Most overrated and underrated quarterbacks

[ArgoRavi]

To follow up on the discussion about Tom Clements, I was wondering what everyone's rankings would be for most overrated and underrated QB. I know that I could have posted this on the CFL forum but I figure that this will become Argo-related in some way anyway.

I will get the ball rolling. The most overrated QB is Buck Pierce whose stats and win/loss record in Winnipeg are not particularly special but he is still ranked as the 29th best player in the CFL by the media (re: recent TSN poll). The most underrated QB IMO is Roy Dewalt who was a fine QB for the B.C. Lions from 1980-87 before finishing his career with Winnipeg and Ottawa in '88. Dewalt led the Lions to two Grey Cup appearances (1983 and 1985), one Grey Cup victory (1985) and to first place finishes in the tough West Division in '83, '84, '85 and '87. He was the most valuable offensive player in the '83 all-star game as well. He never really got the credit that he deserved though even from Lions fans.

[paulwoods13]

Good topic, Ravi. Strangely, I think Condredge Holloway is underrated -- not by Argo fans who saw him play, but by others who follow the league. He was an incredible leader, had a superb arm and was tough as hell. He has two GC rings but may be underrated by some because he did not play in the 1976 game and was pulled at halftime in 1983 (after being deathly ill all week leading up to the game). But he more than anyone else, IMO, was the key to the success of the Run and Shoot (although he always gave the credit to Cedric Minter).

I do agree Dewalt was underrated.

Overrated is tough, partly because QB play was so different before the 1980s. If I had to choose one it might be Sonny Wade, who did well in big games but was really nothing special most of the time. In the modern era, I have argued in the past that Damon Allen is overrated by some. He had amazing longevity, a very strong arm and an outstanding record in Grey Cup games, but I think I could easily list at least 10 QBs I'd start over him if all were in their prime.

[1argoholic]

Damon was always good for just plain old dropping the ball at least once every couple of games.
Holloway was undereated all of his football playing days. Thankfully we loved him in TO.
I would say that Glenn, Khari Jones, Durrant and McManus have all been overrated. Those names just always seem to come to me when I think of this topic.
Foggie was underrated.
I really can't say Pierce is one or the other I just feel for the guy who always gives it his all and gets injured.

[Qman]

Ricky Ray ... as you guys are finding out "king of the check-down". Makes his stats look really good ... but unless you have a ton of great YAC-type receivers, you are not going to put up 7s, just 3s.

[1argoholic]

I'll take Ray thanks!!!!

[Gill The Thrill]

Damon was always good for just plain old dropping the ball at least once every couple of games.
Holloway was undereated all of his football playing days. Thankfully we loved him in TO.
I would say that Glenn, Khari Jones, Durrant and McManus have all been overrated. Those names just always seem to come to me when I think of this topic.
Foggie was underrated.
I really can't say Pierce is one or the other I just feel for the guy who always gives it his all and gets injured.

Damon Allen...king of the time count violations...like Paul I could also name at least 10 guys that I would take before him, but like you say about Pierce, I learned to really respect Allen for his gutsy play even when he wasn't on. I was close to the area where he hit that golf cart against BC in either '04 or '05...I believe he broke a record that day, either yards run by a pro player or yards passed by a pro player, can't remember off-hand.

Like you Argoholic, I find Pierce very entertaining to watch because he lays his body out and sacrifices himself, so I would not call him underated even if his stats are not superior. Ricky Foggie unfortunately was a dog when it came to him being a #1 Qb. He was great against injured teams who were not deep in the secondary, like that Hamilton defence, or Calgary defence in 1990 when he shredded them apart....That Argo team was also fully loaded in those games, Pinball, DK Smith, an upcoming star in Paul Massotti, possibly David Williams (or was he brought in during '91). I remember some great catches by another Canadian in Andrew Murray that year for the Argos. Matthews really got them going after a slow 3-5 start in 1990.

