Time may have come to consider Michael Pinball Clemons as the next CFL Commissione

[1971GreyCup]

Once the league realizes that promises don’t equal outcome, the league should approach “Pinball” as the commissioner. Here’s a candidate that has quietly gone 7-0 at Grey Cups. I wonder what more Mike needs to accomplish at the team level. The country knows & loves Mike.

[bannedforlife]

I will likely be the only guy on this website who doesn't think that is a good idea. I want to see a ruthless businessman, somebody who will stare down the Bell/Rogers unholy alliance and do what is best long term for the league. Instead of building bridges (or pretending to as of this moment) I think it's time to start blowing up bridges.

Everyone thinks there are no realistic options other than TSN, it's time to be bold or the league will slowly wither into oblivion if they stay the TSN only course. If the status quo remains more and more people will be unable to view the broadcasts. I haven't been able to watch a game at home via TSN for at least 16 years.

[1971GreyCup]

I will likely be the only guy on this website who doesn't think that is a good idea. I want to see a ruthless businessman, somebody who will stare down the Bell/Rogers unholy alliance and do what is best long term for the league. Instead of building bridges (or pretending to as of this moment) I think it's time to start blowing up bridges.

Everyone thinks there are no realistic options other than TSN, it's time to be bold or the league will slowly wither into oblivion if they stay the TSN only course. If the status quo remains more and more people will be unable to view the broadcasts. I haven't been able to watch a game at home via TSN for at least 16 years.

There is no question that TSN is one of the biggest issues facing the future of the CFL. Trust me, Mike’s success isn’t due to him being likeable, but Mike identifying the big issues and addressing them.

[AngeloV]

I will defer to 1971 here as he knows Pinner personally more than anyone here can. My only reservations about him becoming Commissioner would be the yahoos across the league thinking he would give the Argos preferential treatment. I would hate to see his reputation questioned.

[1971GreyCup]

Amen Angelo. Mike’s got huge shoulders too. I’d love for him to stay on with the Argos and get promoted to President. That would be the next logical step that he’s deserved. Selfish on my part.

But Mike being 7-0, I’d love to give him the choice of roles. At the Grey Cup Randy was booed by a large contingent of CFL fans. Not good for the league.

[AngeloV]

Amen Angelo. Mike’s got huge shoulders too. I’d love for him to stay on with the Argos and get promoted to President. That would be the next logical step that he’s deserved. Selfish on my part.

But Mike being 7-0, I’d love to give him the choice of roles. At the Grey Cup Randy was booed by a large contingent of CFL fans. Not good for the league.

I agree. I want a change of commissioner too. Selfishly, I want Pinner to run the Argos for as long as possible. Hopefully sooner rather than later as President.

["Issues"Mcgee]

A big part of Pinball's success as a GM is his ability to attract talent, and to get otherwise unfocused or hot-headed players to buy into the team philosophy. This has been extremely valuable for the Argos.

I hope he continues as GM.

[Will]

A big part of Pinball's success as a GM is his ability to attract talent, and to get otherwise unfocused or hot-headed players to buy into the team philosophy. This has been extremely valuable for the Argos.

I hope he continues as GM.

This and I feel that the commissioner's position comes with a significant amount of politics which is something I would prefer Pinball stay away from.

[1971GreyCup]

A big part of Pinball's success as a GM is his ability to attract talent, and to get otherwise unfocused or hot-headed players to buy into the team philosophy. This has been extremely valuable for the Argos.

I hope he continues as GM.

Excellent point about attracting unorthodox players!

Maybe Mike’s biggest strength is implementing his “vision”, whether it’s at the individual level or organizational level. Something that I think has been missing at the leagues level” for quite a while.

[1971GreyCup]

I’d like to give Mike the choice on that one.

[1971GreyCup]

This and I feel that the commissioner's position comes with a significant amount of politics which is something I would prefer Pinball stay away from.

I’d like to Mike the choice.

[OV Argo]

I will likely be the only guy on this website who doesn't think that is a good idea. I want to see a ruthless businessman, somebody who will stare down the Bell/Rogers unholy alliance and do what is best long term for the league. Instead of building bridges (or pretending to as of this moment) I think it's time to start blowing up bridges.

Everyone thinks there are no realistic options other than TSN, it's time to be bold or the league will slowly wither into oblivion if they stay the TSN only course. If the status quo remains more and more people will be unable to view the broadcasts. I haven't been able to watch a game at home via TSN for at least 16 years.


