Anyone Still Think MLSE ever had a business plan for the Argos?

[Scooter McCray]

https://3downnation.com/2022/06/05/mlse-chairman-larry-tanenbaum-not-happy-with-structure-of-cfl/

This is frustrating and disappointing. The off field decisions around our team have been underwhelming, and yet there is an expectation the league and the team should have appreciated in value through a two year pandemic.
MLSE should be the leading ownership group of the CFL. On the vanguard of creating value, building markets and taking the league into the future.

Instead they sit on their hands and watch other owners and leaders with vision do their heavy lifting...Amar Doman, Victor Cui, OSEG, Bob Young, and the strong community groups in Saskatchewan and Winnipeg.

They can see the potential in these other markets. MLSE are the wealthiest owners in the league by far, and are in majority owned by the largest media entities in Canada.

To quote Joe Biden....What are we doing?

Make Pinball President, give him a budget, and get out of the way. In 5 years you will have value.

[AngeloV]

It is very frustrating. Just shut up and stop devaluing your own product. I mean, did he really expect the valuation of a CFL team to get into the hundreds of millions?

[argolio]

That's the double-edged sword of MLSE ownership. The Argos will always be, at best, 3rd behind the Leafs and Raptors but can also count on consistent funding thanks to MLSE's stable ownership, something the Argos have not always had over the last 40 years.

Tanenbaum is also primarily a talking head for MLSE. Bell and Rogers hold the real power. If this is all just about franchise evaluation for them, then I'm not sure where this goes long-term.

[paulwoods13]

There is no doubt, and there has never been any doubt, that MLSE is in the sports business for one primary purpose: to grow enterprise value. Operating profits (and losses) are of vastly lower importance. Its three other major league properties have all grown significantly in value over the duration of MLSE's ownership. The Argos have not. They likely could not be sold today even for the $5 million the team supposedly fetched in 1988 and 1991 (although we now know that both of those sales figures were essentially fictional).

A strong case can be made that in its five years of ownership, MLSE has done little (if anything) to attempt to grow the franchise value. And a strong case can also be made that ownership failures/neglect/stupidity over the preceding 35 years were also a massively important contributor to this awful state of affairs.

As to what could be done to reverse this situation, who the hell knows at this point? A dedicated Argo president with a mandate from MLSE to grow the Argos brand (and a budget to make that happen) certainly could not hurt, but there is no guarantee that even that would make a difference.

[Will]

There is no doubt, and there has never been any doubt, that MLSE is in the sports business for one primary purpose: to grow enterprise value. Operating profits (and losses) are of vastly lower importance. Its three other major league properties have all grown significantly in value over the duration of MLSE's ownership. The Argos have not. They likely could not be sold today even for the $5 million the team supposedly fetched in 1988 and 1991 (although we now know that both of those sales figures were essentially fictional).

A strong case can be made that in its five years of ownership, MLSE has done little (if anything) to attempt to grow the franchise value. And a strong case can also be made that ownership failures/neglect/stupidity over the preceding 35 years were also a massively important contributor to this awful state of affairs.

As to what could be done to reverse this situation, who the hell knows at this point? A dedicated Argo president with a mandate from MLSE to grow the Argos brand (and a budget to make that happen) certainly could not hurt, but there is no guarantee that even that would make a difference.

As Mike & The Mechanics once sang: All the Argos need is a miracle!​

[Scooter McCray]

There is no doubt, and there has never been any doubt, that MLSE is in the sports business for one primary purpose: to grow enterprise value. Operating profits (and losses) are of vastly lower importance. Its three other major league properties have all grown significantly in value over the duration of MLSE's ownership. The Argos have not. They likely could not be sold today even for the $5 million the team supposedly fetched in 1988 and 1991 (although we now know that both of those sales figures were essentially fictional).

A strong case can be made that in its five years of ownership, MLSE has done little (if anything) to attempt to grow the franchise value. And a strong case can also be made that ownership failures/neglect/stupidity over the preceding 35 years were also a massively important contributor to this awful state of affairs.

As to what could be done to reverse this situation, who the hell knows at this point? A dedicated Argo president with a mandate from MLSE to grow the Argos brand (and a budget to make that happen) certainly could not hurt, but there is no guarantee that even that would make a difference.
No guarantee. But we all want to see somebody try. It will be a damn shame if nobody tried and the team disappears and the hardcore Argo fans like us are left with what could have been. Because we've caught brief glimpses of fleeting success; 1991, 2004, 100th GC game in 2012, Eastern Final 2017 where we all thought if they can just keep the momentum up they will become relevant again. Rarely was there that perfect combination of on field success with strong visionary ownership, and that combination never lasted. When MLSE bought them I thought finally an owner with staying power and a sports media juggernaut. They're in for the long haul and they will rebuild a fanbase for this historical franchise. Because there is so much that needs to be installed; community connections, minor football connections, educational connections beyond the team itself year to year.
MLSE seem to relied upon an old model. Build a winner and people will come. That works for teams that still have profile and coverage-Blue Jay's, Raptors, Leafs. It does not work for the Argos otherwise Doug Flutie would have sold out SkyDome every game. It takes more than that initially to rebuild your base and relevance. Look at last year. First place team. The media and city got behind them for the East Final-One game and then a long off-season out of sight and out of mind again. The leadership of this team need to engage this marketplace 12 months a year and overtime in season for 5-10 years to rebuild. That requires passion and commitment.
The price tag for an NFL team and stadium is now likely $7 Billion combined. They only take individual owners. A team in Toronto will put the CFL in jeopardy. It's not happening anytime soon.
MLSE and Larry Tannenbaum you have 5-10 years. What you need in terms of finances to make this work is what you spend on a couple of players on your hockey or basketball team. Give it a shot. You have a chance to build something special in Toronto and in Canada. Don't quit. And you have a guy in Michael Clemons who embodies everything you want the Argos and the CFL to be. Let him be the face of this team's rebirth. He is a champion in everything he does: a player, a coach, a father, a businessman and most importantly a person. Let him be one as a President.

