Justin Dunk reporting Ryan Dinwiddie is the new Argos head coach

[AngeloV]

I am surprised. Really thought Oshe was coming back.

https://3downnation.com/2019/12/12/argos-to-hire-ryan-dinwiddie-to-be-head-coach/

[AngeloV]

TSN now reporting it too.

https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-argonauts-fire-corey-chamblin-hire-ryan-dinwiddie-1.1412202

[Mightygoose]

Came out of nowhere. I like how the rumours stay out of the media until it's decsion time.

This part I enjoy on how MLSE handles the football ops, Similar to the other teams they own IMO.

[Neely2005]

Looks like it's confirmed:

Argonauts fire Chamblin, hire Dinwiddie https://www.tsn.ca/1.1412202

[AngeloV]

Looks like it's confirmed:

Argonauts fire Chamblin, hire Dinwiddie https://www.tsn.ca/1.1412202

Already posted.

[argotom]

This was obviously a distant plan B hiring.
No idea what the book is on Dinwiddie other then being a QB coach for a few years with the Stamps?

[gilthethrill]

This was obviously a distant plan B hiring.
No idea what the book is on Dinwiddie other then being a QB coach for a few years with the Stamps?

I think he was Co Offensive coordinator in Montreal when Crompton was qb there as well.

[Joe Barnes]

I question the leap from QB Coach straight to Head Coach but, he's a young, fresh face. Good looking guy, which doesn't hurt for marketing...perhaps with the right assistants surrounding him (similar to what Pinball had as HC), he will be okay.Hey, it can't be worse, right? Welcome to T.O. Coach Dinwiddie!

[ArgoZ]

^ It was worse! Anything is better than the debacle we saw last season. I too was hoping for O’Shea, but I will be supportive of Dinwiddie. It will be interesting to see who the assistants will be and what QB they will now target. Word is, he and Arbuckle are tight.

[paulwoods13]

So pretty well everyone on here was wrong, either in declaring O'Shea was coming or Chamblin was staying.

Dinwiddie is an up-and-coming coach who has been groomed in the best coaching organization in Canada. People were scratching their heads when O'Billovich and Milanovich were hired, and those hires worked out pretty well. (Both coaches also got the Argos to the Grey Cup in their first year -- that's a steep goal for Diwniddie, but not out of the question in a league where turnarounds can happen very quickly.)

I'm betting RD hires Claybrooks as DC, which IMO would be great news. I've heard Claybrooks was the only other serious candidate for HC here last year, so he obviously must have impressed Manning and Popp.

This also has to put us as the front-runners to get Arbuckle, unless Calgary decides to trade BLM and go with the kid instead. I'm not hugely high on Arbuckle but if he ends up as our QB, I'm gonna put my faith in Dinwiddie, Pinball and Murphy knowing more than me. (Not that that's a stretch.)

[paulwoods13]

Came out of nowhere. I like how the rumours stay out of the media until it's decsion time.

This part I enjoy on how MLSE handles the football ops, Similar to the other teams they own IMO.

I agree 100%. Much as journalists relish getting scoops, there is no need for the organization to be leaky. It's almost unthinkable -- and highly commendable -- that Pinball started officially considering Chamblin's future a month ago, and no word of his decision leaked out until today.

[argolio]

In Pinball I trust!

And I guess this means O'Shea is staying in Winnipeg.

[Argo57]

So pretty well everyone on here was wrong, either in declaring O'Shea was coming or Chamblin was staying.

Dinwiddie is an up-and-coming coach who has been groomed in the best coaching organization in Canada. People were scratching their heads when O'Billovich and Milanovich were hired, and those hires worked out pretty well. (Both coaches also got the Argos to the Grey Cup in their first year -- that's a steep goal for Diwniddie, but not out of the question in a league where turnarounds can happen very quickly.)

I'm betting RD hires Claybrooks as DC, which IMO would be great news. I've heard Claybrooks was the only other serious candidate for HC here last year, so he obviously must have impressed Manning and Popp.

This also has to put us as the front-runners to get Arbuckle, unless Calgary decides to trade BLM and go with the kid instead. I'm not hugely high on Arbuckle but if he ends up as our QB, I'm gonna put my faith in Dinwiddie, Pinball and Murphy knowing more than me. (Not that that's a stretch.)

Zero complaints here, the Argos have chosen a new path with a young coach who has often been mentioned as solid HC material.
If they can add a DC like Claybrooks which makes sense considering their connection on Calgary’s staff then we’re in business!

[Argonut1996]

Since he comes out of the Stampeders organization, most likely the best team over the last decade or more, I believe he will have a solid background and should be able to hit the ground running. Next we need a good QB, and I have no problem with a young high potential player like Arbuckle.

[doubleblue]

Dinwiddie wasn't that great of a QB in the League, but sometimes those guys make the best Coaches. He had to learn a thing or two in Calgary. They know how to do things right.
I can see Arbuckle and Collaros both being offered a base salary with incentives for time played. But that might be difficult if Ottawa decides to go all in for one of them.
Claybrooks would be Dinwiddie's obvious choice for DC as they worked together in Calgary for several years.

[Stevoman]

I can understand why they'd be interested in hiring someone from Calgary's staff as they have publicly mentioned that they want to emulate them. That being said, I have no idea what Dinwiddie will bring to the Argonauts.

It's interesting considering their last two seasons: they tried to defend a championship with an older, veteran coach, then a younger coach with previous success in the league, and now a young head coach with no experience but maybe with fresh ideas. I think if he can win more than 4 games his job will be safe for another year!

I really hope to carousel slows to a stop with this move and that it builds towards consistency that they so desperately need.

[gilthethrill]

So pretty well everyone on here was wrong, either in declaring O'Shea was coming or Chamblin was staying.

Dinwiddie is an up-and-coming coach who has been groomed in the best coaching organization in Canada. People were scratching their heads when O'Billovich and Milanovich were hired, and those hires worked out pretty well. (Both coaches also got the Argos to the Grey Cup in their first year -- that's a steep goal for Diwniddie, but not out of the question in a league where turnarounds can happen very quickly.)

I'm betting RD hires Claybrooks as DC, which IMO would be great news. I've heard Claybrooks was the only other serious candidate for HC here last year, so he obviously must have impressed Manning and Popp.

