Week 10 Game Thread - Ottawa Redblacks @ Toronto Argonauts

[Will]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We&#39;re throwing it back to 1991 ⏪<br><br>Celebrating the &#39;91 champs + a giveaway 🏆</p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/1444008105696706561?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 1, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Will]

I don't know how many of the '91 alumni they can bring in for this.

As for the game itself, Ottawa beat Edmonton last week in a huge upset! The Argos will have film on this new Ottawa QB, and hopefully they don't take the Redblacks lightly. Important game with Hamilton losing versus Montreal.

[Mike Hogan]

There will be 25ish members of the team there, with several flying in from the US. They are all aware of the protocols needed to enter the country and attend the game.

[AngeloV]

Looking forward to this.

On a side note, Argos once again get screwed regarding the schedule, going back to Hamilton 5 days after the Ottawa tilt, while the Cats have 9 days between games.
I know because of the pandemic things are expected to be a little different this year as far as scheduling goes, but why is it always the Argos that get the short weeks? Even their bye weeks aren't full bye weeks.

[Argo57]

Looking forward to this.

On a side note, Argos once again get screwed regarding the schedule, going back to Hamilton 5 days after the Ottawa tilt, while the Cats have 9 days between games.
I know because of the pandemic things are expected to be a little different this year as far as scheduling goes, but why is it always the Argos that get the short weeks? Even their bye weeks aren't full bye weeks.

Yeah but the league does everything in their power to help the Argos don’t they?

[Will]

Looking forward to this.

On a side note, Argos once again get screwed regarding the schedule, going back to Hamilton 5 days after the Ottawa tilt, while the Cats have 9 days between games.
I know because of the pandemic things are expected to be a little different this year as far as scheduling goes, but why is it always the Argos that get the short weeks? Even their bye weeks aren't full bye weeks.

Hamilton had 5 days between their game against Calgary and their game against Ottawa. Of course, the quality of opponent the Argos will face on 5 days rest is much different than Hamilton.

[Will]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="und" dir="ltr">👀🌊 <a href="https://t.co/Il2SWhGzZY">pic.twitter.com/Il2SWhGzZY</a></p>&mdash; Toronto Argonauts (@TorontoArgos) <a href="https://twitter.com/TorontoArgos/status/1444728958004744202?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 3, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[ArgoGabe22]

Those helmets are a lot way nicer than what they have now. It just pops/glows

[Argo57]

Those helmets are a lot way nicer than what they have now. It just pops/glows

They both look good but I do like the updated boat logo.
Wouldn’t mind I’d f they went back to the 1991 uniforms over hat they have now.

[paulwoods13]

Can't wait -- for the game, the reunion, the tribute, the helmets, etc.

[jerrym]

Hopefully, Ottawa beating Edmonton for the second time will keep the Argos from taking this game lightly and blowing it.

[Wobbler]

Edmonton lost because of general incompetence, Devonte Dedmon's terrific kick returns, and Caleb Evans' running ability.

The Argos have at times looked incompetent, have had some problems on kick coverage, and gave up a lot of running yards last week, but they should be thoroughly prepared for Ottawa and I expect a win by 20+ points no matter who plays QB.

[Wobbler]

Speaking of which...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FA0HH4zXMAEFNvi?format=jpg&name=medium

- MBT is practicing fully but Arbuckle still isn't, so it's pretty easy to guess who will start on Wednesday
- Shaq Richardson seems good to go, eliminating any concern about the secondary
- Noel didn't practice and seems unlikely to play this week
- Mixed news on the OL: Blake is back practicing full time, but Bladek was limited today

[Will]

The concern on that list is Acheampong. More juggling to the lineup will be required if he is injured due to the ratio. I assume Robbie Smith would start at DE and Colquhoun at corner.

[AngeloV]

The concern on that list is Acheampong. More juggling to the lineup will be required if he is injured due to the ratio. I assume Robbie Smith would start at DE and Colquhoun at corner.

I think they might be starting Cassar in the middle with Diggs released and Tuggle likely not ready to start. Is Tuggle in quarantine?

[Will]

I think they might be starting Cassar in the middle with Diggs released and Tuggle likely not ready to start. Is Tuggle in quarantine?

I don't know if he is in quarantine or not. I cannot remember if he was in camp with anyone.

I'm a little reluctant about having to start Cassar.

[Wobbler]

Since Rogers is still limping I think there's a good chance Brissett starts, so Colquhoun at corner would be sufficient.

[Shatto]

The latest injury report shows Acheampong to be healthy enough to do a full practice, so it appears he will be ready for the game. If this is the case, I hope Jeanpierre starts in the place of the injured Rogers. He was the leading receiver in the last game and brings outstanding speed to the game. He has size 6'1" and 4.25 speed. Based on the last game he deserves to be starting on Wednesday.

It is not only QB's the team have let go only to have them return to haunt them. Receiver Bralon Addison was an Argo and released and then went on to become a CFL all-star playing for Hamilton. It is way too early to compare Jeanpierre to Addison but he has shown he has to potential to be a very good receiver.

[Wobbler]

Actually Acheampong is listed twice, both as DNP and Full. I wonder which one is true?

Collins is out in addition to Rogers, so I think Jeanpierre is pretty much guaranteed to play.