[Argo57]

No guarantee. But we all want to see somebody try. It will be a damn shame if nobody tried and the team disappears and the hardcore Argo fans like us are left with what could have been. Because we've caught brief glimpses of fleeting success; 1991, 2004, 100th GC game in 2012, Eastern Final 2017 where we all thought if they can just keep the momentum up they will become relevant again. Rarely was there that perfect combination of on field success with strong visionary ownership, and that combination never lasted. When MLSE bought them I thought finally an owner with staying power and a sports media juggernaut. They're in for the long haul and they will rebuild a fanbase for this historical franchise. Because there is so much that needs to be installed; community connections, minor football connections, educational connections beyond the team itself year to year.
MLSE seem to relied upon an old model. Build a winner and people will come. That works for teams that still have profile and coverage-Blue Jay's, Raptors, Leafs. It does not work for the Argos otherwise Doug Flutie would have sold out SkyDome every game. It takes more than that initially to rebuild your base and relevance. Look at last year. First place team. The media and city got behind them for the East Final-One game and then a long off-season out of sight and out of mind again. The leadership of this team need to engage this marketplace 12 months a year and overtime in season for 5-10 years to rebuild. That requires passion and commitment.
The price tag for an NFL team and stadium is now likely $7 Billion combined. They only take individual owners. A team in Toronto will put the CFL in jeopardy. It's not happening anytime soon.
MLSE and Larry Tannenbaum you have 5-10 years. What you need in terms of finances to make this work is what you spend on a couple of players on your hockey or basketball team. Give it a shot. You have a chance to build something special in Toronto and in Canada. Don't quit. And you have a guy in Michael Clemons who embodies everything you want the Argos and the CFL to be. Let him be the face of this team's rebirth. He is a champion in everything he does: a player, a coach, a father, a businessman and most importantly a person. Let him be one as a President.

Nice post, well thought out and summarized.
The spikes in interest over the years have coincided with the team having success and therefore playing in important games, unfortunately the quality of the product on field has largely sucked following successful seasons which has killed any momentum moving forward.
At this point the survival of this franchise is no sure thing, if MLSE pulls the plug I wonder if there would be any interested buyers willing to take on a long and arduous rebuild.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

At this point the survival of this franchise is no sure thing, if MLSE pulls the plug I wonder if there would be any interested buyers willing to take on a long and arduous rebuild.
There would be interest.The bad part is you would still be dealing with Bell for the next four years.

[Stevoman]

Argos are treated like a tax write off by the owners so it's not fair for the team to be criticized for lack of value.

[ArgoRavi]

There is no doubt, and there has never been any doubt, that MLSE is in the sports business for one primary purpose: to grow enterprise value. Operating profits (and losses) are of vastly lower importance. Its three other major league properties have all grown significantly in value over the duration of MLSE's ownership. The Argos have not. They likely could not be sold today even for the $5 million the team supposedly fetched in 1988 and 1991 (although we now know that both of those sales figures were essentially fictional).

A strong case can be made that in its five years of ownership, MLSE has done little (if anything) to attempt to grow the franchise value. And a strong case can also be made that ownership failures/neglect/stupidity over the preceding 35 years were also a massively important contributor to this awful state of affairs.

As to what could be done to reverse this situation, who the hell knows at this point? A dedicated Argo president with a mandate from MLSE to grow the Argos brand (and a budget to make that happen) certainly could not hurt, but there is no guarantee that even that would make a difference.

Can MLSE at least try and put in equal effort to what they put into Toronto FC? Is that asking too much?

The lack of vision from Tanenbaum and friends has been immensely disappointing, especially when you see the likes of Doman, Cui and Young working their tails off and either expecting success or, in the case of Young, having success.

[Rich]

As to what could be done to reverse this situation, who the hell knows at this point?

Well I think we're all agreed that 5+ seasons of continued excellence -- something this team has never done before in its history -- would at least move the needle a little bit. We're already through season 1!

