru the playoffs and
Off-Season.
Nice touch with the junior team players holding out the flags for the anthem.

Most impressed by Ouellette, Kwemo and Prukop, in that order.

[Golden Fleece]

This post made me unbelievably happy. Thank you.

Well Mike, for all you've done for the Argos and given back to us as fans here at the forum, I'm glad you got something back from that post.

[argolio]

I cannot understand all the hate for MBT. With such a poor team and horrid O line to protect him, he has put up good numbers. Forget about the losses, since at least four of those are directly blamed on the kickers. Several directly blamed on a defence that gave up last minute scores. MBT doesn't call the plays. I know he has some problem with the deep ball, so I keep asking why is he making those plays? He started the game great with 10 to 20 yard throws and then they went with about 5 straight throws way down field, for no reason. If the OC had stuck with what works, then MBT would have looked even better.I think the reason was by design-- to get himself 4,000 yards quickly, end his day, and give Prukop and O'Connor as much playing time as possible.

S.J. Green did not play much if at all after he got his 1,000 yards.

Looked like they were targeting Edwards a lot in the 2nd half to get him close to a thousand. He's 48 yards short.

[Shatto]

It is an Intriguing question if there are 9 QB's who one would rate higher than MBT. All players including QB's have their strengths and deficiencies and how one sees those, affects how one evaluates the QB's. We have to recognize it is a highly subjective exercise. So, from a purely personal viewpoint I'd rate the following QB's ahead of MBT as a starter----Masoli, Mitchell, Reilly, Fajardo, Harris, Evans, Nichols, Arbuckle and Adams.

As stated, this is an interesting if somewhat fruitless exercise and one could present cogent arguments to choose MBT over some of the above. However the question I'd pose would be----if you were given a choice of any of the above or MBT to be your starting QB, who would you choose? My choice would be any of those over MBT. Others will disagree and might well be correct but nevertheless that is my admittedly subjective viewpoint.

If we have, as expected by many, a new coach next year, it will very interesting to see who he will want to be next year's starter. Whoever he chooses, I would respect his decision way ahead of any of ours --well certainly mine!

[paulwoods13]

If we have, as expected by many, a new coach next year, it will very interesting to see who he will want to be next year's starter. Whoever he chooses, I would respect his decision way ahead of any of ours --well certainly mine!

Ditto.

On a related note, I hope and expect most of the current staff (including the HC) will be relieved of their duties as soon as the season ends. The fact that the team has not issued ST renewals tells me they are waiting to unfurl a campaign built around the new GM and the new coach (which may or may not be the same individual).

With respect to the QB, one of the challenges the org faces is not knowing how free agency will play out. If they decide to move on from MBT, they won't know who the new starting QB will be until mid-Feb, unless they can make a trade for someone under contract or a pending free agent (like Masoli) that they can sign in advance of free agency. The latter seems unlikely, and it's pretty risky to hope/assume you can get who you want in free agency, as we learned the hard way this year. All of that would seem to point to re-signing MBT now -- which does not preclude also going after a FA like Masoli or Collaros or Arbuckle (assuming those guys get to free agency). It's worth remembering that all of the pending free agents can sign with their existing teams before February; I would not be surprised to see Hamilton, Winnipeg and Calgary make pitches to re-up their guys, especially if anything happens between now and then to make it necessary (e.g. Wpg winning the Grey Cup with Collaros, Evans or Mitchell suffering a serious injury, etc.). Given that, if I were in Pinball's shoes, I'd be working to sign MBT well before February, so that there is at least one experienced (and in my view, at least, starting-calibre) QB under contract heading into next season.

[Rich]

It's worth remembering that all of the pending free agents can sign with their existing teams before February; I would not be surprised to see Hamilton, Winnipeg and Calgary make pitches to re-up their guys, especially if anything happens between now and then to make it necessary (e.g. Wpg winning the Grey Cup with Collaros

Even if they win the Cup, there's no way in hell Collaros signs in Winnipeg IF the Argos also offer him a contract. He will even accept a little bit less in salary for the opportunity to play where he's put down serious roots. Who wouldn't?