Edit: FWIW, in his pre-game podcast, Ben Grant says that Acheampong did practice today. He also seems to think that Collins and maybe Bladek will play too.

[paulwoods13]

It is not only QB's the team have let go only to have them return to haunt them. Receiver Bralon Addison was an Argo and released and then went on to become a CFL all-star playing for Hamilton. It is way too early to compare Jeanpierre to Addison but he has shown he has to potential to be a very good receiver.

I agree Jeanpierre has a lot of potential and we need to hang on to him. Losing Addison still rankles. It reminds me of losing Steve Stapler to Hamilton in 1981. It would be interesting to see how many eventually great players each team let go for nothing. Geroy Simon comes to mind -- I think he was on Wpg originally. This year's best example possibly (altho it was through free agency and not an outright release like Addison and Stapler) is Lucky Whitehead.

[OV Argo]

Really can't see Jones, if he has full influence now, starting a rookie Canadian like Cassar at MLB; Jones likes to demonstrate what a genius he is by having players line-up all over the place or out of position. McCoil could line-up at MLB, and Dexter should be on the field on D at all times IMO.

[ArgoGabe22]

Specials needed work but listing four FBs on the depth chart seems excessive

[Wobbler]

Lots of interesting stuff on the chart. Cassar does indeed get the start at MIKE, and the linebacking corps looks light. If I was Ottawa I wouldn't expect to be shown much 3-4 in this game.

Pretty much everyone healthy is dressing on the DL, but they've chosen to feature Feeney and Ray on the ends. Interesting.

Blake returns but he's starting at LG, pushing Shane Richards to RG, and Nicastro keeps his job at center. Looks like a good group and I assume that Shatto is pleased.

[AngeloV]

Lots of interesting stuff on the chart. Cassar does indeed get the start at MIKE,

Feel free to call me a genius at any time. :)

[AngeloV]

Jones likes to demonstrate what a genius he is by having players line-up all over the place or out of position.

Well, moving AC Leonard from TE to DE appears to have been a great move on Jones' part. One of the best positional switches for a player ever, if you look at the results. Maybe time to admit he knows a little more than you give him credit for. His record (departures aside) speaks for itself.

[paulwoods13]

The extra FB is intended, I assume, to provide special-teams help since so many LBs are out of action. I'm wondering if we might see some five d-linemen packages, with someone dropping back into coverage.

Gonna be a heavy load for DJ Foster, with no backup RB dressed. Maybe Pellerin sees a play or two there. Or maybe we go to some six-receiver sets, or five plus Cross.

Interesting to see that Trevon Tate is back on our practice roster after picking up a game cheque (and starting) for Ottawa on an emergency basis last week. Wonder if he has any useful info about RBs' schemes and play calls.

Caleb Evans had a very impressive debut for Ott last week, but he showed a tendency to run very quickly if his first receiver option was not open. We need to lock guys down short and mid-range, and keep him in the pocket.

[OV Argo]

Feel free to call me a genius at any time. :)


Maybe; i might wait till game time or after the full game to declare that though; CFL team listed depth charts are known to be inaccurate to out to lunch when it comes to actual playing time.

[Wobbler]

Feel free to call me a genius at any time. :)
I'm glad you were right about Cassar. I share Will's concern (and if forced to predict, would have suggested McCoil in the middle and Cliett or Mencer at WILL), but in retrospect this an ideal opportunity to see what JC can do. Evans is a wild card, but shutting down Flanders shouldn't be a problem.

[Wobbler]

I just noticed that Ottawa has started five different guys at left tackle in the last five games (including tomorrow). We get Chris Ferguson, the 27th pick in this year's Global draft. Interesting!

[Shatto]

Initially, I was a little surprised at the lack of experienced depth at LB. However, with DE's Feeney, Ray and Mercer, the team has 3 players with LB speed and coverage experience. Jones may well have some creative schemes for the defense both in pressuring the QB and pass coverage.

[primetime31]

I would expect that Jones will try to confuse Caleb Evans and show him multiple coverage schemes. As long as they don't let him run at will, then the defense should be fine. Looking for the right side of the defensive line (Feeney, Law and Robbie Smith) to have lots of fun against a first time starter in Christopher Ferguson for the Redblacks.

[ArgoRavi]

Charleston Hughes is the scratch tonight.

[Wobbler]

Where did you find that, Ravi? I haven't been able to figure out who's scratched even once this year.

[jerrym]

Impressed by Evans speed on his first rush.

[jerrym]

Great hit by Jamal Peters on RJ Harris to separate him from the ball.

[Mocha]

Nice shout out for Year of the Rocket, there.

[Mocha]

Ottawa's D is really stepping up . . . or is the Argos' offense just playing poorly?

[jerrym]

Good blocked punt by Pellerin when Ottawa missed taking the inside rusher.

[dmont]

Our linebackers are $hit. Their running QB and dump passes are killing us.

[jerrym]

Ottawa's D is really stepping up . . . or is the Argos' offense just playing poorly?

IMO it's both.

[Mocha]

IMO it's both.

Time for a QB switch in the 2nd half?

Both guys seem hit or miss as starters, but look good as replacements.


Edit: Right, Arbuckle can't come in and look good as a replacement when he's not dressed for the game.

