CFL/XFL Collaboration

[dmont]

*Whoops* stupid auto correct. Please change to CFL/XFL Collaboration.

Holy moly, big news. The two leagues have entered formal discussions and the XFL has put their 2022 plans on hold, pending outcome of their CFL discussions. Analysts and insiders are getting the sense that this may involve inter-league play.

I've been considering this for a while without really thinking there was ever a chance. With lots of qualifications (rules, schedules, salaries, etc) I think inter league play between two independent leagues would be a great idea.

[doubleblue]

Somebody over on the Riders site mentioned that the CFL team could play down south early in the season. Maybe something like a home and home type thing over all. CFL play XFL rules when they visit the XFL cities, and teams would play CFL rules when the XFL teams play a return game in Canada in May. Games count in their respective standings. CFL teams could be allowed to play all their Americans on their 45 man roster when playing XFL teams. I believe the XFL season ends in late June or early July, while the CFL season would continue on past Thanksgiving. Playing two games against XFL teams could create more interest on both sides of the border for the CFL. Got to try something.

[gilthethrill]

Do I dare get my Memphis Maniax shirt out of the closet? Will it still fit???

[AngeloV]

This entire thing is embarrassing. Ambrosie plans a press release to say basically nothing. I've defended him in the past, but now I am tiring of him at a rapid pace. I don't see how planning to partner up in any way with a league that has died twice can be beneficial in any way. That entire league was sold for less than the annual operating costs of 1 team in the CFL.

And to no ones surprise, Ambrisie made this announcement while not consulting with the PA. This stooge needs to be shown the door.

[AngeloV]

XFL would do well as a 3 down league and the longer / wider field imo.

Also where the Canadian Football League would never be accepted south of the border an alternatively named league with the same rules just might. Again imo.

A fair arrangement with the players at 50% of revenues would also solve a lot of issues

Just remember, there aren't a lot of football stadiums in the US that can fit a Canadian field. The stadiums are built to accommodate their field and get the seats as close as possible to the field. I say there is no way the XFL would ever play with our rules.

[Argo57]

This entire thing is embarrassing. Ambrosie plans a press release to say basically nothing. I've defended him in the past, but now I am tiring of him at a rapid pace. I don't see how planning to partner up in any way with a league that has died twice can be beneficial in any way. That entire league was sold for less than the annual operating costs of 1 team in the CFL.

And to no ones surprise, Ambrisie made this announcement while not consulting with the PA. This stooge needs to be shown the door.

I’ve never been impressed with Ambrosie at all.
He has created more division and mistrust between the owners and PA during his tenure.
Talks a lot and says nothing of substance or value, his performance and lack of preparation when asking the government for a subsidy last year was beyond embarrassing.
Your last sentence says it all, this goof has zero respect for CFL players who in turn have zero respect for him.
The guy is a total train wreck.

https://3downnation.com/2021/03/10/cflpa-was-caught-off-guard-by-cfl-xfl-announcement/

[doubleblue]

Just remember, there aren't a lot of football stadiums in the US that can fit a Canadian field. The stadiums are built to accommodate their field and get the seats as close as possible to the field. I say there is no way the XFL would ever play with our rules.

IMO most US fans can't get their head around the 3 down thing. Some other current CFL rules they might be ok with. Just have to look at their acceptance of some of the quirky XFL rules. But I think the bottom line here for the CFL is MONEY. The old saying, money talks. Wouldn't be surprised if MLSE is driving the bus now. Isn't "No Body" Junior now the CFL Governor?

["Issues"Mcgee]

My initial reaction is that yes, a straight merger would be a threat to the Canadian rules, the Canadian game and the historical greatness which needs not be explained here.

This isn't anything to worry about though. Nothing concrete has been mentioned whatsoever.

There are positive opportunities that could stem from talks like this. They could come up with a program to better define movement of players between leagues. This could potentially help with development and contract stability. Potentially.

Another possibility is the creation of something similar to the Champions League, where teams from both leagues would have to qualify. A Canada vs USA angle could bring more interest to the CFL.

I think we should just wait and see. I don't believe this is automatically a bad move.

[OV Argo]

This entire thing is embarrassing. Ambrosie plans a press release to say basically nothing. I've defended him in the past, but now I am tiring of him at a rapid pace. I don't see how planning to partner up in any way with a league that has died twice can be beneficial in any way. That entire league was sold for less than the annual operating costs of 1 team in the CFL.

And to no ones surprise, Ambrisie made this announcement while not consulting with the PA. This stooge needs to be shown the door.


Bang-on AV !!!

The CFL is trying to recover from a lost season and hopefully get back on track with more interest and moving forward (10th team in Atlantic Canada should be a goal that is stressed, while reviving interest in Toronto & BC).

They needed this joke / fiasco like a hole in the head. Ambrosie is a total @$$-hat IMO - an embarassment is right.

But hey, it it's all about money, why not sell the CFL to The Rock (/ whatever clowns), and let him do as he pleases - merge the 2 leagues, go to 4 downs and other American rules, and get rid of Canadian players (they wouldn't even rate a try-out from the new, improved GOB club). BTW - how much money would all CFL ownership groups put together have? - less than The Rock i guess ?

Amazing some of the comments i am reading elsehwere on this topic though - the usual suspects who would think nothing of getting rid of Canadian content or rules in a new, improved (to them) CFL; makes me want to puke.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

This entire thing is embarrassing. Ambrosie plans a press release to say basically nothing. I've defended him in the past, but now I am tiring of him at a rapid pace. I don't see how planning to partner up in any way with a league that has died twice can be beneficial in any way. That entire league was sold for less than the annual operating costs of 1 team in the CFL.

And to no ones surprise, Ambrisie made this announcement while not consulting with the PA. This stooge needs to be shown the door.

He is exactly what the league management wanted.

[OV Argo]

He is exactly what the league management wanted.

That's probably the very sad truth.

[Antwon]

I have no idea where this is going. But a large portion of the media automatically assumed it's a merger and CDN rules are gone. Obviously they're going for tweets and click bait.
The CFL is in a bad spot financially, and in part because of the Feds and provinces complete pandemic and vaccine screw ups that have us way behind.
The CFL has it's long history and credibility. The XFL has rich owners but a history of failed leagues to overcome. My take the CFL wants to increase cash flow and the XFL wants more credibility. Maybe some shared resources and possibly games between the two are in the future.
Maybe the CFL is using this as leverage to get some federal funding, or perhaps get TSN to pony up more or get games on CTV.
I think the CFL needs to get through the season with minimal losses and plan for the future. I think single game betting will be a huge benefit financially and and increase fan engagement and new fans. The way the governments have been throwing pandemic money out they're not going to pass on this cash cow!

[Skinny G]

Have a listen to DT's podcast with Ambrosie. DT and Clayton make reference to Tim Horton's now being Brazilian (not Canadian), and DT basically asks whether the Canadian aspect will be protected. Ambrosie gives a long winded BS answer. He keeps using the same story/concept (and has said it over the years now, I believe it's the same concept prior to the 2.0 initiative which I do support) about kids that don't go to games. He was trying to use this to minimize the Canadian Ratio, which he got killed for.

He's so concerned about kids that don't go to games, but doesn't see all the kids and people that go to games. We collaborate with folks in the Argos office, as we bring groups of friends who bring their kids, as well as people that have never been to a game. They always ask about going to more games, espcially the kids. Just seems like he's getting lazy to put in the work.

Compare that to Jim Mullin - he's putting in the work to grow the game from the grass roots level, he's leading discussions, but shouldn't the CFL be more of a leader? Mullin is recognizing you have to grow the game to grow the interest. Was always open before to giving Ambrosie a chance, but I think it's time to move on. Rather have someone like Mullin who is willing to put in the effort.

Also, what happened to being proud of the CFL? That the CFL is the second largest league? How great our game is? Where was that today?

Also, if the league is strapped for cash, what happened waiting for the betting bill that looks like it may get passed? Also, going back to an old rumour, MLSE has comparable financial resources, so you may as well have them take over the league.

https://chatnewstoday.ca/2020/10/01/football-canada-to-stage-summit-with-the-aim-of-helping-grow-the-game-nationally/


(https://chatnewstoday.ca/2020/10/01/football-canada-to-stage-summit-with-the-aim-of-helping-grow-the-game-nationally/)https://c1-blue.futuripost.com/ckrm/playlist/sportscage-march-10th-2021-6805.html?sc_ref=twitter

[Shatto]

Whenever a major initiative is undertaken or even explored, there should be two priorities--First, a clear understanding by all parties as to the purpose or goal to be achieved by the initiative and second, key participants have to be involved early to get their buy in. We have absolutely no idea of the purpose of this initiative and the key individuals affected (the players) were, it appears, not even informed much less consulted. This smacks of the same level of incompetency that Ambrosie demonstrated in his disastrous efforts to acquire government funding.

Is this to help the league financially? Is it to gain some sense of acceptance by American fans? Is it to create a new league altogether? Is it to have some type of player sharing? Is it just to create media interest and excitement for the CFL?

This is not to imply, some form of co-operation between the CFL and XFL couldn't be a potential benefit for our league but it will require sound leadership, diplomacy and foresight. So far Ambrosie has not demonstrated he has those talents and skills. I agree with OV that the prime concern of the league should be recovering from a lost season and moving forward with a 10th team in Atlantic Canada.

[jerrym]

This entire thing is embarrassing. Ambrosie plans a press release to say basically nothing. I've defended him in the past, but now I am tiring of him at a rapid pace. I don't see how planning to partner up in any way with a league that has died twice can be beneficial in any way. That entire league was sold for less than the annual operating costs of 1 team in the CFL.

And to no ones surprise, Ambrisie made this announcement while not consulting with the PA. This stooge needs to be shown the door.

Ambrose seems to jump out in front of everyone again. I can't see this working to any significant extent. Even players playing in the two leagues in separate seasons is hard to see on an ongoing basis because the players bodies would not get time to recover from the brutal nature of football if this was done repeatedly. The different types of ownership would be a major stumbling block to any deep cooperation. Many Americans never give a thought about anything in Canada, let alone Canadian football, so trying to generate interest in Canadian teams playing American teams in the US would be a steep mountain to climb. Furthermore, how long before there would be demands to reduce the number of Canadians playing if the leagues got involved in interlocking schedules?

[paulwoods13]

Judging by what's been written in this thread, this won't be a popular take. I think many (if not the vast majority of) fans do not realize just how dire the CFL's financial situation is. The current business model is broken, maybe irreparably. What the league (and let's be clear, Ambrosie is not doing this on his own) is doing is looking for a way to make the business sustainable. Whether they can find that through talks with the XFL remains to be seen, but at least they are looking. The alternative -- continue with the status quo -- will almost certainly result in the eventual death of the CFL, IMO.

As for not informing the players, while I fervently believe in the concept of co-operating with your partners, you also have to trust them to keep their mouths shut until you are ready to go public with something. I'm betting the league (again, not just Ambrosie) does not have such trust in the PA.

[argolio]

There's no harm in talking, but what's the upside for the CFL? I can't see the XFL getting a lucrative broadcast deal. None of the other recent spring leagues have.

The 1990s American expansion was difficult enough. The idea of two leagues playing games against each other despite using different rules and starting their seasons months apart sounds like a logistical nightmare.

Tread carefully, CFL.

[Mightygoose]

The best things right now is to keep an open mind. More years and more specifically months now, people have been saying the league needs to change their business model and Covid-19 likely accelerated this.

Nothing wrong with talking and the fact they have been in conversations for months informally suggests the parties like what they have seen. I have no problem with how Ambroise presented it. Time to let people know serious talks are now in the works and they have.

[shayman]

There's no harm in talking, but what's the upside for the CFL?

sadly there are probably enough football fans in this country who look down on the CFL, but who will embrace the big shiny thrill of playing against American cities that this just might have a hope of working.

[paulwoods13]

Anything that might increase revenue potential would be considered to have an upside, IMO. Whether any arrangement with the XFL would do that remains to be seen, but the league absolutely needs to search for ways to become profitable across all franchises, not just a few.

[OV Argo]

Anything that might increase revenue potential would be considered to have an upside, IMO. Whether any arrangement with the XFL would do that remains to be seen, but the league absolutely needs to search for ways to become profitable across all franchises, not just a few.


You said anything right? - so if clowns & strippers hawking beer in the stands, and The Rock hosting an extended half-time show featuring wrasslin' cage matches, plus converting to all American rules, was on the agenda for the CFL, you'd be good with that and buying tickets still ?

[carlos]

CFL was sleeping when they auctioned off the XFL assets. To think they could have had it all for under $20 million.

[doubleblue]

Judging by what's been written in this thread, this won't be a popular take. I think many (if not the vast majority of) fans do not realize just how dire the CFL's financial situation is. The current business model is broken, maybe irreparably. What the league (and let's be clear, Ambrosie is not doing this on his own) is doing is looking for a way to make the business sustainable. Whether they can find that through talks with the XFL remains to be seen, but at least they are looking. The alternative -- continue with the status quo -- will almost certainly result in the eventual death of the CFL, IMO.


As for not informing the players, while I fervently believe in the concept of co-operating with your partners, you also have to trust them to keep their mouths shut until you are ready to go public with something. I'm betting the league (again, not just Ambrosie) does not have such trust in the PA.

Sometimes I agree with PW and I have to say this is one of those times. And I might add I don't for a minute believe what Randy tries to implies, that they are just starting to talk with the XFL. I believe talks have been going on for quite a while.

[Wobbler]

The news is so vague that I find it hard to have an opinion of any kind.

[paulwoods13]

You said anything right? - so if clowns & strippers hawking beer in the stands, and The Rock hosting an extended half-time show featuring wrasslin' cage matches, plus converting to all American rules, was on the agenda for the CFL, you'd be good with that and buying tickets still ?

Your rants speak for themselves and need no help from me, OV.

[Will]

The news is so vague that I find it hard to have an opinion of any kind.

What Wobbler said.
Simply keep an open mind.

[OV Argo]

Your rants speak for themselves and need no help from me, OV.

Afraid to answer the question i see ?

Clowns and half-time rasslin' aside; simple question: if the CFL got absorbed by or combined with the XFL, and the deal was that the rules of the new league were mostly American football like, would you still be an Argo / XCFL fan and buy tickets to attend games or watch as much of the league on TV as you have in the past ? And after all, if the CFL is "just a business" like any other, and the bottom line is all that matters, surely you would support the new venture if it meant the Argos were a bit more profitable ?

[gilthethrill]

CFL was sleeping when they auctioned off the XFL assets. To think they could have had it all for under $20 million.

You do realize the CFL was dealing with monumental financial losses due to the cancellation of the 2020 season. Where were they going to find under $20 million for XFL assets? And why?

[argos1873]

CFL was sleeping when they auctioned off the XFL assets. To think they could have had it all for under $20 million.

What would they have done with their assets? Plus like someone mentioned, where would they get the money at this time?

Regardless, while I have both concern and slight optimism about such a deal between the CFL and a league that barely exists, the fact remains we know nothing about what an arrangement would even look like, since all we've been told is that the 2 entities were looking to engage in talks. So for now, everything is just pure speculation. People, not necessarily on this forum, have them already merged up and the CFL playing 4 downs. Good lord, it could be something as simple as partnering up on CFL 2.0 for global players or whatever. Who knows.

[paulwoods13]

Afraid to answer the question i see ?

Oh no, I have been exposed for the coward that I am. I might have known you would see right through me.

[doubleblue]

Afraid to answer the question i see ?

Clowns and half-time rasslin' aside; simple question: if the CFL got absorbed by or combined with the XFL, and the deal was that the rules of the new league were mostly American football like, would you still be an Argo / XCFL fan and buy tickets to attend games or watch as much of the league on TV as you have in the past ? And after all, if the CFL is "just a business" like any other, and the bottom line is all that matters, surely you would support the new venture if it meant the Argos were a bit more profitable ?

What a novel idea OV, half time rasslin. How about the Women's World Championship at BMO (they're always world championship's aren't they) at half time. The place would be rockin. I might have to find my old binoculars. ;)

[Skinny G]

We agree with you Paul, that they need to look at finding increased revenue streams, and understand that the league is probably in very bad shape financially, however looking at this from both a fan of the league, but also from a business stand point (my brother and I are business analysts and have experience with retail, customer/service mgt, and sales/marketing), the handling of the announcement was absolutely terrible. Being the commissioner and someone with the corporate experience he has, he should recognize how important communication is.

Do we feel having a conversation with the XFL is a bad thing, absolutely not! Think it’s a smart idea. But not being somewhat more open and direct in messaging is the problem, because it leaves too much to speculation and a feeling that the league is begging for money, and will give up anything for it.