Agreed. Very well said, IMO.

Pinner should stay as leader to steer the good ship Argo. He may not be a real tough & sharp business mind who could deal with weasels like Bell/Rogers and all the other CFL enemies out there.

The CFL Commish should ideally be a person who know business with lots of connections AND who has grown up with Canadian football - watching, playing ... a fan who has real vision of what makes Canadian football what it is.

Way better TV deal and other business/income smart decisions; get to a 10th team in Atlantic Canada; entrench Canadian rules AND Canadian players as an integral part of the game/league with further erosion totally off the table, and make some reversals ( eg. put the hash-marks back to where they belong - no more $ucking up to some of the American simpletons in charge of CFL offences; return Canadian content to 50% plus of CFL rosters). Tough challenges; but doing nothing and going backwards as in under that clown Ambrosia is heading for disaster.

[Will]

I’d like to give Mike the choice on that one.

Of course it's his choice, but the purpose of a discussion board is to allow people to give their own two cents.

[bannedforlife]

Entrench Canadian rules AND Canadian players as an integral part of the game/league with further erosion totally off the tableAgree with this, league must be more Canadianized rather than marching towards yet another WFL/USFL/WLAF/XFL 12.0 failure.

[Scooter McCray]

I want a new commissioner. He deserved to be booed, and notice how the Argo players picked up the trophy on their own. They did not let Ambrosie pick it up and hand it to them.

But I want Pinball to run the Argos as President. I think he can do more good for the CFL in the short term rebuilding the Argo brand and making them relevant again in the GTA.

[RB957]

At the Grey Cup Randy was booed by a large contingent of CFL fans. Not good for the league.

That shouldn't be shocking.... look at what happens anytime Gary Bettman or Roger Goodell get near a crowd. The other commissioners as well, to a lesser extent. That part is a reality in most sports and comes with the territory. Unfortunately, as a Commissioner, your primary loyalty will have to be to the league's owners, and that doesn't necessarily coincide with what is best for fans. Sad but true. For that reason alone, I would not wish this on Pinball, as intriguing an idea as it is. He shouldn't have to shovel that kind of shiite, and like Will has said above, too much politics involved.

[1971GreyCup]

No question the CFL Commissioner job is thankless, Uber-political and perhaps an impossible task to accomplish. Mike definitely isn’t the grovelling type either. Maybe he wouldn’t even last a month. But if there’s a chance he wanted to, and only took on the job on his terms, substantial progress could happen. Somebody’s gotta move the needle at CFL HQ.

[primetime31]

Perhaps with the new blood at the governors level in the form of Cui, Doman and even Stern in Montreal (as short-lived as that might be), perhaps the personalities will be more amenable to change and advancing the league as a whole. I understand the sentiment on both sides of the argument and am leaning toward 1971's position but if there is someone else out there who can help turn the ship around then I am all for it.

[bannedforlife]

I don't know the man, and again I'll be the only guy who will say it but if Mike is involved in an organization that cannot regularly attract over 15k fans I don't think he is the man for the job. So, either he is rowing against the tide and his own organization or he is just on the football side and attendance isn't his area, I would still have a problem with this. Same goes for Cui, he has been going in the right direction, but until that ship is righted under his watch, I couldn't recommend him either.

[1971GreyCup]

Everyone knows Mike’s story.

Born black and raised in the projects of Dunedin, FL to a single mom.
Transformed himself into the epitome of success in pro sports and business through hard work.
He’s a wonderful father & husband.
As he says, he and his wife Diane are American by birth, Canadian by choice.

He brings a very unique background to a very difficult task. Having to deal with a diverse makeup including Board of Governors, owners, media, business partners, politicians, players and not to forget fans.


Mike truly is the embodiment of Rudyard Kipling’s poem “If.” Specifically:

“If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch.”

[bannedforlife]

No question the CFL Commissioner job is thankless, Uber-political and perhaps an impossible task to accomplish. Mike definitely isn’t the grovelling type either. Maybe he wouldn’t even last a month. But if there’s a chance he wanted to, and only took on the job on his terms, substantial progress could happen. Somebody’s gotta move the needle at CFL HQ.Somebody has to move the needle at Argos HQ first to get crowds where at least the team could be profitable. Sorry if I am going against most people's attitudes towards this but it is what it is.