[OV Argo]

Hmmm; really expected the Argos to pound this weak Ottawa team with a rookie QB; but Evans is looking really sharp for a young QB; AND, the Argos offence is dumb as $hite. Too bad the Argos didn't need to call in some offensive play-calling help instead of needing Jones to run the D. ZERO points by the offence in the 1st half vs. an average at best Ottawa defence = terrrible.

Crowd size? - is there even 5K there ?

[jerrym]

It looks like Shane Ray, the former NFL first rounder, pulled a hamstring in his first game back since the season opener.

[OV Argo]

Lots of interesting stuff on the chart. Cassar does indeed get the start at MIKE, and the linebacking corps looks light. If I was Ottawa I wouldn't expect to be shown much 3-4 in this game.

Pretty much everyone healthy is dressing on the DL, but they've chosen to feature Feeney and Ray on the ends. Interesting.

Blake returns but he's starting at LG, pushing Shane Richards to RG, and Nicastro keeps his job at center. Looks like a good group and I assume that Shatto is pleased.


Ummm, no; haven't seen Cassar on the field once on D; Hoyte is an OLB type playing MLB (but still a Canadian rookie) - has made a couple of nice stops.

[Wobbler]

Nor have I, and I'd love to hear an explanation for why Cassar isn't playing.

[dmont]

Oline playing like $hit now.

[Wobbler]

The Argos may not be a very good football team, but they look like a terrific flukeball team!

[jerrym]

Foster's TD once again shows his versatility as RB/WR/KR. I love what he does for the backfield.

Evans make a rookie mistake finally on the interception.

Argos winning now with playing consistently well.

[jerrym]

Another Evans rookie mistake - another Argo TD!

[OV Argo]

Nor have I, and I'd love to hear an explanation for why Cassar isn't playing.

??? - just because the often wrong depth chart said he would be starting?; he's a rookie Canadian who hasn't played at all this year; at least Hoyte had built up some playing time experience; if Cassar was a rookie import MLB and the ratio allowed it, he would probably be playing.

[ArgoGabe22]

Tuned in late but Marshall Ferguson was great to bring up CFL talk on radio, blogs, Twitter, etc. Not a huge fan of him on the broadcast. Very low energy and boring tbh

[dmont]

How are we supposed to analyze after a game like that? I have no idea what I just saw.

First half was concerning. I didnt think the Oline was protecting very well. Macbeth couldn't get anything going. The defense kept leaving the middle of the field wide open. Where were the linebackers protecting against the run? It seemed like the ottawa oline was doing just enough to keep our dline off Evan's, and Evan's would have enough time for an 8 yard run or a short dump pass. Did not like that. To be dow. At the half was concerning.

Is it just me, or does Macbeth always break our hearts? After a good game against montreal, everyone was thinking QB controversy. But he struggles when it comes to stringing good games together. He had one good drive in the second half, a lot of which was Foster running like a beast. Great pass to Jean pierre, but I'm still eager to have Arbuckle back.

As I said, Foster is a beast. Love that guy. He shouldn't be the only RB, though. Needs to be spelled. Get oullette in there if white isnt ready to go.

Argos still manage to be disciplined at home. Very important for the win.

Second half was insane. No way to say who was playing well because so many crazy things kept happening. Cordarro law seemed very important. I liked the look of nevis in there, but I'm not good enough at football to know how big an impact he was making. Seemed like he was getting doubled. Chris Edward's has a mouth on him, and he plays with an edge, but he gets results.

Two in a row! Woohoo!

[OV Argo]

Tuned in late but Marshall Ferguson was great to bring up CFL talk on radio, blogs, Twitter, etc. Not a huge fan of him on the broadcast. Very low energy and boring tbh

Disagree; big-time; I can't stand Ferguson's cliches, over-reach and dumb comments when he gets to write on the CFL site; but as a PBP guy he is quite solid and well spoken; if we never hear Rod Black again and get to hear Ferguson instead, it would be very good IMO.

[OV Argo]

As far as Foster getting tired and maybe needing a rest and no back-up this game; it's too bad Dinwiddie and co. don't grasp that Dion Pellerin is a big, capable powerback as demonstrated by his play in Canadian college ball; oh well - at least he is making an impact on STs.

[Will]

I was, too, concerned in the first half. It seemed like MBT was starting nicely and then the turnover on downs and the failure to make the 2nd and short kind of took the wind out of the sails on the offense for the rest of that half. The blocked punt TD woke them up I suppose. The Ottawa QB showed a ton of poise in the first half mind you. Coach Jones made some solid adjustments in the 3rd quarter and the results speak for themselves.

[Shatto]

An interesting game. D did not allow any TD's and consistently put pressure on Evans in the 2nd half. OL had a very poor first half.

Losing our long snapper, Reinhart, late in the game is a worry. Hoyte stepped in and did a competent job but lacked Reinhart's tight spirals. Reinhart seemed to be in considerable pain with a hand/wrist type injury.

[jerrym]

Evans made some typical rookie mistakes but he shows promise if he can learn from his mistakes. I did not think MBT played well. After you subtract Foster's 63 yard screen pass that started behind the line of scrimmage MBT had only 118 yards passing, but he did a decent job of managing the game to avoid mistakes by running a conservative offence once the Argos had a large lead thanks to the interceptions for TDs.