Some thoughts

He just seems willing to sell out too quickly. Going to CFL 2.0 (which we think is a good initiative), who were originally going to lose the roster spots? Canadians! If there is a merger of sorts, what makes anyone think that Ambrosie wouldn’t sell out the Canadians again? No Canadians, 4-down football…don’t think that will help anything and may make things worse, and I know I’m not keeping season tickets for that!
Referencing the Rock’s social media followers doesn’t guarantee anything, just because he has Twitter/Instagram followers doesn’t mean that all of a sudden stadiums will be packed and the world will rush to watch a game
Being in such financial need, you would’ve thought he would have come to that review with the Finance Committee more organized and with clear information, and with the players, but we saw how that turned out.
Look at the how a solid and real leadership model works over in the NBA. How much constant communication there is with Adam Silver and Chris Paul, and it was like that with David Stern as well.
If they do some sort of merger, that would cost the CFL Teams quite a bit more, as they would have to pay in US Dollars, and may be forced to pay higher salaries than they do now
The XFL did not have a players union, how would the CFLPA take that?
If he wants to engage with more youth, it’s surprising to hear that he (as the commissioner of the league) and the CFL only became an associate member with Football Canada in 2020
Look at the amount of effort that Jim Mullin is putting in to help grow the game, align football, try to help sell the game, and market, etc. Where is the league here to help this, shouldn't they recognize that supporting this only helps the CFL as well?
We sent a bunch of suggestions to the Argos leadership in the past, on how to engage more youth (some of which they’ve used). Basically, there is a lot that can be done and hasn’t been done yet by the league to get those youth out. If we want a model, use the Raptors before they were popular, and you’ll know what we’re talking about.
1/2

[Skinny G]

Can good come out of this? Sure! Here are some suggestions (and others have made similar ones)

Maybe the XFL joins the CFL 2.0 initiative with XFL as a larger player or co-lead with the CFL? Therefore partners in Canada, US, Mexico, and around the world!
Playing/Selling games in Europe and other parts of the world, similar to NFL to generate revenue and more hype and support for the leagues
Align scheduling somehow to be able to sell the TV/streaming rights. Currently the XFL would go against College Basketball and into NHL and NBA Playoffs potentially. Couldn’t have the games between Feb to Apr in Canada.
Selling a combined product for TV/streaming rights (DAZN, etc) – can either sell a CFL/XFL product, or a CFL 2.0 deal
Marketing partnerships and shared resources
Selling the Game together, maybe doing a “Pro Bowl”/All Star game for charity to promote both leagues. This might be cool from a brand marketing standpoint
Support a Video Game (let’s still not forget that the CFL has not yet been willing to support the Maximum Football where they could have already had a game)
The other aspect that may a big part of the discussion is betting. I don’t know if the CFL is worried that the Canadian legislation might not pass, or if they are seeing if they can leverage the XFL’s in game betting system for international betting. If they can somehow leverage this to generate revenues for both leagues, that would be a win win, and add in the Canadian betting, and that would have a huge positive financial impact to the league.
So can there be a positive partnership between the CFL/XFL, of course there can, but “selling their soul” could put the league in an even worse position then they are in today.

2/2

[OV Argo]

MLSE = net worth of a billion buck$ plus ?

[carlos]

You do realize the CFL was dealing with monumental financial losses due to the cancellation of the 2020 season. Where were they going to find under $20 million for XFL assets? And why?

That's the beauty of a private corporation. Annual estimated revenues prior to 2020 were $200 million per. CFO is out to lunch if required financing could not be obtained. Never before has it ever occurred to me that the CFL is a business more than at the present. All they really want is your money.

[paulwoods13]

That's the beauty of a private corporation. Annual estimated revenues prior to 2020 were $200 million per. CFO is out to lunch if required financing could not be obtained. Never before has it ever occurred to me that the CFL is a business more than at the present. All they really want is your money.

It is not a private corporation. It is nine separate businesses, with an association structure. The CFL did not have $200M in revenues. The nine teams combined might have, but they are separate entities. And further complicating things is the fact there are three distinct ownership structures: widely held public, individual owners and conglomerate owners. The notion that they could (or should) have pooled resources to buy XFL assets seems both fanciful and beside the point, does it not?

[Skinny G]

Here is what Jim Mullins (someone who CLEARLY loves our game and our league!) posted last night about this - https://twitter.com/Jim_MullinTSN

Here are some personal thoughts from someone on the front lines of amateur football in Canada after the news broke yesterday regarding the CFL and XFL discussing possible alignment paths. /1

Canadian Football was my gateway into football and remained the vehicle to why I, along with legions of fans, coaches, officials, volunteers and media across Canada, dedicate their time, energy and passion to building the game./2

Today, football is much more than the 12-man game in our country. It is 6-man for kids and small towns. It is flag for beginners and Team Canada at World Championships. It is our world junior team winning back-to-back gold medals playing American Football. /3

For some, contributing to something uniquely Canadian can be more significant than the sport itself. Our Canadian game is just that; it’s ours. It does not belong to a league, a conference or an association. It's a set of values we share that sustain us as an unlikely nation. /4

In a country that asks so little of us to be Canadian, football demands our better self; To make disparate parts work in unison, with a dedication to the community and a focus on resourcefulness. /5

The CFL has decisions to make as a league to set it on a sustainable pathway as a business instead of remaining a philanthropic institution. However, alignment within the sport in Canada needs to remain a primary objective. /6

Cities, municipalities, schools and universities have installed infrastructure specific to our game. The league cannot radically alter their game in isolation without adverse effects on our sport. /7

Let’s move forward with confidence in what we’ve developed in over 150 years of Canadian football. Let’s dialogue with those globally who respect what we’ve achieved in our sport. And, if a visiting team wants a game here, stand proud & invite them to play our game. #playourgame

[Skinny G]

Clearly Bob Young is one of the leads behind this whole merger, and doesn't care about the Canadian Game & CFL as much as he likes to say he is.
Via CFL_New Twitter/Fan 590. - https://twitter.com/CFL_News

@CaretakerBob (https://twitter.com/CaretakerBob)

- "100 years ago you weren't allowed to pass the ball forward. Our rules do keep changing. As long as they change for the better our fans will follow us. If they change for the worse, they won't follow us." #CFL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hashtag_click) #XFL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/XFL?src=hashtag_click) #Ticats (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ticats?src=hashtag_click) via @FAN590 (https://twitter.com/FAN590)

[ArgoGabe22]

"100 years ago you weren't allowed to pass the ball forward. Our rules do keep changing. As long as they change for the better our fans will follow us. If they change for the worse, they won't follow us." #CFL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hashtag_click) #XFL (https://twitter.com/hashtag/XFL?src=hashtag_click) #Ticats (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ticats?src=hashtag_click) via @FAN590 (https://twitter.com/FAN590)

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. Minor tweaks are fine like OT, converts etc. but is the wider field, 12 players, 3 downs really an issue that needs tweaking?

[paulwoods13]

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. Minor tweaks are fine like OT, converts etc. but is the wider field, 12 players, 3 downs really an issue that needs tweaking?

The game could be perfect, but if the audience keeps dwindling it eventually won't matter -- there will be no game to celebrate.

And as I've argued here and elsewhere, there are things in the CFL rulebook that have made the game less entertaining than it used to be. Twelve men, three downs and field size aren't on that list, but neither should they be sacred cows. "If it ain't broken" doesn't apply IMO -- the biz model that underpins the game itself is in fact broken.

[OV Argo]

Oh no, I have been exposed for the coward that I am. I might have known you would see right through me.


Yep; looks like it; so be it then.

[OV Argo]

Here is what Jim Mullins (someone who CLEARLY loves our game and our league!) posted last night about this - https://twitter.com/Jim_MullinTSN

Here are some personal thoughts from someone on the front lines of amateur football in Canada after the news broke yesterday regarding the CFL and XFL discussing possible alignment paths. /1

Canadian Football was my gateway into football and remained the vehicle to why I, along with legions of fans, coaches, officials, volunteers and media across Canada, dedicate their time, energy and passion to building the game./2

Today, football is much more than the 12-man game in our country. It is 6-man for kids and small towns. It is flag for beginners and Team Canada at World Championships. It is our world junior team winning back-to-back gold medals playing American Football. /3

For some, contributing to something uniquely Canadian can be more significant than the sport itself. Our Canadian game is just that; it’s ours. It does not belong to a league, a conference or an association. It's a set of values we share that sustain us as an unlikely nation. /4

In a country that asks so little of us to be Canadian, football demands our better self; To make disparate parts work in unison, with a dedication to the community and a focus on resourcefulness. /5

The CFL has decisions to make as a league to set it on a sustainable pathway as a business instead of remaining a philanthropic institution. However, alignment within the sport in Canada needs to remain a primary objective. /6

Cities, municipalities, schools and universities have installed infrastructure specific to our game. The league cannot radically alter their game in isolation without adverse effects on our sport. /7

Let’s move forward with confidence in what we’ve developed in over 150 years of Canadian football. Let’s dialogue with those globally who respect what we’ve achieved in our sport. And, if a visiting team wants a game here, stand proud & invite them to play our game. #playourgame

Good for Jim Mullin - bravo !!! Canadian football needs way more like him, IMO.

People are jumping the gun on what will happen with these XFL talks, and some are seeing doom & gloom. But who really knows at this point.

But IF the CFL does undergo radical changes including converting to American rules and further reductions in Canadian talent getting real shots to play in the big league in their own country, then I won't be watching the (X)CFL anymore; don't care if the BOGs make oodles of ca$h and they get noticed in the USA. Some up here might go for a shiny new XCFL, but I bet a lot won't and would still crave real Canadian football.

So, there might become a void for a new league of Canadian football - one that is not run by Americans / for Americans like the current CFL has evolved to. One that maintains Canadian football rules, tradition & history and values top Canadian talent playing. And groups and people like Football Canada & Mr. Mullin along with some wealthy backers might get a chance to form such a league - would be a tough road probably, but you never know.

[AngeloV]

The game could be perfect, but if the audience keeps dwindling it eventually won't matter -- there will be no game to celebrate.

And as I've argued here and elsewhere, there are things in the CFL rulebook that have made the game less entertaining than it used to be. Twelve men, three downs and field size aren't on that list, but neither should they be sacred cows. "If it ain't broken" doesn't apply IMO -- the biz model that underpins the game itself is in fact broken.

To me, changing the amount of downs and the field size is a non starter. If the league goes to 4 downs, you will see a lot more running, a lot more time consuming drives, and not necessarily more excitement. Again, to me, the beauty of the CFL is that each team has a lot more possessions per game, be it because of the 2 and out factor, or just quick strike TD's. The fact that there are more possession changes, keeps games in doubt longer. Much more opportunity for late game comebacks, and truly the reason we say no lead is safe in the CFL.

I really hope this turns out to be a whole lot about nothing, much like pretty well everything else that comes out of Ambrisie's mouth.

As I have said earlier, I don't see how this will benefit the CFL in any way. There will be no guaranteed money coming from US TV. XFL didn't have it, and neither did the AAFL. I think Ambrosie and the league are thinking that Dwayne Johnson's popularity alone will bring the league a financial winfall. I don't see it. Pro football in the US will not succeed unless it is the NFL. The last league that had a chance was the USFL, because they paid comparable salaries to the NFL and were able to take some top talent away. These days, that is impossible.

[paulwoods13]

To me, changing the amount of downs and the field size is a non starter. If the league goes to 4 downs, you will see a lot more running, a lot more time consuming drives, and not necessarily more excitement.

The recent history of the NFL says otherwise. Three yards and a cloud of dust hasn't existed since the 1970s.

IMO the NFL has been significantly more entertaining (at least as a TV product) than the CFL for quite some time. I would never have said that 30-40 years ago, but that's how it looks to me now.

If making rules revisions a non-starter means no pro football in Canada, then hope the powers that be would consider rule changes before they allow the league to die. Much as I hate to say it, I think the latter is entirely possible even with rule changes; the ability to exist indefinitely without profit is not unlimited, even for mega-corps like MLSE.

[ArgoGabe22]

IMO the NFL has been significantly more entertaining (at least as a TV product) than the CFL for quite some time. I would never have said that 30-40 years ago, but that's how it looks to me now.

Do you mean the NFL as a whole for just the marque matchups of the NFL are better than the CFL? Because there are a lot of terrible teams and overall games in the NFL as well. Many may not make it to the airways (unless you have PPV). There have been some great NFL games, no doubt and I agree the CFL has perhaps hit a plateau while the NFL has improved over the years. BUT I think only a few team teams kind of carry that impression vs the actual league. Would you rather watch worst two teams of the CFL play each other or the worst of the NFL? I think the CFL has the advantage when it comes to watching bad teams.

[paulwoods13]

Do you mean the NFL as a whole for just the marque matchups of the NFL are better than the CFL? Because there are a lot of terrible teams and overall games in the NFL as well. Many may not make it to the airways (unless you have PPV). There have been some great NFL games, no doubt and I agree the CFL has perhaps hit a plateau while the NFL has improved over the years. BUT I think only a few team teams kind of carry that impression vs the actual league. Would you rather watch worst two teams of the CFL play each other or the worst of the NFL? I think the CFL has the advantage when it comes to watching bad teams.

Sure, the marquee matchups in the NFL are better than the dog games, but there are a lot of NFL teams that are good and/or entertaining, hence a lot of attractive matchups. Conversely, in a league with just four games per week, there are weeks with no really attractive games. I'd rather not watch two bad teams play each other in any league, but the NFL at least has vastly superior TV production. Given a direct choice, I'd probably watch the CFL dogs because their result probably matters in some way to the Argos. But as I've written on Twitter, my interest in non-Argo CFL games has waned for several years. I don't go out of my way to watch if Argos are not playing, other than playoff games. That's a reflection of many factors, but one of them is the fact that the CFL game has become less entertaining than it used to be, IMO.

[AngeloV]

The recent history of the NFL says otherwise. Three yards and a cloud of dust hasn't existed since the 1970s.



I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

[Argo57]

Very interesting that a league that has failed twice is seen as a lifeline for the CFL’s survival.
I don’t see a “merger” succeeding in any way.
4 down football on a Canadian size field would lead to slow methodical drives dominated by running plays which would be painful to watch IMO.
What currency would the players be paid in?
Would American players want to play for Canadian teams if they have the option to play for a team down south? (I say no).
What rules would they play under?
When would the season start and finish? Starting the CFL season earlier in the year would potentially conflict with the NHL playoffs conversely shifting the XFL season to later in the year starts to conflict with with NFL training camps and the start of their season. (Good luck with either scenario).
Randy Ambrosie is involved, zero faith in him or his “vision” for the CFL.

[OV Argo]

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

Agree with what you are saying.

But maybe people are jumping the gun here with thinking that the CFL would see big changes in play / rules / rosters ?

When it might be that both the CFL & XFL are going to partner and come up with some smart & sharp ideas for resource sharing and with new good revenue streams ? Then maybe the CFL game would remain mostly the same with some new resources ?

Again though - IF they are thinking major changes to the CFL in terms of rules & play to become American football like, I believe it will be a HUGE error and miscalculation. They might retain a decent share of their current die hard fan base, but IMO they will lose LOTS of fans who might be disgusted with the sell-out; and IMO, the new fans (lovers of The Rock or hip new social media types and assorted wannabes) they might gain would not come close to the # of Canadian football fans they would lose. Be careful what you wish for, GOBs & BOGutless types.

[paulwoods13]

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

It had not occurred to me that you were referring to four downs on CFL-sized fields. I find it hard to imagine we would go to four-down football but leave something as important as field size untouched. But I grant that four downs on a CFL-sized field might increase the amount of running. Altho no form of adult football -- NFL, CFL, college -- is run-heavy these days so it seems unlikely to me that CFL teams/coaches would suddenly load up to run the ball most of the time. If one or two did, tho, how terrible would that be? I (and others, including some I seldom agree with) have bemoaned the sameness of CFL offences. A run-heavy approach from a team or two might be refreshing and would almost certainly force defences to stop all looking the same as each other. Much as I love passing, I've also enjoyed those periods when the Argos were able to ram the ball down defences' throats (with Wilder, Kackert and Boyd at times in recent vintage).

As for why the XFL would provide financial stability, without knowing what's in store it's impossible to say whether it would or would not work. But there is zero doubt in my mind that the CFL has to do something to change a dying business model. I say this with sadness but (IMO) realism. The league as we know it, in nine cities including Toronto, cannot become successful enough to stay in business much longer unless it finds new sources of revenue, or finds a way to dramatically slash costs (and the latter would mitigate against the former, probably). Partnering with another league, however new and unproven that league might be, is not on its face either a good idea or a bad idea. It's what the partnership looks like that matters, and we don't yet know. But we do know that Dwayne Johnson has an online presence that reaches eons beyond what the CFL has ever had on its own. We all seem to agree that the CFL needs to attract more paying customers -- if a guy like Johnson can get some of those for it, that's worth looking at.

BTW, I was crunching some numbers today. Even though I expected to see something like this, the numbers are rather stunning.

In 2020, the NFL averaged 49.5 points per game. In 2019, the CFL averaged 49.6 points per game.

In 1990, the NFL averaged 40.2 points per game. So its scoring has gone up 23 per cent since then.

In 1990, the CFL averaged 61.9 points per game. So its scoring has gone down 20 per cent since then.

[OV Argo]

Still believe there could be a trial balloon aspect to this news coming out. As dim-witted as I believe Ambrosie and some of the BOGutless types are, they might be thinking let's gauge media and fan & public reaction to this news/idea, and then decide to proceed from there ?

[shayman]

Here's an idea. 4 downs. but to make 10 Metres, not 10 Yards. You've got to go about 10% further per down. Our downs are bigger. And the field is 100 metres, which is pretty close to 110 yards. Distinctly Canadian, metric football.

[Skinny G]

MLSE = net worth of a billion buck$ plus ?