[bannedforlife]

Everyone knows Mike’s story.

Born black and raised in the projects of Dunedin, FL to a single mom.
Transformed himself into the epitome of success in pro sports and business through hard work.
He’s a wonderful father & husband.
As he says, he and his wife Diane are American by birth, Canadian by choice.

He brings a very unique background to a very difficult task. Having to deal with a diverse makeup including Board of Governors, owners, media, business partners, politicians, players and not to forget fans.When I said I didn't know the man, I meant to meet him. I know the above story but because he is a good man doesn't mean he is the right man. I think the CFL commissionership has long been made up of good men: Gaudaur, Mitchell, Cohon and even Ambrosie. I was Ambrosie's biggest fan when he began, former player, successful businessman but he became political and wishy washy, that's not what the position needs, it needs an iron will and backbone and a willingness to be unpopular when difficult decisions arise.

[1971GreyCup]

I don't know the man, and again I'll be the only guy who will say it but if Mike is involved in an organization that cannot regularly attract over 15k fans I don't think he is the man for the job. So, either he is rowing against the tide and his own organization or he is just on the football side and attendance isn't his area, I would still have a problem with this. Same goes for Cui, he has been going in the right direction, but until that ship is righted under his watch, I couldn't recommend him either.

That’s a very good point, that I’ve thought about a lot. My conclusion is that if Mike was president for a reasonable period of time, I would concur. But as GM his job and influence is much more specific. Identifying, attracting talent that wins games and championships. From this perspective I’ve concluded a change at the top of the league and Mike has earned a shot.

[1971GreyCup]

When I said I didn't know the man, I meant to meet him. I know the above story but because he is a good man doesn't mean he is the right man. I think the CFL commissionership has long been made up of good men: Gaudaur, Mitchell, Cohon and even Ambrosie. I was Ambrosie's biggest fan when he began, former player, successful businessman but he became political and wishy washy, that's not what the position needs, it needs an iron will and backbone and a willingness to be unpopular when difficult decisions arise.

if you look back over five years ago on this thread, I argued vehemently against Ambrose’s selection for the reasons that turned out and at that time I made the same case to CFL BOG Chairman Jim Lawson and Argos BOG representative Dale Lastman. Even the, Mike was 5-0 with Grey Cups.

[bannedforlife]

if you look back over five years ago on this thread, I argued vehemently against Ambrose’s selection for the reasons that turned out and at that time I made the same case to CFL BOG Chairman Jim Lawson and Argos BOG representative Dale Lastman. Even the, Mike was 5-0 with Grey Cups.And the Argos have been 0-5 in everything else dragging down the league. The narrative being if the Argos are failing the league is failing.

I don't want to come across as a troll but most people who don't live in Toronto have a dislike for Toronto. But I want the Argos to do well because if they do well the league does well. Like it or not media and marketing for Canada is based in Toronto and when perceptions are bad for the Argos they are projected on the league.

Mike can put a football team together, that's great but can he put 27k people in BMO on a regular basis. Winning the Grey Cup left me feeling like Canada losing against Belgium, incomplete. Win the championship, but attract no crowds or put out a brilliant effort but still lose. Somebody has to fix that, if Mike's skills are transferable to being commissioner, let him fix the Argos' organization before attempting the league.

[1971GreyCup]

And the Argos have been 0-5 in everything else dragging down the league. The narrative being if the Argos are failing the league is failing.

I don't want to come across as a troll but most people who don't live in Toronto have a dislike for Toronto. But I want the Argos to do well because if they do well the league does well. Like it or not media and marketing for Canada is based in Toronto and when perceptions are bad for the Argos they are projected on the league.

Mike can put a football team together, that's great but can he put 27k people in BMO on a regular basis. Winning the Grey Cup left me feeling like Canada losing against Belgium, incomplete. Win the championship, but attract no crowds or put out a brilliant effort but still lose. Somebody has to fix that, if Mike's skills are transferable to being commissioner, let him fix the Argos' organization before attempting the league.

Of course, everyone is entitled to to their own opinion.

I am sure if I looked into Mike’s contract it doesn’t say win almost all the season games and championships AND raise the attendance. Eisenhower wasn’t told to win WWII AND do it in record time.