[ArgoFan1]

That celebration of the 1991 team was the most pathetic thing I have seen ever. All they did was pan across the boxes with the players from afar. Not one close up, and I had to look fast to recognize anyone there. The very least they could have done was to announce the name of each player that was there and let them hear some applause. We had no clue who was there, and for all we know, there could have been just the three or four that we saw long enough to recognize and the rest of them just anyone off the street. This organization needs to learn a lot about celebrating its past. But then again, this is the Leaf organization, and they are not used to celebrating past champions.

[Argo57]

That celebration of the 1991 team was the most pathetic thing I have seen ever. All they did was pan across the boxes with the players from afar. Not one close up, and I had to look fast to recognize anyone there. The very least they could have done was to announce the name of each player that was there and let them hear some applause. We had no clue who was there, and for all we know, there could have been just the three or four that we saw long enough to recognize and the rest of them just anyone off the street. This organization needs to learn a lot about celebrating its past. But then again, this is the Leaf organization, and they are not used to celebrating past champions.

I thought they would at least introduce each player and bring them out on the field at halftime (like they did with the 1983 team), but nothing.
When you hype the game as a celebration of the 1991 Grey Cup Championship you may want to actually do something beyond a few video clips during the game.

[Will]

Argos had another punt blocked, and Ottawa also took a roughing the kicker penalty which means they got through to Bede a second time.

[cfl-cis fan]

Argos had another punt blocked, and Ottawa also took a roughing the kicker penalty which means they got through to Bede a second time.

Special teams needs some roster consistency. You can not keep expecting the personal protectors to handle 2 some time 3 guys coming through. This is on the guys up front and you can not keep changing this and not expect bad results sometimes.

[CrazyCanuck89]

Liked what I saw from Hoyte, you guys may have found a gem in the fourth round.

[Will]

I thought they would at least introduce each player and bring them out on the field at halftime (like they did with the 1983 team), but nothing.
When you hype the game as a celebration of the 1991 Grey Cup Championship you may want to actually do something beyond a few video clips during the game.

It is my understanding that COVID prevented them from doing something more substantive.

[Will]

Of concern is Jake Reinhart's injury. You obviously don't f*** with the long snapper nor is it easy to simply find out out of thin air.

[shayman]

It is my understanding that COVID prevented them from doing something more substantive.

When they showed the scene of the box where the players were, I looked around from my seat and honestly couldn't tell where it was. That was awkwardly done. We all wanted to cheer but couldn't figure out where to look. (I finally figured out that a lot of the in game things, like the national anthem, are done from the plateau in the northwest corner of the stadium, but when they honoured the Canadian Forces member I couldn't spot where that was either.) Wish they could figure out a way to use the scoreboard and the long zipper display running the length of the grandstand to tell us where to look once in a while.

Even the welcome return of (a much smaller) Argos A-Team had them off in a corner with very little visibility.

It must be COVID preventing them from doing this on the field, although there seems to be no problem having the standard halftime divot-replacement show.

things are inching back towards normal, though. just wish it would move faster. and that more people would come.

[paulwoods13]

I did not think MBT played well. After you subtract Foster's 63 yard screen pass that started behind the line of scrimmage MBT had only 118 yards passing, but he did a decent job of managing the game to avoid mistakes by running a conservative offence once the Argos had a large lead thanks to the interceptions for TDs.


Is it just me, or does Macbeth always break our hearts? After a good game against montreal, everyone was thinking QB controversy. But he struggles when it comes to stringing good games together. He had one good drive in the second half, a lot of which was Foster running like a beast. Great pass to Jean pierre, but I'm still eager to have Arbuckle back.

Does anyone else see the irony here? When MBT was leading the league in TD passes, some fans groused that it was all due to "garbage time" stats, and the real indicator of his worth was the team's terrible won-lost record. Now, when he is 3-1 as a starter (a record surpassed this season by just one other QB in the league), some fans find other stuff to grouse about.

The guy threw only 21 passes all game. He completed 71% of them for an average gain of 8.6 yards per attempt. He threw two more TDs, giving him seven in four starts plus brief mopup duty in a fifth game. He turned the ball over for the first time all year. After his team got out to 26-point lead, he handed the ball off 11 times and attempted just three passes. That's what you are supposed to do when winning in "garbage time."

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I am very enticed by the potential of Arbuckle, and want him to get healthy enough that the coach can choose how to deploy his QBs. But the lack of appreciation for what MBT brings to the table really annoys me.

[AngeloV]

He turned the ball over for the first time all year.

While officially in the stats as an INT, I personally don't think a pick on a conversion attempt should be counted against a QB's stats. It's not like they get a TD added if they complete the pass for 2.

MBT is such an easy target for people. Clearly nobody knows who is to blame whenever there is an incompletion, but Gittens didn't make the correct sight adjustment on one of them. There was a guy in the next section over from me wearing a Don Moen jersey that was giving it to him after each incompletion. After the Jeanpierre TD, I waited for the noise to calm down, and then I just started yelling "way to go MBT. We love you. Some people have no clue what they are talking about."

So irritating to hear "fans" yell at your players when you are actually winning. Ridiculous IMO.

Also no idea how MBT broke our hearts in a 35-16 victory.

