83 Argo GC D

[OV Argo]

Needing a fix for CFL ball - i pulled out an old VHS tape of the 83 GC - outstanding game and finally the Argos get the Grail after a long, dry period !

What a boat-load (get it ?) of talent on that Argo defence - all starters, but 2, on that D were CFL (all-CFL or Conference) all-stars at one time in their careers:

D-line: Rick Mohr & James Curry (all-CFL for the Argos in 84 with 22 sacks !), at DE, and Franklin King at DT

LBs - William Mitchell (East all-star all 3 of his Argo seasons), Darrell Nicholson (East all-star as a rookie that 83 season) & Don Moen

DBs - Ken MacEachern, Carl Brazley, Leroy Paul, Darrel Wilson

And the 2 who were not CFL all-stars at one time were DB Marcellus Greene who came to the CFL as an NFL draft pick, and DT Earl Wilson, who went on to play in the NFL after his excellent Argo play.

Held the powerful BC offence (Roy Dewalt & Merv Fernandez) to under 20 points to help get the GC win.

Up there with best Argo Ds of all-time (71, 87/88 & 96/97 groups in the mix) ?

[paulwoods13]

The 1983 defence was indeed an excellent group, and interestingly it was almost completely turned over from 1982. Only holdovers among the starters were Rick Mohr and Darrel Wilson. As it happens, I interviewed Dennis Meyer yesterday (the only Argo coach who was there for both 1983 and 1991) and he said, unprompted, that "we didn't have a very good defence" in 1982. No wonder they turned over 10/12ths of it.

IMO the 1991 defence also merits consideration as best ever, and in fact I'd rate it right up there with 1977, which is still my all-time favourite D.

[Will]

I tweeted a little bit about this the other day. I did up a passing log for Argo QB's in 1982 and there was several games where Condredge Holloway threw for over 350 yards with little or no interceptions and the Argos still lost. Specifically, on August 13, 1982 he goes 28/38/450/3/0 in a 37-27 loss against Hamilton, on September 11, 1982 he goes 26/46/445/3/0 in a 30-25 loss to Hamilton and on October 11, 1982 he goes 37/53/436/2/1 in a 39-35 loss to the Blue Bombers. In addition, he threw for 383 yards against Calgary (34-30 win) and 420 yards against Saskatchewan (41-36 win).

Sazio and O'Billovich did a nice job of rebuilding the defence for the 1983 season. Argos beat the Lions that season 17-14, 32-14 and 18-17, and the Lions averaged 33 points in their other 13 games. Argos also beat Warren Moon and the Eskimos 19-15 and 22-15 that season when the Eskimos averaged 30 points in their other 14 games. The Argos defence arguably only has 4 poor performances that season (in the regular season) and that was the two games against Calgary. The Argos won the season opener 45-30, but allowed Gerry Dattilio to throw for 381 yards and 4 touchdowns. Argos were blown out 49-20 on September 24, 1983 allowing a QB named Bernard Quarles to look like the second coming of Warren Moon. They also had a poor performance against Dieter Brock's Ticats in the east final, which was won by Holloway having one of his best games in an Argo uniform. Dieter Brock also had a good game against the Argos in the regular season when he was still with Winnipeg and Tom Clements played well in beating the Argos (as a Ticat).

The record book shows that the 1991 Argos surrendered 526 points, but that was second fewest in the league that season! Consider that the 1991 Roughriders surrendered 710 points, which is nearly 40 points a game. I assume part of your research Paul has been to watch the 1991 season. Reading through old news reports, I've gathered that special teams and defence was, at times, keeping the Argos afloat more than a potent offence. The offence struggled against Winnipeg (as many teams did) and it was the defence that helped win those games. The defence is also heavily credited for a win at Ottawa in the early fall. I believe we discussed the personnel in a previous thread.

The best Argo defence of my lifetime was probably 1997. It's interesting that as good as those teams were there wasn't a player who recorded 10+ sacks in a season. The 1997 team gave up 327 points (18/game) and held 6 out of 18 opponents to less than 10 points and only surrendered 30+ points on two occasions. That defence had the three Smiths (Lester, Donald and Adrion) in the secondary, Mike O'Shea and Reggie Givens at linebacker and Rob Waldrop on the d-line.

