Grey Cup Thread - Winnipeg Blue Bombers vs. YOUR Toronto Argonauts

[OV Argo]

First off - really hope Collaros is able to go to be able to face the Bombers at their best; wonder if there will be much injury updates on his injured ankle. I think the Argos will kill them if they are forced to go with the likes of Dru Brown or Prukop (shades of Bummers bad luck GC QB history; Dinwiddie's 1st ever CFL start in place of injured Kevin Glenn in 07; and Sammy Garza having to play for the injured great Matt Dunigan back in 93 i think it was - both predictable Bomber losses).

Bombers have a tough, veteran D and Richie Hall is a smart DC; but I really believe the Argos can both run & pass for lots of yardage and points on this D.

Bombers O with Collaros is both dangerous and balanced; Oliveira is a tough inside runner; good receivers with Schoen & Demski, but I was shocked basically that Greg Ellingson was a total non-factor yesterday - targeted a couple of times only with zero catches; he could make things tougher on the Argos D if he is back to form ? Still think the Argos D can contain and limit this Bombers O, BUT, they have to do wayyyy better than yesterday vs. the Als O.

Accurate FG kicking could be key - both Bede & Liegghio are great at times and iffy at others.

["Issues"Mcgee]

First off - really hope Collaros is able to go to be able to face the Bombers at their best; wonder if there will be much injury updates on his injured ankle. I think the Argos will kill them if they are forced to go with the likes of Dru Brown or Prukop (shades of Bummers bad luck GC QB history; Dinwiddie's 1st ever CFL start in place of injured Kevin Glenn in 07; and Sammy Garza having to play for the injured great Matt Dunigan back in 93 i think it was - both predictable Bomber losses).

Bombers have a tough, veteran D and Richie Hall is a smart DC; but I really believe the Argos can both run & pass for lots of yardage and points on this D.

Bombers O with Collaros is both dangerous and balanced; Oliveira is a tough inside runner; good receivers with Schoen & Demski, but I was shocked basically that Greg Ellingson was a total non-factor yesterday - targeted a couple of times only with zero catches; he could make things tougher on the Argos D if he is back to form ? Still think the Argos D can contain and limit this Bombers O, BUT, they have to do wayyyy better than yesterday vs. the Als O.

Accurate FG kicking could be key - both Bede & Liegghio are great at times and iffy at others.

It's paradoxical. The Argos have to win and you'll take any advantage, but you also want to beat your opponent at their best. It will be interesting to see what happens with Collaros this week.

[ArgoRavi]

There really isn't anything that the Bombers don't do well. They have a similar vibe to the Edmonton teams of 1978 to 1982 so I am looking forward to seeing if the Argos can pull the upset although it won't be an upset in my mind. The Argos have had some interesting games against Winnipeg going back to 2019. MBT brought them back from 20 points down to beat the Bombers in Toronto in 2019 and then almost brought them all the way back from an early 17 point deficit this year. The Argos also thoroughly outplayed Winnipeg last year in Toronto with Nick Arbuckle at QB. They seem to matchup well against the Bombers. Can't wait until Sunday!

[Joe Barnes]

There really isn't anything that the Bombers don't do well. They have a similar vibe to the Edmonton teams of 1978 to 1982 so I am looking forward to seeing if the Argos can pull the upset although it won't be an upset in my mind. The Argos have had some interesting games against Winnipeg going back to 2019. MBT brought them back from 20 points down to beat the Bombers in Toronto in 2019 and then almost brought them all the way back from an early 17 point deficit this year. The Argos also thoroughly outplayed Winnipeg last year in Toronto with Nick Arbuckle at QB. They seem to matchup well against the Bombers. Can't wait until Sunday!

What you say is true. And there is 'just something about' this Argo team. The D has a swagger, reminds me of the group in 2017. That team was 9-9 and managed to beat a very powerful Calgary team. This years Argos are under dogs, as well, but I really like their chances. Especially if Collaros's mobility is limited.

[paulwoods13]

I'm assuming McManis will not be able to play (unfortunately). That opens up another INT spot. IMO the options are, in approximate order of likelihood:


Most likely:

Ali Fayad -- an extra d-lineman would not hurt, especially since the Bombers have some scramble packages for Prukop.

Caleb Holden -- we were a little thin at DB on the weekend.


Less Likely:

Eric Rogers (if healthy) -- would love to see him in the lineup, but the receivers we played last week are all capable, and he could also be inserted in place of Phillips.


Very Unlikely:

Isaiah Cage -- The starting O-line is gelling and does not need any adjustment, but he could dress as a backup o-lineman. Dressing Cage would likely mean sitting Richards, which would open a NAT spot for Brescacin (as if) or Knight. But I don't see this happening -- it makes no sense to use an INT spot on a guy who won't get on the field unless there is an injury, and even then would require ratio juggling.

Robertson Daniel -- for the same reason as Holden -- we could use a bit more depth at DB. But Daniel hasn't played since week 1, can't see him being put back in the lineup at this point.


All things considered, I think Fayad draws in if McManis is out.

[paulwoods13]

One other possibility, intriguing but IMO highly unlikely, would be adding Haydel. He had that great return against Mtl two weeks ago. But I don't see a lot of value in adding a second kick returner.

[ArgoRavi]

I would like to see Robertson Daniel added as he is versatile and can play in Chris Edwards' linebacker spot, which is where he started this season, or in the defensive backfield, where he started last season.

I still like Cam Phillips a lot but he has struggled since returning from his injury. I do think that they should ponder replacing him with Eric Rogers for the Grey Cup as a result of his recent struggles.

[Will]

OV, I have made this the Grey Cup thread and changed the title accordingly.

[Will]

Argos are going to have to do a better job of running the ball than BC did.

[OV Argo]

OV, I have made this the Grey Cup thread and changed the title accordingly.

Thank-you / good stuff !

Nothing on Collaros' injury yet?

[Stevoman]

Argos are going to be wearing blue while the Bombers will be in white. Not that it matters to me but I always find it interesting. I guess the Bombers are trying to keep their streak alive and I'm assuming there's some superstition involved.

[ArgoRavi]

Argos are going to be wearing blue while the Bombers will be in white. Not that it matters to me but I always find it interesting. I guess the Bombers are trying to keep their streak alive and I'm assuming there's some superstition involved.

The Argos won the 1997, 2012 and 2017 Grey Cups while wearing their home uniforms.

[ArgoRavi]

Thank-you / good stuff !

Nothing on Collaros' injury yet?

Collaros appears to be quite fine and this doesn't appear to be an issue.

[paulwoods13]

The Argos won the 1997, 2012 and 2017 Grey Cups while wearing their home uniforms.

I would have loved to bust out this year's version of the 1991 GC look (white jersey/Oxford pants/Cambridge socks) but instead we will almost certainly get Oxford/Oxford/TBD. I really hope the team at least goes with last Sunday's look (Cambridge socks) rather than monochrome top to bottom as we had in 2017. I'd also love to see a look I believe we never saw this year (but which used to be our standard "home" uni): white pants under Oxford jerseys.

Whatever we wear, it won't matter -- we will win regardless.

[Will]

Thank-you / good stuff !

Nothing on Collaros' injury yet?

O'Shea isn't going to tell us.

[BATKINSON001]

The Argos won the 1997, 2012 and 2017 Grey Cups while wearing their home uniforms.Interesting, I didnt think the argos were the home team for this one, due to proximity it would have been winnipeg.

[Stevoman]

I would have loved to bust out this year's version of the 1991 GC look (white jersey/Oxford pants/Cambridge socks) but instead we will almost certainly get Oxford/Oxford/TBD. I really hope the team at least goes with last Sunday's look (Cambridge socks) rather than monochrome top to bottom as we had in 2017. I'd also love to see a look I believe we never saw this year (but which used to be our standard "home" uni): white pants under Oxford jerseys.

Whatever we wear, it won't matter -- we will win regardless.

Looks like they are all blue (navy socks included) for this year. They did wear the white pants with blue jersey once this season and it was for the Touchdown Atlantic game but I agree, it should be worn more often. I'm good with the all blue look for this week though!

[Rich]

I see this game as a day of reckoning for the Argonauts and Zach Collaros, but that’s probably just me.

I became a big fan of this guy during his glorious college days at UC. I was thrilled that he was able to show his special skill set and his intangibles-out-the-yinyang for the Argos on several occasions in ‘12 and ‘13 and I was heartbroken that we let him walk in 2014.

Sure, it would have been a very brave and bold move at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight it’s pretty clear to me that keeping Collaros and letting Ricky walk woulda been the better move.

In any case I view Zach’s 2019 departure very differently. This guy had so little regard for the Argonauts, its management and its fans that he was willing to leave his home base and his young family just to get away. So that he could go to a “good” franchise that was a “winner” and had fans that “cared”.

Well the chickens are finally coming home to roost. I am hoping like hell we knock his sorry ass all over Mosaic Field on Sunday and show him what a champion Argonaut team looks like. And also so I can finally let go of all of those what-ifs from 2014.:-)

[Argo57]

I see this game as a day of reckoning for the Argonauts and Zach Collaros, but that’s probably just me.

I became a big fan of this guy during his glorious college days at UC. I was thrilled that he was able to show his special skill set and his intangibles-out-the-yinyang for the Argos on several occasions in ‘12 and ‘13 and I was heartbroken that we let him walk in 2014.

Sure, it would have been a very brave and bold move at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight it’s pretty clear to me that keeping Collaros and letting Ricky walk woulda been the better move.