This also has to put us as the front-runners to get Arbuckle, unless Calgary decides to trade BLM and go with the kid instead. I'm not hugely high on Arbuckle but if he ends up as our QB, I'm gonna put my faith in Dinwiddie, Pinball and Murphy knowing more than me. (Not that that's a stretch.)

Good points Paul. Another obvious example is when Mike Hohensee was hired as HC of the AFL expansion Chicago Rush in 2001 I believe. He had a solid record there.

[1971GreyCup]

The “Plan C “ no one saw coming. Thoughtful selection. Of course his success will rely on the players and coaches he is surrounded by. Claybrook as DC would go a long way towards that goal. It looks like a very good year for availability of quality QBs. A light at the end of the tunnel. My Dad would caution me that’s great, ‘as long as it isn’t an oncoming train’.

[Antwon]

When I heard they interviewed Dinwiddie, I thought it was more for the OC job with the possibility of HC when Chamblin fails again.
But having him start the season as HC allows him to pick his staff and get a fresh start in camp.
Although a gamble to go with a rookie HC, he has been viewed as future HC by many.
I trust Pinball and Murphy will load up with better talent then last year, but it will take a couple of years to build continuity.
Lastly, the organization will need to have some patience! Perfect example is O'Shea. He grew into the position getting better each year. Which I believe is better in the long run vs a rookie HC winning the Grey Cup in the first year. Chamblin and Milanovich did that and then went down hill.

[Neely2005]

Any word on an introductory Press Conference?

[gilthethrill]

Any word on an introductory Press Conference?

11 am today at BMO Field.

[gilthethrill]

The “Plan C “ no one saw coming. Thoughtful selection. Of course his success will rely on the players and coaches he is surrounded by. Claybrook as DC would go a long way towards that goal. It looks like a very good year for availability of quality QBs. A light at the end of the tunnel. My Dad would caution me that’s great, ‘as long as it isn’t an oncoming train’.

Could also see long time Calgary receivers coach Pete Costanza come to Toronto, would not be surprised if Crompton is retained as QB coach.

[paulwoods13]

Here are the main "news" items from the newser, in no particular order.

Manning did not foresee firing Chamblin but after Pinball's review, Pinball told him a new culture was needed and that meant a new HC. Decided on this a couple of wks ago. They did talk to a number of people.

Culture change -- Past regime(s) were obsessed with looking backwards at what happened in the past. Pinball is determined to look forward. And being much more present in the community. The new HC will live in Toronto year-round, and wants most of his assts to do so as well.

Pinball compared hiring RD to the Argos hiring Obie and Milanovich, and the Stamps to hiring Dickenson -- young guys who were "the next guy."

Pinball likes the fact that RD is all football all the time. He only watches football (no other sports) and he is always first in the building and last to leave. Manning liked the fact that RD came in with a specific plan for the Argos. RD said Murphy "orchestrated" his hire.

RD: "I'm a players' coach. Players will love me but I'm going to be very demanding."

Assistants have not been settled on yet but RD has had a lot of conversations with potential assts and has had to tell a lot of friends "No." He plans to run an "explosive" offence. RD plans to hire an OC but be heavily involved and call offensive plays, like Dickenson does in Calgary. He wants a defensive coordinator who will play aggressively, and a ST coordinator who will emphasize physical play. New guys from both sides of the border have to be willing to make their mark initially on specials.

He mentioned his work with Jonathan Crompton as Mtl's offensive coordinator in 2014 so I would bet Crompton will be staying on staff.

He is looking for experienced coordinators and willing to hire inexperienced position coaches from US and Cdn college football. He wants a good mix of experience and youth on his staff.

I'm not so sure about Claybrooks coming on board. In response to a question about what went wrong with Claybrooks in BC this year, he said Claybrooks "felt like he knew it all" and he doesn't plan to make the same mistake.

RD wants to look inside and outside the org for QBs, and emphasized the need for good pass protection. He kind of implied he wants to get Arbuckle but that was just one possible interpretation of a comment he made quickly.

[timlb01]

Here are the main "news" items from the newser, in no particular order.

Manning did not foresee firing Chamblin but after Pinball's review, Pinball told him a new culture was needed and that meant a new HC. Decided on this a couple of wks ago. They did talk to a number of people.

Culture change -- Past regime(s) were obsessed with looking backwards at what happened in the past. Pinball is determined to look forward. And being much more present in the community. The new HC will live in Toronto year-round, and wants most of his assts to do so as well.

Pinball compared hiring RD to the Argos hiring Obie and Milanovich, and the Stamps to hiring Dickenson -- young guys who were "the next guy."

Pinball likes the fact that RD is all football all the time. He only watches football (no other sports) and he is always first in the building and last to leave. Manning liked the fact that RD came in with a specific plan for the Argos. RD said Murphy "orchestrated" his hire.

RD: "I'm a players' coach. Players will love me but I'm going to be very demanding."

Assistants have not been settled on yet but RD has had a lot of conversations with potential assts and has had to tell a lot of friends "No." He plans to run an "explosive" offence. RD plans to hire an OC but be heavily involved and call offensive plays, like Dickenson does in Calgary. He wants a defensive coordinator who will play aggressively, and a ST coordinator who will emphasize physical play. New guys from both sides of the border have to be willing to make their mark initially on specials.

He mentioned his work with Jonathan Crompton as Mtl's offensive coordinator in 2014 so I would bet Crompton will be staying on staff.

He is looking for experienced coordinators and willing to hire inexperienced position coaches from US and Cdn college football. He wants a good mix of experience and youth on his staff.

I'm not so sure about Claybrooks coming on board. In response to a question about what went wrong with Claybrooks in BC this year, he said Claybrooks "felt like he knew it all" and he doesn't plan to make the same mistake.

RD wants to look inside and outside the org for QBs, and emphasized the need for good pass protection. He kind of implied he wants to get Arbuckle but that was just one possible interpretation of a comment he made quickly.

Great summary Paul. I would add that he looked a little nervous and he also said his time in Montreal was with a dysfunctional organization. I wish he didn’t say that or the Claybrooks comment. Doesn’t do him any good doing so. I think this was due to him being nervous and unfamiliar with his new position.

