Argos to the XFL?

[jerrym]

With the CFL turning down further cooperation with the XFL, there are now concerns that the Argos might switch to the XFL. It was MLSE that pushed for talks with the XFL, raising questions about whether they might jump to the league in 2023 when it starts up again. I don't see this being successful if it comes to pass because most of the hard core Argo fan base wouldn't jump ship, especially if the CFL was still around. Furthermore, I don't see the XFL building a strong new fan base here when those wanting American football want the premier league, the NFL. Or is killing off the Argos as a CFL team, a prelude to pursuing a NFL team?



The CFL's announcement Wednesday that it had ended talks with the XFL was significant because league sources have continually suggested that MLSE had long been a driving force in a collaboration with the American-based spring league.

With reported annual losses of around $12 million operating within the Canadian league's status quo, MLSE was the catalyst for the XFL discussion and saw a potential partnership as a way to establish a new structure that could help improve the football entity's fortunes, according to multiple sources.
The sources were granted anonymity because neither MLSE nor the CFL has divulged the exact nature of talks with the XFL. ...

So while the CFL's decision Wednesday allows it and the nine member teams to concentrate solely upon the '21 season, it hasn't resolved the Argos' issues and only served to raise questions about the future of the franchise and, most notably, it's current owner.
MLSE spokesman Dave Haggith said Thursday the organization's sole focus is "on the CFL's return to play this season. That's what we're excited about for both the league and it's fans."
At first glance, it would appear the company has three options to consider moving forward:

Having Toronto join the XFL when the spring league resumes play in 2023 because it's much easier to reach a deal with one team rather than a nine-franchise league.
Selling the Argos in time for the 2022 season.
Continue owning the franchise and negotiating a better business model/structure for the CFL moving forward given that teams in its biggest markets — Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver — are struggling. Trouble is, the league is unique in that it has three different models in place with community-owned teams (Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, Edmonton), those that are privately owned (Hamilton, B.C. and Montreal) and three owned by conglomerates (Toronto, Calgary and Ottawa).
The second option, though, could be somewhat tricky given the tough sell Argos football has been in Toronto. The franchise averaged a league-low 12,491 spectators in 2019, the last time games were played, and that figure was more than 10,000 spectators under the league's average (22,917).

There's no questioning the depth of MLSE's pockets — its estimated value reportedly exceeds $1 billion — but the company is not in the business of losing money. And for the second option to happen, there'd have to be a willing purchaser which under the current circumstances may be hard to find. Any sale of the Argos would likely have to carry the caveat of a favourable lease at BMO Field to help offset the franchise's losses. Although the City of Toronto owns the facility, MLSE manages it. But the question remains: if MSLE can't sell the Argos in time for the 2022 CFL season, will the Toronto franchise operate north of the border? And if it does not, what impact will that have on the league? ...

There've been suggestions the CFL change its business model to adopt revenue-sharing to help struggling franchises. However, the bigger question remains just how much money is available to split up, especially during a pandemic and at a time when no club took in any revenue in 2020 because the league didn't play. The CFL's three community-based teams lost a combined $21.5 million in 2020.

The three franchises traditionally posted annual profits prior to the pandemic. Some league officials are quick to suggest the CFL already operates with a form of revenue sharing in that the nine teams split up equally the money generated from the broadcast agreement with TSN.
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/cfl/long-term-future-of-toronto-argonauts-a-question-that-s-facing-cfl-1.6095382

[Argo57]

I guess there always has to be speculation, one crisis over so on to the next.
Tiresome, just want to enjoy CFL football.

[Mocha]

Perhaps MLSE could have the Argos play in both leagues. Or own and operate two separate teams.

I think the novelty would attract some fans at first, but 2nd-tier outdoor spring football would be in tough in that market going up against NHL and NBA playoffs as well as MLS and MLB early season games.

I'd be favour of allowing CFL players to play in both leagues, as long as their rights remained with their CFL club as normal. It would give them some extra cash and bring at least some increased amount of awareness of the CFL to US markets.

[Will]

Assuming there is merit to this rumor, what makes MLSE think that Torontonians won't thumb their nose at the XFL?

