Drew Willy

[AngeloV]

I'm slow on the uptake sometimes...

But this just got me thinking... we could start a new thread... What would you take Willy over? A bag of footballs, a tackle dummy... no question. Cleo Lemon? Yes indeed. Where does it end?

What? You don't think they could have gotten Bo Levi Mitchell instead of Willy? After all, the mortgaged the farm, you know?

[OV Argo]

I'm slow on the uptake sometimes...

But this just got me thinking... we could start a new thread... What would you take Willy over? A bag of footballs, a tackle dummy... no question. Cleo Lemon? Yes indeed. Where does it end?

There are probably around 20 to 40 QBs - NCCA or CIS stars just graduating, or NFL cuts (how Willy or Lefevour arrived in the CFL) who could be signed for TC competition and one or several of them might be better than Drew Willy. You want to assume Willy is good enough to hand a roster spot too - good for you.

Smart teams have real, serious, un-biased competition for roster spots in positions of need. Dumb teams pencil-in mediocres already on their roster instead of having good competition. Ricky Ray is the only proven QB the Argos have on their roster, and he is maybe a question mark and an older player - much as I like him, if he is not around 98% healthy, especially in his passing arm, plus committed mentally to playing more, then time to move on from him, IMO.

I suppose if Ray is indeed healthy and the presumed starter - given his outstanding CFL career resume - then maybe Willy, Kilgore, Fajardo, + maybe Lefevour brought back would be good enough for TC competition for the back-up jobs; but not really IMO - I'd bring in at least one more (and i could care less about current GOB practice of only 4 or 5 QBs allowed for TC - big-deal GOB thinker). IF Ray is not a go = wayyyyyy more QB TC competition needed.

[AngeloV]

Smart teams have real, serious, un-biased competition for roster spots in positions of need. Dumb teams pencil-in mediocres already on their roster instead of having good competition. .

I don't know how often you go to TC practices, or how familiar you are with modern day CBA's OV, but it really is tough to have true TC competition with the lack of physicality allowed these days. Very difficult to get true game simulations. If a player turns heads during the few reps he gets in pre-season, or the mock game he then may steal a job from an incumbent. After that, salary cap reasons play a big role.

[RB957]

There are probably around 20 to 40 QBs - NCCA or CIS stars just graduating, or NFL cuts (how Willy or Lefevour arrived in the CFL) who could be signed for TC competition and one or several of them might be better than Drew Willy. You want to assume Willy is good enough to hand a roster spot too - good for you.

Smart teams have real, serious, un-biased competition for roster spots in positions of need. Dumb teams pencil-in mediocres already on their roster instead of having good competition. Ricky Ray is the only proven QB the Argos have on their roster, and he is maybe a question mark and an older player - much as I like him, if he is not around 98% healthy, especially in his passing arm, plus committed mentally to playing more, then time to move on from him, IMO.

I suppose if Ray is indeed healthy and the presumed starter - given his outstanding CFL career resume - then maybe Willy, Kilgore, Fajardo, + maybe Lefevour brought back would be good enough for TC competition for the back-up jobs; but not really IMO - I'd bring in at least one more (and i could care less about current GOB practice of only 4 or 5 QBs allowed for TC - big-deal GOB thinker). IF Ray is not a go = wayyyyyy more QB TC competition needed.

I have not posted nor do I believe that Drew Willy should be handed anything. I am simply not ready to write him off as some posters in this forum seem to be. Whether you like it or not, he has had his contract re-structured and is going to be at TC and will be given a shot. Up to him to prove he deserves a spot. However your point about having waaaaay more QB competition needs to be explored a little bit. I agree completely that if Ricky Ray is healthy and is ready and willing to compete again, then he is the #1 QB unless he gets beaten out of that job. Willy is going to be there at TC as well. As much as I love his competitiveness and spirit, I see no sense in bringing LeFevour back to TC. If the Argos need a QB with run potential they already have Cody Fajardo who is also five years younger and has greater potential. Do you bring back Logan Kilgore? If not, then you might have two QB spots for further evaluation. Having more than 5 QB's at training camp makes no sense because there just isn't enough time to get meaningful reps in. Full camp is only four weeks long and there are only two pre-season games for coaches to do all of their evaluations. CFL doesn't have mini-camps like the NFL does. If someone shows up at one of the free agent tryouts that looks amazing, then to bring that person into camp, probably means dropping someone off the existing roster. But whether you or anyone else likes it or not, for now Drew Willy is part of that mix.

[OV Argo]

I don't know how often you go to TC practices, or how familiar you are with modern day CBA's OV, but it really is tough to have true TC competition with the lack of physicality allowed these days. Very difficult to get true game simulations. If a player turns heads during the few reps he gets in pre-season, or the mock game he then may steal a job from an incumbent. After that, salary cap reasons play a big role.

Far as I know, there are no CFL TC limits on players by position. i.e. - if the team is in big need for competition or new blood at position x, then they can bring in as many players at that position as need be; and that means less at another position or two.

As far as coaches being able to assess talent - IF they can't get a good read on a new talent - thru scouting/film study, open try-out or Combine, on to mini camp, a couple of weeks of regular day to day TC - drills, scrimmage, skelly or whatever, plus an intra-squad game and 2 exhibition games, then, IMO they are not very smart football coaches.