I have to say Gilbert Renfroe was overrated, or was disappointing in big games anyway...for crying out loud, he lost an East Final to Sean Salisbury...Ironically their careers would meet where they both competed for QB roles with the Vikings in 1991 and 1992. The Vikes had a carousel at QB with both of them on it between the 1990 and 1992, until they coincidentally picked up another ex-CFL QB in Warren Moon. I thought Renfroe dined on Gill Fenerty's running and in DK Smith's catching... I believe the Argos also picked up Jeff Boyd in '88 to compliment a strong receiving core...that '88 season pretty much ended for the boatmen when Fenerty broke his leg in a late season game at Calgary.

[Will]

I've always wondered about Roy Dewalt. Dave Randorf did a video describing his Grey Cup Memories and he stated that Roy Dewalt "wasn't Mr. Popularity in BC." I don't really understand the explanation for that; perhaps it is over the blowout losses to Edmonton in the 1986 and 1987 Western Finals or perhaps people simply think that Mervyn Fernandez made him look good. I even asked a BC fan one time for an explanation and he wasn't really able to provide me with one. I do know that he fell from grace pretty quickly after the 1987 season and split time between Winnipeg and an awful Ottawa team in 1988. I know that in 1983 the Argos were able to shut him down completely in the second half as well allowing Barnes to complete the comeback.

An observation about Holloway if I may. I don't know if this necessarily is evidence for him being overrated, but at least for his Toronto stint (1981-1986) he actually only played what appears to be one full season (1982); I suspect he made the majority of the starts in 1981, but the team was so bad that his statistics weren't very good. In 1982, when he won the MOP he had 4661 yards and 31 touchdowns. But, by 1983 the Argos had acquired Joe Barnes and O'Billovich wasn't afraid to use both QB's so his statistics take a hit there. The same goes for 1984, 1985 he gets hurt and by 1986 he's banged up by a bad o-line and is replaced by J.C Watts by seasons end. Again, not trying to take anything away from the man, but that's just something I observed.

Ricky Foggie unfortunately was a dog when it came to him being a #1 Qb. He was great against injured teams who were not deep in the secondary, like that Hamilton defence, or Calgary defence in 1990 when he shredded them apart....That Argo team was also fully loaded in those games, Pinball, DK Smith, an upcoming star in Paul Massotti, possibly David Williams (or was he brought in during '91). I remember some great catches by another Canadian in Andrew Murray that year for the Argos. Matthews really got them going after a slow 3-5 start in 1990.

As many have pointed out, letting Dunigan go was a huge mistake after the 1991 season. I suspect that the coaching staff felt that Foggie was competent enough to take over. Ravi has come forward and said that he felt the Argos would be fine with Foggie, but again just from a pure statistical perspective and reading game summaries from 1991 in the Star, I started to notice that Foggie wasn't as effective towards the end of the 1991 season. Perhaps defenses were starting to zero in on him by then and by 1992 they had figured out the book. David Williams was brought in during the 1991 season. Jeff Boyd would've been in that receiving corps with Smith, Masotti, Murray and Clemons.

Gill, I actually got to give Gilbert Renfroe some respect. The QB situation at the beginning of the 1987 season was very similar to the Argos QB situation in 2010. Renfroe had played a little bit in Ottawa in '86, but I don't know how much. Himself, Danny Barrett and John Congemi did a nice job in that season and that was with only one true receiving threat in Smith. Renfroe fell off the map by '89, and maybe some others have some insight into what happened there, but that was O'Billovich's last season in Toronto and from what I understand there were some weird decisions made by Obie personnel wise.

[Gill The Thrill]

Some underated guys that I thought could have had better carears were a few guys that were with Montreal when they were rebuilding and became the Concordes.

They had a guy named Johnny Evans who I thought played some good games late in either the 1982 or '83 season...I don't know if he was a backup, but he never resurfaced again. The Concordes starter in 1983 was also a little underated and could have done something on a better team. I believe his name was Ron Reeves.

Chris Isaac, a QB who played for Ottawa in 1982 when JC Watts sat out because of a contract dispute was a overated. I still remember him mentioning to the media that he'd throw for 400 yds against the Argos defense, but fell way short on the way to a 35-25 loss.