[paulwoods13]

A Wpg fan told me today that if Bombers win the Grey Cup with Collaros, he could be elected mayor. Would he rather be the Grey Cup hero (after 29 years of failure) in a football-mad city that is free of traffic woes and feels like a friendly small town, or the QB for a team that is trying really hard but has a long way to go to become a part of the sporting consciousness of a gigantic metropolis? Obviously this is all hypothetical until and unless the Bombers win the Grey Cup (which is a major long shot at best) but I would not count on Zach returning if he is able to play out the dream scenario in the Peg.

[dmont]

Didnt I read somewhere that he's newly married to a girl from Markham and just bought a house in the GTA? That's a powerful draw to sign back with Toronto.

[1971GreyCup]

As much as I like Zach, I think the Argos have to move on. The team can’t put all their chips on a QB that has spent so long on the injury list. We’ve been through that in spades these last few years with dismal results.

Like MBT, the most we should expect from Zach is a solid backup. If history is a guide, I’d suspect “Pinball” will look for a Damon Allen type QB. Leadership and a winning tradition. Could he pry Mike Reilly from B.C.? They need to reload and maybe the overpaid for Mike. We know their owner always is looking to save money.

[Antwon]

I’m trying to stay out of the QB debate for next year until the end of the season as a lot can still change.
As much as I’ve come to respect MBT, there’s also frustration. As seen in a number of over throws in the last game.
But as someone pointed out, it may be worthwhile to try and sign him at the end of the season. Offer good backup money with incentives for starts etc.
Beyond that who knows what QB’s will make it to FA. It’s safe to say Ottawa will be going hard for one or more. And coaching? Is there going to be a changes?
Importantly, they should continue to bring MOC along as the potential future starter.

[paulwoods13]

Offer good backup money with incentives for starts etc.
Beyond that who knows what QB’s will make it to FA. It’s safe to say Ottawa will be going hard for one or more.

As I've noted before, with three teams in need of a starting QB next year, there will be demand for guys who have proven they can play (even those who have some flaws). Accordingly, I don't see why MBT would even consider backup money at this point. There's an excellent chance either Ott or Wpg, or both, might offer him starter's money if he gets to free agency.

The worst possible scenario, in my view, would be to get to free agency with only O'Connor under contract. We simply cannot risk a repeat of what happened this year -- pinning our hopes on signing a big-name free-agent QB only to see him (or all of them) sign elsewhere. That's one reason I want the Argos to offer MBT a good contract right now, a contract that will allow him to make very good money if he ends up starting, and good money if he ends up backing up. Something like a scenario I sketched out earlier where between the No. 1 and No. 2 QBs, we'd spend in the range of $540,000 total. Say $270k to MBT, $180k to a second proven QB (like Zach Collaros), with an additional $5k per game to whomever plays 50+% of offensive snaps in any given game.

[paulwoods13]

Didnt I read somewhere that he's newly married to a girl from Markham and just bought a house in the GTA? That's a powerful draw to sign back with Toronto.

Yes, but it's no guarantee he'd sign here. Assuming he has options, he presumably will consider them and do whatever he decides is best. The main factors might be some combination of money (base and bonuses), quality of life, team quality/potential playoff money, relationships he has with players and coaches, etc. Assuming he is highly likely to sign with Toronto because of where his wife is from and where he owns as house strikes me as risky.

[Argofan_1000]

As much as I like Zach, I think the Argos have to move on. The team can’t put all their chips on a QB that has spent so long on the injury list. We’ve been through that in spades these last few years with dismal results.

Like MBT, the most we should expect from Zach is a solid backup. If history is a guide, I’d suspect “Pinball” will look for a Damon Allen type QB. Leadership and a winning tradition. Could he pry Mike Reilly from B.C.? They need to reload and maybe the overpaid for Mike. We know their owner always is looking to save money.

have to agree - we need to move on from Zach, but wouldn't it be great if he didn't have the concussion issue. One of the good things in the CFL this year is emergence of young QB's. Some will be free agents next year. Let Franklin find something else, keep the other 3 and go after one of the FA to solve the QB problem. Problem with the young crew we have is they will be looking for an opportunity and will move on. Argo's QB farm system for the league.