The 2006 and 2007 Argos had very good defences as well even if they fell short of the Grey Cup. The Argos offence in 2006 stunk and was inconsistent in 2007. Down the (regular) season stretch in 2007 was the best I've seen the Argo defence play during my (hardcore) fandom. The 1987-1988 teams also had very good defences that also ultimately fell short.

[Tobin Rote]

The 1983 defence was indeed an excellent group, and interestingly it was almost completely turned over from 1982. Only holdovers among the starters were Rick Mohr and Darrel Wilson. As it happens, I interviewed Dennis Meyer yesterday (the only Argo coach who was there for both 1983 and 1991) and he said, unprompted, that "we didn't have a very good defence" in 1982. No wonder they turned over 10/12ths of it.

IMO the 1991 defence also merits consideration as best ever, and in fact I'd rate it right up there with 1977, which is still my all-time favourite D.

Thanks Paul. Can you please assist those of us with memory challenges by listing the regulars by position on the Argos 1977 defensive line-up.

[Argo57]

Some personal favourites from the 1977 team.
Jim Corrigall
Ray Nettles
Nick Bastaja
Paul Bennett
Granny Liggins
Shame that both Bastaja and Bennett had excellent CFL careers elsewhere.

[gilthethrill]

A late preseason trade with BC in 83 brought both Rick Mohr (who started immediately at DE) and rookie LB Don Moen (special teams IIRC). Not sure who went the other way. James Curry came late in the season via waivers from a Western team, and he, despite his discipline issues, was dominate opposite of Mohr.

Paul Woods, please feel free to fill in any blanks.

Mohr and Moen may have been acquired in 1982....

[Argo57]

A late preseason trade with BC in 83 brought both Rick Mohr (who started immediately at DE) and rookie LB Don Moen (special teams IIRC). Not sure who went the other way. James Curry came late in the season via waivers from a Western team, and he, despite his discipline issues, was dominate opposite of Mohr.

Paul Woods, please feel free to fill in any blanks.

Mohr and Moen may have been acquired in 1982....

I liked Curry, a very good player who definitely played on the edge.
I remember OB giving him royal shit on the sidelines when he got turfed from the 83 Eastern Final.

[Will]

A late preseason trade with BC in 83 brought both Rick Mohr (who started immediately at DE) and rookie LB Don Moen (special teams IIRC). Not sure who went the other way. James Curry came late in the season via waivers from a Western team, and he, despite his discipline issues, was dominate opposite of Mohr.

Paul Woods, please feel free to fill in any blanks.

Mohr and Moen may have been acquired in 1982....

They were acquired on or about July 4, 1982 in exchange for the Argos 1st and 2nd round picks in the 1983 draft.

[Argo57]

They were acquired on or about July 4, 1982 in exchange for the Argos 1st and 2nd round picks in the 1983 draft.

Very good trade for the Argos, Sazio knew what he was doing.

[paulwoods13]

Very good trade for the Argos, Sazio knew what he was doing.

That was a good trade, but it was made much more palatable because Argos had stockpiled a ton of Canadian talent under Willie Wood so didn't really need those draft picks. I doubt Sazio or anyone else knew Moen would develop into a starter for a decade. Sazio also made a few terrible deals, especially Danny Bass for Reggie Lewis in 1981.

[Argo57]

That was a good trade, but it was made much more palatable because Argos had stockpiled a ton of Canadian talent under Willie Wood so didn't really need those draft picks. I doubt Sazio or anyone else knew Moen would develop into a starter for a decade. Sazio also made a few terrible deals, especially Danny Bass for Reggie Lewis in 1981.

As a whole Sazio’s body of work in Toronto was very good, the Danny Bass trade wasn’t one of his better moves but hiring O’Billovich turned out to be a great move.
All in all OB and Sazio managed to turn a perennial laughingstock into a very competitive team which was a miracle in itself.

