Why has Argonauts Home Game Attendance declined so much in 1 year? (2013-2014)

[LLB997]

Ticket prices will go up with a BMO move, which begs the question? can they even sell out BMO? if this is the case.

I went to the Calgary game and purchased cheap seats at the Box Office. What cost 26 last season cost 34 this season. Ok, no big deal. Argos need my cash , i am not going to nickel and dime over 8 bucks especially when i can sit anywhere i want. But again, Its not about getting me to the stadium, Its the casuals , and 34 is super expensive for a casual football or CFL fan who probably only "wouldn't mind checking out an Argos game".

What is the incentive? someone enlighten me? are there any promos going on right now? ticket and shirt for so and so. or 4 tickets , 4 hot dogs for a set price?? anything? Junior Hockey and semi pro ball clubs are always offering those kind of deals. I go to a few Brooklyn Cyclones (New York - Penn League Baseball ) games a year, and the promos are great. The stadium is quaint right in the heart of Coney Island, Blows away a Yankees game for me anyday. BTW, last time i went i wore my Argos cap and peaked the interest of quite a few people with it. You guys would be surprised how many people love Canadian stuff down there. Its the Canadians who are afraid to love there own stuff. but i digress. cheers
Lee

[Invader]

The trend in the CFL is for team's not to try to pack the stadium with cheap tickets, but to sell fairly expensive tickets to their dedicated fanbase. These fans will pay the higher prices, but not for long if they find out that other fans in their section got free or 2-for-1 tickets. Season ticket holders need to be assured they are truly getting a discount off regular ticket prices and won't be undercut with ticket giveaways and promotions. Argo season ticket sales are also competing with TV, with fans knowing all the home games are on TSN.

There's no guarantee Argo tickets will cost more at BMO or their new stadium. They will need to guage the market and price tickets accordingly. The RedBlacks might be a good template to follow, with 16,500 season ticket holders (with a waiting list) and reportedly $3.00 for a can of beer (vs. $5.50 for the Riders). Of course this is impossible in Toronto, Rogers and MLSE just wouldn't allow it...but dare to dream.

I'd project the Argos to sellout their entire season in their new 25,000-seat stadium...or very close to it...at average CFL ticket prices. Then all this negative media speculation, mainly from Rogers employees, about the Argos folding or relocating is just so much wishfull thinking on their part.

[Argocister]

...........The RedBlacks might be a good template to follow, with 16,500 season ticket holders (with a waiting list) and reportedly $3.00 for a can of beer (vs. $5.50 for the Riders). Of course this is impossible in Toronto, Rogers and MLSE just wouldn't allow it...but dare to dream.
............

I'm not sure about the cost of the beer..... I didn't get one during the game ( line ups and in the area that was out for a bit) but before the game the tall boy was 8.50

[ArgoZ]

cmon Tom. you could have sugarcoated it for our resident TFC fan. How does 5th division equate to 88th best league?? ;]

It is amusing how some here discredit MLS with words like minor league, second rate and etc. The exact sentiment many "NFL only" fans use for our beloved CFL, which you will defend and disprove to no end!

I am as upset with the current Argos situation as all of you. The hypocritical, negative attitude toward TFC make one no better than the negative media that is shown toward the Argos, which we all hate so much.

If MLSE becomes the future owners, which it seems we are near begging them too at this point, it makes little sense to start trashing their other properties or entities. You are doing more damage than good.

[Argo57]

It is amusing how some here discredit MLS with words like minor league, second rate and etc. The exact sentiment many "NFL only" fans use for our beloved CFL, which you will defend and disprove to no end!

I am as upset with the current Argos situation as all of you. The hypocritical, negative attitude toward TFC make one no better than the negative media that is shown toward the Argos, which we all hate so much.

If MLSE becomes the future owners, which it seems we are near begging them too at this point, it makes little sense to start trashing their other properties or entities. You are doing more damage than good.

Great post!!
Well said.