[argolio]

What the deuce?

Argo57 got it right in one word: tiresome.

[Stevoman]

I'm happy there's no more talks with the XFL. However, this is a crucial time for the Argos. I believe they've built a very good front office and a destination that players want to go to and so I really hope this builds some momentum with wins on the field and fans in the stands. I really think they need to give this regime a few seasons to see if their strategy is working. I love the amount of local players that they have and really hope it translates to more attendance at BMO.

[Wobbler]

The XFL's site is truly terrible. I couldn't even figure out how many teams there were or the division format without consulting Wikipedia. Presumably the Argos would join their East division (DC, NYC, St. Louis, Tampa). Tampa is coached by Trestman (assuming that the contracts are still valid), so that could be fun.

[paulwoods13]

Much as we might wish it weren't so, I believe it is entirely plausible that MLSE is considering all options, including engaging directly with the XFL. I'm finding it increasingly hard to imagine the nine-team CFL becoming enticing to a new audience in this market. There are likely 10,000 or so hard-core fans who live and die by the Argos, and a few thousand more who care enough to buy tickets on occasion. Among the rest of the population, the Argos essentially don't seem to exist. Can something change that? Hopefully. But I'm sure MLSE has been asking itself that question for three years, and I'm not sure they're coming up with the answer we all want.

[Mightygoose]

I wouldn't be surprised is MLSE will be in talks with Redbird directly either and agreed they'll look at all options.

When the league talks with the XFL ended, the Elks tweet saying they're pleased that they ended etc....is telling the not enough owners are on the same page moving forward. What kind of shared vision with different partners (current and future) may determine what happens as opposed to what brand of football they're going to try and sell.

Saying that I still think they would rather see the CFL's business model change first and foremost. Weather there is enough support with enough with their current partners is key.

Another key of course is the XFL's ability to launch in 2023

[jerrym]

I'm happy there's no more talks with the XFL. However, this is a crucial time for the Argos. I believe they've built a very good front office and a destination that players want to go to and so I really hope this builds some momentum with wins on the field and fans in the stands. I really think they need to give this regime a few seasons to see if their strategy is working. I love the amount of local players that they have and really hope it translates to more attendance at BMO.


Much as we might wish it weren't so, I believe it is entirely plausible that MLSE is considering all options, including engaging directly with the XFL. I'm finding it increasingly hard to imagine the nine-team CFL becoming enticing to a new audience in this market. There are likely 10,000 or so hard-core fans who live and die by the Argos, and a few thousand more who care enough to buy tickets on occasion. Among the rest of the population, the Argos essentially don't seem to exist. Can something change that? Hopefully. But I'm sure MLSE has been asking itself that question for three years, and I'm not sure they're coming up with the answer we all want.

I agree with the former quote and fear the latter is a possibility. However, let's enjoy it now, especially when this is a team that has the potential to go all the way, something I didn't think was likely the last couple of years.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

Perhaps MLSE could have the Argos play in both leagues. Or own and operate two separate teams.

Argonauts 2.0.

I'm not sure MLSE is thrilled at having the team they have now never mind starting another one. I would be more concerned about MLSE getting out of the football business entirely instead of hitching their wagon to an American league that has failed twice. My personal belief is that if Maple Leaf Sports was looking to get into the US football market it would be NFL or bust.

[Mocha]

Argonauts 2.0.

I'm not sure MLSE is thrilled at having the team they have now never mind starting another one. I would be more concerned about MLSE getting out of the football business entirely instead of hitching their wagon to an American league that has failed twice. My personal belief is that if Maple Leaf Sports was looking to get into the US football market it would be NFL or bust.

You could well be correct. I'm sure they'd love to land an NFL team.

Perhaps they thought having the Argos play in the XFL would bring more eyes to the Argos in the CFL?

[West Hill Wide Out]

There are no easy or quick answers to building interest in the CFL in Toronto. I hope MLSE markets and pushes to build the Argonauts with all their considerable resources. Ideas like joining with the XFL are just that - ideas. Helping to strengthen the Argos with new revenue streams, building diversity in the fan base and developing Canadian talent should be some of the first priorities. This task will take years not months...I would be more excited by a new Halifax franchise and plans for greater co-operation among owners than a novelty deal of some kind with the XFL.