Net Worth - MLSE

- Probably around $5-6 Billion (2.5 Billion for Raptors, 1.5/1.8 for Leafs, + Real Estate and other ventures)
- Add Bell Media - Net Assets $60 Billion, Rogers - Net Assets $30 Billion, Kilmer Group (Tannenbaum) - $2 Billion

Networth XFL
- Rebird (Gerry Cardinale) - $4 Billion US
- Dany Garcia - $20 Million US
- The Rock - $400 Million US

Went through the Redbird investment advisor profiles, this people look like they will be there with Cardinale - Andy Gordon, Nicole Musicco, Alec Scheiner, Mike Zabik, Niraj Shah, Isaac Halyard, Michael Kaplan, Brent Stehlik

Here's Cardinale's Profile
https://www.redbirdcap.com/people/#member-406-info

Other Profiles
https://www.redbirdcap.com/people/

Redbird has also recently taken a sports acquisition company public. From the article "SPAC companies are generally used to raise money, which is stored in escrow for two years, while officials seek to acquire distressed or companies for sale."

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/28/private-investment-firm-redbird-capital-announces-plans-to-take-a-new-sports-company-public.html

Let's think about another Canadian (now American/Brazilian) company that was purchased by a private equity firm - Tim Hortons. It's all about money to those firms, and nothing more.

I'll say again, if this is TRULY about a partnership, great. But the lack of clarity smells fishy.

[OV Argo]

Hey - what's Calgary Sports and Entertainment net worth ?

What's Bob-O Young's net worth ?

Wonder about Roger Greenberg ?

Man, the CFL is mired in poverty; gotta reach out to The Rock and sell-out the CFL ;o)

"Fishy" - more like gang of corporate clowns who really don't give a rat's @$$ about the CFL and Canadian football - gotta stay focused on their bottom line @$$es

[Skinny G]

As for why the XFL would provide financial stability, without knowing what's in store it's impossible to say whether it would or would not work. But there is zero doubt in my mind that the CFL has to do something to change a dying business model. I say this with sadness but (IMO) realism. The league as we know it, in nine cities including Toronto, cannot become successful enough to stay in business much longer unless it finds new sources of revenue, or finds a way to dramatically slash costs (and the latter would mitigate against the former, probably). Partnering with another league, however new and unproven that league might be, is not on its face either a good idea or a bad idea. It's what the partnership looks like that matters, and we don't yet know. But we do know that Dwayne Johnson has an online presence that reaches eons beyond what the CFL has ever had on its own. We all seem to agree that the CFL needs to attract more paying customers -- if a guy like Johnson can get some of those for it, that's worth looking at.


Have a listen to Chris Cuthbert's interview.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/rintoul-show/chris-cuthbert-flames-business-sutter-blueprint/

Agree with you, they need to find other sources of revenue. So why did the CFL not accept the invitation to be there with the House of Commons committee around Bill C-218? Everyone has been talking about how much of a positive financial impact it would be to have sports betting in Canada.

Also, he calls out that the league still hasn't looked at a revenue sharing model.

CFL 2.0 is supposed to bring in TV revenue, and understanding the pandemic impacted that, this is still something that can generate revenue. There was a lot of progress with this initiative, but like has been the case with Ambrosie, start something, don't finish it, and move on to the next shiny penny.

Also, social media followers does not guarantee people will be in the stands. Sure it's a nice to have.

[Skinny G]

Hey - what's Calgary Sports and Entertainment net worth ?

What's Bob-O Young's net worth ?

Wonder about Roger Greenberg ?

Man, the CFL is mired in poverty; gotta reach out to The Rock and sell-out the CFL ;o)

"Fishy" - more like gang of corporate clowns who really don't give a rat's @$$ about the CFL and Canadian football - gotta stay focused on their bottom line @$$es


Calgary Sports & Entertainment - $1-2 Billion probably? (Flames are around $500 Million, the main owner himself Murray Edwards is around $1.75 Billion)

Bob Young - I think around $500 Mil to $1 Billion, haven't found it yet

Roger Greenberg - $1.5 Billion

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Let's think about another Canadian (now American/Brazilian) company that was purchased by a private equity firm - Tim Hortons. It's all about money to those firms, and nothing more.

I'll say again, if this is TRULY about a partnership, great. But the lack of clarity smells fishy.

Your instincts are right.

It's not going to be a partnership. The CFL crew will be shown the door.

[Shatto]

If the purpose of the XFL/CFL initiative is to increase the revenue stream and there doesn't seem to any other credible reason, then it certainly isn't clear how this could be achieved. As stated by others on this thread, any league not called the NFL, has to the greatest extent failed to deliver any large revenue stream from TV. How a merger or even a closer arrangement between the leagues would provide a good revenue stream, needs to be fully explained.

If, in order to merge, the CFL were to convert to a spring/summer schedule, go to 4 downs and 11 players, move to the smaller American field, eliminate Canadian content, many of the present fans would, IMO, desert the league. Why watch a watered down version of the NFL, when we can see the "real" thing on TV. It would also precipitate an increase demand for Toronto and perhaps Montreal to attract an NFL franchise, thus eventually spelling the end of the CFL. Whenever, launching a major initiative an organization needs to explore the negative consequences of the change and the negative consequences of the initiative could possibly spell the end of the CFL

This is not to say there couldn't be some advantages of a closer connection between the two leagues. Perhaps a game between the Grey Cup champs and the winner of the XFL championship, though the logistics would be very difficult to work out, especially with wildly different schedules and the very different rules.

There has also been discussion whether the NFL or CFL provides more excitement. One aspect of the CFL that is truly more exciting, is the fact that the game is never really over when so much can happen in the last three minutes of our game. The interesting issue is the presentation of the two products on TV. PW makes a very interesting observation that "the NFL has been significantly more entertaining as a TV product" and "the NFL has vastly superior TV production". If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it, then the real problem would appear to be the less than exciting and entertaining TV presentation by TSN. Maybe, we should be demanding the production level of the TSN's game presentations be greatly improved

If the present CFL is going to have difficulty continuing because of financial issues, perhaps the league needs to look at full gate revenue sharing. A more dramatic suggestion would be moving to a Canadians only, league. That would certainly encourage coaches to develop and play Canadian QB's. Personally, I would prefer to watch a Canadian only CFL, than a watered down and inferior version of the NFL---or is that being too Canadian of me?

[OV Argo]

If the purpose of the XFL/CFL initiative is to increase the revenue stream and there doesn't seem to any other credible reason, then it certainly isn't clear how this could be achieved. As stated by others on this thread, any league not called the NFL, has to the greatest extent failed to deliver any large revenue stream from TV. How a merger or even a closer arrangement between the leagues would provide a good revenue stream, needs to be fully explained.

If, in order to merge, the CFL were to convert to a spring/summer schedule, go to 4 downs and 11 players, move to the smaller American field, eliminate Canadian content, many of the present fans would, IMO, desert the league. Why watch a watered down version of the NFL, when we can see the "real" thing on TV. It would also precipitate an increase demand for Toronto and perhaps Montreal to attract an NFL franchise, thus eventually spelling the end of the CFL. Whenever, launching a major initiative an organization needs to explore the negative consequences of the change and the negative consequences of the initiative could possibly spell the end of the CFL

This is not to say there couldn't be some advantages of a closer connection between the two leagues. Perhaps a game between the Grey Cup champs and the winner of the XFL championship, though the logistics would be very difficult to work out, especially with wildly different schedules and the very different rules.

There has also been discussion whether the NFL or CFL provides more excitement. One aspect of the CFL that is truly more exciting, is the fact that the game is never really over when so much can happen in the last three minutes of our game. The interesting issue is the presentation of the two products on TV. PW makes a very interesting observation that "the NFL has been significantly more entertaining as a TV product" and "the NFL has vastly superior TV production". If this is true and I have no reason to doubt it, then the real problem would appear to be the less than exciting and entertaining TV presentation by TSN. Maybe, we should be demanding the production level of the TSN's game presentations be greatly improved

If the present CFL is going to have difficulty continuing because of financial issues, perhaps the league needs to look at full gate revenue sharing. A more dramatic suggestion would be moving to a Canadians only, league. That would certainly encourage coaches to develop and play Canadian QB's. Personally, I would prefer to watch a Canadian only CFL, than a watered down and inferior version of the NFL---or is that being too Canadian of me?

Well, I, for one, would gladly watch a new Canadian league with Canadian players only vs. watching my historic Toronto Argos play in a new XCFL featuring American rules football and American players only need apply - guarantee I would not watch that at all. I would still watch some NFL ball or some US college ball though.

The former has zero chance of happening with any of the current clique of CFL GOBs & BOGutless types involved; the latter - wouldn't be at all surprised to see come to pass.

Not a matter of being "too Canadian " IMO; more like having some decent respect for the tradition & history of Canadian Pro Football, and wanting to see top Canadian players (at all positions) get a shot to play in the big league in their own country.

[OV Argo]

I never said it would be 3 yards and a cloud of dust. But with yards per carry in the CFL considerably higher for backs than they are in the NFL, you will see more rushing if it goes to 4 downs. NFL still has a lot of quarters where each team only has 1 possession. With 16 games a week, there are going to be 5 or 6 great, really exciting games. But there are still a lot of unwatchable games every week. CFL has some too, don't get me wrong. But most of us watch EVERY CFL game, because the schedule allows us to do so. I'm sure if you watched EVERY NFL game throughout the week, your thought of the NFL being more exciting might just be less than what it is.

Again though, I will once again ask. Why would anyone think the XFL would provide the CFL with any form of financial stability? From it's history of dying twice? Or does "the Rock" have that much power over people that they will buy anything he is involved in? XFL can benefit from this partnership more than the CFL. I think the league is making a huge mistake here and are thinking this partnership will help in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I say it will have ZERO long term success.

You're bang-on AV about some of us getting to watch pretty well every game in a 9 (or even 10) team CFL season; you can get to know every team pretty well and look forward to the different match-ups; I've always been more of a pan-CFL fan rather than just a pure Argo fan.

OTOH - unless you are a total football junkie who does nothing but watch NFL games on tape all day long, there is no way you can know that league as well as a big CFL fan knows the CFL.

And there has almost always been great games in a week of both CFL & NFL scheds. IMO; sure better chance of seeing a great NFL game with 16 games in a weekend to (possibly) watch; but they are very different games and trying to compare and decide one game is so much better or exciting than the other = don't get that. And IMO, the Grey Cup (and CFL play-offs AND U Sports ball play-offs) almost yearly blow away most NFL big games, for entertainment and pure football value. NFL Tom Brady GOAT hero-worshipping makes me want to puke at times. Cause i like CFL ball better, but I still appreciate and watch great NFL action.

[dmont]

I think the CFL/XFL collaboration is exciting. Yes, there are lots of ways it can go wrong for the CFL, but there are also a few ways it could go right. After reading all the analysis and listening to all the podcasts, there seems to be a lot of confusion about how these teams could mutually benefit from cooperating. Here are my thoughts:
What the XFL needs from the CFL:
The infrastructure and institutional knowledge necessary to manage a football league. While the CFL hasn’t proven it can make a boatload of profits, they have successfully run football seasons for nine football teams since the 1950s. Without this, the XFL would be starting from scratch and would have to build their own, which is costly and prone to errors and growing pains. Why not take the money that they would have spent getting their management and logistical operations together and instead pay the CFL a fraction of the cost to do it for them? Collaboration here would take advantage of economies of scale.

Nine established teams that will be able to reliably field players week in and week out against the newly formed XFL sides. This means the XFL wouldn’t have to start off with 8 or 10 franchises (of which only 4 or 5 are strong). It could instead launch with the most promising 4 to 6 markets and then rely on inter-league play with the CFL teams to fill out their schedule. It allows them to grow slowly without placing undue pressure to launch in weak markets.

TV production relationship with TSN. The CFL already has an established relationship with a respected TV broadcaster in TSN that can produce football games with a first-class feel and appearance. We’ve seen spring football leagues be able to get on TV, but they were most likely paying for the production and not benefiting financially. While I’m sure inter-league games wouldn’t draw quite as well as CFL-only games, I expect that the additional content would be valuable to TSN and they would be willing to pay something for it. Those games could then be re-broadcast in the US for the XFL, who wouldn’t have to pay to produce the games and might even get a share of TSN money. That leaves the XFL having to only pay to produce the XFL-only games, which TSN could probably do best given that they already have the infrastructure and institutional knowledge. In sum, the XFL could save a lot on getting their games produced by piggy-backing on the CFL’s relationship with TSN.
What the CFL needs from the XFL:
Cooperation, not competition. I think the CFL looked at XFL 2.0 and saw an operation that almost worked, and might have even succeeded if not for COVID. While the CFL has survived upstart US leagues in the past, but all it takes is one to gather momentum and become a competitor that could put the CFL out of business, given the current shaky financial situation. Rather than continue to rely on luck, I think the CFL has decided it’s better to cooperate and have some influence on how spring/summer US football moves forward.

A marketing game-changer. Yes, there are lots of people in Canada who are not CFL fans, but the league has been trying to reach them for 15 years and has not been successful. This is not for lack of trying, and it could be that the current form of the league (only 9 teams, playing the same teams over and over) has exhausted its options for growth in Canada. It needs to make a splash in order to capture peoples’ attention. Look at how much media attention the CFL has gotten from just EXPLORING collaboration with the XFL. The opportunity for inter-league play, and having CFL teams analyzed by US sports outlets alongside the XFL teams, is shaking things up for a change and it could jumpstart interest in Canadian non-CFL fans. Also…

Increased US media exposure. While it continues to struggle to attract new fans in Canada, inter-league play with XFL provides exposure in the US that the CFL has never had. Showing games on ESPN has never worked because Americans didn’t care to see two Canadian teams competing. However, with CFL teams playing XFL teams, American outlets would have no choice but to pay attention and provide analysis for CFL teams and players. If the CFL’s collaboration allows the XFL to remain sustainable long enough to land a substantial TV contract, and the CFL becomes a stakeholder under this collaboration, then this could be the best opportunity to stabilize the CFL’s finances.

[dmont]

The best-case outcome for the CFL: Two independent leagues, with 1) inter-league regular season play, and 2) cooperation at the head-office level (media, salary cap, bylaws, etc). The highlights:

Rather than a Canadian ratio, the XFL teams could develop their own ratio involving players from local markets. For example, supposing the XFL only had teams in San Antonio and St. Louis, the league could define the cities and a set of counties around the cities that produce roughly the same number of professional players per-team than Canada produces.


Generally, the two leagues play a game that is mostly Canadian rules with some modifications to accommodate XFL stadiums. The biggest change would likely be shrinking the field in every stadium down to something like BMO field’s dimensions. It might also be tough to get the Americans to agree to put the goal posts at the front of the endzone, but compromising on this would remove the exciting missed FG return opportunities in the CFL.


Games on Canadian soil are played with 3 downs while games on American soil are played with 4 downs.


Each league has their own championship. No more inter-league play once playoffs begin.


For contributing logistical and administrative support, as well as contributing teams and TV relationships with TSN, the CFL becomes a voting shareholder in whatever corporation owns the XFL and has some kind of veto power over any big changes to the two leagues.
Why this would be good for the CFL:

By cooperating with the XFL rather than competing, the CFL can ensure parity between the leagues as a destination for players. If the XFL’s salary cap is equivalent to the CFL’s (accounting for exchange rates, taxes, and cost of living, etc) then there’s no worry that CFL teams will struggle to sign the best available non-NFL talent. This also goes for league bylaws (eg. opportunities for getting out of CFL/XFL contracts to sign with the NFL).


No post-season matches between CFL and XFL teams. The teams compete during the regular season, and wins/losses count in the standings of the respective leagues, but the Grey Cup remains the CFL championship. Also, it eliminates the need for the two leagues’ seasons to 100% align. All inter-league games could take place during the part of the year where the two seasons over lap (say… June and July). Then the XFL teams could have their playoffs while the CFL regular season continued.


No need to compromise on 3 vs. 4 downs. Since the two leagues are independent, simply have all games on Canadian soil be 3 down and all games on American soil be 4 down. I’m no football genius, but I don’t expect this to be too onerous for coaches and their coordinators. The CFL teams playing down south would simply get an extra down while XFL teams playing up north would start at second and long, for which they would already have plays in the playbook.


Having a local-player ratio in the XFL eliminates concerns about competitiveness between the two leagues. I’m no lawyer, but I believe this might overcome the legal arguments against mandating Canadian players since anti-discrimination laws (at least as far as I can tell) only forbid discrimination in employment on the basis of COUNTRY of origin. Other discrimination is allowed wherever the nature of the occupation requires the restriction. Well, a professional sports league requires that games be conducted without unfair advantage to one team. The local player ratio is the least-restrictive way to ensure that games between CFL and XFL teams are fair.


Having American sports programs talking about CFL teams might just be the jolt that some Canadian non-CFL football fans need in order to start paying attention to the league. Look at how psyched we got when American sports programs were talking about the Raptors and Toronto. Look how jazzed we get when Canadian athletes in the NCAA are recognized for their Canadian origins. Maybe it’s the inferiority complex that seems to exist in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal, but seeing American sports personalities seriously talking about CFL teams may work where all the other CFL marketing efforts failed.


Getting some share of whatever TV deal materializes for the XFL would provide additional streams of revenue for CFL owners that are badly needed.