[Neely2005]

11 am today at BMO Field.

Thanks, somehow I missed that. Fortunately my Argos App sent me a notification.

[gilthethrill]

Thanks, somehow I missed that. Fortunately my Argos App sent me a notification.

No problem buddy...Argos App?

[stuntdog]

When he was team president in 2002, Pinball hired Gary Etcheverry as HC. After twelve games in the 2002 season Etcheverry was gone and Pinball became HC.

What are the odds that we’re back to the future in 2020 and Pinball takes over as HC by the end of the season?

[Will]

I do understand the hesitation at this hiring because Dinwiddie is making a leap from QB Coach --> Head Coach. I assume that Dickenson was de facto OC, but I assume that Dinwiddie must have had some input there.

[AngeloV]

When he was team president in 2002, Pinball hired Gary Etcheverry as HC. After twelve games in the 2002 season Etcheverry was gone and Pinball became HC.

What are the odds that we’re back to the future in 2020 and Pinball takes over as HC by the end of the season?

I don't think it's the same situation. Etcheverry was a coach while Pinball played, and I think the main reason he was hired was because Pinball thought JI Albrecht and CO did him wrong. That was a mistake based on emotion. Pinball had no previous ties to Dinwiddie, which tells me that a lot more thought and due diligence went into this decision.

[paulwoods13]

When he was team president in 2002, Pinball hired Gary Etcheverry as HC. After twelve games in the 2002 season Etcheverry was gone and Pinball became HC.

What are the odds that we’re back to the future in 2020 and Pinball takes over as HC by the end of the season?

Obie hired Mike Faragalli to replace himself, and that hiring went south. Pinball brought in (or at least approved the hiring of) Stubler as his replacement, and that failed as well. Not all new coaches work out, obviously. But Dinwiddie looks like someone who will grow into the job, and I fully expect he will get more than one season (let alone 12 games) to prove his value.

[paulwoods13]

I do understand the hesitation at this hiring because Dinwiddie is making a leap from QB Coach --> Head Coach. I assume that Dickenson was de facto OC, but I assume that Dinwiddie must have had some input there.

RD said at the newser that while DD called the plays and was in fact the OC, he (RD) had tons of input and did a lot of the stuff OCs do including running some of the meetings.

[1971GreyCup]

I really like the RD year-round commitment to the community. That’s a big change to the culture the “Pinball” is changing. As everyone knows, “Pinball” is American by birth, Canadian by choice. That immediately differentiates the Argos from the other sports franchises in Toronto and more similar to the Western teams.

[OV Argo]

Great summary Paul. I would add that he looked a little nervous and he also said his time in Montreal was with a dysfunctional organization. I wish he didn’t say that or the Claybrooks comment. Doesn’t do him any good doing so. I think this was due to him being nervous and unfamiliar with his new position.


IF that comment about Nice Hat Claybrooks indicates RD is not really solid with him and not sold to hire him as DC, I'm very good with that; much more experienced Canadian ball defensive minds out there to consider. RD should consider hiring some real experienced, sharp football minds to his staff - to help him with his very limited football coaching resume - and not just go with same old recycled CFL fave types who were hired because they were ex-players and know somebody from the current standard CFL thinking clique.

[jerrym]

Here are the main "news" items from the newser, in no particular order.

Manning did not foresee firing Chamblin but after Pinball's review, Pinball told him a new culture was needed and that meant a new HC. Decided on this a couple of wks ago. They did talk to a number of people.

Culture change -- Past regime(s) were obsessed with looking backwards at what happened in the past. Pinball is determined to look forward. And being much more present in the community. The new HC will live in Toronto year-round, and wants most of his assts to do so as well.

Pinball compared hiring RD to the Argos hiring Obie and Milanovich, and the Stamps to hiring Dickenson -- young guys who were "the next guy."

Pinball likes the fact that RD is all football all the time. He only watches football (no other sports) and he is always first in the building and last to leave. Manning liked the fact that RD came in with a specific plan for the Argos. RD said Murphy "orchestrated" his hire.

RD: "I'm a players' coach. Players will love me but I'm going to be very demanding."

Assistants have not been settled on yet but RD has had a lot of conversations with potential assts and has had to tell a lot of friends "No." He plans to run an "explosive" offence. RD plans to hire an OC but be heavily involved and call offensive plays, like Dickenson does in Calgary. He wants a defensive coordinator who will play aggressively, and a ST coordinator who will emphasize physical play. New guys from both sides of the border have to be willing to make their mark initially on specials.

He mentioned his work with Jonathan Crompton as Mtl's offensive coordinator in 2014 so I would bet Crompton will be staying on staff.

He is looking for experienced coordinators and willing to hire inexperienced position coaches from US and Cdn college football. He wants a good mix of experience and youth on his staff.

I'm not so sure about Claybrooks coming on board. In response to a question about what went wrong with Claybrooks in BC this year, he said Claybrooks "felt like he knew it all" and he doesn't plan to make the same mistake.

RD wants to look inside and outside the org for QBs, and emphasized the need for good pass protection. He kind of implied he wants to get Arbuckle but that was just one possible interpretation of a comment he made quickly.

I love the idea of having a year-round coach. Hopefully RD has good public communication skills as the team needs all the help it can get in building the fan base, although having Pinball means thats not absolutely necessary.

Many quality HC's over time struggled in their first HC job both because they often start off with troubled teams and because they are still learning the job, but learned from their mistakes and went on to success later. Hopefully, RD will catch on quickly.

His role in developing Arbuckle relatively quickly into a starting QB is promising.

I would have liked to see Claybrooks as DC. His defensive systems in Calgary were extremely effective. I was somewhat impressed with his ability to get BC turned around from a 1-10 start to finish 4-3. He may have learned from his experience. However, if RD perceives him as a know-it-all, whether true or not, it's unlikely he'll be hired.

[argonaut11xx]

Dunno what to make of this hiring, Hope it works out.

Consistency is very important IMO, so 3 head coaches in 3 years is not great.

That said, Coach Dinwiddie has the prettiest baby blue eyes I've ever seen.

Paul Woods, your the expert, are Dinwiddie's eyes, Cambridge or Oxford blue?