[Mocha]

There are no easy or quick answers to building interest in the CFL in Toronto. I hope MLSE markets and pushes to build the Argonauts with all their considerable resources. Ideas like joining with the XFL are just that - ideas. Helping to strengthen the Argos with new revenue streams, building diversity in the fan base and developing Canadian talent should be some of the first priorities. This task will take years not months...I would be more excited by a new Halifax franchise and plans for greater co-operation among owners than a novelty deal of some kind with the XFL.

I think the addition of the betting revenue stream combined with the greater revenue sharing that might be voted in this season are two positives. They could help entice SSE to pony up for a stadium in Halifax. Having a team there should effect a positive impact on the league in general.

[AngeloV]

I think the addition of the betting revenue stream combined with the greater revenue sharing that might be voted in this season are two positives. They could help entice SSE to pony up for a stadium in Halifax. Having a team there should effect a positive impact on the league in general.

I don't disagree. I still think the league in general and specifically the Argos need to market individual players and make them known in the city. However for this to work, the star players need to be retained and not change teams every year. I have no clue how the league never adopted a rule which allows teams to retain their own free agents by allowing them to pay these players more to stay.

[Mocha]

I don't disagree. I still think the league in general and specifically the Argos need to market individual players and make them known in the city. However for this to work, the star players need to be retained and not change teams every year. I have no clue how the league never adopted a rule which allows teams to retain their own free agents by allowing them to pay these players more to stay.

I think this would be a positive step for sure.

Considering the small slice of the revenue pie that goes to the players, I understand how the the league compromised with the PA on shorter-term deals to allow players more opportunity to pursue NFL aspirations, but the degree of turnover each season these last few years is damaging.


If the league were able to attract sponsors to make commercials featuring its players something like this Jose Cuervo UFC ad, we'd be in a much better place. Probably a lot of work to get us in that spot though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUGQ92iggcs

[Argo57]

I don't disagree. I still think the league in general and specifically the Argos need to market individual players and make them known in the city. However for this to work, the star players need to be retained and not change teams every year. I have no clue how the league never adopted a rule which allows teams to retain their own free agents by allowing them to pay these players more to stay.

In the early 1980’s some of us remember when the majority of the roster stayed the same for many years with only a handful of changes every year.
Not only did you get to know the Argonauts roster but you became very familiar with all of the CFL rosters, you got invested in the players and uniform they wore, fast forward to the present and you simply cheer for the uniform and have less invested in the actual player which is a shame.
I guarantee I can name as many or more players from the 1983 team as from the 2012 and 2017 Grey Cup teams.
The musical chairs CFL roster instability hurts the league substantially and also penalizes franchises that do a good job of recruiting and developing players.

[AngeloV]

I think this would be a positive step for sure.

Considering the small slice of the revenue pie that goes to the players, I understand how the the league compromised with the PA on shorter-term deals to allow players more opportunity to pursue NFL aspirations, but the degree of turnover each season these last few years is damaging.


If the league were able to attract sponsors to make commercials featuring its players something like this Jose Cuervo UFC ad, we'd be in a much better place. Probably a lot of work to get us in that spot though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUGQ92iggcs

I suggested this to Randy Ambrosie during his Toronto stop on of his tour I believe in 2018. He never really answered my question when I asked if the league would consider letting a certain percentage of a re-signed players contract not count against the cap (I suggested 15%.) My point being that too much player movement hurts. You need to have recognizable stars that stay for the majority of their careers in the same city.

[AngeloV]

In the early 1980’s some of us remember when the majority of the roster stayed the same for many years with only a handful of changes every year.
Not only did you get to know the Argonauts roster but you became very familiar with all of the CFL rosters, you got invested in the players and uniform they wore, fast forward to the present and you simply cheer for the uniform and have less invested in the actual player which is a shame.
I guarantee I can name as many or more players from the 1983 team as from the 2012 and 2017 Grey Cup teams.
The musical chairs CFL roster instability hurts the league substantially and also penalizes franchises that do a good job of recruiting and developing players.