In any case I view Zach’s 2019 departure very differently. This guy had so little regard for the Argonauts, its management and its fans that he was willing to leave his home base and his young family just to get away. So that he could go to a “good” franchise that was a “winner” and had fans that “cared”.

Well the chickens are finally coming home to roost. I am hoping like hell we knock his sorry ass all over Mosaic Field on Sunday and show him what a champion Argonaut team looks like. And also so I can finally let go of all of those what-ifs from 2014.:-)

Zach looked very good from the beginning in Toronto, hard to say how things would have worked out here looking at some of the O-Line play over the last few years.
Hard to walk away from a Hall of Fame QB who as it turned out had a good season in 2017 which ended with a championship.
Turns out Jim Popp had a contract extension ready for Collaros but was fired before it was finalized (see article below).

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwigkuGqmLX7AhWem2oFHR2NC_UQFnoECBYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tsn.ca%2Fjim-popp-had-contract-extension-for-zach-collaros-in-place-1.1378692&usg=AOvVaw1Tsn28JhjOe4CuBlOzYzEZ

[paulwoods13]

In any case I view Zach’s 2019 departure very differently. This guy had so little regard for the Argonauts, its management and its fans that he was willing to leave his home base and his young family just to get away. So that he could go to a “good” franchise that was a “winner” and had fans that “cared”.


I don't think that's how it all went down. First of all, he was traded to the Bombers; that was Argos' choice, not his. Second, he had just agreed to sign a contract extension but before it could be signed, Jim Popp got fired. Murphy and Pinball then decided to trade him.

https://www.tsn.ca/dave-naylor-prairie-grey-cup-in-fail-safe-regina-ready-to-roll-1.1878972

[DoubleBlue_Red]

Would be nice to an MLSE-organized viewing party for the Grey Cup, similar to what they did for TFC when they were in the 2016 & 2017 finals (albeit those games were at BMO). Would be a good chance for Argo fans to congregate and cheer on the team for a final. The weather is not too cold yet.

[ArgoGabe22]

Would be nice to an MLSE-organized viewing party for the Grey Cup, similar to what they did for TFC when they were in the 2016 & 2017 finals (albeit those games were at BMO). Would be a good chance for Argo fans to congregate and cheer on the team for a final. The weather is not too cold yet.

Bet99 is hosting a watch party

[RB957]

Would be nice to an MLSE-organized viewing party for the Grey Cup, similar to what they did for TFC when they were in the 2016 & 2017 finals (albeit those games were at BMO). Would be a good chance for Argo fans to congregate and cheer on the team for a final. The weather is not too cold yet.

It is a great idea... but what if the turnout wasn't good? Given how the team has struggled to attract fans to its games (besides us die-hards, that is), this might be a risky proposition. Also, most people I talk to who watch the game do so with family and friends at someone's home. Although it is only my son is coming over to watch the game this year, I would be hard pressed to go all the way downtown somewhere to watch it, especially outside.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

It is a great idea... but what if the turnout wasn't good? Given how the team has struggled to attract fans to its games (besides us die-hards, that is), this might be a risky proposition. Also, most people I talk to who watch the game do so with family and friends at someone's home. Although it is only my son is coming over to watch the game this year, I would be hard pressed to go all the way downtown somewhere to watch it, especially outside.

Its true beer is a lot cheaper at home. I hope a few die-hards will make it out to the game in Regina.

[ArgofanIan]

Team treated me better than I deserve. Nice gift, viewing party at real sports , a great team and got to hang out with some great CFL fans down by the lake.

Lots of fan organized viewing parties in face book in the Official fan club around the city. Really great to see. Thanks to everyone who organized these. this is kind what its all about for our league.

But hate to say I get too nervous so likely watch at home... with my not so famous Chili.... LOL

[Will]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">They tried to set something up but the upstairs was booked by some companies months ago. Still would have been great to see something done. No much hype in the city..... sadly.</p>&mdash; ARRR CiTY ARRR TEAM (@ARRRRGLYE38) <a href="https://twitter.com/ARRRRGLYE38/status/1593594357646499844?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 18, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Foxhound]

The Toronto Argonauts have never lost a Grey Cup Game to the Winnipeg Blue Bombers:

11 December 1937 - Winnipeg 3 at Toronto 4
10 December 1938 - Winnipeg 7 at Toronto 30
1 December 1945 - Winnipeg 0 at Toronto 35
30 November 1946 - Winnipeg 6 at Toronto 28
29 November 1947 - Winnipeg 9 at Toronto 10
25 November 1950 - Winnipeg 0 at Toronto 13

But the Argonauts this year won't have home field advantage. Will this be the critical factor jeopardizing their win streak?

:hmmmm:

[OV Argo]

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A bunch of GTA sports bars might quake in fear at the prospect of some of their NFL fan-boy type customers (and staff) being all insulted and po'd by the notion of showing the minor league CFL / GC game. LOL<iframe scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets/widget_iframe.644279d1635fd969e87af94a98bd232b.htm l?origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.argofans.com" title="Twitter settings iframe" style="display: none;"></iframe><iframe id="rufous-sandbox" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true" allowfullscreen="true" style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: none;" title="Twitter analytics iframe"></iframe>

[Foxhound]

Don't patronize those bars ever again.

:mad:

[OV Argo]

Don't patronize those bars ever again.

:mad:


Wouldn't ever patronize them in the first place. Don't watch The Masked Singer either or listen to phony, crap pop music for that matter either.

[Rich]

There was a nice report about the game on CBC TV this evening featuring the great Lori Bursey in Regina.

It also had the manager of the Brazen Head pub in Liberty Village saying they’re having a Cup party and putting the game on with sound, and I hope these guys get rewarded with big crowd.

[OV Argo]

There was a nice report about the game on CBC TV this evening featuring the great Lori Bursey in Regina.

It also had the manager of the Brazen Head pub in Liberty Village saying they’re having a Cup party and putting the game on with sound, and I hope these guys get rewarded with big crowd.

Uh oh - they're really going out on a limb and taking a risk there to dare show the GC game when there are NFL games to be shown instead; hopefully no revolt or riot started by their NFL fan-boy or world class soccer lovers customers & staff. ;o)

[Will]

There was a nice report about the game on CBC TV this evening featuring the great Lori Bursey in Regina.

It also had the manager of the Brazen Head pub in Liberty Village saying they’re having a Cup party and putting the game on with sound, and I hope these guys get rewarded with big crowd.

My friend the great Dave Slessor is hurt.

[BATKINSON001]

Uh oh - they're really going out on a limb and taking a risk there to dare show the GC game when there are NFL games to be shown instead; hopefully no revolt or riot started by their NFL fan-boy or world class soccer lovers customers & staff. ;o). I think they'll be fine. Though nice to hear that businesses are showing the game on their own, as I only know of several places that have fan organized parties (more than what has been done throughout the season) through FB.

Hoops on Yonge St (upper lounge) and State and Main in Etobicoke are the two closest to Me. I don't know of anything official being done by the team though.

[ArgofanIan]

Think some Bomber fans get together at Duffy's Taveren in Bloor West but would need to check with them directly. is a bunch of Bomber fans in the GTA.

[Will]

Depth Chart (https://d3ham790trbkqy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2022/11/109th-Grey-Cup-TOR-vs.-WPG-November-20-2022.pdf)

[Shatto]

No real surprises with the depth chart. Brinkman is probably included as he is a very stocky and very strong DT, who could be an asset stopping Winnipeg run game. A little disappointed Brescacin no dressed.

[Foxhound]

Don't watch The Masked Singer either or listen to phony, crap pop music for that matter either.

So the Lone Ranger has now taken up pop singing as a second career? Is he still partnered with Tonto? Is that entirely correct politically these days? I seem to recall that the Edmonton Football Club had to sever its connection with our northern natives.

:confused:

[ArgoRavi]

No real surprises with the depth chart. Brinkman is probably included as he is a very stocky and very strong DT, who could be an asset stopping Winnipeg run game. A little disappointed Brescacin no dressed.

Not surprised on Brescacin at all. It's clear that the coaching staff has decided to go with the guys that have gotten them here plus it's also likely that they will be moving on from both Brescacin and Rogers next season.

The coaching staff seems to have made the correct player personnel decisions throughout this season, given their 12-7 record. I know there was a lot of consternation when the likes of Martez Ivey, Jalen Collins, and Treston Decoud were traded or released but it isn't like the Argos have, ultimately, missed any of them this season. One can argue over Chandler Worthy but I still maintain that the biggest issue with the Argos' return game this year has been the blocking rather than the returner, and even that has improved in recent weeks.

[Foxhound]

So the Toronto Argonauts haven't lost a Grey Cup Game in 35 years and now have a six game winning streak:

29 November 1987 - Edmonton 38 Toronto 36 in Vancouver
24 November 1991 - Toronto 36 Calgary 21 in Winnipeg
24 November 1996 - Toronto 43 Edmonton 37 in Hamilton
16 November 1997 - Toronto 47 Saskatchewan 23 in Edmonton
21 November 2004 - Toronto 27 British Columbia 19 in Ottawa
25 November 2012 - Toronto 35 Calgary 22 in Toronto
26 November 2017 - Toronto 27 Calgary 24 in Ottawa

Moreover no team has won more Grey Cups since 1987 than have the Toronto Argonauts.

But will their winning streak now be snapped by the fearsome Winnipeg Blue Bombers?