[1971GreyCup]

“Pinball” covers comprehensively all the bases on why RD was hired on this 4 minute video. https://twitter.com/torontoargos/status/1205662438978457600?s=21

[paulwoods13]

Dunno what to make of this hiring, Hope it works out.

Consistency is very important IMO, so 3 head coaches in 3 years is not great.

That said, Coach Dinwiddie has the prettiest baby blue eyes I've ever seen.

Paul Woods, your the expert, are Dinwiddie's eyes, Cambridge or Oxford blue?

I don't know but you have led me to a great idea -- all Argos should have to wear contact lenses, one Cambridge and one Oxford.

[Jon Gonzo]

One has to wonder if this recent purge of autocratic old school coaches in the NHL had any weight in this 'move to youth' for Pinball.

The emphasis on 'teaching, not telling' says a lot.

Chamblin was known to rub players the wrong way. He's abrasive and cold to some players whom he feels aren't getting it.

Frankly I think 3-4 losses in 2019 fall at the coaches feet, so I am just hoping that RD's game management is better. Chamblin may have had a problem with delegation of duties.

If RD and Pinball can get us prepared and going in a positive direction, and then not lose games on game-day, then we could see a bump in production right there alone.

I like how important the QB and O-line are to RD. They ARE giant priorities. We all know that keeping a D off that big field in the CFL is ultra important. It instantly improves Defenses.

I think we'll see a #1 QB come in to compliment Dakota/or MBT (along with the Canadian kid), we'll see a big American LT come in, maybe upgrade at Guard and we'll see strong Coordinators on the D and O and also along the O-Line.

Mike Benevides and Noel Thorpe come to mind for DC. After seeing the Presser, I agree with Paul Woods, it doesn't sound like Claybrooks is the guy.

[doubleblue]

One has to wonder if this recent purge of autocratic old school coaches in the NHL had any weight in this 'move to youth' for Pinball.

The emphasis on 'teaching, not telling' says a lot.

Chamblin was known to rub players the wrong way. He's abrasive and cold to some players whom he feels aren't getting it.

Frankly I think 3-4 losses in 2019 fall at the coaches feet, so I am just hoping that RD's game management is better. Chamblin may have had a problem with delegation of duties.

If RD and Pinball can get us prepared and going in a positive direction, and then not lose games on game-day, then we could see a bump in production right there alone.

I like how important the QB and O-line are to RD. They ARE giant priorities. We all know that keeping a D off that big field in the CFL are ultra important. It instantly improves Defenses.

I think we'll see a #1 QB come in to compliment Dakota/or MBT (along with the Canadian kid), we'll see a big American LT come in, maybe upgrade at Guard and we'll see strong Coordinators on the D and O and also along the O-Line.

Mike Benevides and Noel Thorpe come to mind for DC. After seeing the Presser, I agree with Paul Woods, it doesn't sound like Claybrooks is the guy.

Yes there is no doubt that Benevides, Thorpe and Claybrooks are proven DC guys out there. With the three openings in Toronto, Edmonton and Ottawa they all could find a job in one of those places when the music stops.

[paulwoods13]

Frankly I think 3-4 losses in 2019 fall at the coaches feet, so I am just hoping that RD's game management is better.

Without going back and looking at all 14 losses, I think you're possibly being generous at just 3-4. In-game coaching decisions were mind-boggling all season. Maybe CC had too many responsibilities as DC and HC, but there's no excusing some of the insane decisions on third downs and challenges.

[ArgoZ]

Without going back and looking at all 14 losses, I think you're possibly being generous at just 3-4. In-game coaching decisions were mind-boggling all season. Maybe CC had too many responsibilities as DC and HC, but there's no excusing some of the insane decisions on third downs and challenges.

I think it’s a fair number. Better coaching would have made games closer, but there’s no guarantee they win those games. We lost close games that were directly because of coaching (3), quarterbacking (2) and kicking (2). Combined with our 4 wins and that’s an 11 win season right there.

[paulwoods13]

I think it’s a fair number. Better coaching would have made games closer, but there’s no guarantee they win those games. We lost close games that were directly because of coaching (3), quarterbacking (2) and kicking (2). Combined with our 4 wins and that’s an 11 win season right there.

Interesting. Which two losses do you attribute to quarterback play?

[Neely2005]

No problem buddy...Argos App?

Yeah it's available for Android and iOS. It's been out for about a year now I think.

[Neely2005]

Interesting. Which two losses do you attribute to quarterback play?

I'll go with the games where MBT scored 0 Points.

[argolio]

I think it’s a fair number. Better coaching would have made games closer, but there’s no guarantee they win those games. We lost close games that were directly because of coaching (3), quarterbacking (2) and kicking (2). Combined with our 4 wins and that’s an 11 win season right there.I find it hard to believe it was possible to squeeze 11 wins out of this team. We were either last or in the bottom half of the league in points scored and allowed, yards gained and allowed, time of possession, sacks, sacks allowed, turnovers, turnover ratio, knockdowns, punt and kickoff return average, punting and net punting average, FG percentage, special teams penalties, and the list goes on. We were also last in first quarter scoring, which meant we had to throw more to try and catch up. If MBT didn't have the year he had, 2019 would have been an all-time CFL disastrous season instead of just a bad Argo one.

I still put deficiency in line play as our biggest problem. O-line and d-line are the least sexiest positions, but you can't win without efficient, physical line play. For me, that's what drove Winnipeg's playoff run. If the Argos can fix that, you have the basis for a successful team.


I'll go with the games where MBT scored 0 Points.So one game.

[ArgoZ]

I think it’s a fair number. Better coaching would have made games closer, but there’s no guarantee they win those games. We lost close games that were directly because of coaching (3), quarterbacking (2) and kicking (2). Combined with our 4 wins and that’s an 11 win season right there.

There are a lots of examples of bad QB play. Mostly early season games, where the combination of Franklin and MBT where very poor, but they may have got blown out regardless.

I blame the QB for two of these three losses. Although the last one may be controversial, I stand by that great players make plays when it counts. Keep in mind, we are nitpicking here, looking for wins instead of losses.

26-16 Calgary loss, where the Argos marched into the red zone multiple times but came up short resulting in MBT’s 4 interceptions. The defence played good. Very winnable game.