As for Canadian QB's, I thought Bob Torrance was underated and could have gotten better in the CFL with more playing time. Everybody remembers Larry Jusdanis, but I thought Torrance was better and remember him kicking Western's Ass in London in the '88 Central Bowl, while with the Calgary Dinos. He played one full game with the Cats in the early 90's that may not even have been televised. They may have lost, but they were not destroyed and they were not a great team either that year. I believe he he had mixed results and still threw for about 200-225 yards.

[Gill The Thrill]

An observation about Holloway if I may. I don't know if this necessarily is evidence for him being overrated, but at least for his Toronto stint (1981-1986) he actually only played what appears to be one full season (1982); I suspect he made the majority of the starts in 1981, but the team was so bad that his statistics weren't very good. In 1982, when he won the MOP he had 4661 yards and 31 touchdowns. But, by 1983 the Argos had acquired Joe Barnes and O'Billovich wasn't afraid to use both QB's so his statistics take a hit there. The same goes for 1984, 1985 he gets hurt and by 1986 he's banged up by a bad o-line and is replaced by J.C Watts by seasons end. Again, not trying to take anything away from the man, but that's just something I observed


.

Actually Barnes was picked up after that terrible 1981 season to compete in training camp for the #1 QB position. Barnes I believe started the season in 1982 because Holloway may have been knicked in camp or Barnes was given the starter's role outright. Barnes then got injured in the 2nd game, a 31-12 loss to the Eskimos. I believe it was bruised buttocks, in other words, a sore ass...lol. I believe he fell and took a hit on the lower back and butt which put him out for a few weeks. Holloway regained the starter's and had an MOP season winning what at that time called the Schenley Award for Most Outstanding Player in 1982.

[Fungi]

Yea Rickey Ray is a Bum!!! Were you wearing your Ticat Jersey when you wrote that? LOL

I've watched Buck when he first came in. We nick named him WTF Buck...or Throw the ball Buck.. He's not too smart in prolonging his career. Some people call what he does gutsy...I call it almost stupid. He can't find his receivers quick enough, so he runs. Head first. Or he takes hits from guys who know he isn't going to throw it in time.
Over rated.

[ArgoRavi]

An observation about Holloway if I may. I don't know if this necessarily is evidence for him being overrated, but at least for his Toronto stint (1981-1986) he actually only played what appears to be one full season (1982); I suspect he made the majority of the starts in 1981, but the team was so bad that his statistics weren't very good. In 1982, when he won the MOP he had 4661 yards and 31 touchdowns. But, by 1983 the Argos had acquired Joe Barnes and O'Billovich wasn't afraid to use both QB's so his statistics take a hit there. The same goes for 1984, 1985 he gets hurt and by 1986 he's banged up by a bad o-line and is replaced by J.C Watts by seasons end. Again, not trying to take anything away from the man, but that's just something I observed.

That is an accurate observation. In '81, the team simply lost confidence after losing their first three games by a combined five points. Holloway did get a fair bit of the blame for the poor performance of the team and that is why Dan Manucci was brought in later in the year and got a fair number of snaps. Holloway will always be my all-time favourite Argo. He had some bad luck with injuries in '85, especially, and in '86 behind that awful offensive line (they gave up a CFL record 103 sacks which is a record not likely to be broken) but the man could play as well as anyone as we saw from '82 to '84. Joe Barnes was a dependable backup who could be an effective starter as well but Holloway was the better QB IMO.

As many have pointed out, letting Dunigan go was a huge mistake after the 1991 season. I suspect that the coaching staff felt that Foggie was competent enough to take over. Ravi has come forward and said that he felt the Argos would be fine with Foggie, but again just from a pure statistical perspective and reading game summaries from 1991 in the Star, I started to notice that Foggie wasn't as effective towards the end of the 1991 season. Perhaps defenses were starting to zero in on him by then and by 1992 they had figured out the book. David Williams was brought in during the 1991 season. Jeff Boyd would've been in that receiving corps with Smith, Masotti, Murray and Clemons.