:confused:

[Will]

Up at at 'em

It's Grey Cup Sunday

[AngeloV]

We’re better than you, and you know it.

[Argo57]

Argos play the Bombers tough and I expect no different today.
Win the line(s) of scrimmage, protect the football, finish drives with TD’s and score one more point than Winnipeg is all we ask!
Go Argos!

[Foxhound]

It's us vs the rest of the country

In my mind it's us lovers of our Canadian football against the bastiche traitors who've embraced American football. Deport them all I say!

:mad:

[AngeloV]

In my mind it's us lovers of our Canadian football against the bastiche traitors who've embraced American football. Deport them all I say!

:mad:

I’m Canadian football first, but also love American ball.

[ArgoGabe22]

Argos have a chance to win this. They are absolutely capable of winning this matchup. A little me is nervous and I think they also have the potential to get blown out. Knock some sense into me, guys.

[Argo57]

Argos have a chance to win this. They are absolutely capable of winning this matchup. A little me is nervous and I think they also have the potential to get blown out. Knock some sense into me, guys.

Pretty accurate assessment TBH.

[OV Argo]

I’m Canadian football first, but also love American ball.

Me too; however, what's really sad/pathetic in this country is the number of little wannabe, NFL fan-boy types who feel the need to mock, cut-down or choose ignorance of Canadian football, because they have been led like little sheep to believe Canadian football is inferior to the American version of the game; now those types, should be deported, or pi$$ed-on.

[1971GreyCup]

The vibe at the hotel is definitely the Argos can win this.

Andrew Harris was even in beast mode at breakfast.

Bo Levi Mitchell told me this morning that he’s convinced the Argos will win. Doug Brown on Twitter questions whether Zach can complete the 1st quarter. We should know about Zach in the first series. Go Argos!

[argolio]

Let's go!!!

[OV Argo]

The vibe at the hotel is definitely the Argos can win this.

Andrew Harris was even in beast mode at breakfast.

Bo Levi Mitchell told me this morning that he’s convinced the Argos will win. Doug Brown on Twitter questions whether Zach can complete the 1st quarter. We should know about Zach in the first series. Go Argos!

Cool !

Again, hate to see Collaros unable to go (for any part of the game), which IMO would taint an Argo win, at least somewhat.

Want to see the Argos O move the ball lots on the supposedly so great Bummers' D; they are light-weight on the front 7 and can be run on - pound Harris & Ouellette at them. I'll bet anything that the team that shows more balance on offence (pass play calls vs. run calls) wins this game.

[ArgoRavi]

Argos have a chance to win this. They are absolutely capable of winning this matchup. A little me is nervous and I think they also have the potential to get blown out. Knock some sense into me, guys.

The Argos have been blown out only twice this season which is one more time than the Bombers. One of the "blowout" losses for the Argos was a 14-2 game with less than five minutes left. I can't see this game being a blowout.

[ArgoRavi]

The vibe at the hotel is definitely the Argos can win this.

Andrew Harris was even in beast mode at breakfast.

Bo Levi Mitchell told me this morning that he’s convinced the Argos will win. Doug Brown on Twitter questions whether Zach can complete the 1st quarter. We should know about Zach in the first series. Go Argos!

Bo Levi is really talking the Argos up on TSN. You can tell that he has a lot of respect and admiration for this team.

[OV Argo]

Bombers going with only one kicker - Liegghio doing all jobs; this guy gets injured - trying to make a tackle or pulls a groin, early in the game, and the Bummers are likely done/finished. Ultra risky & myopic roster management IMO; don't want to see him injured - just sayin'.

[jerrym]

Would be nice to an MLSE-organized viewing party for the Grey Cup, similar to what they did for TFC when they were in the 2016 & 2017 finals (albeit those games were at BMO). Would be a good chance for Argo fans to congregate and cheer on the team for a final. The weather is not too cold yet.

It ain't happening and we all know why.

[Will]

Argos defense has started the game well.

Bombers bringing the beat on MBT.

[Will]

Touchdown Bombers after the Bede FG miss.

[ArgoFan1]

Very sad to see so many empty seats !!! Attendance has been miserable every stadium this season.

[dmont]

Leake looks great so far. Hasn't been close to breaking one, but solid decisions running into the coverage.

[Will]

Bede hits a FG to tie it up a 7-7.

[ArgoGabe22]

Very sad to see so many empty seats !!! Attendance has been miserable every stadium this season.

Tickets were what $200+? I was wondering if It’s actually empty or if Mosaic has a concourse where people hang out .

[dmont]

Two drops for kurleigh :'(

[bigzee19]

So we just abandon the run.... Ffs

[Golden Fleece]

Did anyone else see an illegal procedure on #51 when Winnipeg scored on 3rd and 1? Looked like he left early in real time and replay confirmed.

[Will]

Two missed field goals by Boris Bede.

[ArgoFan1]

Bede has missed two. Not been a good season for him. Argos dropping too many balls.

[bigzee19]

Two missed field goals by Boris Bede.

Fg attempts are going to kill us along with not running the ball. We have become 1 dimensional so quick.

[OV Argo]

Did anyone else see an illegal procedure on #51 when Winnipeg scored on 3rd and 1? Looked like he left early in real time and replay confirmed.

Yep - wondered what J. Davis was pointing at - why is this not reviewed ???

- indeed - why abandon the run in the 2nd quarter ???

- MBT still struggles with deep ball accuracy

- I'd look at replacing Bede as FG kicker next season - way too inaccurate a lot of times; put him back at punter, let him do KOs (and back-up FG kicker)

[Will]

Yep - wondered what J. Davis was pointing at - why is this not reviewed ???

- indeed - why abandon the run in the 2nd quarter ???

- MBT still struggles with deep ball accuracy

- I'd look at replacing Bede as FG kicker next season - way too inaccurate a lot of times; put him back at punter, let him do KOs (and back-up FG kicker)

You cannot review illegal procedure as such.

Winnipeg is bringing tons of pressure that the Argos aren't picking up well.

I'll comment on your 3rd point in a few hours.

[ArgoGabe22]

Couldn’t ask for a better defensive performance. Just need Offence to start clicking and moving the ball.

[Foxhound]

Me too; however, what's really sad/pathetic in this country is the number of little wannabe, NFL fan-boy types who feel the need to mock, cut-down or choose ignorance of Canadian football, because they have been led like little sheep to believe Canadian football is inferior to the American version of the game; now those types, should be deported, or pi$$ed-on.

Truth!

[dmont]

Ok, halftime. First singer isn't very entertaining, so I'm going to post.

Did a pretty good job in the first half. Macbeth is getting rushed, which sucks. Gotta adapt tho! Come on, Dinner, gameplan something!

Seemed to really get away from the run game in the second quarter. What's up with that? Give them something to think about when they're rushing the qb.

Catch the ball, kurleigh! I think his two drops were check downs, so It likely didn't make a huge difference, but come on! Game face, bro!

Seeing bede miss two fgs really sucks. I know the game shouldn't fall entirely on him, but very deflating.

Really liking Leake! He came to play. I think this is his best game so far.

The second two singers were better. Why wouldn't they get together and do a song together? The arkells and the lumineers played together, that was good.

[bigzee19]

You cannot review illegal procedure as such.

Winnipeg is bringing tons of pressure that the Argos aren't picking up well.

I'll comment on your 3rd point in a few hours.

Can't pick it up when our backfield is empty.......

[OV Argo]

You cannot review illegal procedure as such.

Winnipeg is bringing tons of pressure that the Argos aren't picking up well.

I'll comment on your 3rd point in a few hours.

I thought all scoring plays were reviewed ? - an O-limeman jumps early and a TD gets to stand ? - WTF is that ???

[Stevoman]

Argos are good at making adjustments at half time and being only down 3 I like our chances! But yes, don't abandon the run.

[Joe Barnes]

The CFL could have done WAY better than this lame halftime show. I'm not an Arkells fan, but they were great in Hamilton, last year. All of these songs are played at the same tempo. Pick it up a notch, ffs!!

[Will]

I thought all scoring plays were reviewed ? - an O-limeman jumps early and a TD gets to stand ? - WTF is that ???

They don't (or can't) look for penalties on those.

[bigzee19]

I thought all scoring plays were reviewed ? - an O-limeman jumps early and a TD gets to stand ? - WTF is that ???

I'm more upset about abandoning the run than the missed review.

[dmont]

Oh, and I also like Macbeth playing from behind.

[bigzee19]

Oh, and I also like Macbeth playing from behind.

Yes.... Just not against Winnipegs D.

[OV Argo]

They don't (or can't) look for penalties on those.

So if a slotback jumps 3 yards off-side and thus gets open for a TD, the play stands ?

[Will]

So if a slotback jumps 3 yards off-side and thus gets open for a TD, the play stands ?

I haven't heard of the Command Centre stepping in under those circumstances.

[bigzee19]

Also if Winnipeg is going to keep bringing the pressure just start running quick slant patterns over the middle. Let our receivers fight for the yac yards.

[ArgoRavi]

Argos haven't played the way they are capable of playing but are only down by three points. MBT got the passing game going in the second quarter but they MUST get back to the running game. Judging from Harris' halftime remarks, I have no doubt that he will remind the coaches of this. A balanced offence in the second half could put up some serious points for the Argos. Defensively, they are playing well; it would be great if they could force a turnover or two. The wind has been doing some crazy things to Bede's kicks. I thought that he made a nice adjustment on his third kick, which was good, but the wind didn't push his last kick like he was expecting. Perhaps he is overthinking a little at this point but I believe he can and will bounce back.