People outside Toronto do dislike Toronto, but I assure you all Canadians know and love “Pinball”. EVERYONE

I think if you gave “Pinball” the task to rebuild the fan base in Toronto too he’d do that. But he wasn’t given that task. We just asked him to win the GreyCup. Don’t move the bar afterwards.

[1971GreyCup]

By the way, this thread is to start the discussion. Sadly I don’t think change is coming anytime soon. So, let’s move Mike to President and broaden his mandate and put him in charge of attendance too. I don’t think attendance was a real problem when he was president last time.

[Will]

By the way, this thread is to start the discussion. Sadly I don’t think change is coming anytime soon. So, let’s move Mike to President and broaden his mandate and put him in charge of attendance too. I don’t think attendance was a real problem when he was president last time.

When did he last serve as President?

[bannedforlife]

I think if you gave “Pinball” the task to rebuild the fan base in Toronto too he’d do that. But he wasn’t given that task. We just asked him to win the GreyCup. Don’t move the bar afterwards.Then let's give him that chance, why wouldn't an organization do that. If he's your best man give him the shot at making the team profitable. I'm not blaming Mike for the attendance, I get that wasn't his job, but before giving him the domain over the rest of us (the league) give him the tools and let him "fix" his backyard first.

[bannedforlife]

I don’t think attendance was a real problem when he was president last time.And the Argos are the biggest proof that times (and the market) have changed. When every team in the league can average 24k (Ott, Ham, Mtl capacity) or over and be profitable we'd all be amazed how many league problems would disappear.

[1971GreyCup]

When did he last serve as President?

2001-2002 and took over a HC

[1971GreyCup]

Today Pinball made a very compelling case to be promoted to president and build a dynasty in Toronto. Sweeeet Spot!

[Will]

2001-2002 and took over a HC

Attendance wasn't great at the time although it was 100% not Pinball's fault

[RB957]

Somebody has to move the needle at Argos HQ first to get crowds where at least the team could be profitable. Sorry if I am going against most people's attitudes towards this but it is what it is.

This statement is true. But IMO, the solution is financial to a large degree. Doesn't matter who gets installed as President, if that person does not have a sufficient enough of a budget to really market the team and move that needle as you say. My future daughter-in-law works in marketing and having come to games with my son, has developed some strong opinions about what could be done to turn things around. But some of these will take money... and time. I am really befuddled that MLSE won't spend a bit more- and be strategic about it- to improve game day attendance, and thus improve profitability, when they seem to have no qualms about throwing money around in other areas of the company. How much money did the Leafs pay David Clarkson NOT to play. There was also a Raptors player, whose name I forget, who was in same position. They paid millions never expecting him to set foot on the court. That is what is so frustrating for me.

[bannedforlife]

And that sums up the frustration and why you see conspiracy theories . Why would you want to lose 6 million a year when you could spend maybe a million more and break even. And the worst part is there is no engagement. People ask these questions in forums and no company rep will come on and at least explain their side. Someone had to direct me to an interview saying some of the good things they were doing, was it publicized here, at one of the few Argo fansites? I actually have to beg for an Argo rep to tell me I'm wrong and correct me. And it hasn't happened yet.

If MLSE is such a great company as they seem to think they are, you would think: 1. They would consider the Argos a challenge to their mass marketing skills or 2 At least be humiliated by the shit job they have done at not moving the needle after so many years. No one is asking for 80k people, just 25k in a 5 million market area. A rookie, Doman has come in and done more in one year than their media conglomerate has done in a decade. Gary Stern's rambling tweets have probably done better

[paulwoods13]

And that sums up the frustration and why you see conspiracy theories . Why would you want to lose 6 million a year when you could spend maybe a million more and break even.

I think it's highly unlikely that spending an additional $1M on marketing would yield a 700% return. I wish it were otherwise, but if the Argos really are losing $6M per year, I'm pretty sure it would take a lot more than an additional $1M in spending to get them to break even (and of course the hill to climb would grow by whatever amount of additional spending takes place).

MLSE is less interested in turning an operating profit on its properties than in growing their enterprise value. How much spending would have to take place, and how much new revenue would have to be generated, to turn the Argos from a property worth maybe the same $5M it reportedly sold for more than once in the past, to a property worth ten times that?