Jeff Boyd was with the Argos through the '91 season but played rarely because they simply had no room for him on the active roster. He retired after that season. I know that everyone criticizes the Argos for letting Dunigan go but he had played only 50% of the games over his two seasons with the team and I admit that I thought that Foggie would be able to do almost as good of a job and be more durable to boot. For what it's worth, I recall the majority of the media predicting that the Argos would be back in the Grey Cup in '92 with Foggie at the controls of the offence. As it turned out, I and a few other people were dead wrong.

Gill, I actually got to give Gilbert Renfroe some respect. The QB situation at the beginning of the 1987 season was very similar to the Argos QB situation in 2010. Renfroe had played a little bit in Ottawa in '86, but I don't know how much. Himself, Danny Barrett and John Congemi did a nice job in that season and that was with only one true receiving threat in Smith. Renfroe fell off the map by '89, and maybe some others have some insight into what happened there, but that was O'Billovich's last season in Toronto and from what I understand there were some weird decisions made by Obie personnel wise.

I always thought that Renfroe could have been a hall of fame QB if he had not clashed with Obie during the '89 season which led to his release. He had all the tools to be successful for a long time in this league IMO but he just seemed to get lost in the pro football shuffle after his release from the Argos. Nobody's job was safe when Obie was the head coach. You could be having the greatest season and still be released if he thought that he had found someone better. In Renfroe's case, they clashed over something that I can't even recall but Obie thought that Renfroe was replaceable although Obie couldn't come up with anyone competent that year to replace him (sorry, Rick (Hollywood) Johnson just couldn't do the job at that point).

[ArgoRavi]

Some underated guys that I thought could have had better carears were a few guys that were with Montreal when they were rebuilding and became the Concordes.

They had a guy named Johnny Evans who I thought played some good games late in either the 1982 or '83 season...I don't know if he was a backup, but he never resurfaced again. The Concordes starter in 1983 was also a little underated and could have done something on a better team. I believe his name was Ron Reeves.

Chris Isaac, a QB who played for Ottawa in 1982 when JC Watts sat out because of a contract dispute was a overated. I still remember him mentioning to the media that he'd throw for 400 yds against the Argos defense, but fell way short on the way to a 35-25 loss.

Evans was Montreal's QB towards the end of the '82 season after the likes of Luc Tousignant struggled. He may have quarterbacked them in '83 too although I remember that Reeves fellow that you are speaking of, Gill. I recall one game in '82, I think, where the Als and Esks got into a shootout in Montreal and Evans put up something like 37 points but the Concordes still lost. Evans was also a punter and he wound up in Edmonton in '84 as Matt Dunigan's backup and the Esks' punter. I seem to recall that he ended up with the Cleveland Browns after that.

I have always been bitter about Chris Isaac beating Bob Bronk for the East's nominee for rookie of the year in '82. I was absolutely shocked when the result of that voting came out and still can't understand to this day how the media got it so wrong. By '84, Isaac was out of the league and I have always wondered whatever happened to him. Oddly enough, his final CFL game of note was the 1983 all-star game as the East couldn't find anyone else to play behind Condredge Holloway.

[Fungi]

I saw all the Dunnigan jerseys and Pinball jerseys in the crowd. Lots... My Girlfriend actually bought a Clemons Jersey.
Great marketing.
Poor marketing.... Get rid of the QB who won you the Grey Cup.... I'll bet there's alot of fans that said ... "X you Argo's". Including me.
Keep the heroes.
Men in suits win nothing...Eh GM.. who dumped Matt?

[ArgoRavi]

I saw all the Dunnigan jerseys and Pinball jerseys in the crowd. Lots... My Girlfriend actually bought a Clemons Jersey.
Great marketing.
Poor marketing.... Get rid of the QB who won you the Grey Cup.... I'll bet there's alot of fans that said ... "X you Argo's". Including me.
Keep the heroes.
Men in suits win nothing...Eh GM.. who dumped Matt?

Mike McCarthy was the GM but I really believe that it was Bruce McNall who made the decision not to re-sign Dunigan as McNall's financial troubles were just starting to take shape (his legal problems would still be a couple of years away).