But as for long-term solutions, Tannenbaum pretty much spelled it out in that article, and I think he's right on. The CFL needs to be totally restructured in order to survive. The community-owned teams need to have a stake in the success of Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. Although Larry can't say it in public, surely he believes the CFL should be structured like MLS, where all player contracts are with the League and all revenues are shared.

This would bring the return of the Marquee Player, IMO the only way the CFL survives going forward. Look, the TFC was invisible in this town until the day Beckham came to town as an opponent. They took off from there. Big names draw interest in Toronto. Period. Just imagine Russell Wilson coming to finish off his career with the Argonauts, Derek Carr in BC and Jared Goff trying to rekindle his career in Montreal. There'd be sellouts across the League, including at BMO.

And if anyone wants to argue that Flutie didn't draw any interest in 96-97, think about how different things are today in terms of media exposure and social media. It's a different world.

[paulwoods13]

Can MLSE at least try and put in equal effort to what they put into Toronto FC? Is that asking too much?


It's not just effort that has been put into TFC, it's money. And based on franchise value, there has been a return (at least on paper) on that investment. Would there be a similar return on a similar investment in the Argos? My sense is that MLSE has concluded that there would not be, in a nine-team league operating only in Canada and with virtually no real revenue growth potential as it is currently constituted. Yes, we would all love to see MLSE really try, and spend accordingly, for 5-10 years to rebuild. It might work. But given that the brand has been abused and made slowly irrelevant over the past 40 years, it also might not work. And if you're the head of MLSE, why would you take that chance?

[ArgoGabe22]

Ever since we cancelled our seasons, the Argos have called us a total of ZERO times about this upcoming season.

[AngeloV]

Ever since we cancelled our seasons, the Argos have called us a total of ZERO times about this upcoming season.

That is brutal.

[AngeloV]

It's not just effort that has been put into TFC, it's money. And based on franchise value, there has been a return (at least on paper) on that investment. Would there be a similar return on a similar investment in the Argos? My sense is that MLSE has concluded that there would not be, in a nine-team league operating only in Canada and with virtually no real revenue growth potential as it is currently constituted. Yes, we would all love to see MLSE really try, and spend accordingly, for 5-10 years to rebuild. It might work. But given that the brand has been abused and made slowly irrelevant over the past 40 years, it also might not work. And if you're the head of MLSE, why would you take that chance?

I will ask again. Did MLSE really think the CFL would possibly be able to have a franchise valuation in the hundreds of millions?

[Scooter McCray]

It's not just effort that has been put into TFC, it's money. And based on franchise value, there has been a return (at least on paper) on that investment. Would there be a similar return on a similar investment in the Argos? My sense is that MLSE has concluded that there would not be, in a nine-team league operating only in Canada and with virtually no real revenue growth potential as it is currently constituted. Yes, we would all love to see MLSE really try, and spend accordingly, for 5-10 years to rebuild. It might work. But given that the brand has been abused and made slowly irrelevant over the past 40 years, it also might not work. And if you're the head of MLSE, why would you take that chance?So what is their rationale for owning the Argos? Small tax write off, philanthropy (keep Argos off deathbed), keep CFL alive for TSN?
If they are committed to the losses to do that they could commit a little more to trying to create value.
If not they should try and find another Amar Doman, Bob Young to sell to. A dedicated President with a dedicated budget (drop in the bucket to them), and they can just watch what happens with very little risk. Value would come. An entire 10 team league firing on all cylinders should be worth $100 million.

[paulwoods13]

I will ask again. Did MLSE really think the CFL would possibly be able to have a franchise valuation in the hundreds of millions?

I'm sure they did not. But they might have thought the value could go above whatever they paid for it.

[AngeloV]

I'm sure they did not. But they might have thought the value could go above whatever they paid for it.

Yeah, they must have thought their brand alone would do it and zero effort would be needed.

[argotom]

How to summarize?
First, I am not sure what Mr. T is saying is incorrect.
Let's face it the return on investment does apply.
So what do we have, a 9 time league becoming very stale that continuously spins its wheels and for every one step potentially forward it takes two back.
Yes the franchise values and overall league does matter......it is not a charity.
Halifax, what the heck happened here with the initial excitement and potential progress is either on hold or died a slow death.
The XFL no matter what you think was also extinguished and we were really never told why or the exact details of the possible merger that may have brought in millions and increased franchise values.
Heck even the lowly NLL is increasing in size every year.
As much as all of us here are die hards, that will not cut it with the next generation.
It is way overdue to think outside the box like the XFL presumably had the potential and so did a new team in Halifax.
With streaming services and the new age, will TSN continue in the mega millions contract with the league.
Unlike previously, I am no longer bullish about the Argos or this mom and pop league.