[argolio]

From some of these comments, I get the impression that defence and special teams are not really part of football and we actually lost this game.
https://i.imgflip.com/36n7t4.jpg

[REAL]

Special teams needs some roster consistency. You can not keep expecting the personal protectors to handle 2 some time 3 guys coming through. This is on the guys up front and you can not keep changing this and not expect bad results sometimes.

Thinking Xs and Argos should ask the special teams coach about the 2 blocks ( 1 for and 1 against) rather than speculate and ....

[AngeloV]

Thinking Xs and Argos should ask the special teams coach about the 2 blocks ( 1 for and 1 against) rather than speculate and ....

You know how it goes with some posters. Defend all Canadian players even if nobody is blaming them.

[Will]

What is it about McLeod Bethel-Thompson that pisses other people off?

[AngeloV]

What is it about McLeod Bethel-Thompson that pisses other people off?

I think people look at the last 2 years of 4-14 and let's face it, always easiest to blame the QB. The team was bad. That's why they lost. Not because of him. The team is better this year (coaching and talent wise) and the team is 3-1 with him as their starter, only loss coming in a place that is incredibly hard to win (nobody has done it this year). But some just can't let go of the 4-14 seasons which were not his fault.

[jerrym]

I did not think MBT played well. After you subtract Foster's 63 yard screen pass that started behind the line of scrimmage MBT had only 118 yards passing, but he did a decent job of managing the game to avoid mistakes by running a conservative offence once the Argos had a large lead thanks to the interceptions for TDs.


Does anyone else see the irony here? When MBT was leading the league in TD passes, some fans groused that it was all due to "garbage time" stats, and the real indicator of his worth was the team's terrible won-lost record. Now, when he is 3-1 as a starter (a record surpassed this season by just one other QB in the league), some fans find other stuff to grouse about.

The guy threw only 21 passes all game. He completed 71% of them for an average gain of 8.6 yards per attempt. He threw two more TDs, giving him seven in four starts plus brief mopup duty in a fifth game. He turned the ball over for the first time all year. After his team got out to 26-point lead, he handed the ball off 11 times and attempted just three passes. That's what you are supposed to do when winning in "garbage time."

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I am very enticed by the potential of Arbuckle, and want him to get healthy enough that the coach can choose how to deploy his QBs. But the lack of appreciation for what MBT brings to the table really annoys me.


What is it about McLeod Bethel-Thompson that pisses other people off?

I didn't say I was pissed off with MBT. I said I didn't think he played well and I acknowledged that he did a decent job of managing the game conservatively with a large lead. I said at the start of the season that I still had some reservations about MBT, which does not mean I thought he was terrible or even mediocre. I thought he played well in his last game. There was a long let-down after a good start when MBT seemed off not only to my eyes but to Duane Ford's and Ferguson. I have been far from MBT's worse critic. He then managed the game with a large lead in my view and I acknowledged that in my post. Some people here refuse to accept that others don't see things their way and get defensive about any criticism of MBT.

[OV Argo]

I didn't say I was pissed off with MBT. I said I didn't not think he played well and I acknowledged that he did a decent job of managing the game conservatively with a large lead. I said at the start of the season that I still had some reservations about MBT, which does not mean I thought he was terrible or even mediocre. I thought he played well in his last game. There was a long let-down after a good start when MBT seemed off not only to my eyes but to Duane Ford's and Ferguson. I have been far from MBT's worse critic. He then managed the game with a large lead in my view and I acknowledged that in my post. Some people here refuse to accept that others don't see things their way and get defensive about any criticism of MBT.

Bang-on jerry; to each his own views of the plays, players, team. Some do get all bent out of shape when they read an opinion they don't like - a "how dare you think that" attitude; why can't they just reply with their own take on things to present a different view or angle ?

[OV Argo]

Liked what I saw from Hoyte, you guys may have found a gem in the fourth round.


Hoyte was on no media or fan forum (that i noticed) radar at the time of the last draft; same for Schaffer-Baker who has broken out at receiver for the Riders.

[RB957]

What is it about McLeod Bethel-Thompson that pisses other people off?




I didn't say I was pissed off with MBT. I said I didn't not think he played well and I acknowledged that he did a decent job of managing the game conservatively with a large lead. I said at the start of the season that I still had some reservations about MBT, which does not mean I thought he was terrible or even mediocre. I thought he played well in his last game. There was a long let-down after a good start when MBT seemed off not only to my eyes but to Duane Ford's and Ferguson. I have been far from MBT's worse critic. He then managed the game with a large lead in my view and I acknowledged that in my post. Some people here refuse to accept that others don't see things their way and get defensive about any criticism of MBT.