Finally, despite all appearances… this would be fairly low-risk for the CFL. This is nothing like the CFL’s American expansion in the 1990s where the CFL expended its own resources trying to get these American franchises off the ground. If it worked out as described above, the XFL would be compensating the CFL head office for whatever resources were expended in scheduling and managing the logistics of XFL games. If the XFL goes belly-up again, it doesn’t take the CFL much to disengage. Really, they just go from having a set of inter-league games back to having only league games.

[paulwoods13]

Why watch a watered down version of the NFL, when we can see the "real" thing on TV.

Exact same question could be asked about MLS, and yet it seems to be growing steadily as a gate attraction.


Maybe, we should be demanding the production level of the TSN's game presentations be greatly improved


We absolutely should demand that, but the field size makes it more difficult. The NFL field size (plus 11 men a side) allows for tighter shots. I think NFL stadiums also have better lighting than some CFL stadiums, altho the CFL has improved a lot from the old days when there were giant shadows in some end zones.

[Antwon]

[/QUOTE]Agree with you, they need to find other sources of revenue. So why did the CFL not accept the invitation to be there with the House of Commons committee around Bill C-218? Everyone has been talking about how much of a positive financial impact it would be to have sports betting in Canada.

Also, he calls out that the league still hasn't looked at a revenue sharing model.

CFL 2.0 is supposed to bring in TV revenue, and understanding the pandemic impacted that, this is still something that can generate revenue. There was a lot of progress with this initiative, but like has been the case with Ambrosie, start something, don't finish it, and move on to the next shiny penny.

Also, social media followers does not guarantee people will be in the stands. Sure it's a nice to have.[/QUOTE]

“The government has had a justice committee reviewing a bill that would allow sports betting and the CFL elected not to accept the invitation to be there in committee. Now I’m told that they are filing off their views on it, I thought that was a missed opportunity,” Cuthbert said.

I don't get this. Single game betting is a lifeline for the CFL. I don't know politics but should they not have a voice everywhere they can?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this just seems like another example of how poorly the league is managed.

[Antwon]

Further to to the single game betting. That would bring added revenue to the CFL in Canada.
Perhaps the discussion with the XFL are more about how to get CFL games in the legalized betting in the US. Maybe some sort of minimum partnership that allows the CFL to keep most of it's rules, but gets them in and a piece of the betting pie.
Betting on football in the US is king and there's a huge void from March to September.

[doubleblue]

Just wondering about all the players being signed this off season, especially many ex-XFL players. It looks to me that the Rock and associates just might be funding the CFL this year as part of a deal for going forward. To keep some of these excess players cut this year would there be something to the idea of keeping a "practice team" around for replacements but also to keep these players in playing condition for next year. The XFL did this last year, with about 40 players with their own Coaches etc. but would be in shape and ready to step in for one of the 8 league teams. Their Head Coach was Bert Andrus, a CFL "veteran Coach". I'm sure Argo fans will remember. Lol

[Skinny G]

Exact same question could be asked about MLS, and yet it seems to be growing steadily as a gate attraction.



It is slowly growing, yes, but let's also understand that to watch ANY other professional soccer outside of MLS, you have to fly down to South America or across to Europe on a 7-8 hour flight. They are the only soccer league in North America that is at a certain professional level. Football? you can drive an hour to the US to watch another professional league. So is MLS slowly growing because it's the only option? Might be?


Also, isn't the fact that the CFL has a focus on gate attraction as the lead revenue generation the issue? We know that in Canada, MLS definitely needs that gate revenue because they are way lower in TV viewership. The CFL is way higher in TV viewership, but has the rough places like Toronto for attendance.


Steve Simmons says it perfectly here in this article from a few years back that says "Argos want what TFC has and vice versa"
https://torontosun.com/sports/football/cfl/toronto-argonauts/argos-want-what-tfc-has-and-vice-versa



Can we look at MLS in terms of business modeling? YUP! It's already been talked about before, and the question is why hasn't the CFL looked at a model similar to MLS that shares costs and has revenue sharing? Question is, why aren't we looking at what we can do prior to potentially selling out our game, from a business model, marketing, and development standpoint.

[Argo57]

More food for thought from Chris Cuthbert.

https://3downnation.com/2021/03/12/long-time-cfl-play-by-play-man-chris-cuthbert-worries-xfl-talks-are-a-deal-with-the-devil/

[paulwoods13]

It is slowly growing, yes, but let's also understand that to watch ANY other professional soccer outside of MLS, you have to fly down to South America or across to Europe on a 7-8 hour flight. They are the only soccer league in North America that is at a certain professional level. Football? you can drive an hour to the US to watch another professional league. So is MLS slowly growing because it's the only option? Might be?


Yes, it might. But it's not as if all the fans the CFL might have had are going to NFL games in person. TV coverage of Premier League (and other top soccer leagues) is not far off what's available in North America for NFL. I bet there are lots of people in Toronto who follow an EPL team closely, and TFC is their "local" team. I believe there is a group within the CFL that sees that same idea being possible for football in Toronto.



Also, isn't the fact that the CFL has a focus on gate attraction as the lead revenue generation the issue? We know that in Canada, MLS definitely needs that gate revenue because they are way lower in TV viewership. The CFL is way higher in TV viewership, but has the rough places like Toronto for attendance.

All true, but how can the CFL increase its TV (and digital) revenue if it stays as it is now? There's no evidence of international clamour for TV rights fees for CFL, but might there be increased revenue from a partner arrangement with XFL? That's likely being explored closely at the moment.


Question is, why aren't we looking at what we can do prior to potentially selling out our game, from a business model, marketing, and development standpoint.

That implies that the league and its teams have not already been doing exactly that. I find that impossible to believe. What is the path to change the business model and make the league profitable and sustainable? That's exactly what they have to figure out, but I've yet to hear any idea that seems sure to work, and certainly nothing that would disqualify exploration of partnership with the XFL.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Their Head Coach was Bert Andrus, a CFL "veteran Coach". I'm sure Argo fans will remember. Lol

Thank you Doubleblue. Years of therapy to get over the Bart Andrus experience and you go and bring him up again. Now I'm back to typing curled up in the fetal position again.

[OV Argo]

Conspiracy theory:

MLSE and especially Larrry NFL wannabe Tannebaum are still really craving a "Major League" NFL franchise and to rid themselves of the dinky little not "world class" CFL (that is losing so much money per year, in about 15 years it could pay for one of the Jay's player salary).

SO - they pretend the CFL needs a saviour/ quick fix and The Rock & co. have already reached out to explore sharing or merger or whatever. Now The Rock is not part of this conspiracy, he's just a "dupe" or "patsy" (as Lee Harvey Oswald called himself before he got shot) - actually likes the CFL and thinks a partnership would work (as long as the CFL gets rid of those quaint little Canadian rules and unfair ratio); but MLSE and Larry see this partnership failing (as all minor pro US leagues always do), but in the meantime, the XFL dupes pony up some ca$h for the CFL to help with some debt there; and MLarrySE know full well that this venture could anger the NFL - who don't like competition for dollars or players - but who previously held off on NFL expansion to Toronto for some respect for the CFL and for it to provide some sort of "buffer" or anti-trust lawsuit protection. Now the gloves are off though, and the XCFL crashes in no time, and even if it doesn't, the NFL is fast making plans for an expansion team in the huge Toronto market - with Larry at the helm.

A soon to be Hollywood production: movie script - to be written by B. McNall, and movie directed by Oliver Stone.

Toronto Argonauts - wrecked in a sea of red ink and sink never to be seen again; but hey, that's what happens when your ship's (business) model is unsound; and change and progress are a good thing.

;o)

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Conspiracy theory:

MLSE and especially Larrry NFL wannabe Tannebaum are still really craving a "Major League" NFL franchise and to rid themselves of the dinky little not "world class" CFL (that is losing so much money per year, in about 15 years it could pay for one of the Jay's player salary).

Toronto Argonauts - wrecked in a sea of red ink and sink never to be seen again; but hey, that's what happens when your ship's (business) model is unsound; and change and progress are a good thing.

;o)

NFL expansion is a strong possibility by 2025.The 2020 losses combined with the pending St.Louis lawsuit could result in the owners pursuing that option.
The NFL OTA media rights are going to be announced sometime in the spring.How much will Bell pay to maintain that relationship? Does Rogers win them?

[OV Argo]

NFL expansion is a strong possibility by 2025.The 2020 losses combined with the pending St.Louis lawsuit could result in the owners pursuing that option.
The NFL OTA media rights are going to be announced sometime in the spring.How much will Bell pay to maintain that relationship? Does Rogers win them?

Wonder if MLarrySE could retain the name Argonauts for a new NFL team ? That would be fantastic !

[Shatto]

The CFL/XFL issue has resulted in a plethora of articles and comments. It was interesting to listen to a XFL roundtable discussion about the collaboration. The general feeling in that discussion, was the CFL is in dire straits and need to be rescued by the XFL owners. There was even the suggestion that maybe the XFL will simply buy the CFL. After all if it is American it has to be bigger and better--right?

One of the more interesting articles was the Ten Dos and Don'ts by Ryan Ballentine. His first Do is player movement between leagues allowing players to play in both CFL and XFL---if their bodies can stand it with out breaking down with injuries. It is an intriguing proposal and the players might well be in favour of such a move.

However, the fundamental question, of what is the primary objective for the CFL, is still unanswered. If, as most are assuming, it is to increase the revenue stream, it raises the question of how that can be accomplished. Some startup Spring leagues in the past actually had to pay to have the games televised. The XFL so far has given their games away just to get their games on tv. Not sure how the CFL imagines there might be some revenue from American tv, under those conditions.

Until we have some transparency from the CFL and a clear statement of the primary purpose behind the discussions (from the CFL perspective), there seems very little to be gained from continued speculations. Personally, I'd like to see more league emphasis on getting the 2021 season off the ground and perhaps more work on attaining a 10th team for Atlantic Canada.

[OV Argo]

The CFL/XFL issue has resulted in a plethora of articles and comments. It was interesting to listen to a XFL roundtable discussion about the collaboration. The general feeling in that discussion, was the CFL is in dire straits and need to be rescued by the XFL owners. There was even the suggestion that maybe the XFL will simply buy the CFL. After all if it is American it has to be bigger and better--right?

One of the more interesting articles was the Ten Dos and Don'ts by Ryan Ballentine. His first Do is player movement between leagues allowing players to play in both CFL and XFL---if their bodies can stand it with out breaking down with injuries. It is an intriguing proposal and the players might well be in favour of such a move.

However, the fundamental question, of what is the primary objective for the CFL, is still unanswered. If, as most are assuming, it is to increase the revenue stream, it raises the question of how that can be accomplished. Some startup Spring leagues in the past actually had to pay to have the games televised. The XFL so far has given their games away just to get their games on tv. Not sure how the CFL imagines there might be some revenue from American tv, under those conditions.

Until we have some transparency from the CFL and a clear statement of the primary purpose behind the discussions (from the CFL perspective), there seems very little to be gained from continued speculations. Personally, I'd like to see more league emphasis on getting the 2021 season off the ground and perhaps more work on attaining a 10th team for Atlantic Canada.

Well, at least this XCFL thing has prompted a lot of discussion and publicity for the CFL - which is a good thing I guess and maybe part of the big plan.

I've been a bit surprised or stunned (ok - not really) at all the discussion trying to rationalise or make excuses for this proposed venture - in the media and amongst CFL "fans" - lots of ideas as to how it could work - 4 downs better with more scoring, all sorts or rule changes to suck-up to American football; and the usual "ratio problem" suspects salivating over the amazing upgrade in talent a new XCFL could feature if those Canadian scrubs on CFL rosters now could be turfed.

Should be some sort of poll to see how many current CFL fans will remain big fans/followers of the new & improved XCFL American football league IF it comes to pass.

[cfl-cis fan]

Well, at least this XCFL thing has prompted a lot of discussion and publicity for the CFL - which is a good thing I guess and maybe part of the big plan.

I've been a bit surprised or stunned (ok - not really) at all the discussion trying to rationalise or make excuses for this proposed venture - in the media and amongst CFL "fans" - lots of ideas as to how it could work - 4 downs better with more scoring, all sorts or rule changes to suck-up to American football; and the usual "ratio problem" suspects salivating over the amazing upgrade in talent a new XCFL could feature if those Canadian scrubs on CFL rosters now could be turfed.

Should be some sort of poll to see how many current CFL fans will remain big fans/followers of the new & improved XCFL American football league IF it comes to pass.

I don't think I will want to watch if there are no Canadians on the roster ..............

[paulwoods13]

Personally, I'd like to see more league emphasis on getting the 2021 season off the ground and perhaps more work on attaining a 10th team for Atlantic Canada.

We'd all love an Atlantic franchise, but as has been the case for the past 40 years, there is no stadium and no evident source of funding to build one. It remains as much of a pipe dream as it was in 1982 when the "Schooners" first hosted a hospitality suite during Grey Cup week.

[Shatto]

Couldn't agree with you more, PW, it will be a herculean task to get an Atlantic franchise but the very fact it has been a wish for at least 40 years, proves it is important. Maybe it wont be easily attainable but that shouldn't prevent it from being a high priority for the league. Perhaps it is a case of "a man's reach should exceed his grasp" If we can put a man on the moon and create a Covid19 vaccine in less than a year, then maybe nothing is impossible. Then again, maybe I'm being an eternal optimist.

[paulwoods13]

Nothing is impossible if there is money to support the endeavour. That's how humanity landed on the moon and developed vaccines in record time. Unfortunately, there is no apparent source of the funding required to get a team into Halifax or Moncton. Maybe an XFL arrangement will change that, but I wouldn't think anyone in either league sees putting a team out east as one of the top priorities. It's too bad because it would be great to have an even number of teams, and a team in a fabulous part of Canada to visit. But the economics just don't work, IMO.

[Mightygoose]

Hard to say what an XFL partnership would do to Halifax. If Redbird owns 100% of the league then I don't see Halifax as something they would push if the political will isn't there.

If it's case where it's centrally owned but investors own a stake to operate in their market similar to MLS, then SSE could buy in and a new business model could convince some naysayers in the province and city to continue once the pandemic is over.

[argolio]

Conspiracy theory:

MLSE and especially Larrry NFL wannabe Tannebaum are still really craving a "Major League" NFL franchise......Can't say this hasn't crossed my mind in the last few days.

My optimistic side says this will be mostly a marketing deal, maybe allowing both leagues to share young, developing players.

My skeptical side says this will be a partial or full merger, and we'll lose some or most of our rules.

My cynical side says this is a long-term play to get an NFL team in Toronto.

[Shatto]

No one has yet been able to outline how this endeavour will financially benefit the CFL, other stating some ambiguous generalities about the XFL having some rich owners. Even their wealthiest aren't quite in the same financial league as MLSE/Rogers/Bell. Rogers alone can afford to cough up 26B to buy Shaw. But, if for arguments sake we accept that Redbird (4B) and The Rock (400m) are rich, why does anyone think they will be willing to donate funds to help the CFL? Unless there is an ulterior motive at work.

This resembles in some ways, the disastrous expansion to the States a few decades ago. We can all remember (if old enough) the great enthusiasm that went with that endeavour. Many so called league experts hailed it as a financial saviour of the league. Instead it turned out to be a terrible failure. Unfortunately, those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. It looks as if there is a chance that we are about to repeat history, if we are not careful.

Perhaps, there are some potential benefits to be explored, such as some form of collaboration in player movement between the leagues but let's not be naïve and go into some type of arrangement that could have severe negative consequences for our league. The CFL may believe it could have something to gain from this endeavour but the league should be fully aware that it also could lose much more that it gains.

[OV Argo]

No one has yet been able to outline how this endeavour will financially benefit the CFL, other stating some ambiguous generalities about the XFL having some rich owners. Even their wealthiest aren't quite in the same financial league as MLSE/Rogers/Bell. Rogers alone can afford to cough up 26B to buy Shaw. But, if for arguments sake we accept that Redbird (4B) and The Rock (400m) are rich, why does anyone think they will be willing to donate funds to help the CFL? Unless there is an ulterior motive at work.

This resembles in some ways, the disastrous expansion to the States a few decades ago. We can all remember (if old enough) the great enthusiasm that went with that endeavour. Many so called league experts hailed it as a financial saviour of the league. Instead it turned out to be a terrible failure. Unfortunately, those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. It looks as if there is a chance that we are about to repeat history, if we are not careful.

Perhaps, there are some potential benefits to be explored, such as some form of collaboration in player movement between the leagues but let's not be naïve and go into some type of arrangement that could have severe negative consequences for our league. The CFL may believe it could have something to gain from this endeavour but the league should be fully aware that it also could lose much more that it gains.


Good post !

Desperate times call for desperate CFL measures - and the current clique of CFL "leaders" may have no clue there; exploring some potential benefits and resource sharing with the XFL or whoever is one thing; selling Canadian football down the river is another.

[paulwoods13]

This resembles in some ways, the disastrous expansion to the States a few decades ago. We can all remember (if old enough) the great enthusiasm that went with that endeavour. Many so called league experts hailed it as a financial saviour of the league. Instead it turned out to be a terrible failure.

It was a failure in many ways, but without it, I doubt the league would still be here. The expansion money was needed desperately. Even after expansion ended, the league was teetering on the brink -- it had to get a sponsor to pay the players on the Eskimos and Argos their Grey Cup bonuses, IIRC. IMO the U.S. "experiment" should be remembered as a big factor in the league continuing to exist.