[paulwoods13]

How to summarize?
First, I am not sure what Mr. T is saying is incorrect.
Let's face it the return on investment does apply.
So what do we have, a 9 time league becoming very stale that continuously spins its wheels and for every one step potentially forward it takes two back.
Yes the franchise values and overall league does matter......it is not a charity.
Halifax, what the heck happened here with the initial excitement and potential progress is either on hold or died a slow death.
The XFL no matter what you think was also extinguished and we were really never told why or the exact details of the possible merger that may have brought in millions and increased franchise values.
Heck even the lowly NLL is increasing in size every year.
As much as all of us here are die hards, that will not cut it with the next generation.
It is way overdue to think outside the box like the XFL presumably had the potential and so did a new team in Halifax.
With streaming services and the new age, will TSN continue in the mega millions contract with the league.
Unlike previously, I am no longer bullish about the Argos or this mom and pop league.

A lot of truth here.

[argolio]

Can MLSE at least try and put in equal effort to what they put into Toronto FC? Is that asking too much?MLS sold MLSE on the idea of soccer infiltrating the American market to the point where MLS would eventually land a big U.S. TV contract, and MLSE is still on board with that. MLSE does not see the same revenue potential with the CFL, and therefore doesn't see the point spending more on the team.

At least that's what I think MLSE believes.


So what is their rationale for owning the Argos? Small tax write off, philanthropy (keep Argos off deathbed), keep CFL alive for TSN?
If they are committed to the losses to do that they could commit a little more to trying to create value.
If not they should try and find another Amar Doman, Bob Young to sell to. A dedicated President with a dedicated budget (drop in the bucket to them), and they can just watch what happens with very little risk. Value would come. An entire 10 team league firing on all cylinders should be worth $100 million.Probably a content play. Bell makes money from the CFL deal and wants to keep a team in Toronto, home of major advertisers and ad agencies.

Finding another owner sounds good in theory, but those people generally want to see some kind of a payoff down the road. If it's not a big jump in TV money, franchise value, or attendance beyond the occasional East final, then what?

[Argofan_1000]

There is no doubt, and there has never been any doubt, that MLSE is in the sports business for one primary purpose: to grow enterprise value. Operating profits (and losses) are of vastly lower importance. Its three other major league properties have all grown significantly in value over the duration of MLSE's ownership. The Argos have not. They likely could not be sold today even for the $5 million the team supposedly fetched in 1988 and 1991 (although we now know that both of those sales figures were essentially fictional).

A strong case can be made that in its five years of ownership, MLSE has done little (if anything) to attempt to grow the franchise value. And a strong case can also be made that ownership failures/neglect/stupidity over the preceding 35 years were also a massively important contributor to this awful state of affairs.

As to what could be done to reverse this situation, who the hell knows at this point? A dedicated Argo president with a mandate from MLSE to grow the Argos brand (and a budget to make that happen) certainly could not hurt, but there is no guarantee that even that would make a difference.

MLSE did nothing to advance value. They got sucked along for the ride because all the other teams are in American Leagues. They are pretty bold to think they had anything to do with value when all the other teams are below the 49th. All the action happened there, not here

[ArgoRavi]

Well I think we're all agreed that 5+ seasons of continued excellence -- something this team has never done before in its history -- would at least move the needle a little bit. We're already through season 1!

But as for long-term solutions, Tannenbaum pretty much spelled it out in that article, and I think he's right on. The CFL needs to be totally restructured in order to survive. The community-owned teams need to have a stake in the success of Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. Although Larry can't say it in public, surely he believes the CFL should be structured like MLS, where all player contracts are with the League and all revenues are shared.

This would bring the return of the Marquee Player, IMO the only way the CFL survives going forward. Look, the TFC was invisible in this town until the day Beckham came to town as an opponent. They took off from there. Big names draw interest in Toronto. Period. Just imagine Russell Wilson coming to finish off his career with the Argonauts, Derek Carr in BC and Jared Goff trying to rekindle his career in Montreal. There'd be sellouts across the League, including at BMO.

And if anyone wants to argue that Flutie didn't draw any interest in 96-97, think about how different things are today in terms of media exposure and social media. It's a different world.

The Argos did get their way as far as reinstating revenue sharing.

[AngeloV]

Must be nice to have an owner that tries.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The lower bowl at BC Place seats 25,500.<br><br>For context, the Lions have only reached the 24,000 attendance mark twice since 2016.<br><br>It's good to finally see some momentum behind this franchise.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BCLions?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BCLions</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFL?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CFL</a> <a href="https://t.co/Xfdf5nqquL">https://t.co/Xfdf5nqquL</a></p>&mdash; John Hodge (@JohnDHodge) <a href="https://twitter.com/JohnDHodge/status/1534298146695700482?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 7, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[ArgoGabe22]

Not being snarky but what has he done so far? Are people just excited at fresh blood?

[R.J]

Sadly, it looks as if their plan was "Hey, we're MLSE, so long as we own it, move them to BMO, and tell the CFL what to do, we'll make money, because well, we're MLSE".

As a fan, I have been greatly disappointed with MLS&E's stewardship, they just don't seem to give a rat's behind. While I'm sure the Argonauts employees are working hard to make things work, the top brass lacking an overall plan, and by the looks of it lacking even faith that the Argos can work is disheartening.

[AngeloV]

Not being snarky but what has he done so far? Are people just excited at fresh blood?