[ArgoRavi]

Argos were heavy underdogs in this one but only trail by 3 points at the half. They aren't in bad shape at all but just need the right halftime adjustments.

[bigzee19]

Nice

[Will]

Couldn't ask for a better start to the second half for Toronto.

[dmont]

Wooo, great balanced drive! Macbeth making quick decisions, receivers getting open!

[bigzee19]

Wooo, great balanced drive! Macbeth making quick decisions, receivers getting open!

Because we have the backs out there.

[Golden Fleece]

Because we have the backs out there.

Yep. Keep riding them.

[kellynjk]

Seems like the Argos listened to the commentators and brought back the run game, which was effective in the first quarter. Good start to the second half. Thought the half time show was so-so, the first singer was flat and I guess because I'm not a country music fan I didn't recognize any of the music, but thought it was pretty mediocre.

So far Collaros looks like he's fine, he's running quite abit so it doesn't look like his ankle is bothering him. And the Argos defence is looking sharp!!

[Will]

The Argos should arguably have 3 interceptions this game, but they don't, they can't keep giving Winnipeg second chances.

[bigzee19]

This drive by Winnipeg is worry some...

[dmont]

This winnipeg touchdown is the fault of our defense. Missed sack, missed interception, penalty on a sack, pass interference. F@cking sucks.

[Will]

The offside call on Smith was meh

[bigzee19]

This winnipeg touchdown is the fault of our defense. Missed sack, missed interception, penalty on a sack, pass interference. F@cking sucks.

We need to get points on the next drive period.

[kellynjk]

Brady Oliveira saves puppies in the off-season - ha, ha! Some of the colour commentating is pretty amusing!!

[Will]

I forgot about the dropped INT. That makes it worse.

[dmont]

Wheels are coming off. Misconduct penalty.

[Will]

That was incredibly stupid and undisciplined by Hunter.

[bigzee19]

Ffs..... Need to get the ball back with out giving up points now.

[Will]

Ffs..... Need to get the ball back with out giving up points now.

Ask and you shall receive.

[bigzee19]

Ask and you shall receive.

Yup and then hit a wall on 2nd and 3......

[Will]

Seriously?

[dmont]

Well, $h!t.

[Golden Fleece]

We did not need that.

[bigzee19]

Well... That's a bummer

[Will]

That was back-breaking.

[kellynjk]

So stop throwing to Banks now, switch it up to other receivers for God's Sakes!! Or go back to the running game. I hate it when MBT keeps looking for Banks when Banks is not having a good day (which is most of the time)!!!~

[bigzee19]

Still have hope??

[Will]

The defense has little to no margin for error left. Winnipeg scrimmages from their 40 and a 2 and out is imperative. Cannot let Winnipeg put together some first downs and get it into FG range.

[ArgoGabe22]

Argos could’ve taken back momentum with a quick TD but only came back with a FG

[dmont]

So stop throwing to Banks now, switch it up to other receivers for God's Sakes!! Or go back to the running game. I hate it when MBT keeps looking for Banks when Banks is not having a good day (which is most of the time)!!!~

Agreed. Banks has flashed, but more often than not, he p!sses me off.

[Golden Fleece]

At least it's a one score game again. Need to cash in one turnover opportunity.

[ArgoTD]

Biggest mistake is their insistence of playing and throwing to Banks. Should have been released - and yet Rogers and Bescasin are not dressed.

[Golden Fleece]

And there it is!

[dmont]

Why is Kelly in there???

[bigzee19]

Slow down boys... Geeze that was terrible

[Will]

Chad Kelly is in the game.

[dmont]

Risky risky!

[ArgoTD]

Kelley’s in?

[dmont]

Seriously, wtf!!??!!? Youre.throwing the kid into the game in the fourth quarter OF THE CHAMPIONSHIP.... AGAINST WINNIPEG!?!?!?!

[bigzee19]

That last play is very frustrating.....

[Will]

MBT hurt his thumb.

[dmont]

Ah, Macbeth hurt :(

[bigzee19]

Holding... For real.... Come on

[kellynjk]

Yeah they were showing MBT and saying that they had to tape his thumb on his throwing hand and they aren't sure he can grip and throw the football properly!

[ArgoGabe22]

They need some package to get Kelly running

[Will]

Run defense has got to step up here.

[Will]

Great return by Javon Leake.

I guess MBT is done.

[bigzee19]

Not gonna lie... Wish MBT was in for this drive..... I can't believe I'm saying this....

[Will]

What an opportunity for Chad Kelly.

[ArgoTD]

Kick Banks out!

[Will]

They're really calling that at this stage?

[bigzee19]

I've always disliked him..... Now he does this crap....

[Will]

Argos never seem to win challenges so...

[dmont]

Banks, you prick.

[kellynjk]

Banks - what an asshole! You can't catch anything in this game and then just to add insult to injury you do something like this. Never understand why we signed this idiot!!

Banks blaming others because he's incapable of catching anything and now the Argos waste a challenge on it - GEEZ!!!! So they lose the time out - this team UGH!!!!!

[Golden Fleece]

I hope you guys are just setting up Banks to score the game winning TD and lose the goat horns.

[kellynjk]

Go KELLY!!!!!

[dmont]

Wooton!

Don't knownif we took enough time off. Defense will have to be big here.

[kellynjk]

I say keep Kelly in - he looks more dynamic than MBT has looked!!!!

[bigzee19]

Also if Winnipeg is going to keep bringing the pressure just start running quick slant patterns over the middle. Let our receivers fight for the yac yards.

Thank you for listening.

D do your job!!!!!

[ArgoFan1]

Are we looking at another Joe Barnes moment ???? Come in Kelly !!!

[Golden Fleece]

Wow!

[Will]

Henoc Muamba with the interception.

[dmont]

_______
| x x |
| o |
‐---------
o

[kellynjk]

Come on Kelly - bring it home!!!

[Golden Fleece]

Go D!

[Will]

Oh no

[kellynjk]

Oh My GOD - why didn't Dinwiddie keep Kelly in and let him move it down the field. And Bede - what a disaster he's been this game!!

[Golden Fleece]

Crushing penalty.

[kellynjk]

What a bizarre 4th quarter!! Now Facemask penalty!

[Golden Fleece]

Unbelievable!

[Will]

The Toronto Argonauts are Grey Cup champions!

[kellynjk]

Oh WOW just WOW - unbelievable!!!!! Argos win it!!

[Golden Fleece]

What a memorable game. That last 3 1/2 minutes was one of the biggest emotional roller coasters I've ever gone through watching a sporting event. Enjoy the celebration everyone.

Thanks again to the forum members who keep the conversation going all year round. I don't post a lot, but I enjoy the insights throughout the year.

[ArgoGabe22]

It’ll be an interesting off season. Is Chad Kelly the guy? Very small sample size but I’m sure fans online will be demanding it.

[kellynjk]

Well Kelly looked good in the time he played. MBT is 34 years old I would say at the very least that Chad Kelly deserves to play more next season and to start some games!!

[Will]

guys, we just won the grey cup!!

[ArgoGabe22]

Robbie Smith deserves some award, despite his penalty and punt coverage. Just to come back and respond right after thinking you might have just cost your team

[argolio]

Never in doubt.

Robbie Smith totally laid out for that. Awesome way to seal the game.

[bigzee19]

I didn't show up here all year but I did today.

I can't believe it.

Wow

[OV Argo]

We told you !!!

Arrrrrrrgoooooooos ! (shoulda won by about 17 points)

[jerrym]

What a wild finish! A bigger comeback than the 100+ fumble return against Calgary in 2017 with MBT out at the end, the penalty putting the ball back at the 41, the inexperienced Kelly leading them to a TD, the blocked punt and then us blocking a punt and finally an interception. An unorthodox way to win but is a WIN and another GREY CUP FOR THE WINNGEST TEAM IN CFL HISTORY.

[Argo57]

Unbelievable victory for the Argonauts.
Proud of this team, happy for all the players and all of the loyal fans!
Absolutely elated tonight!

[OV Argo]

Cool !

Again, hate to see Collaros unable to go (for any part of the game), which IMO would taint an Argo win, at least somewhat.

Want to see the Argos O move the ball lots on the supposedly so great Bummers' D; they are light-weight on the front 7 and can be run on - pound Harris & Ouellette at them. I'll bet anything that the team that shows more balance on offence (pass play calls vs. run calls) wins this game.

Quite happy to be dead wrong on that call; Argos coulda/shoulda run the ball more though.

Henoc & Robbie Smith - 2 fitting Argo heroes on this GC win - very proud of them and the whole team !!!

[Will]

The decision to keep Cam Phillips in the lineup proved to be the right one.

[dmont]

Wow...

Great win. It was close at the end, but to me, the argonauts were the better team for just about the whole game. Winnipeg didn't play particularly well. The only reason it was close was toronto mistakes.

Javon Leake will be the unsung hero of this game. Put them in outstanding position on every kick and punt.

Robbie Smith... there's the most relieved guy in the house. Had penalty trouble and coverage issues the whole game, commits a penalty that SHOULD HAVE cost the team the cup. Comes back and blocks a field goal... huge.

Feel so good for Henoc and Oakman. Both big dudes crying like babies.

Despite a questionable season and a lousy playoffs, Speedy B gets his ring. Congrats, I guess. Don't be on the team next year.