26-0 shut out loss to Edmonton was a lot closer than the score shows. Terrible QB play by MBT and Prukop. Edmonton didn’t look impressive either, we were just that bad and inept.

Touchdown Atlantic. I know MBT numbers were good. With a chance to win on the final play, he has to hit the numbers or lead the receiver. Throws to the back shoulder and defensive back makes a play. I know we have debated that play before, but an accurate and/or great QB puts that on the money with the game on the line.

[ArgoZ]

I find it hard to believe it was possible to squeeze 11 wins out of this team.

It wasn’t possible, but with only a few changes, those close games (some where we lost in the last minute) could have been won.

[gilthethrill]

There are a lots of examples of bad QB play. Mostly early season games, where the combination of Franklin and MBT where very poor, but they may have got blown out regardless.

I blame the QB for these three losses. Although the last one may be controversial, I stand by that great players make plays when it counts.

26-16 Calgary loss, where the Argos marched into the red zone multiple times but came up short resulting in MBT’s 4 interceptions. The defence played good. Very winnable game.

26-0 shut out loss to Edmonton was a lot closer than the score shows. Terrible QB play by MBT and Prukop. Edmonton didn’t look impressive either, we were just that bad and inept.

Touchdown Atlantic. I know MBT numbers were good. With a chance to win on the final play, he has to hit the numbers or lead the receiver. Throws to the back shoulder and defensive back makes a play. I know we have debated that play before, but an accurate and/or great QB puts that on the money with the game on the line.

I have to argue about the TD Atlantic Game. MBT was outstanding on that final, long drive. His big error in that game was at the end of the 1st half when he should have just fell on a loose ball while in chip shot FG range instead of trying to pick the ball up to make a play.

[Argo57]

There are a lots of examples of bad QB play. Mostly early season games, where the combination of Franklin and MBT where very poor, but they may have got blown out regardless.

I blame the QB for two of these three losses. Although the last one may be controversial, I stand by that great players make plays when it counts. Keep in mind, we are nitpicking here, looking for wins instead of losses.

26-16 Calgary loss, where the Argos marched into the red zone multiple times but came up short resulting in MBT’s 4 interceptions. The defence played good. Very winnable game.

26-0 shut out loss to Edmonton was a lot closer than the score shows. Terrible QB play by MBT and Prukop. Edmonton didn’t look impressive either, we were just that bad and inept.

Touchdown Atlantic. I know MBT numbers were good. With a chance to win on the final play, he has to hit the numbers or lead the receiver. Throws to the back shoulder and defensive back makes a play. I know we have debated that play before, but an accurate and/or great QB puts that on the money with the game on the line.

MBT’s last throw in the Touchdown Atlantic game was highly catchable.

[paulwoods13]

I agree we had terrible quarterback play in Calgary and Edmonton altho I would argue the Edmonton game was lost for more reasons than quarterbacking. I of course disagree the TD Atlantic loss can be pinned on the QB; the fact we managed to get a shot at winning on the final play (despite being 100 yards from the end zone with a minute left, no timeouts, and a couple of dropped passes along the way) was certainly on the QB, tho.

[AngeloV]

MBT’s last throw in the Touchdown Atlantic game was highly catchable.

I’ve seen so many replays of that last play. Absolutely should have been caught. The thing that bothers me is people that say SJ was wide open and he threw to the wrong guy. BS. For starters, if your first read is open you take it. Secondly, SJ doesn’t get open until the ball was already released. The wide angle replay clearly shows this.

[Neely2005]

So one game.

What one isn't enough?

IIRC there was a second game where MBT scored 0 Points and then Franklin came in to finish the game and Franklin scored.

[argolio]

IIRC there was a second game where MBT scored 0 Points and then Franklin came in to finish the game and Franklin scored.Wrong.

MBT's only poor games were against Edmonton and Calgary, both playoff teams. He wasn't the one who put up zero points in that disaster at B.C.

[Rich]

If MBT didn't have the year he had, 2019 would have been an all-time CFL disastrous season instead of just a bad Argo one.


Yes and we should be thankful that we only experienced the deep disappointment of back-to-back bad seasons, and not the ignominious shame of an all-time disastrous one. Whew!

I think that if we had the kind of high-quality QBing that Zach Collaros gave Winnipeg -- for all 18 games -- I think we would have been 9-9 or better.

Collaros did so many things better than Argo QBs could this year. He is excellent at evading the rush, he knows when to take off and he knows when to throw the ball away. He throws a very good long ball, and a better and more accurate ball in general. And he has a savvy and a game sense that was completely absent behind centre for the Argonauts. Great QBing can lift a whole team. Hopefully we'll find that out next year.

[Rich]

So pretty well everyone on here was wrong, either in declaring O'Shea was coming

I must admit, Paul, that I was pretty certain Mikey was coming. I think if the Bombers hadn't won the Cup he still would have, or maybe even he would have been axed. Six years is a long time to stay in one place without winning.

But being Grey Cup Champ HC changes everything. Who wouldn't want to dine out on that for a year or two? He sure wouldn't be able to enjoy it if he took the Argo job -- starting all over again from the bottom in a high-pressure situation.

I still think though there's a good chance that Mike O'Shea will be HC of the Argonauts some day in the future.

[Rich]

I love the idea that Dinwiddie is a QB whisperer type coach who knows how to get the best out a a QB. He's come to the right team, right? It's not just the prospect of Arbuckle being groomed for #1. This hire is the best possible news for Michael O'Connor and maybe Prukop too. The QB coaching couldn't have been any worse than it was last year, but they really have a much better chance to develop now.

I think a HC should be always talking to his QB during the course of a game. Most of the great coach/QB combos in the sport do this. Last year I watched time and time again beleaguered Argo QBs slinking back to the sideline after another bad series, not even going near Chamblin who was busy organizing his defence, and rarely even encountering Chapdelaine, who was either in the pressbox or else pacing like a madman on the sidelines, barking out a word or two to the QB as he passed by.

It's hard to believe just how bad this coaching staff was.