[argolio]

Far as I know, there are no CFL TC limits on players by position. i.e. - if the team is in big need for competition or new blood at position x, then they can bring in as many players at that position as need be; and that means less at another position or two.

So how many QBs should the Argos bring to camp?

[AngeloV]

So how many QBs should the Argos bring to camp?

I say 40. That way they can each get about 2 reps a day.

[Jon Gonzo]

And won't you feel silly when Willy is the Eastern rep for MOP next season.

That sounds like a bet in the making.

[Jon Gonzo]

Regardless of anyone persons opinion on Drew Willy, there is no way on Gods green earth that anyone can dispute the importance of the Draft and that the odds of producing excellent Canadians are much, much better in the First Round.

Simply put, these guys gambled big time on this Quarterback. Now they'll have to be right on him because they won't survive the gauntlet again.

[Wobbler]

the odds of producing excellent Canadians are much, much better in the First Round.

Eh... I love the draft and I'm annoyed that the Willy trade made it less fun for me, but "much, much better" seems like an exaggeration.

I have no data to support this, but I think that the draft order vs. career success correlation is substantially weaker in the CFL than in other major NA professional sports. With substantially lower scouting/evaluation budgets, it would be surprising if it wasn't.

[Neely2005]

Ahh... I think i get it now.... you don't like Drew Willy. Gotcha. ;-)

Don't worry you'll come around once the season starts.

[Neely2005]

LMFAO!! You really think that point has been hammered home?

And in a Thread about Drew Willy of all places, who would have thought!

[Neely2005]

What? You don't think they could have gotten Bo Levi Mitchell instead of Willy? After all, the mortgaged the farm, you know?

So you think that this was a good trade then?

[Jon Gonzo]

Eh... I love the draft and I'm annoyed that the Willy trade made it less fun for me, but "much, much better" seems like an exaggeration.

I have no data to support this, but I think that the draft order vs. career success correlation is substantially weaker in the CFL than in other major NA professional sports. With substantially lower scouting/evaluation budgets, it would be surprising if it wasn't.

Why don't GM's trade their First Round Picks all of the time then?

Maybe you consider Barker and Milanovich are smarter than the rest? I certainly don't.

The odds ARE much, much better and I will prove it when I get the time.

You will, no doubt, agree that there is no disputing that good Canadians are a critical element for any success in the CFL.

This has been repeated and worked up by GM's in the CFL year after year after year. It's has gone beyond cliche to axiom; Jim Barker included.

What is the best way to get 'good Canadians?'

Your theory of CFL drafting inferiority doesn't hold water -- as that would be relative.

Simply put, some Teams have drafted better than others, and this will always be the case, as they have better programs.....and those teams usually find more success in the CFL, or any professional league for that matter.

I as a fan simply request that the Team I follow....has a competitive program.

You cannot build your team through Canadian Free Agents with a Salary Cap at 5.1 Million.

Indeed it is not the only method, but the Draft in any league is huge. GM's live and die by it for good reason.

[RB957]

Don't worry you'll come around once the season starts.

Well, we will see for sure. No doubt it will continue to be a topic of great discussion. And I will admit the first time he is under centre in a game situation, I might be watching with my eyes covered a bit!

Take care, my friend.

[AngeloV]

Regardless of anyone persons opinion on Drew Willy, there is no way on Gods green earth that anyone can dispute the importance of the Draft and that the odds of producing excellent Canadians are much, much better in the First Round.

Simply put, these guys gambled big time on this Quarterback. Now they'll have to be right on him because they won't survive the gauntlet again.

Nobody is disputing the importance of the draft. But history has shown that first round picks in the CFL aren't necessarily more impactful than any other round. IMO, Taylor Loffler was the most impactful player drafted in 2016. He was a 3rd round pick. The Argos gave up A PICK. Not all their picks.

[AngeloV]

So you think that this was a good trade then?

Not necessarily. I think it's much too early to determine if it was a good trade or a bad trade. Obviously if Willy never gets his confidence back, the trade will not be a good one. Time will tell. I have patience.,

[Jon Gonzo]

Nobody is disputing the importance of the draft. But history has shown that first round picks in the CFL aren't necessarily more impactful than any other round. IMO, Taylor Loffler was the most impactful player drafted in 2016. He was a 3rd round pick. The Argos gave up A PICK. Not all their picks.

They reduced their odds of getting an impact player for a player who is not a hands-down CFL starter. People can site all the First Round failures they want, but anyone could site more than double the amount of successes.

These successes are the lifeblood of a healthy CFL franchise.

It comes down to how much you value this player. If you think he is a bonefide CFL All Star, starting QB, then yes a 1st included in a bigger package is most certainly worth it.

I'm not convinced.

The Bombers would have ended up cutting this guy anyway. Trust me, they are laughing in Winnipeg. Does Toronto get to laugh back? Again, not convinced, and it wasn't worth the bending over backwards anyway.

Time should prove my theory. I hope I am wrong. Always happy to be wrong of course.

[ArgoGabe22]

The Alouettes gave up their 1st Rd pick for a completely unknown QB at the time, Vernon Adams. Never played a snap of pro football at the time of the trade.

[Will]

The Alouettes gave up their 1st Rd pick for a completely unknown QB at the time, Vernon Adams. Never played a snap in the CFL.

It doesn't make the Willy trade seem any less hurtful. Besides, Adams showed some promise at the end of the season.