[OV Argo]

And that sums up the frustration and why you see conspiracy theories . Why would you want to lose 6 million a year when you could spend maybe a million more and break even. And the worst part is there is no engagement. People ask these questions in forums and no company rep will come on and at least explain their side. Someone had to direct me to an interview saying some of the good things they were doing, was it publicized here, at one of the few Argo fansites? I actually have to beg for an Argo rep to tell me I'm wrong and correct me. And it hasn't happened yet.

If MLSE is such a great company as they seem to think they are, you would think: 1. They would consider the Argos a challenge to their mass marketing skills or 2 At least be humiliated by the shit job they have done at not moving the needle after so many years. No one is asking for 80k people, just 25k in a 5 million market area. A rookie, Doman has come in and done more in one year than their media conglomerate has done in a decade. Gary Stern's rambling tweets have probably done better

Yep - shows how gutless and useless MLSE are on anything Argos.

And again - accuse me of putting on a tin-foil hat - but, sorry, can't shake the idea that MLSE and Larry buying into the Argos was nothing to do with wanting to see the Argos and the CFL succeed in the GTA and overall, but more to have some control of pro gridiron football in the area to further their never ending love & quest for getting an American pro football team (NFL crack-pipe dream still going; XFL, USFL, whatever Mickey Mouse league is looking hip at the time). Of course they would never answer that question, but we'll see what happens with the Argos future, and maybe sooner than later.

[bannedforlife]

I think it's highly unlikely that spending an additional $1M on marketing would yield a 700% return. I wish it were otherwise, but if the Argos really are losing $6M per year,
MLSE is less interested in turning an operating profit on its properties than in growing their enterprise value. I didn't mean for one million to be taken literally as for their losses haven't they ranged from 6-12 million?

You're right about the enterprise value but WTF were they thinking when they bought the team? Did they think a CFL team would be worth 150 million? Or (insert conspiracy theory) did they figure someday they would tie in with an NFL wannabe league.

[bannedforlife]

And again - accuse me of putting on a tin-foil hat - but, sorry, can't shake the idea that MLSE and Larry buying into the Argos was nothing to do with wanting to see the Argos and the CFL succeed in the GTA and overall, but more to have some control of pro gridiron football in the area to further their never ending love & quest for getting an American pro football team (NFL crack-pipe dream still going; XFL, USFL, whatever Mickey Mouse league is looking hip at the time). Of course they would never answer that question, but we'll see what happens with the Argos future, and maybe sooner than later.They make it very difficult to think otherwise, especially with their stand on XFL. Thank God for the other owners.

["Issues"Mcgee]

They make it very difficult to think otherwise, especially with their stand on XFL. Thank God for the other owners.

It's just not going to happen. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. The only reason why a merger was even suggested is because the CFL was on hiatus.

[bannedforlife]

It's just not going to happen. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. The only reason why a merger was even suggested is because the CFL was on hiatus.There were two teams in favour of it Toronto and Calgary IIRC. I believe there was a rift at the BOG between Christmas Tree and everybody else. He was pissed the rest were too stupid not to go along with it. Stern stood up for him publicly out of respect. There was more to it than the league being on hold. If I have any of this wrong please correct me.

["Issues"Mcgee]

There were two teams in favour of it Toronto and Calgary IIRC. I believe there was a rift at the BOG between Christmas Tree and everybody else. He was pissed the rest were too stupid not to go along with it. Stern stood up for him publicly out of respect. There was more to it than the league being on hold. If I have any of this wrong please correct me.

I'm not saying you're wrong about any of the talks, I'm just saying it's not going to happen.

Heck, the XFL could do well in the upcoming season and that may lead to another round of talks about a merger.

It's still not going to happen though.

[ArgoRavi]

It's difficult to envision that bigger crowds would show up in February and March to watch the XFL in Toronto or Calgary. I really don't understand the owners in either of those markets wanting to merge with that league.

[bannedforlife]

It's difficult to envision that bigger crowds would show up in February and March to watch the XFL in Toronto or Calgary. I really don't understand the owners in either of those markets wanting to merge with that league.The end game is never to remain a spring league. They always want to take on the giant sooner or later, maybe in the hopes of a merger or a coexistence. Ironically a spring league over the long haul has a better shot at surviving except no one has stayed the course long enough to prove it. Maybe Christmas Tree and the other conglomeration CSEC never got that far in their thinking (playing in spring) but had their eye fixed on that elusive enterprise value.