I agree with JerryM and to be clear, I for one am not "pissed off" with MBT. I just think that he is not the guy the Argos should be heavily investing in as their #1 QB. He had a very solid outing against Montreal, but in my opinion, a pedestrian effort last night. And honestly, that is how it seems to go with him. He looks great, then makes some awful throws and decisions. And I know you can say this can happen to any player, but MBT is now in his thirties... supposedly his "prime". He has played with what, 9 different teams in 4 different leagues. It isn't getting any better, it just is what it is. I am thrilled we have him because I see him as probably the best QB who is not a starter and we need to have a capable backup. But he is not "the guy", as far as I am concerned. For those who say that the two 4 - 14 seasons were not all his fault, I agree. But by the same token, the fact we are 3 - 1 this year with him starting is because of him either. What if we had used the time in those losing years to allow a younger QB to get all those reps? Would we be in a better position today, with a more solid future? Possibly. A big issue is that in the past, because of the instability with ownership, coaches trying to preserve their jobs etc., there was not a willingness or the luxury to allow players to grow. We were fortunate to win two Grey Cups in the last 10 years, but both those teams had .500 records and could never sustain anything going forward. Like I have said before, the Argos have signed and begun to develop multiple young QB's who then leave and achieve success with other teams. We need this to stop. As long as Nick Arbuckle is injured then MBT should be the starter. But as soon as Arbuckle is healthy, he should be the #1. If he is faltering, then you can always pull him, because we are still in the thick of things to win the division, but he needs to start.

[paulwoods13]

I didn't say I was pissed off with MBT. I said I didn't think he played well and I acknowledged that he did a decent job of managing the game conservatively with a large lead. I said at the start of the season that I still had some reservations about MBT, which does not mean I thought he was terrible or even mediocre. I thought he played well in his last game. There was a long let-down after a good start when MBT seemed off not only to my eyes but to Duane Ford's and Ferguson. I have been far from MBT's worse critic. He then managed the game with a large lead in my view and I acknowledged that in my post. Some people here refuse to accept that others don't see things their way and get defensive about any criticism of MBT.

Nobody said you were pissed off at MBT. It seems to me the question "why do people get pissed off at MBT?" was asked in response to my suggestion that, even when he does what people were mad about him not doing ("winning," not that I personally ascribe wins to QBs), people still find fault. My post expressing annoyance at the latest criticisms against him (classic damned-if-he-do/damned-if-he-don't, IMO), which seems to have sparked the "pissed off" question, was a response to two separate posts, not just yours. The other post was much stronger in its criticism than your "I didn't think he played well/he had low yardage/but he did manage the lead." But both of you did find fault with him. And I continue to find it ironic that some of the things he was criticized for in the past -- not "winning," turning the ball over, racking up most of his passing yards and TDs in "garbage time" -- don't seem to matter to some people now that he's doing almost the exact opposite. If you feel that viewpoint reflects me (or anyone else, for that matter) being defensive over criticism, so be it. Unanimity about how good MBT is or what constitutes adequate (or stellar) performance by him is clearly not to be found here; nor would I expect it to be.

[Shatto]

MBT did not have a good first half but the way the OL played, I'm not sure any QB would have looked vey good. The main thing is the team won and is now the division leader. If anyone had suggested the team would be 5-3 most of us would be delighted. The next game in Hamilton will be a real test.

[ArgoRavi]

Where did you find that, Ravi? I haven't been able to figure out who's scratched even once this year.

Matthew Scianetti mentioned it on TSN's pregame show.

[ArgoRavi]

Really can't see Jones, if he has full influence now, starting a rookie Canadian like Cassar at MLB; Jones likes to demonstrate what a genius he is by having players line-up all over the place or out of position. McCoil could line-up at MLB, and Dexter should be on the field on D at all times IMO.

While it wasn't Cassar, Jones did indeed start a rookie Canadian at MLB.

[OV Argo]

While it wasn't Cassar, Jones did indeed start a rookie Canadian at MLB.

Yep - i mentioned that here already.

[Wobbler]

Matthew Scianetti mentioned it on TSN's pregame show.
Thank you. Is it always mentioned in the pregame (which I am rarely able to catch), or was it because the choice of Hughes makes it eyebrow-raising? In any case, I wish the team would tweet the name of the scratch or communicate it in another way.

[AngeloV]

I think people need to listen to Dinwiddie’s post game presser. He was pissed about a lot of players in offence with the exception of MBT, Daniels. Collins and DJ. Sounds like tons of missed assignments. Again, as I have said QB is always the east target, but so much goes on that people have no idea about.

[Wobbler]

Thanks for the heads-up, Angelo. That session (https://www.argonauts.ca/2021/10/06/ryan-dinwiddie-post-game-october-6-2021/) was interesting.

Dinwiddie sounds like an offensive coordinator annoyed with most of his offense, but pleased that the rest of the team performed well somehow.

[argolio]

MBT did not have a good first half but the way the OL played, I'm not sure any QB would have looked vey good. The main thing is the team won and is now the division leader. If anyone had suggested the team would be 5-3 most of us would be delighted. The next game in Hamilton will be a real test.
Good point. As usual, most people focus on QB and the skill positions, overlooking that their D got the better of our o-line. 72 yards from 22 rushes is proof of that. Thankfully, our special teams and especially our D came up big.

[Rich]

Dinwiddie said MBT played “OK”, not exactly a ringing endorsement, but I agree: MBT was OK. Not very good, but adequate. He was OK. I thought he was a bit off all night, I can think of a couple of passes that Collins had to make big reaching catches behind him to save the QB. Even the short little wide open screen that turned into Foster’s TD was almost underthrown.

It’s no big deal, we won the game, and that’s great. I think MBT stole us the win against Montreal, and the defence stole the game last night. But I think that anyone who says that MBT had a good game last night is blinded by loyalty to the guy.

[Rich]

While it wasn't Cassar, Jones did indeed start a rookie Canadian at MLB.