[paulwoods13]

I think a HC should be always talking to his QB during the course of a game. Most of the great coach/QB combos in the sport do this. Last year I watched time and time again beleaguered Argo QBs slinking back to the sideline after another bad series, not even going near Chamblin who was busy organizing his defence, and rarely even encountering Chapdelaine, who was either in the pressbox or else pacing like a madman on the sidelines, barking out a word or two to the QB as he passed by.


This is a good point. MBT's play (and the brief flashes we saw of Prukop and O'Connor in the last two games) seemed to have been helped immensely by having Jonathan Crompton on the sideline to talk to them and review the tablet replays with them. I think there is an excellent chance Crompton stays on staff, as QB coach or OC, and rehiring him might help persuade MBT and/or Prukop to re-sign (if the team wants one or both of them back).

Among the other assistant coaches, even though our o-line was weak most of the season, I wouldn't mind if Dan Dorazio was brought back. I've been reading the book that Angus Reid wrote about him and he comes off a the kind of coach who has a huge impact on his players. For all we know, maybe Dorazio got more out of the o-line than anyone else would have.

[Neely2005]

Wrong.

MBT's only poor games were against Edmonton and Calgary, both playoff teams. He wasn't the one who put up zero points in that disaster at B.C.

It's the CFL. Unless terrible weather is a factor you should Never get shutout!

And for the record he also had 0 Points against Saskatchewan (in limited playing time on Canada Day) and Calgary.

So like I said, twice.

[argolio]

Yes and we should be thankful that we only experienced the deep disappointment of back-to-back bad seasons, and not the ignominious shame of an all-time disastrous one. Whew!

I think that if we had the kind of high-quality QBing that Zach Collaros gave Winnipeg -- for all 18 games -- I think we would have been 9-9 or better.

Collaros did so many things better than Argo QBs could this year. He is excellent at evading the rush, he knows when to take off and he knows when to throw the ball away. He throws a very good long ball, and a better and more accurate ball in general. And he has a savvy and a game sense that was completely absent behind centre for the Argonauts. Great QBing can lift a whole team. Hopefully we'll find that out next year.9-9? I doubt it with our line play and other issues.

Collaros didn't play lights out in his one regular season start and the playoffs. He just played steady and didn't turn the ball over. Winnipeg had the line play all season that we didn't. I like Collaros, but can he still be the dynamic QB he was five years ago? Not sure.


It's the CFL. Unless terrible weather is a factor you should Never get shutout!

And for the record he also had 0 Points against Saskatchewan (in limited playing time on Canada Day) and Calgary.

So like I said, twice.LOL, he threw 6 passes as an injury replacement in one drive during mop-up time. Only someone with an agenda would fault a backup QB in that situation for getting "shutout!".

And the shutout was Edmonton, not Calgary.

[Jon Gonzo]

LOL, he threw 6 passes as an injury replacement in one drive during mop-up time. Only someone with an agenda would fault a backup QB in that situation for getting "shutout!".

And the shutout was Edmonton, not Calgary.

Agenda? I think our agenda's are all quite similar & that is wins and successes. Also, as Pinball says, we all MUST learn from the losing. 2019 can't be wasted. That is why Dinwiddie is here, and it is also why MBT won't be counted on as a starter in the CFL in 2020. The results are in, that would be foolhardy and the definition of insanity.

MBT deserves credit for his season. He displayed intestinal fortitude and moxy. He'd possibly make the best 2nd stringer in the league for maybe another season or so, but we had tons of time to evaluate and you cannot safely go into a season expecting him to be your starter.

[Neely2005]

LOL, he threw 6 passes as an injury replacement in one drive during mop-up time. Only someone with an agenda would fault a backup QB in that situation for getting "shutout!".

And the shutout was Edmonton, not Calgary.

There were 3 Games where MBT scored 0 Points. I'm only counting 2 of them, Calgary and Edmonton. I'm not counting the Saskatchewan game.

Not sure what's unclear.

[paulwoods13]

MBT deserves credit for his season. He displayed intestinal fortitude and moxy. He'd possibly make the best 2nd stringer in the league for maybe another season or so, but we had tons of time to evaluate and you cannot safely go into a season expecting him to be your starter.

And yet there are people who feel we could go safely into 2020 with Arbuckle as our starter, despite the fact we've seen much less of him than we have seen of MBT. (And what we saw was IMO a lot less impressive than what we saw from MBT.)

I've reconciled to the likelihood that MBT won't be back in double blue next season. And I expect he will make Argo fans regret the team letting him leave.

[AngeloV]

There were 3 Games where MBT scored 0 Points. I'm only counting 2 of them, Calgary and Edmonton. I'm not counting the Saskatchewan game.

Not sure what's unclear.

You need to check your facts. The team was down 20-6 when he was pulled from the Calgary game, but feel free to continue to make things up.

[Neely2005]

You need to check your facts. The team was down 20-6 when he was pulled from the Calgary game, but feel free to continue to make things up.

https://www.argonauts.ca/games/2614/calgary-stampeders-vs-toronto-argonauts/

BETHEL-THOMPSON, Mcleod
12/19 63.2% 86 0 TD 1 INT 18

[AngeloV]

https://www.argonauts.ca/games/2614/calgary-stampeders-vs-toronto-argonauts/

BETHEL-THOMPSON, Mcleod
12/19 63.2% 86 0 TD 1 INT 18

It was 20-3 when he was pulled, not 20-6. My bad, but still, you said ZERO points.

[Neely2005]

It was 20-3 when he was pulled, not 20-6. My bad, but still, you said ZERO points.

I said that MBT scored 0 Points. Which is accurate.

3 Games he scored 0 Points. Although as I mentioned he didn't play much in the Saskatchewan game.

[argolio]

I said that MBT scored 0 Points. Which is accurate.

3 Games he scored 0 Points. Although as I mentioned he didn't play much in the Saskatchewan game.If you want to get technical, statistically speaking, MBT only scored six points in 2019 based on one rushing TD. For TD passes, the receiver catching the pass gets the actual statistical credit for the six points, not the QB. Using your metric of scoring points, QBs score 0 points more often than not.

But in general football talk, the QB is credited with leading a team to any offensive points, TD or FG, even if he doesn't throw a pass on a drive. So MBT is credited with leading the team to three points vs Calgary, just like Franklin is credited with leading the team to six points (two FGs) vs Hamilton in the season opener.