Probably need to speak to Lions ticket holders or former ticket holders. We have no idea what promotion is going on in Vancouver, but it must be more than what we are seeing in Toronto. You yourself said that the Argos have not contacted you since you cancelled your subscription. That speaks volumes to effort or lack there of.

[Mocha]

Not being snarky but what has he done so far? Are people just excited at fresh blood?

He seems to do a lot of interviews, in which he says a lot of the right things in the vein of Bob Young. He is promoting the home opener with some enthusiasm, even booking OneRepublic to perform. He's renogiated some conditions with Pavco, the company that operates BC Place, so there will be some more affordable options on the menu for families. He's done outreach programs/camps with kids and particularly with indigenous kids. I think the Lions always ran such programs, but I've heard much more about them since Doman took over.

[argotom]

He seems to do a lot of interviews, in which he says a lot of the right things in the vein of Bob Young. He is promoting the home opener with some enthusiasm, even booking OneRepublic to perform. He's renogiated some conditions with Pavco, the company that operates BC Place, so there will be some more affordable options on the menu for families. He's done outreach programs/camps with kids and particularly with indigenous kids. I think the Lions always ran such programs, but I've heard much more about them since Doman took over.

Not to mention they appear to have an outstanding young Canadian QB tandem, O'Connor who should have been still with us challenging for first team reps. Don't know what happened there.

[gilthethrill]

Not to mention they appear to have an outstanding young Canadian QB tandem, O'Connor who should have been still with us challenging for first team reps. Don't know what happened there.

From what I understand the Argos wanted MOC to stay but he felt a move to Calgary was best for him. He resides on the West Coast so signing with B.C. was a logical choice.

[AngeloV]

Not to mention they appear to have an outstanding young Canadian QB tandem, O'Connor who should have been still with us challenging for first team reps. Don't know what happened there.

That is great but I fail to see what the owner had to do with that.

[gilthethrill]

Must be nice to have an owner that tries.

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[Antwon]

Here's another example of the Argos relevance in their market. I stream TSN 690 Montreal every morning. (long time Habs fan) Today there are a number of people talking CFL and the Als ahead of the first game. There's high interest and excitement.
In Toronto the Argos get next to no coverage. This is where MLSE has enough clout to push for more coverage etc. Although Bell/TSN don't push Argo coverage, so maybe it's hopeless.

[argotom]

Here's another example of the Argos relevance in their market. I stream TSN 690 Montreal every morning. (long time Habs fan) Today there are a number of people talking CFL and the Als ahead of the first game. There's high interest and excitement.
In Toronto the Argos get next to no coverage. This is where MLSE has enough clout to push for more coverage etc. Although Bell/TSN don't push Argo coverage, so maybe it's hopeless.

Bell/CTV despite the contract for the CFL, purposely took off the potential Grey Cup game which years ago was on the main networks(CBC and CTV) and brought them down a peg to strictly the cable TSN spot.
Although exclusive yes, the reality for at least not having playoffs or the Championship game is therefore below the "majors".
I am not wrong, as all of the so called 'majors" to include golf and MLS is played on the CTV feed.
Don't get me going about the NFL where the board was purposely cleared on Sundays by removing our league which was doing well a few years back going head to head.
Bell/CTV could change that in a nano second if their advertising arm were also on board.
So perception is reality in this market only.

[ArgoRavi]

Here's another example of the Argos relevance in their market. I stream TSN 690 Montreal every morning. (long time Habs fan) Today there are a number of people talking CFL and the Als ahead of the first game. There's high interest and excitement.
In Toronto the Argos get next to no coverage. This is where MLSE has enough clout to push for more coverage etc. Although Bell/TSN don't push Argo coverage, so maybe it's hopeless.

Tanenbaum put Toronto, Montreal and B.C. all in the same category and yet the new owners in the latter two markets actually seem to be trying to improve the situation in those markets and appear to be making headway. Meanwhile, Larry just whines. I am so pissed off with him and MLSE right now.

[OV Argo]

Tanenbaum put Toronto, Montreal and B.C. all in the same category and yet the new owners in the latter two markets actually seem to be trying to improve the situation in those markets and appear to be making headway. Meanwhile, Larry just whines. I am so pissed off with him and MLSE right now.

X-Mas tree is still living his crack pipe dream of an NFL franchise for Toronnawannabeland; involvement with the Argos was bet hedging to have some control of football in the area - could fold the Argos or try to make them more irrelevant in a heartbeat to fit his agenda.

Larry & MLSE as Argo owners = a total joke.

Meanwhile, there's Doman in BC.

[cfl-cis fan]

X-Mas tree is still living his crack pipe dream of an NFL franchise for Toronnawannabeland; involvement with the Argos was bet hedging to have some control of football in the area - could fold the Argos or try to make them more irrelevant in a heartbeat to fit his agenda.

Larry & MLSE as Argo owners = a total joke.

Meanwhile, there's Doman in BC.

Say what we want about MLSE but I dont see anyone stepping up to purchase the team and keep it in TO. Agree with all comments about lack of good marketing though .... in my opinion we need to replace the Comish though. Sorry but I dont have any trust in him.