Feel a little bad for Macbeth. The guy has a great season and a pretty good game tonight. Gets hurt right at the end, and now it seems like he's totally overshadowed. Nobody interviewed him, didn't see him on the stage. He deserves a lot of the credit for this moment and I don't feel like he's getting it.

Overall, proud to be an Argonauts Lifer!

[ArgoFan1]

Don't know what to make of the behaviour of MBT after the game. He never joined the team at all, either on the stage or in the dressing room celebrations !!! I was looking forward to seeing him celebrate. If he is retiring, I thought he would have even more reason to celebrate.

[ArgoGabe22]

Don't know what to make of the behaviour of MBT after the game. He never joined the team at all, either on the stage or in the dressing room celebrations !!! I was looking forward to seeing him celebrate. If he is retiring, I thought he would have even more reason to celebrate.

He seemed to be in good spirits with Kelly. Maybe he didn’t feel he earned it and the team deserved all the credit?

[kellynjk]

Well lots of decisions to be made in the off-season. I have never been a big fan of MBT, but I give him credit for helping the Argos win the Grey Cup this year. But for next season if they re-sign him, I hope that they split the starting quarterback duties between him and Chad Kelly - Kelly has earned it. If the Argos split the quarterback duties, I could live with it - otherwise let's get another quarterback and give Chad Kelly the starting quarterback role.

I hope they dump Banks (he definitely hasn't been worth it) - dump Bede as well, he's too inconsistent and hopefully they can convince Harris to come back. The defensive team was impressive and I think there is some real potential with some of the offensive receivers.

As others have stated, this team was better than they were given credit and they played to the end today and deserved the win!!!

[jerrym]

Wow...


Feel a little bad for Macbeth. The guy has a great season and a pretty good game tonight. Gets hurt right at the end, and now it seems like he's totally overshadowed. Nobody interviewed him, didn't see him on the stage. He deserves a lot of the credit for this moment and I don't feel like he's getting it.

Overall, proud to be an Argonauts Lifer!

Agree on both points. I would have liked to see more recognition for MBT at the end. I still think Kelly has a fair bit to learn and it would be good if MBT and Kelly could team up again next year with Kelly getting a greater share of the load.

[jerrym]

Watching Muamba cry says it all about how much it meant to him and how much that meant to the team the whole season as they slowly built up after a wobbly start to beat a team that at times this seemed destined to three-eat.

[jerrym]

To be honest I thought the Argos were going to lose when Banks penalty put them at the Winnipeg 41 and second 25 with an inexperienced Kelly at QB. Kelly's 20 yard run after Jefferson's offside got the comeback rolling.

["Issues"Mcgee]

That was one hell of a ball game. Once again the Argos achieve glory in the most spectacularly clumsy way.

Chad Kelly's potential cannot be ignored at this point. They need to hold on to him.

[AngeloV]

Me too; however, what's really sad/pathetic in this country is the number of little wannabe, NFL fan-boy types who feel the need to mock, cut-down or choose ignorance of Canadian football, because they have been led like little sheep to believe Canadian football is inferior to the American version of the game; now those types, should be deported, or pi$$ed-on.

We can all say that, but you know what? All the Canadian players look up to the stars of the NFL. Not sure if you saw the interview Michael Irvin conducted with Nic Demski, but Irvin was his hero growing up. So I guess that makes the majority of Canadian players wannabes too?

[AngeloV]

Bombers going with only one kicker - Liegghio doing all jobs; this guy gets injured - trying to make a tackle or pulls a groin, early in the game, and the Bummers are likely done/finished. Ultra risky & myopic roster management IMO; don't want to see him injured - just sayin'.

Really no different than if Bede were to have gotten injured. Hagerty can't place kick, so Chad Kelly would have had to step in.

[AngeloV]

Very sad to see so many empty seats !!! Attendance has been miserable every stadium this season.

The game was officially a sell out. The empty seats were the result of 1,000 previously sold tickets went on resale.

[AngeloV]

Did anyone else see an illegal procedure on #51 when Winnipeg scored on 3rd and 1? Looked like he left early in real time and replay confirmed.

He was way ahead of the snap.

[AngeloV]

So if a slotback jumps 3 yards off-side and thus gets open for a TD, the play stands ?

Yes, if there is no initial flag.
Only penalties that are reviewable are PI, no yards and any major foul. If a flag is thrown, then command centre can chime in to determine if it's offside or procedure.

[Argo57]

He was way ahead of the snap.

100% Correct, wasn’t even close.

[AngeloV]

The offside call on Smith was meh

Agreed. He moved maybe 3 inches and stopped.

[AngeloV]

Brady Oliveira saves puppies in the off-season - ha, ha! Some of the colour commentating is pretty amusing!!




Yes, he works as a dog rescuer. I don't see anything funny about that. I love that he does that and will always have the highest respect for him.

[primetime31]

The Bombers team are hard to hate as they seem to have a number of good people in the organization including O'Shea. This is why it is even more significant that the Argos won tonight as the Bombers were the measuring stick of excellence in the league from a team and organizational standpoint.

[AngeloV]

OK, after replying to a series of posts, I have to say: F*CK Yeah.

I've see a ton of Argos teams over the years, but I have to say, this is my favourite most likable of all. So many great guys on this team that play for the team and not themselves, starting with their leaders MBT and Muamba. They have demonstrated how football is the ultimate of team sports.
Chad Kelly: What can you say. Great job in a very difficult situation. I'm sure it helped that the Bombers weren't expecting to see him in the game, so likely were not prepared for what he has to bring. But his quick decision making was very impressive. I absolutely love MBT as our QB, but if he does chose to ride off into the sunset, I would be happy for him to end his amazing football journey as a champ, and would be happy to see Kelly as #1 on the depth chart in 2023 providing they can get an experienced back up like Fajardo or Dane Evans (should Hamilton walk from him).
I really hope the Argos can bring back a majority of their starters for next year, especially their GTA talent. I think that plays a big role in team chemistry having all the local guys.
And yes, I was wrong. Keep9ing Cam Phillips in the line-up was the right decision. Props to Dinwiddie for sticking with him and Ambles who both made some big plays.
I will say once again, the turning point in the Argos season was the signing of Ryan Hunter. Head and shoulders better than anyone else that played LG this season, and props to the vet Philp Blake. The left side of the Argos O-line was amazing down the stretch and in the post season. No coincidence their running game took off after Hunter arrived.

We did it. We are champs again. Well deserved, and I have no negative comments about anyone on the team.

I understand many of 3 Down Nations contributors are crying tonight. :) Clowns never show the Argos any respect.

[RB957]

Yes, he works as a dog rescuer. I don't see anything funny about that. I love that he does that and will always have the highest respect for him.

100% agree. It shows the human side of CFL players and how much they contribute to their communities.

[Argo57]

Yes, he works as a dog rescuer. I don't see anything funny about that. I love that he does that and will always have the highest respect for him.

Hats off to Brady Oliveira, our pets make our lives so much more rewarding.
What he does for stray dogs should be celebrated!

[Stevoman]

What a wild finish! A bigger comeback than the 100+ fumble return against Calgary in 2017 with MBT out at the end, the penalty putting the ball back at the 41, the inexperienced Kelly leading them to a TD, the blocked punt and then us blocking a punt and finally an interception. An unorthodox way to win but is a WIN and another GREY CUP FOR THE WINNGEST TEAM IN CFL HISTORY.

So many great storylines...I'm still in shock but the Robbie Smith redemption storyline is as good as the Matt Black one in 2017!

[ArgoRavi]

The offside call on Smith was meh

They were talking about that one on X's and Argos too. I wasn't sure that he was offside. It was definitely a tough call against him. He had three sacks on the night but only one counted.

[ArgoRavi]

Argos could’ve taken back momentum with a quick TD but only came back with a FG

I think that was a key possession in this game. Give MBT a lot of credit too for moving that ball down for a FG with his thumb obviously hampering him greatly. He stopped the bleeding and gave the Argos a chance to win this game with that drive.

[ArgoRavi]

MBT hurt his thumb.

MBT has been the most durable QB in the game over the past few years and then this happened in the fourth quarter of the Grey Cup. The guy can't buy a break but his final drive was a key one with the FG and the Argos wouldn't have been in a position to win this game without him.

[ArgoRavi]

The decision to keep Cam Phillips in the lineup proved to be the right one.

My One Thing was Phillips scoring a TD and I was also looking for him to have his best game since returning from injury. He didn't get the TD but he had 4 key catches for 96 yards which was definitely his best game since his return. He stepped up on a night when Kurleigh Gittens Jr. didn't have a catch.

[ArgoRavi]

OK, after replying to a series of posts, I have to say: F*CK Yeah.

I've see a ton of Argos teams over the years, but I have to say, this is my favourite most likable of all. So many great guys on this team that play for the team and not themselves, starting with their leaders MBT and Muamba. They have demonstrated how football is the ultimate of team sports.
Chad Kelly: What can you say. Great job in a very difficult situation. I'm sure it helped that the Bombers weren't expecting to see him in the game, so likely were not prepared for what he has to bring. But his quick decision making was very impressive. I absolutely love MBT as our QB, but if he does chose to ride off into the sunset, I would be happy for him to end his amazing football journey as a champ, and would be happy to see Kelly as #1 on the depth chart in 2023 providing they can get an experienced back up like Fajardo or Dane Evans (should Hamilton walk from him).
I really hope the Argos can bring back a majority of their starters for next year, especially their GTA talent. I think that plays a big role in team chemistry having all the local guys.
And yes, I was wrong. Keep9ing Cam Phillips in the line-up was the right decision. Props to Dinwiddie for sticking with him and Ambles who both made some big plays.
I will say once again, the turning point in the Argos season was the signing of Ryan Hunter. Head and shoulders better than anyone else that played LG this season, and props to the vet Philp Blake. The left side of the Argos O-line was amazing down the stretch and in the post season. No coincidence their running game took off after Hunter arrived.