[AngeloV]

It is amusing how some here discredit MLS with words like minor league, second rate and etc. The exact sentiment many "NFL only" fans use for our beloved CFL, which you will defend and disprove to no end!

I am as upset with the current Argos situation as all of you. The hypocritical, negative attitude toward TFC make one no better than the negative media that is shown toward the Argos, which we all hate so much.

If MLSE becomes the future owners, which it seems we are near begging them too at this point, it makes little sense to start trashing their other properties or entities. You are doing more damage than good.

Great post!!
Well said.

I will second that.

Admittedly, I am one of the biggest offenders of turning on Toronto's other sports teams, because I've hated the abuse (albeit often friendly) I get from people that know I'm a die hard Argos and CFL fan. I have said a lot of negative things about MLS, but it's more to the point that it is more accepted in Toronto that the CFL, because it's got a made in the USA label on it. Honestly, I'm not a big soccer guy, just a casual fan. My beef is with wannabes, not the actual teams (except for the Blue Jays ).

[doubleblue]

Watching on TSN, like me next game. And I`m ST holder.

If I go, here is my cost for 2 people. $180 for tickets. 3 hour drive round trip in a jeep-gas $40. Parking $25. Food $40. Beer $80 (that`s 4 beers each in 4 hours). The Go has bad train times and is $30 round trip so not an option for the cost savings. Last 2 home games I stayed over night but won`t count that. $365 for 2 people.

When I`m at home food $20 eat like a king. Beer $40 for all we can drink. $1.80 for Sat feed. =$51.80 That`s for 4 people.

I have to agree with this. Years back we could drive and park for $6 at the EX for the Argos or Jays. I understand with inflation it would be more now, but there is still a lot of gouging on every level. People get tired of it and the traffic congestion and find other things to do with their time and money. That's why I would have liked to see a new stadium more central in the north end near 407 or 401 access with parking. Doubt it will ever happen though. The old saying you have to follow the money. The money for the Politicians is to make people come downtown and spend hard earned money to make more tax money. So the different levels of Gov't won't put money into a stadium at Downsview eg. because they can't get as much tax revenue back.
People in other parts of Canada like to dump on the good people of Toronto about not supporting the Argos. People do support them as the TV numbers show. But IMO the number 1 reason is the hassle of getting to and from the games and the time it takes even if you use public transit. Then there is the price gouging. Everybody has a cost ceiling that says enough is enough. The Leafs still have enough hard core 20,000 who seem willing to pay any price to go to their games. The Argos just don't have that many any more who will pay any price to go to their games. That's my opinion anyhow.

[AngeloV]

$25 for parking? Wow. There are plenty of lots withing a 10 minute walk of the stadium that are way cheaper. I paid $10 to park at the corner of Spadina and Wellington. There are 2 lots acroos from each other (northwest and northeast corners) that were bot $10. I usually park at the green P lot on the Esplanade for night games. Might be about a 20 minute walk, but it's only $5 to park after 6pm there.

[Gill The Thrill]

It is amusing how some here discredit MLS with words like minor league, second rate and etc. The exact sentiment many "NFL only" fans use for our beloved CFL, which you will defend and disprove to no end!

I am as upset with the current Argos situation as all of you. The hypocritical, negative attitude toward TFC make one no better than the negative media that is shown toward the Argos, which we all hate so much.

If MLSE becomes the future owners, which it seems we are near begging them too at this point, it makes little sense to start trashing their other properties or entities. You are doing more damage than good.

Who's begging MLSE to buy the franchise, not me...some on here, but many are also not...It's just that the Argos have been put in a no-win situation that may look to force that hand. (Is that really good?) I for one detest monopolies controlling any industry including professional sports in what should be a "world class city" such as Toronto....hmm, do the Yankees own every pro team in New York City, of course not...that's a world-class city, with multiple sports venues and a healthy competitive business environment to serve the needs of sports fans of many levels...not the one horse town that Toronto is, making it sound like a great thing that MLSE will run (control) everything.

