Argo Sale

[Neely2005]

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what Braley has done for the league and for keeping the Argos a float. At the same time why is he keeping the Argos a float? Is it to save the team? If that's the case how can he not see that MLSE is the only owner knocking on his door currently that has the resources to turn things around and keep the Argos from sinking.

Braley's done nothing beyond keeping the team a float and at this point it is becoming detrimental. How much longer can the Argos keep going like this? If Braley wants $10M for the team he needs to create $10M worth of value but his current bare bones approach is not working and will not work. His logic seems extremely flawed.

It's easy to spend other peoples money...

Eliminate the SkyDome rental. That's $1 million per season right there. Profits from concessions and parking = $2 million per season as a conservative estimate. Argos would be at least $3 million ahead at BMO before even selling a ticket.



If the cost of bringing MLSE into the CFL family was, say, three BMO Grey Cups in six years, do you think the BOG would object? I don't. MLSE's participation in the CFL is at least that valuable.

The problem is that due to the union contracts (the City owns BMO Field) apparently it's very expensive to put events on at BMO Field too. I would assume that it's still cheaper than the Rogers Centre but we don't know how big the difference really is. For all we know it could even be more expensive @ BMO Field. (I doubt it but it's a possibility)

[Godfather]

As for the suggested $10m price tag for the argos I can see Braley's reasoning. If MLSE were to own the argos I think that they can make a lot more than $1 million per year.

First you have to consider the synergies. The costs of running the argos would drop with much of the administrative aspects of running the team being merged with the other teams. Next there are the benefits of having a second tenant at BMO with parking, concessions etc., not to mention stadium naming rights that the argos TV audience can bring. Lets not forget that argo games have 20x TFC tv audience. That is worth a lot in naming rights. Argo home games can generate 6.3 million more TV viewers (9 games x 700k audience) to events and advertising at BMO field. Millions more if you include playoffs and Grey Cups.

Second, owning the argos gives MLSE the right to host Grey Cups. If they owned the argos you can bet the cfl would grant them the grey cup every 6-7 years in Canada's largest market. That's millions of dollars there alone. MLSE can market and include grey cup tickets/boxes with corporate packages to their huge fan base network. The Grey Cup is the most watched sporting event in Canada, why wouldn't MLSE not want to be a part of that?

Third, with TSN now going to five networks CFL content has gone up in value. The next TV contract could be much more lucrative that the current deal.

Obviously MLSE/Rogers wants to buy the team for next to nothing. But Braley knows there is a lot of value in this team beyond just their gate revenues if MLSE takes ownership.

[Invader]

We don't know for sure Braley is asking $10 million for the Argos. The only source is 'Rash, who is a Rogers employee and has been wrong before in his Argo rumours. Rogers is the stumbling block for MLSE coming to an agreement to purchase the Argos

Braley said in the Star interview last Autumn: “There’s lots of options, and one of them is I fold the team,” Braley said. “What is the value? If you’re losing money, it’s not worth much."

I'm sure Braley is more concerned about turning the team over to an owner who will act as caretaker of the franchise into the future. If he was worried about maximizing his profit it's doubtful he would have taken ownership of the Argos in the first place.

The speculated value of most CFL franchises is in the $30 million to $40 million range. The Riders and Esks are worth more while the Argos are worth less...but not worthless, especially with a TV contract which pays the team $18 million over the next 4 years.

Braley speculated in 2013 about building an Argos stadium in Vaughn, Markham or Mississauga, but then the city came forward and requested MLSE accommodate the Argos at city-owned BMO along with $10 million to help with the renovation. MLSE's CEO said "MLSE has a legal obligation to accommodate the Argos at BMO" and introduced a 3-phase renovation plan which was approved by the city, which would have seen the Argos relocate to BMO this June.

That's one of the reason's why the Argo stadium plans were put on the back burner.

Let's face facts, the Argos can't be sold until they have a reasonable lease signed at BMO or construction has started on their own stadium. Everything else is just rumour or media manipulation.

Here is the link to the Star interview: http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/...ball_team.html

As for the suggested $10m price tag for the argos I can see Braley's reasoning. If MLSE were to own the argos I think that they can make a lot more than $1 million per year.