[carlos]

I can see the ratio going if anything were to come of the discussions but don't fear the demise of Canadian players because of it. The grass roots of football in Canada is not supported by the CFL who focus on Canadians developing in American schools. More ex players given work in coaching would be a start.

Could also see digital currency as the answer to the dollar problem and there might even be interest from Bitcoin or whoever in working with the league on that.

[AngeloV]

I still don't expect there to be a merger between the 2 leagues, but hypothetically, I say keep the ratio rules. For American team make it so that they need to have 20 players (minimum 7 starters) from the State the team plays in to be their non import players. Be it born in the State, or played college ball in the State.

[Shatto]

An excellent suggestion Angelo. Not sure if the XFL would go along with that rule but it would certainly be worth trying to make a the conditions for signing an agreement.

[carlos]

I still don't expect there to be a merger between the 2 leagues, but hypothetically, I say keep the ratio rules. For American team make it so that they need to have 20 players (minimum 7 starters) from the State the team plays in to be their non import players. Be it born in the State, or played college ball in the State.

That's a clever twist and one that would be sure to sell tickets.

[gilthethrill]

That's a clever twist and one that would be sure to sell tickets.

I am pretty sure that “twist” has been tried before in failed US football leagues.

[OV Argo]

I am pretty sure that “twist” has been tried before in failed US football leagues.

I wondered why - way back - what AV is suggesting was not tried by the CFL for their US expansion teams? A regional component to a US team roster like CFL teams have a ratio to make sure Canadian players get some shots.

Makes good sense IMO, but heard that US labour laws would be sticky with law-suits a fear ?

[ArgoZ]

I wondered why - way back - what AV is suggesting was not tried by the CFL for their US expansion teams? A regional component to a US team roster like CFL teams have a ratio to make sure Canadian players get some shots.

Makes good sense IMO, but heard that US labour laws would be sticky with law-suits a fear ?

Problems arise when someone’s residence is on the other side of the street defining boundary. You can’t discriminate and prevent someone’s job opportunity under those conditions. States are so independently controlled, they might be able to do it by State residence or College, and even then, there are many States with more football players than all of Canada. The numbers can be staggering. Look at this graph of college teams per state.


<tbody>
1
Pennsylvania
52


2
Ohio
41


3
Texas
37


4
New York
31


5
North Carolina
31


6
Massachusetts
29


7
Illinois
28


8
Minnesota
25


9
Virginia
24


10
California
22

</tbody>

[carlos]

John Hodge reporting;

"CFL players got 52 per cent of league revenue in 1976. Today, they receive approximately 25 per cent. For comparison, NFL players will receive 48 per cent of league revenue in 2021, while NHL and NBA players get 50 per cent.Taking inflation into account, the CFL’s annual revenue has quadrupled since 1976 and the value of its television contract has increased by 700 per cent. Meanwhile, player costs have only increased by a little over 50 per cent."

Why does the CFL continue to ignore the numbers? The money fans pay to watch the players pay does not make it to the players. More of a collective agreement issue which is coming up soon and does not look good imo.

Is the plan to break the union?

[argos1873]

John Hodge reporting;

"CFL players got 52 per cent of league revenue in 1976. Today, they receive approximately 25 per cent. For comparison, NFL players will receive 48 per cent of league revenue in 2021, while NHL and NBA players get 50 per cent.Taking inflation into account, the CFL’s annual revenue has quadrupled since 1976 and the value of its television contract has increased by 700 per cent. Meanwhile, player costs have only increased by a little over 50 per cent."

Why does the CFL continue to ignore the numbers? The money fans pay to watch the players pay does not make it to the players. More of a collective agreement issue which is coming up soon and does not look good imo.

Is the plan to break the union?




I wonder if its an "economies of scale" issue? For example, CFL teams will still have many of the expenses of the bigger leagues, such as travel, facilities etc (yes I know they don't have as good a travel or facilities available, but you can only go so low), while the revenues are much much lower. Therefore maybe a higher percentage of revenues is required, just to at least have a production that is some what "major league". Just a thought.

[OV Argo]

Anyhow - all this discussion and opinion - in the media and amongst CFL "fans" is continuing to provide the CFL at least some publicity or interest in a time of need.

Fascinating to me to see many all in on this potential new CFL/XFL venture: fawning all over ways to $uck-up to American rules (4 downs, smaller field, 11 men, no rouge, etc.) or a better schedule; and others rubbing their hands with glee in the anticipation of Canadian players getting turfed-out of a new XCFL ?

All for CFL survival and a new "business model" - good luck there.

[dmont]

I'm not usually a big podcast guy, but this was a great episode about the CFL/XFL talks:

https://twitter.com/CFL_Headlines/status/1374593594716213251?s=19

[Stevoman]

I really want more details before I decide how I feel about this but if there were a merger, I would not want to lose the Canadian rules. The U.S. teams could have a smaller field and when they play in Canada they will have to adjust and vice versa. I don't know how I feel about the ratio but I didn't like the way it was handled back in the 90's.

I just want the Argos to have a future but I want it to be in a league that I recognize.

[Shatto]

Some feel strongly there should be some form of collaboration between the CFL and XFL. Here is a suggestion --why not have the XFL as a feeder organization for the CFL. Drop the global experiment and instead guarantee each CFL team will place 2 of the XFL players from the spring schedule on their roster for the same year. It will allow those players to double their income that year and allow them to play in an established league.

Yes---- it is a tongue-in-cheek suggestion but makes as much sense as some of the other collaboration suggestions!

[OV Argo]

Some feel strongly there should be some form of collaboration between the CFL and XFL. Here is a suggestion --why not have the XFL as a feeder organization for the CFL. Drop the global experiment and instead guarantee each CFL team will place 2 of the XFL players from the spring schedule on their roster for the same year. It will allow those players to double their income that year and allow them to play in an established league.

Yes---- it is a tongue-in-cheek suggestion but makes as much sense as some of the other collaboration suggestions!


Makes way more sense to me.

[Mocha]

I think the best type of collaboration would be maintaining two separate leagues playing two separate non-overlapping schedules, but allow players to play in both. They could possibly even have team partnerships, with each CFL team sharing staff and players with one XFL team, though this would be complicated to arrange, given there likely won't be 9 XFL teams to begin with and the league's chances of surviving more than a season or two are probably quite low.

The downside to sharing players is that the CFL would lose some players to injury, but I think that risk would be acceptable to allow players to bolster their income.

The two leagues could co-organize (and share the expenses of) combines and international scouting.

Whatever the CFL decides to do, I hope they have closely studied that history of failure of non-NFL leagues in the US and are prepared with an exit strategy for when this latest attempt also fails.

[AngeloV]

Whatever the CFL decides to do, I hope they have closely studied that history of failure of non-NFL leagues in the US and are prepared with an exit strategy for when this latest attempt also fails.

Bingo.

I am still holding out hope that the league is only doing this as a publicity stunt and saner heads prevail. If there is a merger, the CFL better reserve the right to pull out at any time.

[Mocha]

In Naylor's TSN piece this morning, he quotes the Rock: "We'll figure out a smart season that'll create phenomenal opportunities for players and be the best experience for fans," he wrote. " I played ball for years and wrestled 280+ nights a year (for years) so I know the value in smart scheduling and recovery."

This sounds to me like they could be arranging a schedule in which players could play a spring season in the XFL and then a summer/fall season in the CFL. All this talk about the CFL changing its rules or playing in the spring might be premature.

[Skinny G]

Conspiracy theory:

MLSE and especially Larrry NFL wannabe Tannebaum are still really craving a "Major League" NFL franchise and to rid themselves of the dinky little not "world class" CFL (that is losing so much money per year, in about 15 years it could pay for one of the Jay's player salary).

SO - they pretend the CFL needs a saviour/ quick fix and The Rock & co. have already reached out to explore sharing or merger or whatever. Now The Rock is not part of this conspiracy, he's just a "dupe" or "patsy" (as Lee Harvey Oswald called himself before he got shot) - actually likes the CFL and thinks a partnership would work (as long as the CFL gets rid of those quaint little Canadian rules and unfair ratio); but MLSE and Larry see this partnership failing (as all minor pro US leagues always do), but in the meantime, the XFL dupes pony up some ca$h for the CFL to help with some debt there; and MLarrySE know full well that this venture could anger the NFL - who don't like competition for dollars or players - but who previously held off on NFL expansion to Toronto for some respect for the CFL and for it to provide some sort of "buffer" or anti-trust lawsuit protection. Now the gloves are off though, and the XCFL crashes in no time, and even if it doesn't, the NFL is fast making plans for an expansion team in the huge Toronto market - with Larry at the helm.

A soon to be Hollywood production: movie script - to be written by B. McNall, and movie directed by Oliver Stone.

Toronto Argonauts - wrecked in a sea of red ink and sink never to be seen again; but hey, that's what happens when your ship's (business) model is unsound; and change and progress are a good thing.

;o)

Looks like you're probably right... have a listen to the Sekeres and Price show starting at 27:30 - Matt Sekeres calls out Naylor and Lalji (and TSN) for their half-assed reporting. TSN actually also prevented Lalji from going on this show to address it.

https://twitter.com/sekeresandprice/status/1377071211771953154?s=20

[Will]

Is it just me or are there some out there trying to push the narrative that it is MLSE and MLSE alone pushing for this collaboration?

Fits into the "let's bash Toronto" narrative.

[Argo57]

Is it just me or are there some out there trying to push the narrative that it is MLSE and MLSE alone pushing for this collaboration?

Fits into the "let's bash Toronto" narrative.

You are correct.
It’s all MLSE’s fault.
Those evil Toronto corporate thugs leading the other 8 sweet innocent owners down the path to oblivion.
I would much prefer the league remain Canadian but realize the current situation is broken.
No doubt MLSE is involved but I suspect many other owners are in lockstep in regards to these talks, you can only bleed money for so long.

[OV Argo]

Is it just me or are there some out there trying to push the narrative that it is MLSE and MLSE alone pushing for this collaboration?

Fits into the "let's bash Toronto" narrative.


Yes, seems that way with some.

Just like some are pushing the narrative that the CFL is totally broke/ bankrupt with a broken "business model" and the only hope/solution is to $uck-up to American football.

[Mightygoose]

Is it just me or are there some out there trying to push the narrative that it is MLSE and MLSE alone pushing for this collaboration?

Fits into the "let's bash Toronto" narrative.

In Naylor's article on Friday he said MLSE is the most bullish on the partnership

https://www.tsn.ca/dave-naylor-status-quo-may-be-the-most-treacherous-road-for-cfl-1.1616719

This does make sense since MLSE chairs the board under Dale Lastman, but the other teams are on board with talking to Redbird, but yes the anti-Toronto narrative is out there. Why would the others not consider the view of their largest market when looking for a new business model?

[Skinny G]

Yes, seems that way with some.

Just like some are pushing the narrative that the CFL is totally broke/ bankrupt with a broken "business model" and the only hope/solution is to $uck-up to American football.

John Hodge put together a decent article around the "business model being broken" and that this is do or die for the league...

https://3downnation.com/2021/03/21/the-cfls-business-model-isnt-broken-its-leadership-has-failed/

[OV Argo]

John Hodge put together a decent article around the "business model being broken" and that this is do or die for the league...

https://3downnation.com/2021/03/21/the-cfls-business-model-isnt-broken-its-leadership-has-failed/

That's just absurd!

Hodge would be considered a whack-0 by the CFL must, just must, sell-out & $uck-up to an American football venture in order to "survive" and have a better "business model" crowd.

Can't wait for the groovy new XCFL sched. featuring Saskatchewan vs. Scranton; silly, quaint Canadian rules turfed; and the huge influx/upgrade in "talent" with that unfair, nuisance ratio gone and Canadian scrubs purged from rosters. ;o)

[Skinny G]

That's just absurd!

Hodge would be considered a whack-0 by the CFL must, just must, sell-out & $uck-up to an American football venture in order to "survive" and have a better "business model" crowd.

Can't wait for the groovy new XCFL sched. featuring Saskatchewan vs. Scranton; silly, quaint Canadian rules turfed; and the huge influx/upgrade in "talent" with that unfair, nuisance ratio gone and Canadian scrubs purged from rosters. ;o)

He's been one of the few that says the CFL doesn't need to sell out to the XFL/American football to be able to be successful, which I'm happy someone is at least saying.

Glad he's calling out that the league should be looking at themselves first to leverage what is working, and focus on aspects that need to be improved, and that the numbers the league had as a whole were not as bad as it's being made to seem, though we know it's not perfect.

[Skinny G]

Just putting this out there because there is a huge lack of information in regards to some aspects of the CFL/XFL talks, as well as adding some additional thoughts.

TV Revenue
XFL wasn’t receiving any revenue in their last deal with McMahon (who already has connections with networks), yet all of a sudden NOW networks are just going to throw money to this XFL ownership group? This is going to be the big TV deal we’re going to get?

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2019/05/07/xfl-espn-fox-abc-fs1-tv-rights-television-rights-broadcast/

TV Ratings
Also, though the average XFL Ratings were ok, they were trending downward, down 62.5% from Week 1 to Week 5 before they closed, and that was before they went against NCAA March Madness, NBA/NHL Playoffs, MLS and MLB. Yet, everyone is bragging about the XFL TV ratings?

https://xflboard.com/xfl-television-ratings/

XFL Group Worth
Keeps getting thrown out there that Redbird is worth $4 Billion, but to be clear that’s the assets they manage. Also, the investment into the Fenway Group was not their own money, but they needed numerous investors to complete that purchase. They can’t take any of the asset money and invest it in the XFL without approvals from investors, some of which are Ontario Teachers Pension Plan, Jerry Jones, and George Steinbrenner.
In terms of actual worth of the key players:

Gerry Cardinale - $1 Billion US
Dwayne Johnson - $420 Million US
Dany Garcia - $20 Million US
1/3

[Skinny G]

Digital/Gaming
CFL Football Frenzy – Good start with this, but as with all things from the CFL/Ambrosie, it was left to die. There was a lot of steam – over 500,000 downloads, and Ambrosie decided he didn’t want to support Maximum Football because he wanted to push this. Then they stopped supporting it, with no updates since July 2019. Ricky Ray and Duron Carter are on the Argos roster in the game still right now.

Maximum Football – Don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but you have a company that wants to work with the league, has the most well known CFL player to play the game as the face of the game, but where is Ambrosie/the league? No where…A little bit of support would go a long way for Canuck Play and the CFL.

Add in here the continued growth of eSports and how that could play a part of bringing in additional fans.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/technology/video/behind-canada-s-growing-esports-industry~943212

https://www.cbj.ca/esports-is-one-of-canadas-biggest-business-opportunities-of-2019/


Plus the fact there is a brand new eSports arena being built in Toronto on CNE grounds

https://dailyhive.com/toronto/overactive-media-esports-entertainment-complex-cne-grounds

MLSE Digital Arena – Saw that MLSE has created an app to allow fans to watch games and get a feel for the game through this new digital app. It says BMO field for the Argos and TFC is coming later, but this could be huge… and look… we didn’t need to sell out the league to find a way to generate revenue and engage a younger audience.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-mlse-launches-new-digital-arena-for-raptors-and-leafs-fans/

2/3

[Skinny G]

Revenue/Cost Sharing Model with Centralization
The league may have looked at this, but the question is why has there been no change/updates? No updates on revenue/cost sharing? No talk about streamlining/centralizing league wide costs, or even working together with Football Canada on shared initiatives such as branding and marketing, among other things for now and in the future. People are relying on the XFL talks to save the league, but if the league focused on themselves first, they would be in a better position to start.

https://medicinehatnews.com/sports/local-sports/2020/08/22/inside-the-cfl-league-has-nine-months-to-reinvent-itself/

Planning
Over the last year, there doesn’t look like there was much focus on planning for 2021 season and beyond for the league itself. Beyond the points mentioned above, why is it that the plans are only 95% done NOW? What have they been doing? There should already be various completed plans depending on various scenarios. This is crazy. Understanding that some aspects have to be team (and province/city) specific, but what have the league/teams been doing that their not organized and ready to go by now for the 2021 season?

https://3downnation.com/2021/03/27/winnipegs-plan-to-host-fans-for-2021-cfl-season-is-95-per-cent-complete/


Gambling – Regarding Bill C-218
Still to date, the league has not had any direct representation at any of the committee meetings. Jim Lawson was there for the Woodbine Entertainment Group, and the NHL sent representatives at the last committee meeting. But knowing how big this is for the CFL, where are they? Is Ambrosie not there since they got shut down for the grant (even though he was extremely unprepared)? The fact that MPs are calling out that this will be a huge benefit for the CFL, yet the league decides not to be present at any meetings makes them look like unprofessional.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fBiLA4xqbI

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fBiLA4xqbI)https://openparliament.ca/committees/activities/6667/

3/3

[OV Argo]

Thanks for all the interesting info there Skinny.

So many roads ...

[Mocha]

Revenue/Cost Sharing Model with Centralization
The league may have looked at this, but the question is why has there been no change/updates? No updates on revenue/cost sharing? No talk about streamlining/centralizing league wide costs, or even working together with Football Canada on shared initiatives such as branding and marketing, among other things for now and in the future. People are relying on the XFL talks to save the league, but if the league focused on themselves first, they would be in a better position to start.