PS - Don't give me the Rogers owns the Blue Jays, Rogers now have a 38% stake of MLSE so it's practically one entity running everything. Sad that we now view the ownership of sports teams as only fit to be owned by whomever can sleep best with all levels of government while pilfering public money while they're at it....God knows MLSE needs the coin because they can't afford to reno BMO themselves...yah, I know, the deed of the stadium belongs to the city....they want full control of most of the profits while getting the costs of any capital put on the rest of us.

Meanwhile they choose what we watch? how we watch it? and where we can watch it?...all with the free promotion that they get from the kiss-ass media in this town that they also happen to own (Rogers).

$25 for parking? Wow. There are plenty of lots withing a 10 minute walk of the stadium that are way cheaper. I paid $10 to park at the corner of Spadina and Wellington. There are 2 lots acroos from each other (northwest and northeast corners) that were bot $10. I usually park at the green P lot on the Esplanade for night games. Might be about a 20 minute walk, but it's only $5 to park after 6pm there.

I know the lots you're talking about, but you better leave home really early if you intend to walk from the Esplanade and Jarvis $5 lot and need to lineup at the box office also. You put in the walking and the waiting time and depending from where one is coming from, if you don't leave prior to 1.5 maybe 2 hrs before kickoff...you might as well stay home, cook dinner and then cozy up to the big screen watching the game.

Let's not give Braley ideas, he may want to lift the blackouts which would be the nail in the coffin for this organization.

Notice in the scenario that I wrote, I did not include dinner...Do they expect fans to be content with all that stadium food at those prices, especially when they know that none of that money will go to the Argos, let's not even talk about the health benefits or lack there of. Someone brought up the stadium atmosphere AT ROGERS CENTRE...lol...do you mean the crappy loud music they pipe in through the PA between plays and the silly contests they have on the Jumbotron, videoscreen, (whatever they're calling it these days). Is that what you mean by entertainment package with the price of my overpriced ticket....pleasee...give me a break. Give me the game and lower ticket prices. Let the sponsors pay for those gimmicks, they take away from the atmosphere because everytime you want to spontaneously cheer, somebody gets on the loudspeaker saying this first down, or timeout is sponsored by ....insert shameless advert here.

I have no problem with advertising, I understand companies pay for the exposure, but when it artificially interferes with the natural enjoyment of the game or with me following a play or penalty...enough already. I want to follow the action on the field not hear Nathan Downer screaming in a mic trying to get my attention because of a pizza promotion during a timeout or a video replay. That can be a turnoff too.

I have to agree with this. Years back we could drive and park for $6 at the EX for the Argos or Jays. I understand with inflation it would be more now, but there is still a lot of gouging on every level. People get tired of it and the traffic congestion and find other things to do with their time and money. That's why I would have liked to see a new stadium more central in the north end near 407 or 401 access with parking. Doubt it will ever happen though. The old saying you have to follow the money. The money for the Politicians is to make people come downtown and spend hard earned money to make more tax money. So the different levels of Gov't won't put money into a stadium at Downsview eg. because they can't get as much tax revenue back.
People in other parts of Canada like to dump on the good people of Toronto about not supporting the Argos. People do support them as the TV numbers show. But IMO the number 1 reason is the hassle of getting to and from the games and the time it takes even if you use public transit. Then there is the price gouging. Everybody has a cost ceiling that says enough is enough. The Leafs still have enough hard core 20,000 who seem willing to pay any price to go to their games. The Argos just don't have that many any more who will pay any price to go to their games. That's my opinion anyhow.

Great post...the Leafs basically have the corporate support that's willing to shell the money for those expensive seats and Premium Seat Licenses, which is not that difficult when you could claim 50% as tax deductable under the entertainment expense. Remove that and see how many fans would really shell out $400 a ticket...see if any sports teams in the major sports would be filling any of their venues including NFL stadiums in the US.

You're definitely right about the cost ceiling...I'm not a mathematician but I sure can understand that 2.3 % hike in inflation does not equate to a 20 - 30% hike in ticket prices...that's for sure. And it's not just ticket prices, but concession prices, and parking prices and everything else downtown.