First you have to consider the synergies. The costs of running the argos would drop with much of the administrative aspects of running the team being merged with the other teams. Next there are the benefits of having a second tenant at BMO with parking, concessions etc., not to mention stadium naming rights that the argos TV audience can bring. Lets not forget that argo games have 20x TFC tv audience. That is worth a lot in naming rights. Argo home games can generate 6.3 million more TV viewers (9 games x 700k audience) to events and advertising at BMO field. Millions more if you include playoffs and Grey Cups.

Second, owning the argos gives MLSE the right to host Grey Cups. If they owned the argos you can bet the cfl would grant them the grey cup every 6-7 years in Canada's largest market. That's millions of dollars there alone. MLSE can market and include grey cup tickets/boxes with corporate packages to their huge fan base network. The Grey Cup is the most watched sporting event in Canada, why wouldn't MLSE not want to be a part of that?

Third, with TSN now going to five networks CFL content has gone up in value. The next TV contract could be much more lucrative that the current deal.

Obviously MLSE/Rogers wants to buy the team for next to nothing. But Braley knows there is a lot of value in this team beyond just their gate revenues if MLSE takes ownership.

You make some excellent points, Godfather. I'd project the Argos value at $10 million at an absolute minimum. After one successful season at BMO or in their own stadium, the franchise value will have doubled but still being only half of most other CFL teams. That could soon change with the right management vaulting the Argos into the ascension of CFL franchises, packing a renovated BMO field on a sultry summer evening with a cooling breeze wafting off the lake, watching a thrilling CFL contest being played on natural grass...it doesn't get much better than that! The Argos will have a waiting list for seasons tickets just like TFC did.

[paulwoods13]

Eliminate the SkyDome rental. That's $1 million per season right there. Profits from concessions and parking = $2 million per season as a conservative estimate. Argos would be at least $3 million ahead at BMO before even selling a ticket.

$2M in profits from concessions and parking? $200k/game? That's a hell of a lot of parking spaces and hot dogs to be sold. And it's not as if BMO has no costs associated with it. We're not going from $1M in facility cost to $0.

If the cost of bringing MLSE into the CFL family was, say, three BMO Grey Cups in six years, do you think the BOG would object? I don't. MLSE's participation in the CFL is at least that valuable.

No, I don't believe the CFL BOG would agree to that. MLSE is not universally loved, and self-interest would come strongly into play -- that's three Grey Cups out of six that could be cash cows for three other cities. So I think this is wildly optimistic and simply will not happen.

Next there are the benefits of having a second tenant at BMO with parking, concessions etc., not to mention stadium naming rights that the argos TV audience can bring. Lets not forget that argo games have 20x TFC tv audience. That is worth a lot in naming rights. . . .

Third, with TSN now going to five networks CFL content has gone up in value. The next TV contract could be much more lucrative that the current deal.

That stadium already has a name. I doubt BMO would tear up its current name deal and pay more just because a second team came along for 10 more dates a year.

The next TV contract is in FOUR years. Buying a team now based on the hope of bigger TV rights that far down the road -- in a media universe where nothing is guaranteed to have a long shelf life -- is a decision no corporation answerable to shareholders would make, IMO.

I'm sure Braley is more concerned about turning the team over to an owner who will act as caretaker of the franchise into the future. If he was worried about maximizing his profit it's doubtful he would have taken ownership of the Argos in the first place.

Yes, his actions since assuming ownership of the team point directly to imminent canonization.

[Neely2005]

$2M in profits from concessions and parking? $200k/game? That's a hell of a lot of parking spaces and hot dogs to be sold. And it's not as if BMO has no costs associated with it. We're not going from $1M in facility cost to $0.



No, I don't believe the CFL BOG would agree to that. MLSE is not universally loved, and self-interest would come strongly into play -- that's three Grey Cups out of six that could be cash cows for three other cities. So I think this is wildly optimistic and simply will not happen.



That stadium already has a name. I doubt BMO would tear up its current name deal and pay more just because a second team came along for 10 more dates a year.