[Scooter McCray]

Say what we want about MLSE but I dont see anyone stepping up to purchase the team and keep it in TO. Agree with all comments about lack of good marketing though .... in my opinion we need to replace the Comish though. Sorry but I dont have any trust in him.
Agree with commissioner. I want MLSE to be the owner. I just want them to be an engaged owner, and to put someone in as a standalone President who cares like Michael Clemons and give him free rein to rebuild. Just like Victor Cui is doing as President in Edmonton. The Argos are going to be a contending team to win a championship over the next few years. They need to re-engage the fanbase, the city and the business community while they play good football. And they need to be a leader inside the league itself. MLSE is perfectly suited to do all of the above. MLSE need to learn how to work hard to be successful. The day may come when those skills can be if use with their other franchises.

[Foxhound]

There is no doubt, and there has never been any doubt, that MLSE is in the sports business for one primary purpose: to grow enterprise value. Operating profits (and losses) are of vastly lower importance.

Precisely! MLSE are investors, not operators and they don't know the first thing about running a business including building a brand. (The Maple Leafs and the Raptors were already well established brands when MLSE acquired them.)

So no, they had no business plan for the Argonauts. The entire concept of such a thing is alien to them.

:(



Make Pinball President, give him a budget, and get out of the way. In 5 years you will have value.

Agreed!

:)

[paulwoods13]

(The Maple Leafs and the Raptors were already well established brands when MLSE acquired them.)


That's debatable, at best. Maple Leaf Gardens Ltd. (later rebranded MLSE) purchased the Raptors in 1998, when the team was halfway through its third season and still playing in SkyDome. The Leafs were definitely an established brand before the current ownership structure came along.

[bannedforlife]

Not being snarky but what has he done so far? Are people just excited at fresh blood?Seriously?

[ArgoGabe22]

Seriously?

Excuse me for not following the Lions marketing strategies.

[bannedforlife]

For the first time in eight years there were more than 30,000 people in the stands at BC Place. - 34,082 to be exact. According to those within the organization, the only thing keeping the number that small was the fact that the stadium couldn't properly be staffed to accommodate any more. Edit: Blame Pavco they couldn't source more food and staff on three days notice.

[bannedforlife]

Excuse me for not following the Lions marketing strategies.If you weren't knowledgeable why did you feel the need to say "what has he done so far?" Unless you were actually being sincere, which in that case, I can direct you to a bunch of interviews, if you'd like. He's done more interviews in his short stint than any Argo management since the beginning of their ownership.

Doman has put in the necessary work. He is a busy man and yet has time and wakes up for those early morning radio shows, I've seen him on a small Youtube channel. He is putting in the work and it seems to be paying dividends, MLSE should be ashamed. Frankly, one has to wonder if they want the Argos to commit Irish suicide.

[bannedforlife]

Must be nice to have an owner that tries. <script async="" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>Yes, it is
<iframe scrolling="no" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.d7fc2fc075c61f6fa34d79a0cbbf1e34.htm l?origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.argofans.com" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;" frameborder="0"></iframe><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: medium none;" title="Twitter analytics iframe" frameborder="0"></iframe>

[bannedforlife]

Tanenbaum put Toronto, Montreal and B.C. all in the same category and yet the new owners in the latter two markets actually seem to be trying to improve the situation in those markets and appear to be making headway. Meanwhile, Larry just whines. I am so pissed off with him and MLSE right now.You should be pissed off because what you said was absolutely correct.

[ArgoGabe22]

If you weren't knowledgeable why did you feel the need to say "what has he done so far?" Unless you were actually being sincere, which in that case, I can direct you to a bunch of interviews, if you'd like. He's done more interviews in his short stint than any Argo management since the beginning of their ownership.

I asked the question, what exactly has he done, in order to get more tickets sold? Really not that hard to understand...So interviews. He's done interviews. More tickets sold is a result of a bigger media presence from the owner? Anything else?

[bannedforlife]

I asked the question, what exactly has he done, in order to get more tickets sold? Really not that hard to understand...So interviews. He's done interviews. More tickets sold is a result of a bigger media presence from the owner? Anything else?Why the little beatch attitude. He's doing the work, MLSE isn't, nuf ced.

[ArgoGabe22]

Why the little beatch attitude. He's doing the work, MLSE isn't, nuf ced.