[Neely2005]

If you want to get technical, statistically speaking, MBT only scored six points in 2019 based on one rushing TD. For TD passes, the receiver catching the pass gets the actual statistical credit for the six points, not the QB. Using your metric of scoring points, QBs score 0 points more often than not.

But in general football talk, the QB is credited with leading a team to any offensive points, TD or FG, even if he doesn't throw a pass on a drive. So MBT is credited with leading the team to three points vs Calgary, just like Franklin is credited with leading the team to six points (two FGs) vs Hamilton in the season opener.

I'm counting Touchdowns Thrown or Rushed. 3 times MBT scored 0. Let that sink in. In 3 CFL Games where weather was Not a factor he threw or rushed for 0 TDs.

The fact that you have to argue over a single Field Goal really says it all.

[AngeloV]

I'm counting Touchdowns Thrown or Rushed. 3 times MBT scored 0. Let that sink in. In 3 CFL Games where weather was Not a factor he threw or rushed for 0 TDs.

The fact that you have to argue over a single Field Goal really says it all.

You mean 2 games. The Canada Day game in Saskatchewan where he entered in the 4th can hardly be used as an example for you argument.

[Neely2005]

You mean 2 games. The Canada Day game in Saskatchewan where he entered in the 4th can hardly be used as an example for you argument.


There were 3 Games where MBT scored 0 Points. I'm only counting 2 of them, Calgary and Edmonton. I'm not counting the Saskatchewan game.

Not sure what's unclear.


I said that MBT scored 0 Points. Which is accurate.

3 Games he scored 0 Points. Although as I mentioned he didn't play much in the Saskatchewan game.

Yes, I've already said that twice. You know the same number of games where MBT was shutout.

[gilthethrill]

Crap, Benevedes signed on as DC with Ottawa.... Damn It! Sorry my post didn't include MBT guys 😁

[doubleblue]

Thorpe and Dinwiddie would have worked together in Montreal I believe.

[OV Argo]

Thorpe and Dinwiddie would have worked together in Montreal I believe.


No thanks to Thorpe joining the Argos; his D in Ottawa last season was mediocre to sometimes useless. Likes to jerk players around and constantly gives new (import) players playing time to disrupt a chance at a cohesive defence.

Him and Claybrooks should have no trouble being GOB recycled in no time; just not with the Argos please.

[AngeloV]

Him and Claybrooks should have no trouble being GOB recycled in no time; just not with the Argos please.

Blah Blah Blah Blah. Do you ever say anything else?

[OV Argo]

Blah Blah Blah Blah. Do you ever say anything else?

Sorry to offend you, sir.

I wish the Argos coulda re-hired that genius Scotty M to their staff; but not that Tom Clements guy - very over-rated CFL QB ;o)

[Jon Gonzo]

I didn't hear one person complaining about Noel Thorpe's D last season in Ottawa or any season he's been a DCO in the CFL. Ottawa's Defense was strong last year other than being on the field for too long, which is always a problem. Thorpe would be a fine addition. The Argos have tried to hire him before, if I recall. Personally, I am hoping for lots of experience around this young head coach because at times he'll be needing it. Call them GOB's if you want; I'll call them CFL experienced.

[AngeloV]

Sorry to offend you, sir.

I wish the Argos coulda re-hired that genius Scotty M to their staff; but not that Tom Clements guy - very over-rated CFL QB ;o)

Difference being, I don't say that in every one of my posts.

[AngeloV]

I didn't hear one person complaining about Noel Thorpe's D last season in Ottawa or any season he's been a DCO in the CFL. Ottawa's Defense was strong last year other than being on the field for too long, which is always a problem. Thorpe would be a fine addition. The Argos have tried to hire him before, if I recall. Personally, I am hoping for lots of experience around this young head coach because at times he'll be needing it. Call them GOB's if you want; I'll call them CFL experienced.

Couldn't agree more.

[KCargosfan]

I didn't hear one person complaining about Noel Thorpe's D last season in Ottawa or any season he's been a DCO in the CFL. Ottawa's Defense was strong last year other than being on the field for too long, which is always a problem. Thorpe would be a fine addition. The Argos have tried to hire him before, if I recall. Personally, I am hoping for lots of experience around this young head coach because at times he'll be needing it. Call them GOB's if you want; I'll call them CFL experienced.

Ottawa's issue was a horrific offense with horrific quarterback play.

Say what you want about Trevor Harris, but the RBs were stupid not to match or outbid Edmonton to keep him (allegedly the difference was only around $15K between the two teams, which makes it even more dumb). That basically assured themselves of going from being an 8-10 win team, to being the worst team in the league. All because of $15-20K.

[argolio]

I'm counting Touchdowns Thrown or Rushed. 3 times MBT scored 0. Let that sink in. In 3 CFL Games where weather was Not a factor he threw or rushed for 0 TDs.

The fact that you have to argue over a single Field Goal really says it all.So three out of 16 for MBT in games where he threw at least one pass. Using your logic, Franklin was not a factor in three out of the seven games where he threw a pass. One of those ratios is far better than the other.

And whatever you want to say about MBT, he still wasn't the one who put up a nothing-burger in what should have been a showcase game for Franklin against a bad B.C. team. Must have been bad weather in the dome that night.

[Neely2005]

So three out of 16 for MBT in games where he threw at least one pass. Using your logic, Franklin was not a factor in three out of the seven games where he threw a pass. One of those ratios is far better than the other.

And whatever you want to say about MBT, he still wasn't the one who put up a nothing-burger in what should have been a showcase game for Franklin against a bad B.C. team. Must have been bad weather in the dome that night.

First you argued about a Single Field Goal. Now you're Strawmaning about Franklin.

Once again that really says everything that you need to know about how bad MBT was.

Hopefully neither Franklin or MBT will ever wear an Argonauts uniform again.

[ArgoGabe22]

Anyone who thinks MBT is a bad QB really needs to widen their understanding of football. There was a stretch in the mid to late season where he was one of the top 2 QBs statistically. He marched the team and put them in positions to win the game. I’m not sold he’s the guy either BUT I’d welcome him back and let him compete. If it’s him and Arbuckle. Or him and Collaros.