A lot of great points here. With the CFL business model, I wonder where the league would be today (or would have been in 2019, pre Covid anyway) if they'd started a football ops cap and GC revenue sharing in, say, 2010. I think a lot what ended up losing money in Montreal and elsewhere was overspending on Ops (which contributed to underspending on proper marketing).

If the CFL and XFL do form some sort of working relationship, I hope it's mostly related to consolidating and reducing costs. For example, let players play in the spring for the XFL and summer-fall in the CFL and the two leagues can then share the salary of the player. Of course, any player playing both seasons should earn more than for just one or the other, but there should be room for reducing what each league has to play.

I think they could also share scouts and position/assistant coaches, hold joint combines to reduce costs, etc.

Plus, having players in both leagues will increase exposure for the two leagues. I can't imagine, for example, Rod Black calling a game and NOT mention a hundred times that Player X also suits up for the St. Louis XFL team during the spring. Hopefully, the XFL's Rod Black equivalent would be doing the same, and more Americans would start to follow the CFL.

I really believe (or maybe just hope?) all this focus on the two leagues merging and eschewing traditional Canadian rules and scheduling is misguided. I think it makes the most sense for both leagues to continue separate, non-overlapping seasons given the XFL doesn't want to compete with NFL and NCAA in the fall and the CFL doesn't want to compete with NHL playoffs and crappy weather in the spring.

[Skinny G]

A lot of great points here. With the CFL business model, I wonder where the league would be today (or would have been in 2019, pre Covid anyway) if they'd started a football ops cap and GC revenue sharing in, say, 2010. I think a lot what ended up losing money in Montreal and elsewhere was overspending on Ops (which contributed to underspending on proper marketing).

If the CFL and XFL do form some sort of working relationship, I hope it's mostly related to consolidating and reducing costs. For example, let players play in the spring for the XFL and summer-fall in the CFL and the two leagues can then share the salary of the player. Of course, any player playing both seasons should earn more than for just one or the other, but there should be room for reducing what each league has to play.



Agree - I think they should look at partnering for sure! Think it would be beneficial for both. Throw in All Star/Pro Bowl type game where it's the top All Stars from each league so you can promote both together, that would be cool!

Basically the CFL can survive (and has) on it's own, so we don't NEED the XFL to survive, but the CFL does need to improve. Both leagues should look at the opportunities to work together and create a relationship, which all can be done without giving up the league and the Canadian game.

And let's understand something, the XFL is not a functioning league right now...at this point in time it is nothing but a trademarked name.

[Shatto]

Excellent points made by Skinny. Hopefully, he doesn't mind but I'd like the reiterate the point about the TV revenue. No spring league has ever received revenue from TV and some have actually had to pay for TV exposure. IMO with or without the CFL, this is not likely to change.

[jerrym]

I don't often agree with Arash Madani, but on his belief that joining with the XFL would be a disaster, I do.



Often bemoaned for his negativity among CFL circles, Arash Madani rose to the defence of the troubled league during a recent episode of the XFL Markcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVGEpvy2VVg), spending nearly an hour dismantling every aspect of the XFL proposal in brutally honest fashion. ...

“Pro football leagues do not work. There have only been two that have worked, the NFL — which is a behemoth, forget it, don’t even compare anything with the NFL — and the CFL. Every other league be it the Alliance of American Football, the World League of American Football, Arena Football 2, Arena Football, be it the XFL twice, they have all failed and there’s a reason for that,” he began his tear down of the twice-failed XFL.

Much has been made of the CFL’s failing business model since the two leagues have agreed to work together (https://3downnation.com/2021/03/10/cfl-to-explore-alignment-opportunities-with-xfl-owners/) to identify opportunities for both to innovate and grow the game of football. Madani doesn’t buy it. “It’s not just that the CFL’s business model doesn’t work, [alternative football] just doesn’t work at all. People do not have interest in anything outside of major college football and the NFL in the United States,” he continued. “Nothing we have seen in history, from the USFL that had real stars to leagues that have had major money backing them to network supporting and investing in them, it has not succeeded.” ...

“You have no football people. You have no helmets. You have nothing. You have nothing but a name. That’s all the XFL is right now. It’s a name,” Madani insisted. “There is nothing there other than moldy uniforms and expired helmets and shoulder pads.”




The glitz and glamour of The Rock and RedBird Capital’s $4 billion are great, but none of that is a guarantee of sustainability. ...

“They’re looking for the Hail Mary all the time. ‘Wait until we get out of the baseball stadium in Toronto — we’re going to move outdoors, we’re going to have tailgating, it’s all going to be fixed. Wait until Johnny Manziel shows up, then all our problems are solved and he’s going to sell a million tickets. We’re going to bring Ricky Williams to Toronto and he’s going to take the city by storm,'” Madani illustrated. “Nothing is a quick fix. I understand The Rock has a lot of money and I understand RedBird has got a lot of money. They have no idea how to run a pro football league.”

The solution, according to Madani, must remain a roll-up-your-sleeves hard work approach that the CFL has failed at time and again due to a lack of vision. “Here’s what you do: you actually have some leadership. Some people who put together an idea and a plan,” he explained. “The CFL has been poorly run forever. It’s been poorly run at the league side and at the team side, all over the place.”

While the CFL has failed to market or engage growing grassroots areas of engagement like flag football, the league has suffered. Partnering with a failed enterprise is no substitute for those activities.

“Selling your soul to go down the river with something that is not established whatsoever for a product that can very easily get forgotten about in the sports landscape is a major mistake,” Madani emphasized.

https://3downnation.com/2021/04/09/there-is-nothing-there-other-than-moldy-uniforms-and-expired-helmets-unlikely-cfl-hero-arash-madani-issues-passionate-rebuke-of-xfl-merger-talks/

[Argo57]

I don't often agree with Arash Madani, but on his belief that joining with the XFL would be a disaster, I do.

https://3downnation.com/2021/04/09/there-is-nothing-there-other-than-moldy-uniforms-and-expired-helmets-unlikely-cfl-hero-arash-madani-issues-passionate-rebuke-of-xfl-merger-talks/

I understand the CFL’s business model is probably broken but this whole thing has really bummed me out, I love this league and our game (as it is).
Can’t help but have the sickening thought that Ambrosie and the gang are going to sell a large piece of Canadian tradition down the river.
Love the fact that this game is unique, Canadian and downright special to most of us.
Always loved spending time at Argonaut games with my dad and would hate to think that this could disappear.

[OV Argo]

I understand the CFL’s business model is probably broken but this whole thing has really bummed me out, I love this league and our game (as it is).
Can’t help but have the sickening thought that Ambrosie and the gang are going to sell a large piece of Canadian tradition down the river.
Love the fact that this game is unique, Canadian and downright special to most of us.
Always loved spending time at Argonaut games with my dad and would hate to think that this could disappear.


Agreed 57 - would be a shame to lose the CFL we grew-up on and have followed for so long.

Sad thing is - this news of a possible XFL partnership is around 2 weeks old now and Ambrosie and the CFL have not been able to come out and make a clear statement or declaration to it's fans and supporters. They could just say - "we're broke and finished as is, so we will do anything including selling-out to become American football like"; OR declare that Canadian football rules and Canadian player content are sacred to our business/sport/league and any collaboration with the XFL or whoever, will see the Canadian game preserved. Too much to ask I guess; and we should just shut-up and put-up with whatever the new "business model" deems is best. Just a business like any other and none of joe average fan's business what they do ?

[Shatto]

A unnamed politician once said, in order to make changes that people would never buy, you need to have a disaster and use that disaster (even if you have to create it) to justify doing what we always wanted to do in the first place. The pandemic and the "supposed" annual loses are being used to justify change that would never be accepted in normal times.

Yes, the business model needs to be improved upon. Sensible solutions like gate revenue sharing are not being contemplated but rather illogical schemes, like merging with an American spring league that has no chance of TV revenue and is highly unlikely to exist after a year or so, are being considered.

As Jerrym has mentioned, Madani has outlined why merging or even collaborating with the XFL will be a disaster. Desperate times may demand desperate measures but not foolish ones.

[Skinny G]

Growing Football in Canada

That’s what Ambrosie says has to be done right? “"Everyone wants to see football in Canada grow and be stronger. If we can harness that energy, then this is going to be a very positive experience for us." – is what he said in this last call regarding the XFL talk.

Well, why isn’t he/the league working with Football Canada? We went in to take a look at what Football Canada has been developing and found some interesting things:

They created a football coaching app to be shared with all amateur football coaches - https://www.footballcanadamobile.com/
It was created in collaboration with all provincial football associations in Canada, except Quebec
The collaboration with the provincial football associations totally makes sense, but I think there is a league that’s missing here…

Looking further, we noticed that Football Canada has another partner specifically around football education… USA Football!

In addition to all this, also found out that Ontario Football worked with Players Health to provide their injury tracking app to use too! - http://ontariofootball.ca/news.php?news_id=1919221

You would think with how important it is to grow the game, the league would be involved with these associations as key partners, to be able to cross market, as well as promote the league.

For the Football Canada Coaching App, imagine if you could have CFL players doing the walk throughs? Arbuckle doing QB drills, Brescasin doing WR drills, Campbell doing OLine drills, etc. It’s all added visibility.

Also, look at all the leagues/teams Football Canada helps/supports/leads – U18, U19, Junior National, Sr Women’s, Sr. Mens, Women’s Flag Football, Men’s Flag Football (http://footballcanada.com/ ). Beyond each of these respective teams, Football Canada also manages Flag Football leagues across the country - http://cffl.footballcanada.com/find-league/

This is where the CFL needs to be! Jim Mullin and his team have basically done all the work for league… but Ambrosie is too busy being useless to see that all of this is there for the league. Plus it shouldn’t be done individually team by team. We saw in 2019 that the Argos started to get involved in supporting and being around youth and flag football (which was great to see), but it should be league driven, and it’s not going to just happen overnight.

[carlos]

Nice step in the right direction for Canadian football with Calvin McCarty being hired as a high school coach in Edmonton. I expect he will do well and won't be surprised to see a graduate of his program become a future player five years or so down the road.

[Skinny G]

Looks like the CFL has asked for a new loan from the Federal Government...they are currently in negotiations. I hope they were watching the Air Canada deal and how much transparency/accountability the Feds put on Air Canada, even getting a stake in the company. They also are forcing AC to have a sustainable business plan.

It would be great if the Government forced all of these same requests onto the CFL, and then maybe they would get their act together. Also, would like to be a fly on the wall when the Feds ask "So, about this XFL thing, how many Canadians will be impacted?"

https://www.tsn.ca/cfl-continuing-talks-with-federal-government-about-return-to-field-in-21-1.1622252

[OV Argo]

Looks like the CFL has asked for a new loan from the Federal Government...they are currently in negotiations. I hope they were watching the Air Canada deal and how much transparency/accountability the Feds put on Air Canada, even getting a stake in the company. They also are forcing AC to have a sustainable business plan.

It would be great if the Government forced all of these same requests onto the CFL, and then maybe they would get their act together. Also, would like to be a fly on the wall when the Feds ask "So, about this XFL thing, how many Canadians will be impacted?"

https://www.tsn.ca/cfl-continuing-talks-with-federal-government-about-return-to-field-in-21-1.1622252


It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall there.

Some Fed / MP might want to ask the CFL "leadership" some tough questions: "so, you say you're a Canadian "business" and "cultural" institution that needs some help? ; funny though how you've purposely evolved to be an enterprise that employs more Americans than Canadians in key jobs (coaching staffs; player roster; highest paid job reserved for Americans only) " ; are you going to ask the US government for some assistance too ? are you going to change a whole bunch of your cultural tradition to become even more American like ?

[Shatto]

The last time Ambrosie completely bungled the appeal for federal funds. He did not connect with sympathetic politicians, who could have guided and paved the way to a more effective submission and he completely underestimated the significance that the absence of player reps had on the MP's Hopefully, he will be better prepared in addressing those failings of last year.

The uniqueness of the CFL in Canadian sports, is a great potential selling point but as Skinny and OV correctly points out, the question of the negative effect of any type of merger with the XFL could undermine the Canadian players interests. This certainly will not help in the negotiations for financial support from the feds.

[Argo57]

I have obtained the training video that the CFL provided Ambrosie for his ill fated plea for financial assistance a few months ago.
Not sure why it didn’t go as planned.

https://youtu.be/lc01Uw8PcfU

[OV Argo]

Sure is a ton of coverage and hype for Global prospects over on the CFL site; makes me think of Ambrosie's big plan as maybe part of a deal to sell-out the CFL/ Canadian football and be open to a new XCFL - welcoming the Global community into part of a new football vision (they only know American football in other parts of the world - no clue about Canadian football).

[Wobbler]

Considering that the draft is happening in two days, the coverage on CFL.ca is pretty light.

[AngeloV]

Considering that the draft is happening in two days, the coverage on CFL.ca is pretty light.

Probably due to layoffs.

[OV Argo]

Considering that the draft is happening in two days, the coverage on CFL.ca is pretty light.

You mean the CFL Global Draft is in 2 days ?

Like I said above - there has been tons of coverage on CFL.ca on some of these Global prospects and how cool it would be to see them in the CFL.

Too bad some to do with the CFL didn't care as much about Canadian talent.

[Mocha]

I wonder if something like this could work:

XFL plays their 10 game schedule Feb through April. And the CFL would play its 18-game schedule June through November. The XFL teams would all be owned by (or somehow closely affiliated with) CFL teams. That way, players, coaches, scouts, etc. could be employed more of the year for, hopefully, only a relatively small increase in salary.

The teams would be:
Montreal Alouettes (play indoors at the Big O)
BC Lions (play indoors at BC Place)
St. Louis Battlehawks (Winnipeg Blue Bombers)
LA/San Diego Wildcats (Hamilton Tiger-Cats)
Houston Roughnecks (Calgary Stampeders)
Dallas Renegades (Edmonton Eskimos)
DC Defenders (Ottawa Redblacks)
NY Guardians (Toronto Argonauts)
Seattle Sea Dragons (Saskatchewan Roughriders)
TB or some other more viable market (Atlantic Schooners)??

Maybe it'd be possible to give Toronto an XFL team if they play all their February games on the road? Then, perhaps affiliate NY with the Schooners onwership and leave TB out.

This would allow CFL fans to follow their teams during XFL season and hopefully attract more US viewers to follow their city's teams during the CFL season. Both leagues could keep their schedule and rules intact (though I'd like to see the XFL adopt unlimited motion and the rouge) and lower the costs of running each franchise.

[Skinny G]

Feds and CFL in talks for potential support this year

https://leaderpost.com/news/saskatchewan/feds-cfl-in-talks-for-potential-support-this-year-carr

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Like everyone else on this forum I love the CFL and I've supported in for damn near 60 years. That being said I don't want to give these guys a single tax dollar until Randy comes clean with EXACTLY what these XFL discussions are all about. So far it has been nothing but speculation by people not in the discussions. It's time to fess up Randy before you go hat in hand to the governemnt for help.

[Argo57]

Like everyone else on this forum I love the CFL and I've supported in for damn near 60 years. That being said I don't want to give these guys a single tax dollar until Randy comes clean with EXACTLY what these XFL discussions are all about. So far it has been nothing but speculation by people not in the discussions. It's time to fess up Randy before you go hat in hand to the governemnt for help.

Zero chance this happens, Randy and the gang apparently have difficulty keeping the CFLPA in the loop.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Randy Ambrosie has become a major disaapointment to me and an obstacle to success. It is time for him to go. It's a mystery to me how he is able to sell these lamebrain ideas of his to the Board of Governors and keep his job. The most disappointing aspect of his tenure, and there are many is his relationship with PA. As a former player he should know better.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Randy Ambrosie has become a major disaapointment to me and an obstacle to success. It is time for him to go. It's a mystery to me how he is able to sell these lamebrain ideas of his to the Board of Governors and keep his job. The most disappointing aspect of his tenure, and there are many is his relationship with PA. As a former player he should know better.
Larry and Bell are happy.They will get what they desire in the end.
What the customers want is of little concern.

[Argo57]

Randy Ambrosie has become a major disaapointment to me and an obstacle to success. It is time for him to go. It's a mystery to me how he is able to sell these lamebrain ideas of his to the Board of Governors and keep his job. The most disappointing aspect of his tenure, and there are many is his relationship with PA. As a former player he should know better.

I pretty much agree, I have no use for Ambrosie.
You would think as a former player he would realize the need to treat the CFLPA as partners and collaborate to make the game better, instead he treats the players like an inconvenience (at best).
Should have been shown the door by now IMO.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Argo57, I think that is the first time anyone has ever agreed with something that I've said on this forum. I'm going to go have a slice of pie to celebrate.

[OV Argo]

Randy Ambrosie has become a major disaapointment to me and an obstacle to success. It is time for him to go. It's a mystery to me how he is able to sell these lamebrain ideas of his to the Board of Governors and keep his job. The most disappointing aspect of his tenure, and there are many is his relationship with PA. As a former player he should know better.

Agreed; but he is just a puppet of the BOG/GOB club; too bad he is a gut-less clown.

[Shatto]

One has to wonder if Ambrosie's strategy isn't to eliminate the Canadian ratio and then move the game to an NFL 4 down model? That would fit with his grandiose vision of a global football composition.