Let's not have all this despair, I hope there will be an individual or group or groups which will want to compete with MLSE for sports entertainment in this city. It's the best thing for everybody including fans of MLSE's teams. Bell and TSN was outsmarted or one-upped by Rogers Sportsnet in the new NHL deal, and everybody who has a brain knows that NHL hockey is severely underserved in this market. Every sports economist in North America is unanimous in that Toronto should have another NHL team. The GTA is also the largest market in North America that does not have a 2nd Major League sized Arena. So there is plenty of oppurtunity for the Argos to get in on some other plan away from the myopic view of just being downtown under the thumb of TFC. Remember the York University plan, it was a good plan that would definitely be supported by different levels of government. In a perfect world, maybe no public money would be used, but if it's on University property for joint use by the University, then it's not wrong for public funds to be used, since the public (university) will get use by it. Downsview has potential, Woodbine racetrack area, Markham which has an area zoned for an arena and/or stadium could also be possibilities. There are football clubs, rugby clubs, many different other groups looking to get into the sports business...whether it's a group wanting to bring another NHL team or an Indo-Canadian group with financing looking to build a cricket facility, the Argos and any new or prospective owner should be open to all these ideas for partnership to build their own stadium.

[ArgoGabe22]

I want to follow the action on the field not hear Nathan Downer screaming in a mic trying to get my attention because of a pizza promotion during a timeout or a video replay. That can be a turnoff too.

When was the last time you went to a game? Downer was what 3-4 years ago now, plus the PA announcer never did promos. Also, when was the last time the box office had a one hour wait? lol

[Gill The Thrill]

When was the last time you went to a game? Downer was what 3-4 years ago now, plus the PA announcer never did promos. Also, when was the last time the box office had a one hour wait? lol

The Eastern Final where I thought I was in Hamilton based on the Yellow and black throughout the stadium. Nathan Downer was a couple years ago, not 3 or 4 I believe. Who really cares, you think I go to a game and remember who the PA or promotion guy is?? That's my point!

I've been to Argo games in the past where they've had walk up crowds with one window open, resulting in fans not getting into their seats by the 2nd quarter, then you wonder why attendance may be down.

[Neely2005]

The trend in the CFL is for team's not to try to pack the stadium with cheap tickets, but to sell fairly expensive tickets to their dedicated fanbase. These fans will pay the higher prices, but not for long if they find out that other fans in their section got free or 2-for-1 tickets. Season ticket holders need to be assured they are truly getting a discount off regular ticket prices and won't be undercut with ticket giveaways and promotions. Argo season ticket sales are also competing with TV, with fans knowing all the home games are on TSN.

There's no guarantee Argo tickets will cost more at BMO or their new stadium. They will need to guage the market and price tickets accordingly. The RedBlacks might be a good template to follow, with 16,500 season ticket holders (with a waiting list) and reportedly $3.00 for a can of beer (vs. $5.50 for the Riders). Of course this is impossible in Toronto, Rogers and MLSE just wouldn't allow it...but dare to dream.

I'd project the Argos to sellout their entire season in their new 25,000-seat stadium...or very close to it...at average CFL ticket prices. Then all this negative media speculation, mainly from Rogers employees, about the Argos folding or relocating is just so much wishfull thinking on their part.

True that there's no guarantee that prices will go up at BMO Field but the combination of less tickets to sell and MLSE potentiality owning the team makes it seem likely.

As to the concession prices at TD Place Stadium they were not what they were rumored to be. A regular sized can of domestic beer is $6, a tall boy of domestic is $8.50. The concessions are nothing special and the beer selection is pretty bad.

[doubleblue]

True that there's no guarantee that prices will go up at BMO Field but the combination of less tickets to sell and MLSE potentiality owning the team makes it seem likely.