Jones was running a revolving-door defence, everybody gets in, at one point I saw Colquoun line up at OLB.

[ArgoRavi]

Thank you. Is it always mentioned in the pregame (which I am rarely able to catch), or was it because the choice of Hughes makes it eyebrow-raising? In any case, I wish the team would tweet the name of the scratch or communicate it in another way.

It usually isn't mentioned on the pregame show. This may be the first time this year that I can recall it happening.

[OV Argo]

Jones was running a revolving-door defence, everybody gets in, at one point I saw Colquoun line up at OLB.

Didn't see Robbie Smith on D - and IMO he has been about the best Argo DE this season; if you were to base it on plays made & effort / per playing time.

[AngeloV]

Didn't see Robbie Smith on D - and IMO he has been about the best Argo DE this season; if you were to base it on plays made & effort / per playing time.

Of course he has. No bias in that opinion. Because you know exactly what the DC's have asked from their D-line to make an educated opinion on who has been the best. I'm sure you know all the schemes and have gone over all the film to come to that determination.

[OV Argo]

Of course he has. No bias in that opinion. Because you know exactly what the DC's have asked from their D-line to make an educated opinion on who has been the best. I'm sure you know all the schemes and have gone over all the film to come to that determination.


Yep; same way you always come to your conclusion that MBT is perfect and the QB is blame-less.

I just go by what I get to see on the football field; I don't get to watch tape of the game to break things down like a super football genius like Jones (and maybe you too) does.

[AngeloV]

Yep; same way you always come to your conclusion that MBT is perfect and the QB is blame-less.

I just go by what I get to see on the football field; I don't get to watch tape of the game to break things down like a super football genius like Jones (and maybe you too) does.

Yeah, but I waited until I heard what the coach had to say before I chimed in on MBT, because I acknowledge that the coaches know more about each plays result than I do. You as always come to your own conclusion based on what you perceive to be an anti-Canadian sentiment by coaches.

By the way, I see Canadian head coach Mike O-Shea is starting 7 Canadians and only 1 on defence. I guess the GOB's got to him. Can't possibly be because he feels his American talent is better, can it?

[OV Argo]

Yeah, but I waited until I heard what the coach had to say before I chimed in on MBT, because I acknowledge that the coaches know more about each plays result than I do. You as always come to your own conclusion based on what you perceive to be an anti-Canadian sentiment by coaches.

By the way, I see Canadian head coach Mike O-Shea is starting 7 Canadians and only 1 on defence. I guess the GOB's got to him. Can't possibly be because he feels his American talent is better, can it?


No comment on Cassar not starting eh genius ? ;o)

O'Shea is one of my all-time fave football players; he (and GM Walters) was raised in the CFL system; they follow standard CFL operating procedure - meaning import players vastly favored for the most part - or they would probably not have gotten the job or be ridiculed or out of their jobs it in short order if they didn't follow same old ways. Can u imagine giving a Canadian a chance to compete at QB when you have such incredible talent/depth at the position like they do? Na, couldn't do that.

OTOH - they do have a Canadian starting at tailback, as are the 2 back-ups at the position as well; must have pained them some to make such a non-GOB decision there.

And maybe you don't watch other CFL games that the Argos aren\t involved in, but the Bummer defence has been playing a couple of Canadians (Gauthier & Briggs) a lot at LB lately; to go with their one other NI on D (rotation of Thomas & Kongbo on the D-Line) - to get to 7 only need apply. ;o)

[AngeloV]

O'Shea is one of my all-time fave football players; he (and GM Walters) was raised in the CFL system; they follow standard CFL operating procedure - meaning import players vastly favored for the most part - or they would probably not have gotten the job or be ridiculed or out of their jobs it in short order if they didn't follow same old ways.

This is the most ridiculous comment of all. Even for you. I just laugh now when I read this crap. You really think Mike O'Shea doesn't have the character to run his team his way? LMFAO!!!

Cassar didn't start but was replaced by another Canadian rooking in Hoyte. What's the problem there? Briggs and Gautier aren't starters. Briggs started as an injury replacement. To bring up Canadians that get snaps is ridiculous, because I would say that the Argos give more snaps to different Canadians than most if not all teams. Yes the Bombers use Canadian at RB, but so what? The Argos chose to go with with 2 starting Canadian LB's and 2 receivers to start the year. I won't even get into the loophole the Bombers use to get to theri 7th starting Canadian in Wolitarski, but it can be argued that they use less than the minimum 7 true Canadians. But hey, O'shea does it due to peer pressure and to avoid ridicule from the establishment...I can't believe I finished typing that as I was laughing so damn hard.

[OV Argo]

This is the most ridiculous comment of all. Even for you. I just laugh now when I read this crap. You really think Mike O'Shea doesn't have the character to run his team his way? LMFAO!!!

Cassar didn't start but was replaced by another Canadian rooking in Hoyte. What's the problem there? Briggs and Gautier aren't starters. Briggs started as an injury replacement. To bring up Canadians that get snaps is ridiculous, because I would say that the Argos give more snaps to different Canadians than most if not all teams. Yes the Bombers use Canadian at RB, but so what? The Argos chose to go with with 2 starting Canadian LB's and 2 receivers to start the year. I won't even get into the loophole the Bombers use to get to theri 7th starting Canadian in Wolitarski, but it can be argued that they use less than the minimum 7 true Canadians. But hey, O'shea does it due to peer pressure and to avoid ridicule from the establishment...I can't believe I finished typing that as I was laughing so damn hard.