[AngeloV]

Agreed; but he is just a puppet of the BOG/GOB club; too bad he is a gut-less clown.

Is he really a puppet? Or are these actually his ideas that he pitches to the BOG and they like what they hear? I don't think the BOG really initiates any ideas, but if sold to them they buy them.

[Mocha]

I imagine it would be a bit of both. I think the global initiative was probably part of his pitch to get hired in the first place.

The XFL collaboration is something that just arose due to covid. I bet there's been plenty of brainstorming among the BOG as to what such collaboration could/should entail.

[Argo57]

Argo57, I think that is the first time anyone has ever agreed with something that I've said on this forum. I'm going to go have a slice of pie to celebrate.

You’re not all that bad👍
Any excuse is a good excuse for a slice of pie....enjoy!

[primetime31]

One thing that I can't understand is the notion that American rules must be used in the US. Numerous spring leagues have failed there. Why not try 3 downs with some amended rules to accommodate the smaller fields such as 9 or 10 players per side, maybe a 3 yard no-yard radius. If you maintain American rules then all you will have is a developmental league for the NFL. What long term market will there be for that?

[AngeloV]

One thing that I can't understand is the notion that American rules must be used in the US. Numerous spring leagues have failed there. Why not try 3 downs with some amended rules to accommodate the smaller fields such as 9 or 10 players per side, maybe a 3 yard no-yard radius. If you maintain American rules then all you will have is a developmental league for the NFL. What long term market will there be for that?

To me, any thought of playing a season in Canada (regardless of rules) from April-August or September is a non starter. Half the season would be played during NHL playoffs. People complain about the lack of media coverage as it is now, wait to see how little coverage they would get if this ever happened. Anyone can say what they want about the business of the CFL, but this would surely kill the league IMO. It's a pipedream to believe that a deal with the XFL would bring in any significant TV money. Start the season in April, and you lose even more on ticket revenue in this country.

Stupidity at it's finest.

[primetime31]

To me, any thought of playing a season in Canada (regardless of rules) from April-August or September is a non starter. Half the season would be played during NHL playoffs. People complain about the lack of media coverage as it is now, wait to see how little coverage they would get if this ever happened. Anyone can say what they want about the business of the CFL, but this would surely kill the league IMO. It's a pipedream to believe that a deal with the XFL would bring in any significant TV money. Start the season in April, and you lose even more on ticket revenue in this country.

Stupidity at it's finest.

Have to agree with you on this one. Delaying the start of the season until june would be imperative for any long term success.

[Mocha]

To me, any thought of playing a season in Canada (regardless of rules) from April-August or September is a non starter. Half the season would be played during NHL playoffs. People complain about the lack of media coverage as it is now, wait to see how little coverage they would get if this ever happened. Anyone can say what they want about the business of the CFL, but this would surely kill the league IMO. It's a pipedream to believe that a deal with the XFL would bring in any significant TV money. Start the season in April, and you lose even more on ticket revenue in this country.

Stupidity at it's finest.

Agreed 100%

I'm guessing more and more that any "merger" type situation would see the XFL become, in essence, a CFL spring league.

Maybe it would simply be allowing the CFL players, coaches, trainers, etc. to work in the XFL in spring and the CFL in summer/fall, which would get at least a few more Americans interested in following their hometown XFL players in Canada.

Maybe it would entail CFL teams actually owning XFL teams too, so that fans in both countries could watch their teams play for a few months in the spring in the US and then several months in summer-fall in Canada.

In any case, I can't see how the two leagues could make any sort of inter-locking schedule work.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

but this would surely kill the league IMO.

That is the entire point of this exercise.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

What long term market will there be for that?
There is no long term market for that outcome.

[AngeloV]

That is the entire point of this exercise.

Yeah ok. Enough with conspiracies, please.

[Skinny G]

Find it interesting that there has be no comment from the league whatsoever in response to the joint policy letter that was sent to Ambrosie and the league, by the USports, CJFL, Canadian Football Officials Association, and Football Canada.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/cfl/article/canadian-football-organizations-want-cfl-keep-traditional-components/

He keeps talking about the fact they need to grow grass roots, and that will be a big part of where the league is going, yet you’re seeing no communication with these groups and zero recognition of how a merger/rule changes/ratio changes would all impact the grass roots programs. Also, as Jim Mullin said, in the below tweet this will just provide reasons for Universities to cancel football programs. Ambrosie must clueless if he can’t see the trickle down effect.

https://twitter.com/cfl_reddit/status/1387387079110373379?s=20

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[Skinny G]

You look at what Football Canada/Ontario Football Alliance is doing with the Ontario Football Mega Clinic. The CFL and the Argos (and even the Ticats and Redblacks) should be at this event. Ambrosie keeps using that same fake story when talking about the lost generation, but where is he/the league when these events are happening?

http://ontariofootball.ca/page.php?page_id=124753

http://ontariofootball.ca/news.php?news_id=1925608

Even Damon Allen basically called out Ambrosie and the League while on Smith & Jones show, asking Ambrosie on an Alumni call “who is the governing body of football being played in Canada?”… he probably got some useless answer I’m sure. Here is the full interview, but he talks about the fact that CFL needs to be driving that all leagues/provinces should be playing 3-down football in Canada to help grow it and ensure this as a part of a viable future, and when he keeps talking about a lost generation, this has a huge part to play in it. (14:00 mark)

https://www.sportsnet.ca/590/smith-and-jones/damon-allen-coaching-cfls-reworked-schedule-xfl/

Also, I’ll just add here as well, that Football Canada/OFA just posted that they are applying on behalf of member teams to get grants that are being offered by the Ontario Government to ensure existing programs can continue.

http://ontariofootball.ca/news.php?news_id=1925903


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[AngeloV]

Thanks for posting Skinny G. Well done as always.

[Skinny G]

Thanks for posting Skinny G. Well done as always.

Thanks Angelo, sorry we've been a bit MIA the last little while. Just catching up on things, and putting together some more information to share with everyone.

[Skinny G]

There has been a lot of talk about this XFL group being able to get a large TV deal (rumours of $100+ Million a year), however, if you look back at the XFL deal, they weren't making any money (we couldn't find details on the AAF deal). So why all of sudden are networks going to throw around a huge TV contract?

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2019/05/07/xfl-espn-fox-abc-fs1-tv-rights-television-rights-broadcast/

Also, took a look at some of the college football TV deals for comparison - Mountain West (12 Teams) is $270M for 6 Years, Mid American Conference is $130M for 13 years from a comparison standpoint. NCAA is a much bigger sell, so not sure how it’s being assumed that an XFL/CFL deal would somehow get in this same range?

https://www.9news.com/article/sports/college/mountain-west-inks-270m-tv-deal-with-fox-cbs-sports/73-f3f71c99-787d-4073-9a57-134bdfea02fe

(https://www.9news.com/article/sports/college/mountain-west-inks-270m-tv-deal-with-fox-cbs-sports/73-f3f71c99-787d-4073-9a57-134bdfea02fe)
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2019/03/20/ap-source-american-athletic-makes-12-year-tv-deal-with-espn/39229011/
(https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2019/03/20/ap-source-american-athletic-makes-12-year-tv-deal-with-espn/39229011/)
Current

NFL – Approximately 9.8 Billion US a Year

CBS - $2.1 Billion, NBC - $2 Billion, Fox - $2 Billion, ESPN/ABC - $2.7B, Amazon $1B

NHL – Approximately $625 Million US a Year

$400 Million ESPN/ABC, $225 Million TNT


Upcoming

NBA – 2025

Estimates have that deal around $7 to $8 Billion US a Year

MLS – 2023

Currently receiving $90 Million US a Year
Looking for significantly more in new deal

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[Skinny G]

MLS TV DEAL

We also found that MLS is struggling financially even with a TV deal that’s worth $600 Million over 6 years, and they are looking for a larger one. But it seems one of the bumps they are running into, which would also be the case with XFL is getting a national audience. But the one aspect that MLS has is that though they do not generate much TV viewership, they have 27 teams (with plans to get to 30 within the next couple years) and 34 games per team per season. Still, even with all that looks like they are hoping (and needing) a large new TV deal as well to help keep their league going and to try to make it profitable.

https://mlsmultiplex.com/2020/06/02/mls-looming-2023-tv-deal-vital-league-survival/


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/27/major-league-soccer-has-a-25-year-plan-but-it-needs-to-secure-huge-media-deals-first.html


Not to mention, that ESPN has been cutting costs and NBC actually is closing their NBC Sports Network. Though they have signed big TV deals, there is cost cutting happening.

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/nbc-sports-network-shutting-down-usa-network-peacock-pete-bevacqua#:~:text=US%20media%20giant%20NBCUniversal %20is,channel%20and%20Peacock%20streaming%20servic e.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/05/sports/espn-layoffs.html


YES NETWORK


It keeps getting thrown out that Redbird is a part owner of the YES Network (and they are), but they own 13%. YES is a regional network, whose main teams are the Yankees, Brooklyn Nets, NYCFC, and NY Liberty. Having a regional TV partner probably won’t generate much revenue, plus realistically, if the leagues merged, are the Yankees going to choose to show XFL games over their other teams?



FOX & TSL

This may or may not have an impact but Fox agreed to a multi year deal with The Spring League as their main broadcast partner, along with having the option to purchase a stake in the league itself. Does that impact Fox’s consideration to put in the money on a TV deal for the XFL or CFL/XFL?

https://www.foxsports.com/presspass/latest-news/2020/10/02/fox-sports-adds-spring-league-extensive-football-programming-lineup

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[Mocha]

Perhaps the YES network would carry XFL/CFL games in addition to their larger properties? That could throw a wrench in the works when it comes to scheduling.

The Fox deal with TSL could possibly be used as a model for how a broadcast deal with the XFL/CFL could work.


Overall, though, I don't see any major US TV money forthcoming for the XFL, CFL, or a merged league.


It could be beneficial for both leagues to share players, coaches, scouts, etc. for as long as this version of the XFL lasts.

[Skinny G]

Perhaps the YES network would carry XFL/CFL games in addition to their larger properties? That could throw a wrench in the works when it comes to scheduling.

The Fox deal with TSL could possibly be used as a model for how a broadcast deal with the XFL/CFL could work.


Overall, though, I don't see any major US TV money forthcoming for the XFL, CFL, or a merged league.


It could be beneficial for both leagues to share players, coaches, scouts, etc. for as long as this version of the XFL lasts.

Agree with you!

It's humourous that people believe that all of a sudden the US is going to throw money to a merged league. The CFL has been televising in the US for a while now and it's not like the league got much money in the past.

Could you partner/collaborate in order to not treat each other as competition? Sure! But the XFL needs to show they can survive on it's own, IMO. There is just all these assumptions that this group can just magically make things work with limited sports business background.

[Skinny G]

A couple more videos for everyone:

Blake Nill talking about the continued improvement/growth of USports, and that he hopes we don't lose the Canadian Game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRzyVLd-Au0

Jim Mullin talks about football in 2021 and mentions his quick chat with Ambrosie. (Sounds like Ambrosie is still too enamoured with the XFL, and is still not taking into account the impact to amatuer football and the bigger picture, and start reaching younger demographics with the partnership of Football Canada. This is the low hanging fruit to grow the game and bring in some more younger fans).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2fEht1iKw8

[jerrym]

A couple more videos for everyone:

Blake Nill talking about the continued improvement/growth of USports, and that he hopes we don't lose the Canadian Game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRzyVLd-Au0
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRzyVLd-Au0)

Jim Mullin talks about football in 2021 and mentions his quick chat with Ambrosie. (Sounds like Ambrosie is still too enamoured with the XFL, and is still not taking into account the impact to amatuer football and the bigger picture, and start reaching younger demographics with the partnership of Football Canada. This is the low hanging fruit to grow the game and bring in some more younger fans).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2fEht1iKw8

Thanks. We need to keep up the fight for the Canadian game.

[Mocha]

A couple more videos for everyone:

Blake Nill talking about the continued improvement/growth of USports, and that he hopes we don't lose the Canadian Game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRzyVLd-Au0

Jim Mullin talks about football in 2021 and mentions his quick chat with Ambrosie. (Sounds like Ambrosie is still too enamoured with the XFL, and is still not taking into account the impact to amatuer football and the bigger picture, and start reaching younger demographics with the partnership of Football Canada. This is the low hanging fruit to grow the game and bring in some more younger fans).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2fEht1iKw8

I'm quite excited by what's been happening at Football Canada with Jim Mullin in charge.

Has anyone here read or seen anything about the contents of or results from the national football summit they held last October (IIRC)? I recall reading several stories in the weeks leading up to it, but then nothing afterwards. Also, I seem to recall there was supposed to be part 2 to that summit sometime this spring, but I didn't hear anything more about that.

[Skinny G]

FOX & TSL

This may or may not have an impact but Fox agreed to a multi year deal with The Spring League as their main broadcast partner, along with having the option to purchase a stake in the league itself. Does that impact Fox’s consideration to put in the money on a TV deal for the XFL or CFL/XFL?

https://www.foxsports.com/presspass/latest-news/2020/10/02/fox-sports-adds-spring-league-extensive-football-programming-lineup

2/2

I guess we kind of called this out? TSL Owner is bringing back the USFL with Doug Flutie as a promotional lead. Fox Sports will be the official broadcaster of the USFL. Clearly TSL Owner and Fox had a plan, and this REALLY impacts the XFL IMO.

https://3downnation.com/2021/06/03/doug-flutie-announces-united-states-football-league-returning-in-spring-2022/

That is now 3 other Spring Leagues (USFL, APL, Major League Football), and 4 if you include the TSL. Not sure if the TSL will be cancelled and focus will be put on the USFL instead.

[AngeloV]

I guess we kind of called this out? TSL Owner is bringing back the USFL with Doug Flutie as a promotional lead. Fox Sports will be the official broadcaster of the USFL. Clearly TSL Owner and Fox had a plan, and this REALLY impacts the XFL IMO.

https://3downnation.com/2021/06/03/doug-flutie-announces-united-states-football-league-returning-in-spring-2022/

That is now 3 other Spring Leagues (USFL, APL, Major League Football), and 4 if you include the TSL. Not sure if the TSL will be cancelled and focus will be put on the USFL instead.

As someone that really hopes there is no CFL/XFL merger, I see this as good news. Competition down south for the XFL, with FOX committed to the rival league, I believe will mean the XFL will never re-start.

[Mocha]

As someone that really hopes there is no CFL/XFL merger, I see this as good news. Competition down south for the XFL, with FOX committed to the rival league, I believe will mean the XFL will never re-start.

Agreed.

And if, as I think is likely, the USFL is another one-and-done upstart league, it will just add more doubt about the chances a third XFL go round would be any different, thus scaring off potential investors.

[Shatto]

Though the details of the USFL spring league are still unknown, there are a few pieces of information that indicate, it is quite possible that it could have a better chance of success than the XFL. They have a well known football personality (Doug Flutie) as the face of the league. More importantly, Fox Sports is heavily involved and will serve as the official broadcaster of the league. Fox Sports has partial ownership in the USFL and therefore has a vested interest in seeing the league succeed, whereas the XFL does not have that same advantage. It is unlikely that 2 spring leagues will survive. This could spell the death knell of the XFL. CFL be aware.

[paulwoods13]

The Spring League might not have done everything required to grab the USFL name and trademarks:

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/usfl-fox-philadelphia-stars-spring-20210603.html?utm_source=t.co&utm_campaign=edit_social_share_twitter_traffic&utm_medium=social&utm_content=&utm_term=&int_promo=

I find it a bit rich that a lot of CFL fans were so quick to dismiss the XFL as a twice-failed league that the CFL shouldn't waste time on, yet the minute someone pops up claiming to be the USFL (a brand that hasn't been active for 35 years), it's curtains for any other spring football venture.

[AngeloV]

The Spring League might not have done everything required to grab the USFL name and trademarks:

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/usfl-fox-philadelphia-stars-spring-20210603.html?utm_source=t.co&utm_campaign=edit_social_share_twitter_traffic&utm_medium=social&utm_content=&utm_term=&int_promo=

I find it a bit rich that a lot of CFL fans were so quick to dismiss the XFL as a twice-failed league that the CFL shouldn't waste time on, yet the minute someone pops up claiming to be the USFL (a brand that hasn't been active for 35 years), it's curtains for any other spring football venture.

Major difference is that the USFL has Fox's backing. XFL received zero TV money, and honestly, do you really believe there is going to be a TV war between 2 spring leagues? The point I was making is that if the USFL is backed by FOX, I don't see the XFL getting a TV contract period.

Having said all that, I never believed there was going to be a CFL/XFL merger to begin with. Nothing lines up. Single entity league vs individually owned teams. Time of year for the season being the 2 major points.

[Shatto]

AngeloV is quite right when he points out the XFL had no television money in the past and it doesn't look as if any is on the horizon. If a Fox Sports backed league is created, it automatically has a distinct advantage over the XFL. As Paul points out, the XFL is a twice failed league and investors will be wary if for no other reason than past failures often portent future failures.

Does anyone truly believe two spring leagues can be successful? If and admittedly it is still an uncertain if, another spring league, backed by a major broadcaster does become a reality, it will have a huge advantage over the XFL. It would appear to be a wise move for the CFL to disengage itself form the XFL, at least until the dust settles. Being tied to a three times failed league is not good optics.