We did it. We are champs again. Well deserved, and I have no negative comments about anyone on the team.

I understand many of 3 Down Nations contributors are crying tonight. :) Clowns never show the Argos any respect.

Not sure I can say much in addition to this.

One of the things I really liked about this team and its coaching staff is that they kept trying to improve aspects of the game that struggled for much of the season and that paid off in recent weeks. In particular, the team struggled to run the ball until the arrival of Ryan Hunter and they had no return game until the Montreal game where they clinched first place. Javon Leake was finally healthy at that point and delivered a number of key kick returns late in the season and especially in the Grey Cup. That doesn't happen without the blocking improving considerably. Leake averaged almost 20 yards per punt return tonight which is incredible and set up both Toronto TDs with big returns.

[AngeloV]

There is a great low camera angle on the Robbie Smith blocked FG at the below link at the 20 second mark of the video. I am convinced, even if he didn't block the kick, it was going WAY wide left. Prukop did not turn the laces and the kick off the foot of Leiggio looked like a total shank pulled to his left. I don't want to diminish the great play and effort of Smith, but wow did it look like he shanked this kick badly.

https://www.cfl.ca/2022/11/21/gc-analysis-argos-victorious-in-grey-cup-109/

[ArgoGabe22]

I wonder what the full story was with MBT. Did they tape up his thumb and it just wasn’t going work with the gripping so he removed it? Or was he ready to go back in and they decided to stick with Kelly? Shame there wasn’t a dedicated Argos sideline reporter. Kelly move was a surprise, when it could’ve been explained to viewers much faster than it was.

[ArgoGabe22]

I wonder what the full story was with MBT. Did they tape up his thumb and it just wasn’t going work with the gripping so he removed it? Or was he ready to go back in and they decided to stick with Kelly? Shame there wasn’t a dedicated Argos sideline reporter. Kelly move was a surprise, when it could’ve been explained to viewers much faster than it was.

I just saw a video of MBT in the locker room and his thumb is quite bandaged up post game so it’s pretty evident he couldn’t play.

[OV Argo]

Really no different than if Bede were to have gotten injured. Hagerty can't place kick, so Chad Kelly would have had to step in.

Maybe so, but I guarantee you pretty well 99% of other pro kickers can dual kick and replace the injured other guy if need be in a game; be a different story if the one kicker only thinking team had another guy on the roster with kicking skills (eg. Dave Stala - 1000 yard receiver and could both punt & place-kick very well); maybe the Bummers have one of those types ... if not . big risky roster thinking, IMO

[OV Argo]

We can all say that, but you know what? All the Canadian players look up to the stars of the NFL. Not sure if you saw the interview Michael Irvin conducted with Nic Demski, but Irvin was his hero growing up. So I guess that makes the majority of Canadian players wannabes too?


You don't get; unless you are saying Canadian football players, including guys in the CFL, go around bad-mouthing or mocking the CFL and the Canadian game ? Fine & dandy if a lot of young Canadian players look up to NFL stars - great football talent and the most hyped football league by far, so no surprise at all.


And BTW - kudos to the Argos coaches and their Canadian talent as big parts of this Argo GC win; Henoc, Robbie Smith, Andrew Harris, the O-line. The coaching staff has more faith in their Canadian players than most CFL teams - at least 11 Argo Nationals either started or else played plenty or reps on O & D in the GC win; as opposed to Walters & O'Shea and their 7 only need apply GOB schtick. The Bummers are going in the opposite direction than the Argos in this department - the Bummers draft last year was a joke IMO; while the Argos got stronger by adding Canadian talent not just ear-marked as back-ups or special teamers, and want Canadians to be able to play anywhere or be key parts of the team.

[gilthethrill]

Still in a state of shock as I write this. I was telling people all week that the Argos would “Surprise” Winnipeg.
Lots of hate for Bede. “Experts” in the media are quick to point out his low FG%. The fact that Dinwiddie has faith in him to attempt longer FGs attributes to that stat. Kicking in the cold was difficult for both kickers last night. His KOs land very deep and he can also Punt at a high level. I hope Bede isn’t “Dumped” in the offseason.

As for Banks, he was brought in to help with the Grey Cup. He did just that. As for his penalty for mouthing off to the official, how often do you see that go uncalled? Glad Speedy got his Ring with the Argos. Lets be happy for that.

Robbie Smith was a Beast last night, but if he doesn’t make that FG block (Yes Angelo V, Leggio shanked it pretty bad), he would be run out of town as well due to a lousy Offsides call, an unfortunate Facemask call and allowing Grant to get a lane on his Punt return TD.

Enjoy the victory. Hopefully the team isn’t faced with a pile of defections and we can enjoy as much continuity as he CFL allows.

[OV Argo]

Still in a state of shock as I write this. I was telling people all week that the Argos would “Surprise” Winnipeg.
Lots of hate for Bede. “Experts” in the media are quick to point out his low FG%. The fact that Dinwiddie has faith in him to attempt longer FGs attributes to that stat. Kicking in the cold was difficult for both kickers last night. His KOs land very deep and he can also Punt at a high level. I hope Bede isn’t “Dumped” in the offseason.

As for Banks, he was brought in to help with the Grey Cup. He did just that. As for his penalty for mouthing off to the official, how often do you see that go uncalled? Glad Speedy got his Ring with the Argos. Lets be happy for that.

Robbie Smith was a Beast last night, but if he doesn’t make that FG block (Yes Angelo V, Leggio shanked it pretty bad), he would be run out of town as well due to a lousy Offsides call, an unfortunate Facemask call and allowing Grant to get a lane on his Punt return TD.

Enjoy the victory. Hopefully the team isn’t faced with a pile of defections and we can enjoy as much continuity as he CFL allows.

Robbie Smith's off-side was marginal, if at all; the facemask was totally unintentional, and if he doesn't get there, maybe Collaros completes a big pass play instead; the punt cover lane thing, we don't really know (nor does a clown like Suitor) and guys who had real shots at the tackle whiffed.

The Argos showed strong to overcome really dumb penalties by - Banks (mouthing off) and Hunter (late hit on Jefferson) that could have been very costly.

[ArgoGabe22]

Still in a state of shock as I write this. I was telling people all week that the Argos would “Surprise” Winnipeg.
Lots of hate for Bede. “Experts” in the media are quick to point out his low FG%. The fact that Dinwiddie has faith in him to attempt longer FGs attributes to that stat. Kicking in the cold was difficult for both kickers last night. His KOs land very deep and he can also Punt at a high level. I hope Bede isn’t “Dumped” in the offseason.

As for Banks, he was brought in to help with the Grey Cup. He did just that. As for his penalty for mouthing off to the official, how often do you see that go uncalled? Glad Speedy got his Ring with the Argos. Lets be happy for that.

Robbie Smith was a Beast last night, but if he doesn’t make that FG block (Yes Angelo V, Leggio shanked it pretty bad), he would be run out of town as well due to a lousy Offsides call, an unfortunate Facemask call and allowing Grant to get a lane on his Punt return TD.

Enjoy the victory. Hopefully the team isn’t faced with a pile of defections and we can enjoy as much continuity as he CFL allows.

Some were saying this is the weakest Kicker matchup in the CFL. I remember Nik Lewis saying Bede is mentally weak.

As for the official, he looked like he was on a power trip throwing that flag and then pointing at Banks.

[gilthethrill]

Robbie Smith's off-side was marginal, if at all; the facemask was totally unintentional, and if he doesn't get there, maybe Collaros completes a big pass play instead; the punt cover lane thing, we don't really know (nor does a clown like Suitor) and guys who had real shots at the tackle whiffed.

The Argos showed strong to overcome really dumb penalties by - Banks (mouthing off) and Hunter (late hit on Jefferson) that could have been very costly.

Remember when there was “Unintentional Facemask” penalty that was 5 yards? I actually thought that was a good rule. Oddly I had no issue with Hunter hitting Jefferson. I thought it might send a message that he wasn’t the biggest guy on the field.

[1971GreyCup]

Robbie Smith deserves some award, despite his penalty and punt coverage. Just to come back and respond right after thinking you might have just cost your team

Robbie Smith got the team “player of the game” award presented at the team party last night.

[ArgoRavi]

And BTW - kudos to the Argos coaches and their Canadian talent as big parts of this Argo GC win; Henoc, Robbie Smith, Andrew Harris, the O-line. The coaching staff has more faith in their Canadian players than most CFL teams - at least 11 Argo Nationals either started or else played plenty or reps on O & D in the GC win; as opposed to Walters & O'Shea and their 7 only need apply GOB schtick. The Bummers are going in the opposite direction than the Argos in this department - the Bummers draft last year was a joke IMO; while the Argos got stronger by adding Canadian talent not just ear-marked as back-ups or special teamers, and want Canadians to be able to play anywhere or be key parts of the team.