[paulwoods13]

Thanks Paul. Can you please assist those of us with memory challenges by listing the regulars by position on the Argos 1977 defensive line-up.

My recollection is the defensive line had Jim Corrigall and Wayne Smith at end, Ecomet Burley, Bruce Smith and Granny Liggins rotating through at tackle.

Ray Nettles was a ferocious, nasty middle linebacker, with Ron Foxx and Gord Knowlton/Rick Sowieta outside.

Secondary had a lot of ballhawks: Eric Harris and Jim Marshall at CB, Ike Thomas and "Peanut" Thomas (not sure -- that might have been the same guy, actually) at HB and Paul Bennett as a fantastic rookie safety.

[paulwoods13]

All in all OB and Sazio managed to turn a perennial laughingstock into a very competitive team which was a miracle in itself.

Yes. If only Sazio had been willing to spend a bit of Carling O'Keefe's money on marketing the team. Instead, the Blue Jays marketed the crap out of themselves and developed an entire generation of young fans while the Argos' fanbase aged away, and some of it got more interested in baseball after the drought ended in 1983.

[Argo57]

Yes. If only Sazio had been willing to spend a bit of Carling O'Keefe's money on marketing the team. Instead, the Blue Jays marketed the crap out of themselves and developed an entire generation of young fans while the Argos' fanbase aged away, and some of it got more interested in baseball after the drought ended in 1983.

True, Sazio was an old school CFL guy who concentrated solely on the Argos on field product, I suspect marketing was a foreign subject to him.
Regarding the Blue Jays starting in about 1982 you could see they were starting to make strides in becoming a good team.
Speaking of executives that knew what they were doing IMO Pat Gillick remains the greatest GM in Toronto sports history.

[argolio]

Yes. If only Sazio had been willing to spend a bit of Carling O'Keefe's money on marketing the team. Instead, the Blue Jays marketed the crap out of themselves and developed an entire generation of young fans while the Argos' fanbase aged away, and some of it got more interested in baseball after the drought ended in 1983.True, the Jays marketed themselves like demons right from the start. Anyone remember their TV ads with comedian Arte Johnson?

The Argos seemed content to believe that the existing football set-up (OUAA, junior, high school, etc.) would produce Argo fans forever. Today a lot of that infrastructure is either gone or diminished.

[gilthethrill]

That was a good trade, but it was made much more palatable because Argos had stockpiled a ton of Canadian talent under Willie Wood so didn't really need those draft picks. I doubt Sazio or anyone else knew Moen would develop into a starter for a decade. Sazio also made a few terrible deals, especially Danny Bass for Reggie Lewis in 1981.

Who was the Argo GM that brought Holloway to Toronto in return for fine Canadian O-lineman Kevin Powell during the 81 offseason? Willie Wood wasn’t both HC and GM was he?

[OV Argo]

My recollection is the defensive line had Jim Corrigall and Wayne Smith at end, Ecomet Burley, Bruce Smith and Granny Liggins rotating through at tackle.

Ray Nettles was a ferocious, nasty middle linebacker, with Ron Foxx and Gord Knowlton/Rick Sowieta outside.

Secondary had a lot of ballhawks: Eric Harris and Jim Marshall at CB, Ike Thomas and "Peanut" Thomas (not sure -- that might have been the same guy, actually) at HB and Paul Bennett as a fantastic rookie safety.


Paul - that 77 Argo D also featured Lorne Richardson - an outstanding Canadian DB who they stole from the Riders (where he was a CFL all-star from rookie on in for 4 seasons); I'm not sure between Richardson & Bennett who played safety or D-half ? There was a DB Dave Thomas listed as playing 2 games in 77, so not Ike Thomas.

A few years later the Argos stole away another outstanding Canadian DB from the Riders in Ken MacEachern - on that 83 GC Argo team.

Not sure what the Argos did to both Richardson & MacEachern as it seems they joined the Argos (hardly at old football age) and then lasted one season and packed it in ? Injury damage? Didn't take to Hogtown ? And to top it off, in 88 the Argos D acquired yet another outstanding Canadian safety - Laurent Deslauriers - who had started with the Esks, and he plays one Argo season and then that's the end of his CFL career ???