The next TV contract is in FOUR years. Buying a team now based on the hope of bigger TV rights that far down the road -- in a media universe where nothing is guaranteed to have a long shelf life -- is a decision no corporation answerable to shareholders would make, IMO.



Yes, his actions since assuming ownership of the team point directly to imminent canonization.

The naming rights for BMO Field expire next year:

http://www.thecanadianpress.com/engl...2&languageid=1

"BMO will remain a sponsor with the stadium still known as BMO Field. That 10-year deal expires Dec. 31, 2016"

[OV Argo]

He he he Paul - LOL

I really wonder if Mr. Braley has much concern about selling the Argos to a proper "caretaker" of if he is just going to be a businessman looking for max profit on his asset ? If he does care much about the Argos future he might think long & hard about selling to a weasel-y sports conglomerate / corporation that has demonstrated little use for Canadian football or the CFL before; they might think the Argos would be nice a little pawn in their sports empire and yeah maybe they could turn a decent profit with some good work & marketing ... but, real care and love for the Argos = another matter alltogether IMO.

What about this supposed "community" ownership group that has shown some interest? I\d like to know because if i win 40 millioin bucks or so in an upcoming lottery, maybe i could throw in with them to become proper Argo caretakers (Ravi as team president, Paulwoods13 as GM, AV as OC, Invader in charge of marketing = i 'd hire a bunch of Argofans. cause i know you guys really love the Argos/CFL ;o)) But i'd have to tell Braley to shove the 10 mil price tag you know where - & sideways. Let real Argo owners take over the team and run it with care & love - and we'll pay you what you paid for the Argos chum - now that you have run them into close to all-time low interest AND got to make plenty of ca$h hosting some GCs. And Mr. Braley might likely respond with - "sorry, i need the buck$ so gotta sell to the corporation" - weasels , soccer snobs and all-american wannabes who would much rather have an NFL team and are likely to sell the Argos short at any opportunity That's just the way she goes in the world of bizness. ;o

[AngeloV]

The problem is that due to the union contracts (the City owns BMO Field) apparently it's very expensive to put events on at BMO Field too. I would assume that it's still cheaper than the Rogers Centre but we don't know how big the difference really is. For all we know it could even be more expensive @ BMO Field. (I doubt it but it's a possibility)

You have mentioned this in the past, but I don't buy it. Hypothetically, If there were 200 unionized employees to work 10 Argos home games, even if they were paid $25 per hour x 5 hours your looking at max $250k for the season. Now, I highly doubt their would be 200 employees per game, and even further doubt they would be making $25 per hour, so that would more than likely make the total cost around 100-150k for these employees for the season.

Even if someone other than MLSE were to own the Argos, they would likely be able to work out a fair agreement with the city of say..25k or 30k per event. Cost the Argos would be more like 250-300k per season for the stadium.

[Rich]

$2M in profits from concessions and parking? $200k/game? That's a hell of a lot of parking spaces and hot dogs to be sold.

Exhibition Place has over 6,000 parking spaces. Let's say they use 5,000 at $20 ea. that's $100,000 mostly profit. Can they make 5 bucks profit on concessions for each fan out of 20,000? One beer sold probably equals $8 profit. They clear at least $5 on a $7 hot dog. $200k profit per game is not that unreasonable, esp if the crowds grow over 20,000.

[Neely2005]

You have mentioned this in the past, but I don't buy it. Hypothetically, If there were 200 unionized employees to work 10 Argos home games, even if they were paid $25 per hour x 5 hours your looking at max $250k for the season. Now, I highly doubt their would be 200 employees per game, and even further doubt they would be making $25 per hour, so that would more than likely make the total cost around 100-150k for these employees for the season.

Even if someone other than MLSE were to own the Argos, they would likely be able to work out a fair agreement with the city of say..25k or 30k per event. Cost the Argos would be more like 250-300k per season for the stadium.