100%

[Argo57]

I suggested this to Randy Ambrosie during his Toronto stop on of his tour I believe in 2018. He never really answered my question when I asked if the league would consider letting a certain percentage of a re-signed players contract not count against the cap (I suggested 15%.) My point being that too much player movement hurts. You need to have recognizable stars that stay for the majority of their careers in the same city.

I like this idea Angelo, rewards roster stability and improves the quality of play around the league.
I’m shocked that Randy didn’t address your suggestion.

[paulwoods13]

In the early 1980’s some of us remember when the majority of the roster stayed the same for many years with only a handful of changes every year.
Not only did you get to know the Argonauts roster but you became very familiar with all of the CFL rosters, you got invested in the players and uniform they wore, fast forward to the present and you simply cheer for the uniform and have less invested in the actual player which is a shame.
I guarantee I can name as many or more players from the 1983 team as from the 2012 and 2017 Grey Cup teams.
The musical chairs CFL roster instability hurts the league substantially and also penalizes franchises that do a good job of recruiting and developing players.

I'm not disputing the overall point that roster stability would be preferable, but I don't think the rosters were quite as stable back then as memory suggests. The Argos turned over the vast majority of their defence between 1982 and '83, including all three starting LBs, two starting defensive linemen and at least three DBs. They did remain pretty set on offence for a few seasons, but after Minter left we had a new RB each year, and we went through quite a few receivers apart from Pearson and Greer. (Steve Cox, Kerry Taylor, etc.)

[AngeloV]

I'm not disputing the overall point that roster stability would be preferable, but I don't think the rosters were quite as stable back then as memory suggests. The Argos turned over the vast majority of their defence between 1982 and '83, including all three starting LBs, two starting defensive linemen and at least three DBs. They did remain pretty set on offence for a few seasons, but after Minter left we had a new RB each year, and we went through quite a few receivers apart from Pearson and Greer. (Steve Cox, Kerry Taylor, etc.)

I don't disagree. A lot of that was the Obie way though. Today, players in general are signing 1 year deals, and I don't blame them. The fact that they can be cut at any time, I would do the same in their position. As it stands, there is no benefit to them of signing anything longer term. I just think the league needs to give star players incentive to stay put while they stay in the CFL Whether that means percentage not count against the cap, or more guaranteed money to re-sign with their own teams.

[Mocha]

I suggested this to Randy Ambrosie during his Toronto stop on of his tour I believe in 2018. He never really answered my question when I asked if the league would consider letting a certain percentage of a re-signed players contract not count against the cap (I suggested 15%.) My point being that too much player movement hurts. You need to have recognizable stars that stay for the majority of their careers in the same city.

I like this suggestion too.

I'm hoping that with new ownership in Montreal (who recently hinted at greater revenue sharing in the pipelines) and BC (hopefully soon), we'll see the BOG better able to move quickly on positive initiatives like increasing roster stability.

[Will]

I'm not disputing the overall point that roster stability would be preferable, but I don't think the rosters were quite as stable back then as memory suggests. The Argos turned over the vast majority of their defence between 1982 and '83, including all three starting LBs, two starting defensive linemen and at least three DBs. They did remain pretty set on offence for a few seasons, but after Minter left we had a new RB each year, and we went through quite a few receivers apart from Pearson and Greer. (Steve Cox, Kerry Taylor, etc.)

The 1987 to 1992 period was a little more stable albeit not completely. The OL remained largely intact as did key pieces of the DL and secondary. The turnover was really at linebacker and QB.

[jerrym]

I suggested this to Randy Ambrosie during his Toronto stop on of his tour I believe in 2018. He never really answered my question when I asked if the league would consider letting a certain percentage of a re-signed players contract not count against the cap (I suggested 15%.) My point being that too much player movement hurts. You need to have recognizable stars that stay for the majority of their careers in the same city.

I also think this would be a great idea. Maybe if fans keep pushing for it, the league will finally get the message.

[paulwoods13]

The 1987 to 1992 period was a little more stable albeit not completely. The OL remained largely intact as did key pieces of the DL and secondary. The turnover was really at linebacker and QB.