As to the concession prices at TD Place Stadium they were not what they were rumored to be. A regular sized can of domestic beer is $6, a tall boy of domestic is $8.50. The concessions are nothing special and the beer selection is pretty bad.

Well I found everything to be a couple of dollars cheaper at TD place compared to the RC. People generally pay $10 for beer, including the tip, at the RC.

Long line ups at TD place could be helped if they had a separate booth for Beer and some guys carrying it up and down the isles like they do at RC. But just about everybody was buying something. I think that Jeff Hunt underestimated how much was needed for a sold out crowd. They were running out of everything but hot dogs during half time. At least in the section I was in. I started in a line up at the 3:00 minute warning and didn't get to the front of the line until 5:00 minutes into the third quarter. Then had to take what was left. But it was a learning curve, nobody seemed to upset. I believe the REDBLACK's get a good chunk of the concessions which must have totaled a half Million for that crowd. I don't think the Argos get anything at the Dome.

[rdavies]

Ottawa's new TD Place Stadium is still working out a few kinks

Tim Baines Ottawa Sun July 19, 2014

So much went right for the Ottawa RedBlacks during their first-ever home game, an 18-17 win over the Toronto Argos, at the stunning new TD Place Friday night.

But it's the things that went wrong that the folks at Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group are aiming to fix right away.

Some of the complaints included: ATMs weren't working, long lines at concessions (some of which ran out of food), plugged-up toilets, and a concession stand that had to be closed in the north side.

"These are growing pains," said OSEG CEO Bernie Ashe. "The kinds of issues we faced (Friday night) are things that in our business we try to make sure we address every single night.

"We're not there yet. We had fans that didn't have a positive experience as it relates to food and beverage lines and wait times for food. Those are things we're taking responsibility for and we're going to address."

It's not as if those in charge are going to turn away from complaints. They met for much of Saturday to deal with issues and hope to have a better experience by the time Ottawa Fury takes the field for an NASL game Sunday.

"We know there's more work to do," said Ashe. "We had some problems in the upper north. We had to close a concession stand because we had a blockage in a drainage pipe which was caused by construction debris. That's one of the consequences of rushing to the finish line. So by the time we play (Sunday) with the Fury, all the concession stands will be open in the upper north.

"The general problem with beer availability is we just couldn't move the beer around fast enough. There were big lineups in areas that were congested, elevators and so on, that we were trying to move the beer and some of the food around in. So we couldn't get them back into the concession stands to refill them.

"Our ATMs weren't working. They're just not hooked up yet. We're bringing in some temporary ATMs for the Fury game. By the next RedBlacks game, all the ATMs will be working."

Glitches aside, many fans seemed to have a wonderful experience, obviously helped by the home team kicking a last-minute field goal to put away the Argos.

"I'm really proud of our team," said Ashe. "From a fan expectation point of few, the feeling might be, 'Boy, this is a great party, everything better work really well.' We know there are a lot of areas we can to improve on. It's our job to do that. We take it very seriously. We're hard on ourselves about making sure we can get those things working better.

"The kind of problems we had were really strictly around the volume of people that were moving around the place. It was 24,000 happy people. We opened early. Everybody when they arrived went right to the concession stands at 5 o'clock. We sold a lot of beer and a lot of food between 5 and 6. By the time we reloaded, it was a challenge. We couldn't keep up with the demand. It's a good thing that people were having fun."

There seemed to be particularly long and frustrating holdups throughout the second quarter and well into halftime.

"We need to get more hawkers into the stands with the beers," said Ashe. "What was happening is the hawkers as they were getting to the top of the aisles, people were buying all the beer. They weren't even getting into the stands. We expect we'll already show big improvement (Sunday, with close to 15,000 fans expected to watch the soccer game against the New York Cosmos).

Early estimates suggest there were about 5,500 people that took advantage of the free shuttles and another 7,000 or so taking OC Transpo.

"Reports we got were that traffic moved really well getting to the venue," said Ashe. "We cleared people at about 45 minutes out of the shuttle lot area and about the same amount of time out of the OC Transpo area on Bank St. That's really good timing to take 24,000 people. As you saw, the game ended with a late field goal, so everybody left at the same time. For a first event, we're really happy with the transportation."