Focusing on Canadian - and especially local - talent has been a huge part of Pinball's plan for this team. He particularly wants a lot of local talent as they are more likely to stay committed to the team long-term. The Argos have drafted better than anyone in recent years - even going back to Jim Popp's final year as GM - and have the best Canadian talent in the league. There used to be a saying that the team with the best Canadian talent wins the Grey Cup. That certainly applied this year.

[ArgoRavi]

Still in a state of shock as I write this. I was telling people all week that the Argos would “Surprise” Winnipeg.
Lots of hate for Bede. “Experts” in the media are quick to point out his low FG%. The fact that Dinwiddie has faith in him to attempt longer FGs attributes to that stat. Kicking in the cold was difficult for both kickers last night. His KOs land very deep and he can also Punt at a high level. I hope Bede isn’t “Dumped” in the offseason.

Four decades ago, if your FG kicker was making 60% of their kicks, that was acceptable. Even going back 15 years, making 70% or so was good enough. Now, the expectations are for 80% plus and Bede was a little short of that this year after a very strong year last year. As you say, nobody attempts more longer kicks than Bede though, as he has the strongest leg in football IMO.

While he didn't have his best game last night, he still made five huge kicks - three FGs and two converts and also added a key rouge on the 36 yarder he missed. I don't blame him for the block, which was a phenomenal play by Hallett as much as anything, and I think the wind was a challenge last night. It would be foolish to move away from Bede IMO.

[ArgoRavi]

Remember when there was “Unintentional Facemask” penalty that was 5 yards? I actually thought that was a good rule. Oddly I had no issue with Hunter hitting Jefferson. I thought it might send a message that he wasn’t the biggest guy on the field.

The NFL has had that 5 yard "Unintentional Facemask" penalty but I don't ever recall the CFL having such a penalty. Having said that, I have often thought that is one of the few rules the NFL has that may be a good idea for the CFL to adopt.

[OV Argo]

Focusing on Canadian - and especially local - talent has been a huge part of Pinball's plan for this team. He particularly wants a lot of local talent as they are more likely to stay committed to the team long-term. The Argos have drafted better than anyone in recent years - even going back to Jim Popp's final year as GM - and have the best Canadian talent in the league. There used to be a saying that the team with the best Canadian talent wins the Grey Cup. That certainly applied this year.


Agreed Ravi (and Gittens was even a non-factor sort of in the GC after his great year).

Looking forward to seeing Dionte Knight or Dan Adeboboye, Nield & Brissett or some other young Argo Canadians or draft picks contribute to the team in the future.

[OV Argo]

Four decades ago, if your FG kicker was making 60% of their kicks, that was acceptable. Even going back 15 years, making 70% or so was good enough. Now, the expectations are for 80% plus and Bede was a little short of that this year after a very strong year last year. As you say, nobody attempts more longer kicks than Bede though, as he has the strongest leg in football IMO.

While he didn't have his best game last night, he still made five huge kicks - three FGs and two converts and also added a key rouge on the 36 yarder he missed. I don't blame him for the block, which was a phenomenal play by Hallett as much as anything, and I think the wind was a challenge last night. It would be foolish to move away from Bede IMO.


I'd have to disagree a bit.

Bede has a cannon of a leg, but if he cannot become much more consistent in FG kicking he needs to be replaced at that job IMO; they could find a young kicker with a super accurate leg especially for attempts from 45 and in (like Paredes has been or that young guy the Ticats came up with this year), and still perhaps keep Bede as punter (Haggerty has been very good though) and to do kick-offs or the 55+ yard FG attempts that not many kickers have the leg for. I even believe the kicking game is so important in the CFL I would consider dressing 3 kickers (more important than a 5th string LB who only plays special teams IMO - where was that guy to stop Grant yesterday ;o) ) Bede makes those early FGs in the GC and there was no need for heart-stopping drama that put the game in jeopardy.

[AngeloV]

The NFL has had that 5 yard "Unintentional Facemask" penalty but I don't ever recall the CFL having such a penalty. Having said that, I have often thought that is one of the few rules the NFL has that may be a good idea for the CFL to adopt.

It was a good rule, but the NFL no longer has that rule either. I guess it left too much to interpretation. The 5 yard variety came if a player grabbed and released the mask immediately without pulling on it. That is really hard to determine intent.

[Will]

In 2017, it was Matt Black who was the hero, and that was after having been released earlier in the season. In 2022, it was Robbie Smith who was the hero, and that was after he had taken a potentially devastating penalty minutes earlier. I don't know who is a free agent, but it would be nice to come back with a DE corps consisting of Ja'Gared Davis, Shane Ray and Robbie Smith.

[ArgoRavi]

You have to love MBT: https://3downnation.com/2022/11/21/i-hope-he-comes-back-mcleod-bethel-thompsons-future-uncertain-following-argos-grey-cup-win/

[OV Argo]

You have to love MBT: https://3downnation.com/2022/11/21/i-hope-he-comes-back-mcleod-bethel-thompsons-future-uncertain-following-argos-grey-cup-win/

Gotta admit: MBT is a pretty cool dude! - talking up CFL talent and the game (to inform the ignorant / NFL fan-boy types up here); speaking up for the changes or improvements that could help (and that clown Ambrosia & the BOGooofs don't get); and, sporting retro Argo gear !!!

[ArgoRavi]

Gotta admit: MBT is a pretty cool dude! - talking up CFL talent and the game (to inform the ignorant / NFL fan-boy types up here); speaking up for the changes or improvements that could help (and that clown Ambrosia & the BOGooofs don't get); and, sporting retro Argo gear !!!

MBT has a helluva collection of retro Argo gear.

[ArgoGabe22]

Chad Kelly was on 1050 today around 1:30pm. Didn’t listen. Hopefully they have a clip of it or an easy to find link.

[Will]

I listened and usually TSN 1050 posts their audio stuff later in the day.

Henoc was on First Up this morning as well.

[OV Argo]

MBT has a helluva collection of retro Argo gear.

I left & lost an Argo cap in a classroom at Carleton U circa early 80s, or was it late 70s ? ... :o( Pay lots to be able to get it back.

Argo v-neck, uniform style shirt (#7 - Joe Theismann) from the 70s sometime, is I believe my oldest surviving Argo gear/souvenir .

[ArgoGabe22]

MBT has a helluva collection of retro Argo gear.

Maybe over the off-season, I will document my collection if people are interested.

["Issues"Mcgee]

Chad Kelly was on 1050 today around 1:30pm. Didn’t listen. Hopefully they have a clip of it or an easy to find link.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050

It's all there.

[argotom]

Awesome GC game, likely one of the top five finishes of all time.
Have to admit eating some humble pie with MBT.
I did not think the man had the ability to lead this team, but time proved me wrong.
I hope he comes back next year as he is a true warrior.
I would also like to see and hopefully the coach will slot Kelly with more packages, just like on Sunday which was forced due to injury.

[ArgoGabe22]

I would also like to see and hopefully the coach will slot Kelly with more packages, just like on Sunday which was forced due to injury.

Ben Grant, who admits he knows nothing, believes Kelly with start for the Argos next season.

[OV Argo]

Ben Grant, who admits he knows nothing, believes Kelly with start for the Argos next season.

Handed the job without real TC competition? - big mistake IMO.

[Will]

Ben Grant, who admits he knows nothing, believes Kelly with start for the Argos next season.

I think he will too.

[ArgoRavi]

Handed the job without real TC competition? - big mistake IMO.

Assuming that MBT retires which I am starting to believe is likely, the Argos will also have Ben Holmes back, whom they appear to be high on, and I would imagine that they will sign a veteran also. I suspect that there will be competition but Kelly likely has the inside track.

[Will]

Assuming that MBT retires which I am starting to believe is likely, the Argos will also have Ben Holmes back, whom they appear to be high on, and I would imagine that they will sign a veteran also. I suspect that there will be competition but Kelly likely has the inside track.

I have no problem with a veteran being brought in (assuming MBT retires). After all, Kelly's sample size is small at this time. Bo Levi Mitchell will likely tie up too many other vital resources though.

[AngeloV]

Assuming that MBT retires which I am starting to believe is likely, the Argos will also have Ben Holmes back, whom they appear to be high on, and I would imagine that they will sign a veteran also. I suspect that there will be competition but Kelly likely has the inside track.

Just curious. What makes you think they are high on a QB that was cut in the USFL? I think Holmes was just available more than they are high on him.

[Will]

Just curious. What makes you think they are high on a QB that was cut in the USFL? I think Holmes was just available more than they are high on him.

I know Ben Grant is high on him, but not sure if he's spoken to anyone within the organization on Holmes.

[AngeloV]

I know Ben Grant is high on him, but not sure if he's spoken to anyone within the organization on Holmes.

Love Ben Grant, but he puts a positive spin on everything. There is no way to tell if a guy has a future based on running 5 or 6 plays per practice. Kelly runs all scout team, so other than seeing him throw one on ones, there is nothing to show he has a future. To me, getting cut from a USFL contract tells a bigger story. Argos just needed an emergency QB. That’s the only reason he was even here.

[ArgoGabe22]

Sounds like this is the first time its been reported, but Chad Kelly says he was drug tested immediately after the game. "Random". Nothing really juicy from this interview, other than he believes he's better than 50% of NFL starting QBs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4cJbGxslJ8

[ArgoRavi]

Just curious. What makes you think they are high on a QB that was cut in the USFL? I think Holmes was just available more than they are high on him.

I think I was confusing Ben Grant being high on Holmes, as Will pointed out, with the Argos being high on him. Or I just assumed that both were high on him.