[OV Argo]

My recollection is the defensive line had Jim Corrigall and Wayne Smith at end, Ecomet Burley, Bruce Smith and Granny Liggins rotating through at tackle.

Ray Nettles was a ferocious, nasty middle linebacker, with Ron Foxx and Gord Knowlton/Rick Sowieta outside.

Secondary had a lot of ballhawks: Eric Harris and Jim Marshall at CB, Ike Thomas and "Peanut" Thomas (not sure -- that might have been the same guy, actually) at HB and Paul Bennett as a fantastic rookie safety.


77 Argo D = another CFL all-star resume laden unit:

D-line : DEs Wayne Smith & Jim Corrigall; DTs, Burley & Liggins

LBs - Nettles, Fox. Sowieta

DBs - Harris, Marshall, Richardson & Bennett


So, like that 83 D; 10 of 12 positions manned by players (even if they were in a rotation of playing time in 77 - like vet Liggins or rookie Sowieta) who were CFL all-stars at one time in their careers ! (And similar to 83 also - a non CFL all-star member of that 77 D - Ike Thomas - had NFL draft pick on his resume).

[SkalbaniasGhost]

1977 - The team of misfit toys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSjpmhcSSL0


And to top it off, in 88 the Argos D acquired yet another outstanding Canadian safety - Laurent Deslauriers - who had started with the Esks, and he plays one Argo season and then that's the end of his CFL career ???
Laurent Deslauriers previous knee injury and playing on that brutal turf at Exhibition stadium were probable factors in his early retirement.

[OV Argo]

1977 - The team of misfit toys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSjpmhcSSL0


Laurent Deslauriers previous knee injury and playing on that brutal turf at Exhibition stadium were probable factors in his early retirement.


Deslauriers was part of that all-time great UBC 82 Vanier Cup Champs team - DB & kick returner star and also played some receiver; goes on to be all-CFL safety as a rookie with the Esks; too bad he had to hang em up and couldn't have stayed with the Argos for many years - one of the most talented CFL safeties of all-time perhaps, in a fairly short career. That UBC 82 team went undefeated - winning the Vanier and topping it off by beating cross-town rival Simon Fraser (playing US college ball) in the old annual Shrum game.

And back to that 83 GC game - a nice showcase for UBC football players - Brent Racette starting at DE for the Lions with Kevin Konar & Bernie Glier at LB; and Don Moen and Paul Pearson (key catch to set up the winning TD) for the Argos.

Those good Lions teams of the 80s featured so many local products from both UBC & Simon Fraser; back in the day when way more Canadian players got a shot to be impact players in the CFL.

[Tobin Rote]

My recollection is the defensive line had Jim Corrigall and Wayne Smith at end, Ecomet Burley, Bruce Smith and Granny Liggins rotating through at tackle.

Ray Nettles was a ferocious, nasty middle linebacker, with Ron Foxx and Gord Knowlton/Rick Sowieta outside.

Secondary had a lot of ballhawks: Eric Harris and Jim Marshall at CB, Ike Thomas and "Peanut" Thomas (not sure -- that might have been the same guy, actually) at HB and Paul Bennett as a fantastic rookie safety.

Thank you Paul... and now that I see the names... that was one hell of a defensive unit for sure. Has there ever been a pair of Canadian defensive ends on one team that was better than Corrigal and Smith? Nettles was a beast... and I especially liked two of the younger NCAA grads on that defense... Eric Harris and Ecomet Burley. Paul Bennett has a major impact as a rookie as well. Good times!

I seem to recall Lorne Richardson playing quite a bit in that defensive backfield as well.

[paulwoods13]

Thank you Paul... and now that I see the names... that was one hell of a defensive unit for sure. Has there ever been a pair of Canadian defensive ends on one team that was better than Corrigal and Smith? Nettles was a beast... and I especially liked two of the younger NCAA grads on that defense... Eric Harris and Ecomet Burley. Paul Bennett has a major impact as a rookie as well. Good times!

I seem to recall Lorne Richardson playing quite a bit in that defensive backfield as well.