[Mocha]

Well, the XFL talks seem to be over.

Anyone think they might resume after the CFL season, or was it an obvious non-starter to begin with?

[Skinny G]

Well, the XFL talks seem to be over.

Anyone thing they might resume after the CFL season, or was it an obvious non-starter to begin with?

Officially official :)

https://www.cfl.ca/2021/07/07/statement-cfl-regarding-xfl/

https://3downnation.com/2021/07/07/cfl-and-xfl-jointly-decide-not-pursue-any-formal-arrangements/

Also, Edmonton came out and directly said they are pleased that these discussions have ended and that focus is back on the CFL!

https://3downnation.com/2021/07/07/edmonton-elks-pleased-cfl-discussions-with-xfl-have-ended/

The league was sooo focused on this and didn't work on their own business planning, and potentially burned a lot of bridges along the way. It would be interesting to see reaction from folks like Jim Mullin and Football Canada, as well as USports and others.

Wonder if all other teams/owners will come out and say something, especially Montreal and Toronto who were apparently the 2 most focused on these talks, highly doubt it. But let's see.

[paulwoods13]

Well, the XFL talks seem to be over.

Anyone thing they might resume after the CFL season, or was it an obvious non-starter to begin with?

I personally don't believe we have heard the last of this. Even if discussions were still continuing, the league would have had to push it officially to the back burner to avoid the spectre of merger overshadowing the 2021 season. I don't think it is now any easier for MLSE to sell CFL football in this market than it was yesterday. I hope they can find a way to make it work so a "big bang" is not needed, but I'm not overly optimistic, given the challenges we have seen developing for years.

[Mocha]

I personally don't believe we have heard the last of this. Even if discussions were still continuing, the league would have had to push it officially to the back burner to avoid the spectre of merger overshadowing the 2021 season. I don't think it is now any easier for MLSE to sell CFL football in this market than it was yesterday. I hope they can find a way to make it work so a "big bang" is not needed, but I'm not overly optimistic, given the challenges we have seen developing for years.

Yeah, it would definitely make sense for the league to put the talks to rest while the season is ongoing. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens in the early months of 2022 to know if the talks will re-emerge.

I still think there's some room for a spring XFL played by teams with CFL affiliations to work, but I imagine the fate of the possibly re-born USFL could influence that.

[Wobbler]

I wasn't expecting anything to come out of this in 2021 unless the season was canceled. In that scenario I think we might have seen a plan for some sort of cooperative system in 2022.

Since 2021 is happening (whew!) the idea goes on the back burner. I imagine they'll stay in touch, but most likely nothing ever comes of it.

[Treblecharger1]

I personally don't believe we have heard the last of this. Even if discussions were still continuing, the league would have had to push it officially to the back burner to avoid the spectre of merger overshadowing the 2021 season. I don't think it is now any easier for MLSE to sell CFL football in this market than it was yesterday. I hope they can find a way to make it work so a "big bang" is not needed, but I'm not overly optimistic, given the challenges we have seen developing for years.

I agree with Paul, I think if the XFL launches in 2023 and is able to stay afloat a couple of seasons they will be back at the table.

[AngeloV]

I personally don't believe we have heard the last of this.

I believe we have Paul. I truly believe the CFL was using the XFL here and never intended on a merger of any type. As I have said earlier in this thread, I never believed this would happen. The schedules don't line up. XFL will not play opposite of the NFL, and the CFL would be ABSOLUTELY STUPID to start play a significant part of their season opposite the Stanley Cup playoffs. Add to that how do you merge a league with a single ownership entity vs one with each team having separate owners? It never made sense to me from the get go.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the XFL never starts up again.

[Skinny G]

Statement from the XFL:

“While our discussions with the CFL did not ultimately lead to a collaboration, the effort reinforced our belief and commitment to developing the XFL for international spring football. We look forward to seeing everyone for kickoff in spring of 2023.”

Based on the statement above from the XFL, how much information did the CFL give away about the CFL 2.0 Global initiative to the XFL? This initiative is a good one and the CFL has been the leader on this. But with their focus on the XFL, we saw the NFL expand it's own global initiatives, and now we see this comment from the XFL. Is the XFL trying to now undercut the CFL on the CFL global plan and partnerships via the International Alliance of Gridiron Football the CFL created?

The CFL has to get back to focusing on it's own plans, and fast and start rebuilding all the bridges that were burnt! Question now is, will this all impact Ambrosie staying on as Commissioner?

[OV Argo]

Last of XCFL or other such talks?

Never under-estimate the propensity of CFL deep thinkers / GOBs & BOGs to do whatever is best for their bottom lines and be willing to sell-out Canadian football (look at rosters now compared to the great CFL days of the 80s say); get rid of silly, quaint little Canadian rules like 3 downs, the rouge and the huge playing surface ? = no problem for GOBs & BOGs; and no more "ratio problem" cry-babying necessary from the usual suspects if they get rid of that "unfair" CFL roster rule.

[paulwoods13]

The CFL has to get back to focusing on it's own plans, and fast and start rebuilding all the bridges that were burnt!

Where are all these bridges that have been burnt? If you are talking about CIS and Football Canada, how have bridges been burnt? And even if they have, how would that have an impact on the CFL?

[Skinny G]

Where are all these bridges that have been burnt? If you are talking about CIS and Football Canada, how have bridges been burnt? And even if they have, how would that have an impact on the CFL?

The CFL needs to create a football infrastructure. If you can't realize that building from the ground up is key to the growth of any BUSINESS... then, this is the issue. People don't know business. Mullins came out and said that Ambrosie brushed him off since clearly he only cared about the XFL talks, what does that say? Plus, if Ambrosie didn't burn bridges, why would they have to put out a public statement on the matter instead of having direct conversations with the CFL.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/cfl/article/canadian-football-organizations-want-cfl-keep-traditional-components/

Also, it's been called out that the CFL has let the NFL take over programs like flag football in areas of the country (instead of even partnering with the NFL). Well if the CFL is not connected with these institutions, it's funny when people ask why kids don't care about the CFL. Yet, go do some research on the work the Football Canada is doing, and the fact that the CFL isn't really involved with them, you would recognize the missed opportunities they have... you know... to market to new fans...

Another example, the CFL wasn't part of the Ontario Mega Clinic... oh, what area do they need to desperately grow in again? Toronto. But where were they?

So to think that working with USports, Junior Football, and Football Canada has no impact to the growth of the CFL brand and business, would show the lack of business knowledge out there. Heck, the CFL even said themselves, that they recognize the impact of grass roots football and how critical it is to the game and to the league.

[argolio]

The way I see it, the XFL as a new entity had the burden of showing that a CFL-XFL collaboration could benefit the CFL. The CFL concluded there would be no substantial benefits.

Another fly in the ointment is that The Spring League, which has been operating down south since 2017 as a limited developmental league, plans to rebrand as an updated USFL. The Spring League got games on the main Fox network in 2021 for the first time. At least one other startup is also planned for next year. Unless one of these neverending spring leagues can actually survive for more than five minutes, the CFL should just ignore them.

[paulwoods13]

The CFL needs to create a football infrastructure. If you can't realize that building from the ground up is key to the growth of any BUSINESS... then, this is the issue. People don't know business. Mullins came out and said that Ambrosie brushed him off since clearly he only cared about the XFL talks, what does that say? Plus, if Ambrosie didn't burn bridges, why would they have to put out a public statement on the matter instead of having direct conversations with the CFL.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/cfl/article/canadian-football-organizations-want-cfl-keep-traditional-components/

Also, it's been called out that the CFL has let the NFL take over programs like flag football in areas of the country (instead of even partnering with the NFL). Well if the CFL is not connected with these institutions, it's funny when people ask why kids don't care about the CFL. Yet, go do some research on the work the Football Canada is doing, and the fact that the CFL isn't really involved with them, you would recognize the missed opportunities they have... you know... to market to new fans...

Another example, the CFL wasn't part of the Ontario Mega Clinic... oh, what area do they need to desperately grow in again? Toronto. But where were they?

So to think that working with USports, Junior Football, and Football Canada has no impact to the growth of the CFL brand and business, would show the lack of business knowledge out there. Heck, the CFL even said themselves, that they recognize the impact of grass roots football and how critical it is to the game and to the league.

So now that the CFL has burned those bridges, I guess Football Canada et al will . . . withhold funding from the CFL? Stop taking the CFL's calls?

Sure, grassroots football is important to the sport. But the CFL is in a whole other stratosphere as a business than Football Canada, Jr Football and CIS. The idea that the CFL's salvation requires a better relationship with amateur football orgs does not seem to reflect the type of business knowledge of which you speak.

[Skinny G]

So now that the CFL has burned those bridges, I guess Football Canada et al will . . . withhold funding from the CFL? Stop taking the CFL's calls?

Sure, grassroots football is important to the sport. But the CFL is in a whole other stratosphere as a business than Football Canada, Jr Football and CIS. The idea that the CFL's salvation requires a better relationship with amateur football orgs does not seem to reflect the type of business knowledge of which you speak.

Based on your "sound business logic" the CFL doesn't then need or want any young fans, and does not want to market to what would be considered a potential base target market, right? I guess the league doesn't want those younger and more diversified fans that are already involved in football right? I guess they don't want an easy win, as a starting point. Maybe by your logic, they don't need new fans at all... because they are in a "whole other stratosphere" and are not desperate to widen and increase their fan base. So I guess, we may as well let the NFL take them! :)

I guess based on your logic, they shouldn't follow other internationally successful leagues like the NBA and NFL, and they should not care about youth that are already playing their sport and developing them into life long fans through partnerships with Football Canada and others.

Makes total business sense to me!

[Wobbler]

The league will have plenty of work to do reminding people of its existence and convincing half-hearted fans to attend despite the minor inconveniences they'll face in stadiums.

I'm not aware of any burnt bridges, though.

[paulwoods13]

Based on your "sound business logic" the CFL doesn't then need or want any young fans, and does not want to market to what would be considered a potential base target market, right? I guess the league doesn't want those younger and more diversified fans that are already involved in football right? I guess they don't want an easy win, as a starting point. Maybe by your logic, they don't need new fans at all... because they are in a "whole other stratosphere" and are not desperate to widen and increase their fan base. So I guess, we may as well let the NFL take them! :)

I guess based on your logic, they shouldn't follow other internationally successful leagues like the NBA and NFL, and they should not care about youth that are already playing their sport and developing them into life long fans through partnerships with Football Canada and others.

Makes total business sense to me!

You are welcome to interpret my comments any way you like, but I was specifically responding to the notion that the CFL has "burnt bridges" with other football groups, and that this is somehow damaging to its prospects of business success. If it was thriving before it burnt the bridges, and was now failing, I suppose such a case could be made. And I guess if what you are suggesting is true, the bridges must have been burned long before the XFL came into the picture.

[Skinny G]

The league will have plenty of work to do reminding people of its existence and convincing half-hearted fans to attend despite the minor inconveniences they'll face in stadiums.

I'm not aware of any burnt bridges, though.

Agree with you, that they definitely have tons of work to do!

In terms of burnt bridges, what I meant more was it shows that relationships have been fractured more than likely causing a lack of trust and potential loss of good will. Can bridges be built up again, of course they can. But has this whole situation impacted these relationships? IMO I'd say so, especially based on how the joint letter was released, as well as from Jim Mullin's interview which was posted in this thread before. That being said, Ambrosie should get back to rebuilding any and all affected relationships. When it comes to the league working with Football Canada (and others), having synergies with these groups will of course benefit both sides.

Personally also feel that this whole CFL/XFL thing may have impacted relations with NFL, looking at the sharp change when it comes to holding more games outside of the US, in regions where CFL had originally created plans to grow their brand via partnerships with respective leagues.

[Skinny G]

You are welcome to interpret my comments any way you like, but I was specifically responding to the notion that the CFL has "burnt bridges" with other football groups, and that this is somehow damaging to its prospects of business success. If it was thriving before it burnt the bridges, and was now failing, I suppose such a case could be made. And I guess if what you are suggesting is true, the bridges must have been burned long before the XFL came into the picture.

The "burnt bridges" or as explained above - fractured relationships does has the potential to impact the business. How much? Who knows? But it has been called out time and time again, and the league needs to bring in younger fans and fans of diverse backgrounds. So to think that damaging relationships with the various football groups which have that direct ability to engage and market to these younger fans has no benefit to the league is interesting. It's not to say it's the end all be all, but it's obvious that working together is good for the league, and if you're going to start somewhere (since the league essentially wasted a year with barely any focus on marketing, fan engagement, etc.), then you should start with what would be considered a core target market. To be able to start that, the league has to reestablish trust, but I see someone with the integrity of Jim Mullin putting it all aside for the good of the game. This is just the beginning of the rebuilding and growing process for the league, and collaboration with these groups should be an easy if handled with common sense.

[Argo57]

I believe we have Paul. I truly believe the CFL was using the XFL here and never intended on a merger of any type. As I have said earlier in this thread, I never believed this would happen. The schedules don't line up. XFL will not play opposite of the NFL, and the CFL would be ABSOLUTELY STUPID to start play a significant part of their season opposite the Stanley Cup playoffs. Add to that how do you merge a league with a single ownership entity vs one with each team having separate owners? It never made sense to me from the get go.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the XFL never starts up again.

Let the CFL sink or swim on its own, hopefully the recently passed single game betting bill will open up a new revenue stream for the league.
Much needs to be cleaned up in regards to how the league operates moving forward, I personally had no interest in seeing the CFL merge with the XFL so I’m glad this is over and done with.

[gilthethrill]

Let the CFL sink or swim on its own, hopefully the recently passed single game betting bill will open up a new revenue stream for the league.
Much needs to be cleaned up in regards to how the league operates moving forward, I personally had no interest in seeing the CFL merge with the XFL so I’m glad this is over and done with.

Not a Seattle Dragons fan I gather?

[AngeloV]

Not a Seattle Dragons fan I gather?

When did they relocate from Barcelona?

[Topshelf]

The XFL was a bad idea, but the fallout mentioned in the Star today should be concerning. If MLSE cant make the argos work, noone can.
As it stands, the NFL is simply impossible to compete with. So in Toronto, the Argos are on par with the Marlies. The best way to save the CFL is just go full minor league. Cut salaries, focus on primarily Canadian players, set it up so your break even is a gate of 10,000 fans.
I don't think you'll notice a huge drop off in the on field product, and it may even allow a team in Halifax, London, Quebec City, etc to be economically feasible.

[AngeloV]

The XFL was a bad idea, but the fallout mentioned in the Star today should be concerning. If MLSE cant make the argos work, noone can.
As it stands, the NFL is simply impossible to compete with. So in Toronto, the Argos are on par with the Marlies. The best way to save the CFL is just go full minor league. Cut salaries, focus on primarily Canadian players, set it up so your break even is a gate of 10,000 fans.
I don't think you'll notice a huge drop off in the on field product, and it may even allow a team in Halifax, London, Quebec City, etc to be economically feasible.

How about trying to seriously market individual players and make them stars? To me, it's no coincidence that JWJ was all over the media the week of the 2017 Eastern final. He was interviewed during a Leafs game, and a Raptors game, was on BT, and other TV news shows, and they had 25k in the stands for that game. Yes it was a playoff game, but they created buzz, by giving the average people in the city someone to recognize. They need to do this throughout the season and make individual platers recognizable in the city.

Also, would it kill MLSE to add $200 or $300 to the price of a Leafs lower bowl season ticket and give that ticket holder an Argos season ticket? Would they really even notice the price jumping from $8,000 to $8.200 or $8,300? They have propped up the Marlies that way over the years.

[argolio]

Also, would it kill MLSE to add $200 or $300 to the price of a Leafs lower bowl season ticket and give that ticket holder an Argos season ticket? Would they really even notice the price jumping from $8,000 to $8.200 or $8,300? They have propped up the Marlies that way over the years.Soak the platinum rich -- I'm all for that! :p

[Topshelf]

How about trying to seriously market individual players and make them stars? To me, it's no coincidence that JWJ was all over the media the week of the 2017 Eastern final. He was interviewed during a Leafs game, and a Raptors game, was on BT, and other TV news shows, and they had 25k in the stands for that game. Yes it was a playoff game, but they created buzz, by giving the average people in the city someone to recognize. They need to do this throughout the season and make individual platers recognizable in the city.

Also, would it kill MLSE to add $200 or $300 to the price of a Leafs lower bowl season ticket and give that ticket holder an Argos season ticket? Would they really even notice the price jumping from $8,000 to $8.200 or $8,300? They have propped up the Marlies that way over the years.

The Eastern final also had a lot of giveaways. I was there in a free seat.
I agree they need some marketable players. The last player to truly generate a buzz was Rickey Williams. I wrote a long reply and then realized i was on an off topic tangent about Argos marketing.
For the XFL, the issue is in BC, Toronto and Montreal, the league is dying. Maybe that wouldve created some kinda energy, but we never even heard the plan. It couldve been as simple as shared centralized scouting and preseason camps in the states. Everyone reached and assumed the Sacramento Miners were coming back.
As it stands, the CFL cant survive. So something will have to be figured out in next 10 years.

[AngeloV]

Well, apparently since one person was in a free seat, they had a lot of giveaways. Whatever. Who cares about the XFL anyways. 35 years of “the CFL can’t survive” and guess what? They start up again in 26 days.