"It is expensive to play a game at BMO Field, more expensive than it is now for the Argos to play a game at the Rogers Centre. Thanks to several union contracts between the city and everyone from the electrical and sound staff to concessions workers and the ushers, it costs about $100,000 every time Toronto FC plays at BMO Field. That is why there are few concerts at either BMO or Ricoh Coliseum, which is governed by the same deals. Since the facility is owned by the city, there is no cutting a sweetheart deal just to land a new tenant."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle16570810/

[AngeloV]

"It is expensive to play a game at BMO Field, more expensive than it is now for the Argos to play a game at the Rogers Centre. Thanks to several union contracts between the city and everyone from the electrical and sound staff to concessions workers and the ushers, it costs about $100,000 every time Toronto FC plays at BMO Field. That is why there are few concerts at either BMO or Ricoh Coliseum, which is governed by the same deals. Since the facility is owned by the city, there is no cutting a sweetheart deal just to land a new tenant."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle16570810/

I honestly believe this was taken out of context. It may be more expensive to play at BMO without taking rent into consideration, but I still believe that when all is said an done, it would cost max 250-300k to hold 10 games in that stadium--rent included. There is no way the unionized employees salaries would be more than 25-30k per game combined. A far cry from the 100k the team pays for rent in the dome.

I'll also challenge the part about Ricoh. If the unionized employees caused rent to be so high, why would the Marlies play 40 games a year there, and why would the WWE stop booking ACC and book their house shows out of Ricoh now? This union thing is so overblown.

[ArgoRavi]

That's one of the reason's why the Argo stadium plans were put on the back burner.

The Argo (i.e., Braley's) stadium plans were put on the backburner because he never had any plans. That guy was never going to sink one dime into a new stadium for the Argos.

[Neely2005]

I honestly believe this was taken out of context. It may be more expensive to play at BMO without taking rent into consideration, but I still believe that when all is said an done, it would cost max 250-300k to hold 10 games in that stadium--rent included. There is no way the unionized employees salaries would be more than 25-30k per game combined. A far cry from the 100k the team pays for rent in the dome.

I'll also challenge the part about Ricoh. If the unionized employees caused rent to be so high, why would the Marlies play 40 games a year there, and why would the WWE stop booking ACC and book their house shows out of Ricoh now? This union thing is so overblown.

The quote clearly states that it costs TFC $100,000 Per Game to play at BMO Field. Why would it cost any less for the Argonauts to play there?

As to the Marlies and Ricoh Coliseum it's a smaller building so I would assume that less staff would be needed so the cost would be less than a TFC game.

[AngeloV]

The quote clearly states that it costs TFC $100,000 Per Game to play at BMO Field. Why would it cost any less for the Argonauts to play there?

I seriously have my doubts about that per game TFC number. Wouldn't be the first time a reported figure was wrong. I also wonder why outgoing commissioner Cohon would be so bullish that a move to BMO would save the Argos if in fact that reported figure is correct.

[Neely2005]

I seriously have my doubts about that per game TFC number. Wouldn't be the first time a reported figure was wrong. I also wonder why outgoing commissioner Cohon would be so bullish that a move to BMO would save the Argos if in fact that reported figure is correct.

Well regardless it doesn't seem like there will be a huge cost savings moving from the Rogers Centre to BMO Field.

My guess would be because it's a better sized stadium and will create a better game day experience with fewer tickets available. He's probably looking at what happened in Montreal when they moved from Olympic Stadium to McGill.

[Double Dare]

This thread has entered the twilight zone.

[T-Bone]

This thread has entered the twilight zone.

[R.J]

This thread has entered the twilight zone.

I believe everyone is just anticipating/hoping for some news. Braley's ownership of the Argonauts is taking it's toll on the fans.

[ArgoRavi]

I believe everyone is just anticipating/hoping for some news. Braley's ownership of the Argonauts is taking it's toll on the fans.

I know that I am anxiously waiting for something positive to happen on this front. I got my hopes up a year ago only to see them dashed. I truly hope that the Argos don't have to go into the upcoming season with all of the same questions still unanswered.

[argotom]

Let's hope silence is golden with no rumors coming out and some back door negotiations.

[R.J]

Let's hope silence is golden with no rumors coming out and some back door negotiations.

Westhead was on one of the TSN Radio programs the other day and stated that Leweike is still having conversations with the Argos.

Edit : here's the link
http://www.tsn.ca/radio/westhead-mls...ident-1.199484