[ArgoRavi]

Love Ben Grant, but he puts a positive spin on everything. There is no way to tell if a guy has a future based on running 5 or 6 plays per practice. Kelly runs all scout team, so other than seeing him throw one on ones, there is nothing to show he has a future. To me, getting cut from a USFL contract tells a bigger story. Argos just needed an emergency QB. That’s the only reason he was even here.

I think that Ben is high on him after looking at his college footage more than anything.

[primetime31]

Just curious. What makes you think they are high on a QB that was cut in the USFL? I think Holmes was just available more than they are high on him.

When evaluating players from other leagues, it is hard to know what being cut from the USFL means. We don't know yet what the purpose of the USFL is from a playing standpoint. Is it's purpose going to be a developmental league for the NFL or is it positioning itself to be a standalone unique league with its own style of traits and play? From what I was able to watch of the league, it seems that it is leaning heavily toward the former. Perhaps Holmes didn't fit the skillsets that they are looking for in the quarterbacks for this purpose.

As we know with these things, time will ultimately tell us the real answer.

[Rich]

I think that Ben is high on him after looking at his college footage more than anything.

I’m a little surprised anyone can even find footage of Nassau Community College games. Maybe it’s video taken from Holmes’ Mum’s phone. :-)

[Rich]

Kelly's sample size is small at this time.

Nathan Rourke’s sample size wasn’t much bigger when he was anointed #1QB. Sometimes you gotta go all in if you really believe in a guy. Let him prepare in the off-season building confidence knowing he’s the Man.

I think Kelly can do everything Rourke can do except Kelly has a bigger, stronger frame. But I think it’s a little early for this conversation.

[gilthethrill]

When evaluating players from other leagues, it is hard to know what being cut from the USFL means. We don't know yet what the purpose of the USFL is from a playing standpoint. Is it's purpose going to be a developmental league for the NFL or is it positioning itself to be a standalone unique league with its own style of traits and play? From what I was able to watch of the league, it seems that it is leaning heavily toward the former. Perhaps Holmes didn't fit the skillsets that they are looking for in the quarterbacks for this purpose.

As we know with these things, time will ultimately tell us the real answer.

Ben Holmes was released by the NJ Generals after breaking his foot in TC. He was subsequently replaced by “Failed Spring Football League Hall of Fame” QB Luis Perez.
It should be noted that Holmes was also signed and quickly released by both Edmonton and Montreal this past season.

[Argo57]

Nathan Rourke’s sample size wasn’t much bigger when he was anointed #1QB. Sometimes you gotta go all in if you really believe in a guy. Let him prepare in the off-season building confidence knowing he’s the Man.

I think Kelly can do everything Rourke can do except Kelly has a bigger, stronger frame. But I think it’s a little early for this conversation.

I agree, sometimes you have to look long term and go with the younger guy.
There will be rough times in doing so but that is part of his development.
Having said this I think the Argonauts must also sign a capable veteran backup QB.

[AngeloV]

I agree, sometimes you have to look long term and go with the younger guy.
There will be rough times in doing so but that is part of his development.
Having said this I think the Argonauts must also sign a capable veteran backup QB.

The only problem with going with the younger guy in the CFL, is the possibility of him still looking to go to the NFL. Then it becomes another new chapter with another new QB. Kelley said on a podcast the other day that he is better than half the starting QB's in the NFL. He may be right. I'm just worried he will start for us next year and look to move on. Having said that, if MBT retires, I would be excited to see what Kelley does as QB1.

[Argo57]

The only problem with going with the younger guy in the CFL, is the possibility of him still looking to go to the NFL. Then it becomes another new chapter with another new QB. Kelley said on a podcast the other day that he is better than half the starting QB's in the NFL. He may be right. I'm just worried he will start for us next year and look to move on. Having said that, if MBT retires, I would be excited to see what Kelley does as QB1.

Except for the fact Kelly is 28 years old has has an “interesting” past.
I suspect he plays in the CFL or doesn’t play at all.

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Except for the fact Kelly is 28 years old has has an “interesting” past.
I suspect he plays in the CFL or doesn’t play at all.
It will depend on who his agent is and what type of relationships they have with NFL teams.Kelly could very well get courtesy workout(s) this offseason.
The Argonauts and CFL are not as resistant to NFL opportunities as they used to be.It will be an interesting offseason regardless.

[OV Argo]

Plenty of gossip on CFL forums about Bo Mitchell joining the Argos ? I really hope he ends up in the Hammer instead.

[AngeloV]

Plenty of gossip on CFL forums about Bo Mitchell joining the Argos ? I really hope he ends up in the Hammer instead.

I honestly believe there is no chance the Argos pursue him. I keep hearing people say that the Argos offered him a huge contract last time he hit the market insinuating there is interest. What these people fail to mention is that it was Jim Popp who offered him that contract and they have a completely different football ops group now.

[OV Argo]

I honestly believe there is no chance the Argos pursue him. I keep hearing people say that the Argos offered him a huge contract last time he hit the market insinuating there is interest. What these people fail to mention is that it was Jim Popp who offered him that contract and they have a completely different football ops group now.

The gossip seems to suggest that BLM getting to work with ex-Stumps connections - Dinwiddie as Argo chief; receivers Daniels, Ambles (maybe Eric Rogers?) would be a big lure for him to come to TO ?

Hope u are right though.

Vet QB #1 one on my Argo wish list would be Masoli; that's IF he is at least 95% recovered from his cheap-shot injury this year; and of course, if the new Ottawa HC decides not to go with him ?

[ArgoRavi]

Except for the fact Kelly is 28 years old has has an “interesting” past.
I suspect he plays in the CFL or doesn’t play at all.

The NFL rarely looks at CFL players who are older than 27. The only ones I can think of over the past few decades are Dieter Brock and Doug Flutie although Warren Moon may have been around that age too. Having said this, QB may be the one position that the NFL would look at an "older" player but I feel like Kelly has likely exhausted his opportunities in that league.

[ArgoRavi]

The gossip seems to suggest that BLM getting to work with ex-Stumps connections - Dinwiddie as Argo chief; receivers Daniels, Ambles (maybe Eric Rogers?) would be a big lure for him to come to TO ?

Hope u are right though.

Vet QB #1 one on my Argo wish list would be Masoli; that's IF he is at least 95% recovered from his cheap-shot injury this year; and of course, if the new Ottawa HC decides not to go with him ?

I suspect that Bo Levi would love to play for the Argos - he was really pumping their tires last week - but I am unsure that he is a great fit at this point.

[paulwoods13]

I honestly believe there is no chance the Argos pursue him. I keep hearing people say that the Argos offered him a huge contract last time he hit the market insinuating there is interest. What these people fail to mention is that it was Jim Popp who offered him that contract and they have a completely different football ops group now.

I think that pursuit was driven as much by Manning as it was by Popp. That doesn't mean it would happen again, but I do think it's possible they pursue him, for their own purposes and to keep him away from Hamilton.

[paulwoods13]

Vet QB #1 one on my Argo wish list would be Masoli; that's IF he is at least 95% recovered from his cheap-shot injury this year; and of course, if the new Ottawa HC decides not to go with him ?

I agree. I really like Masoli, both as a QB and as a person/leader. IMO he is cut from the same cloth as MBT. And watching MBT since 2019 has convinced me that personality/leadership is as or more important than pure skill at the QB position. That's a major reason I am not even close to being sold on "Swag" Kelly as our next QB.

["Issues"Mcgee]

I agree. I really like Masoli, both as a QB and as a person/leader. IMO he is cut from the same cloth as MBT. And watching MBT since 2019 has convinced me that personality/leadership is as or more important than pure skill at the QB position. That's a major reason I am not even close to being sold on "Swag" Kelly as our next QB.

Personally I'm sold on Kelly. He already looks better than Arbuckle and Fajardo. Is there only a small sample of his abilities? Yes, but a 63 yard drive to a touchdown in the Grey Cup game is a very potent sample, if that makes any sense at all.

It's a shame his nickname is "Swag" Kelly though. I would have called him "Rad" Kelly. Would have been way better.

[Stevoman]

Based on his comments during Grey Cup week and his lack of attendance at the trophy presentation and the celebration yesterday, I'd really be surprised if MBT is back next year. Not sure if Kelly can be the guy but hope there's lots of competition and see who rises to the top.

[Antwon]

Based on his comments during Grey Cup week and his lack of attendance at the trophy presentation and the celebration yesterday, I'd really be surprised if MBT is back next year. Not sure if Kelly can be the guy but hope there's lots of competition and see who rises to the top.

Yep that was my read on MBT. As for BLM, I hope they pass as much as I think it would be a good fit. I'd like to see them go all in on Kelly. Extend his contract, and make him the marquee guy for the franchise as the next BLM or Collaros of the league. I think he has the tools and RD could be the coach to take him there.

[ArgoRavi]

I agree. I really like Masoli, both as a QB and as a person/leader. IMO he is cut from the same cloth as MBT. And watching MBT since 2019 has convinced me that personality/leadership is as or more important than pure skill at the QB position. That's a major reason I am not even close to being sold on "Swag" Kelly as our next QB.

I don't disagree with you about Kelly, Paul. I truly hope that he is maturing but I just don't know. He is definitely a far different personality than the likes of MBT and Masoli. There's something Manziel-like about him that scares me a little but time will tell. I hope that he becomes the star that so many believe he can be.