The win was a huge bonus for everyone.

"Having a win helps us with some of the issues we're here to talk about," said Ashe, who was on his way out of the stadium when Jasper Simmons intercepted a Ricky Ray pass to end the game. The CEO was heading to the shuttle area to check on how smoothly it was working.

"I saw it, I was looking over the top," said Ashe. "I watched the pickoff, then I was ahead of the crowd over the bridge."

All things considered, most fans at the game would say it was an awesome experience.

[Invader]

True that there's no guarantee that prices will go up at BMO Field but the combination of less tickets to sell and MLSE potentiality owning the team makes it seem likely.

As to the concession prices at TD Place Stadium they were not what they were rumored to be. A regular sized can of domestic beer is $6, a tall boy of domestic is $8.50. The concessions are nothing special and the beer selection is pretty bad.

I stand corrected on the price of beer at TD Place Stadium. I had read online comments about $3 beer there, which I guess was too good to be true.

The RedBlacks season ticket prices - per game (including taxes/fees): $25; $30; $35; $43; $57; $75; $102. They have reportedly have sold 16,500 seasons tickets.

In the Argos new 25,000-seat stadium, they might be wise to freeze ticket prices for their first season (like the Ticats are doing). The important thing is to pack the stadium, with lower priced tickets if necessary. They can always raise ticket prices if the demand is there.

Locating the new Argos stadium in Markham or Mississauga, for example, would draw many new fans from the surrounding area. Many people prefer to support their local sports teams rather than travel downtown. The problem is a suburban stadium location will be more difficult to travel to for fans from the other side of the GTA, compared to going downtown. There are 1 million people in Mississauga alone (similar to Saskatchewan), so there's a huge potential market right there (but let me guess, most of them don't like football?)

[ArgoRavi]

Well I found everything to be a couple of dollars cheaper at TD place compared to the RC. People generally pay $10 for beer, including the tip, at the RC.

Long line ups at TD place could be helped if they had a separate booth for Beer and some guys carrying it up and down the isles like they do at RC. But just about everybody was buying something. I think that Jeff Hunt underestimated how much was needed for a sold out crowd. They were running out of everything but hot dogs during half time. At least in the section I was in. I started in a line up at the 3:00 minute warning and didn't get to the front of the line until 5:00 minutes into the third quarter. Then had to take what was left. But it was a learning curve, nobody seemed to upset. I believe the REDBLACK's get a good chunk of the concessions which must have totaled a half Million for that crowd. I don't think the Argos get anything at the Dome.

You assume that you will get overcharged at a stadium; it just comes down to how much you are overcharged and I didn't think that TD Place was bad in that regard. Without a preseason game in which to work out the kinks, one could have predicted that there would be some problems but you are right that few seemed to mind too much. I wanted some of that Gabriel's pepperoni pizza at halftime - never had Gabriel's before - and they had run out but I wasn't terribly upset about it. However, I went back to TD Place for the Ottawa Fury soccer match today and they again ran out of pepperoni pizza at halftime which is much less acceptable, especially when there were 10k fewer fans at today's game than there were on Friday night. They still have a few bugs to iron out but the experience at that stadium is pretty darn good IMO.

[Neely2005]

The one thing that struck me as odd about the seats in the South stands is that the cup holders are attached to the seat in front of you and they're literally on the ground in front of you. It's only a matter of time before someone is hurt tripping over them.

[Argocister]

The one thing that struck me as odd about the seats in the South stands is that.........

I learned, sitting on the north side... That the south stands suck!

[Neely2005]

I learned, sitting on the north side... That the south stands suck!

Funny sitting on the South side I learned that the North side sucks. :-)

[Neely2005]

So last night on a Tuesday night against the worst draw in the CFL we had our biggest home crowd of the season so far.

Do the Argonauts draw better during the week instead of the weekend?