Which is what exactly? This could be an interesting case study, as to how to turn around a sports team, I don

[ArgoGabe22]

^ vague responses doesn

[bannedforlife]

Ok, let's start with some little things like fan engagement:

What Is It Like OWNING A CFL Team?! New BC Lions Owner Amar Doman Shares His Experience So Far!
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKpiYKllXv4)B.C. Lions to mark National Day for Truth and Reconciliation at Sept. 24 game (https://www.coastreporter.net/national-sports/bc-lions-to-mark-national-day-for-truth-and-reconciliation-at-sept-24-game-4340871)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKpiYKllXv4)https://i.imgur.com/KtbPJaK.jpg
<time datetime="2022-01-02T23:27:25Z" title="01/02/2022 07:27 PM" data-short="Jan 2"></time> (https://www.canadiansoccernews.com/forums/topic/74124-cfl-thread/?do=findComment&comment=993921)
Amar Doman on the B.C. Lions legacy brand, reaching a younger audience (https://www.sportsnet.ca/650/halford-brough-morning/amar-doman-b-c-lions-legacy-brand-reaching-younger-audience/)
Lions make Walter first full-time female coaching hire in CFL history (https://www.tsn.ca/bc-lions-tanya-walter-defensive-assistant-1.1759994)

[bannedforlife]

Is there something wrong with trying to post links here, I'm having a helluva time trying to post anything. Most of the lines in my posts are deleted and I have to keep redoing them. Even the mod's posts look cutoff

[bannedforlife]

Hour 2 - Doman makes BC Place great again (https://www.sportsnet.ca/650/halford-brough-morning/hour-2-doman-makes-bc-place-great-again/)

[bannedforlife]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLsFswDleWA

[bannedforlife]

In these articles and interviews, we see fan engagement and in some of them he talks of plans and ideas for the Lions and when confronted with an issue he answers truthfully usually with a plan of action of what he is going to do about it.

I'd post more but this posting problem is starting to piss me off :) And this thread is supposed to be about MLSE

[AngeloV]

In these articles and interviews, we see fan engagement and in some of them he talks of plans and ideas for the Lions and when confronted with an issue he answers truthfully usually with a plan of action of what he is going to do about it.

I'd post more but this posting problem is starting to piss me off :) And this thread is supposed to be about MLSE

Relax man. Gabe asked a simple question. Adding 1000 more posts to prove your point is unnecessary. I agree with your general thinking here, but slight overkill don't you think?

[bannedforlife]

Buddy wanted to know "what has he done so far?", so I told him. Is that enough or do you need some more of what Doman has done? Doesn't say much when a new guy in town unfamiliar with the business can do more than a large sports conglomerate. They should be ashamed.

[AngeloV]

Buddy wanted to know "what has he done so far?", so I told him. Is that enough or do you need some more of what Doman has done? Doesn't say much when a new guy in town unfamiliar with the business can do more than a large sports conglomerate. They should be ashamed.

Again, I agreed with you. Just overkill

[ArgoRavi]

It was interesting that The Rock and Gary Stern felt the need to step in and defend their friend Tanenbaum on Twitter yesterday. Good for them in doing so. I wonder if Larry T. has been feeling the heat over the past few days.

The Rock referred to Tanenbaum as being a "visionary". I don't know whether he is one or not but I certainly haven't seen evidence that he is with the Argos. Just because someone is wealthy, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are a visionary and people without money can be visionaries too. I know that Tanenbaum is disappointed about the XFL merger or partnership not working out but those talks fell apart about a year ago. It's time to put it behind you and move forward. The other owners in the league agreed to revenue sharing with MLSE and he should be doing backflips over that.

Amar Doman seems like a visionary to me and I really hope that Tanenbaum/MLSE learn a few things from him and Victor Cui, who I suspect will get that Edmonton franchise moving in the right direction.

Was anyone else reminded of the 1991 Argos' home opener when they watched the Lions game last night? I realize that the 1991 Argos and their ownership didn't have staying power but I suspect that Doman does have actual money as opposed to Bruce McNall.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

The Rock referred to Tanenbaum as being a "visionary". I don't know whether he is one or not but I certainly haven't seen evidence that he is with the Argos. Just because someone is wealthy, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are a visionary and people without money can be visionaries too. I know that Tanenbaum is disappointed about the XFL merger or partnership not working out but those talks fell apart about a year ago. It's time to put it behind you and move forward. The other owners in the league agreed to revenue sharing with MLSE and he should be doing backflips over that.



http://montrealgazette.com/sports/football/cfl/montreal-alouettes/herb-zurkowsky-alouettes-embark-on-pivotal-cfl-season


Mr.Stern does not sound like he has put the topic behind him.It's a rather cryptic comment.

"This season will determine what the CFL and Als are about. If not, by midseason, you'll see me take action , althought I'm not sure what that means."

[bannedforlife]

but I suspect that Doman does have actual money as opposed to Bruce McNall.I think he does.

Amar S. Doman Owner (https://www.bclions.com/amar-s-doman-owner/)

[Mocha]

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/football/cfl/montreal-alouettes/herb-zurkowsky-alouettes-embark-on-pivotal-cfl-season


Mr.Stern does not sound like he has put the topic behind him.It's a rather cryptic comment.

"This season will determine what the CFL and Als are about. If not, by midseason, you'll see me take action , althought I'm not sure what that means."

It would be nice if he were to take action like Doman is taking out in BC. IIRC, Stern has stated that the Als have sold more corporate seats for this season than in seasons past. Hopefully, he'll take action to sell regular seats as well.

[bannedforlife]

Not really meaning to keep harping about Doman (but I will anyway) I found this old article while looking for his thoughts concerning the season opener.