The o-line was an incredibly stable operation for a decade. Ferrone was there starting in 1981, Beckstead and Pruenster in 1983, Schultz in 1986. Skemp, Kardash and Schmidt also served long stints. That was a key reason the club had so much success for a decade. Unfortunately, o-line guys don't tend to be the "face" of the franchise, altho Ferrone was a go-to quote because he was hilarious, and Schultz (as we learned later on TSN) was insightful and analytical. (As was Pruenster, but reporters never bothered to talk to him.)

[Skinny G]

The rumours of the Argos considering options to go to the XFL seems like it has too much of a impact to Bell pertaining to the CFL TV deal. Would they really risk impacting a valuable TV product for something that is not guaranteed?

We all know the Argos draw well on TV, so pulling the Argos would have an impact to those numbers. Plus, with the majority of TV (and league) sponsors being in Toronto, TSN/Bell would probably lose money there too. IMO if Manning is pushing this, it could potentially cause some internal opposition.

3DownNation brings up a good point here:

https://3downnation.com/2021/07/19/monday-mailbag-could-the-toronto-argonauts-really-end-up-in-the-xfl/

Could MLSE be driving the rumours to force the other teams into ensuring revenue sharing is set up within the league? It's been a year and a half since the CFL last played, and still no updates to the business model.

[ArgoRavi]

The 1987 to 1992 period was a little more stable albeit not completely. The OL remained largely intact as did key pieces of the DL and secondary. The turnover was really at linebacker and QB.

I think that player stability in the CFL was at a high in the 2000s. The Argos kept mostly the same defence together from 2003-08. Montreal and BC kept the same core together for years too. The introduction of one-year contracts has really hurt this league in recent years. The league and the PA need to come together to find a solution here.

[gilthethrill]

I think that player stability in the CFL was at a high in the 2000s. The Argos kept mostly the same defence together from 2003-08. Montreal and BC kept the same core together for years too. The introduction of one-year contracts has really hurt this league in recent years. The league and the PA need to come together to find a solution here.

The 1 Year Contracts are here to stay I am afraid. Too much interest in the league with players playing musical chairs during the first few days of Free Agency.

[Foxhound]

With the CFL turning down further cooperation with the XFL, there are now concerns that the Argos might switch to the XFL. It was MLSE that pushed for talks with the XFL, raising questions about whether they might jump to the league in 2023 when it starts up again. I don't see this being successful if it comes to pass because most of the hard core Argo fan base wouldn't jump ship, especially if the CFL was still around. Furthermore, I don't see the XFL building a strong new fan base here when those wanting American football want the premier league, the NFL.

I agree. Who is it in Toronto that wants to see spring football, let alone the circus that is the XFL?

:sick:

[Mocha]

The 1 Year Contracts are here to stay I am afraid. Too much interest in the league with players playing musical chairs during the first few days of Free Agency.

I've never thought of it from the perspective of increased interest during FA. That does make some sense, unfortunately, as I think increased roster stability would be better for the league. I had always assumed the move to 1-year contracts was just a concession to the PA for their relatively low share of revenues.

[paulwoods13]

Players are never going to agree to minimum two-year commitments. That ship has sailed.

[Foxhound]

That does make some sense, unfortunately, as I think increased roster stability would be better for the league.

Truth.

[AngeloV]

I think that player stability in the CFL was at a high in the 2000s. The Argos kept mostly the same defence together from 2003-08. Montreal and BC kept the same core together for years too. The introduction of one-year contracts has really hurt this league in recent years. The league and the PA need to come together to find a solution here.

I've said this before, but if I was a player, I would never sign more than a 1 year contract (this came up years ago when it was suggested the Argos sign Swaze Waters to a 10 year contract ROTFL). There is absolutely zero incentive for a player to da it under the current CBA. Players can get cut at any time, and then could be looking for work at a bad time to find it. Unless the League starts allowing teams to guarantee a higher portion of a contract, from a players perspective, it makes no sense to sign a multi year contract. I also believe that with teams holding all the power, they shouldn't be allowed to lock a player in without a mutual agreement. I know Victor Butler and JWJ took a lot of heat after the 17 season, but truth be told, they were both right.