Yes, as you and OV both pointed out, Richardson was in there as well. I had forgotten about him. I think he played halfback and Bennett played safety, but not sure about that. There were two Thomases in the secondary, as I thought. "Peanut" must have been Dave (not to be confused with John Candy's running mate Dave Thomas). He played two games late that season as well as the playoff game. Ike Thomas played 11 games and the playoff game. I believe "Peanut" replaced Ike in the regular season, not sure how both guys managed to suit up for the playoff game alongside Marshall and Harris -- an import must have come out somewhere else that day.

[paulwoods13]

Who was the Argo GM that brought Holloway to Toronto in return for fine Canadian O-lineman Kevin Powell during the 81 offseason? Willie Wood wasn’t both HC and GM was he?

Tommy Hudspeth was the GM, but it was Willie who made the deal. Willie was the de facto head of football ops. Hudspeth's job was mostly contract negots.

[Will]

Yes, as you and OV both pointed out, Richardson was in there as well. I had forgotten about him. I think he played halfback and Bennett played safety, but not sure about that. There were two Thomases in the secondary, as I thought. "Peanut" must have been Dave (not to be confused with John Candy's running mate Dave Thomas). He played two games late that season as well as the playoff game. Ike Thomas played 11 games and the playoff game. I believe "Peanut" replaced Ike in the regular season, not sure how both guys managed to suit up for the playoff game alongside Marshall and Harris -- an import must have come out somewhere else that day.

The Star reported the day of the game that Leo Cahill was intending to use "Peanut" as a wide receiver.

The article (nor that day's sport section) did not list projected defensive starters beyond a d-line of Wayne Smith, Ecomet Burley, Granville Liggins and Jim Corrigall

[OV Argo]

Yes, as you and OV both pointed out, Richardson was in there as well. I had forgotten about him. I think he played halfback and Bennett played safety, but not sure about that. There were two Thomases in the secondary, as I thought. "Peanut" must have been Dave (not to be confused with John Candy's running mate Dave Thomas). He played two games late that season as well as the playoff game. Ike Thomas played 11 games and the playoff game. I believe "Peanut" replaced Ike in the regular season, not sure how both guys managed to suit up for the playoff game alongside Marshall and Harris -- an import must have come out somewhere else that day.


Maybe that hoser Dave Thomas dressed as an extra DB for that game; very hard to believe they would have sat down either of Richardson (4 straight seasons all-CFL before he came to the Argos) or Paul Bennett (all-CFL as a rookie that 77 season) for an inexperienced import; or, maybe one of the starting DB was injured and unable to go that play-off game ?

BTW - are there copies of games from that 77 season , and especially the play-off loss to Ottawa, out there ?; as I've pointed out before, my old Argo memories are not the greatest; I may have attended that game in Ottawa, or at least I would have wanted to and was too broke or too buzzed to get it together for tickets to that game ??? ;o)

77 Ottawa team was coming off a GC win in 76; still had Clements & Holloway at QB; Tony Gabriel as a force at TE/slot; and their offence also featured a rookie big, bruising fullback - Mike Murphy (Ottawa GGs) who put up 861 rushing yards + 483 receiving yards (over 1300 yards from scrimmage from a rookie fullback ? ! - those were the days when a fullback was often a force in a CFL offence)

[SkalbaniasGhost]

BTW - are there copies of games from that 77 season , and especially the play-off loss to Ottawa, out there ?; as I've pointed out before, my old Argo memories are not the greatest; I may have attended that game in Ottawa, or at least I would have wanted to and was too broke or too buzzed to get it together for tickets to that game ??? ;o)



Montreal vs Argos at the Big O
Tuesday Night Football
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSjpmhcSSL0

Two of the other games (BC,Edmonton) keep getting pulled down on Youtube for Copyright violations.
The league office fails again.





(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSjpmhcSSL0)

[Will]

Are we certain that it is the league issuing the copyright claims?

I know that Newton Minnowowski's 1st channel got taken down, but I always thought it was the NHL, MLB and NFL giving him trouble as opposed to the CFL.