Re: Game Thread: Argos vs. Hamilton Tiger-Cats Friday July 4 - 7:30 PM

[paulwoods13]

As has happened too many times already, we can't establish a run game, and pass protection has not been great. Fix that, and some of our problems may disappear.

Granted, but how can it be fixed? Getting Ciraco back might help (as he could slide into one of the guard spots, or push Nicastro out to guard), but beyond that it's pretty clear we have to go with what we had last night. I don't see Bosse or Dankwah being moved into the starting lineup anytime soon. Giffen (like Ciraco, actually) is a decent player but hasn't been able to consistently stay healthy. Moore and Doxtater are first-year
starters, Hunter is playing out of position, and who knows what to make of Vandal at this point.

[paulwoods13]

I looked up last year's results to see if I was being too pessimistic about this year's potential. Toronto was 3-2 in its first five games last season, and went 7-6 in its last 13 to finish at 10-8. This year's team, at 1-4, would need to go 8-5 over its last 13 to get to .500. Not impossible, certainly, but IMO last year's team was more talented almost across the board (one exception at backup QB, where Arbuckle is better than Dukes) and it went 8-5 in only one 13-game stretch last season (games 5 through 17).

Perhaps the biggest reason for my pessimism about this year is the lack of new impact players. Since 2021, the Argos have consistently brought players into the CFL and watched them make a big impact and in some cases develop into stars. Javon Leake, Chad Kelly, Dwayne Hendrix, Makai Polk, Ralph Holley, Dejon Allen, Jared Brinkman, Damonte Coxie, etc. Who in this year's class of new recruits has such potential? Perhaps Miyan Williams. Jury's out on Moore and Doxtater, and a bunch of d-line guys and new LBs. If you keep losing veterans to free agency, you need to replace them either with capable free agents from other teams or capable new-to-the-CFL guys. I'm not seeing evidence that we have effectively done either of those things this year.

[OV Argo]

Losing teams often have coaches who stubbornly stick to weak game plans and play-calling that is not suited for their roster personnel OR who stick with "their guys" = some players who aren't getting it done - when they could be trying some other players.

The Argos offence with HC RD was powerful with Chad Kelly able to throw lots of intermediate & deep strikes, and supplemented by a diverse ground game, plus Kelly was a mobile run threat. And outside of D. Allen at OT, the O-line talent before was not oh so superior to this year's group (IMO). What they have now is a QB not near as good a downfield passer (though still pretty decent the past 2 games), with little mobility, and now no faith in a ground game; and this O-line is being set up to fail with no run game and a D teeing of to pass rush a QB not near as good as Chad Kelly.

Lots of losses on defence hurt for sure, but they still have plenty of talent including some new guys (Chatfield at least looks like a good find at DE; Slywka might become a fine CFL safety but is not even close yet); but they are sticking with some weak links instead of making changes or at least platooning in other guys on the roster to see if they can upgrade (D-line rotation was a real strong suit under C. Mace).

These are all coach responsible things (roster decisions; game plan and play-calling); still have faith in RD since he is about the most successful young HC in Argo history (2 GCs sandwiched around an all-time league best reg. season mark !!!); I wonder now if he might need some better help now - in smarter coaches on his staff for game plans (like a dedicated and innovative OC) AND in evaluating & deploying talent ?

[TrueBlueGuy]

I looked up last year's results to see if I was being too pessimistic about this year's potential. Toronto was 3-2 in its first five games last season, and went 7-6 in its last 13 to finish at 10-8. This year's team, at 1-4, would need to go 8-5 over its last 13 to get to .500. Not impossible, certainly, but IMO last year's team was more talented almost across the board (one exception at backup QB, where Arbuckle is better than Dukes) and it went 8-5 in only one 13-game stretch last season (games 5 through 17).

I would agree, seems from what we have seen on-the-field it will be a below-500 record for our guys in 2025, and it will come down to other teams and how those other teams do. Argo Games against RedBlacks, Elks and Lions head-to-head will be critical.

[TrueBlueGuy]

it's always a downer to lose to Hamilton, even when they were the better team, bot on the positive sign, as a CFL fan
1. perfect weather, beautiful night
2. loads of points scored, lots of exciting plays (watching a snoozer in Montreal right now...)
3. appreciate watching the skill-levels of Mitchell, Lawler, Coxie, Brissett, all top-notch players

[ARGO57]

Still a lot of football left to play but this may turn out to be a year that the Argonauts take a step back while developing some newcomers.
As previously noted by many the roster has suffered substantial losses the last couple of years giving younger players like Aaron Casey, Sage Doxtater, Andrew Chatfield, Derek Slywka and the like to get substantial playing time to hopefully develop into productive CFL players.

[RB957]

As has happened too many times already, we can't establish a run game, and pass protection has not been great. Fix that, and some of our problems may disappear.

Granted, but how can it be fixed? Getting Ciraco back might help (as he could slide into one of the guard spots, or push Nicastro out to guard), but beyond that it's pretty clear we have to go with what we had last night. I don't see Bosse or Dankwah being moved into the starting lineup anytime soon. Giffen (like Ciraco, actually) is a decent player but hasn't been able to consistently stay healthy. Moore and Doxtater are first-year
starters, Hunter is playing out of position, and who knows what to make of Vandal at this point.

Very valid points. You can argue my comment was wishful thinking, as if things were that easy. So if the personnel answer is not in the group we have, can we find someone else out there to bring in i.e. a practise roster player from another team, or a cast-off. Not the best solution, but it is an option. The only other thing I can think of is changing the game plan. The best coaches devise plays and schemes to maximize the strengths of their players (or limiting their weaknesses). I admit I am not at all convinced that this would be effective, or what that would even entail, but it might be worth some consideration.

[RB957]

I looked up last year's results to see if I was being too pessimistic about this year's potential. Toronto was 3-2 in its first five games last season, and went 7-6 in its last 13 to finish at 10-8. This year's team, at 1-4, would need to go 8-5 over its last 13 to get to .500. Not impossible, certainly, but IMO last year's team was more talented almost across the board (one exception at backup QB, where Arbuckle is better than Dukes) and it went 8-5 in only one 13-game stretch last season (games 5 through 17).

I would agree, seems from what we have seen on-the-field it will be a below-500 record for our guys in 2025, and it will come down to other teams and how those other teams do. Argo Games against RedBlacks, Elks and Lions head-to-head will be critical.

I agree. I think we can forget about winning the division, but the again with the Als losing last night, the division is tighter than it can be. The biggest thing is staying competitive with Hamilton and Ottawa, and hoping the 4th and 5th place Western Division teams don't fare as well. Games against the so-called weaker teams are truly going to be critical.

[ArgoRavi]

Still a lot of football left to play but this may turn out to be a year that the Argonauts take a step back while developing some newcomers.
As previously noted by many the roster has suffered substantial losses the last couple of years giving younger players like Aaron Casey, Sage Doxtater, Andrew Chatfield, Derek Slywka and the like to get substantial playing time to hopefully develop into productive CFL players.

Often, it takes time for a team to gel and time is likely what the Argos require more than anything.

[ARGO57]

Still a lot of football left to play but this may turn out to be a year that the Argonauts take a step back while developing some newcomers.
As previously noted by many the roster has suffered substantial losses the last couple of years giving younger players like Aaron Casey, Sage Doxtater, Andrew Chatfield, Derek Slywka and the like to get substantial playing time to hopefully develop into productive CFL players.

Often, it takes time for a team to gel and time is likely what the Argos require more than anything.

That is an often overlooked aspect of high roster turnover, team chemistry especially coming off a championship season.