[Gill The Thrill]

Mike McCarthy was the GM but I really believe that it was Bruce McNall who made the decision not to re-sign Dunigan as McNall's financial troubles were just starting to take shape (his legal problems would still be a couple of years away).

I don't know, McNall was still showing signs of willing to spend money. Remember the rumour reported that McNall had the Argos interested in going after Joe Montana for the 1992 season, after the 49er's had admitted that they were going with Steve Young as the starter. Montana would not have been a long-term solution obviously, but man would he have sold tickets. It may never have been serious, but it was reported and Montana eventually signed with the KC Chiefs where he played his last few seasons of football.

[ArgoRavi]

I don't know, McNall was still showing signs of willing to spend money. Remember the rumour reported that McNall had the Argos interested in going after Joe Montana for the 1992 season, after the 49er's had admitted that they were going with Steve Young as the starter. Montana would not have been a long-term solution obviously, but man would he have sold tickets. It may never have been serious, but it was reported and Montana eventually signed with the KC Chiefs where he played his last few seasons of football.

The one reason why I believe that McNall was starting to have financial problems is that Marty York wrote in the Globe and Mail on the eve of that 1992 season that he was hearing that McNall was starting to lose interest in the Argos.

[ArgoGabe22]

I would say in the beginning Henry Burris was underrated but now he's overrated. Dave Dickenson was a little underrated as well imo. I agree Buck Pierce is so overrated its unbelievable.

[Will]

I don't know, McNall was still showing signs of willing to spend money. Remember the rumour reported that McNall had the Argos interested in going after Joe Montana for the 1992 season, after the 49er's had admitted that they were going with Steve Young as the starter. Montana would not have been a long-term solution obviously, but man would he have sold tickets. It may never have been serious, but it was reported and Montana eventually signed with the KC Chiefs where he played his last few seasons of football.

The Argos also had Mark Rypien up for the home opener in 1992 (a 61-20 win over BC) and there were rumors that they were interested in him as well. That was a few years after he had led the Redskins to the Super Bowl over the Bills.

[Gill The Thrill]

The Argos also had Mark Rypien up for the home opener in 1992 (a 61-20 win over BC) and there were rumors that they were interested in him as well. That was a few years after he had led the Redskins to the Super Bowl over the Bills.

I remember that, now that you mentioned it. The problem was that the Argos were more concerned with bringing in a big name rather than forming an entire team. This is the same repeated problem that the Argos showed in the 1970's, when they'd bring in guys with a big name that did not necessarily make them a better team, such as the Anthony Davis' or the Terry Metcalfs...what they really needed in those days and never improved on was a QB.

Getting rid of Dunigan was stupid after 1991, but another stupid move in hindsight was getting rid of Kerwin Bell who posted some huge numbers in 1998, after Flutie had gone to Buffalo. They really did not have a replacement that was nearly as competent. Jimmy Kemp was an intelligent QB, but he did not have the arm strength to compliment being anything other than a QB that could only manage a game, but not really win one. I believe Jim Barker in 1999 brought former Alabama Crimson Tide QB Jay Barker. He was stronger than Kemp in terms of throwing the ball, but was nowhere near as cerebral. Both were miles behind Kerwin Bell in ability.

So I think as much as Kerwin Bell may not have been a fan favourite, and had the balls or maybe was stupid, depending on your point of view, to speak unholy about someone as popular as Pinball Clemons in Toronto, he was very much underated. The Argos never got another QB as consistent until Wally went to BC and decided that he was going to replace Damon Allen with Dave Dickenson, thus making Allen available to the Argos.

[Fungi]

Mike McCarthy was the GM but I really believe that it was Bruce McNall who made the decision not to re-sign Dunigan as McNall's financial troubles were just starting to take shape (his legal problems would still be a couple of years away).

Just to keep my household free of of negative waves... I have to say that Mcnall and McCarthy can take a big long suck on my arse. They mean nothing to the history of this league.
I'll say it to their face , any time, any where.
They have to pay of course.