[R.J]

https://3downnation.com/2019/12/18/phillip-lolley-resigns-as-eskimos-defensive-coordinator/

Argos would be smart to make the call. Lolley would be my first choice at DC, very closely followed by Thorpe.

[gilthethrill]

https://3downnation.com/2019/12/18/phillip-lolley-resigns-as-eskimos-defensive-coordinator/

Argos would be smart to make the call. Lolley would be my first choice at DC, very closely followed by Thorpe.

Lolley really did an amazing job in Hamilton when promoted to DC from LB coach when the team started out 0-8 a couple seasons back. I am sure Dinwiddie knows of his work .

[Antwon]

Would have liked to see Benevides join the Argos. So we'll see who they go with now.

[ArgoGabe22]

https://3downnation.com/2019/12/18/phillip-lolley-resigns-as-eskimos-defensive-coordinator/

Argos would be smart to make the call. Lolley would be my first choice at DC, very closely followed by Thorpe.

Reported earlier that Lolley was concerned that he couldn't coach next season because of a family member's health situation and would have to take the year off to be the care giver.

[R.J]

Reported earlier that Lolley was concerned that he couldn't coach next season because of a family member's health situation and would have to take the year off to be the care giver.
Yeah, I just saw that on Riderfans. Hopefully everything works out well for Lolley and his family. On to Thorpe hopefully, as I'd much rather have Thorpe over someone like Claybrooks.

[AngeloV]

Anyone who thinks MBT is a bad QB really needs to widen their understanding of football. There was a stretch in the mid to late season where he was one of the top 2 QBs statistically. He marched the team and put them in positions to win the game. I’m not sold he’s the guy either BUT I’d welcome him back and let him compete. If it’s him and Arbuckle. Or him and Collaros.

This.^^^^^^^^^^^^

[OV Argo]

Cory Chamblin is known as a defensive specialist; freed from the extra duties and stress of being a HC, he might excel now as just a DC - with more built-up CFL experience. Chamblin should be in the mix to be the "new" Argo DC; of course along with strong candidates like Claybrooks. Lolley and Thorpe ... now that Benevides is taken.

[R.J]

Cory Chamblin is known as a defensive specialist; freed from the extra duties and stress of being a HC, he might excel now as just a DC - with more built-up CFL experience. Chamblin should be in the mix to be the "new" Argo DC; of course along with strong candidates like Claybrooks. Lolley and Thorpe ... now that Benevides is taken.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/4cc02ad6acd6b6c17a931ec2549359d0/tenor.gif?itemid=7533973

[AngeloV]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/4cc02ad6acd6b6c17a931ec2549359d0/tenor.gif?itemid=7533973

I think what you meant is the greatest Barry Bonds quote ever...“Next question, because it was Stupid.”

[Argo57]

Anyone who thinks MBT is a bad QB really needs to widen their understanding of football. There was a stretch in the mid to late season where he was one of the top 2 QBs statistically. He marched the team and put them in positions to win the game. I’m not sold he’s the guy either BUT I’d welcome him back and let him compete. If it’s him and Arbuckle. Or him and Collaros.

Very sensible and accurate summary👍

[argolio]

First you argued about a Single Field Goal. Now you're Strawmaning about Franklin.

Once again that really says everything that you need to know about how bad MBT was.

Hopefully neither Franklin or MBT will ever wear an Argonauts uniform again.I used your very own criteria to compare our QBs. Your very own numbers say one was clearly better than the other.

Don't blame me for believing in your criteria more than you do.

[Neely2005]

I used your very own criteria to compare our QBs. Your very own numbers say one was clearly better than the other.

Don't blame me for believing in your criteria more than you do.

No my comment was very clear: MBT was shutout in 2 Games. You disagreed, I proved you wrong.

You then tried to deflect by talking about Franklin in an attempt to change the subject.

[AngeloV]

[QUOTE=argolio;147690]I used your very own criteria to compare our QBs. Your very own numbers say one was clearly better than the other.

Don't blame me for believing in your criteria more than you do.[/QUOTE

Not including the last 2 games in which MBT played only a half a game....

In 12 games MBT started, which included a shutout loss, the Argos scored an average of 22.8 points per game. Overall outscored by their opponents 337-274

In the 4 games he didn't start, they averaged 11.25, being outscored by their opponents overall 192-45.
Any Quarterback that doubles the output of the teams other QB in terms of points scored can't be that bad.

Nuff said.

[Neely2005]

[QUOTE=argolio;147690]I used your very own criteria to compare our QBs. Your very own numbers say one was clearly better than the other.

Don't blame me for believing in your criteria more than you do.[/QUOTE

Not including the last 2 games in which MBT played only a half a game....

In 12 games MBT started, which included a shutout loss, the Argos scored an average of 22.8 points per game. Overall outscored by their opponents 337-274

In the 4 games he didn't start, they averaged 11.25, being outscored by their opponents overall 192-45.
Any Quarterback that doubles the output of the teams other QB in terms of points scored can't be that bad.

Nuff said.

Again nothing to do with what I said but you go ahead and keep trying to deflect from the embarrassment that MBT was shutout in 2 CFL games last season.

[Will]

You are all aware that this thread is about Ryan Dinwiddie becoming head coach of the Toronto Argonauts and not for the latest MBT pissing match right?

[GregR]

Lol

[argolio]

No my comment was very clear: MBT was shutout in 2 Games. You disagreed, I proved you wrong.
You then tried to deflect by talking about Franklin in an attempt to change the subject.1 disagreed with your definition of what it means for a QB to get shutout. Then I used your criteria to prove that one of our QBs was clearly better than the other. And according to your criteria, MBT's three in 16 ratio was better than two veteran starters, Mike Reilly (four in 16) and Trevor Harris (three in 13). Guess they should be REALLY embarrassed and fired by rockets into the sun.


You are all aware that this thread is about Ryan Dinwiddie becoming head coach of the Toronto Argonauts and not for the latest MBT pissing match right?Good luck to him!

[AngeloV]

Figured I'd bump this thread.
Marshall Ferguson interviewed Dinwiddie yesterday and played it on his show today. The interview is at the beginning of this hour, so no need to search for it.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/hamilton-1150/marsh-and-melo-hour-3-february-3rd-2021-1.1587136