He is interviewed for an article and a video about his being the subject for the cover of a magazine (https://www.darpanmagazine.com/magazine/cover-story/amar-doman-meet-the-new-owner-of-the-bc-lions/).

This whole type of engagement is what's missing from Argos ownership. In the video he is asked "Do you have a final message to share with us" He looks directly to the camera and asks for support. You get the feeling throughout, "I like this guy, I want to help this guy", the same thing you get from Young and Cui.

And for the life of me (aside from cynical, conspiratorial notions), I can't figure out why the Argos can't do the same (aside from them not having a proper President) I would be willing to bet if there was a thread like this on a Lion's website, they would know about and at the very least have someone engage with it.

I'll agree with the cynics that the Argos may not have the time or feel the need to respond to a bunch of groaners on a website but I would think they should want to tell them they were being heard.

[argotom]

Not really meaning to keep harping about Doman (but I will anyway) I found this old article while looking for his thoughts concerning the season opener.

He is interviewed for an article and a video about his being the subject for the cover of a magazine (https://www.darpanmagazine.com/magazine/cover-story/amar-doman-meet-the-new-owner-of-the-bc-lions/).

This whole type of engagement is what's missing from Argos ownership. In the video he is asked "Do you have a final message to share with us" He looks directly to the camera and asks for support. You get the feeling throughout, "I like this guy, I want to help this guy", the same thing you get from Young and Cui.

And for the life of me (aside from cynical, conspiratorial notions), I can't figure out why the Argos can't do the same (aside from them not having a proper President) I would be willing to bet if there was a thread like this on a Lion's website, they would know about and at the very least have someone engage with it.

I'll agree with the cynics that the Argos may not have the time or feel the need to respond to a bunch of groaners on a website but I would think they should want to tell them they were being heard.


The BC owner does remind me here a little bit like the great John Candy when he was unfortunately a short time owner.
He was doing interviews all across Canada, showed up at practice and was the face of the team.
Too bad and taken way too early in life.

[bannedforlife]

The BC owner does remind me here a little bit like the great John Candy when he was unfortunately a short time owner.
He was doing interviews all across Canada, showed up at practice and was the face of the team.
Too bad and taken way too early in life.Yes, that is what the Argos are missing, not the specific man so much as the idea


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4HzYF67B6U

[jerrym]

The contrast between what Doman is doing in BC in less than a year is in sharp contrast to the non-engagement of MLSE with the Argos over five years.

[bannedforlife]

The contrast between what Doman is doing in BC in less than a year is in sharp contrast to the non-engagement of MLSE with the Argos over five years.That's what I am trying to get across. How much simpler would things be if the league (instead of throwing things against the wall hoping they'll stick ie CFL 2.0, XFL) concentrated on each team selling 24k tickets. If every team could sell 24k tickets (capacity for the smallest stadiums) a whole lot of problems would be solved. Unless someone can tell me otherwise, MLSE has done even worse than Braley (considering their vast resources) and treats the Argos with willful neglect.

Unless they are a total moron, no one buys into the CFL to make money. It can be done and should be striven for but it shouldn't be the main motivation for owning a team. The league really has to better position itself into that niche of pro leagues: Nippon baseball, KHL, Serie A etc that are not seen as the very best but are still highly regarded instead of being an afterthought that may perish any day.

So instead of valuation, why can't this brilliant sports conglomeration figure out how to sell 24k tickets in a market of 3? million people. Then you might not be losing money, or is that the actual intent?

[OV Argo]

That's what I am trying to get across. How much simpler would things be if the league (instead of throwing things against the wall hoping they'll stick ie CFL 2.0, XFL) concentrated on each team selling 24k tickets. If every team could sell 24k tickets (capacity for the smallest stadiums) a whole lot of problems would be solved. Unless someone can tell me otherwise, MLSE has done even worse than Braley (considering their vast resources) and treats the Argos with willful neglect.

Unless they are a total moron, no one buys into the CFL to make money. It can be done and should be striven for but it shouldn't be the main motivation for owning a team. The league really has to better position itself into that niche of pro leagues: Nippon baseball, KHL, Serie A etc that are not seen as the very best but are still highly regarded instead of being an afterthought that may perish any day.

So instead of valuation, why can't this brilliant sports conglomeration figure out how to sell 24k tickets in a market of 3? million people. Then you might not be losing money, or is that the actual intent?

3 million? - more like double that in easy striking range. For a game every 2 weeks ?

But yeah, the pathetic effort and results speak volumes IMO; if only there was another Doman type around to take over. Just impossible some say ? ;o)

[bannedforlife]

3 million? - more like double that in easy striking range. For a game every 2 weeks ?

But yeah, the pathetic effort and results speak volumes IMO; if only there was another Doman type around to take over. Just impossible some say ? ;o)You know, maybe the next game the Lions draw only 18k and all the haterz will come out with the "tolda so's" but I'm sure that won't keep Doman from still kicking and scratching to move slowly forward over an actual plan for the future and not short terms gains like the Argos always seem to do (ie import latest NFL star bust/has been.