You might want to learn a bit more about CFL/Argo history - ever heard of Teddy Morris ?

O'Shea & Walters weren\t around when Russ Jackson was the best QB by far in the CFL; they were't around when Greg Vavra was given a shot to compete for the starting QB job for the Stamps out of Canadian college ball. The Bummer lost Strevler to the NFL and had serious need for QB competition in TC; do you think they would have given a Russ Jackson out of McMaster or a Vavra out of the Dinos a chance to compete in TC? They certainly had no interest in Vanier/Hec winning QB Adam Sinagra who was available - gee, I wonder why?

GOB standard procedure is to recruit as many imports as possible in TC to compete for jobs at a wide variety of positions; it also follows the concept that CFL rosters always feature the max. number of imports on the team and minimum number of Canadians; and the GOBs usually like to think 7 only starting Canadians (though yes, a bunch more teams now are working back-up Canadian players into the games in situations). O'Shea might well be quite fine with the standard CFL operating procedure he was raised on - he (again with GM Walters input) follows it. Good for him if he is down with standard CFL GOB ways (and i give him congrats on bringing the GC to the Peg)

[ArgoZ]

The creation of the MBT controversy is people are not honest with themselves. Once you realize or accept that MBT is who he is, a 33 year old journeyman, who’s played for multiple teams and will never be a true superstar, then life is good. He did exactly what you want your backup QB to do. Manage the game and get the win. I was happy with his performance. You almost always get a solid, sometimes pedestrian performance from MBT, and that’s GREAT! It’s exactly why he’s great to have. If you remember all his games though, it’s a crazy anomaly that he usually performs his best on short notice (last week), not when he gets all the snaps and is the starter (like this week). Whether it’s off the bench or filling in for a late scratch. Now that I think about it, that is historically proven backup QB stuff right there.

On to the game. Can any of you recall an Argos team so unconfident in short yardage? They are really bad at it, in the CFL where you almost get a free yard!. James Franklin was one of our worst starters, but man call him back for the QB sneak, this is pathetic.
Blocked punts are at a ridiculous, non professional level. Cross keeps getting singled out, can’t be all him. He rarely plays any offence now, I wouldn’t be surprised this is his last season as an Argonaut.

A defence that can score is deadly. I fell that might be only way they win in Hamilton. Oakman is a force and he’s playing DT, that’s unbelievable how quickly he’s adapted to that position and the CFL.

[AngeloV]

You might want to learn a bit more about CFL/Argo history - ever heard of Teddy Morris ?

O'Shea & Walters weren\t around when Russ Jackson was the best QB by far in the CFL; they were't around when Greg Vavra was given a shot to compete for the starting QB job for the Stamps out of Canadian college ball. The Bummer lost Strevler to the NFL and had serious need for QB competition in TC; do you think they would have given a Russ Jackson out of McMaster or a Vavra out of the Dinos a chance to compete in TC? They certainly had no interest in Vanier/Hec winning QB Adam Sinagra who was available - gee, I wonder why?

GOB standard procedure is to recruit as many imports as possible in TC to compete for jobs at a wide variety of positions; it also follows the concept that CFL rosters always feature the max. number of imports on the team and minimum number of Canadians; and the GOBs usually like to think 7 only starting Canadians (though yes, a bunch more teams now are working back-up Canadian players into the games in situations). O'Shea might well be quite fine with the standard CFL operating procedure he was raised on - he (again with GM Walters input) follows it. Good for him if he is down with standard CFL GOB ways (and i give him congrats on bringing the GC to the Peg)

And in 1978 gas was 19 cents a litre.

[OV Argo]

And in 1978 gas was 19 cents a litre.

And there was no internet and football fan forums to hear all this football wisdom. ;o)

I think I still got to buy The Canadian Football News then though.

[AngeloV]

On to the game. Can any of you recall an Argos team so unconfident in short yardage? They are really bad at it, in the CFL where you almost get a free yard!.

I think teams need to look at what the Argos did with Adam Rita as OC under Matthews as well as when he was HC. Argos would spread everyone out and if the D didn't respect it, would have an easy WR screen. If they did respect it, the QB had tons of room to pick his hole. It makes no sense to me to crowd the 11 other players so close together and allow the D crowd the box if you are going to sneak it. I would always have my receivers split out in short yardage.

[Wobbler]

It usually isn't mentioned on the pregame show. This may be the first time this year that I can recall it happening.
Thanks, Ravi.

[Will]

It usually isn't mentioned on the pregame show. This may be the first time this year that I can recall it happening.

I noted that Hughes was listed well down the depth chart anyhow.

[ArgoRavi]

I think teams need to look at what the Argos did with Adam Rita as OC under Matthews as well as when he was HC. Argos would spread everyone out and if the D didn't respect it, would have an easy WR screen. If they did respect it, the QB had tons of room to pick his hole. It makes no sense to me to crowd the 11 other players so close together and allow the D crowd the box if you are going to sneak it. I would always have my receivers split out in short yardage.

This has been one of my pet peeves for years. Matt Dunigan has often complained about stacking the box also.